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Jack Ryan

All Eight Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses members are now individually named on two New York Child Victims Act case documents

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JW CSA Survivors in ALL 50 States can seek justice under the New York Child Victims Act

This law firm confirmed it. You can ask them :

Jehovah's Witness Sex Abuse Lawyers

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Also, amongst other proof, Irwin Zalkin confirmed this on a video...links to that and other proof is in this video :

The New York Child Victims Act is for JW CSA Survivors in ALL 50 States

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"Although McDaniel's alleged abuse occurred in Oklahoma, her attorneys said they would argue that Watchtower, which is based in New York, enabled the conduct by way of negligent policies."

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I know nothing about law and defo' nothing about American law. So can someone kindly break this down into simple terms for me.

What exactly are the GB members being accused of ? I ask because I don't want to gain or give wrong information. 

Does this involve the Child Sex Abuse database ? It is does would it mean the GB / Lawyers would have to hand over the database to the courts / authorities ? 

Maybe @TrueTomHarley would have some kind of 'level headed' input on this ?

@James Thomas Rook Jr.  I haven't got to understand where you are in / out of JW Org but do you have any 'sensible' input to this ? 

You may or may not know but us British are not allowed to receive some info' / news reports etc, from some countries. I often go in to do research and get a bit NO from certain sites. Something to do with data protection maybe ? 

So I am deeply interested in this info from @Jack Ryan . Thank you Jack. But I'd honestly like some level headed, neutral information to clarify what the GB members are being accused of and what it will or could mean for the JW Org. 

I have often seen on this Forum that the GB are the top guys and cannot be removed from 'office' as there is no one in a position to remove them. Will this court action make a difference to the GB's position in the JW Org ? 

I have to agree with @TrueTomHarley on many things he says. The JW Org speaks truth according to scripture on many things. And with a bit of tweaking it might just serve God well :) . The GB or Writing dept' do spoil it all though with, what i call running ahead of God. So I do wonder what the future holds for JW Org. 

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7 hours ago, Jack Ryan said:

Google

As I said before: eight old men who never personally touched a child (actually too innocent  to comprehend how wicked people can be - too good for this world), mentioned in court documents while people like Epstein who had 37 cases against him in 2007 got off because the FBI covered up for him and went after the victims. A plea bargain made without the victim's lawyers informed.

All Epstein's workers who knew what was going on since 2007, all his high-up friends and his girlfriend who coached the girls - NOTHING!   New cases in England as well where rape gangs raped young girls - covered up.

What does that tell you about the condition of the world when the real unscrupulous predators go off free and the innocent who do NOT condone this, are accused.   

People like you - who just go after JWs- get so much joy out of this......... but this tells me personally that when good is bad and bad is good, we are ever closer to Armageddon.

Just a little while longer and the wicked will be no more....... thanks to Jehovah, Jesus is the judge.

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3 hours ago, Arauna said:

As I said before: eight old men who never personally touched a child (actually too innocent  to comprehend how wicked people can be - too good for this world), mentioned in court documents while people like Epstein who had 37 cases against him in 2007 got off because the FBI covered up for him and went after the victims. A plea bargain made without the victim's lawyers informed.

All Epstein's workers who knew what was going on since 2007, all his high-up friends and his girlfriend who coached the girls - NOTHING!   New cases in England as well where rape gangs raped young girls - covered up.

What does that tell you about the condition of the world when the real unscrupulous predators go off free and the innocent who do NOT condone this, are accused.   

People like you - who just go after JWs- get so much joy out of this......... but this tells me personally that when good is bad and bad is good, we are ever closer to Armageddon.

Just a little while longer and the wicked will be no more....... thanks to Jehovah, Jesus is the judge.

And the organization is sinless?  How easy it is for JWs to continually point to the world’s sins and refuse to acknowledge the sins of God’s people.  1 Cor 6:4-8  Whose sins are greater in God’s eyes?  The sins of those who claim to worship Him, or of those who don’t? 

“My people are fools;
they do not know me.
They are senseless children;
they have no understanding.
They are skilled in doing evil;
they know not how to do good.” Jer 4:22

‘How can you say,
"WE ARE WISE,
FOR WE HAVE THE LAW OF THE LORD,"
WHEN ACTUALLY THE LYING PEN OF THE SCRIBES
HAS HANDLED IT FALSELY?"

“The wise will be put to shame;
they will be dismayed and trapped.
Since they have rejected the word of the Lord,
what kind of wisdom do they have?” Jer 8:8,9

 

 

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4 hours ago, Arauna said:

As I said before: eight old men who never personally touched a child (actually too innocent  to comprehend how wicked people can be - too good for this world), mentioned in court documents while people like Epstein who had 37 cases against him in 2007 got off because the FBI covered up for him and went after the victims. A plea bargain made without the victim's lawyers informed.

All Epstein's workers who knew what was going on since 2007, all his high-up friends and his girlfriend who coached the girls - NOTHING!   New cases in England as well where rape gangs raped young girls - covered up.

What does that tell you about the condition of the world when the real unscrupulous predators go off free and the innocent who do NOT condone this, are accused.   

People like you - who just go after JWs- get so much joy out of this......... but this tells me personally that when good is bad and bad is good, we are ever closer to Armageddon.

Just a little while longer and the wicked will be no more....... thanks to Jehovah, Jesus is the judge.

@Arauna How do you actually know that the GB members  " never personally touched a child (actually too innocent  to comprehend how wicked people can be - too good for this world), " ? 

There is it seems a massive data base of Child Sexual Abuse accusations hidden within the Org. And do you have all that information, so that you know who is and who isn't on that list ?  Do you know why the GB are holding back that list ? 

In Australia the brothers must have handed over their list of names about CSA accusations.

Here in the UK, after court action, the brothers handed over their list of CSA accusation.

But in the USA the GB and /or their lawyers are refusing to hand over their information ? 

Someone will scream 'but the laws are different in USA'. It would make no difference if the laws are different in USA,   IF the GB would act on the scripture 'We must obey God as ruler, rather than men'. 

Seems quite funny that the GB /Org tells people to disobey laws of man when it involves some things, such as joining the armed forces, but yet the GB hides behind laws when it suits them. 

@Srecko Sostar  Thank you, but did you actually read ALL of that ?  Sorry i only read bits. Too much for me. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Witness said:

refuse to acknowledge the sins of God’s people

By your words you  judge ALL of gods people..... A very low percentage of witnesses committed child molestation - something which is very hard to prove. Few people know that even university professionals did not know for a very long time what to do about this problem. Most professionals for many years allowed the child to go back into the home of the perpetrator- did you know this history of the professionals at universities?

It is easy to judge.... something I have noticed you do all the time (it is the automatic OCD-mode).  Since you are always using scriptures in deceitful way...... here is one for you...... 

James:  " the tongue represents a world of unrighteousness among our body members, for it defiles all the body and sets the whole course of life on fire, and it is set on fire by Ge·henʹna.  ...... Stop speaking against one another, brothers. Whoever speaks against a brother or judges his brother speaks against law and judges law. Now if you judge law, you are not a doer of law but a judge. "

58 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

massive data base of Child

You are talking about the massive database of 1200 persons which happened from the years 1950's until present day?  About 70 years?  

There were NO laws in place in most countries until 1980s...... this was a taboo subject is most countries and there was no legislation in place. Most organizations that worked with children just turned a blind eye - there is no proof of them doing anything!

JWs kept databases to inform other congregations of problems - so suspected perpetrators could not move from congregation to congregation.  They were the only organization to do this-  and they are the ones who are denegraded for this and received media focus...... . Other organizations working with children did NOTHING.  More than 2000 organizations were asked about procedures during the Australian enquiry - but enemies of JWs only focus on JW statistics because they kept them......

By the way - the last legislation was passed in 2003- if I remember correctly.  This made it easier in court to get a conviction. Before this date the young child could be cross-examined in court in front of the perpetrator! 

 

 

 

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47 minutes ago, Arauna said:

By your words you  judge ALL of gods people..... A very low percentage of witnesses committed child molestation - something which is very hard to prove. Few people know that even university professionals did not know for a very long time what to do about this problem. Most professionals for many years allowed the child to go back into the home of the perpetrator- did you know this history of the professionals at universities?

It is easy to judge.... something I have noticed you do all the time (it is the automatic OCD-mode).  Since you are always using scriptures in deceitful way...... here is one for you...... 

James:  " the tongue represents a world of unrighteousness among our body members, for it defiles all the body and sets the whole course of life on fire, and it is set on fire by Ge·henʹna.  ...... Stop speaking against one another, brothers. Whoever speaks against a brother or judges his brother speaks against law and judges law. Now if you judge law, you are not a doer of law but a judge. "

You are talking about the massive database of 1200 persons which happened from the years 1950's until present day?  About 70 years?  

There were NO laws in place in most countries until 1980s...... this was a taboo subject is most countries and there was no legislation in place. Most organizations that worked with children just turned a blind eye - there is no proof of them doing anything!

JWs kept databases to inform other congregations of problems - so suspected perpetrators could not move from congregation to congregation.  They were the only organization to do this-  and they are the ones who are denegraded for this and received media focus...... . Other organizations working with children did NOTHING.  More than 2000 organizations were asked about procedures during the Australian enquiry - but enemies of JWs only focus on JW statistics because they kept them......

By the way - the last legislation was passed in 2003- if I remember correctly.  This made it easier in court to get a conviction. Before this date the young child could be cross-examined in court in front of the perpetrator! 

 

 

 

What seems to have been proven in courts is that Elders deliberately hid the information from congregants, hence elders or others could continue to commit CSA offences,  and also that elders that had committed CSA WERE moved from one congregation to another. Those things HAVE been proven in court cases. So your defence of the GB Org is not so true. 

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1 hour ago, Arauna said:

By your words you  judge ALL of gods people..... A very low percentage of witnesses committed child molestation - something which is very hard to prove. Few people know that even university professionals did not know for a very long time what to do about this problem. Most professionals for many years allowed the child to go back into the home of the perpetrator- did you know this history of the professionals at universities?

Arauna, you continue to revert back to entities outside of the organization to “compare” sins.  1 Pet 4:17

If this is the case, the organization is no better than any other.  But if it truly was “Jehovah’s organization”, it should be better, shouldn’t it.  After all, it boasts it is the way to spiritual salvation and “righteousness”.  Righteous practices are so far removed from the GB's agenda when it comes to child abuse.  

God’s WORD judges His anointed people. 2 Pet 3:5-7   Since the GB choose to follow their own “words”, their ordinances concerning child abuse, your scriptures in James aptly applies…to them.   2 Pet 3:10; Jer 23:29

The prophet’s words are not so archaic that they do not apply to God’s people today.  

 

Rev 18:4-8

 

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8 hours ago, Arauna said:

As I said before: eight old men who never personally touched a child (actually too innocent  to comprehend how wicked people can be - too good for this world), mentioned in court documents while people like Epstein who had 37 cases against him in 2007 got off because the FBI covered up for him and went after the victims. A plea bargain made without the victim's lawyers informed.

All Epstein's workers who knew what was going on since 2007, all his high-up friends and his girlfriend who coached the girls - NOTHING!   New cases in England as well where rape gangs raped young girls - covered up.

What does that tell you about the condition of the world when the real unscrupulous predators go off free and the innocent who do NOT condone this, are accused.   

People like you - who just go after JWs- get so much joy out of this......... but this tells me personally that when good is bad and bad is good, we are ever closer to Armageddon.

Just a little while longer and the wicked will be no more....... thanks to Jehovah, Jesus is the judge.

Lol this kind of reasoning cracks me up, too innocent to tell lies too innocent to appear in front of the court too innocent to be buying whisky 😆😆😆 

How do U know as a fact they have never touched anyone inappropriately, not saying they have but to make such statement that they have never U must have good evidence.

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10 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

WERE moved from one congregation to another.

If a person was involved in wrongdoing  the elders cannot STOP them to move to a new location - only inform the new location. This (jws) is NOT a dictatorship...... a word you love to use. ..... ONE minute you judge us for being too harsh and the next that we are too soft? Heh?   Perfect logic? Want to eat pie on BOTH sides..... 

Would you like it if you committed fornication or  some other act if the entire act was announced to the congregation?   Where does mercy begin and harshness end?    Thank goodness humans are not the judge but Jehovah and his son.   If someone from outside congregation attends our meetings parents must watch their children.   It is not our place to decide  who is worthy of everlasting life.

Again: must we tell this person they are not welcome ?  Throw them out?  Especially when the top government officials are coverring up these kind of  crimes when people have money..... so NO redemption for the poor?   

It is EASY to judge and break down when your own sense if justice is aske. Jah sees it from both sides.

Study the laws that were in place and do not judge us by the current laws retroactively  but by the neglect of congress (regress) to not put proper laws in place. 

9 hours ago, Witness said:

you continue to revert back to entities outside of the organization to “compare” sins.  1 Pet 4:17

If this is the case, the organization is no better than any ot

You have the idea that JWs live in a protected bubble. What you do not realize is that  individuals can deviate from Jehovahs standards and bring dishonor to jehovah AND those who serve him -  just as you are doing with your OCD opus operandi of hate

 

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11 hours ago, Arauna said:

 A very low percentage of witnesses committed child molestation - something which is very hard to prove. 

If i may join.

We need some research about how many JW committed CM. But WT Society as Conglomerate who run Company, Corporation and Religion in the same time from one Central place in US are not willing to publish such information to no one - neither to Courts nor to Members. Some sort of exception is what was happen in Australia. But such database is only for Australia Branch Office. Even with such reduced insight, we saw how 1006 JW members and those who has been very closely related to JW congregations, committed  crime. Many of them was MS and elders. Is that percentage small or big, we can discuss. But because of nature of crime and because of nature of JW church who has the highest moral standards, as they claim for themselves, any number is too high and embarrassing.

11 hours ago, Arauna said:

Few people know that even university professionals did not know for a very long time what to do about this problem.

 Very very short respond: If WT Society is run by Spirit, than Spirit would know how to handle this problem. 

11 hours ago, Arauna said:

 Stop speaking against one another, brothers. Whoever speaks against a brother or judges his brother speaks against law and judges law. Now if you judge law, you are not a doer of law but a judge. "

When we are in negative mode because talking often about bad things and problems, that can be a burden for both, ourselves and those who listen to us. Sometimes it is hard to "escape" this, because many of us had been very long in JW organization.

11 hours ago, Arauna said:

JWs kept databases to inform other congregations of problems - so suspected perpetrators could not move from congregation to congregation.  They were the only organization to do this-  and they are the ones who are denegraded for this and received media focus...... . Other organizations working with children did NOTHING. 

If it is what you say, than JW members would know about all this when open JW TV. But there is no news, documents on JW Broadcast about what going on. 

Also, WT Australia not joined National Redress Scheme. What can be reason for that? Perhaps, because WT don't want to admit any responsibility about CM. They have no intend to join. And such stand is unacceptable.  

The Australian Government is encouraging all institutions responsible for child sexual abuse, including those listed below, to join the Scheme without delay. - 

    Hello guest!

 

 If GB run all moves of secular and spiritual nature from one Central place, and request of all people inside church to obey every decision, than they are responsible. And that is why we have GB members listed as Defendants in newest Court case.     

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Arauna seems to have OCD about hating all ex Witnesses and about being blind to faults with the GB and the JW Org. 

She even seems to have OCD about using the expression OCD. 

