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Matthew9969

Permission to get baptized

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Matthew9969 -
Andre Plamondon -
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So I have heard that witnesses need to pass a 80 question exam by the elders. Why do you need to pass an exam, and if you pass isn't this getting permission from men to have a personal relationship with Christ?

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7 hours ago, Matthew9969 said:

So I have heard that witnesses need to pass a 80 question exam by the elders. Why do you need to pass an exam, and if you pass isn't this getting permission from men to have a personal relationship with Christ?

This requirement is in harmony with a suggestion from Ronald J Sider in his book, “The Scandal of the Evangelical Concience” in which he explores the question: “Why are Christians living just like the rest of the world?” Their conduct is so shocking that it should “drive us to our knees in repentance,” he says.

The specific remedy that he offered was: “Make it harder to join.” So he does not agree that just saying you have a personal relationship with Christ is enough. 

This is just one of four proposed remedies he offered. As it turns out, Jehovah’s Witnesses employ them all. And yes, they do go a long way in cleaning up the mess of words not matching deeds that afflicts the evangelical world. I wrote about it here:

    Hello guest!

 

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1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

even remotely

Oh. Maybe you really did not see the connection. He asked why isn’t it easy to be a Witness? (why the 80 questions) I responded with Sider’s observation that it is not good for it to be easy. The quickie version results in conduct indistinguishable from the world.

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Considering your unrelated answer, TTH, I am beginning to wonder if you saw his actual question.  It is quite clear you did not comprehend it as written, as you wandered off-topic about something you had already prepared, before he asked his question.

Just for Yuks, heah tis',  his question quoted:

12 hours ago, Matthew9969 said:

So I have heard that witnesses need to pass a 80 question exam by the elders. Why do you need to pass an exam, and if you pass isn't this getting permission from men to have a personal relationship with Christ?

There is a problem with his question, as I am sure you are well aware ... it's HARDER and more complex than the question you answered  ....... that was not asked.

....AND ... as usual, today's Dilbert Cartoon addresses this kind of presumptuousness, specifically:  (" ... I left it that one for you while I answered the more far-reaching one that he should have asked." - TTH)

dt191106.gif

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We have, it seems two sort of "burden" or "yoke". And two ways how implement this in person?s life.

We have Jesus' "burden" he ask us to carry. 

And we see "Organizational" way of implementations of principles set by Jesus. Organization as such have need to broaden administrative system of ruling over people. If person want to candidate for some job, he have to give his CV and answer on questions by boss. If you want to be as volunteer member in one religious organization, not to be paid for work you done in own name, but under elders leadership, you are also obligated to be guided by some rules. It seems logical, BUT we have here some spiritual moments that make this 80 questions as human invention not empowered by spirit. In example of man who, after some time/hours of talking with Philip said, See, here is water!  

And this example is not unique in Bible.

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5 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

There is a problem with his question

Fine. Give me your address and any persons who want to be baptized yet refuse to provide any evidence that they know what they are doing I will send to you. You can baptize them in your tub and they can help you scour the funnies for items to post.

Let them all be islands unto themselves if they like. No one will interfere with that decision.

Even the 80 questions is not enough in our congregation. We make people punch in at meetings. It cuts down on stragglers.

BD869908-3708-42E3-9204-DAD110499333.jpeg

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5 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Fine. Give me your address and any persons who want to be baptized yet refuse to provide any evidence that they know what they are doing I will send to you

I find it quite funny that Srecko destroyed your inability to form sarcasm here in this post, without intent, with his example of the Ethiopian and Phillip before your comment. 

Acts 8: 35-38

Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus.

 As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, “Look, here is water. What can stand in the way of my being baptized?”  And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him.

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4 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

any persons who want to be baptized yet refuse to provide any evidence that they know what they are doing 

That is why clergy in some churches can show evidence for what they know. Some Diploma. :))

Elders have no diploma or prove for credential. Do they have to answer on 80 or 180 questions to be accepted as servants. No, all they need is to be appointed by GB and Spirit or by CO. You would know better how it works today.

This process is different. JW's are merely volunteers. All of them, GB, elders, members.   Volunteers not need to have evidence for education level, or some formal degree for qualification in some field. They learning while walking. Somebody told/teach them in few sentences what they have to do, and that is that. :)))  That is voluntarism. You don't need special knowledge, but wish, desire and good will to do something for free for other people benefit.

