All Eight Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses members are now individually named on two New York Child Victims Act case documents

[Vic Vomidog]

1 hour ago, Anna said:

You are a sick dog!

Many, many lies have been told about me here! Maybe you have shared in this wicked plot. JWs are trying to silence me! They are afraid of what I know! Soon they will see that they are right to be afraid of me.

[Anna]

My word @ASF-37 how many identities do you have Allen Smith?

[Srecko Sostar]

1 hour ago, ASF-37 said:

Srecko,

How many other religions do you go into their forums to argue child abuse? I’m not referring to how many religions you combine here but instead go directly to the hundreds of other religious websites and daily barrage them with questionable content that is being supplied on the internet, that is apparently accepted by Jehovah witnesses here in order to agree with persons that impugn and repudiate their religious bylaws?

Why then, are you not satisfied that there are many Jehovah witnesses here, in agreement with ex-witnesses; that you have a need to continue with such conduct?

Thanks for respond.

Perhaps you have right that my conduct is boring, but this Topic is about one and same subject. I see my participation as something that is inside this topic.  

I am glad that some other JW's are in agreement with my thoughts as well some other ex-JW. Perhaps you too is in one of this group.

As i can understand @Arauna position, or your' after this respond you addressed me, it seems that me and some other people using "questionable content". What is questionable about Court document and GB members as Defendants in it?

[Anna]

25 minutes ago, AllenSmith-38 said:

How many do you have Anna? Personally, I just regenerated an account yesterday. I keep getting kick off because You, TTH, JWinsider can’t stand being exposed and what your true purpose is for being in opposition of the watchtower that the librarian wink! Wink! Keeps banning me without even posting a word, lol!..........................................etc.

I don't have the time nor patience to respond to this nonsense.

[AlanF]

Anna said:
    

Quote

 

AlanF: Do you really think that God would appoint a homosexual pedophile to the Governing Body of his organization? Do you really think that God is so hypocritical? Do you even believe in God?
    
Anna: Of course I don't think that.

AlanF: Then how did that homosexual pedophile get to be on the Governing Body? Remember that such men don't start their pedophile activities at age 72, but much younger.

 

Anna, you're sidestepping my question. I asked you if you think that God would appoint a man such as Greenlees. Not whether fallible men would appoint him.

Quote

It was believed, until quite recently, that every sinner can change. Even homosexual pedophiles. "This is what some of you were", says Paul at 1 Cor. 6:11.  I am assuming when Greenlees was appointed, it was believed he belonged in that category of "some of you were, but are no longer". The appointment, as all appointments are, was based on qualifications outlined in 1Timothy 3:1-7. I am assuming he met those qualifications at the time he was named. It is now understood (although I believe the society balked at first, being convinced that the scripture applies in absolutely every case, no exceptions)  that people with these problems are for the most part incurable, but can fool others, including themselves, into thinking that they are cured. I find it difficult to believe this man would be appointed, knowing he still had that problem. What would be the purpose? Surely there would be plenty of other brothers, and there were, I think 18 at that time. For JWS, the Bible is a template for practically EVERYTHING.

Nothing about God appointing Greenlees here.

Quite the opposite, in fact. You've argued that, even though the Society claims "appointment by holy spirit", that's not actually what happens. Rather, imperfect men make appointments, and then JWs pretend that holy spirit did it. But there are plenty of other examples that disprove this claim. And most JWs know it, even if they refuse to admit it to themselves or others.

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Much to the irritation of people who wonder how can someone be directed by a book thousands of years old.

First, JWs only pretend that the Bible is such a template. When push comes to shove, most JWs will push the Bible aside when Watchtower tradition or practice gets in the way. Do you want examples from my personal dealings with them?

Besides, reading a book and claiming that the book directs their actions is an exercise in self-deception. A claim of "direction" implies active direction on the part of the one said to be directing. Passive direction is a nonsensical idea. Someone might say that Chef Emil directed her to make a pot of stew in his cookbook, but that's only a manner of speaking, since Chef Emil actually did no directing. Someone who claimed active direction by Chef Emil would be viewed as a nutcase by her listeners.