Quote "ONE minute you judge us for being too harsh and the next that we are too soft? "

Yes too harsh by punishing some who were actually victims, but too soft by protecting paedophile elders and ministerial servants. Sorry to be so harsh but it HAS BEEN PROVEN in court cases, here in UK as well as in USA. Arauna, I'm talking facts here. There is real proof of my statement. 

Quote "Would you like it if you committed fornication or  some other act if the entire act was announced to the congregation? "

Didn't the Apostle Paul do exactly that ?   1 Corinthians 5 v 1 

    Hello guest!

It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father's wife. 

But I'm not talking about fornication between two consenting adults, I'm talking about Child Sexual Abuse by an adult member of the congregation. 

Quote "Study the laws that were in place and do not judge us by the current laws retroactively  but by the neglect of congress (regress) to not put proper laws in place."

I know nothing of law and certainly i know nothing about American law,  BUT, remember, 'We must serve God as ruler, rather then men'. God's laws should be written on the hearts of those taking the lead. So to use secular law as an excuse to mishandle those breaking God's laws, makes no sense. 

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9 hours ago, Arauna said:

You have the idea that JWs live in a protected bubble. What you do not realize is that  individuals can deviate from Jehovahs standards and bring dishonor to jehovah AND those who serve him -  just as you are doing with your OCD opus operandi of hate

 

Actually, it is the majority of JWs who believe they live in a protective bubble – a spiritual paradise.  This idea is fostered by the GB. Yes, your GB who teach such lies is very responsible for the destructive effect their falsehoods have produced.  I remember thinking when a young woman in the organization, that I had entered a place where God generously protected those who worshiped Him.  When one hears teachings such as…

  • In this troubled world, the Christian congregation is a spiritual oasis. It is a haven of peace and love. w02 3/15 pp. 24-25 
  • But those who are part of Jehovah’s organization are presently enjoying the security of a spiritual paradise. kl chap. 17 pp. 160-169  

…the emotional response is one of inner “peace” and “security”. (1 Thess 5:3 )  In a haven of peace and love, most would not, could not, be convinced that the threat of evil also resides in this haven.   It wasn’t until my husband became an elder that reality very slowly began to seep into my brain.  Although I didn’t know the reasons for his many shepherding visits, or late night phone calls, I could see the strain on his face caused by whatever it was he was dealing with; and the spiritual, protective bubble that I had believed in, was growing weaker by the year. I began to comprehend how being in the organization was causing strain on him, his wife and his three little boys. My bubble of the haven of peace, love and spiritual security, eventually burst.  My husband has since told me he dealt with issues of marital and child abuse, although I never asked who was involved.

 God does not generously protect a JW from another JW,in the WT’s spiritual paradise of peace and security.    This is why exJWs speak out harshly against the organization’s sins.  While you have your studies with newly interested ones, believing you are feeding them truth; endeavoring to aid them in joining the organization, you are in fact, introducing them to a world of twisted teachings that possibly will cause great suffering and heartbreak in the future…unless, as a coping mechanism, they choose to become blind and deaf to the harsh realities that exist in their new world – the world you live in.  Their love for the organization supersedes their love for God's righteous justice.  Rom 1:25; Rev 13:4

In my early WT years, I was once told by a JW at a convention, that I shouldn’t leave my valuables on the seat when taking my baby to the restroom.  Why? Because there were many visitors who were not JWs and whose motives were to take advantage of God’s sheep-like people.   Even she believed she lived in a protective bubble as a JW. 

One who commits child abuse has a disease that needs attention by qualified professionals; otherwise the disease continues to fester.  If your GB members were spiritually keen men, they would have dealt effectively with these issues from day one. What did they choose to do?  Hide them, catalog them, and why?  What good did that do, but show their lack of spiritual abilities?  To hide sins is evil – pure evil.  The Pharisees were accused of the same.  Matt 23:25 

I barely keep up with the child abuse cases involving JWs.  But one thing that is brought out many times that I noticed, is that the perpetrator is moved by an elder to another congregation, because the perpetrator is also an elder.  Or he independently moves on his own. 

 

For consideration - "What's Wrong with 'peace and security?"  

    Hello guest!

 

 

 

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52 minutes ago, Witness said:

It wasn’t until my husband became an elder that reality very slowly began to seep into my brain.  Although I didn’t know the reasons for his many shepherding visits, or late night phone calls, I could see the strain on his face caused by whatever it was he was dealing with; and the spiritual, protective bubble that I had believed in, was growing weaker by the year. I began to comprehend how being in the organization was causing strain on him, his wife and his three little boys. My bubble of the haven of peace, love and spiritual security, eventually burst.  My husband has since told men he dealt with issues of marital and child abuse, although I never asked who was involved.

Your entire comment and thoughts inside it are excellent and giving real picture on that part of JW organization and members. 

I have singled out this section relating to the work of elders. The work of those elders who are concerned about the lives of the people, and their commitment to the spiritual and emotional relationships of the assembly members.
I can assume that all such individuals among the elders, who are in the minority, experience very serious, conflicting turmoil. For those elders who are very sensitive by nature, all that they may face can be too much. For such elders, who begin to perceive the paradox that arises between truth, justice, Jesus' teaching, on the one hand, and the corporate governance of that power, the power that human influences and positions (hierarchies) have of things, can end up very bad for themselves. Even in suicide.

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10 hours ago, Arauna said:

Study the laws that were in place and do not judge us by the current laws retroactively  but by the neglect of congress (regress) to not put proper laws in place. 

I agree. Do you know the United States cannot be sued unless it allows it to be sued? The USA has immunity no different from that of individual States.

If they didn’t have that immunity, imagine the millions of lawsuits against it for child abuse would be filed. It would mean the USA had failed its citizens for allowing hundreds of thousands of child abusers in their country.

I figure if a country is allowing civil lawsuits across the board for institutions, they should be included. Those advocating for child protection should then voice their advocacy to be fair. Meaning if institutions are at fault for allowing child abuse through no real fault of their own, then governments and their citizens should bear the same responsibility. This would include those advocates that have done nothing wrong but their government has.

If the argument is to have substance, then it should be fair and above board.

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10 hours ago, Arauna said:

Study the laws that were in place and do not judge us by the current laws retroactively

 

19 minutes ago, Bogdan11 said:

I agree

Let us go further. By what law JHVH would judge people who lived in different periods of time. Because, as I understand Bible and WT interpretations of some verses, God will judge all our deeds. No matter of when people lived and no matter when they done something and did they die or still living.

By what law He will do that? By the law that was in power when those people lived and done things, good and bad .......or will He using one Law (Present law in the moment of judging) and retroactively judged all our past deeds?

 Because Bible said how He will do that Retroactively.   God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” - Rom 2  

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2 hours ago, Bogdan11 said:

I agree. Do you know the United States cannot be sued unless it allows it to be sued? The USA has immunity no different from that of individual States.

If they didn’t have that immunity, imagine the millions of lawsuits against it for child abuse would be filed. It would mean the USA had failed its citizens for allowing hundreds of thousands of child abusers in their country.

I figure if a country is allowing civil lawsuits across the board for institutions, they should be included. Those advocating for child protection should then voice their advocacy to be fair. Meaning if institutions are at fault for allowing child abuse through no real fault of their own, then governments and their citizens should bear the same responsibility. This would include those advocates that have done nothing wrong but their government has.

If the argument is to have substance, then it should be fair and above board.

BUT the GB and JW Org are supposed to be 'No part of that world'  And are supposed to keep themselves 'Without spot from the world'  So why you and others are comparing the GB and it's Org to the world all the time, makes no sense.  

Add to that, that JW's WERE TOLD NOT TO REPORT TO THE POLICE OR OUTSIDE AUTHORITIES. The excuse used being that it would bring shame on Jehovah.   

Add to that THE TWO WITNESS RULE which encouraged Elders to call Victims liars. 

Add to that the Shunning which JW Victims were frightened of.  

Now you just might open your eyes and see why the GB / Elders / JW Org are SO guilty. 

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1 hour ago, 4Jah2me said:

BUT the GB and JW Org are supposed to be 'No part of that world'  And are supposed to keep themselves 'Without spot from the world'  So why you and others are comparing the GB and it's Org to the world all the time, makes no sense.  

I can appreciate your frankness and passion. At what point did you begin to see the GB as perfect? Were the apostles perfect? Please submit an instance where Jesus removed the original sin from the apostles.

Since the GB stay away from world influence, I don’t see where they think the same as the world.

Now, is there a difference between God's law and secular law that not only the GB would need to address and Elders as well? However, don't you think local elders would be more aware of current government laws?

Since I’m new to this forum and I as you have been monitoring this website for a long time, and to avoid my personal opinion not to be challenging to others, I will not argue, Watchtower policy or their bylaws since it appears this kind of debate can only be expressed by those that have a grievance. It appears for some, having to express an opinion by comments or a downvote can have consequences. I don’t believe I’m allowed to respond to such criticism unless I can get a green light from the website owner. I will wait to receive the rules of engagement and proper protocol with a point of order. Therefore, I yield that to you, sorry.

For now if you don’t mind, I will remain natural since I don’t wish these 2 post to be my last. What I agree with, even governments hide wrongdoings. Why isn’t society being more proactive in holding governments accountable just like the institutions?

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1 hour ago, Bogdan11 said:

I can appreciate your frankness and passion. At what point did you begin to see the GB as perfect? Were the apostles perfect? Please submit an instance where Jesus removed the original sin from the apostles.

Since the GB stay away from world influence, I don’t see where they think the same as the world.

Now, is there a difference between God's law and secular law that not only the GB would need to address and Elders as well? However, don't you think local elders would be more aware of current government laws?

Since I’m new to this forum and I as you have been monitoring this website for a long time, and to avoid my personal opinion not to be challenging to others, I will not argue, Watchtower policy or their bylaws since it appears this kind of debate can only be expressed by those that have a grievance. It appears for some, having to express an opinion by comments or a downvote can have consequences. I don’t believe I’m allowed to respond to such criticism unless I can get a green light from the website owner. I will wait to receive the rules of engagement and proper protocol with a point of order. Therefore, I yield that to you, sorry.

For now if you don’t mind, I will remain natural since I don’t wish these 2 post to be my last. What I agree with, even governments hide wrongdoings. Why isn’t society being more proactive in holding governments accountable just like the institutions?

You are copying Arauna. You are doubling backwards to compare the GB and it's Org to the world which belongs to the Devil. 

You should be comparing the GB and the Org to God's standards. 

Back in the times of Israel the surrounding nations were offering their children in the fire to Molech. (This has been mentioned by people on here before.) Then it seems the Israelites also started offering their children in the fire to Molech. How did God feel about that ? Did God say, 'Oh well the Israelites  are not burning as many children as the other nations so it doesn't matter ' No I think not. God judged His people on His standards. 

Quote from 

    • Hello guest!
  • Remain “Without Spot From the World”

“The form of worship that is clean and undefiled from the standpoint of our God and Father is this: to look after orphans and widows in their tribulation, and to keep oneself without spot from the world.”—

    Hello guest!
.

2 “The form of worship that is clean and undefiled from the standpoint of our God and Father is this,” wrote the disciple James, “to look after orphans and widows in their tribulation, and to keep oneself without spot from the world.” Another rendition is: “Pure, unspoilt religion, in the eyes of God our Father is this: coming to the help of orphans and widows when they need it, and keeping oneself uncontaminated by the world.”—

    Hello guest!
, The Jerusalem Bible.

I quote you "Since the GB stay away from world influence, I don’t see where they think the same as the world."

The GB deliberately tell lies, and they use dishonest lawyers in courts. They jump ahead of any spiritual guidance from God or Christ and make stupid statements such as the 'overlapping generations'. the two witness rule concerning child sexual abuse, a rule concerning accusing adults of different sexes of committing fornication if they happen to be in the same house overnight, funnily enough it doesn't apply to adults of the same sex, bit behind the times there..   Telling the anointed not to think about contacting each other around the earth (when we know the anointed are the Body of Christ)... And don't even think about mentioning some of the stupid videos they make... And now a court appearance it seems. Well they do seem to like being in front of the camera.  

As for you commenting and being blunt. Do it. As long as you are not abusive and not too insulting to people :) 

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These comments were auto merged :( 

Did i ever get a reply as to what will actually happen in these court cases ?  Are the GB members liable to get fined ?

Is there a possibility of a prison sentence for each one ? 

 Looking back when the GB were playing games between the CCJW and WT Soc, basically sending letters to them selves, and the courts were not too happy about the wasted time etc. Fines imposed but then scrapped. So i would think the GB are not in favour with any of the courts. But things drag out so long so probs no result until next summer. 

 

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28 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

As for you commenting and being blunt. Do it. As long as you are not abusive and not too insulting to people :) 

I am ashamed to admit that you have many irrefutable points in you above post.  I cannot refute any of them,

EXCEPT your quote, posted here on this post..

FACTS about such things are NATURALLY abusive and insulting to the agenda driven.

But, willy-nilly ... they are still facts.

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2 hours ago, Bogdan11 said:

I don’t believe I’m allowed to respond to such criticism unless I can get a green light from the website owner. I will wait to receive the rules of engagement and proper protocol with a point of order.

You are allowed to respond to criticism any way you want as long as you are civil and not rude.

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I have found in over 7000 posts that I can be rude, and belligerent, and insulting ... if the level of stupidity rises to the point where a "reasonable person" would conclude that it is a defense to previous insults and/or accusations, not based in fact.

And that insulting ideas and philosophies with provable facts is quite OK, here.

Ad Hominem attacks are never acceptable without a solid basis to do so.

...... and never invoke "Godwin's Law", unless you fully understand what it says and does not say.

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2 hours ago, Bogdan11 said:

I don’t believe I’m allowed to respond to such criticism unless I can get a green light from the website owner. 

You may proceed.

2 hours ago, Bogdan11 said:

I will wait to receive the rules of engagement and proper protocol with a point of order. 

The requirements are not high. You must simply make sure that you are not the most unpleasant person here. The mere fact that you raised the above two points guarantees that you will not be.

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On 11/16/2019 at 9:11 AM, Arauna said:

As I said before: eight old men who never personally touched a child (actually too innocent  to comprehend how wicked people can be - too good for this world)

It's quite possible you are right about the current eight old men who may have never personally touched a child (in an abusive way). It's my impression that they are also quite innocent of any such issues.

But I don't think you can ever say that anyone in such a position as in the GB cannot comprehend such wickedness in others. They have dealt with a lot in their lives and they have been forced to deal with the topic even if they didn't want to.

And not to deal in gossip, but I can speak almost positively about the following situation, at least I can speak for the trustworthiness of the brothers who gave me the information. What I heard about several years ago from a friend in Writing, were things I talked about before the ARC, and they came up again from another brother after I discussed the ongoing ARC with him.

It actually started with two members of the Governing Body, who seemed not to want to speak to each other. Both became GB members in 1974 and this issue was visible during the time I worked around them. One had previously been assigned to a leading position for the Branch in Australia and the other had previously been assigned to work in Japan. The brother assigned to Australia was recalled suddenly and demoted to become a Circuit Overseer in the Midwest in the United States. After many years of rebuilding his reputation, through Circuit then District work, he finally was asked to join the Governing Body in New York. The explanation I was given was that the demotion was punishment for being involved in accusations of child sexual abuse. (I never knew if the accusations had been in Australia, the USA, or both, but a later separate rumor had tied him to a case in the United States through a Witness doctor.) At any rate, by 1974, this issue was considered to have been from long enough in his past for his appointment to the GB.

