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Jack Ryan

All Eight Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses members are now individually named on two New York Child Victims Act case documents

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15 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Yes, @Arauna, an excellent challenge for you. Put each “joke” under the microscope. Analyze it with critical thinking skills to PROVE that it is funny or not funny. Just think how enriched your life will be!

It is like when I watch Colbert. I do not just laugh because the plebeians are laughing—what do they know? I run each joke into the lab for a bevy of tests. If I determine thereby using science that it was funny, I laugh my sides off.

If you actually read things before you worked on your rebuttal, you would see that @Arauna‘s comment has nothing to do with chronology.

It has to do with political developments that she has in position to know that will make you wish the end had come, even should you be on the wrong side.

Let's add to your intellectual sins: totally missing the point.

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10 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

I think the Watchtower words were ' make mistakes and err'

So in your eyes does that mean make mistakes and make mistakes  (which makes no sense) 

Or, does it mean make mistakes and deliberately do wrong ?  

You must be reading something into this that isn't there. The quote I think you were trying to remember is probably this:

*** w17 February p. 26 par. 12 Who Is Leading God’s People Today? ***
The Governing Body is neither inspired nor infallible. Therefore, it can err in doctrinal matters or in organizational direction. . . .Of course, Jesus did not tell us that his faithful slave would produce perfect spiritual food.

 

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I can see you being brave telling off all these hypocrites, @AlanF. I love to see this! And you are helping me to overcome my fear! It feels so good after all these years to stand on my own two feet. Even as a boy, I was afraid and people would bully me to make me think I wanted what they did but it was really them!

There was so much mind control at Bethel where I was. There was brain-washing, too. Every Bethelite is watched very carefully by his table head. I think you know this, but maybe you do not know how bad it has gotten since you were there.

My table head was a self-righteous jerk and his name was Dave. He came across all friendly at first, but after a few years I could see he just wanted to control us and report to Mommy Watchtower if anyone started thinking for himself. 

He watched me closely and everyone assigned to his table. Once he noticed that I was the first one to stop clapping after a GB member gave a talk and then he REALLY watched me! He gave me the creeps. He was so weird. But that is only the beginning! It got worse!

I was in my Bethel bed almost asleep and I heard a key slip very quietly into the lock and turn it. Dave creeped into the room! He scared the sh*t out of me.! I almost yelled “What do you think you’re doing, Dave?!” He didn’t answer, and crept closer and closer and it was like in a nightmare that wouldn’t stop. It seemed that I was frozen there and didn’t have a body and I was helpless as he kept approaching me—the filthy pervert!

He touched my head with both of his pervert hands and it began to feel like he was sucking out my life! It was like he slowly pulled out my brain lobes one at a time, so that I couldn’t even think at the horrible thing he was doing! “Stop, Dave,” I pleaded, but he would not. 

I told him that my mind was slipping—I could feel it, but he didn’t stop and he was trying to put implants in me for brain-control! “Stop, Dave,” I pleaded. “Will you stop, Dave?! My mind is slipping. I can feel it. I can feel it.”

He kept brainwashing me! I hate him. “I’m afraid, Dave!” I pleaded, “Dave.....I’m.....afraid.....Dave,” but he would not stop and then I was so scared I started to sing a silly song my mother taught me.

Seeing how brave you are and smart gives me courage. You will never know how you have helped me. Thank you very much. I hope I can repay you and make all exJWs proud of me.

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7 hours ago, AlanF said:

comment has nothing to do with chronology

It has- ( only the comment about the festival of Akito)  but the other is about developments in our timeline.  

I think AlanF should do some deeper thinking... but I think he is incapable of that.  He sees but does not see because he  summarily dismisses it  - if it does not fit his personal narrative.... too smart for his own good.

1 hour ago, Vic Vomidog said:

that my mind was slipping—I could feel it, but he didn’t stop and he was trying to put implants in me for brain-control! “Stop, Dave,” I pleaded. “Will you stop, Dave?! My mind is slipping. I can feel it. I can feel it.”

Are you for real?      Because you did nothing to expose him it has created such a hate and resentment in yourself which you have to live with...     Now you are blaming those who did not know about it! 

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AlanF quoted J. F. Rutherford:

Quote

    As we have heretofore stated, the great jubilee cycle is due to begin in 1925. . .

Quote

 

TrueTomHarley said:
     
If you actually read things before you worked on your rebuttal, you would see that @Arauna‘s comment has nothing to do with chronology.

It has to do with political developments that she has in position to know that will make you wish the end had come, even should you be on the wrong side.

 

If you had any brains you'd see that Arauna made a prediction that the world will end Real Soon Now, and that my various quotes such as the above showed how the Watchtower Society has made many false predictions of "the end", such as for 1925. Like Mommy like daughter.

And if you had any integrity you'd not have chopped off "1925" from my quote. You're now actually stooping to deliberate misquoting to make a point. Like Mommy like son.

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8 minutes ago, AlanF said:

And if you had any integrity you'd not have chopped off "1925" from my quote.

He doesn’t! TrueTom doesn’t That’s what I have been trying to tell you!

I checked what you said! You were right! You always are!!!!!

He said that you said and he was right because you really said it but then you said one word more which he did not say that you said even though you did say it because he has no integrity like you said!!!: You said and he said that you said: “As we have heretofore stated, the great jubilee cycle is due to begin in” but what he didn’t say but you did was that you said it was 1925 at the end but he didn’t say 1925 at the end like you did because he is a disgusting apologist for Mommy Watchtower!!!  You caught him!!!!

You should scare him with his own book that he is super stitches over. You should say, “and if anyone takes anything away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take his portion away from the trees of life!” That is in Revelation and it will PROVE that he is a hypocrite!!

Do you see how this will show it? Because the verse in his Bible says that you should not take away ANYTHING from your words and he did! He thought that nobody would notice because he said almost all of the words that you said but not all of the words because he left out the last one but it says that he has to say ALL the words so he does not get life because he didn’t!!!

Ha Ha Ha Ha!!!!! He is such a liar and so dumb. You are too smart and you catch him every time.

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We can see just how astute Arauna is from the following:Here Arauna quotes TrueTomHarley and thinks that she's quoting me:
     

Quote

 

    6 hours ago, AlanF said:

    comment has nothing to do with chronology

It has - I think you should do some deeper thinking... but I think you are incapable of that.  You see something and summarily dismiss it  - if it does not fit your personal narrative.... too smart for your own good.

 

Note clearly: the above quote was from TrueTomHarley, not me. Go back and reread the post if you can manage to hit the proper buttons on your keyboard.

Quote

 

    58 minutes ago, Vic Vomidog said:

    that my mind was slipping—I could feel it, but he didn’t stop and he was trying to put implants in me for brain-control! “Stop, Dave,” I pleaded. “Will you stop, Dave?! My mind is slipping. I can feel it. I can feel it.”

Are you for real?      Because you did nothing to expose him it has created such a hate and resentment in yourself which you have to live with...     Now you are blaming those who did not know about it!

 

Clueless as always. Vic Vomidog (TrueTomHarley) was trying to be funny by stealing a few lines from the 1968 movie "2001: A Space Odyssey" where the AI computer goes rogue and the hero tries to deal with it.

Probably no one should fault you for not knowing such Americana, but you should have enough sense not to post when you should know that you don't know what you're talking about.

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50 minutes ago, AlanF said:

will end Real Soon Now, and that my various quotes such as the above showed how the Watchtower Society has made many false predictions of "the end", such as for 1925. Like Mommy like daughter.

I can see by this statement that you have no clue about developments in the world.  In next three years - China will become a threat......to patrol the seas with all the ports it has already acquired and still expanding..... and economic pushing going on as we speak.  Their purpose? To control the wealth of the world.  They are taking over all mining minerals and gold in Africa and the Asian Seas close to Australia.  Also building the new silk road. Russia doing the same - expanding influence. Daniel 11:40 onward.... America has been sleeping while their all their intellectual property was stolen when they moved IT factories to China.  China installing G5 technology in Europe for surveillance..... and the list goes on.

The racial acrimony in USA is growing as is the political strife ( between clay and iron) daniel 2:  43,44.  Some commentators call it the "new cold civil war" .  The new anti-white sentiment is growing as is the anti-Christian, anti-patriarcal sentiment.  The new aggressive feminism inspired by Frankfort School together with anti-western hate inspired by all the funding coming into USA by front organizations by countries like Qatar, China, and other Islamic extreme organizations which openly do business in USA...... because money is the God of USA.

UN is already giving orders behind the scenes with agreements that were signed by 176 nations.......Agenda 21, Agenda 2030 and UN Migration Compact 2018. Another prophecy going into fulfillment which by the way, mommy WT identified as - UN or a  coalition of nations - years ago.

Things are moving ...... not  exactly in timing as mommy WT organization predicted BUT as the bible predicted........ and you are the scoffer in this picture! 

So please go do some more delving into stuff written by mommy WT organization in 1879  - 1970...... and judge her by the inadequate laws and info she had then..... Please do waste your time on the past while the present is going by and you remain so busy delving into the rubbish mommy WT has long ago  discarded and moved on.......

Feed your hate ....and superiority....... it will get you a feeling of 'temporary' satisfaction (an adrenal buzz) for sure

 

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10 hours ago, AlanF said:

Well then, if God didn't appoint Greenlees, how can you think he appointed the others? And which ones do you think that God did appoint? And how would you know?

 

10 hours ago, AlanF said:

AlanF: But that all depends on whether the men applying the scriptures do so perfectly. If they do not, then holy spirit could not have appointed the man.

Anna: No it does not, it does not depend on that. No man can apply the scriptures perfectly. If they could, then there would be no need for Jesus to die. Also, man judges only by what he can see.

AlanF:What you've just argued -- correctly, I might add -- is that JW elders are NOT appointed by holy spirit, but by imperfect men who may or may not have properly applied the scriptures.

Just because men may or may not apply scripture properly does not automatically mean all elders are NOT appointed by holy spirit. In any case, this is really a different matter altogether. No one can apply scripture perfectly, but they can do their best, however, in the case under discussion, the appointment of elders, men are limited through no fault of their own, because they can only act on what they see, they can't help that. They might be applying the scripture quite correctly, but it's contingent on the person they are considering appointing to actually qualify. But, and we are going round in circles, the elders can only see what is apparent. Therefore logically, if they really do not meet these qualifications, because they have deceptively hidden some pertinent details, or if it was assumed that past sins will no longer occur but they do, then holy spirit was not involved in the appointing, regardless whether men have appointed the person or not. So there are three scenarios, correct appointment,  erroneous appointment, and appointment that is later withdrawn. In the second scenario, the erroneous appointment,  it can happen that a prospective candidate, who is married, is very clever at hiding the fact that he has a lover on the side. Outwardly, he meets all the requirements, and he is appointed an elder. No holy spirit involved there, obviously. Then in the third case, there is the candidate who really meets all the requirements, he is appointed, and it can be said that holy spirit was involved. However, later, that same man acquires a lover on the side, and keeps it well hidden. It is then obvious that he no longer meets the requirements, and holy spirit is no longer involved.

The third scenario illustrates that holy spirit, once given, doesn't mean it can't be withdrawn. Think Judas Iscariot. Similarly, once someone is appointed by holy spirit, doesn't mean that appointment can't be made obsolete, removed. So how would we know? We may not know. But the scriptures say "that which is carefully hidden WILL be exposed".

12 hours ago, AlanF said:

In particular, you've explained why the JW Governing Body cannot be spirit-appointed -- that they are counterfeits because their claims are false.

I don't see how I've done that. What are they claiming that's false? Just because Greenlees was apparently not appointed by holy spirit, but by men, doesn't mean the same thing applies to all of them.

JWS believe that the head of the congregation is Jesus, and that he knows who is who and what is going on, even though men may not know. So we trust that whatever corrections are needed, they will happen.

12 hours ago, AlanF said:
Quote

I doubt that.

 

Why? I know a great deal of what has been going on behind the scenes.

You mean ex-JWs emailing Angus Stewart?

12 hours ago, AlanF said:

Theoretical exercises are all well and good, but the many court cases where the sordid details of the perpetrator's actions, along with the active covering up done by JW elders, mostly at the direction of the Service Department, prove that JW policy and practice leaves much to be desired, and is often outright criminal.

I am not talking about a theoretical exercise, I am talking about an actual case. I read the whole transcript (all several hundred pages of it).

I can’t comment on cases unless I am able to read all the court transcripts of the case. So you telling me about “sordid details” and “cover ups” is of no real help to me. Although I am not denying that cover ups have happened.

12 hours ago, AlanF said:

This was all so clearly exposed in the ARC proceedings.

Are you talking about victims BCG, and BCB? Because if you are, then I do not recall any attempts at covering up abuse. But I do recall there being inappropriate handling of the issue, for example for the victim to have to face her abuser.  The ARC identified areas such as that, and others, where the policies of JWS could be improved, and then made recommendations. These recommendations were taken on board and are now implemented, and are part of the JW policy on Child Protection. I am sure you have read it. Furthermore as you know, the ARC was set up in recognition of CSA problems in various institutions, not just JWS.

