Ten men out of ... the nations ... will take firm hold of the robe of a Jewish man

[Srecko Sostar]

10 hours ago, JW Insider said:

They tell the Jew: “We will go with you people, for we have heard that God is with you people.”

I found this interesting: They heard. They heard, question is From Whom? Hear and say? 

5 hours ago, JW Insider said:

So, while the "Jew" represents the anointed class, we are subtly reminded that the anointed class is represented by the Governing Body, considered to be the core representatives of "Christ's brothers."

This same "Jew" aka GB are those who made self claim about their appointed position in 1919 and they told this to the people who joined them in this belief and in other various beliefs.

In Parallel time/moment this "joined" people (later called great crowed) went to the streets to actively inform other people, worldly people and told them how they know this particular "Jews" who are baked by god himself and ask them to join in Proclamation about this.

Well, impetus about WHO are JEWS, was made/generated by "self" appointed Bible Students in 1919. The Word; "God is with you" is not came by god's revelation to worldly people who later join the organization. No, the words came from Not Inspired, Doctrinal and Instructional Error Prone source.    

[JOHN BUTLER]

@JW Insider  Wow, so much to try to answer. 

However I'm glad you mentioned this bit :  Others may have mental or emotional problems 

The GB / Writing department actually wrote this. AND NOW we see people such a s TTH and BtK using it.

Anyone that disagrees with the GB / JW Org are seen as having mental or emotional problems.  Do you honestly think the GB / Writing dept' didn't know that this would become the norm' ? This is how low they have sunken. 

Next :- The GB / Org says about the Anointed. 

 They know that Jehovah does not necessarily give anointed ones more holy spirit than he gives his other servants. And they do not feel that they can understand Bible truths more deeply than anyone else.

What utter nonsense. What the GB are really saying here is that THEY do not understand the Bible because THEY do not have the Holy Spirit from God. 

There would be NO POINT in following the JEW if the JEW didn't know the right direction. If others that are not Anointed know and understand as much or even more about God's word, and it the same others were receiving as much or more Holy Spirit from God then why would those others want to go in the wrong direction just to follow So called anointed that haven't got a clue ? Do you see how your GB / Writing department make themselves look so stupid ? 

The Watchtower / GB / JW Org put in such a very poor argument for the GB being superior to the other Anointed. 

As I think you mentioned (well you did write a lot  ) the 'Faithful and discreet slave class' are the complete number of Anointed here on Earth at this time, BUT in my opinion, the GB have exalted themselves above the other Anointed still on earth. The scripture at Luke 14 v11 'For everyone that exalts himself will be humbled ...'  I think your GB are in for a big fall.

Again your GB / Writing dept write :- 

Although anointed ones feel that it is an honor to be invited to go to heaven, they do not expect others to treat them in a special way. ...

Um, the GB, DO expect others to treat them in a special way, because the GB expect every JW to follow them and to believe their every word. 

Quote you :  the Governing Body had already pointed to themselves as the ones  representing the faithful slave. 

*** ws11 7/15 p. 24 par. 9 Have You Entered Into God’s Rest? ***
They show us that Jehovah is using the faithful and discreet slave to teach us the truth. Sometimes the Governing Body, who represents the faithful and discreet slave, reviews how we understand certain truths.

Don't really need much more proof positive that the GB are acting as dictators here. Telling congregants not to make contact with others of the Anointed. Telling the others of the Anointed not to make contact with each other. Telling all congregants that only they, the GB, have the right to give instruction to the JW Org and all its members. 

Sorry I have to go to an auction now to collect a few things I've won. Talk again later, John 

 

 

[JW Insider]

17 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

I found this interesting: They heard. They heard, question is From Whom? Hear and say? 

There was evidently no voice booming from heaven in the original context. I get the sense that it was by reputation. Not even that the nation of Israel was out there trying to make proselytes (converts) but that it was by reputation people were hearing good things about Israel.

It was based on a common promise that is found many times in the prophetic books: if the Israelites continue to forsake their spiritual heritage (temple, law, etc) then they will be punished, but if they continue in the ways of Jehovah's law, they will be blessed. In this case, blessed so much that surrounding nations will hear that God is with them, and people from those nations will want to become Israelites, too.