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Without a doubt, JWS have made mistakes in their interpretation of some Bible passages.

You have a knack for understatement.

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Perhaps one of these mistakes was misunderstanding the scripture at 1 Cor 6:11. It can not mean that those who have "been made clean", will always stay clean or that they are cured. We know that from evidence. Greenlees being a case in point.

It appears that you know that Greenlees was a homosexual child molester for many years, including when he was appointed a Watchtower Society Director in 1964, which in turn implies that he was such for many years before that. Just when in the years between his youth and his appointment to the GB in 1971 had he "been made clean"?

And what about God's viewing his heart? Was God ever fooled by an outward appearance of repentance?

The bottom line is that God has never had anything to do with the appointment of GB members or any other JW elders -- no more so than with appointing the Pope or any other religious leader.

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The scripture is talking about those particular disciples, it does not mean it applies across the board, to every single person especially with regard to homosexuality. The apostle Paul had to pummel his body, and lead it as a slave, and he was just an ordinary sinner, no homosexual or pedophile. So no one is ever going to be faultless and yet, according to the scriptures, they have the potential to be forgiven and accepted by God if they stop.

But Greenlees never stopped.

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With regard to the sickness of pedophilia, these people have got to be kept away from children, so that they are not able to molest them, and so that children are safe, because they cannot stop.Today, no one who has a history of CSA, can ever serve in any capacity in the congregation, ever.

Not true. There are many instances where a molester known to some elders has been put back into some position of responsibility in some congregation. Barbara Anderson has a list of those known to her.

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We have an old man in our cong. who has some kind of history in the distant past, and he is not allowed to do anything, except comment, and he must be accompanied by a brother in FS, without exception.

Good! Note that whatever happens along those lines is far more affected by the way local elders -- not Watchtower officials in Warwick -- view child molesters.

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Part of the changes are no doubt due to the ARC, and the recognition of the truthfulness of some of the issues raised there. But I am sure that some of it has been because it was recognized that in the past, elders had been hoodwinked into thinking that someone with pedophilic tendencies has been reformed, and will never repeat the offense again. This realisation was unfortunately at the cost of other children being molested, not just the original child.

This is a Pollyanna view and only sometimes represents reality. Since this issue became publicly known in 2002 with the NBC Dateline and Panorama programs, plenty of cases of elders covering up child molestation have occurred. Some of those are the subject of the Zalkin lawsuits. In most coverup cases that I'm aware of, the elders took it upon themselves to cover up, or were directed to cover up by the Service Department. The overriding principle is "protect the JW organization's name at all costs." That's true even if the JWs involved personally abhor molestation, as attested by court cases and the far more numerous cases that never went to court.

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So, if it was today, Greenlees would have never been appointed not only as GB member, but he would have never become an elder or ministerial servant either.

You're far too naive. There are things afoot that will publicly expose a lot more corruption on the part of Watchtower officials and some local elders.

And of course, you've clearly admitted that the Society's claim that elders are appointed by holy spirit is a lie.

 

[Anna]

Please see my original answer to your original question:

22 hours ago, Anna said:

22 hours ago, AlanF said:

Do you really think that God would appoint a homosexual pedophile to the Governing Body of his organization?

Of course I don't think that.

 

[AlanF]

César Chávez said:

Quote

 

...
    And of course, you're so dishonest that you still refuse to admit that you messed up when you copy/pasted "apologists" wrongly, thus causing you to double down on a ridiculously stupid argument.
    Read more   

Only a lamebrain would argue writing style.

 

Well then, you're a lamebrain.

Quote

 

You suck at yours. The only stupid one here is you, since you are the only one thinking he has a command on grammar, but then again, I can understand JWinsider. Keep your ego going, you are meaningless as JWinsider and nothing as AlanF. Maybe you should convince your pale at Bethel to steal more documents for you. Then you will actually have some kind of proof. Don't forget to doctor them, as they are done in AD1914, and any apostate site.

When spell check doesn't find a problem between "its" and "it's" what makes you think you know better?

 

The Chicago Manual of Style is a good source.

Quote

 

Maybe you can play with the word "doctored" versus "altered". Either way, who cares what you think, not me. 😉😁

Like I said, put up or shut up. Don't continue your meaningless garbage.

