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"WATCHTOWER APPEALS TO THE SUPREME COURT"

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From John Redwood...

A preview of upcoming news:

Jehovah's Witnesses are appealing to the Supreme Court of the United States, but this time it has nothing to do with preaching or saluting the flag.

It's all about child abuse.

Specifically, the protection (or cover-up) of information, documents, and testimony of persons involved in cases of child abuse.

I will be covering this story in the coming weeks and months, but I thought I would share some of this news and try to distill it down as simply as I can.

I'd like to point out first that Watchtower has appealed to the Supreme Court in connection with their loss of yet another California child abuse case. The chance that Watchtower's appeal being will be heard by the Supreme Court is slim, but anything is possible.

What brought this about?

There are many ongoing civil child abuse cases in California. One such case is J.W. versus Watchtower. J.W. happens to be the initials for the victim of former JW elder Gilbert Simental, who went on a spree of molestation which touched the lives of numerous victims.

As with other cases, the plaintiff demanded that Watchtower turn over to the court a database of child abuse cases known to be maintained by Watchtower of New York.

In this particular case, because Watchtower failed to turn over the documents in a timely manner, attorneys asked for a default judgment of just over 4 million dollars.

The court agreed with the plaintiff and entered a default judgment in that amount. Watchtower was required to post a bond of more than 6 million dollars while their appeal was pending.

Watchtower lost their appeal, and the decision of the court was upheld. This decision is final- with one exception.

Watchtower has decided to appeal to the United States Supreme court on the basis that their judicial hearings related to child abuse matters are "confidential intra-faith communications" and that they do not, and should not, reveal those communications or documents to anyone, including civil courts.

I'd like to make it very clear what Watchtower is doing here. They are fighting for their right NOT to allow civil authorities to dictate what is confidential, and what is not confidential.

All of this is in relation to their claim that elders do not have the right or duty to report child abuse to the authorities.

Watchtower overtly lies to their members by claiming that they obey secular laws, except when they conflict with God's laws.

Yet they break the law every single time by advising elders NOT to report child abuse to the authorities.

It does NOT matter whether child abuse occurs in a mandatory reporting state- elders STILL do not report to the police because Watchtower has told them that ALL of their communications are protected by clergy-penitent privilege.

This is false- and it is exactly why they are losing tens of millions of dollars in child abuse civil cases. Watchtower advises elders to break the law.

And now they want the Supreme Court of the United States to agree with them.

The claim that the state of California has unfairly targeted Jehovah's Witnesses and "intruded upon matters of church governance."

Why???

How does compliance with mandatory child abuse reporting laws conflict with God's laws? It doesn't. This is a fabrication of Watchtower attorneys working for the Governing Body, and it's become quite clear that they feel that compliance with these civil laws will spell disaster for their religion.

And they might be right.

If Jehovah's Witnesses did the right thing and complied with the law, they would lose the tight grip of control over their elder bodies in ways which frighten the hell out of them.

There is a whole lot more to this story as well as the underlying cases involved, but I wanted to let you know what's going on.

Attorneys for J.W. (the abuse victim) will be filing an opposition to Watchtower's appeal in August, and we should have a decision from the Supreme Court by October on whether they will accept Jehovah's Witnesses appeal for review.

Stay tuned!!

    Hello guest!

 

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Witness:

I am deeply ashamed for the reputation of Jehovah, and the Brotherhood that the Governing Body has Lawyers that will spare no effort, time, and money to PERVERT Justice.

I wish you were lying or agenda driven, but I know from independent research everything you said here is true .... and that there is more, besides that.

Thanks for the vigilance.

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1 hour ago, Witness said:

As with other cases, the plaintiff demanded that Watchtower turn over to the court a database of child abuse cases known to be maintained by Watchtower of New York.

This is puzzling. Why should the plaintiff have the right to demand anything that had nothing to do with his case?

1 hour ago, Witness said:

and it's become quite clear that they feel that compliance with these civil laws will spell disaster for their religion.

I wouldn't go that far.

1 hour ago, Witness said:

If Jehovah's Witnesses did the right thing and complied with the law, they would lose the tight grip of control over their elder bodies in ways which frighten the hell out of them.

I have no idea what John Redwood is talking about here. Perhaps I should ask him.

If elders became mandatory reporters, how would that affect anything? It would just mean that every future case, or suspicion of child abuse or accusation would be reported to the police. How would that be losing a tight grip on the elders?

It appears that the main reason for the appeal is that this would allow for non disclosure of historical cases, and hence limit law suits.

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2 hours ago, Witness said:

From John Redwood...

A preview of upcoming news:

Jehovah's Witnesses are appealing to the Supreme Court of the United States, but this time it has nothing to do with preaching or saluting the flag.

It's all about child abuse.

Specifically, the protection (or cover-up) of information, documents, and testimony of persons involved in cases of child abuse.

I will be covering this story in the coming weeks and months, but I thought I would share some of this news and try to distill it down as simply as I can.

I'd like to point out first that Watchtower has appealed to the Supreme Court in connection with their loss of yet another California child abuse case. The chance that Watchtower's appeal being will be heard by the Supreme Court is slim, but anything is possible.

What brought this about?

There are many ongoing civil child abuse cases in California. One such case is J.W. versus Watchtower. J.W. happens to be the initials for the victim of former JW elder Gilbert Simental, who went on a spree of molestation which touched the lives of numerous victims.

As with other cases, the plaintiff demanded that Watchtower turn over to the court a database of child abuse cases known to be maintained by Watchtower of New York.

In this particular case, because Watchtower failed to turn over the documents in a timely manner, attorneys asked for a default judgment of just over 4 million dollars.

The court agreed with the plaintiff and entered a default judgment in that amount. Watchtower was required to post a bond of more than 6 million dollars while their appeal was pending.

Watchtower lost their appeal, and the decision of the court was upheld. This decision is final- with one exception.

Watchtower has decided to appeal to the United States Supreme court on the basis that their judicial hearings related to child abuse matters are "confidential intra-faith communications" and that they do not, and should not, reveal those communications or documents to anyone, including civil courts.

I'd like to make it very clear what Watchtower is doing here. They are fighting for their right NOT to allow civil authorities to dictate what is confidential, and what is not confidential.

All of this is in relation to their claim that elders do not have the right or duty to report child abuse to the authorities.

Watchtower overtly lies to their members by claiming that they obey secular laws, except when they conflict with God's laws.

Yet they break the law every single time by advising elders NOT to report child abuse to the authorities.

It does NOT matter whether child abuse occurs in a mandatory reporting state- elders STILL do not report to the police because Watchtower has told them that ALL of their communications are protected by clergy-penitent privilege.

This is false- and it is exactly why they are losing tens of millions of dollars in child abuse civil cases. Watchtower advises elders to break the law.

And now they want the Supreme Court of the United States to agree with them.

The claim that the state of California has unfairly targeted Jehovah's Witnesses and "intruded upon matters of church governance."

Why???

How does compliance with mandatory child abuse reporting laws conflict with God's laws? It doesn't. This is a fabrication of Watchtower attorneys working for the Governing Body, and it's become quite clear that they feel that compliance with these civil laws will spell disaster for their religion.

And they might be right.

If Jehovah's Witnesses did the right thing and complied with the law, they would lose the tight grip of control over their elder bodies in ways which frighten the hell out of them.

There is a whole lot more to this story as well as the underlying cases involved, but I wanted to let you know what's going on.

Attorneys for J.W. (the abuse victim) will be filing an opposition to Watchtower's appeal in August, and we should have a decision from the Supreme Court by October on whether they will accept Jehovah's Witnesses appeal for review.

Stay tuned!!

    Hello guest!

Seems you are referring to the case where our organisation was fined $20 million. Surely the governing body his taken this matter up with the person involved. I have been keeping a written document on this matter since. Our Society is within it's rights to protect itself against the transgression of one individual. Jehovah gave Jesus Judas as an apostle to suit his purpose. 

 

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Fantastic news. Perhaps Almighty God will cleanse the JW Org by removing the GB and replacing them, and removing the lawyers too. If God wants that database handed over it will be. 

I agree with James on one thing 'I am deeply ashamed for the reputation of Jehovah'

Does anyone on here really think this is good for Almighty God ?

Is it good for the preaching of the GOOD NEWS ? 

And do you really think Armageddon is close ? Ah, maybe you think Armageddon will get the GB/JW Org out of this mess.

I think LUKE 17 v 1 fits very well here.  

