REPROOF FROM THE PLATFORM

[Witness]

Billy, (Allen, Foreigner) , since you down vote my comment which shows Jesus as the light and life and destruction as coming from Satan, I wonder what you harbor in your heart.  

[TrueTomHarley]

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

So Tom, did you grant the GB leadership ?

Yes. When I signed on many years ago. They didn’t sneak up out of nowhere. Their role was known to me and everyone else from Day 1.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

My personal opinion is that the GB are not that 'Jew' .  So i haven't 'granted those persons that leadership'. 

That is why you are not a Witness. Everything is exactly as it should be. Given how you feel, you have done exactly as you should. 

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Maybe you should consider what exactly a person is taught when they start having a 'Bible study' with JW's.

Yes. Every Witness takes about a year to do that, studying and trying things on for size. Throughout, they are in their familiar home environment and routine. Perhaps 5% of their time is spent in unfamiliar surroundings. 

College is far more “manipulative” than anything with a Witness connection. Students are typically separated 24/7 from their former stabilizing routine, environment, and family—a classic tool of those who would brainwash. Plus, if you study with Jehovah’s Witnesses, you know full well that you are going off the grid—the very opposite of what brainwashers do. Going to college, on the other hand, is no more controversial than seeking good healthcare.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Many of the books that have been used as study books are now long gone and would cause embarrassment to 'modern day' JW's. The GB hide this by saying they have 'new light'.  

You keep playing this as though it were your trump card, the coup de grace—as though it was something meant to be hidden. They are very open about it. They have called it “tacking.” As you say, they have called it “new light.” Don’t you think that means there used to be “old light?”

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

So whereas you may like to say I have mental illness and am infantile

Not usually. Maybe never. I said that your last bit of reasoning was infantile. I said that because it was. I didn’t say you were. 

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Do you really think it is the aim of most on here to totally destroy the JW Org  ?

Not totally, no. No one here, to my knowledge, is calling for anyone’s execution. It is what they stand for that is the target. Everyone knows that. 

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Will you ever say on here, “you know, you’ve raise a good point there.” 

Not everything that you say is silly. I have acknowledged that some points you have raised are valid.  Not always to your face, because you are such a pit bull. But I have put them in other writings.

[JOHN BUTLER]

So Tom, did you grant the GB leadership ?

Yes. When I signed on many years ago. They didn’t sneak up out of nowhere. Their role was known to me and everyone else from Day 1.

Well I've said many times that it is difficult to know truth from guesswork, but if I've read up on the history correctly there wasn't actually a 'Governing Body' until 1971.  Prior to this it seems it was a president and vice-president.  I do know that I was never told about a GB in the late 60's. 

Quote. 'Don’t you think that means there used to be “old light?” ' No I think it means there were old lies and now there are new lies. 

[TrueTomHarley]

52 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Quomodo enim tu loqueris de vero Deo?

I gave an upvote here, and everyone knows that I am stingy with them. I don’t think I have ever given a downvote.

My upvote is conditional. I am assuming that little bit of Latin does not translate into “TrueTom is a fink.”

[TrueTomHarley]

3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

So whereas you may like to say I have mental illness and am iinfantile

Having dispensed with the second part of this, let me go to the first.

I did not say that you were mentally ill. I have said that any mental health professional would say that the type of thinking that you were displaying at the moment (most typically “all or nothing” thinking) is unhealthy. That is not the same thing.

You also have to realize that I do not regard mentally ill as a pejorative label, and more than I would regard diabetic as one.

[JOHN BUTLER]

Now you did say this however ( @TrueTomHarley )  Quote  "because you are such a pit bull."

So I'm not always silly and I'm not exactly mentally ill, but I am a bit of a dog then  .. 

[TrueTomHarley]

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

So I'm not always silly and I'm not exactly mentally ill, but I am a bit of a dog then  

 Even Jesus used an expression for dogs, softening it to “little dogs”—puppies. That’s probably what I had in mind.

[JW Insider]

17 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

. . . if I've read up on the history correctly there wasn't actually a 'Governing Body' until 1971.  Prior to this it seems it was a president and vice-president.  I do know that I was never told about a GB in the late 60's.

As @BillyTheKid46 has pointed out, the term "governing body" had already been used prior to 1971, and it was usually used in the sense that certain types of corporations used the term. In fact, for the Watchtower Society it was primarily used to refer to the "legal" leadership of Jehovah's Witnesses through the legal entity of the Society itself.

This is why there was a difference in the way the term was used in the 1960's and even right up until 1970, the year before the change in meaning that the Watchtower Society gave to this term. For example, the 1970 Yearbook said very clearly:

*** yb70 p. 65 1970 Yearbook of Jehovah’s Witnesses ***
So really the governing body of Jehovah’s witnesses is the board of directors of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, all of whom are dedicated to Jehovah God and anointed by his holy spirit.

Technically, then it was the 7 members of the board of directors, not merely the President and Vice-President of the Pennsylvania corporation. In 1942, the Vice President, and therefore a member of the governing body was Hayden C Covington, a Watchtower Society attorney who claimed not to be one of the anointed. (He had also only been a JW for 5 years when he became VP.) In fact, a few years later the rule was changed so that only anointed persons could be on the board of directors, and Covington had to resign his position as Vice President and that position was handed over to Frederick W Franz. After 2001, members of the board of directors no longer need to claim to be one of the anointed, and most of them since 2001 have not claimed to be of the anointed.

