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All Eight Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses members are now individually named on two New York Child Victims Act case documents


Jack Ryan

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42 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

I'm sorry to say this person is usually brought in to insult and give no substance to any debate when opposers are losing the argument.

Thanks for the compliment - you seem to take offence pretty quickly - which indicates a bit of an ego. I am not "brought in"   ..... I butt in by my own free will..... and I do not need your permission.... lol. 

I just wish to remind you that I do have a different viewpoint to most people here (because I am African and we call a spade a spade)  and while I do not have a debating spirit - I have never seen the need to "win" an argument - I have a viewpoint and an opinion which can enhance understanding from a different perspective - that is all.  If you see no use in it that is your choice. 

And for your accusation about insults - I think you do pretty well at it yourself!

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When speaking with others of a different point of view, it is important to treat them with a modicum of respect. It is important not to taunt and ridicule and insult. Of course, if such is your only o

Good point Srecko. I don't think it's entirely fair to blame the GB for creating a "certain" environment inside congregations though. In fact, (we know everything passes through the GB's hands fo

@Arauna How do you actually know that the GB members  " never personally touched a child (actually too innocent  to comprehend how wicked people can be - too good for this world), " ?  There is i

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JW Insider said:
     

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AlanF said:

    JW Insider mentioned a circuit servant in Australia who was removed and reassigned in the early 1950s. This was Theodore Jaracz, who later became a GB member

@AlanF Haven't seen you around these parts for a while. I see the name @scholar JW pop up in a "Who's Online" box now and it always reminds me of the fact that he seemed to love a 587 debate, wherever he could find one. I always appreciated your knowledge on that topic (although, you also scare me with your evolution/atheism arguments).

 

Why? If they're correct, you shouldn't be afraid of the truth. Tell me what you think of the one I posted earlier today as a new topic.

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But back to the point. I did not know that you knew this much about the Lloyd Barry and Ted Jaracz situation. I was going to start avoiding using so many names but, yes, of course you are talking about the same people.

I know a lot about all this. I have no problem using names, because exposing evildoers is proper for those who love the truth.

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In case you are even more aware of some of these details I would like to run another situation by you, especially since it sounds like you might be aware of details that would clarify or adjust what I think I know. I had just decided earlier today NOT to share this part of the story because of how unbelievable and contrived it might sound. But I'm going to go ahead and put it out here, and I'll take a cue from you and use names this time:

And by the way I don't know if you know C.A. (still alive) but he is the WTS source for most of this particular story, either directly or indirectly.

 

Since I already used his name in my previous post, I'll use it here. I met Ciro back in 1992 on a private Bethel tour hosted by Barbara Anderson. He was enthusiastic about some new information they had dug up about some Bible expositors mentioning 1914 well before Russell did.

But Ciro is only one source for this, and he either doesn't know, or never told Barbara Anderson about the most damning details that I related in my previous posts.

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He is currently living in a residence just off the Bethel campus, and is not doing that well health-wise. I prefer that his name is not spelled out here, because I'm sure he would have preferred that these issues were not widely publicized in a forum such as this.

Again I have no problem with using his name, partly because he was the point man for the Society's involvement with the U.N. He's quite dishonest and deserves to be exposed.

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I embarrassed myself in front of him on my first day at Bethel over 40 years ago, by telling him about a problem with the pay phones in the Bethel lobby. He listened and then shrugged as if he could not have cared less about it. I don't know why it still embarrasses me so much, but it doesn't matter, we got along very well from that point until even long after I left Bethel. He himself got involved in some even more embarrassing situations at Bethel, which I think you know about.

Yes, he wrote those thoroughly disingenuous 1993 Awake! articles pretending that the Society supported U.N. goals in order to qualify to be an Associated NGO for the U.N.

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He was in the Service Department under Miller and Jaracz, and shortly after I left Bethel, he was "promoted" to the Writing Department.

I met Miller several times, since he and my dad were buddies in the Correspondence Dept. in the 1940s.

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But this story is primarily from back in 91 to 92. After the 91 article, brothers and sisters thought it was good to start telling their stories of sexual abuse to the elders, to the Society, and to professional therapists. The situation was very unnerving for the Society and for local elders too, especially when the accused were those they knew and wanted to defend in some way. There was a big new controversy over repressed memories and whether all these accusations could actually be false. Elders in California, and a couple other states were actually starting classes in "repressed memories" and trying to learn what they could about psychiatry. Victims were coming out of the woodwork.

All that led to various discussions in pre-Web ex-JW forums that resulted in the exposure of Greenlees as a possible molester.

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So Brother Jaracz who tried to keep it "anonymous" from the rest of the Service Department, talked to several of the brothers who were known to be on the rise and who had requested or were being considered for Bethel positions in the Service Department. These were Brother Pierce, West, Lett and Beagle, possibly among others. Pierce and Beagle were sent to California to handle circuits that TJ had been in, and West and Lett were assigned to Wisconsin, at least, there might have been other areas and brothers involved too.

I think the name was Biegle. He was the District Overseer for the congregation my wife was in during the 1980s.

