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That's true, but it would not attract as much attention. Rutherford had been a political marketer before following Russell/WT/Bible Students. This is why he would ADV/ADV/ADV. And why gimmicks like putting David and Abraham on a property deed were important to him. This is why he used the title "Judge." But I think it was Covington who figured out that he could do much better in the courts if we agreed to be recognized as a religion. Religious rights were easier to fight for than unspecifie

As vitriolic as the spiteful crticisms of apostate opposers are, there is a remarkable tide of recognition of the integrity of Jehovah's Witnesses, even among those who do not share our beliefs. Speaking of the voluntary stand of Jehovah's Witnesses against the oppressive demands of the Nazi and Fascist regimes in Germany and Italy this observation was recently made: "We owe it also to their sacrifice that there was the powerful push in civil society that gave birth to the European pro

Nobody but nobody has “apostates” like Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is almost as though I am proud of them. Every NT writer wrote about opposition and apostasy. If it happened then, it should happen now. What if there was no opposition today? Wouldn’t you have to wonder why? Since Witnesses do not seek to evade taxes, they pay into social & police services to a greater proportion than most groups. Since they put into practice Bible principles that improve lives, they draw upon those services

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7 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Have you learned nothing from Allen Smith? Many times he has grumbled (with some bitterness) about how I have banned various ones of his group. Vic Vomidog

You must be confused TTH. I know the parrot is you. I don't think you would "BAN" yourself, unless you feel you need to do it in order to confuse people or make a deceptive point. I've known that Parrot since Jehovah's Witness dot net when you spoke harshly about the Watchtower.

So, try to keep your deceptive story straight. You will make a better storyteller. But, I will agree, I have been banned because of people like you, Anna, JWinsider, JTR. People that are far from being witnesses. So, I don't see why you argue with "witness" another false prophet, when you should be, agreeing with her.

I don't see the need to continue being deceptive about whom the Admin and the Librarian is. Who the old hen is. That boat sailed long ago when you gave up that info by trying to computer hack a member of my group.

Therefore, stop trying to be cute and witty, you're no better a liar than, JWinsider.

Ban me again!

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10 hours ago, Witness said:

Yes Tom, I have more power to mislead a JW than 8 men put together.  Incredible, isn’t it?

I’m glad you finally admit, what a false prophet you are. I agree with your assessment that you alone can mislead more JW’s than 8 men. The good thing, those 8 men don’t have the support of Satan, much as you do, witness.

I see you still try to impress everyone by your long post. When will you and JWinsider learn, expanding your comments weakens your position of not applying scripture in a manner consistent to Christ teachings. Misrepresenting Watchtower literature is so last, year.

With your comment, you condemn Christ. You crucify him once again, and for what. As you stated, to mislead more JW’s.

I framed it for prosperity. I assume you will try to clean what is actual truth in your statement. Let, Pearl know she needs to get better students.

Since you entered Psalms 140:1, what danger do you feel those 8 men pose to you that you alone pose to yourself? Keep in mind, the context here is “prayer for rescue”, not exactly the same as in Matthew about fruits of the tree.

Matthew’s context that you submitted has to do with, knowing them by their fruits. Matt 7:15-20

So, who is them? Are you them? What fine fruits can you bear with hate in your heart?

 In 2 Corinthians 4:1-4 Paul is making a distinction between the “light of Christ gospel” “A treasure in Clay jars” “Treasure in earthen vessels”

So, what fine gospel of Christ can be compared to the disdain you harbor for your fellow humans, especially those you hate, the 8 men? What kind of pearl of wisdom can be applied by your standards, that others would be willing to accept?

How does this comparison give you a sustainable argument against the 8 men you so hate?

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7 hours ago, Allen_Smith said:

You must be confused TTH. I know the parrot is you. 

Arrgghhhh

7 hours ago, Allen_Smith said:

I've known that Parrot since Jehovah's Witness dot net when you spoke harshly about the Watchtower.

