JW OPPOSERS GROUPS

[Srecko Sostar]

45 minutes ago, Arauna said:

I think you need to study history - especially church history. Then you will understand how this fits in. Why argue about something you do not understand or do not have good knowledge of?

Partially you are right about my knowing church history.

But tell me, did i get it right if i say, how every Organized Religion, including WT Society and JW organization, doing everything to make obedient members who will not questioning doctrines and leadership, regardless of various and different doctrines that are specific for each of them (religion)?

If i am right in this perception and conclusion, than this is quite enough for/about "knowing church history". :))

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

If you are talking about me, Arauna, I would like to hear those stories.. although it is written as an accusation to me personally, I assume you mean in a general sense about anybody.

There is a saying in America, from an old TV show, that "Don't do the crime, if you can't do the time".

Secrecy is the breeding place of tyranny, both petty and gross, and the root of many injurious things. It covers up tyrannies, incompetence and malfeasance .... and protects  judges from any accountability.  It also hides things that SHOULD be made public, so that the general populace is in fear of SPECIFIC actions and consequences.

Bad judges should have to have consequences equally punitive to their bad judgements.

I think the system Jehovah set up thousands of years ago  in ancient Israel is ..oh... what's the word I want to use ... oh yeah! .... PERFECT.

The system we have now was made up from the fears of New York Lawyers.

Having it done correctly, and having gross , embarrassing sins and crimes made public and notorious is a VERY good deterrent ...all by itself.

Oh, by the way ... my first wife was seduced by another Brother, circa 1974, and he got away with if for YEARS, and was in good standing in the congregation married to her, because nobody realized what was really going on.  When I blew the lid off of it with certified letters to all the congregations in the Richmond Virginia congregations, and New York ... only then was he disfellowshipped.  Interestingly enough ... because our names are very phonetically similar, when it was announced  I got blamed for it in about half the congregations I had gone to, as I was the "loose cannon", and he was a Pioneer, and ex-bethelite.

That's what you get when you have secrecy.

A totally screwed up Justice system.

 

 

 

[Ray Devereaux]

15 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

What was replacement for "hell"? Death in Armageddon. Excommunication from congregation. What was purpose of hell? To explain people how they have to be good and not make God displeased and angry.

I must be missing something. Wouldn’t this in effect be a cause for ex-members? I don’t believe Russell had the power to replace “hell” with “death in Armageddon” as indicated. He did have the power to foresee the mistakes of other religions enough to call his group “Bible Students” to a nondenominational church of Christ. Each church ran independent of each other. The elders were voted in. That meant, any church could set its own vision of doctrine which many did to some degree not with the advent movement but it's perception of time prophecy.

That Church started to bring back what was inevitable as death in Armageddon for those that rebelled against God as taught by his son Jesus. I don’t believe Jesus mixed his words to mean anything else but the survival of those loyal to God by faith and obedience.

Excommunication was placed by Jesus words, not to be influenced by those that opposed God’s command and those that denied the new covenant of Christ which indeed happen in Jesus time.

Can you explain yourself a little more, on what you mean by rebellious coming from an ex-member of any church?

[Witness]

On 10/31/2019 at 11:08 PM, Arauna said:

You and Pearl.... where do you go for meetings as instructed by Jehovah.

And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, not forsaking the assembling (“gathering together”) of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.  Heb 10:24,25

When you know people all over the globe, we do the best we can.    

²⁰ For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.” Matt 18:20

I think we’ve got it covered. As anointed “priests”, and under one Head, Christ, do we need elders to teach us?  If only the anointed in the organization would realize they are the ones who should be teaching the elders.  Yet, this would never happen under a wicked slave’s rule.  Matt 24:48-51

Mal 2:7 - "For the lips of a priest should keep knowledge,
And people should seek the law from his mouth;
For he is the messenger of the Lord of hosts."

Heb 8:10 – “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.”

