Ten men out of ... the nations ... will take firm hold of the robe of a Jewish man

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

9 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

I won't correct the comma after Witness as a grammatical error. Seems James has a thing about spelling and grammar and being obtuse about it, with certain people.

There was a strong odor,  where I could smell BillytheKids46's mother cooking in the kitchen.

There was a strong odor where I could smell,  BillytheKids46's mother cooking in the kitchen.

There,  was a strong odor where I could smell BillytheKids46's mother,  cooking in the kitchen.

Where you put commas are important!

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

10 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

I guess that’s the reason John continues. As Ron White once said, “you can’t fix stupid”. There’s not a pill you can take, there’s not a class you can attend, stupid is forever. 😉

You can't fix stupid ... even with Duct Tape ... BUT WITH DUCT TAPE YOU CAN MUFFLE THE SOUND !

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

My mother was cooked in a crematorium, 1200 degrees for three hours.

She made an ash out of herself!

Lighten up Billy ... you may even regain your sanity!  You will certainly be a lot happier, and more pleasant company!

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

... forget what I said 'bout regaining your sanity, Billy.

Would I be an apostate if I told you that the original Paradise was the Garden of Eatin', and what made it a Paradise is that they had pizza delivery?

[JW Insider]

13 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

What is your understanding of the anointed remnant, and the other sheep? Witness, seems to think only the anointed are the Body of Christ.

Note that the following rather long post is my own opinion of what I believe the Bible is saying about the "anointed" and the "other sheep," and for that matter the "great crowd" and the "heavenly hope" and the "earthly hope." I didn't put the entire explanation here about how and why this is what I believe the Bible is teaching because it would be much too long. But if you have questions about it, perhaps I can at least offer additional information on the questions.

I understand that the term "anointed remnant" refers to all of the truly anointed living on earth at any given time, and that this will be so up until the time when the last of the anointed on earth is taken to their heavenly reward either through resurrection or their "harpazo" up until the time of the final judgment associated with Armageddon. Therefore, at the current time, the anointed remnant refers to all of the truly anointed still living anywhere on the earth at this particular time.

I believe that the anointed are included in the "little sheep" that Peter was told to feed, when Jesus told him to "feed my little sheep." I believe that Jesus is the Governing One who will shepherd his people Israel, especially this flock of sheep called spiritual Israel, soon to be the completed "Body of Christ" with the Governing One as the only Head and Leader. (Matt 2:6)

I believe that when Jesus separates the sheep from the goats he is separating the anointed sheep as well as other sheep who don't identify themselves as anointed. (Matt 25:32)

I believe there is both a new heaven and a new earth, and the kingdom we pray for involves God's will being done both in heaven and on earth, and Jesus said that the meek would inherit the earth. Therefore it should be natural that many persons (like myself) who read these promises about a future paradise "new earth" will desire to live on that new earth, not desirous of being rulers in heaven, and that this desire will be granted to many millions, even billions of people, who are also sheep-like. 

I believe the anointed sheep and a great crowd other sheep are therefore part of the same "one flock," under the governorship of the same one chief shepherd, with elders/overseers acting as 'undershepherds' or 'helping shepherds.'

• (Hebrews 13:20) . . .Now may the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep, our Lord Jesus, with the blood of an everlasting covenant,
• (1 Peter 2:25) . . .For you were like sheep going astray, but now you have returned to the shepherd and overseer of your souls.
• (1 Peter 5:2-4) 2 Shepherd the flock of God under your care, serving as overseers, not under compulsion, but willingly before God; not for love of dishonest gain, but eagerly; 3 not lording it over those who are God’s inheritance, but becoming examples to the flock. 4 And when the chief shepherd has been made manifest, you will receive the unfading crown of glory.
• (Revelation 7:16, 17) 16 They will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down on them nor any scorching heat, 17 because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them and will guide them to springs of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.”

