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Information Control: JWs form a barricade at JW Melbourne protest to keep rank and file JW's from seeing "apostate" signs

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Yes. Let's draw a huge amount of attention to that which we don't want you to pay attention to. And let's do it in the most creepy, culty, and weird way as possible, because we can't take criticism and we just don't know how to handle it.

Like the old saying goes... If your beliefs can't stand up to scrutiny, then scrutiny isn't the problem. This barricade makes it crystal clear, loud and clear, that their beliefs can't stand up to scrutiny.

Imagine doing this same thing to them at their cart witnessing and how they would feel?

They would call us inspired by the devil, mentally diseased etc.....

Video of this kind of behavior could be interesting to governments that offer tax breaks, etc.

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The signs read: "love does not shun".   True, the liove of this world with its "practices" of fornication, LGBT does not shun. 

But we do not tolerate unrepentant "pracitisers"  of this kind of love they refer to.  This is my answer and I am a typical rank and file JW who cannot think for myself  according to all the slurs given me on this forum.

I predict this will become a huge issue as all children now at school are taught to accept these practices whereas the bible says we should not " condone" them Romans 1. So the future is bleak regarding morality. When good is bad and bad is good.

We will all in future be persecuted as hateful because of this. The same people who say jehovah was harsh when he killed wayward Jews who participated in false worship and burnt their own children.  There are none as blind as those who do not want to see.

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Protestors against any cause are a common sight today, and they have a way of getting in your face if unregulated. “Why don’t you just pop them one?” said a local cop about some particularly aggressive ones from several years ago. People come to any event because they want to attend that event in peace. They don’t go because they want to be told that they are nuts to be there. 

“Information Control”—give me a break! This is just a page from the David Splane of left-wing anti-cult leaders, Steven Hassan, who has originated the BITE model that his followers are all gaga over—Behavioral, Informational, Thought, and Emotional “control.” Mr Hassan’s latest book is entitled, “The Cult of Trump—A Leading Cult Expert Explains How the President Uses Mind Control.” When you think that half the country has fallen under cult influence, it is strong evidence that you have drunk too much of the Kool-Aid yourself. I, too, find it useful to explain away anyone who disagrees with me as a cult victim.

There have been such corridors at our Regionals, too, in recent years, and I appreciate the efforts to free friends from the harassment. Despite your crying, I can see that sign that you are asserting is blocked, and those attendants do, too—all morning long if they are on both sides of the corridor, as they usually are. Often there are megaphones, too.

Last year, the Regional Convention in Rochester was cancelled with three weeks to go because new management took control of the arena, refused to recognize previous terms, and stonewalled negotiations until the last minute, maybe figuring that groups would feel boxed in by then and just do whatever new terms were stipulated. Disney on Ice also pulled out, as did Monster Truck Rally. A Fortune 500 company did not pull out, but instead sent in their lawyers to enforce the original terms. (The City wanted us to do that, too, I am told—we have very good relations with them & of course, they like the added business for restaurants and hotels—but we declined)

We ended up going to Wilkes-Barre for a convention on the same dates, utilizing an arena that had already hosted several conventions. If it had been a disaster, arranged at the last moment and all, you would have been gloating, Jack, but in fact in went very smoothly, and so it is necessary for you to attribute that to being “cult-like.” That facility is on a large parcel of private property that includes parking, and I confess that I did not cry over the absence of protesters. I even wrote up that event, the Love Never Fails convention. It was tied in to Phoenix for several talks, and one of your allies even factors into the story: 

    Hello guest!

11 hours ago, Jack Ryan said:

Imagine doing this same thing to them at their cart witnessing and how they would feel?

A lineup of 100 slovenly dressed “apostate”guards to seal off a couple of old ladies with a small literature cart? Actually, I would like to see that spectacle, Jack. Why don’t you set that up? Surely that will help you to be seen as rational people.

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@Arauna  you must really have OCD about sex. 

Quote " The signs read: "love does not shun".   True, the liove of this world with its "practices" of fornication, LGBT does not shun. " 

The sign is about emotional family love, nothing to do with immorality. 

Reminds me of those on here taking about 'tight pants tony'...  You JW's seem to have relate everything to sex or to this rotten world that belongs to the devil. 

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    Hello guest!
from
    Hello guest!

Avoiding time on the internet, or the worldly coworkers... now its fully evident that what they are saying is “avoid thinking styles that are contrary to what we teach”. Makes me want to puke.

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25 minutes ago, Jack Ryan said:

now its fully evident that what they are saying is “avoid thinking styles that are contrary to what we teach”. Makes me want to puke.

The way the Bible expresses it is: “Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, turning away from the empty speeches that violate what is holy and from the contradictions of the falsely called “knowledge.”  By making a show of such knowledge, some have deviated from the faith.” 1 Tim 6:20

The verse you are looking for is: “The wisdom of this world is such that God could learn a thing or two from it if he wasn’t so brain-dead.”

Let me know when you find it.

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On 11/29/2019 at 11:14 PM, 4Jah2me said:

sign is about emotional family love, nothing to do with immorality. 

Since most people are shunned for unrepentant  immorality - I think you are missing the point.   Those few who leave for other reasons often end up in "relationships "  or some other habits like drug abuse,  smoking etc.  Many, who are totally unrepentant end up opposing JWs in very deceitful ways, spreading false info about us.

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On 12/1/2019 at 3:35 PM, Arauna said:

Since most people are shunned for unrepentant  immorality - I think you are missing the point.   Those few who leave for other reasons often end up in "relationships "  or some other habits like drug abuse,  smoking etc.  Many, who are totally unrepentant end up opposing JWs in very deceitful ways, spreading false info about us.

It would be wrong of me to tell you what i really think of you, but I'll just say you have a completely warped sense of reality.   VICITMS of  child sexual abuse were THROWN OUT OF THE JW ORG  and then shunned. 

You are totally brainwashed by your GB and it's ORG.

Can you honestly give me a quantity / number, of ex-JWs  that you had known personally, that left the JW Org, and can you give proof of them going on to take drugs, immoral sex, smoking et al ? 

But then you'd probably go on to tell lies just as JW's do. 

By what you have written above, it is you that is 'spreading false info' about others.

At least oposers have some proof of what they say about : Child Sexual Abuse, Lies told in courts, False teachings and false predictions, teachings of men taught as doctrines, etc.... 

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Separate Comment :- 

On 11/30/2019 at 9:18 PM, TrueTomHarley said:

The way the Bible expresses it is: “Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, turning away from the empty speeches that violate what is holy and from the contradictions of the falsely called “knowledge.”  By making a show of such knowledge, some have deviated from the faith.” 1 Tim 6:20

The verse you are looking for is: “The wisdom of this world is such that God could learn a thing or two from it if he wasn’t so brain-dead.”

Let me know when you find it.

Well it looks as if the GB's lawyers have learnt 'the wisdom of this world' by the way they tell lies in courts. And your GB must have learnt the 'wisdom of this world' when they go on about tight pants and masturbation, and accuse people of opposite sex of having committed fornication when there is no proof of it. 

And as for the 'empty speeches' and 'false knowledge', um, we don't have to look too far back in history of the Bible Students and Watchtower / JW Org. Yes your GB have definitely deviated from the faith. 

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On 11/29/2019 at 11:14 PM, 4Jah2me said:

must really have OCD about sex. 