 “It is unavoidable that causes for stumbling should come. Nevertheless, woe to the one through whom they come!"

@Anna & @TrueTomHarley and others, please get your heads out of the sand and see the true reality of your GB and it's Org. 

The truth is Almighty God has to either cleanse the JW Org, or, start a new one. And the JW Org does have some truth in it, deeply hidden but it's there. 


 

 

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5 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Witness:

I am deeply ashamed for the reputation of Jehovah, and the Brotherhood that the Governing Body has Lawyers that will spare no effort, time, and money to PERVERT Justice.

I wish you were lying or agenda driven, but I know from independent research everything you said here is true .... and that there is more, besides that.

Thanks for the vigilance.

@James Thomas Rook Jr.  Deeply ashamed for the reputation of Jehovah, yes, but the Brotherhood are part of the problem.

I always relate things to Hitler and Germany. Hitler could not have done what he did ON HIS OWN.

The GB and the Lawyers could not be doing what they are doing ON THEIR OWN. 

I left the JW Org because of the CSA Earthwide in the JW Org. If all JW's had done the same, if all contributions had stopped, or if JW's did their own research and then made it known in their congregations and took some form of action, then the GB and their Lawyers would have had far less power and far more to worry about. 

If all Elders had complained and stuck together and took some action Earthwide. But no.  JW's are either puppets, or too frightened to say or do anything. 

I know Jehovah will sort it all out, or start a new Org. But will He and Christ find a lot of guilty Bros and Sis in doing so. It is such a shame in what should be an Org dedicated to God. Every person in the ORG should be dedicated to serving Almighty God, but many are not. 

 

 

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The wheels of Jehovah's chariot will never stop making speedy turns in all directions.

Their appearance and structure looked as though a wheel were within a wheel.  When they moved, they could go in any of the four directions without turning as they went. Their rims were so high that they inspired awe, and the rims of all four were full of eyes all around.  Whenever the living creatures moved, the wheels would move along with them, and when the living creatures were lifted up from the earth, the wheels would also be lifted up.  They would go where the spirit inclined them to go, wherever the spirit went. The wheels would be lifted up together with them, for the spirit operating on the living creatures.

Ezekiel 1: 1-18.
 

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7 hours ago, Anna said:

This is puzzling. Why should the plaintiff have the right to demand anything that had nothing to do with his case?

I do hope you will get your questions answered as this develops.  

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2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

 

@Anna & @TrueTomHarley and others, please get your heads out of the sand

From “TrueTom vs the Apostates:”

Drive this matter of child sexual abuse to the Supreme Court, if need be. If they decide to hear it, it will be case number 50-something that Witnesses have tried before that body. Let it be resolved once and for all when the time is right. Many groups are driven to the edge these days over child sexual abuse, as it becomes almost the only issue that matters to some. Over such matters, the Boy Scouts are exploring bankruptcy proceedings. The Boy Scouts! who have long fought the evil but did not succeed in eliminating it. The Boy Scouts! who taught generations of boys to be responsible. The Boy Scouts! who I can’t walk the area trails without coming across historical kiosks or other amenities constructed as someone’s Eagle Scout project. The Boy Scouts! who when they were successfully sued on behalf of a single plaintiff in 2010 for $18.5 million, one of that person’s legal team stated his belief that they “have undertaken a truly noble and important task in mentoring young boys, for which they are to be commended,” and it was his sincere hope that the $18 million judgment “will impress upon them the need to do it better.” Now that he has driven them clear to insolvency, it will be a little hard for his dream to come true. Though groups as the Boy Scouts manifestly benefit children in ways not readily duplicated, their deep pockets permit a pummeling such as cannot be visited on unorganized segments of society, though it be every bit as accommodating to child sexual abuse—and without providing any benefit. It will be so with groups that instill religious values into youth as well.

 

1 hour ago, Witness said:

With Anna's help I believe you are now aware that John Redwood wrote this.  He is the same man who, with his wife, told their story in the Atlantic.    

Some elders wanted to meet with him afterwords, and he published their names, photos, and addresses. I wrote of it here:

 

    Hello guest!

1 hour ago, Witness said:

I do hope you will get your questions answered as this develops.  

Given how vested you are in this, it is surprising that you do not know

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40 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Drive this matter of child sexual abuse to the Supreme Court, if need be. If they decide to hear it, it will be case number 50-something that Witnesses have tried before that body. Let it be resolved once and for all when the time is right. Many groups are driven to the edge these days over child sexual abuse, as it becomes almost the only issue that matters to some. Over such matters, the Boy Scouts are exploring bankruptcy proceedings.

You have deflected to the Boy Scouts.  In your mind, you are desperately trying to preserve a corrupt leadership/organization that claims to represent the Almighty God.  Is it not more important to preserve our relationship with God, rather than with men who fail deliberately and repeatedly, to protect their "sheep"?  

I am more "vested" in the prophetic outcome of this organization, of which this matter only contributes to.  

When it is in your power,
don’t withhold good from the one it belongs to.
28 Don’t say to your neighbor, “Go away! Come back later.
I’ll give it tomorrow”—when it is there with you.
29 Don’t plan any harm against your neighbor,
for he trusts you and lives near you.
30 Don’t accuse anyone without cause,
when he has done you no harm.
31 Don’t envy a violent man
or choose any of his ways;
32 for the devious are detestable to the Lord,
but He is a friend to the upright.
33 The Lord’s curse is on the household of the wicked,
but He blesses the home of the righteous;
34 He mocks those who mock,
but gives grace to the humble.
35 The wise will inherit honor,
but He holds up fools to dishonor.  Prov 3:27-35

 

 

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2019-07-27_103704.jpg

 

John Butler:

This is what happens when you pervert Justice,  by even having the ABILITY to destroy whole families, when someone does not "tow the line" of Company Policy, by those who invoke the authority of Jehovah God to excuse their methods.

If we disciplined a baby .... by cutting off it's head, and exiling the parents and relatives, and cutting out their tongues .... human civilization would cease.

In the times of the Crusaders, they actually DID cut out peoples' tongues, to keep them from speaking , but just as in the case of our shunning policy and practices ... the  REAL reason is to generate  FEAR AND OBEDIENCE to the exercise of man-made authority ... to consolidate power, and not have the income stream disrupted.

This is nothing new ... it is a story as old as human existence.

What is new, is that the brutality is wrapped in silken words, loving tones,  soft voices, , and the claws are concealed by a silk and velvet glove.

... and millions and millions of hypnotic, well chosen words, continually repeated.

Every real problem we have in the Truth, is DIRECTLY because of the policies of HOW disfellowshipping is done.

Disfellowshipping is a necessary surgery to cut out cancer that will spread.

Mutilating the spectators and family  is evil.

From that fountain flows compounded injustice, fear,  bitter cold, and unnecessary heavy, heavy load of EVERY sort.

It is a cascading avalanche  that turns good men of conscience into cowardly minions of EXPERTLY and COMPETENTLY disguised evil.

There is a word for this ......

 

NORMAL.

 

 

 

 

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11 hours ago, Anna said:

If elders became mandatory reporters, how would that affect anything? It would just mean that every future case, or suspicion of child abuse or accusation would be reported to the police. How would that be losing a tight grip on the elders?

Because every thought and motivation would not then be dictated by "Central Command"

The Elders would be using their NATURAL human conscience, instead of following the "outline" ... the script.

One way to consolidate your authority is the exercise of arbitrary and capricious POWER.

---------------------------------------

Hitler was OBVIOUSLY insane to all sane people ... but his arbitrary , capricious, and irrational exercise of power short-circuited the reasoning abilities of his minions.

It also short-circuited their natural consciences, and their natural abhorrence to tyranny.

The ONLY way to rationalize the irrational .... was absolute obedience.

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I thought again of Isa 9:6,7 where Jesus is described as Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. His kingdom is sustained with "justice and righteousness". 

People walk away from this organization, unjustly wounded and bleeding, even bled to "death", physically and spiritually. Rev 13:15 If Jesus Christ is our Counselor and Prince of Peace, why would he have any hand in such unrighteousness?    Matt 23:37; Rom 3:10-18; Rev 16:4-6; 18:20,24

 

 

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In March 1997, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, the nonprofit organization that oversees the Jehovah’s Witnesses, sent a letter to each of its 10,883 U.S. congregations, and to many more congregations worldwide. The organization was concerned about the legal risk posed by possible child molesters within its ranks. The letter laid out instructions on how to deal with a known predator: Write a detailed report answering 12 questions—Was this a onetime occurrence, or did the accused have a history of child molestation? How is the accused viewed within the community? Does anyone else know about the abuse?—and mail it to Watchtower’s headquarters in a special blue envelope. Keep a copy of the report in your congregation’s confidential file, the instructions continued, and do not share it with anyone.