 

Aw, pobrecito! As usual, Allen Smith, you're reduced to insane ranting.

 

[Witness]

On 11/16/2019 at 11:11 PM, Arauna said:

If a person was involved in wrongdoing  the elders cannot STOP them to move to a new location - only inform the new location. This (jws) is NOT a dictatorship...... a word you love to use. ..... ONE minute you judge us for being too harsh and the next that we are too soft? Heh?   Perfect logic? Want to eat pie on BOTH sides..... 

Would you like it if you committed fornication or  some other act if the entire act was announced to the congregation?   Where does mercy begin and harshness end?    Thank goodness humans are not the judge but Jehovah and his son.   If someone from outside congregation attends our meetings parents must watch their children.   It is not our place to decide  who is worthy of everlasting life.

Again: must we tell this person they are not welcome ?  Throw them out?  Especially when the top government officials are coverring up these kind of  crimes when people have money..... so NO redemption for the poor?   

It is EASY to judge and break down when your own sense if justice is aske. Jah sees it from both sides.

Study the laws that were in place and do not judge us by the current laws retroactively  but by the neglect of congress (regress) to not put proper laws in place. 

Highlights and caps are mine. 

Arauna, I thought you might be interested in this latest news article.  While your statement above appears to show leniency to the perpetrator, please see how this woman as a young girl, was judged by the elders.  

Man who raped Jehovah's Witness girls sentenced to 5 years in prison

"It’s finally over. This chapter is finally closed," Moriah Hughes, who was 14 when then-25-year-old Elihu Rodriguez sexually abused her, said.

 

Nov. 20, 2019, 9:49 AM PST

By Elizabeth Chuck

A man who pleaded guilty to raping two underage girls he met through the Jehovah's Witness congregation they all belonged to has been sentenced to five years in prison — a "relief" to his victims.

Elihu Rodriguez, 32, of Yakima, Washington, was given five years, the maximum sentence prosecutors had asked for, after Rodriguez pleaded guilty to three felony counts of child rape in the third degree in September. He was also ordered to register as a sex offender. Both of his victims attended the sentencing, which took place Friday at the King County Maleng Regional Justice Center in Kent, Washington.

NBC News does not typically identify survivors of sexual abuse, but one of Rodriguez's victims, Moriah Hughes, chose to share her story last year. She said she had been five days away from turning 15 when Rodriguez, then 25, first raped her in October 2012 at her home in Federal Way, Washington.

Hughes told NBC News after Rodriguez was sentenced that she "felt fantastic" knowing he was going to be behind bars.

"It’s finally over. This chapter is finally closed," she said. "I can continue my life knowing that the trauma was worth it. I didn’t go through this for nothing. I was justified."

 

At Rodriguez's sentencing, Hughes described to the court how her life was "completely derailed" by the abuse. Through tears, she said religious leaders put the blame on her, and said, “my life was hell.”

"I couldn’t sleep, I couldn’t eat and when I did I was so on edge, the smallest upset would cause me to purge whatever I had consumed into the nearest toilet," Hughes, 22, said in a victim impact statement, adding that she was later diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder and that something as benign-seeming as cologne that smelled like Rodriguez's would cause her to have a debilitating panic attack.

At one point, Hughes said at the sentencing, she was so crippled by depression, she contemplated ending her life. She told the court that she wrote a suicide note last year to her friends and family "apologizing for not being stronger, begging someone to 'please, love my cat, Goose.'"

 

Hughes said she felt ashamed and confused by what was happening, and at first did not tell anyone.

But when she moved to Fairfield, Washington, about a year later, she worked up the courage to report it to three elders at her congregation there. In both her interview with NBC News and in the victim impact statement that she read in court, Hughes said that there were times when she doubted Rodriguez would be ever be disciplined.

The elders she reported the rape to "basically told me that it was my fault. They told me that I wasn't sorry enough to God … They had used the Bible to victim-shame me for what I had done, and they never did anything to him," Hughes told NBC News in October 2018, weeks after a jury in a separate case awarded $35 million to a Montana woman who claimed Jehovah's Witnesses covered up the abuse she suffered at the hands of a congregation member as a child. (Two months ago, an attorney for the Jehovah’s Witnesses asked the Montana Supreme Court to reverse the $35 million verdict; the court did not make an immediate ruling).