I have OCD about immorality. No problem with sex when in accord with jehovahs principles.  Most shunned people are those who had no respect for Jehovahs standards and were unrepentant about it..... you cannot have your cake and eat it.... 

4 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

wrong of me to tell you what i really think of you, but I'll just say

Warped sense of reality? It goes both ways. ........ I have Jehovahs sense of morality.....what is more real than that?

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45 minutes ago, Arauna said:

I have OCD about immorality. No problem with sex when in accord with jehovahs principles.  Most shunned people are those who had no respect for Jehovahs standards and were unrepentant about it..... you cannot have your cake and eat it.... 

didn't you assume that those people that stood with their signs were unrepentant sinners who support LGBT? That is what you think of them, and you have NO clue as to what they believe or why they are no longer a jw.  You have made yourself judge AND jury of them because they do not subscribe to what YOU believe. 

here is my supporting information:

On 11/27/2019 at 11:54 PM, Arauna said:

The signs read: "love does not shun".   True, the liove of this world with its "practices" of fornication, LGBT does not shun.

 

 

 

 

48 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Most shunned people are those who had no respect for Jehovahs standards and were unrepentant about it.....

How do you even know this? You're not allowed to partake in the process of deciding who is shunned and who is not!  Sounds like you have many assumptions. 

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On 11/28/2019 at 12:54 AM, Arauna said:

The signs read: "love does not shun".   True, the liove of this world with its "practices" of fornication, LGBT does not shun. 

But we do not tolerate unrepentant "pracitisers"  of this kind of love they refer to.  This is my answer and I am a typical rank and file JW who cannot think for myself  according to all the slurs given me on this forum.

Should protesters have more rights than those having a peaceful religious assembly? I think understanding Australia laws would be helpful. Will it change the mindset here? I don’t believe anything said here will accomplish that.

    Hello guest!

A right taken away from totalistic nations like Russia.

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1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

didn't you assume that those people that stood with their signs were unrepentant sinners who support LGBT?

Ask Alan to vent his outrage over LGBT. Go on, ask him.

A bit of generalization from Arauna on this point, but the overall picture she nails.

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14 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Ask Alan to vent his outrage over LGBT. Go on, ask him.

A bit of generalization from Arauna on this point, but the overall picture she nails.

give me a break. You're just as bad as she is then. The assumptions made about people who no longer want to be a part of your beliefs is ridiculous. I don't even think in your own mind that those assumptions are correct, nor do they "paint the picture" as you say.  

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2 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

give me a break. You're just as bad as she is then

There ought be no controversy here. I said that there was some generalization.

Few take traditional sexual morality as seriously as do JWs. That means many of those that leave will not take it so seriously as they once did. In the case of those who go leftist (Alan was the example I cited) they vehemently argue in favor of LGBT rights.

You’re just trying to start a fight, annoyed that your protesters weren’t interviewed by the convention-goers.

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There should be no controversy when it comes to religious beliefs. Gays can no more infringe on Christian ethics, than Christians can impose their beliefs on them. The Judge is the man upstairs.

Does that mean, a good Christian should attend a gay marriage? Why not ask the best good Christian Joel Olsteen. I understand his wife said she would on CNN seen at Piers Morgan Live show.

    Hello guest!

    Hello guest!

Christians will listen to their master, Christ with the books written by Paul, John and Peter while the gay community can be free to express their sexuality. The separation of church and state continues.

The old saying is, I don’t tell you what to do, and you don’t tell me what to do.

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8 hours ago, César Chávez said:

than Christians can impose their beliefs on them. The Judge is the man upstairs.

Does that mean, a good Christian should attend a

True, we are not supposed to force our beliefs on them.....but they will eventually force theirs on us.  This is what ex-jws and the world is blind to..... I firmly believe we will soon go to jail if one refuses to accept the new morality.... which true Christian's  will not bow to.  Part of the mark of the beast - a new world morality.  We will go to prison - the same as those people who are saying Islam is not a religion if peace are now having jail sentences in Europe. Jw's already had fines for small clip about pink ribbon in Europe.... 

Yes, it is part of the extreme politicization of gender...... the new morality. I 

10 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

You're just as bad as she is then.

Yes, I had a gay guy working for me when I was the head of publicity at the national orchestra. I treated him kind when he had problems - which no-one else did. Had discussions with him about the bible and told the truth.  Talked to him about the lifestyle. When he died I could not attend the funeral but afterwards friends told me his parents wanted to see me because their son spoke so highly if my kindness....

But I do not condone this behaviour and I understand that it will eventually be a mark between false Christians and true Christian's..... one that the government may clamp down on.  There is only 2 sides. .... that of jehovahs principles or the world.... which is ruled by Satan. There is still time to make the right choice.

10 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

bit of generalization from Arauna on this point, but the overall picture

You're  absolutely right! These people know nothing of love. When they sing or talk  about love it is mostly about sexual love..... no self-sacrificing love to be found anywhere.  I can see how their minds think..... they have been secularized...... a way of thinking in line with secular humanist thinking. After they leave jehovah they fall into this trap.  And you are right about Mr AlanF too..... he will go along with all ways of secular thinking (LGBT, evolution, ) because he rejects the bible and its morality. He will do "anything " it takes to save his life because he does not think there is accountability beyond this life.   .... so do what is takes to enjoy this life.... only.

 

These humanists find us foolish because we stick to Jehovahs morals..... but this is the difference between fleshly and spiritual thinking

12 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

You're not allowed to partake in the process of deciding who is shunned and who is not! 

This I do know - only people who do not have repentance and have a rebellious spirit are shunned....   mostly a gross sin such as lying, stealing, deceit, sexual immorality.

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The level of thinking ability of the youth today.....  No wonder USA is in such a mess! 

I used to mountain hike and ride motorcycles with my husband ..... I am used to seeing wayward people act out.  But the level of zombie-ism today is unprecedented. 

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28 minutes ago, Arauna said:

The level of thinking ability of the youth today.....  No wonder USA is in such a mess! 

I used to mountain hike and ride motorcycles with my husband ..... I am used to seeing wayward people act out.  But the level of zombie-ism today is unprecedented. 

Especially in the JW community.

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15 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Few take traditional sexual morality as seriously as do JWs.

unsubstantiated and pure speculation. 

 

15 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

annoyed that your protesters weren’t interviewed by the convention-goers

I did not commission them, nor did I even know their agenda. After seeing what they were actually speaking out against, I do support them and agree that the jw practice of shunning is very un-christian. Those jw's who do shun, do so based on assumption of what they think the person has done. This is evident by the posts here by yourself and Arauna.

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5 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

This is evident by the posts here by yourself and Arauna.

Yes everything and anything goes in the world.... and those who are its bedfellows.  

Jehovah is the judge and those who were truly treated unfairly will be compensated by the great compensator himself.  I myself have not always been treated fairly by everyone...... but my endurance has brought me many blessings!

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5 hours ago, Arauna said:

These humanists find us foolish because we stick to Jehovahs morals..... but this is the difference between fleshly and spiritual thinking

I find jw's foolish because they follow the ideas of men, which changes to suit those in the power tower. 

 

5 hours ago, Arauna said:

This I do know - only people who do not have repentance and have a rebellious spirit are shunned....   mostly a gross sin such as lying, stealing, deceit, sexual immorality.

again, you have NO evidence of anything those people, who were there with their signs, did anything you think they did. You also don't have any evidence of what anyone who is df'd has done. What is said from the platform doesn't make it true. 