On 10/31/2019 at 11:08 PM, Arauna said:

Where is the nation you belong to as stipulated in Isaaih 2:2-4....... a nation which comprises people if all tribes on the earth. .....?

Are you thinking this refers to the organization?

Isaiah 2:2-3:

^“ In the last days

the mountain of the Lord’s temple

The Temple is comprised of…God and Christ…and the “144,000” priests, as the “dwelling place” of Spirit (1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17; Eph 2:20-22) (Rev 21:22)

 will be established
    as the highest of the mountains;
it will be exalted above the hills,
    and all nations will stream to it.

³ Many peoples will come and say,

“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
    to the temple of the God of Jacob.(“Israel”)
He will teach us his ways,
    so that we may walk in his paths.”
The law will go out from Zion,
    the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

If you remember that the “law” is written on the hearts of the Temple “living stones”/priests…and that they are to teach the people God’s law; then perhaps you can see how important the faithfulness and recognition of the priesthood is to God.  It is much more important to Him than to the elders or to the GB who counsel them to remain separate, not to bond together.   I will echo James’ word, “tyranny”, and I’ll add that tyranny has at its root, evil intentions.   Satan’s evil intentions are to destroy the remaining members of the “woman’s seed” in the last days. ( Rev 12:17; 20:9,7,8; 16:14,16) This is why the organization cannot operate perfectly as it happened in instances within the nation of Israel.   God’s teaching mouthpiece in the anointed priesthood is silenced.  If anyone perceives this, they should leave the oppression and “trampling” of the saints; and turn directly to Christ.  Matt 24:15,16; Luke 17:37; Rev 3:18; 18:4-8

Exod 19:5,6 - “Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, ⁶ you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.”

 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

¹⁴ I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. ¹⁵ Therefore,

“they are before the throne of God
    and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne
    will shelter them with his presence.  Rev 7:9,13-15

God is preparing a repentant priesthood (Zech 1:3; Mal 3:7); cleansed and washed with the living water of Christ’s truth, to serve the needs of His children to come in the Kingdom.  That, is Zion. (Zech 13:9; 4:7) Not a corrupt organization where God’s laws have been broken many times over.  Not an organization built with the world’s riches, preserving its precious investments to the extent of robbing victims of justice. (2 Cor 6:14) Not an organization that defies God's decrees pertaining to His priesthood. (Eze 44:6-9; Num 3:10)  What you believe in, is a counterfeit of the true Zion.   I am amazed that JWs don’t see this.  I am amazed that darkness has settled into your hearts so thickly, that the light of truth escapes your notice.

Dear Arauna, a few years ago, we discussed the elder body rule vs. the anointed priesthood.  You may not remember.  You were not as, should I say, caustic, with your responses at that time.  I wonder if it isn’t the physical pain of arthritis that causes you to be rather hard core today.  I understand what pain and age can do to a person’s tolerance.  I just ask you, to do research on the early priesthood.  When it was time to build the tabernacle, Moses was told, “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.” MOUNT ZION!  Heb 8:5  It was a “copy and shadow” of what God was to establish through his Son. 

Today, the temple tabernacle is being built with God’s “special possession”.  1 Pet 2:5,9  There is no more earthly "temple" or earthly "organization".   The Temple is built with called, chosen, and ultimately found faithful priests (Rev 17:14) - organized under Christ their Head, as his Bride.  The anointed are the Body of Christ, not every JW.  Christ has chosen his Bride. We do not do the choosing.    1 Cor 12:27,18,28; Eph 4:11,12; 1 Cor 10:16,17; Rev 14:4

On 10/31/2019 at 11:08 PM, Arauna said:

and accepts christ as only a man of flesh?.

I accept Christ as a glorified King of kings in Heaven, as the first of the "new creation", both human and spirit. John 3:6;1 Pet 1:23; 2 Cor 5:17; Rev 1:5; 19:16

On 10/31/2019 at 11:08 PM, Arauna said:

I am not deceivied by you no matter how sincere you may personally feel. 

