Jump to content

The Librarian

JW OPPOSERS GROUPS

Topic Summary

Created

Last Reply

Replies

Views

The Librarian -
Space Merchant -
387
9235

Top Posters


Recommended Posts

OPPOSERS GROUPS
• Jehovah’s Witnesses and Biblical Discussion Group
• Loyal followers of Jehovah’s Organisation JW (please note the ‘s’ instead of ‘z’ in title)
• Jehovah’s Witnesses Come Out of Her My People
• Jehovah Witness End Time Prophecy
• JW Preachers of God’s Kingdom
• Walk With Jehovah
• AUSTRALIA AND NEW ZEALAND EX-JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES (also Canadian, Portugal, New England, New York, NY Capitol Region, NORTH DAKOTA, ONTARIO, PENNSYLVANIA, Pittsburgh, RHODE ISLAND, SOUTH AFRICA, United Kingdom, U.S. Southern, WASHINGTON, )
• JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES PORTUGAL AND BRAZIL
• Silver Sword, New World Translation
• CHRISTIAN AND JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES BIBLE DISCUSSION GROUP
• Jehovah’s Witnesses History and Beliefs
• YHWH JHVH Jehowah, Jehovah, Yeshuah and Jesus is God the Father
• Jehovah’s Witnesses Worldwide (With Lex Gerald Oineseb Quibuyen as an admin)
• JW Answers
• JW Awake
• JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES HELPING THE UNEMPLOYED
• JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES:COMFORT IN THE DEPRESSION
• JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES: ONLY FOR SINGLE GROUP
• JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES. RUSSIAN
• SERVE JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES IN (ARGENTINA/SPAIN/MEXICO)
• JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES. VIDEOS ONLY
• JEHOVAH’S WINTESSES AND ISLAM
• The Vast Apostate Army
• Theocratic ministry school
• “This Generation Will Not Pass Away’ 100 Year Anniversary
• WORLD UNITED BROTHERHOOD
• JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES. GERMANY
• JHWH/YHWH

• ANY group with the following people in them, either members or admins:
Barry Martin
Augustin Astaciao
Barbara Anderson
Timothy Schultz
Wilbur Schultz
Christian Freedom
Craig Perry Mason Stevens
Marina Lopez
Roy Milton
Sheryl Lamb
Sylvia J. Smith
Zecora Sparlock (also known as Captain Sparlock, or any name with Sparlock in it)
Brenda Lee
Jim Moon
Adam Pryzblyz (or similar spelling)
Mimi Doria
Thomas miner
Wendy Scott

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nobody but nobody has “apostates” like Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is almost as though I am proud of them. Every NT writer wrote about opposition and apostasy. If it happened then, it should happen now. What if there was no opposition today? Wouldn’t you have to wonder why?

Since Witnesses do not seek to evade taxes, they pay into social & police services to a greater proportion than most groups. Since they put into practice Bible principles that improve lives, they draw upon those services to a much lesser degree. They are honest. They don’t resort to violence, either, in contrast to the majority who will when the cause is deemed right. 

It should be taken as more evidence that what Witnesses have is the truth. It would not be so determinedly opposed were that not the case. The opposition to them is hugely disproportional to their “offenses.”

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

It should be taken as more evidence that what Witnesses have is the truth. It would not be so determinedly opposed were that not the case. The opposition to them is hugely disproportional to their “offenses.”

Truth, without Justice, and fairness,.... and mercy .... devalues Truth, to a trivial pursuit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Apostates are known by their words and actions.  It is possible that this group we are presently in would be on somebody's list as well. 

I was warned by a sister about this group  and also by an elder when he read my post on the Internet where I said that we should abandon sayings like "religion is a snare and a racket", seeing that God has overlooked the days of ignorance.  Resurrecting those sayings means that we have not progressed in our understanding. I also said that we are also a religion so that should not make sense. The elder said that "at that time we were not a religion".  Well, that just shows you. 

We have to be firm and sound in mind as to what we will believe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, The Librarian said:

• ANY group with the following people in them, either members or admins:

A few with those names are probably members of their local PTA. Or, if in the United States, the Republican or Democrat political parties.  

Yikes, so many apostate groups.

Seriously, though, I don't know where you found such a list. I haven't heard of hardly any of them. But I do see that many good and active Witnesses have "Theocratic Ministry School" listed as their "school/college/education" in their Facebook profiles. Perhaps they should all be warned?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Outta Here said:

As vitriolic as the spiteful crticisms of apostate opposers are, there is a remarkable tide of recognition of the integrity of Jehovah's Witnesses, even among those who do not share our beliefs.

I see you are trying to bring something positive to a negative post 🙂. The truth is though, apostates are an entirely different category to the average person who never was one of Jehovah's Witnesses. The average non Witness would probably side with us, and not Apostates. Nobody likes bullies, and would wonder why all the vitriol. There are a number of people who are for us, even doctors concerning the blood issue for example. (Found on our website).

Just the other day on the ministry I had a lady who thanked us and told us she admired what we do. This wasn't the first time someone said something like this, and I am sure all of us had someone like that at some time. On the other hand we should expect to be hated (by the public) because Jesus said so. And we should also expect opposition from those who were once among us.

A few days ago I was doing some reading on the Yarovaya Law (the law responsible for all the trouble for the Witnesses in Russia), and found that this law was created by a woman named Irina Yarovaya. This got me to wondering whether her "attack" on religion (besides Orthodox) was actually personal, and whether her attack on evangelism specifically, was even more personal.  Then all kinds of ideas came to mind. Did she have a family member who became a Witness and refused blood, or higher education etc. did she blame the Witnesses? Then a plethora of other situations came to mind but I will not post them here because they could be deemed defamatory. (All I will say is pictures speak a thousand words and Russian women are in a league of their own. I can think of a few lady Bible characters though as well).

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

The elder said that "at that time we were not a religion". 

Did he explain what we were before then? I wonder if Rutherford would think the same today, since we are a religion now. He probably would, because religion IS a snare and a racket, except for the true religion 🙂.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would say it another way: False religion is a snare and a racket.   Not hard to correct. 

Abel had a religion and all of God's servants since.

Definition of religion: Concise Oxford Dictionary: belief in, worship of, or obedience to a supernatural power or powers considered to be divine or to have control of human destiny; 2 any formal or institutionalized expression of such belief, e.g. the Christian religion. ...5. something of overwhelming importance to a person.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Since Witnesses do not seek to evade taxes, they pay into social & police services to a greater proportion than most groups. Since they put into practice Bible principles that improve lives, they draw upon those services to a much lesser degree. They are honest. They don’t resort to violence, either, in contrast to the majority who will when the cause is deemed right. 

It should be taken as more evidence that what Witnesses have is the truth.

Perhaps it would be more "discreet" to not merge automatically this two elements you talking about: moral standards and by law obligated things to do, on one side, with theological subject/term "Truth" or  with spiritual aspects in people's life, on other side.

How to explain this? Children in kindergarten (of any kind i assume, religious, atheistic) are not thought, by their guardians ladies, to still, to lie, to curse, etc. other children and adult people. They received lessons  to be nice, peaceful, honest, sincere, to share things, etc. By this, they shows qualities as every very moral atheist or very moral religious individual.

To what "truth" this kindergarten group belongs?! :)) Or any other religious and non religious group in the world that reflects this moral and not only moral but spiritual qualities in the same time?! Because good moral behavior is based on good spiritual foundations. In this aspect, "spiritual" not necessary including how individual must believe in God. Because God's love and all moral and spiritual qualities is genetically incorporated in individual because of miracle act when God created people.

That is why atheist people must not "belong to" particular ideology, false or true, to be bad or good. That is why religious people, must not "belong to" particular religion, false or true, to be bad or good.

That is why JW members with their good behavior, not proving automatically how because of their belonging to particular Organization their religion is true. They not proving issue - how specific theology and doctrines is truth itself. 