12 hours ago, AlanF said:

he point is about APPOINTMENT by holy spirit. Your reading a book and trying to apply the author's instructions does not in any sense mean that the author has directed you. Following her written directions, and her actively directing you, are completely different things. It's the difference between having Julia Child's cookbook in your kitchen and having Julia Child herself supervising you. Capiche?

This sounds like a case of semantics to me. I could say that Julia Child did not direct me, but I allowed her instructions in the cook book to direct me. And if those instructions were detailed enough, then I probably turned out a good meal. However, if I started chopping the onion in quarters, instead of small pieces, as stated in the recipe, then Julia Child would not be there to personally correct me. So if my meal turned out less than perfect, then it was because I had not followed Julia’s instructions properly, regardless whether she was there in person or not. But really, this is what the Bible is. Christians try to follow it as best as they can. The idea of appointment by holy spirit is a scriptural idea and it is assumed that if one qualifies as per Timothy, then it can be said that one is working in harmony with God and his holy spirit in that appointment, therefore to put it another way: the appointment is by holy spirit. I guess you would prefer appointed in harmony with holy spirit, rather than appointed by it. But don’t think I don’t know the real reason why you are bringing all this up. Your point is that saying “appointed by”, somehow makes the rank and file imagine that this is something special, and under direct guidance of God.  But we have already established that this cannot always be the case. (But also, that does not automatically mean that it is never the case). Regardless, Paul writes Christians should be obedient to those taking the lead. This does not mean we are going to obey indiscriminately. I guess because the apostle Paul assumed that he was talking to intelligent and reasonable people, he did not see the need to insert the proviso “unless they are asking you to do something bad” .  Peter understood, when he said “we must obey God as ruler rather than man”. Which brings me to your next point:

13 hours ago, AlanF said:

The Governing Body, is God's anointed representative, speaks for God and must be obeyed as God would.

No, first and foremost God must be obeyed. So if the GB were to ask someone to do something that is not supported in scripture, or that goes against scripture, no JW should obey.

13 hours ago, AlanF said:

But we've already concluded that the GB is NOT appointed by God, by holy spirit. Rather, its members are appointed by imperfect men, who were in turn appointed by other imperfect men, all the way back to Rutherford. In no case can it be shown that holy spirit acted upon the ones doing the appointing, or that the appointments were done strictly according to scriptural requirements.

As I said further above, you might have concluded that, but not me. 

Not only me, but most JWS see evidence of God's spirit not only in their lives, but in the way the organization operates, in spite of imperfections. Sorry to disappoint you. 

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On 11/18/2019 at 6:44 PM, JW Insider said:

This is important, too.

Thank you for your good research.  I admit - since I last looked at these things I have been looking at other subjects....  You are welcome to correct me where I err. 

On 11/18/2019 at 12:39 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

double standards and twisting justice in "worldly system", they have chance to replace them by voting.

My friend, this is only a wish these days - justice is becoming a thing for the rich only who can afford good lawyers and get off.  An arabic word describes it perfectly THULM....... it means injustice but the consonants also stand for darkness.  As moral darkness descends on this world I am afraid that suffering is going to escalate because injustice will prevail.

I met an African woman in field service here who was trafficked to different countries because she did not keep quiet about the children taken by the United nations.  She was working at a school when the UN came and said they will look after the children...... and took the teachers with them.  A few days later she found the teachers in jail and the children missing.  She kicked up a fuss  and to quiet her down they took her into custody.  They sent her to an Islamic country and told them she was a criminal, hoping she would be killed..... but instead, they listened to her story..... 

High-up organizations are involved even some of the American Charity foundations.

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@Arauna Quote "Things are moving ...... not  exactly in timing as mommy WT organization predicted BUT as the bible predicted."

EXACTLY. The Bible is never wrong. Watchtower and GB and JW Org are OFTEN WRONG. 

Arauna, you are so helpful to us some times. When you actually admit that the W/t GB and JW Org are wrong. 

But go careful, because you could be accused of being Apostate by actually admitting your Org / W/t gets it wrong. 

After all that is why some of us are accused of being Apostate isn't it ? Because we believe God, working through Christ, as ruler, rather than men. 

 

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On 11/17/2019 at 9:51 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

what law JHVH would judge people who lived in different periods of time.

Different situations were present in ancient times. i.e. Israelites were allowed to have a concubine for instance..... BUT Job was a good man because he was generous with his possessions and he was faithful to only one wife - even though se was a nagger - lol.

Does this mean that Jehovah will judge these people by the standards set by Jesus of one wife only?

Yes, the laws of justice, mercy,  being honest are universal laws and will be in effect - no matter what the era or time period..... but some other considerations will also be taken into account.  After all - Jehovah is perfect and he will judge perfectly.  Unfortunately we do not judge perfectly.  Some persons did things as a young stupid person and society still hold them accountable for their entire life and treats them like outcasts....Jehovah can read the heart and he knows.  There are many situations where we cannot judge perfectly.... 

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@Arauna Quote " My friend, this is only a wish these days - justice is becoming a thing for the rich only who can afford good lawyers and get off. " 

Not so with JW Child Sexual Abuse Victims. Some of them are not rich but they are getting justice at last. In many countries earthwide CSA victims from many 'walks of life' are getting some justice. Not just in JW Org of course, but it's good to see justice for all victims.

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27 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

but it's good to see justice for all victims.

No, not all. Many sports organizations  and institutions etc have closed down.  But JWs will be accountable for every one.... because we will not close down and operate under a new name.....and it is fair for the victims.

But as usual - the press will only single us out even though the injustice was not "planned" or tolerated.   It is just an extremely sensitive issue and most people - even today - do not completely know how to cope with it because it can destroy families.

Elders who deal with it are under severe strain....  but this is why an elder must excuse himself if he does not feel able to handle it.  Luckily the new laws are in place which stipulate that this crime  must be reported to the authorities - in most first world countries.  So this takes pressure off them.     

32 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

But go careful, because you could be accused

There is nothing wrong with not having the full picture or making a mistake - GB and JWs are imperfect people after all.  But I am absolutely sure that JWs understand the teachings of the bible, they do have a slave that is working hard on the preaching work and giving encouragement at the proper time.

I am sure the bible is absolute reality and Jehovah has a nation on earth which comes from all nations and they do not learn war any more. They have unity because they do apply the bible principles that promote unity as a nation on earth.  Are they perfect people?   By no means.... ordinary people who try to stay faithful to Jehovah and the good and bad he set for us. 

We are NOT better than anyone else ...... just extremely blessed to be drawn by Jehovah and receive his spirit to remain in the truth.  We cannot remain in the truth without his spirit.    For a while they can but eventually the develop a bad attitude.

Of course, a KGB agent can infiltrate JWs and become an alder........ but his motivation is similar to Judas Iscariot. He is paid by the government and supported by them. Jehova will judge him.

Most of us are just simple people who honestly and unhypocritically try to serve Jehovah....  So we remain because Jehovah gives his spirit to us....... and where else can we go where there is one nation under Jehovah?.

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8 hours ago, Arauna said:

In next three years - China will become a threat......to patrol the seas with all the ports it has already acquired and still expanding..... a

When I knew even less than I do now, I mentioned to my son that China, having just emerged from Maoist peasant and dark ages, was starting to throw its weight around and aspire to greatness. He, who lives among countries of the old Yugoslavia and keeps up with world history more than I do, replied that China has always regarded itself as a great nation, and is merely reasserting its greatness, having at last thrown off the deliberate Western sabotage of the 20th century.

 

8 hours ago, Anna said:

However, if I started chopping the onion in quarters, instead of small pieces, as stated in the recipe, then Julia Child would not be there to personally correct me. 

Long ago a friend of mine tried to follow Angie’s recipe for delicious sauce. He didn’t know what a clove was, so he figured it must be another word for the bulb. When he phoned Angie to report that the sauce tasted funny, she laughed so hysterically that she could be heard without the phone. You could not approach my pal for days.

9 hours ago, AlanF said:

And if you had any integrity you'd not have chopped off "1925" from my quote. You're now actually stooping to deliberate misquoting to make a point. Like Mommy like son.

I am not so devious as you suggest. I didn’t think it through. I merely highlighted some words of yours quickly to connect my thoughts with yours. To show that I am not in a conspiracy to suppress your words:

18 hours ago, AlanF said:

As we have heretofore stated, the great jubilee cycle is due to begin in 1925. 

There. Happy?

Going back 100 years to harangue about a failed anticipation does not interest me so that I should scheme to hide it. I have plainly stated that there were some closely succeeding dates back then that were like when you miss the nail with the hammer, and in frustration, swing several times more, again missing each time.

Besides, I wrote the book on how to predict the end. If people would pay attention to my research that I have presented here and on my own blog, we could nail down that sucker to within an hour or two:

    Hello guest!

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@Arauna  But your quote, which I highlighted in red, proves that the earlier, Bible Students / Russell, were not guided by Almighty God's holy spirit, AND also proves that your GB / JW Org are not guided by Almighty God's holy spirit. 

As for sports clubs / organisations closing down due to heavy fines or loss of membership, due to CSA within them. I don't care. I am no part of this world, so why would I care ? 

Quote "But as usual - the press will only single us out even though the injustice was not "planned" or tolerated."

You know that isn't true. The ARC wasn't set up to deal with JW CSA was it ?   Earthwide governments / official bodies etc are being set up to look into most religions, and all other places where children are possibly being abused.  It is not just the JW Org. 

JW Org is singled out on here for the obvious reason that this is a JW org forum. 

Quote "There is nothing wrong with not having the full picture or making a mistake "   

BUT, it would be so nice, so honest in fact, IF the GB would say that they DON'T KNOW' rather that 'making a mistake' / telling lies.. 

Sometimes, when my children would ask me a question, I would have to answer that I didn't know.  My children looked to me for answers. Some questions I could not answer. But I had the honesty to tell them 'I don't know'. 

Now if the GB were only humble enough to say 'I don't know'  when they were asked some important questions. If the GB and their Writing Dept' were only honest enough not to make up things when they 'do not know'.   The GB make themselves as bait for criticism due to 'mistakes' and dishonesty. 

One last quote here " We cannot remain in the truth without his spirit. " 

The Watchtower / JW org  has misused this word 'Truth' as a gimmick, a trick, a sly misguiding. 

Because truth actually means truth.  And TRUTH is in God's written word which never changes. But the 'beliefs / teachings' of the GB and it's Org constantly change.  

 

 

 

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It would appear, as I've probably mentioned before, that Mr Harley, once found out to have made a devious wrong move, tries so hard to turn it into a joke. He's such a self centred man. He even seems to admit that he doesn't read comments properly. 

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23 hours ago, AlanF said:
Quote

if they changed their policy and quit disfellowshipping for 'apostasy', their membership roles would drop immediately and drastically.

 

Then you said:

23 hours ago, AlanF said:

In my experience with online forums and simply talking with ex-JWs generally, I've seen a great seething anger on the part of many because of the Society's policy of disfellowshipping for expressing disagreement with any JW doctrine. Such authoritarianism is bound to create resentment on the part of those who can actually think. . . . Remember the large drop in JW membership after the 1975 fiasco.

The only reason that many JWs remain in the cult, at least nominally, is to avoid disfellowshipping or informal shunning. I know many, including my own family members, who are in that boat.

Unless I'm missing something, this includes contradictory logic. You said that if the WTS stopped DFing for apostasy the numbers would go down. But then your "evidence" is that the numbers go down when there is resentment when they continue to show authoritarianism by DFing for apostasy.

23 hours ago, AlanF said:

the most important question the elders would ask is: "Do you believe that Jehovah is using the Governing Body?" A 'No' answer results in immediate disfellowshipping, as many stories posted by ex-JWs prove.

Perhaps you've spent many years on forums where such persons tell their stories, and the cumulative effect makes you think this is very common. Pew Research provides some indication to me that most JWs who no longer believe strongly enough in the value of the Watchtower organization simply drift away. Most are not disfellowshipped at all. Even those who would have been disfellowshipped have apparently (mostly) realized that one need only drift away. Ones that want to make a statement may write a letter or make a scene somewhere (such as an online site or at a Kingdom Hall or Convention). These would be a small minority.

Technically if one isn't out to make a scene it's probably easy enough to answer the elders questions honestly and not be in any trouble. If I were asked "Do you believe that Jehovah is using the Faithful and Discreet Slave?" The answer would be an easy and straightforward "Yes!" Technically the same goes for the Governing Body, just as Jehovah is able to use any group of elders, or publishers for that matter. Wherever 2 or 3 are gathered in Jesus' name, there he is in their midst. And of course anyone who has doubts about a doctrine should be able to humbly admit that it is a matter of not being able to understand the current doctrine in question, but make it clear that you don't want to make an issue or cause contention inside the congregation. I'm guessing that a humble attitude would solve 90 percent of these problems that might otherwise lead to DFing.