I have not spoken harshly about the Watchtower, and I don’t think I ever commented on jw.net. At any rate, the parrot was selected specifically for an identity here. Vic Vomidog is an fictional apostate from my first book—a “perennial” apostate, George Chrysiddes  has called him—and he has not appeared on any other website than here.

Possibly you are thinking of some comment meant to be humorous and the humor missed the mark, at least in your instance.

You must understand that when I write of Jehovah’s Witnesses, I give away many a fault, but they are nearly always quirks and human foibles. This is deliberate and is not meant to convey any disrespect to the Watchtower. If we try to present ourselves as Rhodes scholars, people visit a Kingdom Hall and see through it in two seconds. No. We are ordinary people—with an emphasis on the ordinary, the same as was true of the early Christians. They did not “lift themselves up by their own bootstraps” later in life. They remained always “uneducated and ordinary” by the world’s standards, that description of the ones taking the lead in Jerusalem. Such is the nature of Christianity. Jehovah’s Witnesses have held on to that pattern. It is a working-class religion. It always has been. It draws disproportionally from that group. Ones more highly educated are welcome, but not to assume the takeover rights to which they are accustomed. 

My aim always is to present Jehovah’s Witnesses as earthen vessels, and they are more desirable on that account. Moreover, God is more to be praised on that account: “However, we have this treasure in earthen vessels, so that the power beyond what is normal may be God’s and not from us.” - 2 Corinthians 4:7

I don’t even kick back anymore when some scoundrel tries to present it as though JWs have higher than elsewhere incidences of mental illness. I have no idea whether that is true or not, but I say that if it is, it is exactly what one would expect from Jesus’s remarks that he came to minister, not to those not who do not need a physician, but to those who do. He is speaking “spiritual sickness,” of course, but sickness tends to overflow its banks. Ones truly “sighing and groaning over all the detestable things” may well display signs of emotional stress. This does not make them undesirable. It is the ones that sail full speed ahead, untroubled by the atrocities so clearly visible on all sides that you have to wonder about. With admittedly some exaggeration, I have stated: “When Jehovah’s Witnesses go nuts, they are still well-meaning persons who wouldn’t hurt a fly. When those of the greater world go nuts, you’d better call the SWAT team.

Humor can make “the medicine go down.” People like humor. But it does not translate well, and there are some people with no sense of humor at all. If it does not translate well, then snark and sarcasm translate even worse. I use them all. My intended audience is not primarily the friends. I hope they like it, but I am not mainly writing for them.

This is the reason that the Watchtower writes very plainly (some would say blandly). It is frustrating to those who love to read, but it is something that must be—they do not want their writing diluted when some take exception to what doesn’t have to be there in the first place, so they stick to strictly the spiritual aspects of things and touch on current news topic specifics to such a shallow degree that it is a turnoff to those imagining themselves better plugged in.  It has to be that way. Just look at how JWI and Arauna are going at it over something that both concede is a sidepoint. It is perfectly okay for such to play out here, but the WT organization would never even touch the topic.

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15 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Let me make it clear - I do not explain to those with permanent OCD hate of JWs.   

Sometimes things speak for themselves and I think that is nowhere more evident than with her comments—even more so with her manner than with the comments themselves. Imagine—invariably including a deluge of scripture—and yet none are selected unless they elevate her own piety and can be used to put down those she dislikes. I have never seen her make any other use of verse.

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19 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

she easily could be accused of “running ahead,” and “going beyond the things written”

True,  but I do not go beyond what is written in the bible.  NEVER!  If we are to meditate on things in the bible, we definitely will come up with insights that are not broadly accepted but this does not mean it is wrong to speculate.  .... or wrong to see a new insight.  Even Angel's wish to peer into these things.  

I see what is in the bible and what is in the world and make a connection.   I see what is in the bible about scientific subjects and  make a connection with what I know or have read.... it has enriched my thinking and love for the truth.