It would be good to separate things that are not the same. You don't need to be religious to be moral and obey law in the same time. 

   

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, Anna said:

This got me to wondering whether her "attack" on religion (besides Orthodox) was actually personal, and whether her attack on evangelism specifically, was even more personal

No. Unless she is very very subtle. The main thrust of the laws do not even specifically target religion, though she may be no friend of it. Others have point it that way.

As to our reputation in the general world, I would put it: “When perusing religion, look for the people who are individually praised but collectively despised.”

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Ah! Now I know where that "NI" came from in your Scrabble game. It was for "Needs Improvement"!

Grumble, grumble. Do you think I can get my Scrabble-cheating brother to take even the slightest interest in spiritual things? But when it serves his purpose, suddenly he becomes a Fred Franz.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:
5 hours ago, Anna said:

This got me to wondering whether her "attack" on religion (besides Orthodox) was actually personal, and whether her attack on evangelism specifically, was even more personal

No. Unless she is very very subtle. The main thrust of the laws do not even specifically target religion, though she may be no friend of it. Others have point it that way.

It doesn't have to be the main thrust does it?

You have probably researched this subject a lot more than I have in view of your book about it . I do know that the main thrust of the law is counter-terrorism, however, it appears that certain amendments to it definitely target evangelism, in other words "restrictions on sharing beliefs, including where and who may share them" and "the amendments to the Religion Law restrict those who can share beliefs to people with permission from members of state-registered religious groups and organisations" and "the amendments also restrict the beliefs that can be shared, specifies a restricted list of places where beliefs may be shared, and explicitly bans any beliefs from being shared in residential buildings, or on another association's property without permission" quotes from

    Hello guest!
.  I am sure there is more, but to me just this, appears not even subtle, since there would be no problem IF permission was given. The question is, in the case of Jehovah's Witnesses, why isn't permission given?

It looks a lot like somebody was doing somebody else a favor....in return for other favors perhaps? Politicians are just people after all...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On the internet, the above list can be a lot bigger. Satan has had a good control over apostates. Then again, it wouldn't be the end of days without them, would it. If he has influence here, there is no stoppage in those groups.

1.       Silent-Lamb

2.       Advocates for Jehovah’s Witness reform on blood (AJWRB).

3.       Barbara Anderson’s own website. The most evil female ever to enter Bethel only to choose fame. Fame that never happened. I mentioned it, since I didn’t see her website on the list.

4.       The Catholic Church. It includes the majority of traditional churches.

5.       Friends of Jehovah’s Witnesses (Formerly known as the Jehovah's Witness reform movement).

Many, Many more. Including some here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, JW Insider said:
2 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

I would say it another way: False religion is a snare and a racket.   Not hard to correct. 

That's true, but it would not attract as much attention. Rutherford had been a political marketer before following Russell/WT/Bible Students. This is why he would ADV/ADV/ADV. And why gimmicks like putting David and Abraham on a property deed were important to him. This is why he used the title "Judge."

But I think it was Covington who figured out that he could do much better in the courts if we agreed to be recognized as a religion. Religious rights were easier to fight for than unspecified rights or civil rights of a group who would otherwise be seen only as "peddlers." Tresspassing laws were decidedly against peddlers, but the United States was being recognized in the twentieth century as much more amenable to a variety of religions, and we weren't the only religion asking for (and getting) expanded rights.

Thanks for this part of the history of the restoration of true worship.  However, it also brings out my point that we should retire this kind of talk, since today we certainly believe that Jehovah always had witnesses, and we are not a new religion, but a restoration of true worship.  In my opinion, I certainly think we were in religion in those days but not aware of our rights - or our rights were not quotable in the society of the day. Jesus was not recognized as a true prophet or as the coming Messiah in his time either, although he certainly was.    If we go back to this kind of talk, then we should not talk about the true religion, restoration of true worship or Jehovah's Witnesses is not a new religion, which points we had several tracts and books relaying  over the years in modern times.  For example:

*** rs p. 202-p. 203 Jehovah’s Witnesses ***
How old is the religion of Jehovah’s Witnesses?


According to the Bible, the line of witnesses of Jehovah reaches back to faithful Abel. Hebrews 11:4–12:1 says: “By faith Abel offered God a sacrifice of greater worth than Cain . . . By faith Noah, after being given divine warning of things not yet beheld, showed godly fear . . . By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed in going out into a place he was destined to receive as an inheritance . . . By faith Moses, when grown up, refused to be called the son of the daughter of Pharaoh, choosing to be ill-treated with the people of God rather than to have the temporary enjoyment of sin . . . So, then, because we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also put off every weight and the sin that easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us.”

With reference to Jesus Christ, the Bible states: “These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God.” Of whom was he a witness? He himself said that he made his Father’s name manifest. He was the foremost witness of Jehovah.—Rev. 3:14; John 17:6.

Interestingly, some of the Jews asked whether the activity of Jesus Christ represented “a new teaching.” (Mark 1:27) Later, some Greeks thought the apostle Paul was introducing a “new teaching.” (Acts 17:19, 20) It was new to the ears of those who were hearing it, but the important thing was that it was the truth, in full harmony with God’s Word.

The modern-day history of Jehovah’s Witnesses began with the forming of a group for Bible study in Allegheny, Pennsylvania, U.S.A., in the early 1870’s. At first they were known only as Bible Students, but in 1931 they adopted the Scriptural name Jehovah’s Witnesses. (Isa. 43:10-12) Their beliefs and practices are not new but are a restoration of first-century Christianity."  End quote

 

Bold text mine
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Anna said:

I looks a lot like somebody was doing somebody else a favor....in return for other favors perhaps?

I would certainly never say that it was impossible. I took the word of some what I thought were respectable sources that the laws were not aimed primarily at religion. But sometimes even respectable sources don’t know their knee from their elbow.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

*** rs p. 202-p. 203 Jehovah’s Witnesses ***
How old is the religion of Jehovah’s Witnesses?

 

2 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

The modern-day history of Jehovah’s Witnesses began with the forming of a group for Bible study in Allegheny, Pennsylvania, U.S.A., in the early 1870’s. At first they were known only as Bible Students, but in 1931 they adopted the Scriptural name Jehovah’s Witnesses. (Isa. 43:10-12) Their beliefs and practices are not new but are a restoration of first-century Christianity."  End quote

What a remarkable introduction for the restoration of "first-century Christianity" in 1931.  One to put down in the history books for all JWs. 

Something to be proud of?... 

The interview with J.F. Rutherford that appeared
in the San Diego Sun, March 15, 1930

"But how will you identify King David or any of the other representatives from God?' Rutherford was asked. 'I thought all that out before I wrote the deed,' the judge replied with a twinkle in his gray eyes. 'I realized the possibility of some old codger turning up bright and early some morning and declaring he was David. The men whom I have designated to test the identity of these men are officers of my societies and have consecrated themselves to the Lord, they will be divinely authorized to know impostors from the real princes.'"

Time Magazine of Mar 31, 1930 wrote: "Judge Joseph Frederick Rutherford 60, lives in a ten room Spanish mansion, No 4440 Braeburn Rd, San Diego, Calif. Last week he deeded No 4440 Braeburn Road, and adjacent two car garage and a pair of automobiles to King David, Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthae, Samuel and sundry other mighties of ancient Palestine. Positive is he that they are shortly to reappear on earth, Said he: 'I have purposely landscaped the place with palm and olive trees so that these princes of the universe will feel at home ..".

The San Diego Sun of Jan 9 1931 wrote: "A gaunt unshaven tramp has been the lone claimant for the $75,000 Southern Californian mansion of David, king of Israel, since it was deeded to the Biblical character a year ago. This was revealed today by Judge James Rutherford, temporary owner of the luxuriantly furnished Spanish type mansion at 440 Braeburn Rd in the exclusive Kensington Heights district. In one of the oddest deeds ever recorded, Rutherford, president of the International Bible Students Association and the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, has placed in trust the magnificent estate for ancient kings and prophets of Israel. The slayer of Goliath and his companions may occupy the 10 room modern home with it's landscaped gardens and patio as soon as their credentials are approved by Rutherford and officials of his societies, divinely authorised to recognise them.