In the last days, God's "saints" and companions are deceived. Matt 24:24,22; Rev 13:1,2, 4-12,14-17; 2 Thess 2:1-4;9-12

 

I'm taking the liberty to post this link, and thank you, Librarian.

"The Rise of Zion" - http://4womaninthewilderness.blogspot.com/search?q=The+Rise+of+Zion

[Srecko Sostar]

7 hours ago, Ray Devereaux said:

I don’t believe Russell had the power to replace “hell” with “death in Armageddon” as indicated. He did have the power to foresee the mistakes of other religions enough to call his group “Bible Students” to a nondenominational church of Christ.

* bold words mine

To some extent, other individual has a power over us in a measure we give him a power over us. In some other cases we can't do almost nothing about that. 

7 hours ago, Ray Devereaux said:

on what you mean by rebellious coming from an ex-member of any church?

In continue, about what was said about power, is issue of rebellion or resistance. Russell was not, as books say about him (WT publications),  satisfied with his own religion and doctrines. In other words, his religion and doctrines of his religion had power over him and he didn't like that. For what ever reason he had. He showed rebelling and resistance to all that what made him unsatisfied, unhappy, unanswered ...etc. 

He has been in process of abandoning "old and bad" things and in same time looking for "new and better". He, in fact coming to be "an apostate", in context of what this word mean. A person who renounces a religious or political belief or principle.

In the eyes of his parents, Church and congregational members, he was, in general, viewed as "rebellious son" and as "apostate". Is that bad? 

7 hours ago, Ray Devereaux said:

He did have the power to foresee the mistakes of other religions enough to call his group “Bible Students” to a nondenominational church of Christ.

You say, and many say how Russell has not been, because of his action, rebellious and apostate. But on contrary, he had a power to go one level up, and he is considered, in WT Society and JW organization, as brave young man and truth seeker. But his past church was already  "had the truth". Why he wanted "truth above the truth"?? :)))

See, how  things are the same today with WT Society and JW organization and their members who leave "religion of their parents".  They are not "apostates" in context WT Society want to showed them (as bad and devil inspired individuals). They are "truth seekers"..... with various and different outcomes.  

[TrueTomHarley]

On 11/2/2019 at 3:50 AM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

We HAD a system that worked perfectly, ... where all city residents could watch the proceedings, and speak up from the back of the crowd, 

I think you have watched too much Perry Mason. Was it really that way?

On 11/2/2019 at 3:50 AM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

and no person can have an advocate or legal representation

So you feel each party in a judicial case should have his own lawyer, taking a page from the adversarial legal system of today?

“When both sides properly prepare a case, the adversary system can effectively guarantee the revelation of all the facts bearing on an issue. The more experience you have with it, the more you’ll find it a surprisingly scientific method of trial preparation.” — Perry Mason.  (Season 5, Ep 13 The Case of the Renegade Refugee)

Come now, that is not a religious statement? Thrust upon us by a new world of “science” that has despaired of finding impartial judges the like of Exodus 18:26: “capable men fearing God, trustworthy men hating dishonest profit?”

The reason they are hard to find is that the world embraces values to the contrary. Not so in the Christian organization. I will take the congregation justice system any day, which only deals with the spiritual matters that are of no concern of secular courts. But a hostile world tries to frame some of these spiritual matters as grist for the legal mill.

On 11/2/2019 at 3:50 AM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

That which has been kept in secrecy is being exposed, and those policies and procedures that have been arbitrary, capricious, and contrary to the administration of Justice and Mercy, is rotting from within, in the light of the information age we are now in.

What is happening is that those who refuse discipline are airing their complaints to a world that despises discipline and thereby finding common sympathy. It brings to mind the trademark of those describe in 2 Peter as “apostate”—they “hate” discipline. 

You don’t think that those who came out on the short end of the world’s court system don’t also complain about how they were abused and unjustly sold down the river? It is human nature to do so in a system that downplays responsibilities and upplays rights.