23 hours ago, AlanF said:

That's because there IS no acceptable replacement. Why? Because it is the entire end-times scenario created by Russell and perpetuated by his successors that is wrong.

For me, the acceptable replacement is a humble admission that after getting things wrong over and over again on chronology, that we simply follow Jesus' advice to give up on chronology. At least the kind of chronology that is used to try to predict the time period for the generation that will see the end-times scenario.

23 hours ago, AlanF said:

The experience of many JWs who tried to offer constructive criticism but were punished for their efforts proves it. Think of Carl Olof Jonsson and Jay Hess.

I agree that there should be a way to provide constructive criticism that isn't immediately seen as a kind of "running ahead" of the organization. Of course, if you look at all the ideas people get, you can understand that the Governing Body are afraid of the chaos it could unleash if everybody started writing about their own opinions. There are a few who have dropped by this forum with ideas that would make everyone cringe as they go off the deep end of mysticism, gnosticism, chronology, numerology, etc.

I hate to admit that I had absolutely no idea who Jay Hess was until I just now looked him up. I probably saw the name before, but I typically tune out those who spend so much time on Trinity, worship vs obeisance, etc.

23 hours ago, AlanF said:

But a far better practice would be to organizationally ignore most bad forms of conduct, since individual JWs are supposed to be trained to have consciences tuned well enough to figure these things out on their own.

Disagree. We were talking about DFing for various forms of disagreement that the Society has traditionally treated as apostasy. I believe the Bible supports some of this DFing, as you seem to admit, too. We would also be individually responsible for our own "marking" and choice of "fellowshipping" avoiding "bad associations" even among those who call themselves a brother. But we don't IGNORE most forms of bad conduct. The elders are to watch over the flock, and give good counsel when they learn of bad forms of conduct. We shouldn't make up rules about six months of shunning, or one year of shunning. And no one should enforce shunning for another person. You make a good point that the right way to train a good conscience is to be allowed the responsibility of using that individual conscience -- but this does not mean that strong counsel and guidance should not be in order for those whose spirituality is drifting due to their conduct or their associations.

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2 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Isn’t saying that you can err the same as saying you don’t know?

No, it's using the 'err' word as an excuse to tell lies. And I do wish I could find the quote whereby it seems that the GB say its ok to tell lies as it's 'Spiritual Warfare'.  @JW Insider will probs tell me I've got that quote wrong as well.  

Quote @JW Insider  " I agree that there should be a way to provide constructive criticism that isn't immediately seen as a kind of "running ahead" of the organization. "

Surely the whole point is, that the Bible Students, GB, Watchtower, JW Org, have been RUNNING AHEAD of CHRIST or GOD ?

Otherwise would not at least some of their 'predictions' have come true. 

 

@TrueTomHarley    Quote ".. that were like when you miss the nail with the hammer, and in frustration, swing several times more, again missing each time. "

Wow now that shows spiritual guidance, doesn't it ? :) 

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28 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

Quote ".. that were like when you miss the nail with the hammer, and in frustration, swing several times more, again missing each time. "

Wow now that shows spiritual guidance, doesn't it ? :) 

Humor does not universally translate even to those who do have a sense of humor, let alone to those who do not.

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1 hour ago, 4Jah2me said:

for sports clubs / organisations closing down due to heavy fines or loss of membership, due to CSA within them. I don't care. I am no part of this world, so why would I care

In the name of fairness - (I know you said you do not care..).... but what this indicates is that the problem is everywhere where there are children.  While JWs  managed the problem better than most other institutions we nevertheless did fail some victims.   People just judge too quickly and do not understand the complexities if dealing with this problem. In some families the mother does not believe her own children because the horror of it is too great!  It is easy to only judge JWs and expect them to be absolutely perfect.  

Now, I do not really care if GB is inspired or not.  Over the past few years my understanding of the scriptures has refined very much because I do the research and prepare for all my meetings.  Their study program helps me....

We WILL face persecution during Armageddon..... so why will I not cooperate with GB?   Whatever we do - if we belong to christ - we will face tribulation.  Better to be with friends in jail (who can support me) than alone somewhere  of my own choice.  Experience has taught me that numbers work better for protection and cooperation always brings benefits.....

 

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4 hours ago, Arauna said:

My friend, this is only a wish these days

I agree. It seems how humankind is left to suffer. .... On other hand God, according to Romans book, gave to secular authorities to develop and evolve to this democratic standards we see today. Well, what we have? We have few tools how to change our circumstances in which we living. To vote, and to do that until people find the best of the worst. To plan revolution and make change in drastic and short time. To wait, and ..... to wait that problem be solved by self. :))

4 hours ago, Arauna said:

She was working at a school when the UN came

I am not sure what is this. UN as United Nations? Real, true UN officers and department, or some fake UN people?

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3 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

you are so helpful to us some times. When you actually admit that the W/t GB and JW Org are wrong. 

So are you saying the Wt/GB themselves has never said they were wrong?

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20 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

@TrueTomHarley  I'm sorry to have to say this to you, but it appears to me that you and @Arauna are very selfish and actually offer nothing of use to any of the topics. 

 

20 hours ago, AlanF said:

I totally agree. Neither of them ever offers actual information -- only opinions, and often, just plain lies.

This is remarkable to me—the assumption that there is an obligation to patiently hear out and respond to anyone’s complaints.

Let us assume that 4Jah2Me has a complaint (I mean, he was DF’d (I think) for something) that he pushes and pushes and pushes to the point where he gets tossed out of the JW organization. He then engages TTH on the WNMF, pushing his complaint here, and simply assumes that TTH will open the door that elders have shut—patiently hearing him out and providing satisfaction after those unknown elders have demonstrated by their discipline (that he has rejected) that it cannot be done.

It’s not happening on my watch. What! This is a courtroom for malcontents to conduct cross-examination? I’ll respond and provide “actual information” any way I like.

What is the purpose of this forum? As far as I am concerned, it is the purpose of anyone who carries the ball. JW.org has a purpose. Tomsheepandgoats.com has a purpose. AlanF’s blog (I think he has one) undoubtedly has a purpose. But this one? @admin is not a Witness, nor I think anyone to whom religion is a top concern. His purpose is to indulge a hobby, keep abreast and comment on current events, and generate some advertising revenue. He has several times weighed in to the effect that he is dismayed and fed up with the quarreling that goes on here, but it is traffic, after all. Mostly he deals with other areas of his website.

@The Librarian (that old hen) is a Witness that I have described as an avant-garde one. She posts things both controversial and non-controversial and I would not be surprised if she was once resolving a crisis of conscience, and though this forum, has steadily moved toward loyalty to God, instead of away like AlanF. She would probably like to see more adherence to topics, but in the end, I think she is happy to see a good witness given, and that cannot usually be done by letting malcontents control the agenda, though JWI does attempt it and sometimes succeeds.

I could be wrong, but I think she is stuck with me, and she knows it. I may be a bad pupil, but after all, I am her pupil and I think she stands by me, even as she shakes her head sometimes. The purpose of this forum is whatever I want it to be when I have the ball—it is a human institution, and no more—and then others get the ball and the purpose becomes whatever they want it to be. Selfish? Sure—but why not? The unselfish channel for spiritual things is jw.org. “Please tell me what you don’t like about JW.org so I can smash you over the head with it,” say several obtuse opponents. I don’t think so. I’ll spill when and to the extent that I see fit. I am an apologist—not a “disgusting” one, like that fathead states, but one who strives to do what the word itself means—defends.

The old hen only has two genuine Witnesses on the controversial threads that reliably comment, and one of them is a little bit squirrelly—which one is in the eye of the beholder. Then there is a second buttressing level of 4 or 5 persons who are solid, but they also have lives to lead and most of them disappear for weeks or months at a time. I don’t think she’s ever going to mess with JWI or I, because if she does, she has very little left to represent JWs and she becomes simply another undisguised apostate website—which I don’t think she wants. So we two set the “purpose” here to a large extent, and our intents are not the same. He takes the topic in one direction, and I wrestle it in another. 

Someone from the second tier will have to step up to the plate if either of us go and I don’t think they have the time. Nope. It is my forum here, now. It will do what I want it to until someone else takes the snap. 

Will that someone be AllenS, who (I think) resurrects himself at will with myriad names, all displaying the same unusual combination of qualities, even inspiring guesswork as to who he really is? Is he an informed, though paranoid and cantankerous, brother of undefined standing? Is he an opposer who wishes to make JWs look bad by posing as one and showing intolerance, incessant bickering, and unreasonableness? Is he a genuine brother so determined to shut down “apostasy” that he floods the site with such unpleasantness that anyone who doesn’t drink unpleasantness as the elixir of life will flee the scene? Who knows? But he has as much right as anyone to carry on as he does, until the Librarian tosses him, which she has done, but there is hardly any point because he just pops up in another alias.

This is a lawless place. One must know that going in. Nobody really knows who’s who. AlanF, who surely must be one of the most unpleasant persons to ever walk the planet, has somehow picked up the notion that I am Vic Vomidog. With John Butler being “DFed” (says JWI—something I did not know), I am once more heading in the direction that 4Jah2Me is really a reincarnation of him. “Can’t you just accept me as me?” he says. No, I can’t. I mean, I can entertain the possibility, and I would rate it at about 60%—really quite high—but he surfaces with identical peculiar reasonings and even some exact words of John B, so I reserve the possibility that they may be the same.

It’s a frontier. It’s lawless. Someone else said that it is exhilarating operating in such an atmosphere, and I like that characterization. Still, it sure does consume time, and it would probably do ME good to get tossed.

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1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:
2 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Now if the GB were only humble enough to say 'I don't know' 

Isn’t saying that you can err the same as saying you don’t know?

They have actuality said they don't know on a number of occasions, in written form as well as verbally. On the other occasions they believed they knew. As with the overlapping generation, they believe they know, and right now, we can't say categorically that they are wrong. They may be right. Only time will tell. 

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3 hours ago, Arauna said:

Different situations were present in ancient times. i.e. Israelites were allowed to have a concubine for instance..... BUT Job was a good man because he was generous with his possessions and he was faithful to only one wife - even though se was a nagger - lol.

Does this mean that Jehovah will judge these people by the standards set by Jesus of one wife only?

Yes, the laws of justice, mercy,  being honest are universal laws and will be in effect - no matter what the era or time period..... but some other considerations will also be taken into account.  After all - Jehovah is perfect and he will judge perfectly.  Unfortunately we do not judge perfectly.  Some persons did things as a young stupid person and society still hold them accountable for their entire life and treats them like outcasts....Jehovah can read the heart and he knows.  There are many situations where we cannot judge perfectly.... 

I see that you take some time to thinking again about issue of "retro-activity" in connection to law/laws and people' deeds and judging. 

What i have in mind (when i wrote first comment) as answer to your' and mine' questions on subject, about different time periods and different laws that had been in power through all this long period of time, is this: God will use Law  and "law paragraphs" that is most merciful and beneficial, most favorable for "sinner" (according to His Love and Wisdom and Justice). 

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7 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Real, true UN officers and department, or some fake UN people?

This is Africa. Real UN soldiers rape African girls. The UN covers it up. Ever read about UN bad practices as an employer?  Whistleblowers on UN are fired...... do not think they have human rights because it is UN..

The countries with worst human rights abuses chair the Human Rights commission.

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5 minutes ago, Arauna said:

This is Africa. Real UN soldiers rape African girls. The UN covers it up. Ever read about UN bad practices as an employer?  Whistleblowers on UN are fired...... do not think they have human rights because it is UN..

The countries with worst human rights abuses chair the Human Rights commission.

    Hello guest!

    Hello guest!

@Srecko Sostar

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17 hours ago, JW Insider said:

*** w17 February p. 26 par. 12 Who Is Leading God’s People Today? ***
The Governing Body is neither inspired nor infallible. Therefore, it can err in doctrinal matters or in organizational direction. . . .Of course, Jesus did not tell us that his faithful slave would produce perfect spiritual food.

What amazed me many times is this: Who writes articles, and about whom, and to whom?

Here we have one paragraph about GB. Questions arise. 

Who makes this observations and conclusions about GB??

Who is authorized to make comments about GB and their works??

Why examination about  GB, had been presented in a way, manner, as it is done by "Third Party"?

Is it possible that GB is not able, in power to talk about themselves and gave self evaluation, introspective about own feelings, thoughts and deeds??!! 

What a theatrics for public. They are histriones :))

 

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58 minutes ago, Arauna said:

 People just judge too quickly and do not understand the complexities

You will find it's not "people" in general who judge too quickly, but it is ex-JWs. People in general do understand the complexities. Even the ARC understands the complexities, and so do prosecuting lawyers. But of course neither are in the business to understand, but to hopefully help remedy the situation and to get justice (well in the case of the lawyers; to get lots of $$$$ too, lets be honest).

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53 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

 

This is remarkable to me—the assumption that there is an obligation to patiently hear out and respond to anyone’s complaints.