One morning as I was going from the house to the garage, a queer looking creature approached me, tipped his dirty hat and cried 'Howdy Judge, I'm David' 'Go and tell that to the winds', I told him and he left without arguing the matter. I could see at a glance that he was not David. He didn't look like I knew David would look.' Asked how he expected David and his distinguished brethren to look, Rutherford, without hesitation, opened his huge Bible and pointed to a verse which said that the Princes of the Universe would be risen from the dead 'as perfect men'. 'I interpret that to mean', the tall dignified Judge declared, 'that David, Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jepthae, Joseph and Samuel will be sent here to wrench the world from Satan's grasp, clothed in modern garb as we are, and able, with little effort, to speak our tongue.' Rutherford pictured the arrival of the biblical delegation perhaps in frock coats, high hats, canes and spats.

At Beth Sarim (House of Princes) as Rutherford has named his mansion, David will find the most modern appliances that science has devised. When the distinguished guests walk up the circular stairway to the second floor, they will find a large office with red leather chairs and shiny flat topped desk with inverted lighting. Even French telephones await the touch of the princes. Opening a wide door, the native sons of Palestine will behold a large bathroom, resplendent in shiny black tile with needle shower and an amply filled medicine chest. What a thrill giant shouldered Samson, who wrecked a palace with his bare fists might find in the gold safety razor and strop! Rutherford built the second floor bedroom, which he temporarily occupies, large in order to accommodate several of the expected owners. With wide pane windows that look out on the purple Cuyamacas to the East and California's first mission to the north, the bedroom is almost severe in it's furnishings. The rulers of the universe will have simple tastes, the judge apparently believes, although the austere end tables sported gaily covered fiction magazines. Rutherford has imported some Koniach, Wasser from Cologne, Germany to freshen the princely faces after shaving. A black skull cap hangs over one of the bedposts.

The coming of David and his companions will be the greatest news story of the ages, Rutherford predicted. 'I am not a publicity seeker,' Rutherford said with a twinkle in his kindly brown eyes, 'but I feel that the world should know about their arrival. It will be a great news story.' Word of his 'House of king David' has reached into every corner of the world, the judge stated. 'Everywhere I went people asked me about this place,' Rutherford said. 'In Chicago a millionaire manufacturer offered to build another house for David, but I declined the offer. 'Literally thousands have driven here to see this place,' Rutherford continued. 'Many have come to the door and my secretary has shown them about the place.' The patio with it's silver pool and olive and palm trees is gay with flowers. Down toward the canyon, paths have been landscaped to allow David and his friends to walk in meditation. Many of the fruits and trees, native to their Palestine, will greet the rulers when they arrive. In the two car garage next door stands a new, yellow 16 cylinder coupe which will be turned over to the rulers along with all the personal property on the place. 'Everything will be theirs, the house, the land, the furnishings and even the clothes if they need them,' Judge Rutherford said. 'What will I do? Oh, don't worry about me. I'll manage somehow.' the judge smiled. He had another 'Watch Tower' residence on Staten Island and practically an entire floor at Bethel. The seven famous men will not have long to rest at their San Diego estate because they soon will lead the forces of the Lord to vanquish the minions of Satan at the battle of Armageddon, Rutherford believed. 'But they will win out. The Lord will punish the devil and will show that the preachers and the politicians have been giving the people false counsel,' Rutherford said confidently. Rutherford will sail May 9 for Europe where he will speak before conventions in Berlin, Paris and London."

 

As my rather frank mother would have said, “the guy is a crackpot”.   

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

    Hello guest!

8 hours ago, Witness said:
10 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

The modern-day history of Jehovah’s Witnesses began with the forming of a group for Bible study in Allegheny, Pennsylvania, U.S.A., in the early 1870’s. At first they were known only as Bible Students, but in 1931 they adopted the Scriptural name Jehovah’s Witnesses. (Isa. 43:10-12) Their beliefs and practices are not new but are a restoration of first-century Christianity."  End quote

It is impressive how Russell and Rutherford doing "fine job" and have been fine example of Opposers to established religions of their period of time. Reasoning book calling this two men as restoration leaders, who Reinstated true doctrines and true religion as it was in 1st Century.

But, Jesus, as Opposer to Jew Religion established system, never mentioned that it would be needed to build house with olive trees for Ancient Princes in 1929. 

As curiosity, what would people say when those Ancient Princes would ask for women. Few for each of them?

What was the subject, content of Rutherford's effort to restore, with building house for ANCIENT princes? Christianity or Old/New Jew Kingdom? 

Comfortable San Diego accommodation  in 1929 is Type and Modern Warwick is Anti-Type for GB Princes :))  

What about 1931 period doctrines and practices? To what sort of "restoration" do they belong? To which period of time do they belong? To 1st Century Christianity time? If they do belong to that period, why they are not stayed as actual beliefs and practice of modern JW? If Modern JW of our time acting as Opposers to practices and beliefs of Restoration in Russell' and Rutherford' time .... than who is True Restorer of 1st century Christianity inside WT Society and JW org?    

 

Does this statement is really valid from today's standpoint?  "Their beliefs and practices are not new but are a restoration of first-century Christianity."  - Reasoning Book quote

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have been able to locate  an eight minute and 38 second recording  of Brother Dave Gardner, from the 1960's whose historical research contributed greatly to our current understandings and perspectives.

This was before the Society banned cigarettes, later if memory serves, in the early 1970's.

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

What about 1931 period doctrines and practices? To what sort of "restoration" do they belong? To which period of time do they belong? To 1st Century Christianity time? If they do belong to that period, why they are not stayed as actual beliefs and practice of modern JW? If Modern JW of our time acting as Opposers to practices and beliefs of Restoration in Russell' and Rutherford' time .... than who is True Restorer of 1st century Christianity inside WT Society and JW org?    

 

Julius Caesar--Brother Dave Gardner.mp4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Proclaimers of God’s Kingdom p. 89  (

    Hello guest!
)

“House of the Princes”

Brother Rutherford had a severe case of pneumonia after his release from unjust imprisonment in 1919. Thereafter, he had only one good lung. In the 1920’s, under a doctor’s treatment, he went to San Diego, California, and the doctor urged him to spend as much time as possible there. From 1929 on, Brother Rutherford spent the winters working at a San Diego residence he had named Beth-Sarim. Beth-Sarim was built with funds that were a direct contribution for that purpose. The deed, which was published in full in “The Golden Age” of March 19, 1930, conveyed this property to J. F. Rutherford and thereafter to the Watch Tower Society.

Concerning Beth-Sarim, the book “Salvation,” published in 1939, explains: “The Hebrew words ‘Beth Sarim’ mean ‘House of the Princes’; and the purpose of acquiring that property and building the house was that there might be some tangible proof that there are those on earth today who fully believe God and Christ Jesus and in His kingdom, and who believe that the faithful men of old will soon be resurrected by the Lord, be back on earth, and take charge of the visible affairs of earth.”

A few years after Brother Rutherford’s death, the board of directors of the Watch Tower Society decided to sell Beth-Sarim. Why? “The Watchtower” of December 15, 1947, explained: “It had fully served its purpose and was now only serving as a monument quite expensive to keep; our faith in the return of the men of old time whom the King Christ Jesus will make princes in ALL the earth (not merely in California) is based, not upon that house Beth-Sarim, but upon God’s Word of promise.” 

    Hello guest!

[Footnote]

At the time, it was believed that faithful men of old times, such as Abraham, Joseph, and David, would be resurrected before the end of this system of things and would serve as “princes in all the earth,” in fulfillment of 

    Hello guest!
. This view was adjusted in 1950, when further study of the Scriptures indicated that those earthly forefathers of Jesus Christ would be resurrected after Armageddon.—See 
    Hello guest!
.