We know that the original context is that Jehovah is "jealous" or "zealous" to have his name and reputation known through his people from Zion (Jerusalem) again. And even though he has punished Judah and Israel for sins, he does not regret it. But now is time for a fresh start, and if they handle it right this time, their blessings will be so great as to attract other nations, too.

In fact, in the next chapter (Zech 9) the examples were to start with "the eyes of man" in Syrian cities to the north, even reaching to Damascus, then 120 miles north of Damascus (Hamath) and even on to Phoenician cities of Tyre and Sidon. 

In some limited sense this probably happened as Jews scattered by Babylon 70 years earlier, and Israelites scattered by Assyria nearly 200 years earlier, had settled into these nations all around, but would now want to firmly take hold of those blessings upon true Jews in Jerusalem. Persons they had married, and even proselytes and foreigners would want to join them too. Over the next few hundred years, by the time of Herod and Jesus, in fact, we know of many Jewish proselytes, and strong support of Judaism throughout all parts of the Roman Empire. The LXX from Egypt became a well-read "OT" Bible that was known across the empire. Even a couple of Caesars were friends of Herod, and some wives of prominent Roman leaders took a strong interest in the religion Judaism. Ancient synagogues have been found with inscribed names of Roman patrons who would have provided much of the funding for these synagogues.

[JW Insider]

20 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

However I'm glad you mentioned this bit :  Others may have mental or emotional problems 

The GB / Writing department actually wrote this. AND NOW we see people such a s TTH and BtK using it.

The GB use the argument that many are fed by the hands of a few --and only 8 "NT" Bible writers fed the entire 1st century congregations. And since you can't practically follow many different anointed persons, at least there is a practical way to follow a few. One of the points is that you can't necessarily trust that just any person who claims to be anointed is truly anointed. There really are many claimants that most Witnesses would consider to be just people with mental or emotional problems. Most of us have known such persons in our local congregations. I think this is already a 'given' that other Witnesses realize and the GB are acknowledging it. Of course, it's clear that the GB use this fact with the purpose of adding evidence that only a few persons can really be trusted to represent the anointed. This should lead us to agree with them that Jesus trusts the faithful slave [Governing Body] and therefore we should, too.

30 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Anyone that disagrees with the GB / JW Org are seen as having mental or emotional problems.  Do you honestly think the GB / Writing dept' didn't know that this would become the norm' ? This is how low they have sunken.

This is a product, unfortunately, of being so absolutely sure one has the truth. Anyone who would deviate from obvious, rational truth must have a deviant mind. They'd have to be crazy to give up on all the truth based on a few mistakes here and there. Anyone who does so is some kind of apostate, like a dog returning to his vomit, and must be "mentally diseased."

I agree that this is a dangerous result of the reminder (acknowledgment) that SOME really do have mental or emotional problems, and we should be wary of giving anything they say too much importance. You will notice that whenever I say something that differs from the GB's current teachings in the WT, that someone like BTK will surely be around to try to discredit it so that no one gives it too much importance.

(I think this is actually a safeguard so that no one takes only my own opinions and experiences as something to follow without questioning them first. I welcome the push back, especially when it can help me to further endeavor to make sure of all things.)

41 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

They know that Jehovah does not necessarily give anointed ones more holy spirit than he gives his other servants. And they do not feel that they can understand Bible truths more deeply than anyone else.

You say that this is an admission by the GB that they don't really have holy spirit to understand the Bible. It's probably more of a caution not to give just anyone a 'pass.' We shouldn't quote someone who says they are anointed on some doctrinal point, just because we heard it from an 'anointed' person. But the word "necessarily" probably also reminds us that some anointed might get more holy spirit than others, a possible way of saying that we could expect the GB to get more holy spirit to understand Bible truths whenever Jehovah deems it necessary.

45 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Do you see how your GB / Writing department make themselves look so stupid ? 

I don't think they are saying they don't have a clue. I think they are actually (overall) saying to trust them for now, even though things can still become better and clearer, but definitely don't just automatically trust any person claiming to be anointed who disagrees with us. This is practical advice for unity. It might not ALWAYS be the correct advice in all circumstances, but elsewhere they have already admitted that not all their advice will turn out to be correct or Biblical. But then again, what religion can you think of where people are told to just follow anyone who claims authority of some kind?