By 1991 one of the GB members was heading the Writing Dept, and the once-accused GB member was heading the Service Dept. You probably already know that the October 8 1991 Awake! had an article on Child Sexual Abuse that included "worldly" therapy as a possible solution for some victims, and this head of the Service Dept hated the article. (For that matter it's probably true that most members of the Governing Body apparently thought that worldly psychotherapy was little more than something worldly or even satanic.) But by now, there were Witness psychotherapists and psychiatrists, and they appreciated the article. Mostly the article was appreciated by CSA victims, and tons of letters of appreciation came in. For an April 1992 follow up, the head of Writing decided to print some excerpts from some of those letters of appreciation and the head of Service actually "stopped the presses" to have the article replaced while the head of Writing was out of the country. The head of Service didn't get his way; presses started up again, and you can read the article in the April 8 1992 Awake!.

But, as head of the Service Department, he sent out several of the most well known Circuit and District Overseers on a campaign in 1992 to speak with abuse victims to let them know they should never reveal anything about their abusers and their abuse, or they could be disfellowshipped.

One of those men in the intimidation campaign is now on the Governing Body.

You can take these are merely unsubstantiated rumors, and I admit that I have no evidence to substantiate them. I can only speak to the honesty and track record of the brothers who told me about them.

 

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1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

The requirements are not high. You must simply make sure that you are not the most unpleasant person here. The mere fact that you raised the above two points guarantees that you will not be.

Thank you for your input. I’m still at a loss. Anna mentioned not to be rude, does this apply to me only? If someone is rude and insulting to me, are you saying not to reply?

Mr. Rook has commented with humor how he has dealt with people here. This is the clarification I need before I engage. I’m sorry for being too cautious, I hope you can see the dilemma I’m raising.

2 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

You are copying Arauna. You are doubling backwards to compare the GB and it's Org to the world which belongs to the Devil. 

You should be comparing the GB and the Org to God's standards.

I can see your point of view. My point is entertaining the idea that the GB are earthbound. I cannot see where they could escape from being an earthly organization. I can understand Jesus’ Ascension, but that was without the apostles that were also earthbound. The apostles didn’t have personal insight of all the sinners in the congregations being formed. It goes without a doubt a certain amount of faith needed to be applied just as it’s needed in today’s society. Faith in God of course but also faith in your fellow men that carry the same interest as those worshipping God. Can anyone abstain from sin? You would have to have faith in others that their heart is as devoted as yours. Not to fall into temptation from this world. If someone does, that person should be allowed to show genuine repentance, if not, they should not be part of an organization that commands loyalty and obedience to God, by God's own inspired word. 

Then it is not what the organization demands, it's God that demands it.

However, I will not anger you or give you an exclamatory downvote since it appears to be forbidden for someone like me. I yield that to you, thanks.

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1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

And not to deal in gossip, but I can speak almost positively about the following situation, at least I can speak for the trustworthiness of the brothers who gave me the information. What I heard about several years ago from a friend in Writing, were things I talked about before the ARC, and they came up again from another brother after I discussed the ongoing ARC with him.

It actually started with two members of the Governing Body, who seemed not to want to speak to each other. Both became GB members in 1974 and this issue was visible during the time I worked around them. One had previously been assigned to lead the Branch in Australia and the other had previously been assigned to work in Japan. The brother assigned to Australia was recalled suddenly and demoted to become a Circuit Overseer in the Midwest in the United States.

I would ask what if someone from that time period, remembers the allegation you are sighting differently. Something like not child sexual abuse, but assault on a minor.

The reason the ARC has become ineffective is that they attempted to shield government run detention centers from being prosecuted for child sexual abuse. The ARC refused to even pick up the allegation until the media forced them to.

How can such accusations be verified. By word of mouth or by evidence that can be substantiated? Meanwhile, wouldn't it amount to gossip?

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9 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

By what law JHVH would judge people who lived in different periods of time.

Jehovah judges perfectly because he understands perfectly.  BUT you are twisting the facts:

It is PEOPLE here on the forum who have appointed themselves as judges and definitely are not perfect judges. They judge the past according to the modern day secular laws that are now in place and according to current society habits.

I grew up in the 1950s when these things were a taboo to talk about in society.  AFTER  the 1960s, with the sexual revolution, they started to talk about  this subject in the secular press. When I worked for newspapers as a reporter in 1980s many of the first laws were in place in first world countries and court procedures were slowly refined until 2003.

The inquiry that was done in Australia into more than 2000 organizations was done to close further legal gaps in the system.......... BUT these laws are not always enforced in many countries where there are laws.  In UK rape gangs have been operating for years with a blind eye by law enforcement.  Child services, both in USA and UK were exposed to be part of child sex rings and reporters and policemen who try to investigate it, are found dead.

This is why I often mention the abuses of high society (the rich and powerful) and other levels of society who are known to marry 9 year old girls against their will - these people get different treatment than others.  .... and JWs are judged harshly because they were not vigilant enough and tried to stop it from 1950s by keeping records.  JWs are now retroactively tried in court with sensationalist press, when boy scouts etc just closed down and no court accountability given..... so it creates a false impression that JWs  condone this. 

Other "guilty" members of society (some are teenage boys tried as adults) get many years in prison are branded for life and forced to live in villages away from society for the rest of their lives. But exposed child trafficking rings etc rape rings - nothing done.  This is not Jehovahs justice...... and in the end ..... it will be Jehovah and Jesus who will judge every wicked thing done in secret whether the individual pretended to serve him or not. 

In the meantime, millions of children's lives are messed up...... and jehovah will judge those with mercy and love. 

If anyone here on this forum thinks for a moment that children are currently protected  - they are very naive to this morally rotten world.  Child services in many cases are now private companies and are in it for money.  Sex trafficking of children is more lucrative than drug trafficking...... and much more prevalent than we can even imagine.

I disagree with the assumption that we can understand the mind of these children rapists...... they are so Satanistic.... we cannot imagine the lengths these people will go to and how far beyond a conscience they are..... and they are amongst us ..... and sometimes they pretend to be our moral leaders in society. They are judges, political leaders, military, FBI, MI5, etc etc....where they have more power and resources to cover up their activities  ....and the making of money.

Internet porn has exploited children and made them more vulnerable...... The new UN curriculum (forced upon all schools in the West) now sexualizes children at a tender age and is preparing the way for LGBTQ.....P.   

We are living in last days where any form of morality is becoming something of the past...... Sexual exploitation of children once was a spoken taboo - soon to be openly practiced by anyone who wishes to do so. 

Chidren are being married off legally in many countries as we speak.  In Germany a judge threw out a case where a 10 year old was married off.  This now has set a precedent: police will no longer arrest perpetrators who exploit 10 year olds because this is now regarded as marriageable age. Muslim laws are eroding the old western laws.

We are going back to the time before jehovah gave laws to the Israelites.  Like the Canaanites we will see openly child exploitation and even child murder is returning.  In Africa- the practice of using child body parts in witchcraft medicine is back in full scale.  Recently I saw a mother crying.  She found her shepard boy still half alive with half his brain removed, his sexual organs etc removed.  If this shocks you..... I hope it did.  This is the reality of the world we are living in now. Satan is rampant and people with no morals are doing what they like.  There is a semblance of law and order but underneath it all morality is falling apart.

People here on this forum try to make JWs into monsters.... when the real monsters who are exploiting children are using the worldly system to do this.  The worldly legal system is becoming less and less accountable and favoring the rich and powerful (and certain favoured minorities) to do as they please. 

People here do not understand why I talk about the worldly legal system and its double standards..... Well look at the headline above...... JW opposers are gloating because we are being used as a target by this very worldly system which protects other groups. 

Yes - we will be judged by the world and Jehovah. The one, often serves injustice - the other is just and really exists..... which one's verdicts will stand forever? 

 

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41 minutes ago, Arauna said:

I grew up in the 1950s when these things were a taboo to talk about in society.  AFTER  the 1960s, with the sexual revolution, they started to talk about  this subject in the secular press. When I worked for newspapers as a reporter in 1980s many of the first laws were in place in first world countries and court procedures were slowly refined until 2003.

I for one do, understand how society is looking at past allegations with today's laws. Not that society is better off with the laws made to protect, it just gives people a false sense of hope.

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2 minutes ago, Tom Henry said:

Not that society is better off with the laws made to protect, it just gives people a false sense of hope.

There is this question too: can a child rapists be rehabilitated?   Experts in the past put children back in the home with the perpetrator if he was the father.  The latest:  there are experts who say this  cannot be changed.  

We know that Jehovah says: "this is what some of you were...". so our oganization must allow them to attend meetings and still protect children.  A tall order. The difference is mercy or condemnation.  I put myself in place of GB and ask:  Must we make tons of rules..... ?  Or educate parents to do a better job at protecting their own children. 

We cannot read hearts or intentions of brothers..... most are not child molesters but there may just be one rotten apple amongst a bunch of faithful brothers....... like Judas iscariot among the associates of Jesus.

On 11/17/2019 at 3:08 AM, JJJ-AUSTRALIA said:

How do U know as a fact they have never touched anyone inappropriately, not saying they have but to make such statement that

How can one just make the assumption option that they have without a court conviction?

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9 minutes ago, Arauna said:

How can one just make the assumption option that they have without a court conviction?

You were the one making the statement without any evidence I did not make any statement that they were clean or not, what matters is that the GB refused to give evidence clean or not. Or should we recap what Garry lush mentioned on his statement or what Geffry Jackson said in case 29 thanks to them I see where the GB stands. I'm sure U will come up with some incredible amusing excuse but what it was said has lots of repurcussions to the point that my wife and I can not believe another word that comes from them.

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10 hours ago, Bogdan11 said:

Why isn’t society being more proactive

I think @Arauna explained this part of subject how one part of society that including JW members are not willing to be proactive. And that also contribute to general situation.

I agree with many what Arauna described in her comment. And i am also "broken" with so much suffer and bad things that some people and especially children going through. 

It is not about "twisting facts". If people are not satisfied with people who taking a lead, who rule, governing over them and their life, because they have double standards and twisting justice in "worldly system", they have chance to replace them by voting. And so on until they find the best people world can offer. JW not want to be "proactive" in this matter. That is their right to have such stand. But than, why to criticize system. System, "worldly", is mirror of people in general.

JW system is also mirror of people that living and working and contributing to it as such. In general, JW people making effort to be good, but WT Society also have internal "system" that is corruptible and contribute to JW world, as also to worldly world, to be bad place for some individuals (victims).   

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If people are not satisfied with people who taking a lead, who rule, governing over them and their life, because they have double standards and twisting justice in "worldly system", they have chance to replace them by voting. And so on until they find the best people world can offer.

Of course! Voting is the answer! How’s that working out these days?

The Atlantic has run a (disapproving) article on populists—the winners of popular elections

Right now, the four most populous democracies in the world are ruled by populists: Narendra Modi in India, Donald Trump in the United States, Joko Widodo in Indonesia, and Bolsonaro in Brazil.”

I could be wrong, but I suspect you will not be happy with such voting outcomes. 

According to our research, populist governments have deepened corruption, eroded individual rights, and inflicted serious damage on democratic institutions,” read the Atlantic banner, as they tallied up 46 of such populist winners.

Your criticism is no more than your humanism speaking. You pull out all stops to slam JWs. It is not as though you have anything better to offer. What you have is considerably worse.

    Hello guest!

 

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What this means is that the policies/by-laws, etc. of past administrations/owners, etc. can be held liable for allowing harm to happen to it's employee's. It reminds me of the lawsuits that arrived from asbestos poisoning and tobacco manufacture's.

    Hello guest!

    Hello guest!

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10 hours ago, Arauna said:

We know that Jehovah says: "this is what some of you were...". so our oganization must allow them to attend meetings and still protect children.

This is important, too. One of the lists kept by the Society, that was discussed in a recent court case, actually concerned a list of pedophiles who had been converted through the prison ministries, persons who had been convicted of their crimes before becoming Witnesses.

There has been some "social media" confusion, perhaps deliberate, among the list of Australian cases and victims, a central list of congregational "judicial" disciplinary actions against congregation members (including elders) being kept at the United States headquarters, and lists of persons in situations such as the formerly convicted "known" pedophiles. It should also be repeated that some family members who have been victims of incest have been very adamant about not allowing such lists to be exposed anywhere for fear it will result in prejudice against the victims in society or even in the congregations. Historically, this has been a big reason for covering up the crime of incestual rape, in many societies, but unfortunately it is sometimes spouses and other relatives who push for covering it up and thereby override the need to protect the child.

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11 hours ago, Arauna said:

We cannot read hearts or intentions of brothers..... most are not child molesters but there may just be one rotten apple amongst a bunch of faithful brothers....... like Judas iscariot among the associates of Jesus.

I agree. Even our estranged cousins the Bible Students have made a similar and compelling argument with that of the Org.

The Herald of Christ's Kingdom

January/February 1997

Statistics are constantly quoted in the news leading to concerns that the hectic day outside the home does not stop when the family comes together inside. It is a greater challenge to keep families together. It is harder to keep the outside influences of the world from invading the thinking and relationships within the home; the results can be tragic and heartbreaking. Domestic violence increases. Divorce rates increase. Child abuse increases. Suicides increase.

 

While the Christians are in the world and affected by the same pressures and environments, they must constantly battle to avoid being of the world. The world’s solutions are not acceptable nor are they to be copied. The Christian knows that success in fighting stress is directly related to the transforming of the mind into that of Christ.

A point to be considered. Back then, in the most part “child abuse” meant “physical maltreatment” not sexual molestation. Therefore, to use the term child abuse in the earlier context to mean the latter should not be taken out of context.

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4 minutes ago, Tom Henry said:

A point to be considered. Back then, in the most part “child abuse” meant “physical maltreatment” not sexual molestation. Therefore, to use the term child abuse in the earlier context to mean the latter should not be taken out of context.

This is a good point. I agree with it. When people keep talking about child sexual abuse and it becomes the big topic in the news, then it is easy to kind of impose child sexual abuse as the intended meaning even when we hear the term child abuse, which does not necessarily imply sexual abuse. 

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To be practical; all those who are concerned about allegations of CSA cover up in HQ, and these allegations come to light, and it is proved some were made deliberately and harmed children, then no doubt justice will be carried out, if not by human hand, then by God's hand. And the organization WILL be cleaned where necessary. In fact, this cleaning is happening all the time, (whether it be regarding doctrine or organisational procedure) because of the imperfection of man, it is something that is necessary and inevitable. It was going on in Bible times and it hasn't stopped. Some of it is immediately visible, some not so much. Some of it happens quickly, some takes more time, but in the end it happens one way or another and will continue to happen. And this is what we all want, isn't it? Some of us may even contribute to some changes personally, and we know worldly institutions have already effected changes for example in the handling of CSA. 
So what is the purpose of some on here who criticize? Surely they are not expecting, or wishing for the organization to cease to exist? That would be unrealistic of course. But if the criticism is constructive, and hopes for a better way of doing things, then that is a good thing. However, if the criticism is merely to tear down, or vent ones anger and dissapointment, then these people forget that the organization is based on faith in God, and that its members will always rely on God for the ultimate solution. So there is no point in unconstructive criticism (when is there ever?) only to vent. And that's also fine if they feel this is a good place for it.

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15 hours ago, JW Insider said:

It's quite possible you are right about the current eight old men who may have never personally touched a child (in an abusive way). It's my impression that they are also quite innocent of any such issues.

But I don't think you can ever say that anyone in such a position as in the GB cannot comprehend such wickedness in others. They have dealt with a lot in their lives and they have been forced to deal with the topic even if they didn't want to.