I'm thinking that you may have asked the question about "other sheep" because I have previously said that I believe John 10:16 refers to other "gentile" sheep. These gentiles were not of the fold that Jesus and his disciples preached to while Jesus was alive on earth. We know that Jesus was only sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, but would soon bring in sheep from the nations who were not of that fold. They would be brought into the same flock.

• (Matthew 10:5, 6) 5 These 12 Jesus sent out, giving them these instructions: “Do not go off into the road of the nations, and do not enter any Sa·marʹi·tan city; 6 but instead, go continually to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
• (Matthew 15:24) 24 He answered: “I was not sent to anyone except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
• (Acts 13:43-46) . . .So after the synagogue assembly was dismissed, many of the Jews and the proselytes who worshipped God followed Paul and Barʹna·bas, who, as they spoke to them, urged them to remain in the undeserved kindness of God. . . .  45 When the [other] Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy . . .  46 Then Paul and Barʹna·bas boldly said to them: “It was necessary for the word of God to be spoken first to you. Since you are rejecting it and do not judge yourselves worthy of everlasting life, look! we turn to the nations.
• (Romans 15:8-16) 8 For I tell you that Christ became a minister of those who are circumcised in behalf of God’s truthfulness, so as to verify the promises He made to their forefathers, 9 and that the nations might glorify God for his mercy. . . . 15 However, I have written to you more outspokenly on some points, so as to give you another reminder, because of the undeserved kindness given to me from God 16 for me to be a public servant of Christ Jesus to the nations.. . .

• (Ephesians 2:11-19) . . .Therefore, remember that at one time you, people of the nations by fleshly descent, were the ones called “uncircumcision” by those called “circumcision,” which is made in the flesh by human hands. 12 At that time you were without Christ, alienated from the state of Israel, strangers to the covenants of the promise; you had no hope and were without God in the world. 13 But now in union with Christ Jesus, you who were once far off have come to be near by the blood of the Christ. 14 For he is our peace, the one who made the two groups one and destroyed the wall in between that fenced them off. 15 By means of his flesh he abolished the enmity, the Law of commandments consisting in decrees, in order to make the two groups in union with himself into one new man and to make peace, 16 and to reconcile fully both peoples in one body to God through the torture stake, because he had killed off the enmity by means of himself. 17 And he came and declared the good news of peace to you who were far off, and peace to those near, 18 because through him we, both peoples, have free access to the Father by one spirit. 19 So you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but you are fellow citizens of the holy ones and are members of the household of God,

   

This is a belief where you will probably see huge differences between my own view and the Watchtower view. And yet, I still think the Watchtower provides a correct view of the an earthly hope and a heavenly hope. It's just that I don't find that particular difference supported in the same verses that the Watchtower has traditionally used to make this indentification and distinction.

I should add, however, that I also believe that the "great crowd" mentioned in Revelation 7 and 19 is actually the same great crowd of people from the nations Jesus referred to as "other sheep" in John 10:16.  But these are not specifically those with an earthly hope distinguished from those with a heavenly hope. In fact, the great crowd mentioned in Revelation are referred to as "in heaven" and this idea is further indicated in several ways. These ones come out of the great tribulation to their heavenly reward in order to join the full number who had come out of Israel. After all, the "great crowd" in Revelation are spoken of as "in heaven" and are actually rendering sacred service in the inner sanctuary of the temple, and therefore they are spoken of as seeing God's face, having God's tent over them, being guided to fountains of waters of life, and they will rule as kings forever and ever, and everyone who is guided to fountains of waters of life is a conqueror who inherits these things and is called to be "sons of God."

• (Revelation 7:14-17) . . . they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 That is why they are before the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them. 16 They will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down upon them nor any scorching heat, 17 because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them, and will guide them to fountains of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.”

• (Revelation 22:3-5) 3 And no more will there be any curse. But the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in [the city], and his slaves will render him sacred service; 4 and they will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5 Also, night will be no more, and they have no need of lamplight nor [do they have] sunlight, because Jehovah God will shed light upon them, and they will rule as kings forever and ever.