The following (about Hayden Covington) is in small print because part of it's based on what was considered to be common knowledge, and part of it is based on the claims of a couple of Bethelites I have known, both still alive. And one is also a relative of the brother who played a key part in one of the incidents described:

^{Just a little bit of inside information on Covington is that he was a heavy drinker, and thought to be an alcoholic, and eventually dismissed and disfellowshipped after some run-ins with President Knorr. This is in the Wikipedia article, but what's not there is that just before his death he was working on a tell-all that was supposed to expose a lot of wrongdoings and embarrass Knorr and others. (I heard one Witness claim that it was supposed to "bring down the Watchtower.") The person who takes credit for talking him out of it says it was a hard-won battle and he was only convinced after a lot of begging and pleading, including more pleading from family members. Just after that incident, over the next few months in fact, he was reinstated, claimed to be of the anointed, and died. I'm not even sure he even got a chance to partake at the Memorial. But you can still find the funeral talk that Colin Quackenbush gave, posted somewhere on this forum. You can get a small sense of Covington's problems from the funeral talk, where Quackenbush almost has to apologize for giving it, but it's a good talk. Quackenbush himself was the Awake! magazine editor, who also got kicked out of Bethel after a run-in with Knorr, but who arrived back at Bethel upon Knorr's death in 1977.} 

I should add that I don't think any of us should have a problem with an international organization of any kind having a governing body. It just means that it is organized to be guided by a committee or board instead of a "dictatorship" of one or two persons. That's a good thing. And the arrangement with GB helpers is even better, in my opinion.

In addition to just mentioning the board of directors as the governing body prior to the 1971 change, it was also used as a way to refer to the entire Watch Tower Society.

*** w50 8/15 p. 251 par. 8 Answering the Foes of His Government ***
The Watch Tower Bible & Tract Society, with main offices in Brooklyn, New York, acts advisorily as the governing body and servant of Jehovah’s witnesses in all lands. So what is true of Jehovah’s witnesses in America must be true of them throughout the earth.

*** w50 1/1 p. 10 par. 2 Reviewing the Past Year’s Work World-wide ***
The Watch Tower Bible & Tract Society, the governing body of Jehovah’s witnesses, has pointed out through its publications that the kingdom of heaven was established in 1914

*** w52 9/15 p. 567 par. 7 Loyalty the Test ***
After being fed and directed through the faithful legal governing body, the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, for thirty years, many said, “Jehovah is also dealing through other agencies.” Thus they could advance their own selfish interests.

Of course, the Watch Tower Society, although considered to be the legal entity by which to lead and govern all Jehovah's Witnesses earth-wide, was still considered to be the near equivalent of the old council at Jerusalem where decisions were made with respect to the rules for the gentile converts, etc. Also, Paul is considered to have been included in the governing body since he told Timothy how to make appointments of overseers and servants. So this modern board of directors was considered to be something like a modern fulfillment of the council of apostles and older men at Jerusalem, and the extension of that authority as given to Paul.

*** w52 5/1 pp. 281-282 God’s Way of Financing His Work ***
Having received free, they gave free. Their unselfish course influenced others to show love, so that many early Christians sold all their possessions and turned over the proceeds to the governing body for them to use as they saw best for the advancement of the true worship and the benefit of the Christian community in general.

So even when the governing body, technically and legally meant something else, it was still very similarly applied as an adaption of the original governing body (apostolic council) at Jerusalem. Over the years, it was tied closer and closer to the faithful and discreet slave.

*** w52 11/15 p. 683 Timothy, the Youthful Minister ***
Because of Timothy’s devotion to Jehovah God and Christ Jesus, the apostle Paul, under the guiding influence of the holy spirit, appointed Timothy to serve as an agent of the governing body of the Christian congregation in his day; being authorized to appoint mature men as overseers and assistants in the various Christian congregations. (1 Tim. 1:3; 3:1-15, NW) In this capacity Timothy pictured or represented the instrument that Jehovah God is using today, the Society of footstep followers of Christ Jesus, which likewise appoints servants in the Christian congregation in keeping with Jesus’ promise that he would set his faithful and discreet slave over all his belongings.—Matt. 24:45, NW.

 

 

[Anna]

18 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

as she is viewing both sides,

I'm just trying to be fair, and I believe the truth is the truth and a lie is a lie no matter who says it.

[Srecko Sostar]

13 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Therefore, just like God intended to have sinless humans on earth, so too is his intention to have faithful followers on earth. If it wasn’t the case, what you are saying, God is wasting his time.

 

I am not even sure how terminology, word - sin, sinless - existed in those time. Why? Because Bible reports; God see all this/that he has created was - GOOD. God has intention to have Followers? This is also terminology that was coined later.

I do not know more about god's "Intentions" out of those, except what is described in the first few words of Genesis.

13 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Why did Jesus enter a temple?

Because people of his time mostly living in solid houses and went to churches made of stones. :))) Temple in Jerusalem was standing there for few hundreds years already. But most of HIS sermons was in open-air. He has not showed "intentions" to building churches for His "new/modified religious movement". 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

3 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

When you state a lie, then who is personally judging you as you would others with that philosophy?

What is the context of that question?  Can you please rephrase?

And who, specifically are you addressing?

[Srecko Sostar]

11 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Quomodo enim tu loqueris de vero Deo?

Who knows the divine secrets except God himself ?