And not to deal in gossip, but I can speak almost positively about the following situation, at least I can speak for the trustworthiness of the brothers who gave me the information. What I heard about several years ago from a friend in Writing, were things I talked about before the ARC, and they came up again from another brother after I discussed the ongoing ARC with him.

It actually started with two members of the Governing Body, who seemed not to want to speak to each other. Both became GB members in 1974 and this issue was visible during the time I worked around them. One had previously been assigned to lead the Branch in Australia and the other had previously been assigned to work in Japan. The brother assigned to Australia was recalled suddenly and demoted to become a Circuit Overseer in the Midwest in the United States. After many years of rebuilding his reputation, through Circuit then District work, he finally was asked to join the Governing Body in New York. The explanation I was given was that the demotion was punishment for being involved in accusations of child sexual abuse. (I never knew if the accusations had been in Australia, the USA, or both, but a later separate rumor had tied him to a case in the United States through a Witness doctor.) At any rate, by 1974, this issue was considered to have been from long enough in his past for his appointment to the GB.

By 1991 one of the GB members was heading the Writing Dept, and the once-accused GB member was heading the Service Dept. You probably already know that the October 8 1991 Awake! had an article on Child Sexual Abuse that included "worldly" therapy as a possible solution for some victims, and this head of the Service Dept hated the article. (For that matter it's probably true that most members of the Governing Body apparently thought that worldly psychotherapy was little more than something worldly or even satanic.) But by now, there were Witness psychotherapists and psychiatrists, and they appreciated the article. Mostly the article was appreciated by CSA victims, and tons of letters of appreciation came in. For an April 1992 follow up, the head of Writing decided to print some excerpts from some of those letters of appreciation and the head of Service actually "stopped the presses" to have the article replaced while the head of Writing was out of the country. The head of Service didn't get his way; presses started up again, and you can read the article in the April 8 1992 Awake!.

But, as head of the Service Department, he sent out several of the most well known Circuit and District Overseers on a campaign in 1992 to speak with abuse victims to let them know they should never reveal anything about their abusers and their abuse, or they could be disfellowshipped.

One of those men in the intimidation campaign is now on the Governing Body.

You can take these are merely unsubstantiated rumors, and I admit that I have no evidence to substantiate them. I can only speak to the honesty and track record of the brothers who told me about them.

 

There is so much in that comment that, if it's all true (and I do believe it) , tells me the GB are not the F&DS AND tells me they areote not even of the Anointed. 

And again this threat of being disfellowshippped, which many JW's deny.

Quote  "It's quite possible you are right about the current eight old men who may have never personally touched a child (in an abusive way). It's my impression that they are also quite innocent of any such issues. "

So do pedophiles go around wearing a badge so that you can recognise them ?  One of the main problems IS that they are not recognisable from 'nice' people. They keep it so well hidden obviously or they would be noticed immediately. 

Quote "But I don't think you can ever say that anyone in such a position as in the GB cannot comprehend such wickedness in others. They have dealt with a lot in their lives and they have been forced to deal with the topic even if they didn't want to "

The child sexual abuse accusations in Australia has been going on for well over 50 years. That much was proved in the  ARC. So anyone of the GB within that time should have been well aware of the CSA in the Org. Do we yet know how long CSA has been going on in USA ? 

GB members that don't want to talk to each other. And now, GB members that don't want the Anointed around the earth to speak to each other.  Please tell me where is 'the love for one another' and the 'everyone working together to serve God properly', that the JW Org pretends to have ?

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Anna said:

But if the criticism is constructive, and hopes for a better way of doing things, then that is a good thing. However, if the criticism is merely to tear down, or vent ones anger and dissapointment, then these people forget that the organization is based on faith in God, and that its members will always rely on God for the ultimate solution.

The motive should not matter, if the charges are truthful. The difference in motive will sometimes show up in the level of carefulness and honesty. So badly motivated persons will often make claims that are not going to be useful as "constructive." They may even backfire in a court of law and discredit the usefulness and value of claims that could have otherwise been constructive.

We often use a scripture that we apply to the congregation, when it actually appears to have more of an application to "secular" authorities:

(Leviticus 5:1) . . .“‘If someone sins because he has heard a public call to testify and he is a witness or has seen or learned about it and he does not report it, then he will answer for his error."

So, there is precedent for bringing to light those activities that "love" the darkness.

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9 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

The motive should not matter, if the charges are truthful. The difference in motive will sometimes show up in the level of carefulness and honesty. So badly motivated persons will often make claims that are not going to be useful as "constructive." They may even backfire in a court of law and discredit the usefulness and value of claims that could have otherwise been constructive.

We often use a scripture that we apply to the congregation, when it actually appears to have more of an application to "secular" authorities:

(Leviticus 5:1) . . .“‘If someone sins because he has heard a public call to testify and he is a witness or has seen or learned about it and he does not report it, then he will answer for his error."

So, there is precedent for bringing to light those activities that "love" the darkness.

This is what I meant 😀 and not only with regard to CSA but anything that we feel is not right.

I need to edit this: not just anything we feel is not right, but that is actually not right scripturally.

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7 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

And again this threat of being disfellowshippped, which many JW's deny.

I think that such cases will be very rare based on the new processes. As much as I am concerned about how closely elders seem to accept WTS processes as "law" it's good when these rules have been corrected and we can expect them to be followed to the letter.

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13 hours ago, Arauna said:

Jehovah judges perfectly because he understands perfectly.  BUT you are twisting the facts:

It is PEOPLE here on the forum who have appointed themselves as judges and definitely are not perfect judges. They judge the past according to the modern day secular laws that are now in place and according to current society habits.

I grew up in the 1950s when these things were a taboo to talk about in society.  AFTER  the 1960s, with the sexual revolution, they started to talk about  this subject in the secular press. When I worked for newspapers as a reporter in 1980s many of the first laws were in place in first world countries and court procedures were slowly refined until 2003.

The inquiry that was done in Australia into more than 2000 organizations was done to close further legal gaps in the system.......... BUT these laws are not always enforced in many countries where there are laws.  In UK rape gangs have been operating for years with a blind eye by law enforcement.  Child services, both in USA and UK were exposed to be part of child sex rings and reporters and policemen who try to investigate it, are found dead.

This is why I often mention the abuses of high society (the rich and powerful) and other levels of society who are known to marry 9 year old girls against their will - these people get different treatment than others.  .... and JWs are judged harshly because they were not vigilant enough and tried to stop it from 1950s by keeping records.  JWs are now retroactively tried in court with sensationalist press, when boy scouts etc just closed down and no court accountability given..... so it creates a false impression that JWs  condone this. 

Other "guilty" members of society (some are teenage boys tried as adults) get many years in prison are branded for life and forced to live in villages away from society for the rest of their lives. But exposed child trafficking rings etc rape rings - nothing done.  This is not Jehovahs justice...... and in the end ..... it will be Jehovah and Jesus who will judge every wicked thing done in secret whether the individual pretended to serve him or not. 

In the meantime, millions of children's lives are messed up...... and jehovah will judge those with mercy and love. 

If anyone here on this forum thinks for a moment that children are currently protected  - they are very naive to this morally rotten world.  Child services in many cases are now private companies and are in it for money.  Sex trafficking of children is more lucrative than drug trafficking...... and much more prevalent than we can even imagine.

I disagree with the assumption that we can understand the mind of these children rapists...... they are so Satanistic.... we cannot imagine the lengths these people will go to and how far beyond a conscience they are..... and they are amongst us ..... and sometimes they pretend to be our moral leaders in society. They are judges, political leaders, military, FBI, MI5, etc etc....where they have more power and resources to cover up their activities  ....and the making of money.

Internet porn has exploited children and made them more vulnerable...... The new UN curriculum (forced upon all schools in the West) now sexualizes children at a tender age and is preparing the way for LGBTQ.....P.   

We are living in last days where any form of morality is becoming something of the past...... Sexual exploitation of children once was a spoken taboo - soon to be openly practiced by anyone who wishes to do so. 

Chidren are being married off legally in many countries as we speak.  In Germany a judge threw out a case where a 10 year old was married off.  This now has set a precedent: police will no longer arrest perpetrators who exploit 10 year olds because this is now regarded as marriageable age. Muslim laws are eroding the old western laws.

We are going back to the time before jehovah gave laws to the Israelites.  Like the Canaanites we will see openly child exploitation and even child murder is returning.  In Africa- the practice of using child body parts in witchcraft medicine is back in full scale.  Recently I saw a mother crying.  She found her shepard boy still half alive with half his brain removed, his sexual organs etc removed.  If this shocks you..... I hope it did.  This is the reality of the world we are living in now. Satan is rampant and people with no morals are doing what they like.  There is a semblance of law and order but underneath it all morality is falling apart.

People here on this forum try to make JWs into monsters.... when the real monsters who are exploiting children are using the worldly system to do this.  The worldly legal system is becoming less and less accountable and favoring the rich and powerful (and certain favoured minorities) to do as they please. 

People here do not understand why I talk about the worldly legal system and its double standards..... Well look at the headline above...... JW opposers are gloating because we are being used as a target by this very worldly system which protects other groups. 

Yes - we will be judged by the world and Jehovah. The one, often serves injustice - the other is just and really exists..... which one's verdicts will stand forever? 

 

Quote @Arauna I disagree with the assumption that we can understand the mind of these children rapists  ..... they are so Satanistic.... we cannot imagine the lengths these people will go to and how far beyond a conscience they are..... and they are amongst us ..... and sometimes they pretend to be our moral leaders in society. 

Yes, and they are in the JW Org............... and YOU say 'we cannot understand the mind of these child rapists'.... So how can the Elders hide them in the JW Org, and how can the Elders say that these rapists are repentant ?     Remember YOU said we cannot understand the mind of these children rapists. They are so Satanistic... 

So get real, wake up, and stop looking for excuses in the outside Devil's world.

Remember scripture, Don't tell your brother he has a straw in his eye, when you have a rafter in yours. = JW Org,  Don't say how wicked the outside world is when the inside of JW Org is just as wicked. 

 

4 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

If people are not satisfied with people who taking a lead, who rule, governing over them and their life, because they have double standards and twisting justice in "worldly system", they have chance to replace them by voting. And so on until they find the best people world can offer.

Of course! Voting is the answer! How’s that working out these days?

The Atlantic has run a (disapproving) article on populists—the winners of popular elections

Right now, the four most populous democracies in the world are ruled by populists: Narendra Modi in India, Donald Trump in the United States, Joko Widodo in Indonesia, and Bolsonaro in Brazil.”

I could be wrong, but I suspect you will not be happy with such voting outcomes. 

According to our research, populist governments have deepened corruption, eroded individual rights, and inflicted serious damage on democratic institutions,” read the Atlantic banner, as they tallied up 46 of such populist winners.

Your criticism is no more than your humanism speaking. You pull out all stops to slam JWs. It is not as though you have anything better to offer. What you have is considerably worse.

    Hello guest!

 

Someone must vote in your GB members, and it sure enough cannot be God or Jesus Christ because they would make better choices..... Someone must vote in the Elders, and I don't think it has anything to do with holy spirit because we can see how wicked many elders have been and still are.... So your Org must have some sort of voting system, which of course they pretend involves Christ. 

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13 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

GB members that don't want to talk to each other. And now, GB members that don't want the Anointed around the earth to speak to each other.  Please tell me where is 'the love for one another' and the 'everyone working together to serve God properly', that the JW Org pretends to have ?

I was talking about a situation from 40 to 50 years ago, and it might have been a good thing, in that it revealed the tension that is seen before a necessary transition. There had been a time up until the years before 1975, when the strongest voices in the Writing Department and from the Vice President were considered to "gospel" for the Service Department. The Service Department was in charge of pushing higher and higher activity goals and was given a lot of credit when goals and quotas were met. But the Service Department also handled correspondence for serious lifestyle questions that came in, and ultimately handled disfellowshipping rules and practices. This tended to "bleed" back into the Writing Department so that "suggestions" and "principles" were being turned into Watchtower dogma. (For example, question about marital practices in the bedroom, or organ transplants based on the musings of Fred Franz turned into matters of disfellowshipping, when they probably should have been left up to the couple or individual. But after enough disfellowshippings over such things, the rules had to be set in stone.)

The head of Service wasn't ready to stop being a hard-liner when the Writing department had begun to realize that they had no reason to be hard-liners on every topic. So the tensions were necessary to get clarification, and hopefully the Writing department would win out on certain flexible points at a time when the Service department wanted to be unbending.

There was a time when elders all around the country sometimes said "The Society is actually Harley Miller" because it was Harley Miller who was in charge of the way questions were answered when the elders needed clarification. The brother I mentioned before took over for Harley Miller. (Sorry about that, I am trying to no longer use names but I've already mentioned FWF and HM.)

It seems to me now that the WT is much less likely to promote harsh handling on several of these points they once fought over. The Service/Correspondence departments are now evidently completely in line. And one of the reasons I think of the current GB as less likely to have "pedophiles" in their midst is that there are fewer, they appear to get along better, and I think they realize they must be much more careful about past mistakes and past reputation. When questionable persons were asked to join the GB during the 1970's, there was a rule that past mistakes of elders could be ignored if they were long enough in the past and they were not currently causing a reputation problem in the congregation. The point was that there was no need for any type of public reproval that the congregation needs to know about if it were far enough in their background. This is no longer true of any connection with child sexual abuse. No exceptions are to be made CSA, even if they were in the past.

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2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

This is important, too. One of the lists kept by the Society, that was discussed in a recent court case, actually concerned a list of pedophiles who had been converted through the prison ministries, persons who had been convicted of their crimes before becoming Witnesses.

There has been some "social media" confusion, perhaps deliberate, among the list of Australian cases and victims, a central list of congregational "judicial" disciplinary actions against congregation members (including elders) being kept at the United States headquarters, and lists of persons in situations such as the formerly convicted "known" pedophiles. It should also be repeated that some family members who have been victims of incest have been very adamant about not allowing such lists to be exposed anywhere for fear it will result in prejudice against the victims in society or even in the congregations. Historically, this has been a big reason for covering up the crime of incestual rape, in many societies, but unfortunately it is sometimes spouses and other relatives who push for covering it up and thereby override the need to protect the child.

I think this brings us back to 'serving God as ruler rather than men'.  I would also think it should be possible to make known the name of a pedophile without naming the victims. And I think it is just an excuse for the GB / JW Org. 

To 'look after 'widows and orphans', to look after all children, the names and locations of all pedophiles should be made known, not only internally but to the world. Arauna says, we cannot know the minds of such ones. That they are Satanic. 

I say, that all pedophiles should carry their burden continuously in this old system of things. Of course they should be allowed into Kingdom Halls, and allowed to study God's word,  but only on the understanding that they are known to all. Unless of course you want the GB and JW Org in deeper trouble. 

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10 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

It is not about "twisting facts". If people are not satisfied with people who taking a lead, who rule, governing over them and their life, because they have double standards and twisting justice in "worldly system", they have chance to replace them by voting. And so on until they find the best people world can offer. JW not want to be "proactive" in this matter. That is their right to have such stand. But than, why to criticize system. System, "worldly", is mirror of people in general.

I appreciate your consorted effort and passion. I cannot agree that the Org has not been proactive in making every attempt to address a human problem inflicted by evil forces inclined to divide Christians.

