Creationism

[Arauna]

3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

My mother believes that Satan, who keeps transforming himself into an angel of light, was given powers/permission to hide fossils in whatever places he wished to cause

We all know that some of the elderly can justify their thinking for themselves..... Although elderly myself I search for realities. 

 

3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

in the feathers on certain non-flying dinosaurs as feathery-looking ferns and/or other leaves and plants

I went to the London natural museum several times to look at fossils of dinosaurs.  The bone structure of most dinosaurs fall into two categories, those who resemble reptiles and those who have hollow bones and resemble birds..... and had bright feathers.  Today we have many birds who do not go into water and do not fly.  These large bird-like creatures  must have lived near water to cool down as large animals will not survive without large bodies of water.  Elephants and rhino need mud or water - even today.

Many of the mammals looked like the animals we have today such as rhino....... but just much larger than today.  This is my own deduction on this matter: that the change in the atmosphere and earth after the flood was so great that Jehovah allowed those creatures, who would not survive afterward, to die out.  Since many animals adapt to their environment (macro evolution - where they do not change specie but just appearance for adaption) they became smaller and changed to suit the environment and different food they ate.... this would affect the animal such as Darwins finches that had adaption in the beak and back again without changing DNA.

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Although my own son (the math/physicist)

Tell him to speak to a nano- biotechnologists and the structure of the building blocks of the cell. 

A physicist cannot explain where the dynamic energy for the entire universe came from..... to bring all this matter into being in orderly fashion too.  Mutation and the second law of thermodynamics is now used by evolutionists in feeble way to try to explain evolution but we all know that when this occurs it 'breaks down' the existing order and does not 'build' order and structure.

If Jehovah removed his dynamic energy from the universe - I have a nasty suspicion that all would cease to exist.

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

s that HONEST scientists are forced to ace

Not true - they believe the propaganda and the hype and want to remain part of the system wherein you cannot go against the accepted narrative.  Look what happened to the professor who wrote the first paper which proved that there are proteins in dinosaur bones. The top evolutionists wanted him banned. He lost his job.  it was settled out of court because people did not want this to get out.  Since then there have been more than ten papers with different proteins in dinosaur bones.

 

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

best the Society can do is to look for inconsistencies and disagreement

No - there are truly many inconsistencies but one has to look out for them because it is what they are NOT telling you which is important!

 

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

wanted mankind to develop technologically, and as indicated by the Tower of Babel, perhaps controlled the pace of that progress until today or some time in the near future.

All I can say is that Jehovah did not want this development under wicked humans because they will use it in a selfish and oppressive way.  But he held it back in time of Babel until the time of the end because the big showdown is on its way.  Perfect timing by Jehovah to draw out satan and those who think like him.  Dr Evil is taking over the technology - and we will soon see this emerging much more.  Humans were made to live in harmony with Jehovah and his wishes - not our own selfish desires for power and influence over others.  Mankind is truly wicked - we need Jehovah to flourish!

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Perhaps it was so that man would someday harness these powers and create a safe source of energy?

Yes it is still expensive to create hydrogen for cars or other machines.... but I myself would just like to live in a society where there is harmony, peace and rest. ... and interact with animals and people and tend to the earth!    Trees talk to each other chemically and they even feed their babies....young trees.   I would like to learn more about this!

I have gotten rid of all earthly ambitions and egocentric desires..... and guess what ..... I am happy! 

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Even animals that are violent with one another can still be trained to be peaceful in their interaction with humans.

Many examples in Africa! 

 

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

When did certain plants and elements become poisonous to us? Only after Adam's sin?

We can eat some mushrooms today but many kinds kill you quickly as the liver will shut down.  These complex proteins are now deadly to us.... but maybe before they were not.  We can eat complex carbohydrates but not complex proteins.  I do think the earth changed after the curse and also after the flood. 

[JW Insider]

59 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Thanks Tom, we are obviously dealing with secularized JWs who are sitting on the fence and maybe do not even really believe the bible when it says jehovah created everything with his dynamic energy.

If you are referring to me here, then you should know that I am not disappointed in Jehovah, nor in Creation. I am only disappointed that our explanations are not able to keep up with the evidence. I can't think of another way to put it, but this is an area where we must currently reject evidence, some of which I have gone to see for myself, hoping the evidence was more ambiguous. There are many ways to resolve the existence of God and even MOST of the evidence. But we are clearly oversimplifying the process of creation if those unresolved pieces of evidence are real. 

And I have no problem with imagining that Jehovah created many thousands of species that we have not yet seen, and that creation was a much a grander and more wonderful process than we could imagine. I still think there is a good explanation out there somewhere. I am disappointed, not in the Bible, but in the fact that some WTS writers, especially in the past, had misused the writings of evolutionists instead of dealing with the evidence itself. I wasn't referring to the case that TTH mentioned. But I didn't think this point was generally in question.