 

You are playing judge, jury and executioner based on what the octo-pope says to the DO/CO/BOE. .

3 minutes ago, Arauna said:

I myself have not always been treated fairly by everyone.

none of us have, it is the nature of humans. We are only to treat others the way Jesus did. Sometimes our human nature gets in the way, that is why we have forgiveness in the sacrifice and acceptance of what Jesus did for us, all of us.  

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3 hours ago, Arauna said:

Yes everything and anything goes in the world.... and those who are its bedfellows.  

Jehovah is the judge and those who were truly treated unfairly will be compensated by the great compensator himself.  I myself have not always been treated fairly by everyone...... but my endurance has brought me many blessings!

I was treated very unfairly by the jw's in my congregation, so have many others been mistreated by their congregations as well. It's a common trait with most jw's to treat everyone unfairly.

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11 minutes ago, Matthew9969 said:

was treated very unfairly by the jw's in

People are imperfect. I survived my tests..... and my expectations are not too high. People are people - everywhere on earth.... and they do not change overnight.  Neither did I change overnight. I know I am pretty outspoken for a JW.... but people do not see their own faults...... it is always the other's fault..

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13 hours ago, Arauna said:

True, we are not supposed to force our beliefs on them.....but they will eventually force theirs on us.  This is what ex-jws and the world is blind to..... I firmly believe we will soon go to jail if one refuses to accept the new morality.... which true Christian's  will not bow to. 

It has gone beyond ex-witnesses. Satan has devised a perfect scheme. Gay Rights will be the downfall of Christendom. On one hand, they will see the conflict within Christendom which all of God’s children deserve to be treated equally, rather than see how God dealt with his children in the past because of their sinful ways.

Society has lost all morality at this point. Live and let live is once again at the forefront of the ticket to happiness. All we can do is be like Noah and continue to proclaim God’s righteousness and hope people will listen, amid all that Noah endured for preaching God’s words. We have to endure it. If not, the man upstairs will once again place judgement upon his creation.

Do I condone their action? Of course not. My childhood best friend is gay. I have worked with gay people. I don’t accept their invites. I don’t socialize with them. What I do, once in a great while comfort a friend in distress because of ailing parents.

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19 hours ago, César Chávez said:

It has gone beyond ex-witnesses. Satan has devised a perfect scheme. Gay Rights will be the downfall of Christendom. On one hand, they will see the conflict within Christendom which all of God’s children deserve to be treated equally, rather than see how God dealt with his children in the past because of their sinful ways.

Society has lost all morality at this point. Live and let live is once again at the forefront of the ticket to happiness. All we can do is be like Noah and continue to proclaim God’s righteousness and hope people will listen, amid all that Noah endured for preaching God’s words. We have to endure it. If not, the man upstairs will once again place judgement upon his creation.

Do I condone their action? Of course not. My childhood best friend is gay. I have worked with gay people. I don’t accept their invites. I don’t socialize with them. What I do, once in a great while comfort a friend in distress because of ailing parents.

Be careful about speaking falsely of others, even down right lying...remember Jehovah hates liars. Not all churches in Christendom(of which you are a part of as well), endorse of allow homosexuality.

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5 minutes ago, Matthew9969 said:

Not all churches in Christendom(of which you are a part of as well), endorse of allow homosexuality

It is true. They do not. Some are far more vocal about it than Jehovah’s Witnesses. Some froth and crusade over it in realm of the general world, as Jehovah’s Witnesses do not.

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On 12/4/2019 at 7:19 PM, TrueTomHarley said:

It is true. They do not. Some are far more vocal about it than Jehovah’s Witnesses. Some froth and crusade over it in realm of the general world, as Jehovah’s Witnesses do not.

Well if half the GB in the past were Homosexuals it's no wonder the Org wants to keep it quiet :) 

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35 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

Well if half the GB in the past were Homosexuals it's no wonder the Org wants to keep it quiet :) 

I'm pretty sure there was never any accusation concerning more than 3 of them out of 17 or 18 contemporary GB members at the time. (Jaracz, Greenlees, Chitty) I do not believe there was the slightest suspicion upon any of the others at the time, nor any of the current members either. Also, even if a child molestor tends to molest boys rather than girls, it is not the same as homosexuality, and this was the accusation against one of the three. Another was long rumored to be homosexual, and was ALSO accused of having been a child molestor. And the third was a man who had evidently been homosexual, but I never knew of any rumor or accusation of an underage partner.

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That's only about 17% of the Governing Body being homosexual or homosexual child molesters.

I remember a survey the Catholic Church did about 35 years ago, (about the same time period ...) and  among catholic clergy, 20%  were homosexuals (no age preference was stated), 20% were sexually active heterosexuals (no age preference was stated), and 60% were celibate.  My memory may be faulty, as my brain is made mostly of old fat, and I fear the sound of frying bacon.

This proves we are FAR superior to them, and can exult in our smugness.

Of course, that does not count any clergy (which we have repeatedly claimed to be in numerous court cases, demanding clergy-penitent privilege ...) that WE have, below the level of GB.

But then again, since we are all considered Ordained Ministers, that makes our pool over 8 million clergy, even the baptized six year olds.

See?

It all depends on, like President Bill Clinton said during the "Monica Lewinsky" years, "It all depends on what your definition of "is", is."

dt151211.gif

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On 12/3/2019 at 12:48 AM, TrueTomHarley said:

Few take traditional sexual morality as seriously as do JWs

From time to time there is some TV program here, where some young Catholic are proud to say how they respect marriage as Bible talking about. I don't know is it good to talk about people of any religious belongings as more or less "moral" than in some other religious group. 

Compare this two practices: JW dfd members who are sexually immoral. In some other religion they kill them. Does second religious group show more zeal for "purity" inside their religion? Do they act as "god's servant who carry sword and punishing all who brake the law according to authority god gave them"?

When whole World will be coming JW congregation, would/will sinners be dfd or killed? And, who will execute the judgment?  

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11 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I'm pretty sure there was never any accusation concerning more than 3 of them out of 17 or 18 contemporary GB members at the time. (Jaracz, Greenlees, Chitty) I do not believe there was the slightest suspicion upon any of the others at the time, nor any of the current members either. Also, even if a child molestor tends to molest boys rather than girls, it is not the same as homosexuality, and this was the accusation against one of the three. Another was long rumored to be homosexual, and was ALSO accused of having been a child molestor. And the third was a man who had evidently been homosexual, but I never knew of any rumor or accusation of an underage partner.

I tend to think on things as being the tip of an iceberg :) 

And to be boring, this brings us back to that Database they are withholding.  Oh what wonderful information must be in that 20 + year Database. 

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On 12/8/2019 at 7:14 AM, Arauna said:

No surprise there!

there really shouldn't be, especially if you read the whole sentence I wrote. Here, I'll save you the time from searching for it:

I find jw's foolish because they follow the ideas of men, which changes to suit those in the power tower. 

On 12/8/2019 at 7:14 AM, Arauna said:

in cases where we DO have sufficient evidence.

lol,   we......lol

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2 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

changes to suit those in the power tower. 

No surprise because you have a negative opinion.... and I suspect a hate for all authority...in any shape or form

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39 minutes ago, Arauna said:

No surprise because you have a negative opinion.... and I suspect a hate for all authority...in any shape or form

@Arauna  And you have a blanket belief in your GB which you worship and the JW Org which you serve . 