 

Apparently, this crazy endeavor of Rutherford's, is excused because the house "fully served its purpose", as a "monument" "that there there might be tangible proof of a belief held out by JWs today.  

The Bible's promises were not enough to put faith in.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Witness said:

Apparently, this crazy endeavor of Rutherford's, is excused because the house "fully served its purpose", as a "monument" "that there there might be tangible proof of a belief held out by JWs today.  

The Bible's promises were not enough to put faith in.  

I'm borrowing a good scripture used on another topic, that appropriately fits Watchtower's own meager attempt to portray  Rutherford's antics as having a valid purpose; also Rutherford's spiritual state of mind when producing this purposeful "monument". 

They know God, but they do not give him the honor that belongs to him, nor do they thank him. Instead, their thoughts have become complete nonsense, and their empty minds are filled with darkness.  Rom 1:21

If someone's mind is filled with such insane darkness, can it also contain the authentic light of truth? 

Do not try to work together as equals with unbelievers, for it cannot be done. How can right and wrong be partners? How can light and darkness live together?  2 Cor 6:14

Does any JW here realize Rutherford was a false prophet?  And, can a false prophet aid in the "restoration of first-century Christianity"?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Witness said:

They know God, but they do not give him the honor that belongs to him, nor do they thank him. Instead, their thoughts have become complete nonsense, and their empty minds are filled with darkness.  Rom 1:21

Well, according to WT published evidence there are few "not faithful and discreet" reasons for San Diego Beth-Sarim house: 

1) Rutherford had a severe case of pneumonia ...

2) Under a doctor’s treatment, he went to San Diego, California, and the doctor urged him to spend as much time as possible there. 

3) Rutherford and his companion brothers have had religious fixation (persistent thought) about Kingdom and resurrection of past people based on fiction.

4) Explanation in magazine speaking how house fully served its purpose, but they must sell this too much expensive  "monument". We see how "Purpose" of that building has nothing with real spirituality as Jesus presented it, in his life time on Earth.  

5) Footnote in WT magazine said: At the time, it was believed ... This is one more prove in lines of proves, how WT Society and people who run this Organization, inventing teachings and doctrines

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

5) Footnote in WT magazine said: At the time, it was believed ... This is one more prove in lines of proves, how WT Society and people who run this Organization, inventing teachings and doctrines

What it proves is that when it is clear they have erred, interpreting scripture incorrectly, they admit it in print and move on—the very opposite of the line you and Witness are peddling that they hide their mistakes at all costs.

The only one who says that it is impermissible for humans to err is you. They have never taken that position.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

TTH:  "What it proves is that when it is clear they have erred, interpreting scripture incorrectly, they admit it in print and move on—the very opposite of the line you and Witness are peddling that they hide their mistakes at all costs."

Oh! So it was really a ‘monumental’ ERROR!  That makes more sense and certainly is backed up by the newspaper articles that I never knew about while a JW.  The Proclaimer's Book "proclaims" only the bare bones, purposefully skipping the embarrassing meat of the story.   

"The only one who says that it is impermissible for humans to err is you. They have never taken that position."

Yesterday, prophetic failures were blamed on the members who took any stock in their teachings. Today, they admit that they make mistakes from time to time...

1 - because God never "inspired" them.

2 - because Jesus never promised them perfect food. 

But, yeah, they make mistakes, because of God and Jesus.  Apparently, God and Christ made them error.  What a childlike excuse.  

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Explanation in magazine speaking how house fully served its purpose, but they must sell this too much expensive  "monument". We see how "Purpose" of that building has nothing with real spirituality as Jesus presented it, in his life time on Earth.  

…because if it did have an everlasting spiritual purpose, they would have held onto it no matter the cost. It’s sort of like other WT buildings dedicated to God, for the life of their use.  No authentic spirituality is involved, except for a deceitful one. 

3 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Footnote in WT magazine said: At the time, it was believed ... This is one more prove in lines of proves, how WT Society and people who run this Organization, inventing teachings and doctrines

If a JW went rogue in the congregation, “inventing teachings and doctrines” which none really, could compare to Rutherford and Russell’s teachings,  that one would no longer be called a “brother”.  He would be removed.  Yet, Russel and Rutherford, the backbones leading to the birth of the organization are respected Brothers, leaders. If today’s “faithful and discreet slave” supports its historical false teachers, by highlighting their material (in a selective way and to their own advantage), are they not also false teachers themselves, by advocating these men as stalwart and faithful individuals, who enhance the organization today?  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, Witness said:

Something to be proud of?... 

The interview with J.F. Rutherford that appeared
in the San Diego Sun, March 15, 1930

Interesting opinions on a subject those who wrote these pieces weren’t that familiar with scripture. I guess they just needed fillers.

Should anyone calling themselves Christian go against Jesus works just to satisfy their own ambition?

    Hello guest!

11

    Hello guest!

12

    Hello guest!

This should be enough proof, how Satan is in command by those he chooses as puppets.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, divergenceKO said:

Interesting opinions on a subject those who wrote these pieces weren’t that familiar with scripture. I guess they just needed fillers.

Should anyone calling themselves Christian go against Jesus works just to satisfy their own ambition?

Sir, surely you know that God’s Word does not adhere to folly; but rather, condemns it. 

Do not answer a fool according to his folly,
    or you yourself will be just like him.  Prov 26:4

I saw that wisdom is better than folly, just as light is better than darkness.  Eccl 2:13

And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them.  Eph 5:11

Then the Lord said, “These prophets are telling lies in my name. I did not send them or tell them to speak. I did not give them any messages. They prophesy of visions and revelations they have never seen or heard. They speak foolishness made up in their own lying hearts.  Jer 14:14

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@TrueTomHarley Unfortunately some forget that imperfect man can err and or just simply ignore the fact to make a lowkey not as educated statement.

What I do find ironic is that someone people don't agree with a lot of the opposers and even some of them are against one another. 

Annnnnnd there are those who don't understand what "Christian" means too jajaja.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, divergenceKO said:
On 9/27/2019 at 10:30 PM, Witness said:

The interview with J.F. Rutherford that appeared
in the San Diego Sun, March 15, 1930

Interesting opinions on a subject those who wrote these pieces weren’t that familiar with scripture.

I think how we don't need to have high expectations from San Diego Sun reporter to be "familiar" with Scripture. But that is of no surprise, because Judge Rutherford showed lack of "familiarity" with Scripture too, when he made plans to build Beth-Sarim.

"He that speaketh evil of his brother, judgeth his brother; speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law" - James 4

I would go a little further with meaning of this verse you used, and not with obvious verbatim understanding about "not judging other people". Wording "The Law" have wider meaning and not just God's command about what is forbidden and what is allowed to do. "The Law" is in fact entire content of Bible in which is reflection of God's thoughts, wisdom, prophets, lessons, His will, past and future. 

In that context of wider picture about Word He gave in Bible, i would say how misinterpretation made by anyone, or in this example by WT Society, and particularly by 3rd President of WT, "Judge Rutherford", who gave wrong meaning to Bible verses, we see how he has done exactly what you emphasized is bad. Judge Rutherford is that one who "judged the law" with his absolutely false proclamation (if you want, read this as apostate or perhaps demonic inspired revelation) about "Ancient Princes" who will soon be resurrected and come to be his guest in Beth-Sarim. What is the point:

1)  he "judged the law" by giving false meaning to words of God.

2)  he (and other under his influence) "judged his brothers" who were not accepted his teachings, in that period.  

Conclusion we can make today is similar. If GB "judging the law" with error, wrong, false interpretations and "judge you" if you are not willing to accept such ideology, than we have clear picture of  modern fulfillment on James 4. :))

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Equivocation said:

Unfortunately some forget that imperfect man can err and or just simply ignore the fact to make a lowkey not as educated statement.

Would you call this an “educated statement”?