As for baptism, person need to meet much less than 80 questions: - Do you believe? Do you repent? Do you love? Do you have faith? Perhaps, when Jesus speaking about knowing God as fundamental for eternal life,  he meant on few basic points: love, faith and trust as evidences that God looking for to see in mind and heart of individual.

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9 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Can you really destroy an inability? And if you could, wouldn’t that be a good thing?

Yes, Tom, I should have worded it differently. Choose one:

 

Srecko destroyed your attempt at sarcasm here in this post,

Srecko destroyed your post.

Srecko dismantled your sarcasm here in this post,

 

Point is still, without trying, he made your statement void before you even said it. 

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Does this mean Jesus needed theological schooling to spread the Good news? Which school did Jesus attend to be considered a “rabbi” by the Jews? Which school did Jesus send his apostles?

Where in the Bible is that written on?

Is anyone aware of what “Catechesis” means?

What good is a theology diploma if that person doesn’t practice or abide by scripture as taught by Jesus?

Is baptism a joke or is it a very serious matter that even Jesus didn’t partake until he was 30 years old. Even as the son of God, baptism is a covenant with God. A promise not to fall into the temptations of this world by obeying God.

Baptism is a literal conviction toward God’s grace. What kind of diploma is needed for that? What an Elder does need to do is observe how serious a person is in dedicating their lives in service of God by baptism just like Jesus.

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2 hours ago, Ray Devereaux said:

Is baptism a joke or is it a very serious matter that even Jesus didn’t partake until he was 30 years old. Even as the son of God, baptism is a covenant with God. A promise not to fall into the temptations of this world by obeying God.

I would have to agree, it is serious and should not be taken lightly. However, the number of children baptized into being jws is pretty high and when Tony Morris is telling folks to keep a drivers license away from a child UNTIL they get baptized, leads me to believe that a jw baptism is done for many reasons other then the individual's seriousness towards God. 

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1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

I would have to agree, it is serious and should not be taken lightly.

 

1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

Tony Morris is telling folks to keep a drivers license away from a child UNTIL they get baptized

That would be a hypothetical situation. I would imagine a parent would prevent a teenage child from driving if that youth is not ready to take the written and physical test just like it should be done in order to see if an individual is spiritually mature to be baptized.  Spiritual maturity come to individuals by many ages in life. I will agree a “baby” should not be baptized just to satisfy a church tradition.

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8 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

Yes, Tom, I should have worded it differently. 

Where are we going with this? Are we back to “all roads lead to heaven?” Or “it doesn’t matter what you believe as long a you are sincere?” Maybe people believe this. Witnesses don’t.

9 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Elders have no diploma or prove for credential.

Where would you send them to secure a diploma?

Are we starting to recommend ourselves again? Or do we need, like some men, letters of recommendation to you or from you? You yourselves are our letter, inscribed on our hearts and known and being read by all mankind.” 2 Corinthians 3:2

There you go. The proof is in the doing.

Just like when “Phillip attached himself to the chariot.” What were his credentials? That Phillip attached himself to the chariot. The proof lay in the doing. The eunuch did not even ask to see his diploma.

The man was a Jewish proselyte. What had he been doing to while away the time while traveling? Reading aloud the prophet Isaiah. It’s what he did for fun. Thus, there is every reason to suppose that he was thoroughly familiar with the Jewish framework and needed clarification on just one key point, the one he asked about. Once he had that missing piece supplied and sounded down, he was good to go. That is why his baptism could take place so quickly, in the course of his journey. 

Rarely is this the case today. Far more common is that people have no pre-knowledge whatsoever about the Bible. Often they have been taught some unbiblical doctrines that thoroughly confound understanding of the Word. This all takes time to straighten out. JWs are not a “come down and be saved” faith. An understanding of the Bible does not come instantaneously. Go find a “come down and be saved” faith if you want one. There are enough of them out there.

In the meantime, “attaching oneself to the chariot” is something that very few do other than Jehovah’s Witnesses. That is the proof of their serving God: that they serve him. It has nothing to do with a diploma. If others also claim to be true followers of Christ, let God figure it out. I don’t have to. It is enough for me to follow through on what I have convinced myself is right. As it turns out, there are millions who feel exactly the same why. That is why we clump together. 

Coming back to how elders are appointed, Jehovah’s Witnesses again adhere to the biblical pattern. Elders are appointed by traveling representatives. It was true then. It is true now.