IN MARCH 1997. THOSE AT THE TOP KNEW.  And then all the Elders in the USA knew.

That's when those that knew should have acted. Acted to serve Almighty God, not to serve the GB / Wt Soc / JW Org. 

Quote @James Thomas Rook Jr. " Every real problem we have in the Truth is DIRECTLY because of the policies of HOW disfellowshipping is done. " 

I find it funny that you still call it the 'truth'. Most of it is a long way from true. Much of it is lies and deceit. Some of it is totally disgusting. 

Andas I said before it is not just the fault of the GB and top brass, it is just as much the fault of everyone that followed orders that were obviously going against God's principles and love.

 

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Regarding TTH always bringing in 'the world' to every situation, this time the Boy scouts. 

In the world, when a government minister or a big business boss does something really bad, they either 'step down' from their position voluntarily or are requested to step down from their position of power. 

So if TTH thinks the JW Org is equal to the world, then maybe the GB should step down voluntarily or be told to do so. 

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6 hours ago, Witness said:

With Anna's help I believe you are now aware that John Redwood wrote this

That was not with my help. That was at the top of the article you posted

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3 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Because every thought and motivation would not then be dictated by "Central Command"

If that's how you look at it. I thought our every thought and motivation comes from following the Bible.

 

3 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:
15 hours ago, Anna said:

If elders became mandatory reporters, how would that affect anything? It would just mean that every future case, or suspicion of child abuse or accusation would be reported to the police. How would that be losing a tight grip on the elders?

The Elders would be using their NATURAL human conscience, instead of following the "outline" ... the script.

 

There are many areas where elders are left to follow their natural conscience, reporting CSA could just be one of them. However, if elders became mandated reporters, every time they phoned Legal for advice, they would be dictated by "central command" to report. So central command would still dictate, so that means they would not lose any grip on elders. See what I mean? The key is for the org. not to claim clergy penitence. That's the answer.

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2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

That's when those that knew should have acted. Acted to serve Almighty God, not to serve the GB / Wt Soc / JW Org. 

Should have acted and done what?

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Quote @Anna If that's how you look at it. I thought our every thought and motivation comes from following the Bible.

Are you really that naive ? 

But please tell all of us here, who do you mean by OUR in your sentence ? 

You obviously can't be including the GB, or the Lawyers, or any other top administration, or the Elders. 

That only leaves the basic congregants in each congregation................... 

As for your second comment there, it is a bit dumb. 

if elders became mandated reporters, every time they phoned Legal for advice, they would be dictated by "central command" to report. 

They would not need to phone Legal for advice, just report it directly to Police or Authorities. And if congregants knew beforehand that it would be reported to those authorities then it would be up to the conscience of the person that had the information or up to the victim to tell the Elders or not. 

As it is now the Elders are protecting the GB and Its Org and hiding the pedophile from the Police and authorities if they do not report it immediately. But you know that anyway, because that's what this whole problem is all about.  

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41 minutes ago, Anna said:

Should have acted and done what?

Those at the top should have firstly refused to keep it all quiet. And should have demanded a meeting to do Bible based research to see where the scriptural backing came from. Of course there was no scriptural backing so the whole thing should have been turned around immediately.

If the top brass were too scared to take action then the Elders of the congregations should have seen through it, and totally refused to carry it out. If the Elders were as you pretend, being guided by Bible principles, then how could they keep such disgusting things, dangerous things, unloving things, things that dishonour God, secret ? 

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28 minutes ago, Anna said:

The key is for the org. not to claim clergy penitence. That's the answer

If, then, the clergy-laity distinction is not based on the model set by Jesus’ apostles and other early Christians, does that make it wrong? According to the Bible, yes.......

Spiritually older men did, of course, serve as overseers, which included being shepherds and teachers. (

    Hello guest!
) However, these men were not paid clerics........

Sadly, when people disregard that divinely inspired directive, spiritual harm usually results, and that is true of the clergy-laity arrangement. How so? Please consider the following six points.

1. The separation of a clergy class implies that one must have a special calling to be a minister of God. 

2. The clergy-laity distinction exalts the clergy class, an evidence being adulatory religious titles.

3. A paid clergy class can impose a heavy financial burden on the laity, especially when the former have lavish lifestyles.

4. Because a clergyman may depend on others for financial support, he might be tempted to dilute the Bible’s message in order to please parishioners. 

5. The clergy-laity distinction tends to cause lay people to relegate religion to the clergy, while the laity just turn up for weekly services.

6. When the laity are Biblically uninformed, they can easily be misled by clerics, even exploited by them.

source: 

    Hello guest!

When GB, Elders and WT Lawyers defend themselves before Courts how in JW Congregations Worldwide existing clergy penitence as answer to Judges why they not want to give verbal or written testimony to Court, than all this what was said in Awake is worth NOTHING. We can also discuss some other claims here about this 6 points and found it problematic.   

Dear @Anna answer would not come by WT Society loud public claim how clergy penitence WILL STOP TO exist in congregations. Well, according to Awake that same THING doesn't exist at all in WT Society or JW Church. :))))..... because JW have not CLERGY :)))) ... only on Courts cases when millions of $ are at stake.

 

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15 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

If the Elders were as you pretend, being guided by Bible principles, then how could they keep such disgusting things, dangerous things, unloving things, things that dishonour God, secret ? 

Yes. In fact WHY they have to call Legal Department for advice on - to call or not to call - if Bible PRINCIPLES and GUIDANCE of holy spirit are powers SUFFICIENT for Elders when making decisions? :))

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If you think that the GB, Branch Office personnel and Circuit Overseers do not think of themselves as "Clergy", try baptizing your Bible Study one afternoon at a local public pool, without congregation oversight.

The Baptism may be acceptable to God, and Christ .... but you will "catch hell" in the little back room, and may be disfellowshipped, yourself, for not including the fealty oath to the Organization., as represented by the Governing Body., and the Elders declare the baptism invalid.

Or do you think the Ethiopian Eunuch answered all 100 questions, and pledged his allegiance to the Organization in Jerusalem, before he was baptized?

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17 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

If you think that the GB, Branch Office personnel and Circuit Overseers do not think of themselves as "Clergy", try baptizing your Bible Study one afternoon at a local public pool, without congregation oversight.

“What I mean is this, that each one of you says: “I belong to Paul,” “But I to A·polʹlos,” “But I to Ceʹphas,” “But I to Rook.”

Is there a reason that he cannot be baptized at an assembly or convention like every other Witness on the planet? Did you tell him to wear tight pants, too?

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7 hours ago, Anna said:

That was not with my help. That was at the top of the article you posted

 

21 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I wish you were lying or agenda driven, but I know from independent research everything you said here is true

 

21 hours ago, Anna said:

I have no idea what John Redwood is talking about here. Perhaps I should ask him.

It appears James may not have notice that the post was written by John Redwood, until he saw your comment under his.  

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6 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Yes. In fact WHY they have to call Legal Department for advice on - to call or not to call - if Bible PRINCIPLES and GUIDANCE of holy spirit are powers SUFFICIENT for Elders when making decisions? :))

Not only do the have the Bible, but according to the Watchtower, they have been appointed by Holy Spirit:

The "gifts in men" mentioned at Eph 4:8 are Christian elders, who are appointed by holy spirit and are given authority to care for the spiritual interests of fellow believers.  (Acts 20:28)  km 8/02 pp. 5-6

Two lies:

When it comes to child abuse, they must call for legal advice.  Their given authority to care for spiritual interests of fellow believers, stops there.

The "gifts in men" do not refer to those not anointed, but to the anointed ones.  Eph 4:11-13

Would they have Holy Spirit if this elder body from the top down, has lied about not only their false authority, but robbing the identity of who God has provided to serve under Holy Spirit's guidance?

Would God really give these men the ability to shepherd justly if they rule behind a lie?

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...

 

2019-07-27_234244.jpg

Perhaps TTH, the person dedicating his life to Jehovah wanted to do it NOW .... just as the Ethiopian Eunuch did..

Apparently the Eunuch was smart enough to text and drive at the same time, and not run into a camel, and was aware enough to see a lake or pond nearby, while driving a chariot, listening to the "radio", and reading.