• (Revelation 19:1) . . .After this I heard what seemed to be a loud voice of a great crowd in heaven. They said: “Praise Jah! The salvation and the glory and the power belong to our God,

• (Revelation 7:9, 10) . . .After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. 10 And they keep shouting with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.”

• (Revelation 19:6-8) . . .And I heard what sounded like a voice of a great crowd and like the sound of many waters and like the sound of heavy thunders. They said: “Praise Jah, because Jehovah our God, the Almighty, has begun to rule as king! 7 Let us rejoice and be overjoyed and give him glory, because the marriage of the Lamb has arrived and his wife has prepared herself. 8 Yes, it has been granted to her to be clothed with bright, clean, fine linen—for the fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the holy ones.”

• (Revelation 21:6, 7) . . .To anyone thirsting I will give from the spring of the water of life free. 7 Anyone conquering will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be my son.

So while it's true that there will be sheep in heaven and sheep on earth, and we call this "two hopes," I believe that our "one hope" (Eph 4:4) is the "new heavens and new earth" that we are awaiting according to his promise. We probably make too much of these terms "great crowd" and "other sheep" as a means of trying to separate those who hold to an earthly hope. But it doesn't mean that I think we have the overall picture wrong.

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

First, it was JWinsider, and now you.

Actually, this was easily and immediately proven to be a complete lie. Pathetically, you had to repeat this particular lie over and over again, each time with exactly ZERO evidence of any kind.

[ftwpiynp]

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

I do appreciate it JWI, when somebody else does the "heavy lifting", in Scriptural analysis and good ol' common sense. I am 72 years old, and I find I do not have the patience. 

[JW Insider]

21 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I do appreciate it JWI, when somebody else does the "heavy lifting", in Scriptural analysis and good ol' common sense.

Thanks. I almost gave you an upvote, but I'm always afraid that a few seconds later a cartoon might show up in the same post that I just can't upvote in good conscience. And yes, if you're wondering, it's because the movie "Deliverance" was rated R.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

So was World War II, but it's important to know about such things, as I see that you recognize the "dueling banjo" reference. That means Ah saw the movie, and presumably you ALSO saw the movie, "Deliverance".

I am surprised that Hollywood's ratings get such respect.

Of course, there are people who never get over the fact they were born in bed with a naked woman ....

(no cartoons for THIS one ...)

[JW Insider]

20 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

However, you mention, the Watchtower believes the Jew is the Remnant, is this correct, or did I read your explanation incorrectly?

I simply quoted the Watchtower where it stated the following:

*** ws16 January p. 21 par. 4 “We Want to Go With You” ***
This means that the Jew is not just one person but represents the whole group of anointed ones.

I never used the term "remnant" although I did reference the "anointed." I believe you already understand the reason for the somewhat different uses of these terms in our publications.

20 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

It becomes difficult to understand your stance since you print certain truths with certain half-truths and mix it with your own understanding. Since you put a lot of effort and research to write down your opinion, I want to get it right.

Thanks for saying you want to get it right. This is not just about my opinion, though. I am happy to express my own opinion,  even if my own opinion differs somewhat from the Watchtower's explanation. But this was also a case of wondering why John seems so sure that this verse cannot refer to any group like the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses. It's almost as if he is sure that somewhere there is a truly anointed person, or group of such persons, who it should be obvious that we should be following. Perhaps they don't exist yet, in John's opinion, or they do and they are just difficult to find among all the "noise." 

20 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Therefore, I’m looking for your personal understanding. Don’t use the Watchtower’s understanding as a crutch, express your own.