There they strengthened the disciples, encouraging them to remain in the faith and saying: “We must enter into the Kingdom of God through many tribulations. Moreover, they appointed elders for them in each congregation, offering prayer with fasting, and they entrusted them to Jehovah (Acts 14:22-23)

“I left you in Crete so that you would correct the things that were defective and make appointments of elders in city after city, as I instructed you:  (Titus 1:5)

No mention is made of a diploma.

 

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On 11/5/2019 at 11:53 PM, Matthew9969 said:

have heard that witnesses need to pass a 80 question exam by the elders

Questions which determine if the person understands the basics are important....... the person must   understand what we believe and what their obligations are regarding moral obedience to jehovah. It is a loving  to make sure that the person understands.

The reason I was searching for the truth was that I was affirmed in the Dutch Reformed Church at age 16.  We attended class for three months once a week. The day before baptism of the entire group the minister asked a question about the randsom.  A student answered incorrectly.  The answer was: Jesus.  This appalled me that students were allowed to be baptised without understanding this basic teaching. 

Later I retracted my membership of the church. 

 

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6 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Where would you send them to secure a diploma?

Are we starting to recommend ourselves again? Or do we need, like some men, letters of recommendation to you or from you? You yourselves are our letter, inscribed on our hearts and known and being read by all mankind.” 2 Corinthians 3:2

There you go. The proof is in the doing.

Do you go to doctor who "know how" to help in your sickness, but have no diploma for that? Do you go on his/their door because of your endless trust to people who proclaim that they can heal people, or you go there because he finished some education? There is people who can help without having certificate. But when he help you in wrong way you have no basis for asking him to "pay" you because he make your life or health to be problematic. You choose him to do job he is not qualified for.

In this matter, JW members have big trust on human who take a lead. Well, you can, of course show trust to both group, with and without diploma. 

If that how it is with elders, only words of other people that this elder can be trusted without question, similar way of logic you can use on people (candidates for baptism) who have to proof how their deeds and intentions are good, too. 

6 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Coming back to how elders are appointed, Jehovah’s Witnesses again adhere to the biblical pattern. Elders are appointed by traveling representatives. It was true then. It is true now.

Yes, this i like to hear. :)) So, this old ferry tails about how, after period of how congregants voting for elders, was also another period and that is, when holy spirit appointing elders, we now have that "biblical pattern" how in fact only legitimate way is when "traveling representatives" doing this.

Well:

1) voting is wrong way

2) spirit is wrong way

What are all those elders in and from period of 1) and 2) ?  What are their "credentials", how much value have their spiritual service if way of appointing them was been administrative error of WT Society? Errors made by voters and by spirit, who have illegally done something for what they have no authorization? 

And CO today have such authorization, :))) Who put them on that position of CO? Spirit, voters, GB, or previous CO? :))) 

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@Matthew9969 The choice of Baptism is up to the individual themselves, and that they feel that they are ready to full serve Jehovah God. Pretty much if they're ready for such a task they go about the steps taken to reach that Spiritual Goal. 

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14 hours ago, Ray Devereaux said:

I would imagine a parent would prevent a teenage child from driving if that youth is not ready to take the written and physical test just like it should be done in order to see if an individual is spiritually mature to be baptized.

agreed.

 

14 hours ago, Ray Devereaux said:

. I will agree a “baby” should not be baptized just to satisfy a church tradition.

isn't that what was proposed in Tony's hypothetical situation? 

14 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

No mention is made of a diploma.

no mention of dedicating oneself to an organization either. 

5 hours ago, Equivocation said:

 The choice of Baptism is up to the individual themselves

or their parents according to Tony Morris. 

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10 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

No mention is made of a diploma. 

no mention of dedicating oneself to an organization either. 

 

I believe it goes without saying. 

And let us consider one another so as to incite to love and fine works,  not forsaking our meeting together, as some have the custom.” 

However, I have come around to seeing your point. I will tell Bethel to award diplomas to elders upon being appointed. They obviously are the ones qualified to do it. Not only do they specialize in advanced and applied Bible study for 150 years, but they have the added qualification of showing that they can DO something with it, something that is often lacking in more traditional schools of higher learning.

What is a diploma? Essentially, is it anything more than a paper testifying that you have successfully answered someone’s 80 questions? So why should you ask the questions? What in the world do you have to offer? 

No. They qualify to ask the questions. And award the diplomas, should they ever choose to. 

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11 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

their parents according to Tony Morris. 