Perhaps there are some people that do not agree with the philosophy that JW.ORG  should be JW.BORG, where resistance is futile, and everyone WILL be assimilated, and be exactly the same.

HARDWIRED.jpg

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11 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

If you think that the GB, Branch Office personnel and Circuit Overseers do not think of themselves as "Clergy", try baptizing your Bible Study one afternoon at a local public pool, without congregation oversight.

The Baptism may be acceptable to God, and Christ .... but you will "catch hell" in the little back room, and may be disfellowshipped, yourself, for not including the fealty oath to the Organization., as represented by the Governing Body., and the Elders declare the baptism invalid.

Or do you think the Ethiopian Eunuch answered all 100 questions, and pledged his allegiance to the Organization in Jerusalem, before he was baptized?

James would you be kind enough to give me 10 good reasons why you are still one of them ? 

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7 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Perhaps TTH, the person dedicating his life to Jehovah wanted to do it NOW .... just as the Ethiopian Eunuch did..

Did you drive him there in his chariot?

7 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Perhaps there are some people that do not agree with the philosophy that JW.ORG

That being the case, why would he even show up afterwards at any meeting directed by his spiritual enemies, so that they could “take you and he to the back room” or however you phrased it? If their baptism is no good, why assume that their meetings are?  It makes no sense.

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2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

That being the case, why would he even show up afterwards at any meeting directed by his spiritual enemies, so that they could “take you and he to the back room” or however you phrased it? If their baptism is no good, why assume that their meetings are?  It makes no sense.

It makes no sense to you because you have missed the point tht Baptism to God and Christ is what is in the person's heart ....the fact that Witnesses are DELIBERATELY kept ignorant OF THE  CORPORATE LOYALTY OATH, that they are ALSO swearing fealty to a Corporation excuses their ignorance, completely.  Not every soldier is a John Rambo.

The Corporate Fealty Oath  is deliberately obscured and hidden until the very last moment for a specific reason.

That part of the ceremony is a deliberate legal trap.

The Governing Body and the Watchtower lawyers know EXACTLY what they are doing, and exactly what the words mean .... in a court of law .... where someone  is suing them for malfeasance or other crimes against the dignity of the individual.

With those weasel words, expertly disguised or completely hidden, and DELIBERATELY not taught ... to the baptismal candidate ... they can legitimately say to a judge or jury ... and have it hold up in a court of law ... that the baptized Witnesses agreed to be subordinate and mistreated by the Corporation.

 

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There are two parts to a Corporate Baptism:

1.) Dedication and public declaration of agreement of being adopted by Jehovah God, and Christ Jesus,  and

2.) An oath of fealty and subservience to the Corporation's ( The "Organization" ) policies and procedures.

I suspect the Watchtower Lawyers, which now dictate the nuances of our "Corporate Theology", will have to work a LOT of overtime, when this issue hits the courtroom, as respects to Corporate baptized  minors, below the age of 18, when challenged on that point alone.

UNless legally emancipated, they do NOT have the right to make contracts, except for food, clothing, shelter, and suchlike absolute essentials .... and CERTAINLY (to be tested in court ...) not contested fealty to a Corporation, the contract being entered into before the age of majority.

I do NOT agree with JW.ORG, becoming JW.BORG .... but the Watchtower Lawyers and accountants are now running the show, and there is NOTHING... NOTHING, anybody on Earth can do about it.

The Governing Body CANNOT be fired by anyone on Earth.

...and they know it!

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3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

James would you be kind enough to give me 10 good reasons why you are still one of them ? 

The person in black at the right side of my wife (Green bathing costume) who was about to be baptized, was himself a baptised brother who even endured two years of detention at military barracks in Pretoria during the early seventies. I was among those welcoming him back.

On return to the congregation in Southern Wood East London, South Africa he did an about turn in a letter to the local Daily Dispatch newspaper apologising to the people he called on during his field ministry, for spreading false good news. He felt that the elders who refused to attend to the needs of people on the outside, or something to that nature. I wasn't present when that particular meeting. He became politically involved, often submitting letters to the Daily DIspatch.

Honey about to be baptised.JPG

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4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

James would you be kind enough to give me 10 good reasons why you are still one of them ? 

I have given my reasons before on this forum at great length ....

In one sentence ... it is the ONLY "game in town" ... and I do not have unrealistic expectations about what humans are capable of doing as regards righteousness.

I am a retired Engineer, and I recognize when machines are operated beyond their design capacity.

This is also true of ALL people.

There are NO exceptions.

Reality is what it is .... not what we WISH it was.

 

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1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

In one sentence ... it is the ONLY "game in town" ... and I do not have unrealistic expectations about what humans are capable of doing as regards righteousness.

The only game in town in Jesus’ day, which was equally corrupt, was destroyed.  If the apostles held to your philosophy, where would any of us be now?  2 Cor 6:14,16,17; Rev 18:4-8

2 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

The Governing Body CANNOT be fired by anyone on Earth.

...and they know it!

Not without God "putting it into their hearts" - into the hearts of the elder body to act on behalf of their "Beast"/organization.

Rev 17:15-17

Rev 17:12-14

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1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I have given my reasons before on this forum at great length ....

In one sentence ... it is the ONLY "game in town" ... and I do not have unrealistic expectations about what humans are capable of doing as regards righteousness.

I am a retired Engineer, and I recognize when machines are operated beyond their design capacity.

This is also true of ALL people.

There are NO exceptions.

Reality is what it is .... not what we WISH it was.

 

I'll give you one rude word for that comment James, Bullshit. I do not normally swear on here but your comment is just an excuse. 

The comment also shows a lack of faith in Almighty God. 

Remembering that the JW Org is nothing like the Nation of Israel. In that Nation most people were born into it and had to live under the LAW.  In JW Org most people are NOT born into it, they are volunteers. They, supposedly, want to be there. 

So what you should have is 8.5 million people willing to serve God properly in what SHOULD BE an inspired organisation, led by inspired Anointed brothers. 

By saying that the GB / JW Org / Watchtower Soc 'are operated beyond their design capacity,'  you are saying that it is not God's organisations and not inspired or even guided by God's Holy Spirit. 

So how does it make it 'the only game in town', when it's not even in the running ? 

It would have to be God's chosen Organisation, being inspired / guided / run by God's Holy Spirit through Jesus Christ, who would be operating through willing, humble,  God fearing, true, honest human servants.  

Oh dear multi fail by JW Org. 

 

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2 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

It makes no sense to you because you have missed the point tht Baptism to God and Christ is what is in the person's heart ....the fact that Witnesses are DELIBERATELY kept ignorant OF THE  CORPORATE LOYALTY OATH, that they are ALSO swearing fealty to a Corporation excuses their ignorance, completely.  Not every soldier is a John Rambo.

What makes no sense to me is that you have evaded my question. If you have peered into the deeper things of God and have decided that those running the show are frauds, why do you come to the meetings that they sponsor, as you must have for them to give you any grief.

Witness runs a fine shop that she operates out of Facebook. Why don’t you go there?

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9 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

What makes no sense to me is that you have evaded my question. If you have peered into the deeper things of God and have decided that those running the show are frauds, why do you come to the meetings that they sponsor, as you must have for them to give you any grief.

Witness runs a fine shop that she operates out of Facebook. Why don’t you go there?

Perhaps James is a spy. 

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6 hours ago, Anna said:
11 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Perhaps James is a spy. 

Yes, his last name is Bond

This is why I prefer to be called just "Rook", (no first or middle name), or JTR ... to keep from being identified with the Apostle James, which would be a stretch of multi-dimensional proportions .... or with Sean Connery , the only REAL James Bond ...... I mean .... besides the Ornithologist ( Bird Watcher, for those in Rio Linda ...) named James Bond, from whom Ian Fleming  the author and creator of the James Bond Character took the name., who wrote several  books on birds that impressed Ian Fleming, also a bird watcher ... ....

Why do you think I got 18 chickens?

They are birds, and a lot cheaper than parrots.

L-TO-R TOMMY, ME, YANNICK  .jpg

                    Left to right .... 006, 007, 009

Super Chicken Intro.mp4

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TTH made the comment, "Witness runs a fine shop that she operates out of Facebook. Why don’t you go there?"