On 11/2/2019 at 3:50 AM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

But I’ve got news for you, Bubba TTH- the time’s they are a’changin.

Yes, Bubba. The effort today is to hinder those wanting to stay separate from the world—ideally, even making it illegal to do so.

Several Bible statements would outrage the “anti-cult”-driven legal climate of today:

“But now I am writing you to stop keeping company with anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man.” (1 Corinthians 5:11). The Bible writer would be challenged legally today for trying to “control” people; who is he to tell them who they can eat with?

“If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him. For the one who says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works.” (2 John 10)  Ditto. He is “controlling people.” Let them greet whoever they want, even those whom HE finds “wicked.”

“It is necessary to shut their mouths, because these very men keep on subverting entire households by teaching things they should not for the sake of dishonest gain.” (Titus 1:11) Oh? It is “necessary” to restrict someone’s free speech for the sake of “enforcing” your religion? See you in court, Paul.

From time to time, the earthly organization rewords something—like the disfellowshipping announcement or the questions for baptism—to make clear that members are voluntarily adhering to Bible counsel rather than, as opposers try to present it, suffering the bullying of an “evil” “oppressive” “corporation.” It may fail in this one day, because the intent of those hostile to Christianity is to make the Bible verses themselves illegal, or at least make it illegal for anyone to actually follow them.

The goal is to deprive Christians of organization. That way they can more easily be assimilated into the greater word. This is framed hypocritically, even obnoxiously, as an attempt to liberate them. It is no more better realized today than in Russia, where Jehovah’s Witnesses are not illegal, but only their organization is. ‘It’s not the foot-soldier they want to kill off. It’s only the generals that must go. That way the foot-soldier can more easily switch sides—and he will be all the happier for it,’ so the thinking goes. Of course, a scheme so devious cannot be comprehended by the average person, and the authorities simply feel free to beat up on any Witness.

The goal to “liberate” Christians from the organization they form is more advanced in Russia, but it proceeds along the same path in Western lands. “Liberate” them into what?

On 11/2/2019 at 3:50 AM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

There is a very real reason the WTB&TS discourages comprehensive education.

Yes. So that the worldwide rot that it has collectively produced does not manifest itself in the congregation.

 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

TTH:

The fact remains, with all your many words, that we once had a perfect system ... specifically mandated by God ... and what we have now is a kludged together mess, mandated by New York lawyers.

[TrueTomHarley]

21 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

What is happening is that those who refuse discipline are airing their complaints to a world that despises discipline and thereby finding common sympathy. 

Pretty much like this verse, from this week’s Bible reading:

“They originate with the world; that is why they speak what originates with the world and the world listens to them.” (1 John 4:5)

[Witness]

@TrueTomHarley - “They originate with the world; that is why they speak what originates with the world and the world listens to them.” (1 John 4:5)

 

You certainly promote “organization” as necessary to “discipline” an individual spiritually.  Or so it seems.  Your organization is embroiled in lawsuits, investments, stocks, trade, real estate, as many other organization are. It can soar or fail, as any other organization can.  How does this type of “organization” promote one to be “no part of the world”?  Is it because men set their ground rules and have convinced you that by following them, you are no part of the world?   It is a corporate entity at its core.  At YOUR level, you see a facade of spiritual security.  1 Thess 5:3  Look deeper Tom, and you will perceive the glaring truth of worldly as well as spiritual, corruption that runs through the veins of the WT; which means, having any part of it, makes one part of the "world".  

The disciplinary rules are outlined in the Bible.  If we are sincere about following Christ (and not men),we will have the ability to do so without an earthly organization.  Jesus told us that this is the approved way of worship.  John 4:10,13,21-24 

It comes down to whom you will listen to - powerful (in seducing), persuasive men who have built their most awesome empire; or simply, Christ.