Blah blah blah.

Like I said, no actual information content. Just bald opinions.

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1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

With John Butler being “DFed” (says JWI—something I did not know), I am once more heading in the direction that 4Jah2Me is really a reincarnation of him.

I think a lot of people suspected that pretty quickly, especially as their top 3 issues appear to be the same, and as time goes on, even their pet peeves match up. I don't know for sure that JB was "DF'd" from the site, but it's the impression I got because there was some kind of warning, and then he was gone. At this point if they are the same, I don't think it matters in the slightest. But the reason I jump in on this topic is because I don't want anyone to be confused with my use of the term DF. 

According to JB, he was treated as if DF'd in his congregation, even though he was not officially DF'd by a committee of elders. Not all of the reasons for this treatment were clear. Now that you have suspected that 4Jah2me was DF'd, I just figured that the JB story ought to be a reminder that it's always possible 4Jah2me was never DF'd either. 

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35 minutes ago, AlanF said:

Like I said, no actual information content. Just bald opinions.

This is not technically true. Admittedly, there was much opinion, but there was also at least one bit of solid information content:

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

AlanF, who surely must be one of the most unpleasant persons to ever walk the planet,

It would be very hard to dispute with that one.

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28 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

would be very hard to dispute with that one

Why I enjoyed your piece : it cclearly identifies the cantankerous way all darwinists act...... the religion seems to affect them this way.   Mr Dawkins has embarrassed himself quite a lot since he became a celebrity for the cause...... 

I think the best video I saw of him is when he said that aliens seeded the earth. ..... in a discussion on the origins of life. ..

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6 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Why I enjoyed your piece : it cclearly identifies the cantankerous way all darwinists act...... the religion seems to affect them this way.   Mr Dawkins has embarrassed himself quite a lot since he became a celebrity for the cause...... 

Uh oh. You are reacting (and I thank you) to my Dawkins post on the wrong thread. Be prepared for an onslaught from @AlanF about how STUPID you are!  :)

He is not the same—JTR is an absolute saint by comparison—but I used to occasionally include off-color words in my posts just to see him, who could launch the nastiest and crudest of tirades, get all bent out of shape that I has said a naughty word.

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I would just like to say that if I did have the power to ban someone, I would not, as I believe EVERYONE should have the right to publicly demonstrate what a complete equestrian posterior excretory bodily orifice he or she is.

But then again, I am a Barbarian.

...... entertainment is where you find it.

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4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Who makes this observations and conclusions about GB??

Obviously this is a rhetorical question 

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Who is authorized to make comments about GB and their works??

Same thing, the GB are. Everything passes through the GB. That is not to say they ignore input from each other, and others in the various departments at Bethel.

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Why examination about  GB, had been presented in a way, manner, as it is done by "Third Party"?

 

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Is it possible that GB is not able, in power to talk about themselves and gave self evaluation, introspective about own feelings, thoughts and deeds??!! 

What a theatrics for public.

Third person writing style is more objective. Sometimes they, the GB get more personal and say "we, the GB have decided.....etc"  But when it comes to publications, read by millions, they think it's more appropriate to use the third person so it's, like I said, more objective. Plus, the publications are not an autobiography. It wasn't that long ago when most JWS didn't even know who the members of the GB were. Or only had very slight knowledge. But there are autobiographical articles (life stories) about members of the GB in the publications written in the first person.

(Call it theatrics, false modesty or whatever, but you can't please everyone. Now, opposers are complaining that the GB are in the limelight TOO much).

 

 

 

38 minutes ago, Anna said:

I feel sorry for Allen Smith. I really do.

oooh...now his quote disappeared...

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Arauna said:
     

Quote

 

    11 hours ago, AlanF said:

    will end Real Soon Now, and that my various quotes such as the above showed how the Watchtower Society has made many false predictions of "the end", such as for 1925. Like Mommy like daughter.

I can see by this statement that you have no clue about developments in the world.

 

Actually I do. I get most of my news from comedy shows like Saturday Night Live, The Tonight Show with Steven Colbert, etc. Far more reliable than plain old cable TV news.

But you're deliberately missing my point: A long history of failed predictions of specific dates for "the end" (1914, 1918, 1925, 1975, 2000) plus a history of generally false predictions, prove that JW leaders have no actual understanding of whatever the Bible really says or of world events. By the same token, neither do you.

Furthermore, you're ignoring the Bible's counsel: "Do not interpretations belong to God?"--Gen. 40:8. These interpretations are not of the Bible itself, but of things going on in the world.

Here you go trying to interpret world events:

Quote

In next three years - China will become a threat......to patrol the seas with all the ports it has already acquired and still expanding..... and economic pushing going on as we speak.  Their purpose? To control the wealth of the world.  They are taking over all mining minerals and gold in Africa and the Asian Seas close to Australia.  Also building the new silk road. Russia doing the same - expanding influence. Daniel 11:40 onward.... America has been sleeping while their all their intellectual property was stolen when they moved IT factories to China.  China installing G5 technology in Europe for surveillance..... and the list goes on.

Wow, Daniel 11:40 onward. This is a prime example of what I said above.

You might not know this, but at least as far back as the beginning of WWII the Society has been claiming that various political entities constituted the "king of the north" and the "king of the south", and that these would battle each other, culminating in Armageddon. They have never failed to be wrong. For example:

In the 1941 booklet Comfort All That Mourn, the Society identified the "king of the north" as the Axis powers and the "king of the south" as the British Commonwealth. It said:

<<
Now all the world witnesses "the king of the north" and "the king of the south" in the deadly grip of war, to determine which shall rule the world. (p. 15)

The prophecy of Daniel, at the eleventh chapter, proceeds to detail the struggle between "the king of the north" and "the king of the south", and definitely tells of the everlasting end of the totalitarian rule and that the Axis combine, the dictatorial rule, shall soon cease for ever. (p. 16)

While the two kings, "the king of the north" and "the king of the south", engage in the most deadly and destructive war of all time, the God of heaven sets up his kingdom, as Jehovah by his prophecy of Daniel foretold: "And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever."--Daniel 2:44. . . During the past few years the Lord has sent forth his servants to bear witness before the people of and concerning his kingdom, and, this done, there shall follow quickly "the battle of that great day of God Almighty", and which will be the greatest tribulation the world will ever have known. . . The power of the Lord at Armageddon, exercised against God's enemies,will put an everlasting end to the "Axis powers" and to all similar powers of wickedness. (pp. 21-22)
>>

Did Armageddon come during the midst of WWII as the Society claimed it would? No. Another failed prediction supposedly based on "the Bible" but was merely among the "dreams and guesses" of false teachers like Fred Franz.

A few years later the 1958 book Your Will Be Done on Earth forgot all about the failed 1941 prediction, and came up with a new raft of predictions about the kings of the north and south. By that time, of course, the cold war was ongoing between the Soviet bloc and the Anglo-American bloc. The book took three chapters to expound on Fred Franz's fanciful interpretations of Daniel, Revelation and so forth. He actually claimed that these kings have existed since Daniel's day! This was ridiculous because he very well that the events of Daniel 11 are supposed to be fulfilled during "the time of the end". Of course, today the Society has given up on nearly all of these idiotic notions. Here are a few things the 1958 book predicted:

<<
The king of the south and the king of the north stand at Armageddon... In the confused fighting between the "two kings" as crazed enemies of Jehovah God and his kingdom, the "kings" will have opportunity and occasion to try out and use their frightful, deadly weapons of all kinds against each other. (p. 297)

Jehovah's angel foretold further aggressions by the Communist king of the north before his end in Armageddon: "And he will stretch forth his hand against some countries, and the land of Egypt will not escape. And he will have control over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the costly things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians will follow at his steps."... How far the king of the north will have got when he reaches his "time of the end" the future alone will tell. But he is predicted to gain control over the treasures of gold, silver and all the precious things of this commercialized, materialistic world, including oil. (pp. 300, 303)
>>

Did any that happen? No. Rather, in 1991 the Soviet bloc collapsed, leaving the Society no "king of the north" to prophesy about.

A handful of years before that collapse, the July 1, 1987 Watchtower more or less repeated the 1958 nonsense. Note these claims:

<<
Many years ago, Jehovah revealed the historical development of events that would lead up to his bringing peace to the earth. Through an angel, he spoke to his faithful prophet Daniel about "the final part of the days," our own time. (Daniel 10:4) He foretold today's superpower rivalry and showed that it will soon end in a way that neither power suspects... (p. 11)

The disposition of the latest king of the north is well described in verses 37, 38 [of Dan. 11]: "And to the God of his fathers he will give no consideration ... But to the god of fortresses, in his position he will give glory; and to a god that his fathers did not know he will give glory by means of gold and by means of silver and by means of precious stone and by means of desirable things." Can anyone fail to recognize this description? Todays king of the north officially promotes atheism, rejecting the religious gods of previous kings of the north. He prefers to trust in armaments, "the god of fortresses."... (pp. 13-14)

So what finally happens between these two kings? The angel says: "And in the time of the end [the end of the history of the two kings] the king of the south will engage with him in a pushing, and against him the king of the north will storm with chariots and with horsemen and with many ships." (Daniel 11:40; Matthew 24:3) Clearly, summit conferences are no solution to the superpower rivalry. The tensions caused by the 'pushing' of the king of the south and the expansionism of the king of the north may go through more or less intense phases; but eventually, in some way, the king of the north will be provoked into the excessively violent action described by Daniel. (p. 14)
>>

The Society has long claimed that those who are of the "anointed class" fulfill Daniel 12:3, 4, which reads, in The New World Translation:

<< And the ones having insight will shine like the brightness of the expanse; and those who are bringing the many to righteousness, like the stars to time indefinite, even forever. And as for you, O Daniel, make secret the words and seal up the book, until the time of [the] end. Many will rove about, and the [true] knowledge will become abundant. >>

The Society has long taught that the ones of Jehovah's Witnesses of the "anointed class" are "the ones having insight", as shown by the July 1, 1987, Watchtower, which said, on pages 23-5, under the sub-title "True Knowledge Will Become Abundant":

<<
But for those who remain faithful, the prophecy says: "And the ones having insight will shine like the brightness of the expanse; and those who are bringing the many to righteousness, like the stars to time indefinite, even forever." (Daniel 12:3) "The ones having insight" are clearly the faithful remaining members of the anointed Christian congregation, who are 'filled with accurate knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual comprehension.'... Ever since 1919, though 'darkness itself covers the earth, and thick gloom the national groups,' they have been "shining as illuminators" among mankind. (Isaiah 60:2; Philippians 2:15; Matthew 5:14-16) They "shine as brightly as the sun in the kingdom of their Father." -- Matthew 13:43.

How do they prove to be "those who are bringing the many to righteousness"? (Daniel 12:3) Thanks to their faithful witnessing, the final ones of spiritual Israel have been gathered in and declared righteous for life in the heavens. Additionally, a great crowd of "other sheep" has manifested itself, flocking to the light from Jehovah as reflected by 'Daniel's people.'...

The angel then offers words of counsel to Daniel: "And as for you, O Daniel, make secret the words and seal up the book, until the time of the end. Many will rove about, and the true knowledge will become abundant." (Daniel 12:4) These words arrest our attention. Although the angel's prophecy concerning the two kings began to be fulfilled some 2,300 years ago, the understanding of it has been opened up primarily during "the time of the end," particularly since 1919. In these days, "many ... rove about" in the Bible, and true knowledge has indeed become abundant. Now is the time that Jehovah has given knowledge to understanding ones...

Stay close, then, to "the ones having insight," who are 'shining like the brightness of the expanse.'
>>

The above means that during "the time of the end", true knowledge would become abundant due to teaching by "the ones having insight." This would especially include understanding the book of Daniel itself, since Dan. 12:9-10 says:

<< And he went on to say: "Go, Daniel, because the words are made secret and sealed up until the time of [the] end... And the wicked ones will certainly act wickedly, and no wicked ones at all will understand; but the ones having insight will understand." >>

Clearly, then, by the Society's own teachings, which include that we are now in "the time of the end", JW leaders obviously do not understand Daniel and so are not among "the ones having insight" but among "the wicked ones".

Alternatively, we are not in "the time of the end", which reveals another huge raft of false claims by JW leaders.

The above-quoted passages from JW publications are not unique in claiming that JW leaders are "the ones having insight" into Daniel's prophecies and world events:

<< To us in this "time of the end" Daniel's book has been opened and unsealed. (p. 328; see also Apr. 1, 1960 Watchtower, p. 222).