I remember as a JW frequently hearing “you receive free, give free”, based on Matt 10:8  I thought that was what I was doing, freely spreading “good news” from the Bible,  which was really the GB’s slant on the good news. I also realized I paid for the “privilege” to spread this news to others. (This is why JWs state they are so proud to be a JW.  It is a privilege to be one)  I paid for this presumed privilege , through my devotion, loyalty, and servitude I gave to the organization.  Being a JW comes with a price – total commitment and obedience to men. Rom 6:16; 1 Cor 7:23; Gal 1:10  Once a member realizes nothing comes free under that environment, and stops paying into this organization, they lose all they have invested in it…family, friends, and their life as they knew it.  Rev 13:15

This type of spiritual commerce is so far removed from the teachings of Jesus.  It is a commerce of buying and selling spiritual food dressed up in a pretty package, but which comes with a temporary shelf life. The expiration date is unknown, until a new and improved product comes into the “marketplace”.  What a surprise to find out that what you had been eating all along, could make you spiritually ill.  Jer 23:16

After making a whip out of cords, he drove everyone out of the temple with their sheep and oxen. He also poured out the money changers’ coins and overturned the tables. 16 He told those who were selling doves, “Get these things out of here! Stop turning my Father’s house into a marketplace!” (“a house of business”)  John 2:15,16

He went into the temple and began to throw out those who were selling 46 and he said, “It is written, my house will be a house of prayer, but you have made it a den of thieves!” Luke 19:45,46

WT is all about “business” in every sense of the word. Their leaders’ first and foremost concern is not the members; otherwise they would be “inspired” by Holy Spirit and producing its fruitage, fruit that would “last”. Gal 5:22-26; John 15:16 Their concerns are members who are willing to give monetarily, physically, and mentally to support and build for WT, and work all aspects of their business.  It has to do with land holdings, and investments that support the idol that they must keep alive.  Rev 13:4

Perhaps JWs feel they have a “fine shop” to buy their spiritual food from, but every aspect of the provision of this spiritual fruit, is corrupt. Matt 7:17,18  This is why Jesus sends his servants in the last days to “go to the lost sheep of Israel” – stated two verses before Matt 10:8 . Rev 11:1-3  “Israel”, the Temple of God/anointed ones is found in this “house of business”, the house of “buying and selling”. Rev 13:7  The spiritual Temple of God has been corrupted by a false prophet and organization of elders, who regulates all food JWs “eat”. Matt 24:48-51  The Temple is over-run by “thieves” that are stealing not only from them, but from all JWs. They are stealing what could have been spiritual food that these Temple members could offer as a unified body under one Head, Jesus. 

In the same chapter of Matthew, Jesus said “When they persecute you in one town, flee to another. For truly I tell you, you will not have gone through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

The anointed and all who have lost their life for rejecting the organization by listening and adhering to Christ’s words, have gained “life” through Christ’s spiritual provisions offered through his servants he sends.  John 13:20; Matt 17:11   There is no “buying and selling”, no time sheets, no dedication made to an organization, no “back room” of judgment. It is spiritual food, offered with no strings attached.   Yet, the “good news” is being preached to whom it must be preached; “Israel” and all “leaving the city” – ex-JWs who know that truth can be found.  Luke 14:21; 17:26-37

The Watchtower tells its members that it prefers to concentrate on the pure,  simple teachings of the Bible. What they don’t capitalize on any longer, is the understanding of the Marriage Feast of the Lamb and when it occurs.  Matt 25:1-12   They do have this to say,

Discreet, prepared virgins (

    Hello guest!
)—Anointed Christians who are prepared to carry out their assignment faithfully and who shine as illuminators until the end (
    Hello guest!
)

What would that assignment be?  To follow the “wicked slave”, shining as illuminators for false christs who have deceived them already?  Matt 24:24

Foolish virgins (

    Hello guest!
)—Anointed Christians who go out to meet the Bridegroom but who do not remain watchful and do not maintain their integrity   mwb 18 March p. 17

That’s it.  Nothing there about what the foolish virgins do to keep from entering the Marriage Feast.  Yet, its fulfillment has arrived.  The “foolish virgins” buy “oil”, a spirit, from a “wicked slave” – too fearful to stand up against men and their worthless fodder they have to offer. Col 3:24  The “wise virgins” listen to Christ and receive the “food” necessary to carry them through to the Kingdom.  They share it, with all who desire to listen.  They have the integrity to give up their lives to search and receive, truth from Christ.   

All…who leave the city, are invited to this Feast. 

 

 

 

 

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Well, BTK46, I personally do not think we have much to fear from external enemies .... if we are doing things  that are correct ... they have no case at all . 

All sane, reasonable people know this.

The fact of the matter is this ... day by day, in the eyes of the World, Jehovah's Witnesses are losing what credibility we USED to have, with general nuttiness .... and the Governing Body, in it's self aggrandizing attempts at damage control, are day by day, losing THEIR credibility, except with the slowest, the dull, and the trusting.

They are their OWN worst enemy.

With all the real good that they do in directing the preaching of the Good News, the drivel that they add chases just as many people away, as the Truth attracts.

When you have the TRUTH ... we would not have to knock on THEIR doors ... they would be knocking on OUR doors.

The general impression is that we dress well, are fine people, but are bat-crap crazy.

dONATIONS bOX.jpg

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9 hours ago, Witness said:

TTH made the comment, "Witness runs a fine shop that she operates out of Facebook. Why don’t you go there?"

Yes, yes, another diatribe on why how are spreading out the Fine Feast on Facebook, whereas the JW anointed are no good. Still, you didn’t address the question. Why doesn’t he go there?

Actually, @James Thomas Rook Jr. had said it, and I missed it. Something about being the only game in town. It is hard to keep up.

I think he means that with Jehovah’s Witnesses there is a combination of pure teachings that are found no where else. Some of them are individually, but the combination is not. They involve such things as the Name, the kingdom, no immortality of the soul,  no Trinity, the reason for suffering, the preaching work, the need to keep watchful, transformed personalities, and so forth. The Christian ministry is a treasure, however it is a treasure carried in “earthen vessels”—that is, people, who are not unflawed.

Although he fights so much and so bitterly with the bus driver that I can’t imagine why he doesn’t just leave—it would make the driver happier, the bus company happier, the passengers happier, and one would think, him happier—yet he does not do it, probably for the above reasons. (except for the ministry, and the nearness of the end, which he doesn’t seem to think is so)

People are a collection of their experiences, both those that have happened to them, and those they have manufactured. I have called John a loon. Maybe he is not, but he so closely resembles one that I cannot tell the difference. My bad. As much as he carries on about worshipping the GB (with key support from JTR at critical times), he cannot seem able to understand that it is factors in the second paragraph that form a Witness’s faith, and following the direction of the GB is no more than not fighting with the traffic cop or the coach or the mentor. 

Let us humor him for a moment. Let us grant his dream come true, that malfeasance will someday be uncovered ....gasp!’....high up in the ranks. So? It would hardly affect one’s faith. They are men—everyone knows that. There have been many times in the past when the earthly organization is shaken practically into rubble—in America during WWI, in Axis countries during WWII, in Russia now—and as soon as the heat is off, God’s people rebuild like ants, because their faith was never in human arrangements—those just exist to facilitate and enhance spiritual things—their faith was in the spiritual things themselves.

Many times in the past brothers in responsible positions have proven unfaithful, sometimes even deceitful, and have been removed and replaced. It happens. Even GB members have been removed—sometimes with fanfare and sometimes not. Faith itself continues. It was never in human arrangements. It was in spiritual things. Enemies of the faith make the same mistake here that they do in Russia. Failing to grasp spiritual things, they imagine that if the shut down the earthly coordinating organization, the faith will collapse. Instead, it is like stomping on the anthill. The ants run for cover, but almost immediately they commence rebuilding. Their faith was never in the anthill—that was just their to magnify their ant-life.

The Bible reading last week in 1 Timothy 1:18 encourages ones (Timothy) to hold “faith and a good conscience, which some have thrust aside, resulting in the shipwreck of their faith.  Hy·me·naeʹus and Alexander are among these, and I have handed them over to Satan so that they may be taught by discipline not to blaspheme.” As long as you hold faith and a good conscience, you are fine—and the faith is with regard to God and his Son, as accurately represented by the factors of paragraph 2. 

If Hymenaeus and Alexander go bad on you, to be sure, it is a downer, but it does not destroy faith and a good conscience. 

And so that John does not once again attach his maniacal laughing emoji to whatever he disagrees with—which is anything from a faithful Witness—I will do it myself and beat him at his own game.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

And so that John does not once again attach his maniacal laughing emoji to whatever he disagrees with—which is anything from a faithful Witness—I will do it myself and beat him at his own game.