Hughes filed charges through the King County Superior Court in Washington in July 2018. The three felony charges Rodriguez pleaded guilty to a couple months ago encompassed the abuse against Hughes, as well as against a 12- or 13-year-old Jehovah's Witness girl he allegedly had a relationship with around the same time.

Press officers for the Jehovah’s Witnesses have not commented on Rodriguez’s arrest or conviction. Last year, when Hughes disclosed the allegations of abuse to NBC News, the Office of Public Information at the World Headquarters said in an email that "it would be inappropriate for us to comment on specific cases."

Hughes has since left the religion and works in the Spokane, Washington, area as an administrative assistant at a private medical company. She originally spoke to NBC News under her married name, Smith, but has since got divorced and now uses her maiden name.

Gregory L. Scott, Rodriguez's Yakima-based attorney, told NBC News that Rodriguez is "extremely remorseful."

For Hughes, remorse is not enough. She is working with attorney Irwin Zalkin, whose San Diego law firm has been litigating against Jehovah's Witnesses across the country for nearly two decades, to file a civil suit against the Jehovah's Witnesses. Zalkin said he is likely to file the suit in the coming month.

Do I feel that they have a practice of protecting predators? Absolutely. Not a question," Zalkin said. "They have no clue about grooming. They have no training or understanding of how sexual predators work."

Zalkin has brought more than 30 lawsuits against the Jehovah's Witnesses related to claims of childhood sexual abuse, about a third of which have successfully ended in settlements, he said. Zalkin said the upcoming civil suit will likely name the congregation where Hughes' abuse occurred, the congregation where she reported it, as well as the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses, among other entities.

There was no response to calls from NBC News this week from the congregations.

The public information desk for the U.S. branch of Jehovah's Witnesses told NBC News in an email that "child protection is a priority for Jehovah’s Witnesses," calling child sexual abuse "a gross sin and a wicked deed."

"Governed by the law of the Christ, our congregations do not shield perpetrators of abuse from the consequences of their sins," it said.  

"Elders endeavor to comply with secular laws about reporting allegations of abuse. Such laws do not conflict with God’s law. So when they learn of an allegation, elders immediately seek direction on how they can comply with laws about reporting it," the statement said.

Hughes said she hopes by taking legal action against the Jehovah's Witnesses, she can prevent what happened to her from happening to anyone else.

"That would be really awesome," she said. "It's a good thing coming from a bad thing."

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/man-who-raped-jehovah-s-witness-girls-sentenced-5-years-n1082136

 

[AlanF]

Anna said:

Quote

Please see my original answer to your original question:

But in my response I carefully explained that you did not actually answer my question, but sidestepped it. Read it again.

[Anna]

2 hours ago, AlanF said:

Anna, you're sidestepping my question. I asked you if you think that God would appoint a man such as Greenlees. Not whether fallible men would appoint him.

I would have liked to merge this with my reply above, but had to go away and do something. Anyway, as I've already shown, I did not side step your question but I answered directly that I do not think God would appoint a man such as Greenlees:

1 hour ago, Anna said:

On 11/19/2019 at 6:03 PM, AlanF said:

Do you really think that God would appoint a homosexual pedophile to the Governing Body of his organization?

Of course I don't think that.

 

2 hours ago, AlanF said:

You've argued that, even though the Society claims "appointment by holy spirit", that's not actually what happens. Rather, imperfect men make appointments, and then JWs pretend that holy spirit did it.

Like I said:

2 hours ago, AlanF said:

Anna said: The appointment, as all appointments are, was based on qualifications outlined in 1Timothy 3:1-7.

The process by which holy spirit "appoints" is through that scripture. Since JWS believe the Bible is inspired of God by means of holy spirit, then if one works along with the scriptures, one is working along with the holy spirit. Obviously in the case under discussion, holy spirit could not have appointed this man because unbeknown to those making the decision, he did not qualify. Which also answers your other question:

2 hours ago, AlanF said:

And what about God's viewing his heart? Was God ever fooled by an outward appearance of repentance?