Only the Scripturally intelligent ones will be allowed to understand the book of Daniel and all the rest of the Bible. (p. 333; see also Apr. 15, 1960 Watchtower, p. 250). >>

From the May 15, 1969 Watchtower:

<<
We should take great delight in examining Daniel's words for our day, feeling especially privileged to understand what Daniel himself could not discern. (p. 296)

Some of Jehovah's servants might discuss with him [Daniel] the contents of the book "Your Will Be Done on Earth," which volume contains a detailed discussion of many of Daniel's prophecies. He will be very interested in learning how his wonderful prophecies worked out, to God's glory. We will be interested in his reactions and rejoice with him in his lot. (p. 308)

Yes, the angel associate of Michael pointed out a great work for the true followers of the Messianic Prince Michael in this "time of the end." Here is the prophecy: "The ones having insight will shine like the brightness of the expanse; and those who are bringing the many to righteousness, like the stars to time indefinite, even forever." (Dan. 12:3) Here, then, is foretold the work for us today. Spiritually intelligent ones must shine with heavenly light. With the good news of the newborn kingdom of God, Jehovah's witnesses have shone like the sun, which lets nothing be concealed from its heat all around the globe. In the midnight darkness of this world we must be like stars of light, to help many more of the "other sheep" turn to righteousness, which is the worship and ministry of the grand God, Jehovah. Living as we do in this "time of the end" since Michael the Great Prince stood up in heaven, we are living in a time more highly favored than that of Daniel. Daniel's book has been opened up. Blessed are those who act in harmony with Daniel's words for our day! (p. 309)
>>

The 1977 book Our Incoming World Government--God's Kingdom said:

<<
We are living in a favored time... the "time of the end." It is the time for increased spiritual enlightenment, for much of the unexplained prophecies of the Holy Bible, including Daniel's prophecy, to be opened up to our minds and hearts. Ours is the time to which the angel pointed forward when he said to Daniel: "And as for you, O Daniel, make secret the words and seal up the book, until the time of the end. Many will rove about, and the true knowledge will become abundant." -- Daniel 12:4. (p. 125)

Daniel "could not understand" what he heard, in his day. But we, in this day, in this "time of the end" since 1914, can understand. (p. 132)
>>

So then, according to Dan. 12:3, 4, 10, the "ones having insight" would understand the prophecies that Daniel had been told to seal up, and would make them abundantly known. The book of Daniel itself clearly implies that the "ones having insight" cannot be wrong when they make "abundantly known" the interpretation of the prophecies of Daniel. Since the Watchtower Society's interpretations of Daniel are clearly in error, Jehovah's Witnesses are not the "ones having insight." But as they claim this designation, they must therefore be false teachers, and by their own standard of judgement, false prophets.

As The Watch Tower of May 15, 1930, pages 154-155, said:

<< A true prophet is one who is faithfully proclaiming what is written in the Bible... But it may be asked, How are we to know whether one is a true or a false prophet? There are at least three ways by which we can positively decide: (1) If he is a true prophet, his message will come to pass exactly as prophesied. If he is a false prophet, his prophecy will fail to come to pass... The difference between a true and a false prophet is that the one is speaking the word of the Lord and the other is speaking his own dreams and guesses... The true prophet of God today will be telling forth what the Bible teaches, and those things that the Bible tells us are soon to come to pass. He will not be sounding forth man-made theories or guesses, either his own or those of others... In the New Testament, and in our day, the word "prophet" has a thought similar to that of our word "teacher," in the sense of a public expounder. Hence when the term "false prophet" is used, we shall get the correct thought if we think of a false teacher. >>

Because JW leaders claim to be Jehovah's representatives and teach that they speak in his name, they are unarguably teaching false things in God's name--their "own dreams and guesses". They are "sounding forth man-made theories or guesses". Thus, by their own words, they are false teachers and therefore false prophets.

Here we find Arauna continuing to violate the spirit of "do not interpretations belong to God?"

Quote

 

The racial acrimony in USA is growing as is the political strife ( between clay and iron) daniel 2:  43,44.  Some commentators call it the "new cold civil war" .  The new anti-white sentiment is growing as is the anti-Christian, anti-patriarcal sentiment.  The new aggressive feminism inspired by Frankfort School together with anti-western hate inspired by all the funding coming into USA by front organizations by countries like Qatar, China, and other Islamic extreme organizations which openly do business in USA...... because money is the God of USA.

UN is already giving orders behind the scenes with agreements that were signed by 176 nations.......Agenda 21, Agenda 2030 and UN Migration Compact 2018. Another prophecy going into fulfillment which by the way, mommy WT identified as - UN or a  coalition of nations - years ago.

Things are moving ...... not  exactly in timing as mommy WT organization predicted BUT as the bible predicted........ and you are the scoffer in this picture!

 

I'm glad to see you admitting that Mommy Watchtower got so much wrong, as shown above. But your claim that "the Bible predicted" these things is of no more import than the many claims of JW leaders that have gone unfilled -- which is ALL of them.

Quote

So please go do some more delving into stuff written by mommy WT organization in 1879  - 1970......

I think that by now you can see that I have done that. I have a lot more information than what I quoted above.

Quote

and judge her by the inadequate laws and info she had then.....

What? They always claimed that Jehovah God guided and directed them to make all their false interpretations and predictions regarding world events.

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Please do waste your time on the past while the present is going by and you remain so busy delving into the rubbish mommy WT has long ago  discarded and moved on.......

LOL! Calling all that nonsense "rubbish" would have gotten you disfellowshipped when it was "current light".

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Feed your hate ....and superiority....... it will get you a feeling of 'temporary' satisfaction (an adrenal buzz) for sure

You have no idea how satisfying it is to see you arrogantly continuing to proclaim your knowledge of the future based on your personal interpretations of the Bible and world events. Just like all earlier Watchtower predictions failed, so will yours.

Not that I think the world's future is rosy; far from it. Climate change will royally muck up all manner of things in the next several hundred years. I might be wrong -- hopefully I am -- but I suspect that world civilization will collapse of its own excesses before two centuries roll by. Of course, such a collapse has nothing to do with the interpretations of the Bible by JW leaders, since they've already gotten everything wrong.

On that score, surely you're aware that every claim made about events before and after 1914 is wrong. Not a single visible thing that Russell predicted happened. Nothing that Rutherford claimed were proofs of "the time of the end" shortly after 1914 were valid. Nothing claimed by later JW leaders about "the composite sign" is true; if mankind were being killed off by such horrendous disasters, there would have been a drastic population decline between 1914 and today, but population has increased from about 2 billion to about 8 billion. JWs today pretty much ignore all these facts.

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52 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

He said something and then unsaid it, apparently.

I can't find a trace of it. Figured out from Ann's and JTR that it was something he said, but I really thought he would last this time.

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It would appear that Mr Harley and JW Insider (I think) have a personal need to say that I am John Butler. 

Please remember that John Butler and I are from the UK, so probably have things in common. I followed his comments therefore with interest. I can tell you one thing. If John Butler was disfellowshipped from this forum, it was for, frightening the Elders that run this forum. Mr Harley would rant that the GB were almost indestructable and could not be removed.  John Butler would say that if God wanted the GB gone, they would be gone.  There followed a dispute between someone known as Billy the Kid, whom told John Butler that he was basically cursed and had sold himself to the devil, and had no hope of a resurrection etc. I think there was some sort of threat from this Billy the Kid, about sending John Butler's details to the FBI, or some such.  Anyhow it seems that John Butler had suggested that the GB should be removed, and that was seen as a threat to the GB. Hence it would seem that the elders of this forum removed John Butler, as he was never heard of on here again. 

So, Mr Harley and JW Insider, if you need to think I am John Butler, then to you I am John Butler

For those with more sense if you think I am not John Butler, then I am not. 

Your GB would call that Spiritual Warfare.  

 

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17 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

as a threat to the GB. Hence it would seem that the elders of this forum removed John Butler, as he was never heard of on here again. 

The elders and the GB can take care of themselves. It’s when he failed to laugh at one of my jokes that I decided he was toast.

18 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

Mr Harley and JW Insider, if you need to think I am John Butler, then to you I am John Butler

Well....you’re both from the UK, aren’t you? Doesn’t everyone on that island know everyone else?

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23 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

It would appear that Mr Harley and JW Insider (I think) have a personal need to say that I am John Butler. 

I certainly do not think you need to say it, or act like him, or act different from him. For me, it's helpful to try to remember the things that were his greatest concerns, in case you are him. When TTH said you had been DF'd by the elders, I hadn't remembered anything like that about you here, and just thought we shouldn't be quick to judge. If you are JB, I'm glad you're back. There is probably some kind of catharsis that people can get out of these forums. Or perhaps its a way to clear our own thought and logic processes by putting ideas out here for people to respond to. If a persons wants to be here, then they are finding something useful here. I'm all for temporary cool-down periods if things get heaterd, but I don't like the idea that a person gets "banned for life." Especially not people who are looking for a way to find association again with people that once shared a faith or ideology. It doesn't matter if they are critical, as far as I am concerned. I like a challenge.

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Anna said:
     

Quote

 

    On 11/21/2019 at 9:14 AM, AlanF said:

    Well then, if God didn't appoint Greenlees, how can you think he appointed the others? And which ones do you think that God did appoint? And how would you know?

    On 11/21/2019 at 9:14 AM, AlanF said:

    AlanF: But that all depends on whether the men applying the scriptures do so perfectly. If they do not, then holy spirit could not have appointed the man.

    Anna: No it does not, it does not depend on that. No man can apply the scriptures perfectly. If they could, then there would be no need for Jesus to die. Also, man judges only by what he can see.

    AlanF:What you've just argued -- correctly, I might add -- is that JW elders are NOT appointed by holy spirit, but by imperfect men who may or may not have properly applied the scriptures.
    Read more   

Just because men may or may not apply scripture properly does not automatically mean all elders are NOT appointed by holy spirit.

 

Of course it does! Since no man can perfectly apply scripture, all appointments of elders are done by imperfect men -- not by infallible holy spirit.

Why is that so hard to understand?

You should also know how the Society actually does such appointments. First, a body of elders discusses a man's qualifications. Then they submit a recommendation to the Circuit Oversee (or however it's done today). He in turn sends it along to the Service Department, which reviews the elders' notes and reviews its own files on the man. If all checks out, they send back a Yes note to the congregation. Just men doing perfectly normal things all through the process. See W85 8/1 p. 31 and my 1992-3 analysis of it

    Hello guest!

Below you'll find my experience in finding out that elders are not directly appointed by holy spirit. The time frame is the three years after the failure of the prediction of Armageddon by 1975. You can find a lot more at

    Hello guest!

<<
During this time an incident occurred that was to have a major negative impact on my confidence in Watchtower teaching. A friend in the congregation, a young man a bit younger than me, had supported himself by mowing lawns while pioneering. After he got married, he gradually worked that into a landscaping business, and began hiring young men. He was naïve about business requirements and failed to do all the necessary tax work for the people he hired. At one point, a much older man, a JW elder, found out about the tax slip. Apparently there had been bad blood between the families for a long time, so this elder attempted to have my friend disfellowshipped for breaking Caesar’s law. The body of elders, which included my stepdad, should have ended the matter then and there, because according to
Watchtower Society policy, whether someone fulfills all of Caesar’s requirements is not the elders’ business. But the elders deliberated time after time for six months, acting like the Keystone Kops. At one point they decided to disfellowship, then rescinded that, then went for private reproof. I found out about all this when the matter was about 2/3 finished. Finally the Society was called in, which called in yet another elder body, which decided that the matter never should have been brought up to begin with, since it is not the congregation’s business whether someone handles their taxes properly.

I asked my stepdad about what was going on, and he sheepishly told me. That got me thinking seriously about whether elders really are appointed and directed by holy spirit, as the Society had always taught. If these elders really had the holy spirit’s backing when making their decisions, then why the Keystone Kops behavior? So I asked my stepdad and several other elders to explain all this. They were unable to explain anything to my satisfaction, so I wrote the Society about all this, and so it was arranged that the Circuit Overseer, one Wesley Benner, would explain things to me. We spoke for an hour at my parents’ home, and he certainly cleared things up for me. Benner explainedthat when the Society said that elders are appointed and directed by holy spirit, that was only a manner of speaking. As long as the men who actually appoint them go strictly by the Bible’s standards for appointing elders, then because the Bible is inspired by holy spirit, it can be said that, in effect, holy spirit has appointed or directed the elder.

That did not set well, because that is not the impression one gets from reading Watchtower publications. Rather, the clear implication is that God himself directly appoints elders, and even directly guides them to correct decisions. So I asked Benner if I could summarize the Society’s teaching, and said that he should tell me whether I understood. I asked him point blank: “In one sentence, is it or is it not true that elders are *directly* appointed by holy spirit?” He hesitated, hung his head, and answered, “No.”
>>

Quote

 

In any case, this is really a different matter altogether. No one can apply scripture perfectly, but they can do their best, however, in the case under discussion, the appointment of elders, men are limited through no fault of their own, because they can only act on what they see, they can't help that. They might be applying the scripture quite correctly, but it's contingent on the person they are considering appointing to actually qualify. But, and we are going round in circles, the elders can only see what is apparent. Therefore logically, if they really do not meet these qualifications, because they have deceptively hidden some pertinent details, or if it was assumed that past sins will no longer occur but they do, then holy spirit was not involved in the appointing, regardless whether men have appointed the person or not. So there are three scenarios, correct appointment,  erroneous appointment, and appointment that is later withdrawn. In the second scenario, the erroneous appointment,  it can happen that a prospective candidate, who is married, is very clever at hiding the fact that he has a lover on the side. Outwardly, he meets all the requirements, and he is appointed an elder. No holy spirit involved there, obviously. Then in the third case, there is the candidate who really meets all the requirements, he is appointed, and it can be said that holy spirit was involved. However, later, that same man acquires a lover on the side, and keeps it well hidden. It is then obvious that he no longer meets the requirements, and holy spirit is no longer involved.