Asking questions is a good thing - to establish if the person really understands what the bible teaches and their personal moral obligations.  ...... in other words understand the seriousness of their dedication (promise). ..... in laymens terms...... what they are getting into....... 

Despite this process, some here on this forum did not understand their public promise they made and got themselves in an undesirable situation by brazen conduct and then rebellion and outside the JWs. THEN they turn around and critisize the GB and do not take any responsibility for their own actions - like Adam, it is always someone else's fault. Blame it on the seducing wife/lover, domineering elders or crazy, unqualified GB.  ...... 

I think that parents should be smart and have the right to say something while the child is under 16 (the age one can take responsibility for driving a car), some children mature later.   Jesus asked deep questions at age 12 but one cannot put an age on something like this.  I know of an almost 90 year old anounted sister who got baptised at age 9 - still faithful with no ego or other problems.

 

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@Shiwiii No, I was only encouraged to seek Baptism,  even my late uncle who had no religous affiliation,  but was very hard on applying the Bible also encouraged me and others in my family Caza despues del bautismo y se salvo, as he puts it. But as I grew older, I took the steps necessary torwards Baptism myself, especially during my early preteen years. I made thos choice because I firmly accept what the Scriptures teach about Jehovah God and his Christ and I took the time and effort to put the teachings of the Scriptures first, even as far as to mold myself to be a better Christian, and a declaring that I myself want to serve God fully, and in doing so, I go about with the tools that I have been given to teach what Jesus taught regarding the good news and what the Kingdom would bring - caso y punto.

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12 hours ago, Arauna said:

Asking questions is a good thing - to establish if the person really understands what the bible teaches and their personal moral obligations.  ...... in other words understand the seriousness of their dedication (promise). ..... in laymens terms...... what they are getting into....... 

Despite this process, some here on this forum did not understand their public promise they made and got themselves in an undesirable situation by brazen conduct and then rebellion and outside the JWs. THEN they turn around and critisize the GB and do not take any responsibility for their own actions - like Adam, it is always someone else's fault. Blame it on the seducing wife/lover, domineering elders or crazy, unqualified GB.  ...... 

I think that parents should be smart and have the right to say something while the child is under 16 (the age one can take responsibility for driving a car), some children mature later.   Jesus asked deep questions at age 12 but one cannot put an age on something like this.  I know of an almost 90 year old anounted sister who got baptised at age 9 - still faithful with no ego or other problems.

 

 

Sure, ask questions. I agree with you that a person should be diligent in their understanding of what it is they are doing. I feel the same as you in regards to blaming the gb for their mistake. A person needs to be aware of their own hand in mistakes and learn form them. 

Sure, we as parents, those of us who are, should be responsible enough to not let our children get involved in something if we know that they are not capable of understanding the risks involved. 

The part you missed is where Tony Morris said that parents should withhold a drivers license from an assumed 16 year old, UNTIL they get baptized. That is what I was referring to, 

7 hours ago, Equivocation said:

@Shiwiii No, I was only encouraged to seek Baptism,  even my late uncle who had no religous affiliation,  but was very hard on applying the Bible also encouraged me and others in my family Caza despues del bautismo y se salvo, as he puts it. But as I grew older, I took the steps necessary torwards Baptism myself, especially during my early preteen years. I made thos choice because I firmly accept what the Scriptures teach about Jehovah God and his Christ and I took the time and effort to put the teachings of the Scriptures first, even as far as to mold myself to be a better Christian, and a declaring that I myself want to serve God fully, and in doing so, I go about with the tools that I have been given to teach what Jesus taught regarding the good news and what the Kingdom would bring - caso y punto.

I wasn't singling you out at all, only making the statement that Tony Morris did. see my response to Arauna

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1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

16 year old, UNTIL they get baptized. That is what I was referring to, 

I presume you are quoting him correctly.  I do not agree with him...... but fortunately it is a personal choice what one does in your home and with your children. 

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2 hours ago, Arauna said:

I presume you are quoting him correctly.  I do not agree with him...... but fortunately it is a personal choice what one does in your home and with your children. 

agreed, it is a personal choice when it comes to our children. 

I encourage you to watch Tony's message and then, if you are willing, let me know what you think of his talk. You can even shoot me a private message if you'd like, but I am very curious what you think of it. It was in the 2015 regional convention, last talk on sunday. 

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Yes it would be asking permission to people who act as if they are authorized to say yes or no. These actors were called ὑποκριτής hupokritēs in Greek. When the best actors are the elders, we might still need a Savior, if we don't wake up.

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