On 9/27/2019 at 1:30 PM, Witness said:

The seven famous men will not have long to rest at their San Diego estate because they soon will lead the forces of the Lord to vanquish the minions of Satan at the battle of Armageddon, Rutherford believed. 'But they will win out. The Lord will punish the devil and will show that the preachers and the politicians have been giving the people false counsel,' Rutherford said confidently.

We’re talking about a religious leader of “Israel”, who is to represent God in truth.  JWs were to respect this individual, as well as his teachings.  Are you saying man’s word trumps God’s word?  When does God’s word trump man’s?  When a church in “Christendom” utters a prophesy that fails to come true?

Although you believe all the historical failed doctrine are errors that are to be forgiven, God’s word takes a different view when it comes to His people.

But any prophet who falsely claims to speak in My name or who speaks in the name of another god must die.’

21 “But you may wonder, ‘How will we know whether or not a prophecy is from the Lord?’ 22 If the prophet speaks in the Lord’s name but His prediction does not happen or come true, you will know that the Lord did not give that message. That prophet has spoken without My authority and need not be feared.  Deut 18:20-22

Jehovah’s Witnesses have joined this list: 

    Hello guest!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/27/2019 at 10:47 AM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

trivial pursuit.

Full justice in this world is not possible. And those who feel entitled to wrongdoing and still be accepted as brothers will be the first to cry "injustice".  

Thanks to Jehovah,  in his wisdom he will be the final judge and compensator.  If you were really treated unfairly - he will compensate you - that is if you really believe he exists and is the rewarder of unselfish suffering.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/28/2019 at 12:30 AM, Witness said:

As my rather frank mother would have said, “the guy is a crackpot”.   

I just don't get people who quote things out of historical context and evaluate it by today's modern standards.  It is a bending of the truth.

If I quote Franklin, Wilson, Rooseveldt out of historical context then people will call me a bender of historical context.

By today's standards a "scholar" that evaluates quotes out of historical context is also a  crackpot.

Most people in USA in this time did not even think of giving black people human rights..... and there are so many other things I can mention...... that were totally different in society then - so please get real. ...... 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, Arauna said:

I just don't get people who quote things out of historical context and evaluate it by today's modern standards.  It is a bending of the truth.

Do you have proof that the articles quoted are out of historical context?  What about the Proclaimer's Book that I quoted?  Was that not enough historical context for you?    Or, is the truth of the matter, bothersome?  Does it change the perspective that Rutherford was a false prophet per God's ancient words spelled out in the Bible?  It appears that God's  words on identifying false prophets, as well as Jesus' warnings about them, have been taken out of context by you, and the organization; and evaluated by their "today's modern standards".  

Perhaps, it is time for JWs to get real and look at their history,  square in the face, and stop making excuses for false, failed, prophesy  and changed teachings, that have paved their road and reputation as an organization.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Considering that my mother was a young adult when Rutherford built his "monument", the term "crackpot", (correctly spelled with a hyphen)  was well in use; and, if she did hear of his folly, she most certainly would have used the term, "crack-pot" during that day.  Her mother had a full library of Rutherford's publications, only because she took pity on the Bible Students and bought whatever they were peddling at the moment.    Did my mother have the full historical context of the era?  She may have, with such a library at her fingertips.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/2/2019 at 4:53 AM, Witness said:

articles

Yes- you are judging historical sayings it by modern standards and expect perfection. 

All I know is there is no other religion teaching the name of Jehovah all over the earth.

Other Christian denominations believe in the immortality of the soul and believe that Jesus did not put his soul in death (Isaiah 53) . Hence they really do not believe that Jesus really died for all......and only after death  Jesus received immortality as a reward for his faithfulness to his father.

They do not understand that the kingdom will be a real government which will restore the earth......and we should be politically neutral. Most Christian's are quick to vote and grab their guns.... There are tons of other basic teachings which only JWs teach which are crucial to have a good understanding of what God and jesus did for us, so we can build a good relationship with God.  Thanks to the continued preaching efforts of JWs, I learnt the TRUTH.

Whatever the human flaws of our brothers 80 years ago or even 100 years ago, I always remember that Jehovah used Israel in his purpose and they were for sure also a bunch of imperfect men....... why ..... groups of men constantly thought they were better than Moses - and paid the penalty...... similar to what you are constantly doing.  

Moses did not realize that his son should have been circumcised - his wife saved the son's life.  Moses did not know all even though he was the mediator of the new covenant and went into the mountain.  He came back with his face shining, saw the glory of Jehovah as transmitted by angels.  He was also flawed and made mistakes...... 

You only focus on the mistakes and not the undeniable  truths that are taught by JWs. You use the bible and history as a misleading weapon.  I have seen your writings...... you do not fool me.  Nothing honest there but an accuser of our brothers day and night.   

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎9‎/‎28‎/‎2019 at 11:28 AM, TrueTomHarley said:

What it proves is that when it is clear they have erred, interpreting scripture incorrectly, they admit it in print and move on—the very opposite of the line you and Witness are peddling that they hide their mistakes at all costs.

The only one who says that it is impermissible for humans to err is you. They have never taken that position.

Where do they say they erred?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Arauna said:

Yes- you are judging historical sayings it by modern standards and expect perfection. 

All I know is there is no other religion teaching the name of Jehovah all over the earth.

Other Christian denominations believe in the immortality of the soul and believe that Jesus did not put his soul in death (Isaiah 53) . Hence they really do not believe that Jesus really died for all......and only after death  Jesus received immortality as a reward for his faithfulness to his father.

They do not understand that the kingdom will be a real government which will restore the earth......and we should be politically neutral. Most Christian's are quick to vote and grab their guns.... There are tons of other basic teachings which only JWs teach which are crucial to have a good understanding of what God and jesus did for us, so we can build a good relationship with God.  Thanks to the continued preaching efforts of JWs, I learnt the TRUTH.

Whatever the human flaws of our brothers 80 years ago or even 100 years ago, I always remember that Jehovah used Israel in his purpose and they were for sure also a bunch of imperfect men....... why ..... groups of men constantly thought they were better than Moses - and paid the penalty...... similar to what you are constantly doing.  

Moses did not realize that his son should have been circumcised - his wife saved the son's life.  Moses did not know all even though he was the mediator of the new covenant and went into the mountain.  He came back with his face shining, saw the glory of Jehovah as transmitted by angels.  He was also flawed and made mistakes...... 

You only focus on the mistakes and not the undeniable  truths that are taught by JWs. You use the bible and history as a misleading weapon.  I have seen your writings...... you do not fool me.  Nothing honest there but an accuser of our brothers day and night.   

 

 

If that is all you know, then you know very little.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/29/2019 at 11:26 AM, Srecko Sostar said:

because Judge Rutherford showed lack of "familiarity" with Scripture too, when he made plans to build Beth-Sarim.

Perhaps if you become more familiar with the Watchtower history, you will find, when Rutherford was imprisoned by the behest of the Catholic Church, Bro. Rutherford developed a pulmonary problem in prison. His doctor urged him to live in a clearer climate. Many brothers that considered Rutherford not just an insightful person but a friend as well, built Beth-Sarim for Brother Rutherford. Not the Watchtower, NOT Rutherford.

Your speculation then, becomes impractical. Now if you are suggesting how Brother Rutherford personally "felt" if one day the ancient prophets would suddenly walk on this earth once again? He would offer his house to have them feel welcomed just as those in ancient times offered their homes to weary travelers, I would offer my home for the same reason.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Matthew9969 said:
On 9/28/2019 at 1:28 PM, TrueTomHarley said:

What it proves is that when it is clear they have erred, interpreting scripture incorrectly, they admit it in print and move on—the very opposite of the line you and Witness are peddling that they hide their mistakes at all costs.

The only one who says that it is impermissible for humans to err is you. They have never taken that position.

Read more  

Where do they say they erred?