You are soooooooo blind to the real truth that you have to pretend to yourself that anything spoken  against the GB and its Org, is because of hate. You are not intelligent enough to comprehend real truth. 

You do not even reason with anyone.  In case you forget what you have written :- 

Quote  "What I do NOT understand is the logic of the men who hate JWs. "  

Then also quote :- 

"They try to prove that we are impure and allow homeosexuality (when we clearly do not) "

Um, maybe try adding this bit to another topic on this forum which speaks about past GB members being Homosexual.  

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2 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

You are not intelligent enough to comprehend real truth. 

I did not know you have the professional qualification to determine my intelligence? ... as to your opinions..... they do tell a lot about you. 

 

3 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

GB which you worship and the JW Org which you serve . 

Now this is also a fallacy - so I do not think I will waste my time to correct your thinking about whom I worship. Think what you will. You have a right to a silly opinion.

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They are all backstabbers, here—the GB, the COs, the elders, the MSs, the.....really, everybody but me.

But it doesn’t bother me. When I see them sneaking up behind my back to do this (which is always) I have learned to whirl around and take them out with a kick to the head like Chuck Norris.

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4 hours ago, Arauna said:

No surprise because you have a negative opinion.... and I suspect a hate for all authority...in any shape or form

There you go with those pesky assumptions again.  I know this is what you are fed by those in power above you. "All who disagree with what the wt says, must be full of hate and malice towards jws. " It is the classic mantra of those who want to keep you under control.

"Do not look behind the curtain!" - the great Oz. 

I'll tell you what Arauna, if I were here to spread hate, there would be plenty more of it. The fact of the matter is that you and I are very similar, we both want to open each others eyes. 

3 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

You are not intelligent enough to comprehend real truth. 

That's just not true. 

I believe that the majority of people are very much capable, but give their reasoning over to others to decide for them, its easier that way for some.  

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2 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

I know this is what you are fed by those in power above you.... It is the classic mantra of those who want to keep you under control.

There are few things more off-putting than condescension 

2 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

The fact of the matter is that you [Arauna] and I are very similar,

Not at all.

If you negate the upside of something, your sense of proportion goes all awry. There is nothing left to focus on but the downside, and to bang away at it until it seems far more imposing than it truly is. In fact, if you negate the upside, ANY downside becomes intolerable.

You have negated the upside. She has not.

She knows there is a downside. She knows it is a price well worth paying in view of the upside. She knows that any human being or institution crumbles under relentless accusation. Even Job fared poorly at the hands of his three interrogators.

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1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Even Job fared poorly at the hands of his three interrogators.

I don't think he fared "poorly", as after three days of fake comfort anything they had to say was so irrelevant that it was not recorded in Scripture.

They just had nothing to say to contribute to his dire circumstances in a positive way, even though that is supposedly why they were there.

.... a VERY common phenomenon.

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On 12/7/2019 at 4:21 PM, JW Insider said:

I'm pretty sure there was never any accusation concerning more than 3 of them out of 17 or 18 contemporary GB members at the time. (Jaracz, Greenlees, Chitty) I do not believe there was the slightest suspicion upon any of the others at the time, nor any of the current members either.

Does anyone have solid proof of homosexual behavior by these people mentioned? I noticed years ago, the Librarian commented on this subject.

Dear Reader,

    Hello guest!

Brother Ewart Chitty resigned in 1979. The reason was never stated officially. There were only ALLEGATIONS of homosexuality that some still refer to. 

Brother Leo Greenlees resigned in 1984. Again, no official reason offered. The “gossip” ever since around the internet and elsewhere is that it was due to pedophilic practices. No actual reason was ever officially offered.

The reason for such allegations against them is that some point to the article in January 1, 1986 WT article (p. 13), which commented: “Shocking as it is, some who have been prominent in Jehovah’s organization have succumbed to homosexuality and child molesting.”

I don’t believe our

    Hello guest!
touched on these points because it is all based on speculation and conjecture."

It appears some wife swapping was omitted.

*** w86 1/1 p. 13 par. 12 Days Like “the Days of Noah” ***

12 Shocking as it is, even some who have been prominent in Jehovah’s organization have succumbed to immoral practices, including homosexuality, wife swapping, and child molesting. It is to be noted, also, that during the past year, 36,638 individuals had to be disfellowshipped from the Christian congregation, the greater number of them for practicing immorality. Jehovah’s organization must be kept clean!

It should be noted, the article above was NOT specifically speaking about the GB individuals mentioned, but the nearly 37,000 individuals that were disfellowshipped for whatever reason such as immoral behavior.

Therefore, it is as the Librarian mentioned, just speculation and conjecture if proof is not provided to such allegations.

1975-Ewart C. Chitty of London, England, who is secretary-treasurer of the International Bible Students Association. Leo K. Greenlees was already a GB member when Chitty was appointed to the body.

Simply relying on an “anonymous” blogger that presented no evidence but rather compiled ex-witness information (speculation) from apostate sites is not evidence.

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I tell you what all of us MIGHT do to get the straight scoop ... the low down .. the bird's eye view, and the real nitty- gritty on this caper.

I have done what I am recommending to you, here and now ... several times in my life, on different issues of serious and pressing concern.

EACH of us should write a letter to "The Collective Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses," in Warwick, New York, at World Headquarters of Jehovah's Witnesses, with a print out of this entire thread, and in the cover letter ask these specific questions, in such a manner that they can be answered in a simple "YES", or "NO"., as well as in narrative form.

They should have no legal objections to telling the complete and honest, and absolute truth in any reply letter, as the principals are dead, and legally, the dead cannot be slandered, libeled,  or caused any harm.  Besides, there is a clear and present and over- riding reason to tell you the complete truth, and  that is:

1.)    As men of integrity, their oath to Jehovah God demands that they tell the truth, when asked, and

2.)    it will inspire confidence in any fact that the Governing Body DOES tell the truth, which currently, and for many years now, has been in legitimate and serious question.

And there are certainly many other reasons  that the average ten JWs could list, if they cared about the real history of how we got to be where we are today, and just basically want to know TRUTH for the sake of truth.

After the letter is composed, written, and assembled with reference material, three complete copies should be made,

1. A copy to be kept at home as a permanent record, and

2.) The original sent by certified mail, return receipt requested to the Collective Governing Body at Watchtower Headquarters, and

3.)    A copy sent by certified mail, return receipt requested, to the Collective Body of Elders at your Kingdom Hall, if you are one of Jehovah's Witnesses, or if not, to the Religion Editor of the local newspaper, and

4.)   A copy to be kept unopened, sent by certified mail, return receipt requested, to yourself.

Enclose, whether you are a JW or not, a personal check for $25.00 as a donation.

Now, sit back and wait , for in about three months, you will have all your questions answered.

Over the years, I have actually done this several times for various issues that concerned me, ( before the Society relocated to Warlick, New York) .

Results may vary, but at least you will know, that the GB are honest men of integrity, and devoted to TRUTH.

..... or not.

Total cost ....  a full day of your time, and about $45 ... as they WILL cash the check.

dt191210.gif

 

 

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4 hours ago, Tom Henry said:

no official reason offered

 

2 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

1.)    As men of integrity, their oath to Jehovah God demands that they tell the truth, when asked,

I think how two things must be destroyed to dust before.

1) Priest,Clergy,Lawyer,Client - penitent privilege  

2) Spiritual Warfare

.....and then, maybe, we get the answers :)

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7 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I have done what I am recommending to you, here and now ... several times in my life, on different issues of serious and pressing concern.