Obviously it was not God but men who were fooled.

2 hours ago, AlanF said:

But Greenlees never stopped

Obviously. However I very much doubt that someone would have purposefully employed a pedophile.

2 hours ago, AlanF said:

There are many instances where a molester known to some elders has been put back into some position of responsibility in some congregation. Barbara Anderson has a list of those known to her.

I am sure she has, and hopefully she has given that list to the Police.

2 hours ago, AlanF said:

JWs only pretend that the Bible is such a template. When push comes to shove, most JWs will push the Bible aside when Watchtower tradition or practice gets in the way. Do you want examples from my personal dealings with them?

Sure

2 hours ago, AlanF said:

It appears that you know that Greenlees was a homosexual child molester for many years, including when he was appointed a Watchtower Society Director in 1964, which in turn implies that he was such for many years before that. Just when in the years between his youth and his appointment to the GB in 1971 had he "been made clean"?

I don't know much about him, only from what you and JWI said.

2 hours ago, AlanF said:

Since this issue became publicly known in 2002 with the NBC Dateline and Panorama programs,

That's hardly and inspiration for reform.  I have seen them. Full of loaded language and sensationalism. However, the ARC was a different kettle of fish.

 

2 hours ago, AlanF said:

Some of those are the subject of the Zalkin lawsuits. In most coverup cases that I'm aware of, the elders took it upon themselves to cover up, or were directed to cover up by the Service Department.

I am sure there have been coverups. But I am sure you know cases are very complex. I have read two court transcripts (two different cases) each several thousand pages long. So I know what I am talking about.

2 hours ago, AlanF said:

Quote

So, if it was today, Greenlees would have never been appointed not only as GB member, but he would have never become an elder or ministerial servant either.

 There are things afoot that will publicly expose a lot more corruption on the part of Watchtower officials and some local elders.

That's good. Children need protecting.

2 hours ago, AlanF said:

And of course, you've clearly admitted that the Society's claim that elders are appointed by holy spirit is a lie.

No, I did not say it was a lie. It's you, you are not comprehending the process. Those days of tongues of fire are long gone, with all the other outward manifestations of miracles etc.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

@TrueTomHarley    That is the longest bit of self righteous advertising i have ever read on here. In fact it was so boring that i skipped lots.  And once again a SMOKE SCREEN  to get away for the REAL topic. 

6 minutes ago, Anna said:

I would have liked to merge this with my reply above, but had to go away and do something. Anyway, as I've already shown, I did not side step your question but I answered directly that I do not think God would appoint a man such as Greenlees:

 

Like I said:

The process by which holy spirit "appoints" is through that scripture. Since JWS believe the Bible is inspired of God by means of holy spirit, then if one works along with the scriptures, one is working along with the holy spirit. Obviously in the case under discussion, holy spirit could not have appointed this man because unbeknown to those making the decision, he did not qualify. Which also answers your other question

Obviously it was not God but men who were fooled.

Obviously. However I very much doubt that someone would have purposefully employed a pedophile.

I am sure she has, and hopefully she has given that list to the Police.

Sure

I don't know much about him, only from what you and JWI said.

That's hardly and inspiration for reform.  I have seen them. Full of loaded language and sensationalism. However, the ARC was a different kettle of fish.

 

I am sure there have been coverups. But I am sure you know cases are very complex. I have read two court transcripts (two different cases) each several thousand pages long. So I know what I am talking about.

That's good. Children need protecting.

No, I did not say it was a lie. It's you, you are not comprehending the process. Those days of tongues of fire are long gone, with all the other outward manifestations of miracles etc.

So no one in the JW Org is appointed by Holy Spirit. No one in the JW Org is Inspired of Holy Spirit.

Wow, that seems to say that the JW Org, and it's GB, have no Holy Spirit between all of them.  And the proof is coming out in the court rooms every day  

[AlanF]

Arauna said:
    

Quote

 

    16 hours ago, Anna said:

    , elders had been hoodwinked into thinking that someone with pedophilic tendencies

In the past university professors were hoodwinked. Social services placed children back in the homes with pedophile fathers.