The very comment of mine that you quote gives an example of one. Go back and read it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/3/2019 at 5:20 AM, Arauna said:

Whatever the human flaws of our brothers 80 years ago or even 100 years ago, I always remember that Jehovah used Israel in his purpose and they were for sure also a bunch of imperfect men....... why ..... groups of men constantly thought they were better than Moses - and paid the penalty...... similar to what you are constantly doing.  

 

The human flaws continue down to this day. WT doctrine is not truth.   Your own leaders say they make errors in doctrine.  What’s around the corner?   They baited you with truth, then fed you lies called truth. Rev 8:10,11; Heb 12:15  We were warned of captivity to “empty philosophy”, a deviation from the teachings of Christ, but JWs continue drinking it in.  Col 2:8; Matt 24:4,5; Rev 13:10; 18:3

What is preached during the last days to “Israel”?  Matt 10:23

2 Thess 2:3,4:Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.”

Christ calls his servants to expose the man of lawlessness who oppresses the anointed members of Christ’s Body/Temple of God.   This is the message.  Rev 11:1-3   You speak of those who stood up against Moses, as if the organization and its leaders are another "Moses” and the nation of Israel. The comparison is so often made, but its origin is from your leaders; of which I am very sorry.  Moses is so much more in the limelight than Christ Jesus, since the GB compare themselves to Moses as well as the apostles...when necessary to support their spurious role.    It is your leaders who are standing up against the Son of God by replacing the priesthood, with “Gentiles”/elders who “set themselves up” to rule over the anointed Temple of God. 1 Cor 3:16,17; Rev 13:5-7   My gosh, do you really believe that elders have God’s authority to teach, judge and disfellowship His own priesthood of “kings”? Mal 2:7; 1 Pet 2:5,9; Eph 2:20-22; Rev 5:9,10

Ezek 44:8; Num 18:7

 And that’s okay with JWs…without considering God’s word; His view of His “special possession” and what to expect of them.   This was Korah’s desire also, to do things his way, not God’s way.  

Your leaders make their rules and regulations totally contradictory of God’s, which includes idolatry toward an earthly organization that you believe brings salvation.  Col 2:20-23  Even through scriptures, that you say you believe whole-heartedly  in, we see that  Christ is salvation, not an earthly organization.  Act 4:12; John 10:7-10  Christ and the Father.  Who are not attached to earthly things. Luke 12:34  Who have an organization, which is the TEMPLE/”144,000”/Bride/New Jerusalem/Holy City.  They have had it since the first century.  Your organization is a little more than a hundred years old and JWs believe it is what God NOW wants?

And you believe God turns a blind eye to all that the Watchtower has done?   He doesn’t. For anyone who has eyes that see, it’s time to get out of the Watchtower.  Matt 24:15,16; Luke 17:26-37  

The Watchtower's existence was foretold by both Daniel and John.  We're here; the fourth Beast/organization has trampled the priesthood, allowed by a false prophet/Beast/Harlot. Rev 13:15; 16:13,14; 17:1  Revelation concerns God's wayward people, NOT Christendom.  And, if you recall, many; no, the majority, in the nation of Israel who continually followed their own thinking and worshiped false gods, lost their lives.  God removed His protection and allowed the nations to step in, causing oppression, and suffering.   Our God and His decrees, His judgment and His laws have not changed, but are fulfilled in Christ - the Head of the Temple of God.  The same Temple that is replaced by an organization in Satan's realm.  

Rev 18:4-8; Rev 19:20

2 Thess 2:9-12:  The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

edited

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/3/2019 at 5:20 AM, Arauna said:

You only focus on the mistakes and not the undeniable  truths that are taught by JWs. You use the bible and history as a misleading weapon.  I have seen your writings...... you do not fool me.  Nothing honest there but an accuser of our brothers day and night.   

 

 

When we make excuses for men who have misled millions with doctrinal lies (because failed doctrine is a lie), who are we supporting; the God of Truth, or the god of the lie?  1 Thess 2:13  When men say they represent Christ, but fail to provide millions of people with true doctrine (“this generation”/thousand years, the true Temple of God…) and we accept their fallacious excuse (Belief Clarified), who are we supporting; Jesus Christ who is Truth, or the god of the lie?  John 8:44-47; 14:6

 

 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their *testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.  Rev 12:10,11

Those of God's people who fully defend God and Christ in truth, by speaking against lies, (their "testimony") are spiritually killed by the "spirit-breathed" Beast/organization.  John 16:2; Rev 13:15   They are spiritually killed/disfellowshipped by the Watchtower organization - "Jehovah's spirit-directed organization".   They refuse to "worship", give any credence, respect or value, to the Beast".  Rev 13:4

They did not love their "lives" in the Beast, more than their love for God, Jesus and Truth.  Thus, they personally cast Satan down.

 “Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. 17 But beware of men, for they will deliver you up to councils and scourge you in their synagogues. 18 You will be brought before governors and kings (GB and elders) for My sake, as a *testimony to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they deliver you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak; 20 for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.

21 “Now brother will deliver up brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. 22 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. 23 When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.  Matt 10:16-23

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Witness said:

2 Thess 2:9-12:  The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

- He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives

Here i see how Organizational success in: Preaching work, Legal Battles, Worldwide Unity, Building Programs, Technology helped Education ...etc, .... and hard work to be Moral in all things, can be also "weapon" that serve the lie. Not one time, even WT Society publication emphasized, how it is not enough for individual, or whole groups of people, to be nice and honest, moral people, not to lie, steal, kill, etc., or to even have faith in God, but how is most important to worship Him in acceptable way.

... they refused to love the truth and so be saved.  This is very intrigue. How is possible that people, like JW members, refusing to love the truth, when they are so sure how they Have The Truth. They have the truth? This can go to philosophy and some metaphysics. Is it "Truth" some thing that we can to "posses"? Obviously it is inside WT Society. They can "materialize" some supposed "truth" into textual shape of some publication (books or/and magazines). If you get this publication and accept message, than you are in "possesion" of the so called truth. And after some time this "truth" can be replaced with another "truth"( in same manner you replacing old curtain with new one on your window). In means how so called "first truth" came to be "thing" that can be physically put aside or even destroyed. That is how "ownership" is working. Because this sort of "the truth" has not came from God, but it is human Product. If some individual is Creator of something (like "truth" in this case) he is entitled to "posses" it, to sell it, to destroy it.

Here we see difference about who is ownership of something. Human can not "posses" God's Truth. Human can only "posses" own truth and playing with it as they wish.   

Well, we came now to this part of 2 Thess: For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie .  What more you need to be on wrong way, than powerful delusion (send by no one else but that God who you, or JW in this subject, want to worship) This is something to get strong headache. You put your trust in God who sends powerful delusion on you because you are wrongly made conclude how you love the truth, but on contrary, you love your own created picture of image of truth 

Is there any hope? :))

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Well, we came now to this part of 2 Thess: For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie .  What more you need to be on wrong way, than powerful delusion (send by no one else but that God who you, or JW in this subject, want to worship) This is something to get strong headache. You put your trust in God who sends powerful delusion on you because you are wrongly made conclude how you love the truth, but on contrary, you love your own created picture of image of truth 

Is there any hope? :))

I wondered  the same thing about 6 years ago, when just leaving the WT. Definitely, it can give a person a "strong headache"!    What I realized when it was pointed out to me, is that the answer is right in this set of scriptures.  Satan contrives the delusion, not God.  "The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works.God "sends" the delusion by allowing it to happen.  He allowed Satan to test Job's integrity, by removing the protective "hedge" around him.  Job 1:9-12   And, since Satan demands to sift each one of us as "wheat", God allows it.  Luke 22:31  

I'm taking the liberty to post my question and the answer I received.   I hope it helps alleviate the headache.  :)

    Hello guest!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

That is nice and praiseworthy . But, i guess how you would not make Religious Doctrine about your sense of hospitality.

I would say, neither did Rutherford. Just because he wrote how he felt doesn’t mean it was made to be a doctrine.