Are you any relation to the James Rookus of history who wrote to the older men in late first-century Jerusalem demanding, as they were MEN of HONOR, that they answer:

1 WHY they did not address the INJUSTICES highlighted by the WHISTLEBLOWERS that Jude wrote about?

2 HOW did they account for their NEGLIGENT track record so that John could “rejoice” that SOME of the children are walking in the truth. Why did they not shepherd better so that ALL of them would do so?

3. WHY did The PROMOTE the guy who KNUCKLED UNDER when Jews showed up and disapproved of him hanging out with Gentile Christians and who had a TRACK RECORD of knuckling under—even THREE TIMES on a certain evening?

And that’s just for starters.

7 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

it will inspire confidence in any fact that the Governing Body DOES tell the truth,

Nah. If it is not the answer their enemies expect, they will just assume that they are lying.

 

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There is a VERY simple way to find out the REAL answers to all your suppositions and questions, TTH ..... and that is you personally actually DO write the Collective Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses, as I have outlined ... and in about three months solid, hard facts will be available for you to make a rational argument for defending the indefensible, with cutesey, meaningless dialog.

Be a sport ... get the forms from the Post Office for certified mail, and return receipt (the cardboard green card), write a check, compose your letter, copy this thread in its entirety, and fire that torpedo into the dark, and see what lights up!

Then you will have a FACTUAL basis for what is the actual reality of the situation.

.... and as a side thought ... your cutesy suppositions are not THAT cute.

 

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1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

Jude did not write about whistleblowers. Jude WAS the whistleblower!

So am I.

So are you.

So is JTR

So is everyone here.

The point is that “whistleblower” is in the eye of the beholder. No villain ever says: “I am the villain.” Always they are victims, unappreciated reformers, or “whistleblowers.”

Jude says they, “indulge in dreams, defile flesh, despise discipline, speak abusively of glorious ones.” (vs 8 ) Do you think that they would have described themselves that way? Or would they not attribute their departure to finally having opened their eyes?

Jude says they were “rocks hidden below water at your love feasts while they feast with you, shepherds who feed themselves without fear; waterless clouds carried here and there by the wind; fruitless trees in late autumn, having died twice and having been uprooted; wild waves of the sea that cast up the foam of their own shame; stars with no set course, for which the blackest darkness stands reserved forever.” (12-13) 

Do you think they would have described themselves that way? Or would they not have complained about “ad hominem” attacks and how their real, legitimate concerns were being ignored—just like malcontents do here?

Yes, I know that Jude was the real whistleblower. I was playing devil’s advocate.

And I hope that I do not get another disappointed chastisement from Witness as to how sad she finds it that I am now advocating for the devil.

 

1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

and as a side thought ... your cutesy suppositions are not THAT cute.

They are. I understated their cuteness. ‘Cute,’ too, is in the eye of the beholder, and in many respects, you are blind as a bat.

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24 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

So is everyone here.

Don't include everyone with this fallacy. Not everyone here is a trouble maker. Some of us understand and support scripture. That some of us can speak of it without getting into trouble, that's a different story.

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12 hours ago, Tom Henry said:

Does anyone have solid proof of homosexual behavior by these people mentioned? I noticed years ago, the Librarian commented on this subject.

 

Dear Reader,

 

    Hello guest!

 

Brother Ewart Chitty resigned in 1979. The reason was never stated officially. There were only ALLEGATIONS of homosexuality that some still refer to. 

 

Brother Leo Greenlees resigned in 1984. Again, no official reason offered. The “gossip” ever since around the internet and elsewhere is that it was due to pedophilic practices. No actual reason was ever officially offered.

 

The reason for such allegations against them is that some point to the article in January 1, 1986 WT article (p. 13), which commented: “Shocking as it is, some who have been prominent in Jehovah’s organization have succumbed to homosexuality and child molesting.”

 

I don’t believe our

    Hello guest!
touched on these points because it is all based on speculation and conjecture."

 

It appears some wife swapping was omitted.

 

*** w86 1/1 p. 13 par. 12 Days Like “the Days of Noah” ***

 

 

12 Shocking as it is, even some who have been prominent in Jehovah’s organization have succumbed to immoral practices, including homosexuality, wife swapping, and child molesting. It is to be noted, also, that during the past year, 36,638 individuals had to be disfellowshipped from the Christian congregation, the greater number of them for practicing immorality. Jehovah’s organization must be kept clean!

 

 

It should be noted, the article above was NOT specifically speaking about the GB individuals mentioned, but the nearly 37,000 individuals that were disfellowshipped for whatever reason such as immoral behavior.

 

Therefore, it is as the Librarian mentioned, just speculation and conjecture if proof is not provided to such allegations.

 

1975-Ewart C. Chitty of London, England, who is secretary-treasurer of the International Bible Students Association. Leo K. Greenlees was already a GB member when Chitty was appointed to the body.

 

Simply relying on an “anonymous” blogger that presented no evidence but rather compiled ex-witness information (speculation) from apostate sites is not evidence.

 

Yes but everything was kept 'in house' back then. And still is probably. 

The American courts / authorities can't even get their hands on the 20 + year Child Sexual Abuse database which should have been handed over years ago. So who knows what's hidden in there. 

There are probably documents hidden away that go back 70 + years. Didn't Australia have info from 50 years ago that the ARC used ? I would think USA info would go back further. 

It would be wonderful to see the whole Watchtower / JW Org / GB opened up wide to the public, in the public interest. Then, and only then, could people make a sensible judgement as to if they want to be part of that Org. 

You may think I want the JW Org / Watchtower Soc' to crash, but in truth I don't. I just want it made clean. As @TrueTomHarley says (100 times a day) that some folks are only looking at the downside of the GB and it's Org. BUT Genuine people will be trying to find TRUTH within the muck, that's all. 

And @TrueTomHarley also said "She knows there is a downside. She knows it is a price well worth paying in view of the upside... "

To quote John Butler, (as Mr Harley is convinced that is who I am), Collateral Damage then.

The victims of Child Sexual Abuse, the victims of wrongful disfellowshipping, the victims of wrongful shunning. 

The Lies told by the Writing dept and the GB. The false teachings. The false predictions. 

One could also include the unnecessary deaths of people dying through lack of blood, but that one is still debatable as the true meaning of the scriptures on that are not exactly known. Hence the GB keep moving the goal posts. And i will believe Matthew 12 v 9 -12. where Jesus talks about saving lives. 

@Arauna only' knows it is a price well worth paying' because she isn't actually paying that price. 

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45 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Do you think they would have described themselves that way? Or would they not have complained about “ad hominem” attacks and how their real, legitimate concerns were being ignored—just like malcontents do here?

Perhaps you are reading something into the book of Jude that I haven't been able to see. To me, the reason for the letter was this:

Jude 4

I say this because some ungodly people have wormed their way into your churches, saying that God’s marvelous grace allows us to live immoral lives.

This was similar to the problem in Corinth, where certain brothers were PROUD that they could put up with a notorious case of incest, due to a misunderstanding and misuse of "undeserved kindness."

(1 Corinthians 5:1, 2) . . .Actually sexual immorality is reported among you, and such immorality as is not even found among the nations—of a man living with his father’s wife. 2 And are you proud of it? Should you not rather mourn, so that the man who committed this deed should be taken away from your midst?