I have prayed about this..... that jehovah chastize me if I am moving in a wrong way...... I am ready to be corrected. ...... running ahead can be like spiritism.... so it is something to be careful of...... show caution..... on the other hand I do think things are moving in certain directions in the world and I think think things are moving fast. 

I do not "bend" scriptures as I have seen some do here. 

 

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17 hours ago, Matthew9969 said:

Hey bub, it's your governing body who keeps on changing the spiritual food they dish out, which is supposedly from Jehovah, it's your governing body who are telling Jehovah what to say, and you are worshipping them, that's all on you.

Anna seems to think you were being sarcastic toward JW’s and Not God. What she “fails” to understand is, I wasn’t referring about JW’s but instead concentrated on your own blasphemous words?

“Its good food until it becomes rotten, and Jehovah has to come up with new food”

God doesn’t need to provide anything to us humans. He does so, so that we can benefit from his spiritual wisdom. God gave up his son as a sacrifice in order for humanity to have a second chance for internal life. How dare you insinuate as well as Anna that it was meant to be sarcastic toward JW’S?

How dare you command God that he has to come up with new food? That’s what “has to” is, a command. When, did you become above God to order God to do something. An attack to God’s sovereignty as well.

Your blasphemous statement that “Jehovah has to come up with NEW FOOD is a direct attack on God. You have made the, grievous of sins since you attacked God’s Holy Spirit that dispenses that “fine” fruits. IT IS UP TO GOD TO DECIDE IF THAT FRUIT SHOULD BE REVISED FOR THE NEXT GENERATION, NOT YOURS, NOT WITNESS, NOT JWINSIDER, NOT TTH, NOT ANNA, NOT JTR, NOT ANYONE’S BUT HIS ALONE.

Anna might want to dismiss your words. She can’t. She doesn’t have the power to forgive such a sin. She, might think so, but she would only be fooling herself.

People need to start respecting God more here. As for the governing body. They hold, apply, and obey God’s words more than you. You are a sanctimonious and arrogant man that just lost his soul.

This is the kind of Christianity being argued here by opposers? Get behind me Satan. That’s all on you Bub!

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20 minutes ago, Arauna said:

If we are to meditate on things in the bible, we definitely will come up with insights that are not broadly accepted but this does not mean it is wrong to speculate.  .... or wrong to see a new insight. 

Of course. I said that you “could easily be accused of running ahead.” I didn’t say that I would do it. I would not. Everyone here “runs ahead” to one degree or another. Moreover, the censure of anyone here doesn’t matter. It is understood that the site has nothing to do with the congregation and does not attract any Witness that is typical.

20 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Even Angel's wish to peer into these things.  

Yes. It was my answer that I never got around to making when CMP—or was it JWI?—presented his wish list of what the annual meeting might present. He wished for less emphasis on the nearness of the end, and even suggested that the last days should be understood to have commenced in Jesus’ time. “Angels are desiring to peer into these things” I almost said. “Are you going to tell them to straighten up and get back to work?”

20 minutes ago, Arauna said:

I see what is in the bible and what is in the world and make a connection.   I see what is in the bible about scientific subjects and  make a connection with what I know or have read.... it has enriched my thinking and love for the truth.

It makes the Bible come alive when we do this.

20 minutes ago, Arauna said:

I have prayed about this..... that jehovah chastize me if I am moving in a wrong way...... I am ready to be corrected.

One really can’t go wrong with this attitude. I do this myself—and all the more so since I am clearly “out there” for a brother.

20 minutes ago, Arauna said:

I do not "bend" scriptures as I have seen some do here. 

Whole lotta bending going on here, that’s for sure.

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Every time I hear any counsel against "running ahead", I think ... running ahead of what ... or who?

It's important that we differentiate from "running ahead" of the words of the Bible, which results in "old light", touted as "new light" ... until "newer light"  comes out, of which many of us old-timers have seen so much of that it seems like a disco lounge strobe light.

I think running ahead of the pontifical pronouncements of the WTB&TS management is quite a different issue than running ahead of Jehovah God, or completely unambiguous scripture.