It was meant to be inspirational. The kind of difference not taken into account by anyone here. I suspect no one here has a good grasp of the Org history. I would say, only those that taunt and display “dishonesty” usually chime in to in other words, misunderstood person. But it doesn't surprise me at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Witness said:

I wondered  the same thing about 6 years ago, when just leaving the WT. Definitely, it can give a person a "strong headache"!    What I realized when it was pointed out to me, is that the answer is right in this set of scriptures.  Satan contrives the delusion, not God.  "The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works.God "sends" the delusion by allowing it to happen.  He allowed Satan to test Job's integrity, by removing the protective "hedge" around him.  Job 1:9-12   And, since Satan demands to sift each one of us as "wheat", God allows it.  Luke 22:31  

How can this not be applied to you or Srecko, Matthew and any other opposer? You have just answered yourself with the embodiment of bidding Satan's work.

Meaning, opposers here are their own worst nightmare.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, divergenceKO said:

Just because he wrote how he felt doesn’t mean it was made to be a doctrine.

Well, by this you telling us how "his feeling" about something, he put on paper and then, he or his friends, came to idea to spread around the world "his feeling" with help of religious publications in purpose to teach people about Words of God. ?? They (WT Society) claim how printing and publishing publications is for that purpose, to spread "God's word" around the globe to educate people .... with Rutherford's feelings and feelings of his friends ??!! 

9 hours ago, divergenceKO said:

It was meant to be inspirational.

Hold a minute please. For a very long, long time WT Society claims how not one person in Organization and nothing published in/by WT Society is not "inspired by God". And now this statement of your want to show us, how because God not inspired his people, we need some individuals/people (Rutherford and others) who will inspire other people. But you are brave to say in responding to @Witness how we are instruments inspired by evil:

9 hours ago, divergenceKO said:

How can this not be applied to you or Srecko, Matthew and any other opposer? You have just answered yourself with the embodiment of bidding Satan's work.

:))))) sad and fun

 

9 hours ago, divergenceKO said:

I suspect no one here has a good grasp of the Org history.

Of course! And because of that you are in the same group as many others who don't know much about WT history. Apologize, but your own recognition on this, disqualified you from jury of those who are able to recognize how good or poor is someone person's knowledge about WT history. :))

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is obvious that both Russell and Rutherford made mistakes in their interpretation and got some things downright wrong. For example the depiction of a Caucasian blue eyed, blonde, and beardless Jesus in "The Kingdom is at Hand" (1944). To us now, it seems unfathomable how this could have even happened, surely someone would have known that Jesus, as a middle eastern Jew, couldn't have looked like this: (He even has a 40's hair style!)

P1580137.JPG

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Well, by this you telling us how "his feeling" about something, he put on paper and then, he or his friends, came to idea to spread around the world "his feeling" with help of religious publications in purpose to teach people about Words of God. ?? They (WT Society) claim how printing and publishing publications is for that purpose, to spread "God's word" around the globe to educate people .... with Rutherford's feelings and feelings of his friends ??!! 

By this, are you saying; you know how people felt back then to understand the inspirational message that was circulating back then? If Russell was speaking against “hellfire” as an inspirational message, how can that be applied if today’s message about hellfire if its well understood by many religious denominations, not to be seen as the Catholic Church once understood it.

Does your response conclude the same message can be applied today? If there is a modern witness that lays waste to such understanding, that person is following the same pattern as you.

20 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Of course! And because of that you are in the same group as many others who don't know much about WT history. Apologize, but your own recognition on this, disqualified you from jury of those who are able to recognize how good or poor is someone person's knowledge about WT history. :))

I would refer to the corrections I made with your understanding of the Org. History. I don't need such assistance to understand the Org's history in the correct way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Anna said:

For example the depiction of a Caucasian blue eyed, blonde, and beardless Jesus in "The Kingdom is at Hand" (1944). To us now, it seems unfathomable how this could have even happened, surely someone would have known that Jesus, as a middle eastern Jew, couldn't have looked like this: (He even has a 40's hair style!)

Can you provide how "exactly" Jesus looked, that I may be able to make the same claim. The  Org under the direction of JW's did make some changes in view from the early portraits and depictions of Jesus. Historical insight has Jesus seem a lot darker. This does not mean where Jesus was born weren't lighter skinned people.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, divergenceKO said:

By this, are you saying; you know how people felt

 

On 10/4/2019 at 10:22 PM, divergenceKO said:

I would say, neither did Rutherford. Just because he wrote how he felt doesn’t mean it was made to be a doctrine.

Sorry, but you started to speak about Rutherford's feelings. :)) (bold red letter is mine) 

2 hours ago, divergenceKO said:

I would refer to the corrections I made with your understanding of the Org.

I will accept your corrections if your corrections are correct :))

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Several Years ago archaeologists found the Ossuary of James, the brother of Jesus ( An Ossuary is like a casket, but it is a small box that contains only bones, separated to fit in a small box ...). In fact, on the side of the Ossuary, it was written in Hebrew "James brother of Jesus".

Further investigation with x-rays have revealed on the four sides of the box  carbon impressions of the images of Jesus' brothers James, Brian, Pablo, and his one sister, Esmeralda, who was killed in an ox-cart accident.

On the inside bottom of the lid was an image of Jesus, which forensic scientists used computer image enhancement to turn into a modern day photograph, shown below.

Mary, Jesus' mother, was not represented.

 

Jesus portrait.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Further research on the origin of Christendom's "Cross", shows that earlier it was a symbol of a fish, and when Christians met they would wipe their forheads and make that symbol with their fingers as a secret sign of recognition during times of persecution, and as the Catholic Church evolved, the fish scribement was replaced with the "cross" scribement, on the forehead.

Before the times of persecutions, they had a small button near the left breast as identification.

 

12606_lg.jpeg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, divergenceKO said:

The  Org under the direction of JW's

If by Org you mean WT Society (American Company established in 19th century ) with every Corporations that is connected with Jehovah Witnesses people (all sisters or subsidiary companies, perhaps someone who knows better can explain what is legal relations between all this Corporations) and if by JW's you mean all baptized brotherhood (children, sisters and brothers of all ages) than you wrongly made conclusion how Second Class giving direction to and guiding First Class (including GB, who working and sleeping and eating in WT Society buildings and, as they said are not WT employees but they are, reading from your idea, are elected by Brotherhood not to Guide and Lead JW's but to be Body of Something). :))

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/3/2019 at 2:20 PM, Matthew9969 said:

Where do they say they erred?

They do it all the time.

From today’s WT study:

“He was very confident that he would soon receive his reward. In fact, when he proposed marriage in 1911, he told his prospective bride, Pearl: “You know what is going to happen in 1914. If we are going to get married, we better do it soon!” Did this Christian couple give up the race for life when they did not receive their heavenly reward”

Why did he think he would go upward in 1914? Because he read it in the WT.

Why did it not turn out that way? Because they were wrong.

Why is the experience included in the study article for all congregations? Because they are not afraid to admit that they were wrong. 

Duh.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, JW Insider said:

image.png

image.png

Lol, yes, I had looked at all the various depictions of Jesus in other cultures. They all make him look like one of their own. What I meant was that God's organization should have known better than to make him look like a 40's all American boy from California 😂

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Anna said:

should have known better than to make him look like a 40's all American boy from California

“Let’s go surfing now, everybody’s learning how, come on and safari with meeeee” - Brian Wilson (probably)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

On the inside bottom of the lid was an image of Jesus, which forensic scientists used computer image enhancement to turn into a modern day photograph, shown below.

Mary, Jesus' mother, was not represented.

 

I take all of this with a pinch of salt. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ah- 1944.  The world was a different place then.

In most African countries there were oppressive white colonists living lives of the white elite. America had black soldiers fighting for the country without having equal rights when they returned home....... so the whole society had blinkers on..... so why expect more from the JW artist who drew the picture?