Such persons who used the idea of forgiveness, mercy, and undeserved kindness (grace), as an excuse for loose/brazen conduct were not blowing the whistle on wrongdoing, but were PROMOTING wrongdoing. It was the same as dismissing and speaking abusively against things that Jesus himself had said to "prove false to our only owner and Lord, Jesus Christ." Michael wouldn't even speak abusively of the Devil and yet these people are going to go further than that and think it's OK to speak abusively of Jesus and the angels?

It's also possible that the leaders (elders) are considered the "glorious ones" but this makes less sense to me. Perhaps a topic for further discussion?

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31 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

As @TrueTomHarley says (100 times a day) that some folks are only looking at the downside of the GB and it's Org. 

I confess that I am falling well short of the 100 times a day that I ought. I ask your forgiveness. Human limitations is the only excuse I have to offer.

If you negate the upside, then all there is left to look at is the downside, and that is the case with many here. 

I keep coming back to a line from The Scarlet Letter: “It is remarkable, that persons who speculate the most boldly often conform with the most perfect quietude to the external regulations of society.”

Nobody speculates more boldly, departing from the herd-like thinking of this world, than Jehovah’s Witnesses. True to that Hawthorn line, they have no difficulty conforming to the “external regulations of their society.”

Though Hawthorn does not say it, the reverse is also true. Those who cannot “conform to the external regulations of that society” and so leave it, perhaps guys like Shiwiiiii, are the most non-bold thinkers of all. They are individualistic in superfluous ways, but conformist in all the ways that matter.

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45 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I confess that I am falling well short of the 100 times a day that I ought. I ask your forgiveness. Human limitations is the only excuse I have to offer.

If you negate the upside, then all there is left to look at is the downside, and that is the case with many here. 

I keep coming back to a line from The Scarlet Letter: “It is remarkable, that persons who speculate the most boldly often conform with the most perfect quietude to the external regulations of society.”

Nobody speculates more boldly, departing from the herd-like thinking of this world, than Jehovah’s Witnesses. True to that Hawthorn line, they have no difficulty conforming to the “external regulations of their society.”

Though Hawthorn does not say it, the reverse is also true. Those who cannot “conform to the external regulations of that society” and so leave it, perhaps guys like Shiwiiiii, are the most non-bold thinkers of all. They are individualistic in superfluous ways, but conformist in all the ways that matter.

If only you would stop quoting outside sources, and just be more basic with your comments, then i may understand them .

Yes I understand 'if your throw out all the good, only the bad is left.  But the reverse is, if you only see the good, you are not being honest with yourself or others.  @Arauna is a case in point.  

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9 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Be a sport ... get the forms from the Post Office for certified mail, and return receipt (the cardboard green card), write a check, compose your letter, copy this thread in its entirety, and fire that torpedo into the dark, and see what lights up!

I have a better idea, big boy.

You write a letter—that way I do not have to—and ask about the specific reasons that Tim Cook was made part of the Governing Body. Specify that you want details.. Do not settle for “he was a pioneer for so many years, then a missionary, then a Bethel servant.”  No.

Ask about specific praiseworthy deeds, abilities, or accomplishments that made the others think: “We have to get this guy on the GB!” 

How bout it, sport? Write that letter. Make it certified. Send a copy to the BOE. Send a copy here, even, so that we can all see the answer. Hold their feet to the fire!

My guess is that you will not get anything more than the generic, and you may not get even that. Instead, you may get references to verse like 2 Corinthians 10:12

 For we do not dare to class ourselves among some or compare ourselves with some who recommend themselves. Certainly they in measuring themselves by themselves and comparing themselves with themselves have no understanding.

or there might even be counsel not to fall into the pattern of “admiring personalities.” (Jude 16)

When you get this reply, fire off another letter to them about how as MEN of HONOR, they owe it to you to SPILL when you say SPILL. Remind them of their scriptural obligation to TRUTHFULLY answer anyone who asks a question. Tell them that since you are asking them about good things, and not bad things, there is NO REASON for them not to oblige you. 

The reason that they still will not satisfy you is that they are not into honoring persons. It is very hard to get the laudable specifics about any individual. They view humans, even themselves, as placeholders used by God, and when this or that is accomplished, credit goes to Jehovah, not the GB character or helper or branch servant who dreamed it up or got the job done.

You have only to watch Sam Herd giving the Gilead talk in the most recent broadcast, shaking his jowls like Nixon, parodying those slobbering over the “Govnin Body” —a skit that I am still trying to get down pat for imitation—before he says it’s not any of them doing anything—you could do the same were you in their place—but it is Jehovah who should get all credit.

They are not into zeroing in on the accomplishments of humans. Humans are placeholders. The good things they do are attributed to Jehovah, the bad things to human imperfection. I doubt you will get specifics for either. 

Be a sport, JTR. Give it a go. Save me a stamp.

 

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....

 

2019-12-11_001100.jpg

TTH:

So that is your better idea, eh?

Again you miss the point of trying to solve a problem with a solution to a problem that does not exist.

Furthermore, it is painfully transparent and obvious that you do this to avoid having brought to the light of day facts that are painful for you to admit, that would be exposed by following my suggestion.

I already know the answers that you will get from my suggestion.

You do too.

We are BOTH ashamed of what we will learn as part of this exercise that would cost about $50 ... NOT the cost of a single stamp, and would require  a full day to do it right.

I have already done what I suggested several times in the past, with other issues,  and as I sent my little "torpedos" out into the dark, what lit up on the horizon was not what I wanted to see, either.

.... but it was IMPORTANT information.

Information based on TRUTH ... not rumors, innuendo, legends, wishful thinking, and second, third, and fourth hand accounts from unknown or unverified sources.

The question at hand was trying to get honest answers about a HIGHLY controversial aspect of our history, and the people involved, straight "from the horses mouth", INSTEAD of hearsay, which facts you consider heresy.

Your suggestion would be a meaningless exercise, just as your attempt at diversion from an obvious outcome being documented in truth and honesty is a meaningless exercise, merely a  political obfuscation for the sake of obfuscation, as we have seen recently in the News.

 

1-1-adamshiff-600-x-323.jpg

 

.... merely a fantasy construct in an attempt attempt to wound reality.

 

 

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33 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Your suggestion would be a meaningless exercise,

My suggestion would put your stupid contention to bed once and for all.

They are unlikely to report the bad personal details that you hope. They are unlikely to release the good personal details that you should ask for in order to ascertain that it is not about personal details with them—good or bad.

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5 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

before he says it’s not any of them doing anything—you could do the same were you in their place—but it is Jehovah who should get all credit.

I haven't watched it yet. Did he really say that, because that's what I've always said. Some people didn't like that though, unfortunately proving that they were kind of "worshipful" of the GB, and believed the GB were ultra special and more than anyoe else. 

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1 minute ago, Anna said:

haven't watched it yet. Did he really say that, because that's what I've always said. Some people didn't like that though, unfortunately proving that they were kind of "worshipful" of the GB, and believed the GB were ultra special and more than anyoe else. 

One of three questions they asked me at my Reinstatement was (paraphrased) "What is your opinion of the Governing Body?"

I replied  (paraphrased) " I would have to agree with them in the February 2017 Watchtower, that they are neither inspired of God, or infallible.".

I believe that if I had phrased that differently, all other things being equal, I would NOT have been Reinstated.

By actual test, I would agree with you, Anna.