3 "However, I’m afraid that as the snake deceived Eve by its tricks, so your minds may somehow be lured away from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4 When someone comes to you telling about another Jesus whom we didn’t tell you about, you’re willing to put up with it. When you receive a spirit that is different from the Spirit you received earlier, you’re also willing to put up with that. When someone tells you good news that is different from the Good News you already accepted, you’re willing to put up with that too."  2 Cor 11:3,4

 

 

 

[TrueTomHarley]

1 hour ago, Witness said:

It comes down to whom you will listen to - powerful (in seducing), persuasive men who have built their most awesome empire; or simply, Christ.

Come, come. Do you really think Stephen Lett is seducing and persuasive? He follows in the footsteps of ones of the first century who were so “ordinary” and “uneducated” that they were embarrassing in a world centered around “wisdom.” People find it necessary to go to bat for him:

https://www.tomsheepandgoats.com/2019/01/let-us-appreciate-brother-lett.html

1 hour ago, Witness said:

Your organization is embroiled in lawsuits, investments, stocks, trade, real estate, as many other organization are. It can soar or fail, as any other organization can.

Last I heard, your organization consisted of a page on Facebook. Thus, every time I see Mark Zuckerburg bumbling his way through Congress, flailing away against charges that he is rotting the fabric of society and handing the country over to the Russians, I am shocked—I tell you, shocked!—that you would be bedfellows with him!

The reason humans organize is so they can do things. The motive to deprive them of organization is so they cannot. It is no more complicated than that.

1 hour ago, Witness said:

If we are sincere about following Christ (and not men),we will have the ability to do so without an earthly organization.

Yes. And if we want to serve Christ we organize so as to best bring our God-given talents to bear. Even when the scoundrels organize, God takes note that they do what they could not do as individual loose cannons:

“Then Jehovah went down to see the city and the tower that the sons of men had built.  Jehovah then said: “Look! They are one people with one language, and this is what they have started to do. Now there is nothing that they may have in mind to do that will be impossible for them.”

Maybe that is what is so odious about a certain branch of Christendom. It is so selfish. “Me & Jesus” is all that counts—being saved. The thought of actually doing anything concrete in service to him turns them right off.

Last I heard, God is pleased when we bring him our best, not when we abstain from what we otherwise could accomplish because it is too much work. You get to “enter Jehovah’s rest” when you take him up on his invitation, rest from your own and thus find refreshment in entering a work that is bigger than yourself. It is by “tasting” that you come to know that “Jehovah is good.”

[Witness]

TTH - "Last I heard, your organization consisted of a page on Facebook."

That is one of many sources where a person can find “good news”. If FB shut me down, I don’t suffer any loss.  If the Watchtower is shut down; well, you saw Stephen Lett’s face when he stated Russia had seized WT’s material holdings, didn’t you?  I don’t pay into facebook, unlike JW’s who pay into a “preaching work” that requires lawyers to fend off victims of child abuse, or to fight for their material holdings in Russia.  Or, tell their lies in court concerning shunning.  

  My “organization” is the anointed Body of Christ. 

 https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/forums/topic/85226-does-god-have-an-organization/

TTH - "Last I heard, God is pleased when we bring him our best, not when we abstain from what we otherwise could accomplish because it is too much work".

Could you be speaking of cart witnessing as bringing God one's "best"?  Oh my.  As if pulling up a chair and saying nothing to people passing by is pleasing to God?

How do you ignore the blatant disrespect the organization has toward the law of the land? Rom 13:1-7 How do you ignore every aspect the WT uses to gain assets in the world, besides free labor to build whatever they wish?  This doesn't please God!  James 5:1-6  This pleases the ruler of this world. Phil 3:17-19

 

 

[JW Insider]

5 hours ago, Witness said:

How does this type of “organization” promote one to be “no part of the world”?