Again, a case of taking something out of historical context and applying 21st century values retroactively. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

If by Org you mean WT Society (American Company established in 19th century ) with every Corporations that is connected with Jehovah Witnesses people (all sisters or subsidiary companies, perhaps someone who knows better can explain what is legal relations between all this Corporations) and if by JW's you mean all baptized brotherhood (children, sisters and brothers of all ages) than you wrongly made conclusion how Second Class giving direction to and guiding First Class (including GB, who working and sleeping and eating in WT Society buildings and, as they said are not WT employees but they are, reading from your idea, are elected by Brotherhood not to Guide and Lead JW's but to be Body of Something). :))

I hope you understand the difference between the Bible Students and JW's. The fact there are witnesses combining the two doesn't mean there are no differences in doctrine. That just means those witnesses are conflicted.

You just said a mouth full. Does this mean Jesus was wrong to commission the apostles? Does this mean Jesus was wrong to appoint the 70 men? Do you “reject” the words in scripture about leaders? Did God’s commission stop just because you don’t like a certain group? Are other Christians following the letter of Christ instructions and God’s commands?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is why, when something new is found that can educate the public just like how “Jesus” looked like, it would be disingenuous for a witness to speculate what Jesus really looked like.

The Early church fathers and early paintings depict Jesus as white, blonde hair, blue-eyed individual. Now science is saying Jesus was a dark, brown hair, brown eyed individual. Who is correct?

We know where Jesus was conceived, the people in that community; were lighter skin than your average Middle Eastern. The Iraq Jew is lighter in complexion by comparison.

To suggest, one appearance is wrong, can be applied to those that falsely follow the same determination of suggesting earlier Christians should know better.

I wonder how those that criticize the Org. Before they joined the Org didn’t imagine Jesus looking just like he has been depicted for centuries.

jesus.png

At what point can modern investigations conclude, all ancient portraits are wrong by today’s standard for the ancients, to have corrected their works back then?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Arauna said:

so why expect more from the JW artist who drew the picture?

Artists are people who need inspiration for their works. In the absence of divine inspiration, the inspiration of this worldly world is also good, enough for making pictures. :))

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, divergenceKO said:

Does this mean Jesus was wrong to commission the apostles? Does this mean Jesus was wrong to appoint the 70 men? Do you “reject” the words in scripture about leaders? Did God’s commission stop just because you don’t like a certain group? Are other Christians following the letter of Christ instructions and God’s commands?

In answering on this and many more, we can use words; Yes, No, I don't know, You don't now, I am right, You are wrong .... but "the best" answers are on JW official  web sites ................

3 hours ago, divergenceKO said:

I hope you understand the difference between the Bible Students and JW's.

........ :))) from Bible Students era till now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Arauna said:

Ah- 1944.  The world was a different place then.

 

19 hours ago, Arauna said:

Again, a case of taking something out of historical context and applying 21st century values retroactively. 

I understand what you are saying, but the world will always be a different place in retrospect. 100 years from now we will be saying the same thing about the world today. I'm not being critical of the org, I would just like to point out that what we think are facts today, in retrospect may not be fact at all. I don't agree with JTR on many things, but he has a point when he says things will be as they are supposed to be regardless of what we say they will be. Honestly, most of the time it's just guess work, and we do well not too take ourselves to seriously over it.  As long as we understand clear admonition such as: "Therefore, beloved ones, since you are awaiting these things, do your utmost to be found finally by him spotless and unblemished and in peace" (2 Peter 3:14)  I don't think we should be overly concerned about whether the interpretation of the generation is correct or not,  or the meaning of the Locusts, or the hailstones, or ancient worthies etc. Everything will happen on time and according to Jehovah's will. We can just speculate.

19 hours ago, Arauna said:

so why expect more from the JW artist who drew the picture?

Well it wasn't really up to the artist. It was up to Br. Rutherford, he called the shots at the time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Anna said:

It was up to Br. Rutherford, he called the shots at the time.

They all had the same frame of mind - that is why I mentioned the overall racist frame of mind of everyone in USA.  I do not think br Rutherford said to the artist he must draw a light guy.... he just did it automatically and it was approved.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Anna said:

I don't agree with JTR on many things, but he has a point when he says things will be as they are supposed to be regardless of what we say they will be. Honestly, most of the time it's just guess work, and we do well not to take ourselves to seriously over it. 

Years ago, I sent my family to an assembly somewhere,  and they were gone four days (which cost me about $600) and when they came back they said I REALLY REALLY should have gone with them

They were excited, and I asked them what they learned that was so great (that took 4 days, and $600 to learn ... but I didn't say that out loud ...).

They said that that they learned that what we USED to believe about Nebuchadnezzer's Image in the book of Daniel was all wrong, and the TOES, which used to mean something completely different ... NOW mean something NEW that is completely different.  They were as excited as a puppy with a pork chop about this.

Somehow, I was less than enthused, and visualized six, one hundred dollar bills with wings, flying South for the winter, never to be seen again.

I suspect that revelation could have been put on one side of a post card, and still would not be worth the postage.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Arauna said:

I do not think br Rutherford said to the artist he must draw a light guy.... he just did it automatically and it was approved.

I do not think Rutherford said you must draw a light guy either, but as you say, he approved it 🙂

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Anna said:

you say, he approved it 🙂

But in historical context any white person on the globe would have approved the picture because no-one white realized they were racist. 

Many whites (professors at universities)  in 1950s still called island dwellers savages..... and other names- which we will not go into here. The world was dominated by whites - especially in Africa.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Anna said:

I

I dont like it when people who only speak one or two languages expect others to speak their language perfectly. 

English is not my first language ..... I therefore will never expect another to write it perfectly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/3/2019 at 10:24 PM, Matthew9969 said:

If that is all you know, then you know very little.

Judging my knowledge on a few sentences?    But the little I know is absolute truth...... and I have enough of Jehovahs spirit to be able to recognize the truth by His grace. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Judging my knowledge on a few sentences?    But the little I know is absolute truth...... and I have enough of Jehovahs spirit to be able to recognize the truth by His grace. 

It is a ridiculous statement that he made, and I thought of coming to your defense on it. But I talk too much as it is.

Historical context should not be taken into account? What is he smoking? Still, such is the adolescent thinking of our time—wont to equate “context” with “raising a straw-man argument.”

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Arauna said:

They all had the same frame of mind - that is why I mentioned the overall racist frame of mind of everyone in USA. 

So, these new adjustments by God's people, no matter how small; like portraying Christ as blond and blue-eyed while his dark, curly haired cousin baptized him, could be influenced by society 's (of the world) viewpoint at the time? 

They could be influenced by the circumstances governing the world?  

Yes, I believe you are right.

Judge Rutherford's Letter to Hitler

Translation of the letter sent by Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, German Branch, Wachtturmstraasse 1-19, Magdeburg/Germany to Hitler.

Excerpts:

"In the very same manner, in course of the recent months the board of directors of our Society not only refused to engage in propaganda against Germany, but has even taken a position against it. The enclosed declaration underlines this fact and emphasizes that the people leading in such propaganda (Jewish businessmen and catholics) also are the most rigorous persecutors of the work of our Society and ist board of directors. This and other statements of the declaration are meant to re pudiate the slanderous accusation, that Bible Researchers are supported by the Jews."

"We demand the freedom of all religious denominations within the state, as far as they do not endanger the state itself or violate the moral values of the German race. The party as such represents the viewpoint of positive Christianity without being attached to any particular denomination. It fights against the Jewish-materialistic spirit inside and outside of us and is convinced that any recovery of the German people can only take place from the inside out."

    Hello guest!

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Witness said:

o, these new adjustments by God's people, no matter how small; like portraying Christ as blond and blue-eyed while his dark, curly haired cousin baptized him, could be influenced by society 's (of the world) viewpoint at the time? 

How did you see Jesus when you were young? Let's try to be a little honest.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Did you make this up?

Instead of sarcasm, try looking at the picture posted by that individual, and the time frame it indicates. Then Srecko can really laugh on how silly your post is, along with Anna that likes a demeaning and ignorant post.