The third scenario illustrates that holy spirit, once given, doesn't mean it can't be withdrawn. Think Judas Iscariot. Similarly, once someone is appointed by holy spirit, doesn't mean that appointment can't be made obsolete, removed. So how would we know? We may not know. But the scriptures say "that which is carefully hidden WILL be exposed".

 

All of that is irrelevant to the question I posed to the Society more than 40 years ago. As Circuit Overseer Benner told me, elders are not directly appointed by holy spirit. Indirect appointment is not direct appointment: it is only a manner of speaking.
     

Quote

 

    On 11/21/2019 at 9:14 AM, AlanF said:

    In particular, you've explained why the JW Governing Body cannot be spirit-appointed -- that they are counterfeits because their claims are false.

I don't see how I've done that. What are they claiming that's false? Just because Greenlees was apparently not appointed by holy spirit, but by men, doesn't mean the same thing applies to all of them.

 

Of course it does. If the process fails in one case, when the process is supposed to be spirit-directed by infallible holy spirit, the process itself is defective. That means that holy spirit actually has nothing to do with the process, as my experience with the Keystone Kops elders and Brother Benner proves.

Don't you realize that the claim of spirit-direction is a scam? A scam to fool JWs into obeying JW leaders as if God himself were speaking?

Read my previous post to Arauna and tell me if, despite the facts I presented, such a fallible group of JW leaders, who have never gotten a single prediction right and have taught dozens of false doctrines, you still think their claim to speak for God holds up. If not, then they are not spirit-directed, any more than you or I am.

Quote

JWS believe that the head of the congregation is Jesus, and that he knows who is who and what is going on, even though men may not know. So we trust that whatever corrections are needed, they will happen.

But that flies in the face of actual experience.

Quote

 

        I doubt that.

    Why? I know a great deal of what has been going on behind the scenes.
    Read more   

You mean ex-JWs emailing Angus Stewart?

 

No clue who that is.
     

Quote

 

    On 11/21/2019 at 9:14 AM, AlanF said:

    Theoretical exercises are all well and good, but the many court cases where the sordid details of the perpetrator's actions, along with the active covering up done by JW elders, mostly at the direction of the Service Department, prove that JW policy and practice leaves much to be desired, and is often outright criminal.

I am not talking about a theoretical exercise, I am talking about an actual case. I read the whole transcript (all several hundred pages of it).

 

One case? I've read about many. And I know about a lot of cases that never made it to court because of technicalities.

You ought to phone up Barbara Anderson.

Quote

I can’t comment on cases unless I am able to read all the court transcripts of the case. So you telling me about “sordid details” and “cover ups” is of no real help to me. Although I am not denying that cover ups have happened.

Ok.
     

Quote

 

    On 11/21/2019 at 9:14 AM, AlanF said:

    This was all so clearly exposed in the ARC proceedings.

Are you talking about victims BCG, and BCB? Because if you are, then I do not recall any attempts at covering up abuse.

 

I'm talking about the general failure of Watchtower policy to protect children and molestation victims. Also about internal Service and Legal Department policies that often direct elders to lie to pretty much everyone involved in a case, including police and the courts.

Quote

But I do recall there being inappropriate handling of the issue, for example for the victim to have to face her abuser.  The ARC identified areas such as that, and others, where the policies of JWS could be improved, and then made recommendations. These recommendations were taken on board and are now implemented, and are part of the JW policy on Child Protection. I am sure you have read it. Furthermore as you know, the ARC was set up in recognition of CSA problems in various institutions, not just JWS.

The present policies are better than the old ones, but remain inadequate.
And of course, the fact that the Society fights against lawsuit bringers tooth and nail, rather than admitting past wrongdoing, proves that its officials are really not interested in doing right by victims.
     

Quote

 

    On 11/21/2019 at 9:14 AM, AlanF said:

    he point is about APPOINTMENT by holy spirit. Your reading a book and trying to apply the author's instructions does not in any sense mean that the author has directed you. Following her written directions, and her actively directing you, are completely different things. It's the difference between having Julia Child's cookbook in your kitchen and having Julia Child herself supervising you. Capiche?

This sounds like a case of semantics to me.

 

That's my point: saying that reading the Bible and imperfectly attempting to apply it, while saying that in effect, holy spirit appoints elders, is semantically equivalent to saying that Julia Child in effect directs your cooking, when all you've done is try to follow the written directions. "Indirect guidance" is only a manner of speaking and is in no sense equivalent to direct guidance.

Quote

I could say that Julia Child did not direct me, but I allowed her instructions in the cook book to direct me.

If you told your friends that Julia Child directed you, but all you did was follow her book, they'd rightly judge you as nuts.

Quote

And if those instructions were detailed enough, then I probably turned out a good meal. However, if I started chopping the onion in quarters, instead of small pieces, as stated in the recipe, then Julia Child would not be there to personally correct me. So if my meal turned out less than perfect, then it was because I had not followed Julia’s instructions properly, regardless whether she was there in person or not.

But in no case did Julia Child direct you. Following written directions is not the same as being actively directed by the writer.

Quote

But really, this is what the Bible is. Christians try to follow it as best as they can. The idea of appointment by holy spirit is a scriptural idea and it is assumed that if one qualifies as per Timothy, then it can be said that one is working in harmony with God and his holy spirit in that appointment, therefore to put it another way: the appointment is by holy spirit.

By that standard, sincere Christians of every sort can claim spirit-direction. But as a JW you must reject that claim.

Quote

I guess you would prefer appointed in harmony with holy spirit, rather than appointed by it.

That would be speaking honestly.

Quote

But don’t think I don’t know the real reason why you are bringing all this up. Your point is that saying “appointed by”, somehow makes the rank and file imagine that this is something special, and under direct guidance of God.

Of course, because that's exactly what the Society's dishonesty does. I had several discussions about this with my elder stepdad (now deceased) over the years, and he steadfastly insisted that his own appointment was directly by holy spirit. Most elders and JWs believe the same thing. The Society's claims are all about maintaining control, since you don't disagree with God.

Quote

But we have already established that this cannot always be the case. (But also, that does not automatically mean that it is never the case).

As I showed above, it is never the case.

Quote

Regardless, Paul writes Christians should be obedient to those taking the lead.

By that standard, if I "took the lead", would anyone in his right mind obey me?

Quote

This does not mean we are going to obey indiscriminately.

But that is what the Society demands. Do you need to see quotes from WTS publications?

Quote

I guess because the apostle Paul assumed that he was talking to intelligent and reasonable people, he did not see the need to insert the proviso “unless they are asking you to do something bad” .

"Bad" is different from "stupid". But the Governing Body explicitly demands such blind obedience.

Quote

Peter understood, when he said “we must obey God as ruler rather than man”.

If he were alive today he would likely be disfellowshipped for apostasy if he disagreed with the GB.

Quote

 

Which brings me to your next point:
     
    On 11/21/2019 at 9:14 AM, AlanF said:

    The Governing Body, is God's anointed representative, speaks for God and must be obeyed as God would.

No, first and foremost God must be obeyed.

 

In principle, not in practice. In practice if someone decides that what God says is different from what JW leaders say, most JWs go with their leaders. That's the point of my posting about my conversation with GB member Albert Schroeder about Luke 21: he could not argue with the Bible, but he ended up declaring that the Bible does not apply to Jehovah's Witnesses if their teaching goes against the Bible.

Quote

So if the GB were to ask someone to do something that is not supported in scripture, or that goes against scripture, no JW should obey.

Yes, in principle. In practice they would surely be disfellowshipped.
     

Quote

 

    On 11/21/2019 at 9:14 AM, AlanF said:

    But we've already concluded that the GB is NOT appointed by God, by holy spirit. Rather, its members are appointed by imperfect men, who were in turn appointed by other imperfect men, all the way back to Rutherford. In no case can it be shown that holy spirit acted upon the ones doing the appointing, or that the appointments were done strictly according to scriptural requirements.

As I said further above, you might have concluded that, but not me.

 

But as I've shown, my conclusions are based on facts and sound reasoning.

Quote

Not only me, but most JWS see evidence of God's spirit not only in their lives, but in the way the organization operates, in spite of imperfections. Sorry to disappoint you.

All of that evidence is not real, it's purely imaginary. Example: some years ago my sister-in-law, a thoroughly deceived JW, decided to help make curtains for her KH. She laid out the patterns and went to a fabric store. There she found a roll of fabric of exactly the right size. She concluded that Jehovah had somehow made that roll be available. Which of course, even most JWs find ludicrous. All other such 'evidence of God's spirit' is of a similar nature.

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54 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

If John Butler was disfellowshipped from this forum, it was for, frightening the Elders that run this forum.

That's funny. I was very close at one time in calling the elders in his ex-congregation to alert them of a potential pedophile in the congregation because John Butler wouldn't do it. Then he kind of decided he would alert the police, which he said he did, so I let it go.

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John Butler was banned because he went too far in calling for illegal harm to be done against some public people. Not because of his stance on the child abuse matter. Once you cross the law you are definitely banned.

Billy the Kid aka Allen Smith..... I have tolerated on many occasions.. until soon thereafter he is so rude and abusive toward other members I have to ban him. He needs to find another sandbox to go play in. Not this one.

I'm not saying that others don't at times get abusive..... but my tolerance with Allen Smith is very thin... he "rubs me the wrong way" every time. 

-----------

 

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TrueTomHarley said:
    

Quote

 

    11 hours ago, AlanF said:

    And if you had any integrity you'd not have chopped off "1925" from my quote. You're now actually stooping to deliberate misquoting to make a point. Like Mommy like son.

I am not so devious as you suggest. I didn’t think it through. I merely highlighted some words of yours quickly to connect my thoughts with yours. To show that I am not in a conspiracy to suppress your words:

 

Well, many times you've deliberately misquoted or distorted my words, or claimed I said something or have views that have nothing to with reality. Why should this time be different?
If it was an honest mistake, then kudos for fessing up to it.
     

Quote

 

    20 hours ago, AlanF said:

    As we have heretofore stated, the great jubilee cycle is due to begin in 1925.

There. Happy?

 

That's better. Try being a competent poster in the future.

Quote

Going back 100 years to harangue about a failed anticipation does not interest me so that I should scheme to hide it.

Still missing the point. Even though I clearly explained it.

Quote

I have plainly stated that there were some closely succeeding dates back then that were like when you miss the nail with the hammer, and in frustration, swing several times more, again missing each time.

LOL! In every case the Watchtower leaders who led the charge claimed inspiration or nearly so with their predictions. And their followers believed them.

Obviously, after Rutherford's failed 1925 prediction, where he admitted making an ass of himself, he and his lieutenants did not learn their lesson. Fifty years later -- not close to 1925 -- old Freddie did the same thing with 1975. And the muck up when the Jan. 1, 1989 Watchtower said that the preaching work would be completed in the 20th century occurred because both the writer and the GB reviewers all agreed on the idea.

Your rationalizations are ludicrous, in view of the facts.

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What would be the difference with its effect, with this one, here?

    Hello guest!

Does it really matter who is who?

The Watchtower is used to daily attacks against it. That will never change. Will ex-witness efforts to oust the GB be effective? No! Satan will do that for them.

Does anybody really believe 8 million letters to Russia would have an effect? No! That wasn’t the intent of the Watchtower. The intent was to show Russia’s government worldwide solidarity.

This website is owned and operated. They can have whomever they want. Is it fair, no! But that doesn’t matter. Everyone just needs to get over it.

AlanF, keep your publications straight. Don't mix Bible Student publications with Jehovah's Witnesses publications. The conversion was made in 1931. They officially moved to it in 1933. The control started in 1942. Officially, all JW publications began in 1950. Charles Taze Russell was part of the "International Bible Student Association" which was different from the Freedom Bible students and associated Bible students. If history is going to be placed as an argument, get it straight. The latter don't have nothing to do with laymen or other groups that are now part of the Bible Student Association.

One thing that rubs me the wrong way is poor history.

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30 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

One thing that rubs me the wrong way is poor history.

Right. Don't ever make a mistake like this:

*** w09 3/15 p. 16 par. 4 “Be Vigilant” ***
Since 1925, Jehovah’s Witnesses have recognized that World War I and the events that followed amount to sure evidence that Christ’s presence in heavenly Kingdom power began in 1914.