I also agree with the firsthand accounts and insight that Arauna has placed before us to reflect on. It is refreshing to see such an astute person with great knowledge to lead with facts. It is better to have gone through personal experience to give accounts a better understanding than secondhand accounts that might be questioned.

I can direct you to all the articles relating to child abuse since 1956 to 2019. These submitted articles are but an illustration of how the ORG has addressed child abuse from many standpoints of view.

*** w56 9/15 p. 563 pars. 11-12 Theocratic Marriage in an Alien World ***

What is wrong about a bride price or lobola is the abuse that is made of it. It is wrong, unchristian, untheocratic, to treat it, not as a compensation, but as a means of making money off one’s own child or children, and then charge excessively or extort more than what is right or require what works a hardship.

12 God hates all extortioners, including bride-price extortioners, who commercialize their own daughters. Any such greedy person that claims to be a Christian puts himself in the way of excommunication or disfellowshiping from the Christian congregation any and every time that he commits extortion in the case of lobola or bride price

 *** g73 9/8 pp. 29-30 Watching the World ***

Tomorrow’s Parents

♦ Few are aware of the 500-percent increase in known cases of child abuse in the past decade, says a report to the American Medical Association. Called a “national disgrace,” abuse is America’s leading killer of children under five. The report estimates 50,000 deaths and 300,000 permanent physical or emotional injuries this year. Far-reaching effects were noted: “It is a disease of violence that breeds more violence, for the abused children of today, if they survive, will grow up to be the abusing parents of tomorrow.” This destructive spiral produces more anger, hate and criminality until “some day very few of us will be able to go out on the streets.”

 *** tp chap. 14 p. 155 Respect for the Gift of Life *** 1986

Respect for Your Own Life

Violent behavior attributed to alcohol use accounts for approximately 65% of murders, 40% of assaults, 35% of rapes, 30% of other sex crimes, 30% of suicides, 55% of fights or assaults in the home and 60% of cases of child abuse.

*** w19 May p. 7 par. 25 Love and Justice in the Christian Congregation ***

25 How thankful we are to be under the law of the Christ! When all of us work hard to obey it, we help to make our congregation a place where each individual can feel loved, valued, and safe. Still, we are living in a world where “wicked men” have advanced “from bad to worse.” (2 Tim. 3:13) We must not let down our guard. How can the Christian congregation reflect God’s justice when dealing with child sexual abuse?

 The question that Arauna raises is a valid one. How can any organization read the minds of their followers or employees? Any further suggestions, I will leave that to your conscience and heart.

    Hello guest!

 

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1 hour ago, Anna said:

To be practical; all those who are concerned about allegations of CSA cover up in HQ, and these allegations come to light, and it is proved some were made deliberately and harmed children, then no doubt justice will be carried out, if not by human hand, then by God's hand. And the organization WILL be cleaned where necessary. In fact, this cleaning is happening all the time, (whether it be regarding doctrine or organisational procedure) because of the imperfection of man, it is something that is necessary and inevitable. It was going on in Bible times and it hasn't stopped. Some of it is immediately visible, some not so much. Some of it happens quickly, some takes more time, but in the end it happens one way or another and will continue to happen. And this is what we all want, isn't it? Some of us may even contribute to some changes personally, and we know worldly institutions have already effected changes for example in the handling of CSA. 
So what is the purpose of some on here who criticize? Surely they are not expecting, or wishing for the organization to cease to exist? That would be unrealistic of course. But if the criticism is constructive, and hopes for a better way of doing things, then that is a good thing. However, if the criticism is merely to tear down, or vent ones anger and dissapointment, then these people forget that the organization is based on faith in God, and that its members will always rely on God for the ultimate solution. So there is no point in unconstructive criticism (when is there ever?) only to vent. And that's also fine if they feel this is a good place for it.

Why ? Well I think scripture tells us to examine all things. And if we are 'spiritual' people  we will examine the spiritual and the physical.  CSA is just one item to look at. Shunning is another. Blood is another. Doctrine another. 

I am wishing for an Organisation through which I can serve God properly.  I am neither for or against JW Org.  Unfortunately whilst following this forum i have found out much that I am unhappy with about JW Org. Much that tells me that God and Christ cannot be happy with this Organisation. I have also noted that some JW's on here are totally blind to any faults in the Org, and i think that is why 'those in opposition' have to 'shout so loudly'. 

Regarding only the CSA, it is Earth wide in the Org, and will probably take years to 'sort out', hence it may be the ruination of the Org. The GB seem to be fighting it every step of the way, which makes them look even more guilty IMO. And here in UK  there is talk of another investigation, this time by the I.I. C. S. A.  I haven't heard any follow up on this though. 

27 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

I was talking about a situation from 40 to 50 years ago, and it might have been a good thing, in that it revealed the tension that is seen before a necessary transition. There had been a time up until the years before 1975, when the strongest voices in the Writing Department and from the Vice President were considered to "gospel" for the Service Department. The Service Department was in charge of pushing higher and higher activity goals and was given a lot of credit when goals and quotas were met. But the Service Department also handled correspondence for serious lifestyle questions that came in, and ultimately handled disfellowshipping rules and practices. This tended to "bleed" back into the Writing Department so that "suggestions" and "principles" were being turned into Watchtower dogma. (For example, question about marital practices in the bedroom, or organ transplants based on the musings of Fred Franz turned into matters of disfellowshipping, when they probably should have been left up to the couple or individual. But after enough disfellowshippings over such things, the rules had to be set in stone.)

The head of Service wasn't ready to stop being a hard-liner when the Writing department had begun to realize that they had no reason to be hard-liners on every topic. So the tensions were necessary to get clarification, and hopefully the Writing department would win out on certain flexible points at a time when the Service department wanted to be unbending.

There was a time when elders all around the country sometimes said "The Society is actually Harley Miller" because it was Harley Miller who was in charge of the way questions were answered when the elders needed clarification. The brother I mentioned before took over for Harley Miller. (Sorry about that, I am trying to no longer use names but I've already mentioned FWF and HM.)

It seems to me now that the WT is much less likely to promote harsh handling on several of these points they once fought over. The Service/Correspondence departments are now evidently completely in line. And one of the reasons I think of the current GB as less likely to have "pedophiles" in their midst is that there are fewer, they appear to get along better, and I think they realize they must be much more careful about past mistakes and past reputation. When questionable persons were asked to join the GB during the 1970's, there was a rule that past mistakes of elders could be ignored if they were long enough in the past and they were not currently causing a reputation problem in the congregation. The point was that there was no need for any type of public reproval that the congregation needs to know about if it were far enough in their background. This is no longer true of any connection with child sexual abuse. No exceptions are to be made CSA, even if they were in the past.

 But after enough disfellowshippings over such things, the rules had to be set in stone.)

One has to wonder how many people were thrown to the wind, how many people were stumbled. How many may have become depressed, spiritually lost, or even committed suicide, 

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1 hour ago, 4Jah2me said:

Someone must vote in the Elders, and I don't think it has anything to do with holy spirit because we can see how wicked many elders have been and still are.

Are you sure that you are NOT John Butler?

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24 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

When questionable persons were asked to join the GB during the 1970's, there was a rule that past mistakes of elders could be ignored if they were long enough in the past and they were not currently causing a reputation problem in the congregation.

.... if they were long enough in the past....

19. If it comes to light or an appointed brother confesses that he has committed a disfellowshipping offense years in the past: The body of elders may determine he can continue to serve if the following is true:The immorality or other serious wrongdoing occurred more than a few years ago,and he is genuinely repentant,recognizing that he should have come forward immediately when he sinned. (Perhaps he has even confessed to his sin, seeking help with his guilty conscience.)He has been serving faithfully for many years, has evidence of God’s blessing, and has the respect of the congregation. 20. If the sin occurred before he was appointed as an elder or a ministerial servant,the elders will need to take into consideration the fact that he should have mentioned this possible impediment to his being qualified when elders interviewed him just prior to announcing his appointment. Moreover, the nature of the sin may reflect greatly on his qualifications to serve.For example,the sin may involve past child abuse,and this would likely disqualify him for many years.—w971/1pp.26-29;w77pp.697-698.

38 “Shepherd the Flock of God”—1Peter5:2

21. If the wrong doing occurred within the past few years while he was serving as an elder or a ministerial servant, he is disqualified from serving as such, not being“free from accusation.”(1Tim.3:2,10;Titus1: 6,7)Depending on the circumstances,the situation may also need to be handled by a judicial committee. —See5:43-44. 

Shepherd book 2012

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1 minute ago, 4Jah2me said:

Oh dear, I thought YOU would be above all that rubbish. Defence mechanism is it ?  

Sorry. Certain peculiar patterns and personalities emerge. I don’t really think that you are him. I do talk too much, and my wife IS getting impatient about that job I promised to do.

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@Arauna - "Jehovah judges perfectly because he understands perfectly.  BUT you are twisting the facts:

It is PEOPLE here on the forum who have appointed themselves as judges and definitely are not perfect judges. 

People here on this forum try to make JWs into monsters.... when the real monsters who are exploiting children are using the worldly system to do this.  The worldly legal system is becoming less and less accountable and favoring the rich and powerful (and certain favoured minorities) to do as they please."

Yes, the world is full of atrocities and horrors, but the world does not offer eternal life – the organization does.  Shouldn’t one’s focus be on how that will occur through an organization that is marked by some of the same atrocities found in the world?

@Srecko Sostar - “I can assume that all such individuals among the elders, who are in the minority, experience very serious, conflicting turmoil. For those elders who are very sensitive by nature, all that they may face can be too much. For such elders, who begin to perceive the paradox that arises between truth, justice, Jesus' teaching, on the one hand, and the corporate governance of that power, the power that human influences and positions (hierarchies) have of things, can end up very bad for themselves. Even in suicide.”

@4Jah2me - "So get real, wake up, and stop looking for excuses in the outside Devil's world.

Remember scripture, Don't tell your brother he has a straw in his eye, when you have a rafter in yours. = JW Org,  Don't say how wicked the outside world is when the inside of JW Org is just as wicked." 

How will the Kingdom arrive, through the choices the world makes, or the choices each anointed one makes? John 17:17; Rev 14;5   The anointed leaders of the org. easily judge their brothers and sisters in Christ.  The GB are not apostles, but uninspired men who “assume” they are allowed to make that decision.  They have given the elders the swift ability to mark them and all who question their teachings, as spiritually “dead” for not conforming to their own bad choices, or for turning directly to Christ who can offer one eternal life.  Micah 3:5; John 16:2; Rev 13:15

This is a more serious accusation than one losing their physical life at the hands of a corrupt worldly system. 

“The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.” John 6:63

The words the GB speak, are not full of life.  Their historical record of bad choices proves it.   Col 2:8  God doesn't erase their mistakes made while leading the flock, unless they repent and turn around.  Which they haven't.  Jer 23:32

 

 

 

 

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19 minutes ago, Witness said:

world does not offer eternal life

Do you offer eternal life or eternal strife?  It is easy to judge and take the splinter from GB eyes..... when the beam is in your own.  

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1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Shepherd book 2012

...  and now Shepherd book 2019

CAUTIONS BEFORE RECOMMENDING CERTAIN BROTHERS

6. Elders should make sure they have full and complete information regarding the brothers they intend to recommend to the circuit overseer, especially those in the following circumstances.

7. Previously Reproved, Disfellowshipped, or Disassociated: If he was reproved within the past three years or reinstated within the past five years, please provide the following information: What was the offense? In a case of reproof, did the judicial committee make an announcement? In a case of disfellowshipping or disassociation, what is the date of reinstatement? When were the last restrictions lifted? Are you aware of his having been reproved, disfellowshipped, or disassociated on any other occasions? What convinces you that he has lived down his past wrongdoing and that others now view him as a good example? If the wrongdoing took place in another congregation, how would that congregation view his appointment? Recommending him prematurely could minimize the seriousness of wrongdoing in his own eyes and in the eyes of others. It could also disturb those who still have his wrongdoing fresh in their memories.

8. Guilty of Adultery in the Past: When did the adultery occur? Was he reproved or disfellowshipped? If he was reproved, was an announcement made? Did the innocent mate reject him? How do you know this? If he divorced and remarried, did he marry the individual with whom he committed adultery? Is there evidence that he schemed to put away his former mate or that he pressured her to accept a divorce? Did the adultery break up the marriage of the other person? How were others affected by his adultery? Is the innocent mate still alive? Did the innocent mate remarry? What convinces you that he has lived down his past wrongdoing and is now viewed with respect? If the wrongdoing took place in another congregation, how would that congregation view his appointment?-See 12:10-12. CHAPTER 8 "SHEPHERD THE FLOCK OF GOD" APPOINTMENT AND DELETION OF ELDERS AND MINISTERIAL SERVANTS

9. Separated or Unscripturally Divorced: Who is primarily to blame for the marital problems? What were the circumstances surrounding the separation or divorce? Who was responsible for the separation, or who pursued the divorce? Did both sign the decree or in some other way indicate their agreement? How long ago did the separation or divorce occur? What is the brother doing to try to reconcile? Is his mate unwilling to cooperate with his efforts? If so, why? How is his situation viewed by the congregations involved? How do the elders of the mate's congregation feel about the brother? When separation and divorce are involved, there may be deficiencies on the part of one or both mates that make it necessary to limit special privileges because one or both mates may not be viewed as exemplary.-w00 12/15 pp. 28-29; /vs pp. 250-251.

10. Served as an Elder or a Ministerial Servant in the Past: With what congregation did he previously serve, and when did he stop serving? Why did he stop serving? What makes his circumstances different now? What progress has he made since he stopped serving? If he stopped serving in another congregation, how would that congregation view his reappointment? If he previously served as an elder and was not guilty of gross wrongdoing, it may not be necessary for him now to serve first as a ministerial servant, depending on the length of time since he stopped serving as an elder.-See 13:8.

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23 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Do you offer eternal life or eternal strife?  It is easy to judge and take the splinter from GB eyes..... when the beam is in your own.  

Only Christ can offer us eternal life, not an organization, a false Zion.  If I follow Christ and am condemned by the GB for doing so, who is it that carries the beam in their eye?  

He said to the crowd: “When you see a cloud rising in the west, immediately you say, ‘It’s going to rain,’ and it does. 55 And when the south wind blows, you say, ‘It’s going to be hot,’ and it is. 56 Hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of the earth and the sky. How is it that you don’t know how to interpret this present time?"  Luke 12:54-56

JWs see and "interpret" the appearance of what is happening in the world, judging each individual within it as marked for destruction during their version of Armageddon; while not paying any attention to what is happening among God's "saints".  

Mark 24:24 -  "For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time."

 

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The self-righteous JW apologists on this forum are pitiful. They're more than willing to condemn individuals in "the world" for wicked conduct, but just as willing to excuse similar conduct among themselves, and especially by their leaders the Governing Body. Mostly they simply deny that these charlatans did anything wrong at all. Much like Donald Trump's Republican defenders are doing in the current House impeachment hearings.

Let's watch as some JW apologists try to excuse their leaders for the conduct described below.

JW Insider mentioned a circuit servant in Australia who was removed and reassigned in the early 1950s. This was Theodore Jaracz, who later became a GB member (according to Raymond Franz he was appointed by Nathan Knorr as a slap in the face to the other GB members who had ousted Knorr from power; he was known for being unreasonably harsh). Jaracz eventually worked his way into the de facto position of 'supreme GB member' by force of personality, essentially replacing Fred Franz and becoming head of the Service Department. As such, and because of his temperament, he was feared and hated by many lower-order Bethelites. There is very good evidence that Knorr had removed Jaracz as a circuit servant in Australia for some sort of sexual misconduct with a minor(s), which is a smoking gun for his attempts to hide all mention of child sexual abuse from the JW rank and file, both in print and in dealings that appointed officials such as Circuit and District Overseers had with elders and the rank and file. If Jaracz was a child molestor 40 years earlier, it was a good bet that he retained a tendency to excuse them in the 1990s.