[Arauna]

5 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

But we are clearly oversimplifying the process of creation if those unresolved p

Agreed - especially the evolutionists are making the creation into a thing that an unthinking process can accomplish!

6 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

There are many ways to resolve the existence of God

Yes, an analysis of the logic, coherency, consistency and continuity of the main theme in the bible and compared to what is going on in the academic sector and the world - one can only come to one conclusion:- we need a government that is outside this universe and one which is based on much higher principles and justice than we see mankind capable of. We are truly wicked and our history proves that.  We DO have a nasty flaw as the bible says.

 

11 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

I am disappointed, not in the Bible, but in the fact that some WTS writers, especially in the past,

The general public and many people are not really interested in the nitty gritty little facts - they want a quick read... something which tells them what to think. Also,  there has been an explosion of new discoveries which now are being suppressed.  Every now and then I get something interesting in  my inbox which triggers my thoughts.

Many young people are too busy raising families and struggling with a career and to keep a job in these critical times.... there is little time for research and to attend and prepare for  meetings and field service. 

If I sounded harsh - I did not mean to...... but I  do say what I think.  I think the secular humanist ideologies has softened most American's brains.  It is everywhere and leading many astray..... even Jehovah's people. We must all be vigilant. 

I believe that our fight is against a very immoral world which is getting worse and worse as we speak.  I feel for the young people who are raising children in schools where they are teaching these corrupt sexual practices and other teachings as if it is the truth. Many children cannot opt out of saying the Shahada because Islam is promoted as a religion of peace-  another lie openly promoted by satan as truth. 

[TrueTomHarley]

50 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

wasn't referring to the case that TTH mentioned. But I didn't think this point was generally in question.

Somewhere in my writings I have alluded to the embarrassment one will feel upon visiting the Ithaca Earth Museum with Tom Pearlsandswine and trying to avoid the stares of others as he loudly mutters about the “wiles of Satan”

[JW Insider]

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

that the change in the atmosphere and earth after the flood was so great that Jehovah allowed those creatures, who would not survive afterward, to die out.

This would mean that you think the dinosaurs died out about 4,400 years ago?

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

Also,  there has been an explosion of new discoveries which now are being suppressed.

I heard you mention a couple of these. The ones I looked up didn't pan out. The claims about them were not very scientific. And obviously this is where I would hope that new answers will show up, and hopefully this is where WTS writers will be especially helpful. While I was at Bethel there was no one who knew much of anything about this type of science. If there was, he or she didn't speak up when the Evolution book was ready for an update.

[AlanF]

For Big Old Woman Arauna:

For the most part from here on in, I'm going to turn Arauna's dishonest "debate tactics" back on her: ignore some arguments, falsely claim that responses were never given, and so forth.

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All these little side issues keep you focussed on them so you do not ask the BIG questions..  Where did all the energy for this vast universe come from in the first place.  What was there before the singularity?

Already answered. Now you answer similar ones.

Where did God come from? Who created God? Where did God get all his "dynamic energy" from? How long has God existed?

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They keep you busy with hypothesis of 23 universes.... lol....

You just pulled that out of your ass. No one has such a "hypothesis".

I think what you've done is confuse the 11 dimensions proposed by one of the string hypotheses with some of the multiverse hypotheses. But your senile old brain isn't firing on all cylinders.

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I am glad I have a real smart brother who can do math and a researcher in carbon chemistry..... so I have access to knowledge that gives real answers.

But you're too cowardly to let him evaluate answers such as I've given you about the decay of uranium-238 -- which I've given you two times now, and you've ignored each time.

Wow, not only dishonest to a fault, but cowardly and senile!

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True evolutionists acknowledge that they do not have the answers.....

To some things, sure. To things like "what does the fossil record show?" they have plenty of answers. You just don't like them because they destroy your world view.

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Why? Because there is too many things one needs to get explanations for which  accidental order and intricacy cannot  explain.

Like, Who created God?

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And the records are too scanty to support it..... even if you try your hardest you know you are lying to yourself.  Honest evolutionists acknowledge there is not enough evidence - usually after they have retired......

LOL! Yet another creationist talking point.
     

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    On 12/2/2019 at 5:49 AM, AlanF said:

    times now: the "Cambrian explosion" lasted 20 million to 140 million years,

Not true - 10 million ..... the newest info.

 

That's just one figure. And of course, you cannot name your source. And as I've carefully explained several times, the number is entirely subjective because it depends on exactly how one defines "explosion". You just don't learn.
Nevertheless, even 10 million years is a long time for life to proliferate.
     

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    On 12/2/2019 at 5:49 AM, AlanF said:

    plenty of such things. I've given you links to descriptions of them. You simply refuse to learn anything.

If there were plenty..... I would be convinced by now.  