 

Ah, so God's spirit-directed organization should be judged by such 'worldly' standards. Such self-serving hypocrisy!
     

Quote

 

    19 hours ago, AlanF said:

    Once again, try using Grammarly.

Arrogance!

 

Nope. That moron first wrongly criticized my grammar and twice refused to be corrected. Or can't you read? Or is your age impeding your understanding?

Quote

I bet you only speak English well

I've said that several times in this thread. Did you not comprehend? Or do you think you're making a point?

Quote

but expect others to write your "style".

Wrong. I expect that others will not be gross hypocrites, and will not stupidly try to remove a non-existent splinter from my eye when they have a rafter in theirs.

Quote

Many here speak several languages of which English is not their first language.

Sure, and I envy them for that. But they shouldn't challenge a competent native English speaker unless they have all their ducks in a row.
     
Arauna said:
     

Quote

 

    22 hours ago, AlanF said:

    will be another couple of generations before they reach the status of of religions in Australia, the UK,

I think you are too busy studying the sordid inner circle gossip details if the few cases of pedophilia amongst JWs,  that you have little knowledge of what is happening in the real world.

 

LOL! You, who gets most of her knowledge of the world via Watchtower publications, have the gall to say that!

Quote

 

All religion will soon be replaced by either worship of the state or one world religion which will take the form of a set of values which will include  LGBTQ ......P

In your mind that will be wonderful because you hate all religion and cling to the dogma of Darwinism....... only ..... your disappointment will be great because you will be gnashing your teeth in anger at  the true God when he reveals himself.

 

The Watchtower Society has been making claims like that since its beginning. Not one claim has come true. It taught that 1914 would bring "the end". It taught that 1918, 1920 and 1925 would bring Armageddon. It taught that Armageddon would come shortly after 1942. Then 1975 was really going to be "IT". Then 2000. After that, virtually every year after 2000.

No, Arauna, just like so many now-dead JWs, just before you die you're going to realize how badly your leaders have hoodwinked you.
Arauna said:
     

Quote

 

    21 hours ago, AlanF said:

    proves unarguably that any postulated Creator is far from loving. A loving Creator, by definition, could not create a world in which the daily lot of so many life forms is to suffer a nature “red in tooth and claw”. Thus, either the God of the Bible is not loving, or he does not exist.

Only two? What about a third postulation..... that God is not the source of the problem but allows it to exist for a reason...... Your reasoning is occam's razor -    very limited........ all that reading of Dawkins' junk is showing.

 

As I predicted, no reasonable answer here.

You have no actual reason that "nature red in tooth and claw" has existed for half a billion years. You believe that God created all life, so he must be the author of such a thing.

How could God not be the source of a "nature red in tooth and claw"?

My argument comes not from Dawkins but from a careful consideration of the Bible and scientific facts.

Do you have any actual arguments?
Arauna said:
     

Quote

 

    22 hours ago, AlanF said:

    alternative is that there are one or more other sorts of Creators

That idea must have come from the idea of 23 universes in string "theory"..... oh you are so smart! Congratulate yourself.

 

No, it comes from thinking about the situation. This is not rocket science.
  

Quote

 

    On 11/19/2019 at 12:27 PM, AlanF said:

    None so blind as those who will not see.

That argument goes two ways.  

 

Except that I've demonstrated that you and most of your fellow JWs really do refuse to see. The few that do see prove my point.
     

Quote

 

    On 11/18/2019 at 9:17 PM, AlanF said:

    Your worship of the GB is so strong that even if Jesus himself

You do not know me and make many assumptions.

 

But your posts indicate that you believe the Governing Body can do no wrong because you refuse to acknowledge any of their wrongdoing. You obviously view them as infallible, and you view them as they want to be viewed -- as God's anointed spokemen.

Prove me wrong if you disagree.

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On the other hand - you may have some truths, but like all haters of JWs

Not a hater, but a realistic viewer. You seem to have absorbed the post-modernist view that criticism is hatred.

Quote

you have no balance or reasonableness and always go to extremes.

Nonsense. You cannot cite examples.