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22 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Michael wouldn't even speak abusively of the Devil and yet these people are going to go further than that and think it's OK to speak abusively of Jesus and the angels?

I think that’s very unlikely. I mean, come on, are you going to cuss out an angel—dare him to a fight? Unless you no longer believe in angels, but then the phrase loses its meaning.

22 hours ago, JW Insider said:

It's also possible that the leaders (elders) are considered the "glorious ones" but this makes less sense to me.

I think it makes more sense, partly because of the above reasoning and partly because of the aspect of Law that Paul recalled when he cussed out the high priest: “You must not speak injuriously of a ruler of your people.” These ones of Jude had no problem with it.

22 hours ago, JW Insider said:

And are you proud of it? [tolerating a case of incest] Should you not rather mourn, so that the man who committed this deed should be taken away from your midst?

I think that expression is probably like what your mother used to say when upbraiding you for some act of disobedience, prefacing her scolding with: “I suppose you are proud of yourself, are you?!” She doesn’t actually think you are proud—just disobedient, maybe that you think you know better. And in the case of those Corinth elders, negligent—perhaps with some self-exalted view of “tolerance” as you suggest or perhaps just plain negligent. Arguing for the latter is the fact that when they did lower the hammer on this lout, Paul had to counsel them to let up in his next letter—the rebuke of the man had had its effect, but they were slow to see that—or perhaps just negligent once again in the other direction. Negligent is as negligent does.

On 12/10/2019 at 9:57 AM, JW Insider said:

Jude did not write about whistleblowers. Jude WAS the whistleblower!

I played a little loose with the term, admittedly. Actually, to the extent that the GB are the successors of those who brought the truth of God’s word to us in the first place, they are the biggest whistleblowers of all time—blowing the whistle on the deceptions of religion claiming to represent God.

A lot of detractors today pose as “whistleblowers”—unheeded reformers, who say they do not have anything against Jehovah’s Witnesses—they just want to curtail what they think are wrong practices. It’s hard to ferret out who’s who, here, because these persons mix here with ones who truly would like to see the whole JW structure AND the message they spearhead blown to smithereens. It is easy to overgeneralize, as @Arauna perhaps has done. Still, Shultz on my Twitter feed (of deVienne & Shultz) observed that whistleblowing in the case of JWs is often just a blind for not wanting to live the morals and principles that Witnesses do.

It’s hard to believe that those slimy ones of Jude’s letter would have acquiesced to Jude’s description of them. It is far easier to believe that many of them would have repackaged themselves as reformers, whistleblowers, even escaped cult members. The congregation they left was simply too strict, too unyielding, even abusive in “forcing” its version of morality on others, and they would change that.

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11 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I think that’s very unlikely. I mean, come on, are you going to cuss out an angel—dare him to a fight? Unless you no longer believe in angels, but then the phrase loses its meaning.

Maybe this was in the sense of these "bad elders" rejecting the counsel given by "good elders" who were quoting Bible books and the Mosaic Law (as transmitted through angels), or these "bad elders" were speaking out against sayings of Jesus and inspired writings of the apostles, as if they held no value to this time they were in, so many decades after Jesus originally spoke them. Also (less likely) Jude quotes the book of Enoch, specifically a part about the judgment of angels, and he appears to refer to another book about the "Assumption of Moses." We don't know how much more of those books were accepted other than the portions referenced, but these books were part of a genre that gave names to dozens of angels and referenced many more hierachies of thousands of angels.

11 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

the aspect of Law that Paul recalled when he cussed out the high priest: “You must not speak injuriously of a ruler of your people.”

Good point!

11 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

“I suppose you are proud of yourself, are you?!” She doesn’t actually think you are proud—just disobedient, maybe that you think you know better.

I doubt it. There are too many scriptures, and too much context that shows what Paul was up against in trying to get the congregations to accept and understand the concept of "grace" or "undeserved kindness." (Along with "law" "legalism" "works" "righteousness" "sin" "conscience" etc.) Paul had to write chapters, nearly whole long letters, on the subject, and it even put him for a short while at odds with the Jerusalem council.

11 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Still, Shultz on my Twitter feed (of deVienne & Shultz) observed that whistleblowing in the case of JWs is often just a blind for not wanting to live the morals and principles that Witnesses do.

Probably it is sometimes. But I'd guess there are some exceptions, too. For example, the whistleblowing of the CSA cases all over the world has drawn attention to a lot of things that go on in the world where the abused victims felt powerless. In many institutions, including once-hostile work environments, this is actually changing for the better. The threat of monetary sanctions has made even rich men who could once get away with anything (as Trump claimed), think twice. It has definitely helped in some suburban schools and even corporations I once worked for. I suspect that many priests and elders who once thought they would get away with anything are now more apt to think again before abusing persons.

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10 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:
17 hours ago, Anna said:

Did he really say that,

Word for word.

Yes. Just watched it.

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

But the whistleblowing of the CSA cases all over the world have drawn attention to a lot of things that go on in the world where the abused victims felt powerless. In many institutions, including once-hostile work environments, this is actually changing for the better. The threat of monetary sanctions has made even rich men who could once get away with anything (as Trump claimed), think twice. It has definitely helped in some suburban schools and even corporations I once worked for. I suspect that many priests and elders who once thought they would get away with anything are now more apt to think again before abusing persons.

I like that you talk about the broad effects of the impact whistleblowing has had in this particular area. It's not just the Witnesses, but many institutions. Many guilty people would have probably got away with sexual abuse 20 years ago, but not so much today. Even royalty have been put under the microscope. History is rife with stories of rich dirty old men having sex with underage girls and getting away with it.

When enough people make noise, it can't be ignored.

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21 hours ago, Anna said:

unfortunately proving that they were kind of "worshipful" of the GB, and believed the GB were ultra special and more than anyoe else. 

I’m not really sure what “worshipful” means. 

When celebrities come into town, they are mobbed by fans. Are those fans worshipful? I might say yes, but the fans themselves will just say they they are flocking to them out of respect for their accomplishments. If brothers pose for selfies with the GB members (much to the latter’s annoyance, I am consistently told, someone said with the possible exception of Lett) are they “worshipful?” It’s in the eye of the beholder, I think.

Though I have a great many faults, admiring personalities is not one of them. I would love to have a GB member stay at my house so I could ignore him. “There’s your room—make yourself at home. If you’d like to visit, that works fine, but you have many things to do and if you ignore us completely that also works fine with us,” 

Probably there are few words they could hear that would please them more.

And no, @James Thomas Rook Jr., I wouldn’t present them with a list of my QUESTIONS that, as MEN of HONOR, they are obligated to answer,

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23 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

It’s hard to believe that those slimy ones of Jude’s letter would have acquiesced to Jude’s description of them. It is far easier to believe that many of them would have repackaged themselves as reformers, whistleblowers, even escaped cult members. The congregation they left was simply too strict, too unyielding, even abusive in “forcing” its version of morality on others, and they would change that.

An interesting take with a lot to say for it.

When Jude mentions these "rocks beneath the surface" for example, it always reminds me of the first time I read "Paul and Thecla" while at Bethel, but at the NYPL, via a book about Christian widows in Early Christianity. Paul and Thecla is an early Christian short story or novella with Thecla, not Paul, as the hero. It's one of a few stories of this type, probably written by and for women in the early Christian congregations. The antagonists of some of these stories are the 2nd century "circuit overseers" who would go from congregation to congregation saying all the right things from the "platform" but then they would also quietly worm their way into the houses of well-meaning sisters and widows, and try to take advantage of them sexually.