Uh oh. There does not seem to be that option anymore. I’m sunk. Something seems a little flakey with this software lately. Has the Librarian (that old hen) fallen off the wagon again?

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TTH – “If Hymenaeus and Alexander go bad on you, to be sure, it is a downer, but it does not destroy faith and a good conscience. “

Hymenaeus is mentioned also in 2 Tim 2:14-19:

 Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers. 15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. 17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal:

“The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’   Matt 7:21-23

 

Image result for Watchtower 1975

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Keep to your website as Pearl Doxsey

 

I am not Pearl Doxsey, but I work with her.  Wow, you went to her blog, defying the rules and regulations of your organization, not to seek out, "apostates".   

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Just now, Witness said:

I am not Pearl Doxsey, but I work with her.  Wow, you went to her website defying the rules and regulations of your organization, not to seek out, "apostates".   

Oh, come now. He does it by showing up here.

I, however, have not. I really really really want to, but I am too scared.

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1 minute ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Oh, come now. He does it by showing up here.

I, however, have not. I really really really want to, but I am too scared.

Did you notice that he highlighted "Pearl Doxsey" in purple?  Where do you think he got that idea?

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5 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Remember, when the Watchtower uses the term "mentally diseased" it's NOT referring to the sanity of a person, like ALL you dense people portray, but it belongs with the "poisoning of the mind" that is reflected upon one's heart. 😏

huh.... if you sure about that as your personal belief , it is something that is possible to accept. But only as your Interpretation and personal attitude ..... of hope.

Now,  when Writing Department and "Minister of Internal Truth" gave green light on text to be print with wording that IT IS in magazine, your argumentation is not so powerful. Because, all those smart people in Betel and around the Betel who working hard on wording in articles would used different lexis with clear and sound meaning IF they want to tell what you tell here. :))     

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43 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Here’s the thing James. It’s not my inability to communicate much more than telling you directly that we are not friends and never will be. That’s the most honest communication I can give .....

May I console you by saying I will not lose any sleep over that ...

I challenged you MANY times to point out where JUST ONE thing I have ever said on this forum was a lie  ... and of over seven years and perhaps 9,000 or so comments I have made on every imaginable subject ... you ALWAYS choked and never provided not even ONE single example.

NOT ONE!

I may be occasionally wrong ... but I do not lie.

You are really at war with yourself, Billy.

I sincerely hope you win!

 

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11 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

When you have the TRUTH ... we would not have to knock on THEIR doors ... they would be knocking on OUR doors.

“And the 70 returned and they were bummed. The Lord said, “Why are you bummed.” They answered, “We sat at home from morning through the burning heat of the day, straight into evening, and nobody knocked on our door.”    

 

11 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

The fact of the matter is this ... day by day, in the eyes of the World, Jehovah's Witnesses are losing what credibility we USED to have, with general nuttiness .... and the Governing Body, in it's self aggrandizing attempts at damage control, are day by day, losing THEIR credibility, except with the slowest, the dull, and the trusting.

I don’t think that this is true. The nuttiness is no more than it has always been, and is in many respects less. To some extent, it is exactly what one would expect. Jesus said he did not come to call on those who do not need a physician—he came to call on those who do. When our people go nuts, they still would not hurt a fly. When those outside go nuts, for many of them you’d better call the SWAT team.

The conventions invariably make a good impression. Both the website and the literature carts add a measure of dignity not always conveyed by any given publisher. Events transpiring in Russia paint us as downright champions of human rights.

Yes, the charges of CSA are bad, but they are largely offset by the fact that there is no sizable group of persons not also enmeshed in them, as well as a general weariness of lawyers. You well remember when premiere television or billboard sponsors were manufacturers or vendors. Today they are lawyers, and people weary over the massive transfers of cash that they enable, whilst skimming off at least the top third. They think of all the things they used to be able to do that they no longer can do on account of lawyers making things cost-prohibitive, and it qualifies any zeal for whatever cause they might represent. Even as people as individuals hope that their turn winning the lawyer-lottery may come next, people as a group share a general sense that the barristers have destroyed the fabric of life. Insurance premiums of all sorts skyrocket at a time that overall inflation is quite low. Everyone knows why. Nonstop lawsuits on everything under the sun amounts to a tax on everyone else.

I think it is too much you pumping life into anti-Witness memes—living and breathing that life. You are consumed with them, and thus you come to think they far more occupy people’s attention than they really do.

It is like that with every cause. It is like that even with us. We start to imagine that everyone on earth is turning over in their minds and hearts the kingdom cause, siding for or against. But when I met an author in the dog park, he said: “Watchtower—that’s the Mormons, isn’t it?”

    Hello guest!

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21 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

They allowed their hearts to be corrupted by secular society, when I have not.

There is a thing called conscience.  Barbara Anderson met a brick wall that bruised her conscience. She took action when the corruption she faced in the "society" she belonged to, needed to be exposed.   She didn't swallow it down as if it didn't exist, but she did her research; as you say you are doing, as a result of being a man of  academia. 

However, it is all a conscience matter.  Some individuals freely develop an ineffective conscience, branded and scarred by the influence of hypocrisy.  Even though truth may be right in front of them, they no longer discern the difference between righteousness and unrighteousness, no matter how much research they may find, that exposes the source of hypocrisy.  

"God’s Spirit specifically tells us that in later days there will be men who abandon the true faith and allow themselves to be spiritually seduced by teachings of the devil, teachings given by men who are lying hypocrites, whose consciences are as dead as seared flesh. 1 Tim 4:1,2

  Then Jesus said, “My coming into this world is itself a judgment—those who cannot see have their eyes opened and those who think they can see become blind.”   John 9:39

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@BillyTheKid46 Probably because Law is too difficult or too much for some people to comprehend. Especially with how things are going all over the place, some people don't really trust Law and some who knows Law and do good are often overshadowed by corruption fellas. Just a few weeks ago for us peeps in Jersey about Judge John Russo. But at the end of the day like I said, there is people who know the law even the basic stuff and those who are literally not knowing anything about it when it comes to crime and other things. I can honesty say I don't know all the high stuff besides the basic things, no texting and driving, buckle up it's the law (buckle up or get locked up), I seen billboards for this one, drive sober or get pulled over, and this one, when driving at night, always stay right.

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On 7/29/2019 at 12:26 AM, BillyTheKid46 said:

Hey! If Ryan can do it, why can't anyone else. This site is a poor excuse for being a witness site. It's more like an apostate site, where anything goes. 😏

And yet, here you are. Face it, you’re a bad, bad boy! 🤣

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On 7/29/2019 at 8:26 AM, BillyTheKid46 said:

Wrong! Credibility is being lost by people as yourself that muddy the water for honest witnesses to convey Bible truth without the need for people to reflect, if your own members have a problem, why shouldn't we. That's the problem with Today's Watchtower. They can't see far ahead of their own to weed out the undesirables like you James, Anna, ?Winsider.

The mentally diseased of an organization that God knows firsthand they lost their faithful heart to energize their own dull senses to weigh in on their own deception and lies within this world. Remember, when the Watchtower uses the term "mentally diseased" it's NOT referring to the sanity of a person, like ALL you dense people portray, but it belongs with the "poisoning of the mind" that is reflected upon one's heart. 😏

On the contrary, the org should value the people who can respectfully discuss and critically examine doctrine like what is done here...Berean-like ones that test out the expressions they hear against the Bible. Instead, direction is not up for debate and people are told to even submit to “illogical” direction from the organization. So what the org will become is a bunch of yes-men who don’t know how to think for themselves.

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5 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

So what the org will become is a bunch of yes-men who don’t know how to think for themselves.

Hopefully not! 😕

@JW Insider you are so much better at searching than me. I think I asked you this before, not sure if you answered, but do you remember the WT study article that started of talking about a woman who said she preferred to be told, rather than using her own brain (paraphrased)?

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41 minutes ago, Anna said:

Hopefully not! 😕

@JW Insider you are so much better at searching than me.

I don't remember that. How long ago do you think it was? Was it a study article for sure, or could it have been a person's experience in a Watchtower? We have had several experiences in the middle of Watchtower study articles, too, about young persons who had not yet "made the truth their own" and therefore were not ready for baptism until such time as they proved the truth to themselves.