But ... it seems to me, as individuals, that if you are in the race for life, which should be secondary to serving Jehovah God just because he is worthy of service, and obedience, and honor .... that it's better to be ahead of the race, instead of behind the race.

Why not as an organization?

Because If we as individuals are wrong, only we "pay the price" of being wrong, and have to bear the consequences.\

If we as an organization are wrong, we as individuals STILL have to pay the full price for being wrong  .... times 8 million people ... and the perpetrators pay NO PRICE WHATSOEVER.

Everybody knows that in a horse race ... ONE of the horses is going to win.

Which one, makes all the difference in the world.

A three legged horse with motivation, spunk, desire and the best behaved horse in the whole pack of runners may be all of that and more ... but for sane people, that is not the way to bet. 

There is also the issue of intellectual integrity ... but that is another topic.

In over a hundred and five years of recorded experience of watching "OUR" horse run ... what track record do we have to use as a basis for credibility?

For core truths discerned ... arguably about 95%.

For mountains of drivel, false prophesies, bogus types and anti-types, and silliness and pronouncements that defy all common sense, perhaps somewhere around 85%, with 15% having real value, or at a minimum, even making some form of common sense.

And of course, being obviously flat WRONG, when simple human common sense could have avoided that.

SO ... basically the WTB&TS position is that THEY can run ahead all they want, and if we do not believe what they come up with, we can be disfellowshipped and have our and our family's lives ruined ...... but if WE run ahead we can ALSO be disfellowshipped and have our and our family's lives ruined.

.... and no matter what they do ... no matter how egregious ... the money keeps rolling in, and they NEVER apologize for anything.

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22 hours ago, Allen_Smith said:

You have not chased anyone away.

Actually I have. And I don’t mean chasing them away by being unpleasant. I mean by specifically cautioning a few, who seemed too unaware of their surroundings, that they should think it through before they continue to engage. I didn’t say that they shouldn’t do it—that is up to them—but that they should know the score before they did. @Indiana is the last one I did this with. Ask him if you doubt it.

22 hours ago, Allen_Smith said:

This site is meant to give spiritually weak people the platform to speak out against the Watchtower.

Yes, but I have taken it over, and it will now do what I want it to. You have helped me in this, by insisting time and again that I am the owner. No one else has done that. “If he gets people thinking that, then I might as well carry on as though it were so,” I have “reasoned.” It is amazing to me that this has happened, but there it is. Sometimes I even wish that @admin or @The Librarian (that old hen) will get fed up and ban me, for I sure do spend a lot of time here and maybe that time would be best spent elsewhere. Ah well...if Admin’s fears are realized, this site will not be around much longer anyway.

I also feel strongly about not stumbling others and about not spreading contentions among brothers. When Bruce G carried on as though he had been stumbled after I liked the comment of an “apostate,” I decided not to do that anymore. I held to that resolve for the longest time, and I still almost never do it. Of course, that concern is partly offset by the realization that anyone so concerned about stumbling ought not be here in the first place, but I stopped “liking” comments of certain ones nonetheless. It is understood that this site is a collection ranging from atypical and avant-garde Witnesses to those who can’t stand them. This must be understood going in. (It is those few who did not seem to understand this that I have cautioned.) You can’t charge into someone else’s home and accuse him of not playing by your rules.

22 hours ago, Allen_Smith said:

What they do care, is “sitting the record straight” about many deceptions, misleading, misguided, misrepresentation and plain false allegations about the Watchtower and Bible Truth.

You know very well that the organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses would not recommend your engaging here any more than they would me. They would not say: “whole lotta liars on that site, but not to worry—we have our man Allen to straighten them all out.” 

While I doubt very much that you have done so, I have candidly written the WBTS as to what I am doing. While I am “rogue” I do not want to be “out of control.” I respect their lead. I do not think that I am above them. Were I to hear: “What are you doing, TTH, singing on the wall when Hezekiah has told the troops to zip it—you’re messing everything up!” I would desist. I have not received any reply. 