We can get to all of this, but I had a few other follow up questions for John, for which I had hoped to get his range of opinion first on what the verse could mean. I wondered just how different John's expectation (for others) would be from the Watchtower's explanation. For example, isn't it possible that John might see it possible that there are several different religious groups each focusing on a different kind of ministry. Some might be doing great work in helping people understand certain important doctrines, but make mistakes in other areas. Perhaps there is a very good religious-based ministry that does an excellent job pushing for legislative reform, religious institutional procedural changes, and general social reform in CSA matters. Would he expect that group to also teach the correct view of Trinity, Hell, Neutrality, etc.? I'm wondering just how "perfect" he would expect any human religious organization to be if it were to specialize, say, in pushing sound Bible doctrinal reform. John has actually said enough already so that I realize I don't need to ask him all the questions I had wanted.

My own opinions here are somewhat separate. Although on the matter of Zechariah 8, I think that chapter really does provide an excellent and important image for us to remember about our own attempts to make converts to true Christianity. Jesus gave the illustration that just like a tree is known for its fruits, we would also attract persons who want to join our particular Christian brotherhood. Also, we know that 'by this people will recognize if we are truly Christ's disciples, if we have love among ourselves.' It reminds us that converts aren't just made from a door to door ministry. Just as an example, the Seventh Day Adventists started out similarly in time to when the Watchtower organization started out, yet they have no specific door*to*door focus, and have grown to nearly 20 million adherents. JTR has mentioned something similar when he says that if we are really doing something right, and are blessed by Jehovah for it, we might expect people to knocking on our door instead of the other way around. (This is not an argument that the SDA's are doing it right and we are doing it wrong.)

On these additional issues about my personal views and opinions about other sheep, great crowd, remnant, body of Christ, anointed, etc., I have already begun answering, and I'm sure you will find plenty to oppose.

[JOHN BUTLER]

 @BillyTheKid46   Firstly you couldn't be bothered to say which scripture you were quoting from but it is obviously Ephesians 4.

So your version of v 12, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 

^{NWT  version of v12}  with a view to the readjustment of the holy ones, for ministerial work, to build up the body of the Christ,

So this is talking about the 144,000 of the heavenly class. 

Also when people start to understand that the Greek scriptures WERE written for the Anointed and not for the earthly class then people might just get a better understanding of all scripture.  Yes we can read scripture and get a very very basic idea of what it means, or we think we do. BUT Jesus will only reveal the true full meanings to those he chooses and they will be the ones of the Anointed. 

I thought the Matthew 25 scripture is good about Jesus sorting the sheep from the goats and Jesus says to the sheep (those of the earthly class that have been recognised as doing good) Matt 25 v40

In reply the King will say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’ 

Now Billy thinks we are all Christ's brothers, but this scripture shows that 'the King' Christ Jesus is talking to the earthly class about the heavenly class, because Jesus says 'of these my brothers', whereas is everyone was of the Body of Christ, it would be 'of these our brothers'.

Funny though i always thought that the Org made it clear that all the earthly class was doing was 'assisting the heavenly class' in the work that was actually given to the heavenly class. That would go along with Jesus' words above. 

 

[JOHN BUTLER]

@JW Insider  Quote "wondering why John seems so sure that this verse cannot refer to any group like the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses."

I actually said it could not BE the GB of the JW Org. I don't remember saying it could not be any group like ... 

There is a big difference. The message from Christ is now Earthwide. The GB are basically 8 white American men. 

The Anointed must also be Earthwide. In my humble opinion it would seem more sensible for Christ to use men of different race, colour, background. And in this day and age of Earthwide internet would they all actually need to be based in one building. (I do believe someone on here has called that building a false temple but i would not go that far.) 

I also thing there is tooooo much emphasis on the actions of the 12 ( or 13)  Apostles of Christ in the 1st century. They were in one place and much of their work was spoken words so not everything would have been recorded. I think it is too easy for people of the earthly class to misunderstand scripture. 

But coming back to the GB of the JW Org / Wt.  By their works you will know them, i think that says it all. 

However I do not say that a group of Anointed men could not do the job. I say that i my opinion the GB are not anointed and not capable of doing the job properly.