I see several examples of that, but they don't really fit your context:

*** w07 5/1 p. 26 par. 11 Youths—Pursue Goals That Honor God ***
Many young Christians say that regular personal Bible study has been fundamental to helping them to make the truth their own. Adele, for example, was brought up in a Christian home but had never set any spiritual goals. “My parents took me to the Kingdom Hall,” she relates, “but I did not do personal study or listen at the meetings.” After her sister was baptized, Adele began to take the truth more seriously.

A similar one discusses how young persons need to learn WHY they believe something, not just what they believe, in case they are asked to defend:

*** ws16 September p. 22 par. 7 Young Ones, Strengthen Your Faith ***
7 Is it wrong to ask questions such as, ‘Why do I believe what the Bible says?’ Not at all. Jehovah does not want you to believe something just because others do. He wants you to use your “power of reason” to get to know the Bible and find proof that it truly is from him. The more you know what it says, the stronger your faith in it will be. (Read Romans 12:1, 2; 1 Timothy 2:4.) One way to get to know the Bible is by studying specific subjects that you would like to know more about.

 

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1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

I don't remember that. How long ago do you think it was? Was it a study article for sure, or could it have been a person's experience in a Watchtower? We have had several experiences in the middle of Watchtower study articles, too, about young persons who had not yet "made the truth their own" and therefore were not ready for baptism until such time as they proved the truth to themselves.

I see several examples of that, but they don't really fit your context:

*** w07 5/1 p. 26 par. 11 Youths—Pursue Goals That Honor God ***
Many young Christians say that regular personal Bible study has been fundamental to helping them to make the truth their own. Adele, for example, was brought up in a Christian home but had never set any spiritual goals. “My parents took me to the Kingdom Hall,” she relates, “but I did not do personal study or listen at the meetings.” After her sister was baptized, Adele began to take the truth more seriously.

A similar one discusses how young persons need to learn WHY they believe something, not just what they believe, in case they are asked to defend:

*** ws16 September p. 22 par. 7 Young Ones, Strengthen Your Faith ***
7 Is it wrong to ask questions such as, ‘Why do I believe what the Bible says?’ Not at all. Jehovah does not want you to believe something just because others do. He wants you to use your “power of reason” to get to know the Bible and find proof that it truly is from him. The more you know what it says, the stronger your faith in it will be. (Read Romans 12:1, 2; 1 Timothy 2:4.) One way to get to know the Bible is by studying specific subjects that you would like to know more about.

 

No it wasn't any of those. I am sure it was a study article, second part to a similar topic the previous week. I already searched 2017, 16, 15, and 14....grrrr. Thank you for trying! It definitely mentioned a woman who said she preferred to have somebody tell her how things were, instead of her searching for the answer herself. It may have even been a sister. Not sure....

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1 hour ago, Anna said:

It definitely mentioned a woman who said she preferred to have somebody tell her how things were, instead of her searching for the answer herself. It may have even been a sister.

Ah! I remember it. It wasn't necessarily about a sister at all. All this time I thought it was about a sister in a congregation who relied too much on her husband or something like that.

*** w17 January p. 12 par. 1 Treasure Your Gift of Free Will ***
WHEN faced with making a personal choice, one woman told a friend: “Do not make me think; just tell me what to do. That is easier.” The woman preferred being told what to do instead of using a precious gift from her Creator, the gift of free will. What about you? Do you like making your own decisions, or do you prefer that others decide for you? How do you view the matter of free will?

 

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1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

Ah! I remember it. It wasn't necessarily about a sister at all. All this time I thought it was about a sister in a congregation who relied too much on her husband or something like that.

*** w17 January p. 12 par. 1 Treasure Your Gift of Free Will ***
WHEN faced with making a personal choice, one woman told a friend: “Do not make me think; just tell me what to do. That is easier.” The woman preferred being told what to do instead of using a precious gift from her Creator, the gift of free will. What about you? Do you like making your own decisions, or do you prefer that others decide for you? How do you view the matter of free will?

 

You got it! Thank you!!

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On 7/28/2019 at 5:06 PM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

This is why I prefer to be called just "Rook", (no first or middle name), or JTR ... to keep from being identified with the Apostle James, which would be a stretch of multi-dimensional proportions .... or with Sean Connery , the only REAL James Bond ...... I mean .... besides the Ornithologist ( Bird Watcher, for those in Rio Linda ...) named James Bond, from whom Ian Fleming  the author and creator of the James Bond Character took the name., who wrote several  books on birds that impressed Ian Fleming, also a bird watcher ... ....

Why do you think I got 18 chickens?

They are birds, and a lot cheaper than parrots.

L-TO-R TOMMY, ME, YANNICK  .jpg

                    Left to right .... 006, 007, 009

 

 

Foto muy elegante  :)

 

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On 7/27/2019 at 6:32 AM, Witness said:

over to the court a database of child

These cases have not been proven. Some of them are only allegations.... this would be unfair to those people on the list.  They could also become victims - of persecution.  There is always two sides to any story.

If jehovah does not allow slander of another person, why would he allow people who are suspected of something bad -  without proof - to be publicly slandered.

Here the law of confidentiality applies ...... and by the look of things this has to be fought out in court. The reason being the congress (or regress)  is too busy with theatre while enriching themselves than to do a good days work - to look after seeing to the task of the people.... to change laws to bring true justice.

 

 

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On 1/12/2020 at 7:02 AM, Arauna said:

These cases have not been proven. Some of them are only allegations.... this would be unfair to those people on the list.  They could also become victims - of persecution.  There is always two sides to any story.

If jehovah does not allow slander of another person, why would he allow people who are suspected of something bad -  without proof - to be publicly slandered.

Here the law of confidentiality applies ...... and by the look of things this has to be fought out in court. The reason being the congress (or regress)  is too busy with theatre while enriching themselves than to do a good days work - to look after seeing to the task of the people.... to change laws to bring true justice.

 

 

What are you trying to prove by dragging up old topics ?

Cases cannot be proven unless names are given for police or others to investigate, that is obvious.

By hiding over 20 years of information it shows fear in the GB and it's lawyers. If your GB had any faith at all in God or Christ, it would 'go the extra mile', and try its best to clean up the JW Org. But no, they continue to hide the information. 

 

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1 hour ago, 4Jah2me said:

What are you trying to prove by dragging up old topics ?

Cases cannot be proven unless names are given for police or others to investigate, that is obvious.

By hiding over 20 years of information it shows fear in the GB and it's lawyers. If your GB had any faith at all in God or Christ, it would 'go the extra mile', and try its best to clean up the JW Org. But no, they continue to hide the information. 

 

I have the internet link to the original article published by dailymail.co.uk on this topic, as well as a document about Jehovah's Witnesses' secret data base. But, like you, I also don't believe it right to drag up old matters, which may be read and misunderstood by those who are not baptised Jehovah's Witnesses. 

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2 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

over 20 years of information it shows fear in the GB and it's

Sorry to bring up an old topic but court case is now being fought because mormon church broke confidentiality. ....... it is a ' legal issue' to release confidential info.

Ask Congress to change this law or become an activist against this law.

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1 hour ago, Arauna said:

Sorry to bring up an old topic but court case is now being fought because mormon church broke confidentiality. ....... it is a ' legal issue' to release confidential info.

Ask Congress to change this law or become an activist against this law.

I'm English not American and I try to be no part of that world. Congress means nothing to me.... The Charity Commission did an investigation here in UK and the IICSA will be doing a deeper investigation as well.

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A preliminary hearing took place at 2pm on 23 July 2019 and a further preliminary hearing will be held at 10:30am on 14 January 2020. Two weeks of public hearings will begin on 16 March 2020.

The Inquiry is encouraging all victims and survivors of 

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On 7/27/2019 at 11:25 AM, JOHN BUTLER said:

Fantastic news. Perhaps Almighty God will cleanse the JW Org by removing the GB and replacing them, and removing the lawyers too. If God wants that database handed over it will be. 

I agree with James on one thing 'I am deeply ashamed for the reputation of Jehovah'

Does anyone on here really think this is good for Almighty God ?

Is it good for the preaching of the GOOD NEWS ? 

And do you really think Armageddon is close ? Ah, maybe you think Armageddon will get the GB/JW Org out of this mess.

I think LUKE 17 v 1 fits very well here.  

 “It is unavoidable that causes for stumbling should come. Nevertheless, woe to the one through whom they come!"

@Anna & @TrueTomHarley and others, please get your heads out of the sand and see the true reality of your GB and it's Org. 

The truth is Almighty God has to either cleanse the JW Org, or, start a new one. And the JW Org does have some truth in it, deeply hidden but it's there. 