Jaracz was at odds with GB member Lloyd Barry, who by all accounts was a decent man.

As for other GB members, by far the worst I know of was Leo Greenlees, who was removed from the GB in late 1984 for sexually molesting a 10-year-old boy. The parents reported the molestation to the Society, and eventually the GB met as a judicial committee to deal with the accusation. They found Greenlees guilty, but judged him repentant, and assigned him to be a special pioneer, which entitled him to the usual SP stipend. This was obviously self-serving, since to expose Greenlees' misconduct to the public would have been fatal to the JW organization. After all, a homosexual pedophile does not develop those proclivities at age 72, but has been practicing such things since he was a young man, and Jehovah God would not anoint a homosexual pedophile as an elder, much less as a GB member. Furthermore, the Ray Franz incident was fresh in the GB's minds, and Franz had recently published "Crisis of Concience", and likely the GB wanted to take no chances of a repeat with Leo Greenlees. So they avoided disfellowshipping him and sent him off with a stipend.

This situation with Leo Greenlees is positive proof that "Jehovah God" has nothing to do with the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses.

Another GB member wicked by JW standards was Ewart Chitty, who in the early 1980s was removed from the GB and reassigned to a lower level position in the UK Bethel. Chitty was, in modern parlance, very "flaming" (i.e., exhibited strongly stereotyped homosexual behavior). He seemed to prefer young men as roomates. Apparently there were accusations of inappropriate behavior by several young Bethelites, which caused his demise.

Once again we see behavior by a GB member entirely inconsistent with the Society's doctrine that elders and GB members are "appointed by holy spirit".

There is even evidence that Nathan Knorr was a closet homosexual. He did not marry until he was 48 years old, and his wife is reported to have told close friends that their marriage was never consummated. Knorr was obsessed with telling young men, especially new Bethelites, to avoid masturbation, which invokes clear shades of "methinks thou dost protest too much". And of course, his failure to remove Theodore Jaracz in the early 1950s as a Watchtower official but reassigning him to a lower position in the WTS organization strongly indicates that Knorr was soft on child sexual abuse.

Many Watchtower officials have traditionally been soft on child molestation. In the mid-1940s my own mother, in her mid-teens, was hit on by at least one prominent WTS official much her senior.

 

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5 minutes ago, AlanF said:

The self-righteous JW apologists on this forum are pitiful. They're more than willing to condemn individuals in "the world" for wicked conduct, but just as willing to excuse similar conduct among themselves, and especially by their leaders the Governing Body. Mostly they simply deny that these charlatans did anything wrong at all. Much like Donald Trump's Republican defenders are doing in the current House impeachment hearings.

Let's watch as some JW apologists try to excuse their leaders for the conduct described below.

JW Insider mentioned a circuit servant in Australia who was removed and reassigned in the early 1950s. This was Theodore Jaracz, who later became a GB member (according to Raymond Franz he was appointed by Nathan Knorr as a slap in the face to the other GB members who had ousted Knorr from power; he was known for being unreasonably harsh). Jaracz eventually worked his way into the de facto position of 'supreme GB member' by force of personality, essentially replacing Fred Franz and becoming head of the Service Department. As such, and because of his temperament, he was feared and hated by many lower-order Bethelites. There is very good evidence that Knorr had removed Jaracz as a circuit servant in Australia for some sort of sexual misconduct with a minor(s), which is a smoking gun for his attempts to hide all mention of child sexual abuse from the JW rank and file, both in print and in dealings that appointed officials such as Circuit and District Overseers had with elders and the rank and file. If Jaracz was a child molestor 40 years earlier, it was a good bet that he retained a tendency to excuse them in the 1990s.

Jaracz was at odds with GB member Lloyd Barry, who by all accounts was a decent man.

As for other GB members, by far the worst I know of was Leo Greenlees, who was removed from the GB in late 1984 for sexually molesting a 10-year-old boy. The parents reported the molestation to the Society, and eventually the GB met as a judicial committee to deal with the accusation. They found Greenlees guilty, but judged him repentant, and assigned him to be a special pioneer, which entitled him to the usual SP stipend. This was obviously self-serving, since to expose Greenlees' misconduct to the public would have been fatal to the JW organization. After all, a homosexual pedophile does not develop those proclivities at age 72, but has been practicing such things since he was a young man, and Jehovah God would not anoint a homosexual pedophile as an elder, much less as a GB member. Furthermore, the Ray Franz incident was fresh in the GB's minds, and Franz had recently published "Crisis of Concience", and likely the GB wanted to take no chances of a repeat with Leo Greenlees. So they avoided disfellowshipping him and sent him off with a stipend.

This situation with Leo Greenlees is positive proof that "Jehovah God" has nothing to do with the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses.

Another GB member wicked by JW standards was Ewart Chitty, who in the early 1980s was removed from the GB and reassigned to a lower level position in the UK Bethel. Chitty was, in modern parlance, very "flaming" (i.e., exhibited strongly stereotyped homosexual behavior). He seemed to prefer young men as roomates. Apparently there were accusations of inappropriate behavior by several young Bethelites, which caused his demise.

Once again we see behavior by a GB member entirely inconsistent with the Society's doctrine that elders and GB members are "appointed by holy spirit".

There is even evidence that Nathan Knorr was a closet homosexual. He did not marry until he was 48 years old, and his wife is reported to have told close friends that their marriage was never consummated. Knorr was obsessed with telling young men, especially new Bethelites, to avoid masturbation, which invokes clear shades of "methinks thou dost protest too much". And of course, his failure to remove Theodore Jaracz in the early 1950s as a Watchtower official but reassigning him to a lower position in the WTS organization strongly indicates that Knorr was soft on child sexual abuse.

Many Watchtower officials have traditionally been soft on child molestation. In the mid-1940s my own mother, in her mid-teens, was hit on by at least one prominent WTS official much her senior.

 

I don't know you and I don't know the who's who of GB members over the years, but I do have a tendency to believe you. 

So i will now await others that have your knowledge, to weigh in with agreement or disagreement. 

Let battle commence :) 

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2 hours ago, AlanF said:

The self-righteous JW apologists on this forum are pitiful. They're more than willing to condemn individuals in "the world" for wicked conduct, but just as willing to excuse similar conduct among themselves, and especially by their leaders the Governing Body.

Couldn’t the term “apologist” be applied to those that criticize the Org? I don’t think there is a difference in defense with that. Please excuse my English grammar. I understand someone might seem uneducated.

 

2 hours ago, AlanF said:

JW Insider mentioned a circuit servant in Australia who was removed and reassigned in the early 1950s. This was Theodore Jaracz, who later became a GB member (according to Raymond Franz he was appointed by Nathan Knorr as a slap in the face to the other GB members who had ousted Knorr from power; he was known for being unreasonably harsh)

Can you provide proof?

2 hours ago, AlanF said:

As for other GB members, by far the worst I know of was Leo Greenlees, who was removed from the GB in late 1984 for sexually molesting a 10-year-old boy. The parents reported the molestation to the Society, and eventually the GB met as a judicial committee to deal with the accusation.

Since this accusation was never proven, do you have supporting evidence that gives us concrete evidence?

2 hours ago, AlanF said:

Another GB member wicked by JW standards was Ewart Chitty, who in the early 1980s was removed from the GB and reassigned to a lower level position in the UK Bethel. Chitty was, in modern parlance, very "flaming" (i.e., exhibited strongly stereotyped homosexual behavior). He seemed to prefer young men as roomates. Apparently there were accusations of inappropriate behavior by several young Bethelites, which caused his demise.

Once again we see behavior by a GB member entirely inconsistent with the Society's doctrine that elders and GB members are "appointed by holy spirit".

There is even evidence that Nathan Knorr was a closet homosexual.

Again, can you provide that evidence? Have you ever been a JW, or are you submitting talking points from AD1914?

2 hours ago, AlanF said:

Many Watchtower officials have traditionally been soft on child molestation. In the mid-1940s my own mother, in her mid-teens, was hit on by at least one prominent WTS official much her senior.

Can you provide statistics to any of the above allegations?

2 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

So i will now await others that have your knowledge, to weigh in with agreement or disagreement. 

Let battle commence

How can someone go about doing that without violating the terms posted?

In addition to the terms and policies upon signup, each member agrees to "disagree without being disagreeable."

This is a place where news and ideas are expressed, debated and information shared and as such ad hominem (personal) attacks  or labels are not permitted.

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This is a place where news and ideas are expressed, debated and information shared and as such ad hominem (personal) attacks  or labels are not permitted.

You are joking of course ? The forum would not exist or would stand silent if people stuck to this rule :) 

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3 hours ago, AlanF said:

JW Insider mentioned a circuit servant in Australia who was removed and reassigned in the early 1950s. This was Theodore Jaracz, who later became a GB member

@AlanF Haven't seen you around these parts for a while. I see the name @scholar JW pop up in a "Who's Online" box now and it always reminds me of the fact that he seemed to love a 587 debate, wherever he could find one. I always appreciated your knowledge on that topic (although, you also scare me with your evolution/atheism arguments).

But back to the point. I did not know that you knew this much about the Lloyd Barry and Ted Jaracz situation. I was going to start avoiding using so many names but, yes, of course you are talking about the same people.

In case you are even more aware of some of these details I would like to run another situation by you, especially since it sounds like you might be aware of details that would clarify or adjust what I think I know. I had just decided earlier today NOT to share this part of the story because of how unbelievable and contrived it might sound. But I'm going to go ahead and put it out here, and I'll take a cue from you and use names this time:

And by the way I don't know if you know C.A. (still alive) but he is the WTS source for most of this particular story, either directly or indirectly. He is currently living in a residence just off the Bethel campus, and is not doing that well health-wise. I prefer that his name is not spelled out here, because I'm sure he would have preferred that these issues were not widely publicized in a forum such as this. I embarrassed myself in front of him on my first day at Bethel over 40 years ago, by telling him about a problem with the pay phones in the Bethel lobby. He listened and then shrugged as if he could not have cared less about it. I don't know why it still embarrasses me so much, but it doesn't matter, we got along very well from that point until even long after I left Bethel. He himself got involved in some even more embarrassing situations at Bethel, which I think you know about.

He was in the Service Department under Miller and Jaracz, and shortly after I left Bethel, he was "promoted" to the Writing Department.

But this story is primarily from back in 91 to 92. After the 91 article, brothers and sisters thought it was good to start telling their stories of sexual abuse to the elders, to the Society, and to professional therapists. The situation was very unnerving for the Society and for local elders too, especially when the accused were those they knew and wanted to defend in some way. There was a big new controversy over repressed memories and whether all these accusations could actually be false. Elders in California, and a couple other states were actually starting classes in "repressed memories" and trying to learn what they could about psychiatry. Victims were coming out of the woodwork.

So Brother Jaracz who tried to keep it "anonymous" from the rest of the Service Department, talked to several of the brothers who were known to be on the rise and who had requested or were being considered for Bethel positions in the Service Department. These were Brother Pierce, West, Lett and Beagle, possibly among others. Pierce and Beagle were sent to California to handle circuits that TJ had been in, and West and Lett were assigned to Wisconsin, at least, there might have been other areas and brothers involved too.

To give you an idea of who these people were, Beagle, Pierce and Lett were called in to work as C.O.s and D.O.s around the NYC area. (West may have been too, but I don't know what happened to him.) This is a commonly known sign that they are being watched and in close communication with the Service Department, and Bethelites "in the know" start guessing at this point that they will soon be called in to Bethel for "top jobs"

CA, in fact, predicted when Beagle would come in (he was immediately assigned to the Service Department) and CA guessed in advance that Pierce would go straight to the Governing Body. I think he may have had some inside information.

The two most intimidating were Beagle (six foot six) and Pierce (short but a bulldog with a smile). The intimidation campaign actually produced letters complaining about both of these persons, which was another reason for moving them to NYC. Pierce (from the Salem OR area) had a range of complaints about his "weirdness." 

An old accusation from 1991 actually ended up revealing clearly that it was TJ behind the anonymous campaign, as he sent a letter on his own letterhead (his codes) to a sister (a victim's mother) whose daughter was sexually abused by more than one elder since she was young. The mother died, and the daughter is in possession of letters between her mother and the WTS, including at least one from TJ. And based on the content of the letters, she recalled that it was West and Lett who met with her to warn her and her mother that they would be disfellowshipped if they exposed the story.

This part of the story, if true, would provide further confirmation that Lett and West were involved in the same intimidation. I already knew something of Pierce and Beagle because of relatives in California.

Brother Beagle, by the way, (young) died suddenly of a heart problem shortly after he began his assignment in the Service Dept. Brother Lett, of course, is now on the Governing Body and made himself famous to this victim (and exJWs, and probably other victims) by implying that apostate lies were behind the spread of rumors about the WTS covering up child sexual abuse.

[edited to remove some of the state locations and too many specifics about the victim and victim's family. If you copied a previous version, please reload the page to get the edited version.]

 

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And you think this Organisation has God's blessing. And you think Jesus Christ died for this ? 

And you think 'Only those in JW Org will be saved ?  

And yes, the GB said Apostate lies were behind the Child Sexual Abuse 'rumours'. 

And you and others wonder why some folks dislike the GB and it Org ?  I honestly want to cry. 

How will God, through Christ, sort out this total mess ?  How will Jesus be King of a Kingdom full of hypocrites ? 

And some say the end is nigh. Give it 10 years maybe. That way God and Christ will have hopefully built an earthly Organisation worthy of THEM. 

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43 minutes ago, César Chávez said:
3 hours ago, AlanF said:

As for other GB members, by far the worst I know of was Leo Greenlees, who was removed from the GB in late 1984 for sexually molesting a 10-year-old boy. The parents reported the molestation to the Society, and eventually the GB met as a judicial committee to deal with the accusation.

Since this accusation was never proven, do you have supporting evidence that gives us concrete evidence?

I have the feeling this evidence could possibly be in the orgs. files that certain lawyers are trying to get their hands on.

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31 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

In case you are even more aware of some of these details I would like to run another situation by you, especially since it sounds like you might be aware of details that would clarify or adjust what I think I know. I had just decided earlier today NOT to share this part of the story because of how unbelievable and contrived it might sound. But I'm going to go ahead and put it out here, and I'll take a cue from you and use names this time:

All those accusations and allegations can be found in any of the thousands of ex-witness websites. However, I will ask you the same thing I just asked AlanF?

Can you provide concrete evidence? The way I see it, accusations should be accompanied by proof. In all honesty, I can’t support hearsay as evidence by ex-witnesses.

3 minutes ago, Anna said:

I have the feeling this evidence could possibly be in the orgs. files that certain lawyers are trying to get their hands on.

I would support evidence that can be traced and verified. Ex-witness accounts don't interest me. Were you a JW in the 70s and 80s? There are certain facts that were escuplitory, but never proven. For one, witnesses turned out to be less reliable not just to the Org, but to secular authority. I however am not referring to the Bethel gossip.

45 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

This is a place where news and ideas are expressed, debated and information shared and as such ad hominem (personal) attacks  or labels are not permitted.