22 hours ago, Allen_Smith said:

The point is, this site has a “false” presentation about “News regarding JW.org, Watchtower, IBSA including...  change your website platform to exclude the Watchtower and stop advertising this site as a JW friendly site.

It is true about much of this site—that it pretends to be what it is not. I stumbled across it in just that way, through an advertisement on Twitter. I was quite put out about the deceptive advertising—many of my early posts reflect that. Whether it was wise for me to stay I still do not know, but stay I did and I used the site to hone my own writing and parlayed that into some books. It has been a lot of fun for me, but no way is it conventional. If one transforms the whole place into a comedy club, that is another way of discrediting the malcontents who frequent here, which I believe you have said is your goal.

And for crying out loud, Allen, it is not my site. Everyone else understands this but you—well, they probably do not all understand it at this point because I have played into it. But you made it all possible.

 

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1 hour ago, Arauna said:

I have prayed about this..... that jehovah chastize me if I am moving in a wrong way.

Invariably the ones who examine themselves closely over broadcasted reproof are the ones for whom it was not intended and do not need it. The blockheads for whom it was intended simply dig in their heels and press on afresh.

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      Num 18:7 - “But you and your sons will carry out your priestly responsibilities for everything concerning the altar and for what is inside the veil, and you will do that work. I am giving you the work of the priesthood as a gift, BUT AN UNAUTHORIZED PERSON WHO COMES NEAR THE SANCTUARY WILL BE PUT TO DEATH."
       Who are the Temple sanctuary?  1 Cor 3:16,17; 1 Pet 2:5,9; 2Chron.13:9; Ezek 22:26;Eze.44:6,7,8,9; 2Thess.2:4; Dan.11:31; Matt.24:15; Rev 11:1,2
      “CLEARLY, APOSTATES DO NOT HAVE OUR BEST INTERESTS AT HEART. FOLLOWING THEM WOULD DIVERT US FROM THE ROAD THAT LEADS TO ETERNAL LIFE”. 
      Shepherd the Flock book, page 65 (the previous version) – 
      “Apostasy is a standing away from true worship, a falling away, defection, rebellion.”
      It includes: 
      “Deliberately spreading teachings contrary to bible truth…
      AS TAUGHT BY JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES”
       
       
      Pearl Doxsey, 4womaninthewilderness blogspot
      “The Kingdom—1914?”
      “The Sign of the End”
       
       
    • By Jack Ryan
      Here is the quote from Jehovah's Witnesses calling former members "mentally diseased"


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      Where in the scripture does it say that apostates are mentally diseased? I guess that's just their translation.
    • Guest Nicole
      By Guest Nicole
      The invasion of the mentally ill professional apostates is repeated again, at a Kingdom Hall in full meeting. Once the prayer is over, an invader gets on the stage and the ushers are forced to lower it. But among the attendees there are more apostates, including the one who is recording the video. They almost have to be forcibly evicted because they are reluctant to leave  while criticizing the organization. They gather at the door while the brothers prevent them from entering again and call the police. The arrival of the police causes some to run away, and the agent takes data from those who bother a private meeting. Let's take note of the scene that will surely be repeated in many  countries.
       
    • By Jack Ryan
      I see more and more stories about this woman Barbara Anderson
      What exactly did she do at Bethel? Does she have an interesting story?
    • By Jack Ryan
      bh chap. 11 pp. 110-112 pars. 12-15 - Imagine that a teacher is telling his students how to solve a difficult problem. A clever....student claims that the teacher’s way of solving the problem is wrong. What should the teacher do?....suppose that the teacher allows the rebel to show the class how he would solve the problem...he knows that allowing them the opportunity to try to prove their point will benefit the whole class. When the rebels fail, all honest students will see that the teacher is the only one qualified to lead the class....consider two things that the teacher in our illustration would not do............he would not stop the rebel student from presenting his case.




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