 

 

Instead of discussing this matter, will it not be better to leave it to Jehovah, the supreme Judge whose laws and judgements are always righteous. (Psalm 119) In his eyes, whoever commits one sin is in effect guilty of all. Compare David's fornication with Bathsheba. Although his repentance was accepted, he had to be punished. (Ex 37:6,7)

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20 hours ago, Colin Browne said:

Instead of discussing this matter, will it not be better to leave it to Jehovah, the supreme Judge whose laws and judgements are always righteous. (Psalm 119) In his eyes, whoever commits one sin is in effect guilty of all. Compare David's fornication with Bathsheba. Although his repentance was accepted, he had to be punished. (Ex 37:6,7)

The sin David committed didn’t affect all of Israel. He was remorseful and we have the record of his heartfelt repentance and mourning before God.   The sin of spiritual adultery by Israel’s leaders, affected all of God’s people, since it was sourced in teachings and idolatry promoted by the leaders themselves.   Because of that, God allowed suffering to come upon them.  The Pharisees in Jesus’ day were adulterers.  Jesus told his listeners to turn to truth, not to tolerate their behavior, or their teachings…not to share in their sins. Those that didn’t listen, lost their lives!

Never does God expect us to sit back and absorb all the evil coming from those who speak it. That is hypocrisy.  The “world” that Jesus preached to, was the Jewish system of things.  In his prayer to God, he said of his disciples,

“I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.  John 17:6

"Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them. 16 For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world. 17 The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever." 1 John 2:15-17

How can we be found acceptable before God if we even remotely entertain the misconduct of leaders ruling over us, who are not in the least repentant for their sins?  To be “no part of the world” in that day, meant rejecting Israel’s sins.  In the world of the organization, it means the same thing, where spiritual "Israel", God's people, resides. 

Then I heard another voice from heaven say:

“‘Come out of her, my people,’
    so that you will not share in her sins,
    so that you will not receive any of her plagues;
for her sins are piled up to heaven,
    and God has remembered her crimes.
Give back to her as she has given;
    pay her back double for what she has done.
    Pour her a double portion from her own cup.
Give her as much torment and grief
    as the glory and luxury she gave herself.
In her heart she boasts,
    ‘I sit enthroned as queen.
I am not a widow;
    I will never mourn.’
Therefore in one day her plagues will overtake her:
    death, mourning and famine.”  Rev 18:4-8

 

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On 1/14/2020 at 1:26 PM, 4Jah2me said:

I've just read the full 70 pages and it looks like a whitewash.

I've read the whole thing too, and put the date 16th March on my calendar. I will try to listen to it like I did with the ARC. 

What's been whitewashed? Can you be more specific?

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On 1/15/2020 at 5:48 AM, Colin Browne said:

Instead of discussing this matter, will it not be better to leave it to Jehovah

It is possible to take this stand. But that has consequences too. Good? Or bad? If rain coming through roof of the house, will leaving thing to something or someone in the future bring to better or worst condition.

God leave earthly things to be earthly human job. With good and bad outcomes. Bible said something like;    When the sentence for a crime is not quickly carried out, people’s hearts are filled with schemes to do wrong.

This mantra,  platitudes - "live it to god", is not proper answer for many things we faced. For some things in life more time is needed, but not in a sense that JW people using this internal proverb with hope how something will be resolved without doing nothing or without interest and efforts for something. Victim need help in a way and quality and quantity that he/she as individual can manage and receive, in time and with time set by these specific individual.   

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8 hours ago, Anna said:

I've read the whole thing too, and put the date 16th March on my calendar. I will try to listen to it like I did with the ARC. 

What's been whitewashed? Can you be more specific?

@Anna  I was hoping the investigation was going to look at each 'religion' separately, but by my understanding it looks as if it is just a blanket / overview of all those 'religions' pushed in together. 

It mentions having more than one person in the witness box at a time and looks like it will just gloss over things. 

For instance it is about Jews, Islam / Muslims, Jehovah's Witnesses and many more....   How is it possible to mix all those people into one investigation ?  

Some of those 'religions' mutilate (FGM) girls private parts, some marry off very young girls to very old men, but they say it IS part of their 'religion' or 'custom'.  They are not denying it. 

Whereas, Jehovah's Witnesses say “Jehovah's Witnesses abhor child abuse in all its forms and do not shield wrongdoers from the ... "

So here we see a totally opposite attitude. A denial rather than admittance........ It is known, whether you wish to believe it or not, that the JW Org hide paedophiles and have hidden CSA in it. (Otherwise there would not be court cases and investigations Earthwide ).  It is known that the JW HQ here in UK did not want to hand over information to the Charity Commission. So it seems to make it obvious that the JW Org does not want to cooperate with any investigation... (Hence their choice in whose statement they are using, see lower down)

As I read it also, the investigation WILL NOT look at past 'happenings and actions'. They only want to know what is  happening now. So how will the investigation have any information on the procedures that have been used in the past ?  I think it is always good to have a bit of the history to examine whether an organisation / religion has a past record of 'doing things properly'. It might help to establish whether that org / religion can be relied upon to 'get it right' in the future. 

Whose statement they are using. The CCJW (JW Org) are using a statement by Mr Paul Gillies who WAS (past tense) a member of the Britain Branch Committee. That man is now safely tucked away in American HQ it seems, as Director of Public Information at 'World HQ'. So, he will not be available for personal face to face questioning. How convenient.  We know that the GB have given permission to people in 'authority within the Org' (including Elders) to TELL LIES.  We know the GB call it Spiritual Warfare.  So, I am quite sure in my own mind that Mr Paul Gillies' statement could easily be full of lies and have GB approval. And as I say he cannot be cross examined / questioned. 

( Please note at this point : I am NOT a fan of Lloyd Evans, and I don't think he will be helpful to the investigation at all. )

All in all it looks to me like a very weak pretence of 'investigating' Child Sexual Abuse.  It looks too frightened to 'ruffle feathers' in NON White / NON British religions such as Jews and Muslims. It is obvious that those Non White / Non British religions / organisations would scream racism or some such excuses, or use the idea of ' freedom of religion' to continue doing harm to children. 

BUT Jehovah's Witnesses are, whether one likes it or not, basically a White Mans religion. ( We needn't go into the past about depicting Jesus as white etc, but point proven. )  By that I mean that JW Org, can't or won't scream racism as an excuse for anything.  I also doubt that here in the UK JWs would cry 'religious discrimination' either. And the way this investigation is being carried out they could not I suppose, because they are just being lumped in the pot with all the rest. 

So what do we have ? We have JW Org lumped in with all the rest, which impairs an investigation into CSA in the JW Org itself. We have, not being able to discuss / show previous processes / procedures of particular cases from the past, which would have been good evidence of wrongful use of scripture and wrongful action by men. We have a statement from a man who no longer resides in the UK (and hasn't done for 18 months at least ) and cannot be cross examined on his statement. We have a GB that gives their permission to tell lies to protect JW Org. 

So a 'false' investigation, a 'fake', a pretence. It will cost a fortune, it will probably upset many in 'those other' 'religions', it will not serve a good purpose to clean up the Org, it will not bring any justice to Victims of CSA, AND, most importantly, it will not bring any praise to Almighty God. 

It would be wonderful if I am wrong and I'd be happy to admit it if I am. And if it could bring praise to God in any way, that would be the best ever result.  Have a good day. 

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7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

This mantra,  platitudes - "live it to god", is not proper answer for many things we faced.

It is entirely a matter of “Is this life all there is”

If one thinks that it is—if one’s sole horizon in life is only for a few decades—the way one approaches many things will be completely different. 

@Annamentioned one victim in the suit who wanted no part of it. He or she wanted to ‘get on with life’ & was content that the perpetrator was punished & and did not feel the desire to blame parties that he thought were not at fault.

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1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

@Annamentioned one victim in the suit who wanted no part of it. He or she wanted to ‘get on with life’ & was content that the perpetrator was punished & and did not feel the desire to blame parties that he thought were not at fault.

This is a good attitude, and is probably expected for one who remains a Witness. But it's also very easy to start thinking that a person who asks for money damages is somehow tainted, or we think they must not believe that this system will be over in a few decades at most.

But we must be ready to square this with the fact that the Watchtower has sued for money damages on a few occasions, and sometimes not just to the guilty parties, but a scattershot suit that becomes a fishing expedition among many different companies to try to put the true story together to see who is responsible. The following was the first of many reports that came up on a Google search of "Watchtower sues over Warwick site "

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