You are joking of course ? The forum would not exist or would stand silent if people stuck to this rule

These are the terms and conditions of this website not my own.

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3 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

All those accusations and allegations can be found in any of the thousands of ex-witness websites.

I think that several items of information in my last post cannot be found in ANY of the thousands of ex-witness websites.

I have never mentioned the Pierce, West, Lett, Beagle incidents before, and I doubt that C.A. has publicized anything. I would be extremely surprised if you found the case of the mother who got a letter from TJ about her daughter, or even which circuits that Beagle and Pierce were sent to, and which circuits West and Lett went to. In a previous version I gave the state and even an indication of how the story came up again recently. I removed it because I realized that it involved too many specifics about a living person.

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17 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

I would support evidence that can be traced and verified. Ex-witness accounts don't interest me. Were you a JW in the 70s and 80s? There are certain facts that were escuplitory, but never proven. For one, witnesses turned out to be less reliable not just to the Org, but to secular authority. I however am not referring to the Bethel gossip.

I have found from my experience as a JW for more than 30 years, that although you might never get the EXACT details about something, you can be sure of one thing, and that is: if there is smoke, it's because there is, or was a fire.

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46 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

I think that several items of information in my last post cannot be found in ANY of the thousands of ex-witness websites.

I have never mentioned the Pierce, West, Lett, Beagle incidents before, and I doubt that C.A. has publicized anything.

You'd be surprised if you dig hard enough. 

Within the ex-witness community, any insider can offer the same talking points. I don’t condom hearsay. The one that is laughable is, of course, the Knorr accusation. To the same extent, Rutherford was accused of homosexuality, a drunkard, and a womanizer. None of which could be proven. Maybe it was the way he walked. 😏

 That hasn’t stopped ex-witnesses from bringing it up. If AlanF found such information, it could have been relayed to him by an attending witness.

 However, I have an open mind. Not as open to have anyone influence me in order to state, being here has opened my eyes to the truth. That’s a loaded perception. I’m not interested in ex-witness talking points but to see actual evidence.

43 minutes ago, Anna said:

I have found from my experience as a JW for more than 30 years, that although you might never get the EXACT details about something, you can be sure of one thing, and that is: if there is smoke, it's because there is, or was a fire.

This could be true. How do you feel about gossip that can start a blazing fire, and in the end, it was just a smokescreen? Please excuse my clumsy grammar. I'm not as sophisticated as most of you are here.

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8 hours ago, César Chávez said:

You'd be surprised if you dig hard enough. 

It's very probable that other people know certain features, and can help validate pieces of the story. But neither you nor I have any knowledge that this is already out there somewhere, so I already knew you were bluffing. (It reminds me of the style that "Allen Smith" often utilized to bluff and bluster.)

I'm sure that you just don't realize that the portion of this story that puts it in perspective is fairly recent. I'm sure a lot of people knew that it was TJ behind the intimidation campaign, but he clearly didn't want his name involved, so that limited the number who could tell what was happening, even from within the Service Department. From the "field" people might have known and complained about Beagle or Pierce, but how could anyone in the "field" have ever known that this was part of a campaign that included targeted areas in the Midwest. I can also name the victim, and I searched on this victim's name, a dozen different ways and although I can find the name, it is not associated (yet) in any public way with these allegations or with these other persons.

8 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Within the ex-witness community, any insider can offer the same talking points.

I think that there is a very good reason that no one has ever offered these same talking points. And there is a very good reason that you can't point to them either.

8 hours ago, César Chávez said:

I don’t condom hearsay. The one that is laughable is, of course, the Knorr accusation. To the same extent, Rutherford was accused of homosexuality, a drunkard, and a womanizer. None of which could be proven.

Curious spelling of condone. Reminds me of how Cesar Chavez would have pronounced "Columbus" as "Colon," where the m and n move in the other direction. The Knorr idea has been suggested before. I have my strong doubts, but I have heard it pointed out that he always surrounded himself with tall, good-looking men: The Adams family (all three brothers), Max Larson, etc. There was another widely known homosexual Branch Servant at the time in Canada, Percy Chapman, who did such a good job managing the Branch that no one seemed to care. But I think it was Knorr who finally had him removed (not that this proves anything about Knorr, one way or another).

I have never heard of Rutherford being accused of homosexuality. I didn't search, but it was never one of the accusations floating around inside Bethel. My own table head (the Bethel Elder at the head of every morning and lunch table) worked with Rutherford and claimed that he was a drunkard, a womanizer, and a contentious blowhard, but this is the first I have ever heard of a complaint of homosexuality.

 It can be proven that at least one husband divorced his wife over all the time that his wife was spending alone with Rutherford.

8 hours ago, César Chávez said:

If AlanF found such information, it could have been relayed to him by an attending witness.

True, but he seemed to have some details I had never known anyone else to mention, but they match things I heard about before exJW websites existed, and before the Web existed. And an attending witness could actually provide a lot of useful help here.

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5 hours ago, AlanF said:

self-righteous JW apologists

Who appointed you as judge?  As for some of the rumours you talk about - some people's sexual "inclinations" - it remains rumour or ugly gossip. 

Deviant people are everywhere and they can remain undetected - then one has to gather evidence to convict.  Getting evidence is the hardest part because it is your word against mine type of situation.  Jesus could see in Judas's heart and saw a pattern in his behaviour before he betrayed him.......... BUT the example should warn us......  Judas was appointed by Jesus.  His heart was good at the time of appointment.   Jehovah himself appointed Saul as king because he saw his heart.......... what changed?   Can these scenarios be repeated?  If it can happen to God ..... do we ever have a chance at a "perfect" organization?......  

What I learnt from the piece you wrote is that there were  GB members who were removed... and some were shunned by others for  domineering behaviour. .....so no-one is too powerful to NOT  be held accountable to some degree.  There were bad things happening which really  tested the faithful brothers...... which (to me) sounds similar to the times of Israel.   Israel was used  by God but sometimes the conditions were very wicked and trying - especially for the faithful.  Think how depressed Elijah became.  Things written before for our encouragement and endurance. 

Look to jehovah in these times - not imperfect people.  Fortunately I come from a  family who do not look up to people yet I myself have made bad decisions by taking the wrong brothers too seriously.   BuT it has taught me resilience.... 

 

 

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1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

It's very probably that other people know certain features, and can help validate pieces of the story. But neither you nor I have any knowledge that this is already out there somewhere, so I already knew you were bluffing. (It reminds me of the style that "Allen Smith" often utilized to bluff and bluster.

I don't see where this is relevant to an honest discussion. Perhaps you can explain further. Also, I have been upfront that English is not my primary language. I believe I have made it known in recent posts. Therefore, I don't appreciate being mocked by you.

"Curious spelling of condone. Reminds me of how Cesar Chavez would have pronounced "Columbus" as "Colon," where the m and n move in the other direction."

1.       Stephen Lett: A top Jehovahs Witness leader once dismissed widespread sexual abuse allegations as "false stories." For much of the last two decades.

2.       Guy Hollis Pierce:?      

 Child molestation 2001 case

 Theodore Jaracz & Alan Feuerbacher

 If I was to give credence to authors like James Paton, Raymond Franz, and advocates like Barbara Anderson and William Bowen, I would have to believe the author Carl Olof Jonsson.

 I would have to believe the false allegations drawn by questionable Bethel members against Ewart C. Chitty. If the accusation was true. He had homosexual tendencies because he preferred to bunk with lush young male bethelites

 No different from that of Leo K. Greenlees. AlanF makes an absolute claim he was found guilty. I would like to see the proof on that.

 Then a remark is made on how witnesses will make every attempt to defend the GB when he can’t defend his own allegations with proof. That is laughable. That gives it a spin with the starting statement “The self-righteous JW apologist” on this forum (are) pitiful. How else can we see such opposition?

Grammar error with (are) to be understood better with (is) by AlanF

 

5 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Who appointed you as judge?  As for some of the rumours you talk about - some people's sexual "inclinations" - it remains rumour or ugly gossip. 

I'm sorry to say this person is usually brought in to insult and give no substance to any debate when opposers are losing the argument.

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3 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

And you think this Organisation has God's blessing. And you think Jesus Christ died for this ? 

There is a lot of evidence that on the whole the organization has God's blessing, in spite of the "scandals". Here are just a few examples of observations from  outsiders: "It is a rare sight for people of widely different nationalities and cultures to bond together with such warm affection, although total strangers to one another........... With such a big crowd reaching several thousands, crowd control could have been quite a nightmare. But what the authorities and others saw surprised them. Pasay City police chief Col. Bernard Yang personally dropped in at the convention area and said, “Your preparations are perfect. We of the police unit assigned here for crowd control had felt no stress. Your people are very disciplined and followed all pedestrian rules. They’re all smiles too.” .............. It appears the convention’s theme “Love Never Fails” has proved not just a matter of faith, but a matter of personal conduct for Jehovah’s Witnesses, wherever they may be, in every aspect of their life......etc.

I do not think so many people could pretend, and make this happen, unless they were genuine, and unless they had a measure of God's blessing. In the congregations, individuals feel blessed that they have learned God's standards regarding living a clean life (not smoking, not taking drugs, morality etc.) because they were able to avoid many of the consequences and heartaches these things bring with them. They also feel confident and blessed about a good future for the earth, which many people, even religious ones, do not feel. They also feel confident and blessed about their reward, whether it be earthly or heavenly.

Yes, Jesus Christ died for everyone.

3 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

And you think 'Only those in JW Org will be saved ?  

Personally? No I don't think that. It would be illogical to think so because there are so many who will never be given an opportunity to be in JW org. There are 8 million Witnesses, and 8 billion people on earth, so statistically it's an impossibility to reach everyone.

3 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

And yes, the GB said Apostate lies were behind the Child Sexual Abuse 'rumours'. 

No, the GB said that saying we were trying to protect pedophiles were apostate lies. Not that sexual abuse never happened.

3 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

How will God, through Christ, sort out this total mess ?  How will Jesus be King of a Kingdom full of hypocrites ? 

Wait and see 🙂. And we know Jesus's Kingdom won't be full of hypocrites.

3 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

And some say the end is nigh. Give it 10 years maybe. That way God and Christ will have hopefully built an earthly Organisation worthy of THEM. 

Yes, leave it to them.

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César Chávez said:

Quote

 

     5 hours ago, AlanF said:

    The self-righteous JW apologists on this forum are pitiful. They're more than willing to condemn individuals in "the world" for wicked conduct, but just as willing to excuse similar conduct among themselves, and especially by their leaders the Governing Body.

Couldn’t the term “apologist” be applied to those that criticize the Org? I don’t think there is a difference in defense with that. Please excuse my English grammar. I understand someone might seem uneducated.

 

No, "apologist" means someone who defends a position or organization. You're thinking of "critic". Your English is not a problem as long as you don't get self-righteous about it. I can read a bit of Spanish but would not do well writing in it.
 

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    5 hours ago, AlanF said:

    JW Insider mentioned a circuit servant in Australia who was removed and reassigned in the early 1950s. This was Theodore Jaracz, who later became a GB member (according to Raymond Franz he was appointed by Nathan Knorr as a slap in the face to the other GB members who had ousted Knorr from power; he was known for being unreasonably harsh)

Can you provide proof?

 

The information about Jaracz comes from several ex-Bethelites who were in a position to know. You can read Franz's Crisis of Conscience for the information about Knorr's appointment of Jaracz.
     

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    5 hours ago, AlanF said:

    As for other GB members, by far the worst I know of was Leo Greenlees, who was removed from the GB in late 1984 for sexually molesting a 10-year-old boy. The parents reported the molestation to the Society, and eventually the GB met as a judicial committee to deal with the accusation.

Since this accusation was never proven, do you have supporting evidence that gives us concrete evidence?

 

Supporting evidence that would not hold up in court is what I have. It wouldn't hold up in court for the simple reason that all the GB members involved are dead, and so far, the molested boy has not come forward. But there is much circumstantial evidence.

According to several ex-Bethelites writing on various JW related forums since the mid-1990s, shortly after Greenlees was booted out of Bethel there were a lot of rumors ciculating. One morning at breakfast GB member Martin Poetzinger mounted the dais and announced something like, "The affair of Leo Greenlees is closed!"

From Jan. 1, 1986 Watchtower, p. 13:

<< Shocking as it is, even some who have been prominent in Jehovah’s organization have succumbed to immoral practices, including homosexuality, wife swapping, and child molesting. >>

That's an obvious reference to Greenlees, and probably Chitty.

During the 1990s I participated in several ex-JW forums. About 1994 the Society published some information about molestation victims that triggered much discussion over the next few years. Several people related stories of being inappropriately touched by Greenlees when they were 10-15 years old. Others related their personal stories of molestation at the hands of various JWs.

When I reconnected personally with Barbara Anderson in 1997, I mentioned the ongoing discussions about Greenlees. Her response was, "I'm glad you've been publicizing what that monster did!" Then she told me what Writing Staff member Ciro Aulicino had told her in 1991-1992.

Aulicino was the Bethel gossip accumulator, and for whatever reason, various Bethelites including GB members would tell him things that would ordinarily be called gossip. He relayed these things on to others. Around 1991 Aulicino learned that the Bethel Personnel director and GB member Daniel Sydlik had rejected an application for Bethel service by a young man. Why? Because he was the boy that Greenlees had molested, and Sydlik was afraid that the boy might tell of his molestation by Greenlees 7-8 years earlier. Aulicino was very bothered by the fact that the boy was being mistreated yet again by a GB member.

In 1998-1999 I participated in the now-defunct H2O ex-JW forum. There appeared a Bethel official who called himself 'Friend', and was assiduously anonymous. His main concern was to turn the Society around on the blood issue. I had many private email conversations with him, and in one I asked him how he could in good conscience remain a Watchtower official, considering that Greenlees was a GB-convicted child molester and all that implied. He became angry and asked, "Why are you bringing up that old stuff?"

In 2000 I had several conversations in person with another Watchtower official. At one point I asked him the same question I had posed to 'Friend'. He proceeded to excuse what had happened as the result of human imperfection, so I asked him about the question of "appointment by holy spirit". He opened up about various details of the Greenlees affair that I had not known about. This official was very much in a position to have certain knowledge of GB actions.In 2002 my JW parents learned of my involvement with Silentlambs. They disinherited me and in effect, disfellowshipped me from their 'family', which they informed me of by letter. I called them and spoke to my elder stepdad, finally asking him how he could in good conscience be an elder when the Greenlees affair proved that JW elders certainly are not appointed by holy spirit. He had no knowledge of Greenlees, so I explained. He didn't know what to say. Now, my parents had often entertained GB members, including Albert Schroeder and Daniel Sydlik. So I called them a couple of weeks later, and again challenged my stepdad about the Greenlees affair. This time he was knowledgeable, and did not dispute anything I said about Greenlees, which told me that he had consulted his GB friends and confirmed it all.
     

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    5 hours ago, AlanF said:

    Another GB member wicked by JW standards was Ewart Chitty, who in the early 1980s was removed from the GB and reassigned to a lower level position in the UK Bethel. Chitty was, in modern parlance, very "flaming" (i.e., exhibited strongly stereotyped homosexual behavior). He seemed to prefer young men as roomates. Apparently there were accusations of inappropriate behavior by several young Bethelites, which caused his demise.

    Once again we see behavior by a GB member entirely inconsistent with the Society's doctrine that elders and GB members are "appointed by holy spirit".

    There is even evidence that Nathan Knorr was a closet homosexual.
    Read more   

Again, can you provide that evidence? Have you ever been a JW, or are you submitting talking points from AD1914?