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

As I think you mentioned (well you did write a lot  ) the 'Faithful and discreet slave class' are the complete number of Anointed here on Earth at this time, BUT in my opinion, the GB have exalted themselves above the other Anointed still on earth.

I probably wasn't clear. The Watchtower considered the 'faithful and discreet slave' to be the complete number of anointed here on the earth (from about 1879 to 1897, and then again from about 1927 to 2011). But recently it has become a small, identifiable group of persons we can know individually by name: the members of the Governing Body. (Between 1897 and 1927 it was taught to be one person we could know individually by name: Charles T. Russell.)

[JOHN BUTLER]

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I probably wasn't clear. The Watchtower considered the 'faithful and discreet slave' to be the complete number of anointed here on the earth (from about 1879 to 1897, and then again from about 1927 to 2011). But recently it has become a small, identifiable group of persons we can know individually by name: the members of the Governing Body. (Between 1897 and 1927 it was taught to be one person we could know individually by name: Charles T. Russell.)

What a complete contradiction in full. 

It just proves to anyone that has common sense that the GB have exalted themselves. And it is so funny that this 'organisation' that you seem to trust sooooo much, keeps changing its mind on things of scripture. 

BTK seems to think that the GB always follow scripture, yet it can be clearly seen that the GB are always changing the meanings of the scriptures they use. This is only one example.

Quote : The GB use the argument that many are fed by the hands of a few --and only 8 "NT" Bible writers fed the entire 1st century congregations. Um, it seems you are saying that just because only 8 men wrote the NT writings, that only those 8 men 'fed the entire 1st century congregations. Did the others retire then or go on holiday?

There were at least 13 Apostles, because Judas was replaced, and then Paul was given direct instruction form Christ. Are you saying that the rest of these men did not feed the 1st century congregations ?  Just because they were not used to write what we have now as scripture does not mean they did not feed the congregations at that time. I would presume much more was done by word of mouth than in writing.  

However i can see here in your words that you are just a spokesperson for the GB /JW Org / W/t, and that you do not consider any other possibilities. I'm glad I left the 'Org' so that I have opened my mind to consider all things. I do admit that I've not found any real answers but that does not mean i would blindly follow '8 men'. 8 men that have no proof whatsoever that they have any authority from God or Jesus Christ. 

 

[Srecko Sostar]

5 hours ago, JW Insider said:

There was evidently no voice booming from heaven in the original context. I get the sense that it was by reputation. Not even that the nation of Israel was out there trying to make proselytes (converts) but that it was by reputation people were hearing good things about Israel.

Voice from heaven? I do not think even the greatest believer among JW would expect a voice from heaven. :)) It is out of sense to even have a little thought/idea about such possibility. Of, course some of WT magazine editors and members maybe have such idea, and send spiritual vibrations to readers, how JHVH somehow whispering  to writers of WT publication, what to put in columns. 

Reputation. That is of course very important. Jericho citizens also heard about Israel reputation. How they are successful warriors and destroying all on their way. In this case fear about own life was motivated non-Jew tribes to take military reputation of Israel in consideration. 

Reputation of modern Congregation in this last two century, showed some results that worldly people take as important. On other hand,  WTJWORG preoccupation about own reputation bring on light many issues of not transparency and even hiding of things that is bad.

PR through publishers and publication want to show only "bright side" of WT Organizations/Corporations and JW religion. Not talking openly about "taboo issues" and negativity of Instructional and Doctrinal rules, beliefs not bring to positive reputation.  

[JOHN BUTLER]

Quote "as though it really matters to God". BtK as if your opinion really matters to us. 

You are a pretend JW that has no idea of God's word and no idea of truth. 

Quote "Witness, seems to think only the anointed are the Body of Christ"...  And I agree with him. The Anointed are both the Body and the Bride of Christ. Those 144,000 that go to heaven to be there with Christ. The Body of Christ will be complete in Heaven with Jesus Christ himself. 

Why do you puff yourself up by thinking you are part of that Body ? 

Jesus spoke of the earthly class as 'other sheep that are not of this fold'.

I presume your body is only in one place ?  Would you divide your body and put it in different places ?  Although at this time the Body of Christ is not all in heaven, it will be when God chooses to bring the Judgement. 