 

LOL! Yet another instance of Orwellian crimestop.
     

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    On 12/2/2019 at 5:49 AM, AlanF said:

    again, read a good book on paleontology

 

    
We note the refusal to self-educate.

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Explain the 13 proteins found in the bones..... which points to a younger earth..... This has not been explained in an acceptable way

I already did. You've again ignored what I've said because your Orwellian crimestop kicked in.

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

I feel for the young people who are raising children in schools where they are teaching these corrupt sexual practices and other teachings as if it is the truth

You are right that there has been a movement to "normalize" all this supposed sexual fluidity and new definitions. These supposedly progressive "culture warriors" are out there trying to get anything and everything made acceptable. It's a real mess. And it is also working as a trap for stupid Americans (apologies to stupid Americans) who think that this is some wonderful bandwagon to jump on.

Even in many colleges and universities, so-called places for progress and freedom, many of these "culture warriors" have tried to suppress speech, etc.

[Arauna]

45 minutes ago, AlanF said:

even 10 million years is a long time for life to proliferate.

That indicates that you have not looked at the math to see how many minute changes are necessary to build only one cell - and this does not even include the whole entity with its many organs etc.

[AlanF]

JW Insider said:

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    6 hours ago, Arauna said:

    It is propaganda...... from scholars who have a vested interest to keep things going....... just like the high priests in Jesus' time...... they like the power and the influence this system gives them.

On the overall subject of evolution, I don't pretend to know the answers. I think that a lot of the evidence on both sides has been misunderstood, but every time I try to look into it myself, it seems that the "wrong" evidence is winning. My mother believes that Satan, who keeps transforming himself into an angel of light, was given powers/permission to hide fossils in whatever places he wished to cause confusion and division. (Perhaps a hint of this in Satan's argument over Moses' body in Jude 9.) I don't like this theory at all. I've mostly heard it from young earth creationists, and was actually surprised to hear it from my mother. It brings up so many questions about the timing of such "miracles" that Satan was allowed to perform. Were these fossils moved at the time of the Garden of Eden? Is Satan still allowed to perform these miracles today?

 

Your mother is hopelessly out of date here. Even the Society accepts the reality of the fossil record.

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I've heard my father (in fact I've been with him at museums) back in the years when he tried to explain the feathers on certain non-flying dinosaurs as feathery-looking ferns and/or other leaves and plants. I've now seen enough of these fossils up close so that I realize he is just grasping at straws.

What else does he have?

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I have always assumed that there is a bigger puzzle here and that none of us are ready to deal with all the facts and evidence yet. Although my own son (the math/physicist) tells me that the sum total of the evidence does currently fit the evolution theory, with some minor exceptions not yet understood, but which will probably still fit among the current theories, with minor adjustments.

Your son is far wiser than most JW kids.

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To my son's credit, he does not believe the current theories are necessarily final, and they don't prove there is no God.

True on both counts. No Scientific Theory is ever final. It only becomes better and better verified over time, to the point where, as Stephen Jay Gould said, "It would be perverse not to accept it." Like the Theory of Gravity etc.

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But here is the most surprising thing about my son's belief: The current theories are the ones that HONEST scientists are forced to accept based on rules of handling scientific evidence.

Exactly.

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It's not the same as scholars having a vested interest in keeping things going because of power and influence. In fact, if a scientist could come up with a new theory that fits the facts and evidence, he would become the new Darwin. It's probably the "holy grail" of scientists to be able to topple a current theory with a better explanation for all the evidence The problem is not the scholars, or the theory, it's that this theory is the RIGHT one from the perspective of science. It fits the old evidence and the new evidence, so far.

Yep. And if such a maverick theory stood up to all manner of rigorous tests, as the modern Theory of Evolution has, most scientists would be happy to adopt it.

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The best the Society can do is to look for inconsistencies and disagreements among certain scientists, and make the most of these issues to show us that there is still some room for disagreement over certain bits of evidence.

Right. Such disagreements are normal for a dynamic field of science.

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I'm very disappointed when the WTS writers stoop to misquoting the evolutionary scientists, however, or quote a religious view from a different kind of scientist who clearly never dealt with evolutionary theory.

WTS writers are so well known for this dishonesty that most scientists laugh at them.

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I'd like to think that the WTS writers were only being careless when looking for ways to discredit evolutionary scientists, but the clever way in which words have been selected for quotes, with other words left out, tells me that the writers have sometimes understood the original intent and stooped to dishonesty.

Exactly. I've posted about such many times.

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I'm not sure why a WTS writer would ever think this was a reasonable solution for us. But it tells me that the WTS is not ready to explain the overall evidence yet.

Harry Peloyan, editor-in-chief of Awake!, once told me why they do it: they enjoy making secularists look bad. Apparently it didn't dawn on him that such tactics make the Watchtower Society a laughingstock in all arenas but the echo-chamber of the JW community.
     