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To give you an idea of who these people were, Beagle, Pierce and Lett were called in to work as C.O.s and D.O.s around the NYC area. (West may have been too, but I don't know what happened to him.) This is a commonly known sign that they are being watched and in close communication with the Service Department, and Bethelites "in the know" start guessing at this point that they will soon be called in to Bethel for "top jobs"

I didn't know about Lett and West.

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CA, in fact, predicted when Beagle would come in (he was immediately assigned to the Service Department) and CA guessed in advance that Pierce would go straight to the Governing Body. I think he may have had some inside information.

The two most intimidating were Beagle (six foot six) and Pierce (short but a bulldog with a smile). The intimidation campaign actually produced letters complaining about both of these persons, which was another reason for moving them to NYC. Pierce (from the Salem OR area) had a range of complaints about his "weirdness."

An old accusation from 1991 actually ended up revealing clearly that it was TJ behind the anonymous campaign, as he sent a letter on his own letterhead (his codes) to a sister (a victim's mother) whose daughter was sexually abused by more than one elder since she was young. The mother died, and the daughter is in possession of letters between her mother and the WTS, including at least one from TJ. And based on the content of the letters, she recalled that it was West and Lett who met with her to warn her and her mother that they would be disfellowshipped if they exposed the story.

This part of the story, if true, would provide further confirmation that Lett and West were involved in the same intimidation. I already knew something of Pierce and Beagle because of relatives in California.

Brother Beagle, by the way, (young) died suddenly of a heart problem shortly after he began his assignment in the Service Dept. Brother Lett, of course, is now on the Governing Body and made himself famous to this victim (and exJWs, and probably other victims) by implying that apostate lies were behind the spread of rumors about the WTS covering up child sexual abuse.

 

Jaracz really was a monster, alright. I know that many Bethelites rejoiced when he died.

 

3 hours ago, Anna said:

I have the feeling this evidence could possibly be in the orgs. files that certain lawyers are trying to get their hands on.

Of course it is. I have no doubt that most of the current GB and the GB helpers, as well as many senior Service and Writing Dept. officials know all about it.

César Chávez said:

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Within the ex-witness community, any insider can offer the same talking points.

Not true.

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I don’t condom hearsay.

Generally wise, but not always.

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The one that is laughable is, of course, the Knorr accusation.

Knorr's wife Audrey would disagree. This was all brought out in bits and pieces on various public forums and in private conversations with ex-Bethelites, including an ex-District Overseer who was one of Knorr's proteges in the 1950s. Look up 'Maximus' on the JWD forum.

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To the same extent, Rutherford was accused of homosexuality,

Never heard of that.

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a drunkard, and a womanizer.

Those he was. Firsthand testimony came from some of the Bible Students who broke off from the Society around 1928 after Rutherford ditched most of Russell's cherished teachings. Watchtower officials today do not deny these accusations.

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None of which could be proven. Maybe it was the way he walked. 😏

There is the sort of proof that would hold up in criminal court, and the weight of evidence sort that holds up in civil court. That Rutherford was a drunk would certainly hold up in any court, since the 1940s Moyle case proved it.

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That hasn’t stopped ex-witnesses from bringing it up. If AlanF found such information, it could have been relayed to him by an attending witness.

Whatever that means.

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Arauna said:
     

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    7 hours ago, AlanF said:

    self-righteous JW apologists

Who appointed you as judge?

 

Same one who appointed your Governing Body.

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As for some of the rumours you talk about - some people's sexual "inclinations" - it remains rumour or ugly gossip.

Only to you. Not to me, because I have definite knowledge of the events I've described.

On the other hand you have nothing to dispute any of it.

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Deviant people are everywhere and they can remain undetected - then one has to gather evidence to convict.

Which is what the GB did to convict Leo Greenlees of being a pedophilic, homosexual child molester.

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Getting evidence is the hardest part because it is your word against mine type of situation.  Blah blah blah.

Your worship of the GB is so strong that even if Jesus himself told you that they are not what they claim, you wouldn't believe him. You're one those I had in mind when I mentioned self-righteous JW apologists.  

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What I learnt from the piece you wrote is that there were  GB members who were removed... and some were shunned by others for  domineering behaviour. .....so no-one is too powerful to NOT  be held accountable to some degree.

Wow! You actually learned something!

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There were bad things happening which really  tested the faithful brothers...... which (to me) sounds similar to the times of Israel.   Israel was used  by God but sometimes the conditions were very wicked and trying - especially for the faithful.  Think how depressed Elijah became.  Things written before for our encouragement and endurance.

Except that the Old Testament relates that many miraculous events proved that Elijah and others were really appointed by God to do his bidding. What does the GB offer? Their word. And how valuable is that? The history of Watchtower leaders from before it even existed proves that not a single prediction they made came true, and that their false teachings make a pretty big pile of trash.

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Look to jehovah in these times - not imperfect people.  Fortunately I come from a  family who do not look up to people yet I myself have made bad decisions by taking the wrong brothers too seriously.   BuT it has taught me resilience....  

So are you claiming you don't worship the Governing Body? Don't let your fellows know, or you'll be disfellowshipped for apostasy.