I was quite surprised when the Watchtower last year mentioned Paul and Thecla for the second time in nearly 100 years, and was again surprisingly supportive of the work as containing possible reflections of true traditions believed in the 2nd century:

*** w18 March p. 13 par. 3 Questions From Readers ***
The Acts of Paul and Thecla was highly regarded in early centuries, as confirmed by the fact that 80 Greek manuscripts of it exist, as well as versions in other languages. Thus, our artistic presentations are in line with some ancient indications of what the apostle looked like.

I personally have never experienced a "bad" circuit overseer. All of them have been exemplary and I have always looked forward to their visits, especially when hearing a new one for the first time. But I think all of us old-timers have had experience with congregational drifters, and we often look at them with the same kinds of suspicions. Sometimes it's a young brother who is very vague about his last congregation and who quickly latches on to an association with another eligible sister. Sometimes it's a more elderly brother, perhaps even a special pioneer, looking for an alternate congregation, hoping the trouble he caused in the last congregation won't get reported in too much detail. (Speaking from a real example, this elderly brother also latched onto a "relationship," and place to stay, with a family of sisters: a sister with an unbelieving and ailing husband, and a couple of daughters. It was a recipe for disaster.) The younger brother caused some heart-ache by getting engaged to a sister, and the engagement was later broken off. 

It's hard for me not to imagine such cases when I read Jude. So, at first, it was hard for me to see them as drifters into forums like this one to cause other kinds of trouble, but I can definitely see a similarity now.  

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19 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

It is easy to overgeneralize, as @Arauna perhaps has done. Still, Shultz on my Twitter

One gets a sense of who really is here to get closer to the truth of a matter (within reason)  and who just wants to destroy - like Satan.  Satan: always wants to win by destroying all truth and reasonableness and uses deceit.   I do see a general attitude here at times. Sorry if it hurts feelings but there are people here whom I have called out as having OCD because I already know what their answer will be. They revert back to same old answers and behaviour expecting different results.

I guess I am predictable too.  I hate deceit...... 

19 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

think that’s very unlikely. I mean, come on, are you going to cuss out an

People are pretty disrespectful these days..... burn the bible, call jesus names... I think we will see very bad behaviour in future towards all who believe in christ. 

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13 hours ago, JW Insider said:

all over the world has drawn attention to a lot of things that go on in the world where the abused victims felt powerless. In many institutions, including once-hostile work environments, this is actually changing for the better. The threat of monetary sanctions has made even rich men who could once get aw

Although the "me too" movement has brought the plight  of individuals to the fore I think it is a temporary phenomena.  We will see a few institutions sued for money due to past  negligence (as JWs) to provide a public token of supposed caring and a "show" of justice but the  true and horrific extent of child trafficking and sex abuse will not be exposed.  It is a world- wide network which, I suspect, brings in profits comparable to, or more than drugs,  and is active also amongst the depraved elite, including CIA, judges, princes etc. It will escalate as young children are now groomed by the new UN school curriculim. Child sex abuse is covered up by law enforcement and government institutions we trust because rich and important people are involved. 

Here is another general  comment: satan's world will soon not be hidden any longer. It will no longer operate in the shadows. Seriously wicked things will go on in full view of the public as this way of thinking infiltrates all aspects if thinking in society..... like LGBT it will be tolerated.  Mankind is sinking lower and lower in a depraved mental state.

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On 12/10/2019 at 10:46 PM, 4Jah2me said:

if you only see the good, you are not being honest with yourself or others.  @Arauna is a case in point.  

Are you honest? I have just seen you bashing JWs, never acknowledging anything good about them.   You have given me labels many times in your so-called bias - search for something which can only be called truth if it confirms to your personal viewpoint. 

On 12/10/2019 at 9:12 PM, 4Jah2me said:

don't. I just want it made clean. As

How unrealistic this expectation in a wicked world...... Do you believe the bible?   Yes or No ?   God himself chose king Saul for his humility and then saul turned aside and became unapproved.... to the extent that he visited the witch if Endor calling up the dead.   Jesus chose Jude himself after praying with holy spirit and jude later became  wicked (practicing theft, deceit) and eventually betrayed him..... 

We can try to obtain a clean congregation but there will always be individuals who can turn wicked and create problems until someone speaks up and evidence is obtained.   And if the government cannot get a conviction ?  Then we only have rumours to go on..... which is unloving if there is no proof.  The bible itself says we must not defame others.  It is also a grave offence.  This is why it is hard to obtain perfection. Do we err on the side of obtaining justice or mercy...... because both these attributes are important.

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On 12/10/2019 at 9:12 PM, 4Jah2me said:

also include the unnecessary deaths of people dying through lack of blood, but that one is still debatable as the true meaning of the scriptures on that are not exactly known. Hence the GB keep moving the goal posts. And i will believe Matthew 12 v 9 -12. where Jesus talks about saving lives. 

@Arauna only' knows it is a price well worth paying' because she isn't actually paying that price

Are you for real? You know nothing about me.....and the tests I had to face.... 

But I know the word of God and I have paid my dues.  My daughter had cancer and had surgery  which lasted the entire day..... without blood and she was 8 and half months old.  ....

If she had taken blood she would not have survived.  It is what the doctors and this world don't tell you that is important!  I can share all the info I learnt  with you to prove to you that the bible is absolutely right when it cautions us to abstain from blood. .... if you are interested I can inform you.

It takes the liver 30 days to break down foreign blood in the system..... if the person is too weak they get anaphalactic shock from the blood transfusion - which is never given as the reason for death on the death certificate. ..... always complications from surgery.

Life is important to me ..... but everlasting life is more important. 

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10 hours ago, Arauna said:

Sorry if it hurts feelings but there are people here whom I have called out as having OCD because I already know what their answer will be. They revert back to same old answers and behaviour expecting different results.

I get exactly what you mean, kinda like these? 

"Families are free to report abuse to the authorities" 

"leave it in Jehova's hands"

"click on jw.orb"

"the answers are on the website"

"That's for Jehova to decide" 

"we don't shun former members" 

"we only had the library card"

 

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

get exactly what you mean, kinda like these? 

"Families are free to report abuse to the authorities" 

"leave it in Jehova's hands"

"click on jw.orb"

"the answers are on the website"

"That's for Jehova to decide" 

"we don't shun former members" 

"we only had the library card

Your OCD  deceit and hate  is showing. .....

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On 12/10/2019 at 3:20 AM, Shiwiii said:

what Arauna, if I were here to spread hate, there would be plenty more of it. The fact of the matter is that you and I are very similar, we both want to open each others eyes. 

One can only open someones eyes if they are really searching for the truth.  I apologize if I have become too skeptical about the motives of people who contribute on this forum.  There is enough evidence here to suggest that I may be correct. 

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12 hours ago, Arauna said:

Your OCD  deceit and hate  is showing. .....

Hate? anything but! Just supporting your statement. 

11 hours ago, Arauna said:

One can only open someones eyes if they are really searching for the truth.  I apologize if I have become too skeptical about the motives of people who contribute on this forum.  There is enough evidence here to suggest that I may be correct. 

 

I completely agree. You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot force it to drink. 

No need to apologize, we all here have different ideas about what the wt is all about, and have all heard it before. 

Assumptions though, only work in your own mind. 

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