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    On 12/1/2019 at 12:26 PM, Arauna said:

    Uranium breaks down into  lead  reasonably fast.... and there is still uranium left on the earth..... so if the earth is as old as they say, there would be no uranium left.

This reminds me of a problem I've had with uranium. What GOOD is it?

 

That's not a well thought out question. Since it's produced in supernovas, along with most other elements, it just IS. What use people put it to is a different issue.

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Radioactive substances were clearly on the earth when Jehovah declared each successive day "good." And after the sixth day he could look back and see that everything he had made was good.

Was it good because humans might find that some radioactive elements could be made to produce heat like coals? Obviously not! Were all radioactive elements and substances kept out of man's reach so that he would never come across them?

 

There's a lot of radioactive materials inside the earth. Some people have proposed that the earth's core is more or less a giant reactor. In any case, this internal radioactivity generates a lot of heat, which in turn drives plate tectonics, which in turn has made the oceans and continents into what they are today. Without those things, the earth's surface would long ago have eroded below sea level.

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. . . Even animals that are violent with one another can still be trained to be peaceful in their interaction with humans.

Not entirely. For that to work, God would have to chain the brains of most predators. Or perhaps assign an angel to each predator. And of course, what would meat-eaters eat? Cats require meat, not vegetables.

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But perhaps this is the same argument that AlanF is making about thousands of years

Half a billion.

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of animals being violent and unloving with one another. I have less problem with that, than with all the things that would seem to be poison to us, and which we would only learn about through dangerous, even lethal, experimentation. Does EVERY poison and danger have a good side? When did certain plants and elements become poisonous to us? Only after Adam's sin?

All of which goes to prove my contention: the Bible Creator is not loving.

[Arauna]

3 minutes ago, AlanF said:

No Scientific Theory is ever final.

No evolution theory can be reproduced and be observed because the evidence is scrappy. ..... and one can hide behind the fact that it is not final...

6 minutes ago, AlanF said:

That's not a well thought out question. Since it's

The question is about the earth...... why there is still some uranium  here !  If it came from another supernova..... when and how was it replenished here on earth..... what catastrophe brough it here from that distance. The question is valid.

11 minutes ago, AlanF said:

Cats require meat, not vegetables.

Another argument against evolution, given in your own words.  So animals cannot adapt?  

14 minutes ago, AlanF said:

this internal radioactivity generates a lot of heat, which in turn

We are not talking about the core of the earth but the crust - that has been here for a very long time..... since you do not believe I  the flood

[TrueTomHarley]

18 minutes ago, Arauna said:

That indicates that you have not looked at the math to see how many minute changes are necessary to build only one cell - and this does not even include the whole entity with its many organs etc.

I think that this is true. So many things depend upon which scientists you listen to. Often, the scientists carrying the day at any given moment try to declare their opponents NOT reputable scientists. That way they can say: “All reputable scientists have concluded that.....”

I have stopped following the day to day development on this front, but I recall it was not uncommon for mathematicians to rule aspects of evolution out on the basis of probability alone, no matter how long the requisite time span be said to be.

I interacted with both atheists and evolutionists (often, though no always, the same) on my own blog. The most weighty of the posts were several years ago. I did read a couple of evolutionist books, “The Making of the Fittest: DNA and the Ultimate Forensic Record of Evolution” by Sean Carroll and one by Carl Zimmer. They’re not nothing. I benefited by reading them. But the do not change the big picture.

In some ways they reveal the fallacy of human thinking. People have figured out some of the appropriate questions to ask and that accomplishment is enough for them to carry on as though they had discovered the answers.

[AlanF]

TrueTomHarley said:

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    4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

    I'm very disappointed when the WTS writers stoop to misquoting the evolutionary scientists

Do they? It is in the eye of the beholder.

 

They certainly do. This is not subjective, as your excuse claims: it is objective.

If a quote changes the meaning of the original, or misrepresents what the original author intended, it is a misquote, a misrepresentation, period. There are hundreds of examples of this in Watchtower literature.

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Must one really point out when quoting a scientist that he believes his own theory.

Another straw man.

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I gave an example with Darwin’s quote about the eye:

Darwin wrote:

“To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances . . .”....

. . .

. . . If you use his quote to suggest he considers himself a charlatan, that's dishonest. But if you use his quote to show he acknowledges some pretty high hurdles exist in proving his theory.....well, what's wrong with that?

 

Nothing -- as long as you also quote enough to show that he explained why the seeming absurdity is a misconception. That lack is why the Watchtower's misuse of Darwin's "eye quote" in the 1985 Creation book is so egregious, as are so many other misrepresentations.

This is very simple: an honest writer does not misrepresent the words or views of those he quotes.