I know this wasn't to me, but I'd like to answer. You know that I don't think it is the organization itself that keeps us apart from the world. I think of the organization as tainted by the world in many ways, too. It's not a magical "ark of the covenant" to have in our possession. It has been and will be run by humans with many failings. And to be an organization in this world it has to associate with non-believers, and worldly people, in much the same way that Paul said:

(1 Corinthians 5:10) . . .Otherwise, you would actually have to get out of the world.

That said, an organization though in this world can very clearly promote being "no part of the world." Just as any Christian can associate with non-believers in the world. An organization can put "Read God's Word the Holy Bible Daily" on the side of its factory buildings. It can put Bible messages on carts that are set up all over big cities. It can promote Bibles, tracts, and magazines that show why one should not participate in wars, divisive politics, unclean habits, immoral behavior, etc. Not saying much of anything while sitting/standing next to a cart is only ONE of many methods used to promote Bibles, tracts, and magazines.

I wonder what you think of the American Bible Society, or even other religious Tract Societies of the 19th and 20th centuries. I agree that the actual spiritual organization that Jehovah and Christ sees does not require the physical Watchtower organization, per se. But I also think that if you put a group of Christians together they will certainly begin considering ways to get the good news of the Kingdom out to as many people as they can over a given time period. A pooling of resources so that willing persons can make use of efficiencies of scale in printing and distributing kingdom related messages will be inevitable. This doesn't mean that the organization is the source of salvation, it's just a reflection of the love for the message and the attempt to share it worldwide as efficiently as possible.

I also think it's true that not every Christian will be working at the center of such an organization, nor will all of them believe that they need to participate in the exact same ministry as the average person associated with the organization. Some will look into ways that TV, Internet, and streaming video can be used to get a message promoted. Some will feel more comfortable helping their neighbors in other ways if they don't feel called to any kind of teaching ministry. I believe that even these ones, who may not participate in all recommended aspects of ministry promoted by the organization will still prefer to attend congregations to learn what is taught by others. And I believe that the teachings they will be attracted to with the most Christian appeal will include some of the teachings I mentioned before: no war, no divisive politics, no hellfire, no Trinity, yes to high moral standards, yes to associating with like-minded Christians.

The organization Jehovah and Jesus looks for is invisible, I agree. It includes direct communication with Jehovah in our personal lives (through prayer, study, and our requests for a measure of holy spirit) for guidance, in the same way that the Governing Body directly communicates with Jehovah (through prayer, study, and their requests for a measure of holy spirit). We are not "brought to Christ" through the Governing Body. We are responsible for our own spiritual lives. We are each to be concerned with what sort of person we ought to be, not based on what someone else tells us:

(Philippians 2:12, 13) . . .keep working out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For God is the one who for the sake of his good pleasure energizes you, giving you both the desire and the power to act.

(2 Corinthians 5:9, 10) 9 So whether at home with him or absent from him, we make it our aim to be acceptable to him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of the Christ, so that each one may be repaid according to the things he has practiced while in the body, whether good or bad.

(Galatians 6:4, 5) . . .But let each one examine his own actions, and then he will have cause for rejoicing in regard to himself alone, and not in comparison with the other person. 5 For each one will carry his own load.

But I also don't think that all we do is somehow negated by associating with others of like faith who are just as well meaning as we are, and who are also persons we can help strengthen and comfort and encourage, just as they can also do for us. Do you really think that even associating with fellow Witnesses is so bad that Jehovah cannot see our hearts, and find us in his "invisible" organization, too?

(Romans 11:2-6) . . .Do you not know what the scripture says in connection with E·liʹjah, as he pleads with God against Israel? 3 “Jehovah, they have killed your prophets, they have dug up your altars, and I alone am left, and now they are trying to take my life.” 4 Yet, what does the divine pronouncement say to him? “I have left for myself 7,000 men who have not bent the knee to Baʹal.” 5 So in the same way, at the present time also, there is a remnant according to a choosing through undeserved kindness. 6 Now if it is by undeserved kindness, it is no longer through works; otherwise, the undeserved kindness would no longer be undeserved kindness.