 

The information on Chitty came from several ex-Bethelites. I doubt they would want to come forward publicly at this time.

I was raised a JW, but gradually quit after the 1975 fiasco.I have submitted many talking points to AD1914.
     

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    5 hours ago, AlanF said:

    Many Watchtower officials have traditionally been soft on child molestation. In the mid-1940s my own mother, in her mid-teens, was hit on by at least one prominent WTS official much her senior.

Can you provide statistics to any of the above allegations?

 

You have only to look at the last 20 years' worth of accusations against the Society, and of course, the many court cases they've either lost outright, or settled out of court on.

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42 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

I'm sorry to say this person is usually brought in to insult and give no substance to any debate when opposers are losing the argument.

Thanks for the compliment - you seem to take offence pretty quickly - which indicates a bit of an ego. I am not "brought in"   ..... I butt in by my own free will..... and I do not need your permission.... lol. 

I just wish to remind you that I do have a different viewpoint to most people here (because I am African and we call a spade a spade)  and while I do not have a debating spirit - I have never seen the need to "win" an argument - I have a viewpoint and an opinion which can enhance understanding from a different perspective - that is all.  If you see no use in it that is your choice. 

And for your accusation about insults - I think you do pretty well at it yourself!

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JW Insider said:
     

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AlanF said:

    JW Insider mentioned a circuit servant in Australia who was removed and reassigned in the early 1950s. This was Theodore Jaracz, who later became a GB member

@AlanF Haven't seen you around these parts for a while. I see the name @scholar JW pop up in a "Who's Online" box now and it always reminds me of the fact that he seemed to love a 587 debate, wherever he could find one. I always appreciated your knowledge on that topic (although, you also scare me with your evolution/atheism arguments).

 

Why? If they're correct, you shouldn't be afraid of the truth. Tell me what you think of the one I posted earlier today as a new topic.

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But back to the point. I did not know that you knew this much about the Lloyd Barry and Ted Jaracz situation. I was going to start avoiding using so many names but, yes, of course you are talking about the same people.

I know a lot about all this. I have no problem using names, because exposing evildoers is proper for those who love the truth.

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In case you are even more aware of some of these details I would like to run another situation by you, especially since it sounds like you might be aware of details that would clarify or adjust what I think I know. I had just decided earlier today NOT to share this part of the story because of how unbelievable and contrived it might sound. But I'm going to go ahead and put it out here, and I'll take a cue from you and use names this time:

And by the way I don't know if you know C.A. (still alive) but he is the WTS source for most of this particular story, either directly or indirectly.

 

Since I already used his name in my previous post, I'll use it here. I met Ciro back in 1992 on a private Bethel tour hosted by Barbara Anderson. He was enthusiastic about some new information they had dug up about some Bible expositors mentioning 1914 well before Russell did.

But Ciro is only one source for this, and he either doesn't know, or never told Barbara Anderson about the most damning details that I related in my previous posts.

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He is currently living in a residence just off the Bethel campus, and is not doing that well health-wise. I prefer that his name is not spelled out here, because I'm sure he would have preferred that these issues were not widely publicized in a forum such as this.

Again I have no problem with using his name, partly because he was the point man for the Society's involvement with the U.N. He's quite dishonest and deserves to be exposed.

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I embarrassed myself in front of him on my first day at Bethel over 40 years ago, by telling him about a problem with the pay phones in the Bethel lobby. He listened and then shrugged as if he could not have cared less about it. I don't know why it still embarrasses me so much, but it doesn't matter, we got along very well from that point until even long after I left Bethel. He himself got involved in some even more embarrassing situations at Bethel, which I think you know about.

Yes, he wrote those thoroughly disingenuous 1993 Awake! articles pretending that the Society supported U.N. goals in order to qualify to be an Associated NGO for the U.N.

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He was in the Service Department under Miller and Jaracz, and shortly after I left Bethel, he was "promoted" to the Writing Department.

I met Miller several times, since he and my dad were buddies in the Correspondence Dept. in the 1940s.

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But this story is primarily from back in 91 to 92. After the 91 article, brothers and sisters thought it was good to start telling their stories of sexual abuse to the elders, to the Society, and to professional therapists. The situation was very unnerving for the Society and for local elders too, especially when the accused were those they knew and wanted to defend in some way. There was a big new controversy over repressed memories and whether all these accusations could actually be false. Elders in California, and a couple other states were actually starting classes in "repressed memories" and trying to learn what they could about psychiatry. Victims were coming out of the woodwork.

All that led to various discussions in pre-Web ex-JW forums that resulted in the exposure of Greenlees as a possible molester.

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So Brother Jaracz who tried to keep it "anonymous" from the rest of the Service Department, talked to several of the brothers who were known to be on the rise and who had requested or were being considered for Bethel positions in the Service Department. These were Brother Pierce, West, Lett and Beagle, possibly among others. Pierce and Beagle were sent to California to handle circuits that TJ had been in, and West and Lett were assigned to Wisconsin, at least, there might have been other areas and brothers involved too.

I think the name was Biegle. He was the District Overseer for the congregation my wife was in during the 1980s.

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To give you an idea of who these people were, Beagle, Pierce and Lett were called in to work as C.O.s and D.O.s around the NYC area. (West may have been too, but I don't know what happened to him.) This is a commonly known sign that they are being watched and in close communication with the Service Department, and Bethelites "in the know" start guessing at this point that they will soon be called in to Bethel for "top jobs"

I didn't know about Lett and West.

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CA, in fact, predicted when Beagle would come in (he was immediately assigned to the Service Department) and CA guessed in advance that Pierce would go straight to the Governing Body. I think he may have had some inside information.

The two most intimidating were Beagle (six foot six) and Pierce (short but a bulldog with a smile). The intimidation campaign actually produced letters complaining about both of these persons, which was another reason for moving them to NYC. Pierce (from the Salem OR area) had a range of complaints about his "weirdness."

An old accusation from 1991 actually ended up revealing clearly that it was TJ behind the anonymous campaign, as he sent a letter on his own letterhead (his codes) to a sister (a victim's mother) whose daughter was sexually abused by more than one elder since she was young. The mother died, and the daughter is in possession of letters between her mother and the WTS, including at least one from TJ. And based on the content of the letters, she recalled that it was West and Lett who met with her to warn her and her mother that they would be disfellowshipped if they exposed the story.

This part of the story, if true, would provide further confirmation that Lett and West were involved in the same intimidation. I already knew something of Pierce and Beagle because of relatives in California.

Brother Beagle, by the way, (young) died suddenly of a heart problem shortly after he began his assignment in the Service Dept. Brother Lett, of course, is now on the Governing Body and made himself famous to this victim (and exJWs, and probably other victims) by implying that apostate lies were behind the spread of rumors about the WTS covering up child sexual abuse.

 

Jaracz really was a monster, alright. I know that many Bethelites rejoiced when he died.

 

3 hours ago, Anna said:

I have the feeling this evidence could possibly be in the orgs. files that certain lawyers are trying to get their hands on.

Of course it is. I have no doubt that most of the current GB and the GB helpers, as well as many senior Service and Writing Dept. officials know all about it.

César Chávez said:

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Within the ex-witness community, any insider can offer the same talking points.

Not true.

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I don’t condom hearsay.

Generally wise, but not always.

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The one that is laughable is, of course, the Knorr accusation.

Knorr's wife Audrey would disagree. This was all brought out in bits and pieces on various public forums and in private conversations with ex-Bethelites, including an ex-District Overseer who was one of Knorr's proteges in the 1950s. Look up 'Maximus' on the JWD forum.

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To the same extent, Rutherford was accused of homosexuality,

Never heard of that.

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a drunkard, and a womanizer.

Those he was. Firsthand testimony came from some of the Bible Students who broke off from the Society around 1928 after Rutherford ditched most of Russell's cherished teachings. Watchtower officials today do not deny these accusations.

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None of which could be proven. Maybe it was the way he walked. 😏

There is the sort of proof that would hold up in criminal court, and the weight of evidence sort that holds up in civil court. That Rutherford was a drunk would certainly hold up in any court, since the 1940s Moyle case proved it.

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That hasn’t stopped ex-witnesses from bringing it up. If AlanF found such information, it could have been relayed to him by an attending witness.

Whatever that means.

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Arauna said:
     

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    7 hours ago, AlanF said:

    self-righteous JW apologists

Who appointed you as judge?

 

Same one who appointed your Governing Body.

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As for some of the rumours you talk about - some people's sexual "inclinations" - it remains rumour or ugly gossip.

Only to you. Not to me, because I have definite knowledge of the events I've described.

On the other hand you have nothing to dispute any of it.

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Deviant people are everywhere and they can remain undetected - then one has to gather evidence to convict.

Which is what the GB did to convict Leo Greenlees of being a pedophilic, homosexual child molester.

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Getting evidence is the hardest part because it is your word against mine type of situation.  Blah blah blah.

Your worship of the GB is so strong that even if Jesus himself told you that they are not what they claim, you wouldn't believe him. You're one those I had in mind when I mentioned self-righteous JW apologists.  

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What I learnt from the piece you wrote is that there were  GB members who were removed... and some were shunned by others for  domineering behaviour. .....so no-one is too powerful to NOT  be held accountable to some degree.

Wow! You actually learned something!

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There were bad things happening which really  tested the faithful brothers...... which (to me) sounds similar to the times of Israel.   Israel was used  by God but sometimes the conditions were very wicked and trying - especially for the faithful.  Think how depressed Elijah became.  Things written before for our encouragement and endurance.

Except that the Old Testament relates that many miraculous events proved that Elijah and others were really appointed by God to do his bidding. What does the GB offer? Their word. And how valuable is that? The history of Watchtower leaders from before it even existed proves that not a single prediction they made came true, and that their false teachings make a pretty big pile of trash.

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Look to jehovah in these times - not imperfect people.  Fortunately I come from a  family who do not look up to people yet I myself have made bad decisions by taking the wrong brothers too seriously.   BuT it has taught me resilience....  

So are you claiming you don't worship the Governing Body? Don't let your fellows know, or you'll be disfellowshipped for apostasy.

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1 hour ago, AlanF said:

No, "apologist" means someone who defends a position or organization. You're thinking of "critic". Your English is not a problem as long as you don't get self-righteous about it. I can read a bit of Spanish but would not do well writing in it.

 

Something like what you are doing?

1 hour ago, AlanF said:

The information about Jaracz comes from several ex-Bethelites who were in a position to know. You can read Franz's Crisis of Conscience for the information about Knorr's appointment of Jaracz.

What you are saying, witnesses should believe ex-witnesses. How does that make sense? Why should I believe anything an Ex-GB had to say in his book?

1 hour ago, AlanF said:

Supporting evidence that would not hold up in court is what I have. It wouldn't hold up in court for the simple reason that all the GB members involved are dead, and so far, the molested boy has not come forward. But there is much circumstantial evidence.

According to several ex-Bethelites writing on various JW related forums since the mid-1990s, shortly after Greenlees was booted out of Bethel there were a lot of rumors ciculating. One morning at breakfast GB member Martin Poetzinger mounted the dais and announced something like, "The affair of Leo Greenlees is closed!"

Then you have no proof. Why should anyone believe anything you have to contribute?

1 hour ago, AlanF said:

The information on Chitty came from several ex-Bethelites. I doubt they would want to come forward publicly at this time.

I was raised a JW, but gradually quit after the 1975 fiasco.I have submitted many talking points to AD1914.

More hearsay. However, I know of your affiliation with AD1914 CARM. It doesn't impress me one bit. 

1 hour ago, AlanF said:

You have only to look at the last 20 years' worth of accusations against the Society, and of course, the many court cases they've either lost outright, or settled out of court on.

I have. I also know many cases have been overturned. So how about giving some concrete evidence instead of dead talking points?

51 minutes ago, Arauna said:

hanks for the compliment - you seem to take offence pretty quickly - which indicates a bit of an ego. I am not "brought in"   ..... I butt in by my own free will..... and I do not need your permission.... lol. 

I just wish to remind you that I do have a different viewpoint to most people here (because I am African and we call a spade a spade)  and while I do not have a debating spirit - I have never seen the need to "win" an argument - I have a viewpoint and an opinion which can enhance understanding from a different perspective - that is all.  If you see no use in it that is your choice. 

And for your accusation about insults - I think you do pretty well at it yourself!

I believe you were directing your comment to AlanF in which case I responded to. I think you need to put on your spectacles sister if you think I was talking about you. Don't be so quick to judge when you have erred.

 

New International Frontiers in Child Sexual Abuse 2019

Theory, Problems and Progress

General Prevalence The reported prevalence of CSA continues to be disturbingly high. A recent meta-analysis found high levels of victimisation in most nations for both girls and boys; globally, 1 in 8 children (12.7%) had suffered CSA, with rates of 18% for girls and 7.6% for boys (Stoltenborgh et al. 2011). Even in the USA, where substantial efforts have been dedicated to prevention for several decades, and where there is some evidence to indicate a decline in recent years, the most recent national study found that 21.7% of all 14- to 17-year-olds reported experiencing some form of sexual victimisation in their childhood, and in the past year, 16.4% of girls and 9.4% of boys aged 14–17 reported such an experience (Finkelhor et al. 2015). These data included 12.9% of girls and 5.1% of boys aged 14–17 reporting they had experienced attempted or completed rape. A national study from 2006 in

the USA found 4.5% of participants reported experiencing contact CSA by a parent or adult caregiver, before sixth grade (Hussey et al. 2006).

 Developing Nations In Yemen, where there are no laws setting an age for marriage or criminalising rape in marriage, families made desperate by war and hunger are selling their daughters as child brides. Child brides are exposed to daily rape and beating (Youssef 2017). The market in China for trafficked and enslaved child brides from other countries such as Myanmar is growing (Baker 2017). Despite recent progress, child marriage remains a massive problem, with an estimated 700 million women alive today being married as a child.

 Western Nations In Western nations, this problem is exemplified by recent selected events in the USA, France, Australia, and the UK. In the USA, a substantial number of states have amended civil statutes of limitation to give survivors of child sexual abuse a more reasonable amount of time in which to commence civil legal proceedings for compensation for their injuries. However, many other states, including Massachusetts, New York, and Pennsylvania, have resisted reform, influenced by powerful institutions – most notably the Catholic Church and Agudath Israel of America. Some have described the strategies used by the Catholic Church as “mafia-like” (Kirchgaessner 2016).

 England In England, a number of scandals have been revealed regarding organized criminal gangs that have been operating with impunity for years on a mass scale, with a succession of revelations of entire towns being epicentres of CSA. In these cases, the criminal gangs have comprised exclusively or mostly men from British-Asian backgrounds, with this thought to have been one factor influencing authorities’ reluctance to intervene due to a fear of being perceived as racially motivated.

 Definition of the Concept

In Chap. 2, I will cover in much more detail the complex problem of defining the term “child sexual abuse”. It is a contested concept, and different definitions have been used in research, policy, epidemiology and law. Child sexual abuse is generally understood at a minimum to include a range of acts covering penetrative abuse, masturbation, oral sex, fondling, and involvement in pornography, and other acts to sexually gratify the abuser in circumstances where the child cannot or does not give true consent. The World Health Organization (1999, 2006) states child sexual abuse occurs when the child is involved “in sexual activity that he or she does not fully comprehend, is unable to give informed consent to, or for which the child is not developmentally prepared and cannot give consent, or that violate the laws or social taboos of society”.

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