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Sigh....

He’s back. Arguing with every single point, as was his wont, even the ones inconsequential to the thread—like the retort to the unreasonably chatty greeting from JWI with mention of concern of his atheism. 

This is the fellow that The Librarian told me privately, “Please stop arguing with Alan.” She knew what I was then finding out—that under no circumstances will he ever yield the final word. I did stop, and sure enough, he went away.

But he’s back.

Leading off with an insult to Trump, no less, though it has absolutely nothing to do with anything, and will likely fall flat to an apolitical audience, and those not apolitical will divide 50/50, so that he will unnecessarily antagonize some that he is trying to convince. Still he must get it in, and thus reveals—much as I hate to attribute wisdom to @James Thomas Rook Jr. that he has full-blown TDS and identifies with the leftists.

He’s back.

Oozing with contempt for anyone with whom he disagrees: “So are you claiming you don't worship the Governing Body? Don't let your fellows know, or you'll be disfellowshipped for apostasy,” he taunts. 

 

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César Chávez said:
 
 

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If I was to give credence to authors like James Paton, Raymond Franz, and advocates like Barbara Anderson and William Bowen, I would have to believe the author Carl Olof Jonsson.

Quite so. And since they are all truthful (except for Bowen), as opposed to JW leaders and their Writing Department, not believing them is not believing facts.

Do you have any factual, logical reasons not to believe these people? They set forth all manner of indisputable facts. What can you offer?

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I would have to believe the false allegations drawn by questionable Bethel members against Ewart C. Chitty.

How do you know the allegations are false? Did God tell you?

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If the accusation was true. He had homosexual tendencies because he preferred to bunk with lush young male bethelites

No, that's just one piece of evidence. The most solid piece is that the GB saw fit to remove him from the GB and reassign him to duty in the UK. Or do you have information that is more believable than what the GB based their actions on?

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No different from that of Leo K. Greenlees. AlanF makes an absolute claim he was found guilty. I would like to see the proof on that.

Even if Jesus himself gave you that evidence, you most likely would not believe it.

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Then a remark is made on how witnesses will make every attempt to defend the GB when he can’t defend his own allegations with proof. That is laughable.

Two completely different situations. JW apologists, especially on this forum, routinely defend the GB only with emotionally based arguments, not facts and logical reasoning.

As for proof, describe what sort of proof you would accept.

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That gives it a spin with the starting statement “The self-righteous JW apologist” on this forum (are) pitiful. How else can we see such opposition?

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Grammar error with (are) to be understood better with (is) by AlanF

When you try to nitpick you'd better be sure your nitpicks are on the money. Yours are not. What I said was (note the 's' on the end of 'apologists'):

<< The self-righteous JW apologists on this forum are pitiful. >>

A lesson in English (I think this applies in Spanish, too): A word like "apologists" is plural. Plural words are normally accompanied by "are" not "is". Comprende?

Anna said:

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And we know Jesus's Kingdom won't be full of hypocrites.

Well then, it won't have any GB members in it, past or present, who demand virtual worship from JWs. Or the many JW apologists who lie through their teeth to defend Mommy Watchtower.

Back in 1994, in a conversation with GB member Albert Schroeder, I challenged him with a text from Luke that obviously condemned JW end-times teaching. He was blindsided. His defense? "That scripture can't apply to us, because we're Jehovah's people!"

Wow! Defending Watchtower teaching by denying that the Bible applies to JWs. That hypocrisy is endemic to the JW religion.

21 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Sigh....

He’s back. Arguing with every single point, as was his wont, even the ones inconsequential to the thread—like the retort to the unreasonably chatty greeting from JWI with mention of concern of his atheism. 

Blah blah blah blah blah.

LOL! Coming from someone who NEVER contributes anything of value, that's rich!

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22 minutes ago, AlanF said:
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And we know Jesus's Kingdom won't be full of hypocrites.

Well then, it won't have any GB members in it, past or present,

It won't in your opinion, since you're not a believer anyway....

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5 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

This is the fellow that The Librarian told me privately, “Please stop arguing with Alan.” She knew what I was then finding out—that under no circumstances will he ever yield the final word. I did stop, and sure enough, he went away.

Earlier in the day yesterday, someone had just asked me privately about some details that came out of the Lloyd & Ted drama. I wrote up an answer containing most of the information in the post to AlanF. I mentioned in that answer that although I thought my source or sources were excellent, I still thought some of the details seemed a bit contrived and hard to believe.

Later in the same day, AlanF shows up here, and I recalled that he, or persons in his family, had met a lot of these same people. So I copied what I had already written and then tried to edit it quickly. As it turns out I don't think AlanF could add much to it. And I don't get the impression that he's into the kind of quiet, reasonable discussion I was hoping for. 😞

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The thing is what it comes down to is that - is it true or is it alleged? Because when it comes to odd people, people you do not like, and or hate, or have some other reason, there will always be an accusation against them. So, evidence over facts.

15 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I prefer it black, no sugar, no nothing due to the fact that I fast for nearly 2 days.

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