I don't think you are impressing anyone on here BtK. You are just trying to bully people and make yourself look important. The real BtK is dead physically, you BtK are dead spiritually. 

 

 

[JOHN BUTLER]

Seems to me, Butler has me confused with “witness” that pretends to be anointed.   

Seems to me Kid has no idea what he is on about. Who could confuse that kid with anyone else. The Kid is a one of a kind loony. 

“you can’t fix stupid”. Well you should know Kid, you have to live with yourself being like that all the time. 

In the Greek Scriptures it is basically Anointed men speaking to Anointed men and women when it comes to instruction and direction.  Those of that era / time were of the heavenly calling. 

Jesus said  “And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those too I must bring in, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.

other sheep, those too I must bring, they will listen to my voice

The earthly class are the 'Other sheep', that Jesus 'must bring', and Jesus was talking in future tense, 'They will listen to my voice'. 

And Jesus says these other sheep (the earthly class) are not of this fold, meaning not of the heavenly calling. 

Seems easy enough to me, but then I'm not blinded by the Devil / GB / JW org. 

[Witness]

22 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I hadn't realized it if "Witness" had also repeatedly referenced this. 

I think, maybe once, when speaking to John about it.  

[Witness]

9 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

What is your understanding of the anointed remnant, and the other sheep? Witness, seems to think only the anointed are the Body of Christ.

So has the Watchtower, up until now.  https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200021176

ANOINTED CHRISTIANS

(Also called 144,000; Anointed; Body of Christ; Bride of Christ; Chosen Ones; Elect; Holy Nation; Israel of God; Kingdom Class; Little Flock; New Creation; New Nation; Royal House; Royal Priesthood; Sanctuary Class; Sons of Levi; Spirit Begotten; Spiritual Israel; Spiritual Sons)

Teachings always change; lies change into more lies, even the truth gradually changes into a lie.  Today's "Body of Christ" taught by the Watchtower, includes every JW.  I only know this from hearing it on a JW broadcast about building a convention center, I believe.  The elder used the term "Body of Christ" in reference to all JWs.   

Rev 16:13,14

 

 

[Witness]

@BillyTheKid46   You believe I'm "pretending" to be an anointed one.  Yet, you fully swallow whatever the GB tells you about themselves.  I'm sure this is because I refuse to obey them and their lies; lies not only about themselves, but about applying the teachings of Christ.  Remember when you said just recently, "I bow down to no man"?  Well, so also I do not bow down to any man; including any who desire to control my spirituality.  That is between me and Christ; not 8 men who feel they have been given authority over anointed individuals, or ANY individual.  And many of these people want to serve the Father and Jesus Christ.  It matters not if you believe that I am pretending.  I answer only to Christ, who is my Head.  Eph 5:23

Then the high priest rose up, and all those who were with him (which is the sect of the Sadducees), and they were filled with indignation, 18 and laid their hands on the apostles and put them in the common prison. 19 But at night an angel of the Lord opened the prison doors and brought them out, and said, 20 “Go, stand in the temple and speak to the people all the words of this life.”

21 And when they heard that, they entered the temple early in the morning and taught. But the high priest and those with him came and called the council together, with all the elders of the children of Israel, and sent to the prison to have them brought.

But when the officers came and did not find them in the prison, they returned and reported, 23 saying, “Indeed we found the prison shut securely, and the guards standing outside before the doors; but when we opened them, we found no one inside!” 24 Now when the high priest, the captain of the temple, and the chief priests heard these things, they wondered what the outcome would be. 25 So one came and told them, saying, “Look, the men whom you put in prison are standing in the temple and teaching the people!”

Then the captain went with the officers and brought them without violence, for they feared the people, lest they should be stoned. 27 And when they had brought them, they set them before the council. And the high priest asked them, 28 saying, “Did we not strictly command you not to teach in this name? And look, you have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this Man’s blood on us!”

29 But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: “We ought to obey God rather than men.  Acts 5:17-29

You will find a similar scenario happen when an anointed one teaches in the name of Christ Jesus, and not in the name of an organization.  Your "high priests" condemn any preaching that doesn't include "organization".  They cannot handle "New Jerusalem" within the anointed ones,  (1 Cor 3:16,17) to be filled with doctrine other than their own.   Rev 13:16,17

I am very grateful that I have been released from WT's prison of false authority.  Col 2:8