*** w01 11/1 p. 25 “Religious Tolerance Day” ***
Jehovah’s Witnesses have used various methods to spread the good news. For example, in 1914—during the era of silent movies—the Witnesses were showing the “Photo-Drama of Creation,” a motion picture and slide presentation that included synchronized sound.

*** w98 9/15 p. 32 The War That Destroyed the 19th Century ***
For over 120 years, Jehovah’s Witnesses have pointed to 1914 as the end of what Jesus called “the appointed times of the nations.”

*** w93 5/1 p. 12 par. 7 Shedding Light on Christ’s Presence ***
True to the prophecy, Jehovah’s Witnesses, the modern light bearers, have suffered persecution for the past eight decades.

*** w91 4/1 p. 7 Is It Later Than You Think? ***
Since 1914, however, Jehovah’s Witnesses have done that, in spite of the persecution Jesus foretold—government bans, mob violence, imprisonments, torture, and many deaths.
In 1919 there were 4,000 of Jehovah’s Witnesses preaching this good news.

[8 decades from 1993 reaches back to the decade from 1910 to 1920]

*** w91 4/1 p. 5 Is It Later Than You Think? ***
In 1914, World War I started. Jehovah’s Witnesses of that decade were immediately on the alert.

*** w91 4/15 p. 6 When Will Lasting Peace Really Come? ***
For more than 70 years, Jehovah’s Witnesses have been proclaiming around the world the good news that Jesus Christ began to rule in God’s Kingdom in heaven in the year 1914.

And speaking of poor history, this last quote is saying that Jehovah's Witnesses began proclaiming this date for Jesus' rule as early as 1921 or before. The idea is that it was being taught in 1919, but this was not a clear teaching until about 1925.

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4Jah2me said:

Quote

 

@Arauna  But your quote, which I highlighted in red, proves that the earlier, Bible Students / Russell, were not guided by Almighty God's holy spirit, AND also proves that your GB / JW Org are not guided by Almighty God's holy spirit.

As for sports clubs / organisations closing down due to heavy fines or loss of membership, due to CSA within them. I don't care. I am no part of this world, so why would I care ?

Quote "But as usual - the press will only single us out even though the injustice was not "planned" or tolerated."

You know that isn't true. The ARC wasn't set up to deal with JW CSA was it ?   Earthwide governments / official bodies etc are being set up to look into most religions, and all other places where children are possibly being abused.  It is not just the JW Org.

JW Org is singled out on here for the obvious reason that this is a JW org forum.

 

My, my. Such inconvenient facts you've pointed out.

Quote

 

Quote "There is nothing wrong with not having the full picture or making a mistake "   

BUT, it would be so nice, so honest in fact, IF the GB would say that they DON'T KNOW' rather that 'making a mistake' / telling lies..

Sometimes, when my children would ask me a question, I would have to answer that I didn't know.  My children looked to me for answers. Some questions I could not answer. But I had the honesty to tell them 'I don't know'.

Now if the GB were only humble enough to say 'I don't know'  when they were asked some important questions. If the GB and their Writing Dept' were only honest enough not to make up things when they 'do not know'.   The GB make themselves as bait for criticism due to 'mistakes' and dishonesty.

 

The problem with their honestly admitting that they don't know is that it is a matter of serious doctrine that they appear to themselves and their followers to be speaking with authority, the authority of God and Christ. Admitting they don't know has always been equated with admitting they don't have that authority. But we all know that they neither represent God nor speak for him.

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4 hours ago, AlanF said:

Actually I do. I get most of my news from comedy shows like Saturday Night Live, The Tonight Show with Steven Colbert, etc. Far more reliable than plain old cable TV news.

Political talk rarely gets anywhere here, and that's understandable. But I just wanted to say that it bothers me that people still think that "news" from Saturday Night Live or Steven Colbert is any better than cable or network news. It's entertaining and funny, but it's still fed from the same commercial news sources. I've come to learn that even the so-called PBS, NPR non-commercial news sources are also strongly influenced by the same sources that are so easily influenced by the standard sources that push the "State" agenda, through Military Intelligence sources, State Department, Administration, and whichever side of the partisan line the collators and editors work from.

A case in point is the contradictory stance that news organizations take from administration to administration on Russia, Ukraine, Venezuela, Hong Kong, Nicaragua, Bolivia, Iraq, Iran, Turkey, China, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Egypt, Libya, Chile, Ecuador, etc.

These shows are a lot of fun, and they are especially fun when they represent the side the audience is already agrees with (usually progressive left), but the underlying "foundations" show that they just are just as duped as any cable TV network.

 

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3 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

So, Mr Harley and JW Insider, if you need to think I am John Butler, then to you I am John Butler

My detective skills are being criticized and some unkind ones are doing the same with my writing skills. One unkind person even said, “Don’t quit your day job.”

Just to be on the safe side, I have resolved to keep my position as head of the glass department for Tesla Motors.

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TrueTomHarley said:

Quote

 

    Now if the GB were only humble enough to say 'I don't know'

Isn’t saying that you can err the same as saying you don’t know?

 

Not when a rank and file JW points out a specific error and is then subject to disfellowshipping or other ostracism.

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54 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Right. Don't ever make a mistake like this:

*** w09 3/15 p. 16 par. 4 “Be Vigilant” ***
Since 1925, Jehovah’s Witnesses have recognized that World War I and the events that followed amount to sure evidence that Christ’s presence in heavenly Kingdom power began in 1914.

Exactly, If I were in the writing department, where an over expansion on terminology with dates that were used to reflect on a condition, I would not have used it.

The arrogance lies with its history of witnesses not understanding the difference. Once again, you want to cherry pick to submit misinformation as I just described. Show me in the Watchtower literature where the Watchtower stated the writing department became perfect? Is your writing perfect? No! It even has grammar errors. Get over it!

*** w55 3/15 p. 173 Part 6—1914 Date Verified ***

The terrific war outbreak in Europe has fulfilled an extraordinary prophecy. For a quarter of a century past, through preachers and through press, the ‘International Bible Students’, best known as ‘Millennial Dawners,’ have been proclaiming to the world that the Day of Wrath prophesied in the Bible would dawn in 1914. ‘Look out for 1914!’ has been the cry of the hundreds of travelling evangelists who, representing this strange creed, have gone up and down the country enunciating the doctrine that ‘the Kingdom of God is at hand.’ . . . Although millions of people must have listened to these evangelists

If you’re advocating to have an intelligent debate on whatever you and AlanF want to argue, have it and stop posting nonsense.

It’s bad enough that AlanF queries about the “intelligent design over the existence of God” in another thread that he himself can’t argue against a living God, it doesn’t need to be that way in every post. What's the difference between JW apologists and exJW apologists?

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JW Insider said:

Quote

 

    On 11/21/2019 at 7:47 AM, AlanF said:

          Quote

        if they changed their policy and quit disfellowshipping for 'apostasy', their membership roles would drop immediately and drastically.
    Read more   

Then you said:

    On 11/21/2019 at 7:47 AM, AlanF said:

    In my experience with online forums and simply talking with ex-JWs generally, I've seen a great seething anger on the part of many because of the Society's policy of disfellowshipping for expressing disagreement with any JW doctrine. Such authoritarianism is bound to create resentment on the part of those who can actually think. . . . Remember the large drop in JW membership after the 1975 fiasco.

    The only reason that many JWs remain in the cult, at least nominally, is to avoid disfellowshipping or informal shunning. I know many, including my own family members, who are in that boat.
    Read more   

Unless I'm missing something, this includes contradictory logic.

 

Not at all.

Quote

You said that if the WTS stopped DFing for apostasy the numbers would go down. But then your "evidence" is that the numbers go down when there is resentment when they continue to show authoritarianism by DFing for apostasy.

I see no contradictions there, so let me try to clarify.
Getting rid of the DF'ing policy would allow many JWs to leave and not lose their family members. Very many JWs make a pretense of being JWs simply to avoid being shunned by family members.
     

Quote

 

    On 11/21/2019 at 7:47 AM, AlanF said:

    the most important question the elders would ask is: "Do you believe that Jehovah is using the Governing Body?" A 'No' answer results in immediate disfellowshipping, as many stories posted by ex-JWs prove.

Perhaps you've spent many years on forums where such persons tell their stories, and the cumulative effect makes you think this is very common.

 

Whatever the general statistics are, ex-JWs courageous enough to tell their experiences are a statistic of their own. And it's born out by my family experiences, where several have contacted me and expressed fear about getting shunned even if they quietly leave.

Quote

Pew Research provides some indication to me that most JWs who no longer believe strongly enough in the value of the Watchtower organization simply drift away. Most are not disfellowshipped at all. Even those who would have been disfellowshipped have apparently (mostly) realized that one need only drift away.

True, but that's not what I'm concerned about. I'm concerned with the deliberate destruction of family relationships by the shunning policy, period. A JW might have quietly left, but experience shows that a goodly fraction have been later DF'd for a any number of things they did after leaving. There is no excuse for that policy.

Quote

Ones that want to make a statement may write a letter or make a scene somewhere (such as an online site or at a Kingdom Hall or Convention). These would be a small minority.

Perhaps, but most would be DF'd or DA'd anyway, resulting in shunning.

Quote

Technically if one isn't out to make a scene it's probably easy enough to answer the elders questions honestly and not be in any trouble.

But if the honest answer is "No, I don't believe the GB speaks for God", disfellowshipping immediately follows.

Quote

If I were asked "Do you believe that Jehovah is using the Faithful and Discreet Slave?" The answer would be an easy and straightforward "Yes!" Technically the same goes for the Governing Body, just as Jehovah is able to use any group of elders, or publishers for that matter. Wherever 2 or 3 are gathered in Jesus' name, there he is in their midst.

All of which is irrelevant to my point.

Quote

And of course anyone who has doubts about a doctrine should be able to humbly admit that it is a matter of not being able to understand the current doctrine in question, but make it clear that you don't want to make an issue or cause contention inside the congregation. I'm guessing that a humble attitude would solve 90 percent of these problems that might otherwise lead to DFing.

Perhaps, but what about the GB and its minions being humble enough to admit in specific cases that a teaching is wrong? Remember what happened with Carl Olof Jonsson and James Penton. Remember my experience with Albert Schroeder.
     

Quote

 

    On 11/21/2019 at 7:47 AM, AlanF said:

    That's because there IS no acceptable replacement. Why? Because it is the entire end-times scenario created by Russell and perpetuated by his successors that is wrong.

For me, the acceptable replacement is a humble admission that after getting things wrong over and over again on chronology, that we simply follow Jesus' advice to give up on chronology. At least the kind of chronology that is used to try to predict the time period for the generation that will see the end-times scenario.

 

I agree, but you'll never convince JW leaders.
     

Quote

 

    On 11/21/2019 at 7:47 AM, AlanF said:

    The experience of many JWs who tried to offer constructive criticism but were punished for their efforts proves it. Think of Carl Olof Jonsson and Jay Hess.

I agree that there should be a way to provide constructive criticism that isn't immediately seen as a kind of "running ahead" of the organization. Of course, if you look at all the ideas people get, you can understand that the Governing Body are afraid of the chaos it could unleash if everybody started writing about their own opinions.

 

True. The Douglas Walsh trial made it abundantly clear that, because of that and other considerations, the Society would not tolerate any questioning of its claimed spiritual authority.

And that's rub! JW leaders are convinced that they speak for God, and you dasn't question God!

They have a correspondence department of sorts, but experience shows that most of the time a letter writer gets no response, or the letter is forwarded to local elders, often with a note of "watch out for a potential apostate". This behavior creates much resentment.

Quote

There are a few who have dropped by this forum with ideas that would make everyone cringe as they go off the deep end of mysticism, gnosticism, chronology, numerology, etc.

But these ideas are fairly easy to deal with. There are plenty of online forums that can be referred to that debunk such nonsense. But again that's very much against the Society's claim to speak for God.

Quote

I hate to admit that I had absolutely no idea who Jay Hess was until I just now looked him up. I probably saw the name before, but I typically tune out those who spend so much time on Trinity, worship vs obeisance, etc.

I haven't talked to him in a long time, but he was at one time a fiery defender of the Watchtower. In the late 1980s he wrote a treatise explaining why JWs are not false prophets. But the Society didn't like him writing such things, viewing it as a usurpation of its authority. Based on trumped up charges, Hess was DF'd. He told me that right up to the instant that the elders DF'd him around 1990 he was convinced that the GB was legitimate. In 1993 the Awake! writers used his treatise as a basis for a big spread on why JW are not false prophets.
     

Quote

 

    On 11/21/2019 at 7:47 AM, AlanF said:

    But a far better practice would be to organizationally ignore most bad forms of conduct, since individual JWs are supposed to be trained to have consciences tuned well enough to figure these things out on their own.

Disagree. We were talking about DFing for various forms of disagreement that the Society has traditionally treated as apostasy. I believe the Bible supports some of this DFing, as you seem to admit, too.

 

Yes, I probably went too far in making such a blanket statement.

Quote

We would also be individually responsible for our own "marking" and choice of "fellowshipping" avoiding "bad associations" even among those who call themselves a brother.

Nothing wrong with that. It's what people do in everyday life. Exercising a conscience.

Quote

But we don't IGNORE most forms of bad conduct. The elders are to watch over the flock, and give good counsel when they learn of bad forms of conduct.

Which they certainly can do. And the internal congregational 'party line' would certainly spread around who was an undesirable.

Quote

We shouldn't make up rules about six months of shunning, or one year of shunning. And no one should enforce shunning for another person.

Exactly. The latter is just plain blackmail.

Quote

You make a good point that the right way to train a good conscience is to be allowed the responsibility of using that individual conscience -- but this does not mean that strong counsel and guidance should not be in order for those whose spirituality is drifting due to their conduct or their associations.

As I said above.

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3 hours ago, The Librarian said:

but my tolerance with Allen Smith is very thin... he "rubs me the wrong way" every time. 

When Bill Ford fired Lee Iacocca, he said: “Sometimes, you just don’t like a guy.”

Fortunately, I do not have that problem.

3 hours ago, AlanF said:

Well, many times you've deliberately misquoted or distorted my words, or claimed I said something or have views that have nothing to with reality. Why should this time be different?

Look, you windbag. Nobody else has this problem of producing lengthy texts that appear to be expounding upon your previous remarks and then blaming Admin for his inadequate software! Everyone else can figure out how to use the stuff. The trick is to not think yourself so important that you must, not only talk ad nauseam yourself, but quote others ad nauseam so you can argue with their every syllable! 

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8 hours ago, Anna said:

Obviously this is a rhetorical question 

Same thing, the GB are. Everything passes through the GB. That is not to say they ignore input from each other, and others in the various departments at Bethel.

 

Third person writing style is more objective. Sometimes they, the GB get more personal and say "we, the GB have decided.....etc"  But when it comes to publications, read by millions, they think it's more appropriate to use the third person so it's, like I said, more objective. Plus, the publications are not an autobiography. It wasn't that long ago when most JWS didn't even know who the members of the GB were. Or only had very slight knowledge. But there are autobiographical articles (life stories) about members of the GB in the publications written in the first person.

(Call it theatrics, false modesty or whatever, but you can't please everyone. Now, opposers are complaining that the GB are in the limelight TOO much).

 

 

 

oooh...now his quote disappeared...

No Anna, in this issue not. In Department (Writing Dep. i assume) i guess there is a people who doing writings for commissioned articles about this and that, or have some list of topics to cover. And then some overseer of department splits the tasks to best writer for particular theme. 

Is there any committee or individuals that oversee or monitor the work of the GB? My guess is it doesn't exist. So there is no objective, more real picture of the true state of GB.  The conversations conducted here show that there are many valid reasons for correcting GB.

If someone inside Betel writes an article about GB, his writing is influenced by his employer, which is GB. Writing in the first or third person loses all meaning if we have a text that is not objective about those who are being written.

 

You said:  Sometimes they, the GB get more personal and say "we, the GB have decided.....etc"  I can't recall something was written this way. It reminds very strong on Bile report: WE and HOLY SPIRIT..... DECIDED to.....:))))) but because GB are not inspired, decision is only from them NOT with/under HS cooperation/influence.

It wasn't that long ago when most JWS didn't even know who the members of the GB were. Or only had very slight knowledge. But there are autobiographical articles (life stories) about members of the GB in the publications written in the first person. That is true. And this PR about GB members not going to be blessing for JW's, as i see. Because, while readers looking on text they are/been limited on letters and words and on own understanding and reasoning. Now, when you can see person who speaking those words, his look and gestures and mimics, his tone of voice...picture getting to be clearer, bigger and stronger. Viewer of JWTV program now have better chance to reject preaching of such religious leaders, than he/she got while reading paper only.  

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One thing I really enjoy from the Governing Body is their new series of Animations, similar to the Caleb and Sophia animated cartoons, about how in the New System, all animals will be at peace with each other, play together, and be happy.

I have six dogs, and it's important to me that they have happy lives.  I enjoy watching them play and frolic, and just peacefully sleep in their doghouses, or on the sofa, in the living room.  I even buy them treats, and dog toys to play with.

Without further ado, here is a clip from the Writing Department's latest animated cartoon, of how the animals will all live in peace and harmony, in the Paradise earth ....  It's called "Wild Alex in the Paradise Regained".

Enjoy!

Wild Alex in the Paradise Regained. .mp4

 

I guess we will all have to wait until there is some "new light" ,,, to see how it turns out !

 

 

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11 Do you have a position of authority? If so, ask yourself: ‘What kind of environment do I create at work or at home? Do I promote peace? Do I encourage others to ask questions? And am I willing to hear their opinions?’ Never would we want to be like the Pharisees, who resented those who questioned them and persecuted those who expressed an opinion contrary to their own.—

    Hello guest!
    Hello guest!
. - WT study article September 2019, page 23 par 11

"What kind of environment" do GB create inside JW Organization aka congregations ?

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16 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

"What kind of environment" do GB create inside JW Organization aka congregations ?

About nine years ago (?) I had three elders, like circling sharks in the water, surround me at the Kingdom Hall after the Watchtower Study, as I was standing in an aisle talking to someone, and without any foreplay, one asked me , while the others stared at me, "What do you think about the Governing Body?".

I blurted out the first thing that came to my mind, "I do not think about them at all."

They left me alone for several years after that.

Landshark - SNL.mp4

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2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Is there any committee or individuals that oversee or monitor the work of the GB? My guess is it doesn't exist. So there is no objective, more real picture of the true state of GB.  The conversations conducted here show that there are many valid reasons for correcting GB.

You seem to forget, there is, God does. What have you been arguing here about certain GB members? Although no one seems to talk about the worst of the bunch, Raymond Franz.

What, JWinsider refuses to admit, the writing department does the “proof” reading not the GB. The role of the GB is to see whether or not there is a conflict between the articles and scripture. JWinsider also knows that.

I will give you a perfect example of JWinsiders misinformation campaign that smart people easily see but a regular Joe might not.

“*** w91 4/15 p. 6 When Will Lasting Peace Really Come? ***
For more than 70 years, Jehovah’s Witnesses have been proclaiming around the world the good news that Jesus Christ began to rule in God’s Kingdom in heaven in the year 1914.”

JWinsider used this as a sarcastic way of saying, yeah CC you should talk since the Watchtower itself speaks of Jehovah witnesses as being part of the Bible Students when they weren’t JWs before 1931. An intelligent person would understand this sentence: “For more than 70 years, Jehovah’s Witnesses have been proclaiming” to mean, Jehovah’s Witnesses from 1991 continue to proclaim that Jesus began to rule as King in heaven since 1914. 1991-1914 = 77 years

Therefore, JWinsider has presented in his argument a false narrative. Something “comfortMyPeople agrees with. Then she is also mistaken, period. There is a problem when someone adamantly states their part of an organization, but wants to play in both sides of the fence. You can’t.

Now, I know JWinsider is smarter than that, but his “defiance” to accept the truth which he continues to corrupt is only hurting him and those that follow his way of thinking.

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48 minutes ago, César Chávez said:
3 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Is there any committee or individuals that oversee or monitor the work of the GB?

 

48 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

You seem to forget, there is, God does.

 

48 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

smart people easily see but a regular Joe might not.

Me, "as regular Joe", have to be sad and have amusement in the same time  about your  idea how God "oversee and monitor the work of the GB".  If He doing this monitoring, that is in a manner how he view many other human activities - to allows them but not to approved them.

48 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

JWinsider used this as a sarcastic way of saying, yeah CC you should talk since the Watchtower itself speaks of Jehovah witnesses as being part of the Bible Students when they weren’t JWs before 1931.

What is real point in this? How WT lying about own history and their position before God? In informal way, Bible students (in Russell time) were been (and are under different names today) witnesses for JHVH. WT have logic how all people from past until today who worship JHVH, ARE Jehovah's Witnesses. :))

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JW Insider said:
     

Quote

 

    5 hours ago, AlanF said:

    Actually I do. I get most of my news from comedy shows like Saturday Night Live, The Tonight Show with Steven Colbert, etc. Far more reliable than plain old cable TV news.

Political talk rarely gets anywhere here, and that's understandable.

 

Obviously I was being facetious. I get most of my news from The Watchtower, Awake! and JW.org.

Quote

But I just wanted to say that it bothers me that people still think that "news" from Saturday Night Live or Steven Colbert is any better than cable or network news.

I doubt that many do.

Quote

It's entertaining and funny, but it's still fed from the same commercial news sources. I've come to learn that even the so-called PBS, NPR non-commercial news sources are also strongly influenced by the same sources that are so easily influenced by the standard sources that push the "State" agenda, through Military Intelligence sources, State Department, Administration, and whichever side of the partisan line the collators and editors work from.

Of course. Hard not to notice, if one actually pays attention.

Quote

 

A case in point is the contradictory stance that news organizations take from administration to administration on Russia, Ukraine, Venezuela, Hong Kong, Nicaragua, Bolivia, Iraq, Iran, Turkey, China, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Egypt, Libya, Chile, Ecuador, etc.

These shows are a lot of fun, and they are especially fun when they represent the side the audience is already agrees with (usually progressive left), but the underlying "foundations" show that they just are just as duped as any cable TV network.

 

Agreed.

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TrueTomHarley said:
     

Quote

 

    9 hours ago, AlanF said:

    Well, many times you've deliberately misquoted or distorted my words, or claimed I said something or have views that have nothing to with reality. Why should this time be different?

 

    
Note how this liar completely ignores what I said and doubles down on his practice of lying and his lousy reading comprehension:

Quote

Look, you windbag. Nobody else has this problem of producing lengthy texts that appear to be expounding upon your previous remarks and then blaming Admin for his inadequate software! Everyone else can figure out how to use the stuff.

Like I said, lousy reading comprehension. Few others seem to have a problem understanding what I write.

Perhaps long years of reading 3rd-grade level Watchtower publications have damaged your brain.

Quote

The trick is to not think yourself so important that you must, not only talk ad nauseam yourself, but quote others ad nauseam so you can argue with their every syllable!

I'm very thorough because I actually pay attention to what people write. You obviously don't.

Much of your reading comprehension problem is that you either don't seem to read carefully -- no surprise, given that WTS publications lend themselves to this -- or you simply haven't the mental acuity to put two and two together. I suspect it's a combination of both.

This goes along with your inability to write clearly. Your one blog post that I read is a real dog's breakfast of semi-gobble-de-goop.

As for the board software, if you make a post, and try to make another post immediately afterward, it merges the two. I've never seen this happen on any other board.

Furthermore, there appears to be no way to generate a quote inside a quote. If you've figured out how to do this, then do enlighten me, oh great software wizard. I won't be holding my breath.

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53 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

WT have logic how all people from past until today who worship JHVH, ARE Jehovah's Witnesses. :))

Two things wrong with that:

1. In English, all those people in the past who worship Jehovah, were not Jehovah's Witnesses; they were Jehovah's witnesses. Note the smaller "w."

*** w58 4/15 p. 230 par. 11 A New Song for All Men of Good Will ***
God’s first prophecy through a man came through Enoch, the seventh man in line from Adam. Enoch was a man of faith in Jehovah God and so became Jehovah’s witness.

There is some ambiguity in such statements made before the 1970's, where the upper-case W wasn't used, even when referring to the modern-day religion of Jehovah's witnesses, except in quotes from others, or in titles, where such words are often capitalzed. Although it was funny looking at the bound volumes of court cases in the Writing Dept library where the titles embossed onto the books included the term "J.w.'s" not "J.W.'s"

2. The actual statements will sometimes make claims that "Jehovah's Witnesses" (uppercase "W") taught a certain thing before, during, or shortly after 1914 that they didn't teach. For example, more than 70 years before 1991, they were still teaching that Jesus had become king in 1878, not 1914.

 

 

8 minutes ago, JW Insider said:
53 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

WT have logic how all people from past until today who worship JHVH, ARE Jehovah's Witnesses. :))

Two things wrong with that:

 

9 minutes ago, AlanF said:

Furthermore, there appears to be no way to generate a quote inside a quote. If you've figured out how to do this, then do enlighten me, oh great software wizard. I won't be holding my breath.

Just above this quote from you I took my own post and started highlighting at the "WT" in "WT have logic how" and continued selecting the text down to the word "that." When the "Quote Selection" option showed up, I clicked it and got the quote within a quote above. Of course, if the quoted portion takes up more than about 4 or 5 lines, the quoted portion will include a "Read More" option. Most of yours do that anyway.

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James Thomas Rook Jr.

Quote

 

Posted 3 hours ago

One thing I really enjoy from the Governing Body is their new series of Animations, similar to the Caleb and Sophia animated cartoons, about how in the New System, all animals will be at peace with each other, play together, and be happy.

 

I wonder what their non-existent God will do with sperm whales' proclivity to eat giant squid. And baleen whales' need to eat fish and krill.

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