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THE REIGNING 144,000

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And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10  and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings

    Hello guest!
 over the earth.”Rev 5:9,10 - NWT

As a JW, this sounded accurate to me, since it fit the supporting doctrine that the “144,000” will rule strictly from heaven – “over” the earth...not within its vicinity, but from the spiritual realm.  What I have since learned about this scripture and Christ’s truth regarding where the anointed will be “ruling” from, has been an important turning point for me.

Notice how the organization’s own Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures breaks down vs. 10:

“and you made them to the God of us kingdom and priests and they are reigning upon the earth”

Here are a few other examples:

“And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.”  Scripture4all.org

“…they will reign upon the earth”. 

    Hello guest!

It is very rare to find a Bible translation using the phrase “over the earth” in this scripture. The organization’s latest pictorial depiction of the 144,000 kings/priests ruling in heaven was of a vast array of emerald green thrones where men appearing identical to one another and to Christ, gazed over the earth as Christ’s “co-rulers”.  I wonder what the anointed JW women feel about a female’s apparent transition into a man, who are clones of each other.  This teaching sounds ridiculous to me today.  However, since the role of JW women is repeatedly slighted, should we expect any acknowledgement of the anointed being both male and female?  I could be in error, but I haven’t seen any photos of women partaking in the magazines.

 There is no Jew or Greek, slave or free, male or female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.  Gal 3:28

To be one in Christ does not mean the faithful sealed anointed take on the same physical appearance as Christ. All of the members of a fleshly body are distinctly different in appearance; working separately yet collectively, with the unified goal to allow the body to work efficiently.  It is the same in the Body of Christ. 1 Cor 12:15-20  All are given various gifts, and all are individuals with individual personalities. They have abilities reflecting the gift they receive.

 Paul described it this way:

There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.  1 Cor 12:4-6

If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20 As it is, there are many parts, but one body. 1 Cor 12:19,20

Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For we were all baptized byone Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. 14 Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many. 1 Cor 12:12-14

15 Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ. 16 From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.  Eph 4:11-16

The 144,000 are the Bride of Christ under the New Covenant “woman”/promise.   (2 Cor 11:2; Eph 5:29-32; Gal 4:26) It is curious that the WT's leaders rarely go into detail about this.  When I recall their latest illustration described above, I don’t believe the artist had the idea of “bride” in mind. I could only sense an aura of steely authority, without the needed compassion and love that Jesus exhibited and taught his disciples to nurture within themselves. (Isa 42:3; Matt 14:14; John 13:34,35; 1 John 4: 17; Heb 4:15)

Just as a bride and groom are not identical to each other, neither is Christ’s Bride of many members; either to Christ, or to one another, as the illustration erroneously shows. (1 Cor 12:29,30; Eph 4:11-13)  Marriage partners compliment and support each other in love.  It is the same with the Body of Christ, being united in one Spirit that imparts love, faith and knowledge of Christ and the Father.

The organization’s leaders are unable to perceive this spiritual unity, since they have rejected the Spirit of Christ, in exchange for the spirit of Satan.  (John 15:4-7;1 Cor 6:15-17; 2 Cor 11:3; 2 Pet 1:10; Rev 2:4; 8:10;13:11)

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.  1 Cor 2:12-14

 In order to “rule on the earth”, God’s priests must be on the earth.  If we can shed the false belief that once the 144,000 are sealed in “heaven” they will remain there, we are then able to grasp how such “heavenly” angel/messenger/priests will be found ruling, teaching, and helping God’s future children on the earth.  (Mal 2:7; 1 Pet 2:5,9; Heb 1:14; Rev 5:9,10)  

We can comprehend God’s “new creation” as having two “births”; one by fleshly parents through Adam and Eve, (Gen 2:7) and one by spiritual parents.  (John 3:3,5; 1 Cor 15:50; John 15:45; 20:22; Gal 4:26)

Once Jesus was resurrected, he appeared many times to his disciples in the flesh; and just as easily, disappeared into the spirit realm.   His example set the precedence of what it means to be a “new creation”.  (Mark 16:12; John 21:14; 1 Cor 15:3-8) 

By combining this event with Pearl Doxsey's help from her article, “Who are the gods?”, we can visualize the 144,000 “angels” present not only in the spirit realm, but on earth as well:

The sons of God ("gods") inherit the promises given to Abraham. What promises are these?
"I will make you very fruitful (John 15:8) I will make nations of you (Rev 5:9,10), and kings will come from you (Rev 20:4; 1:5; 3:21; 19:16,15; 2:26,27)".


“Jacob had a dream in which he saw a stairway resting on the earth, with its top reaching to heaven, and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it. 
There above it stood the Lord, and he said: "I am the Lord, the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac. I will give you and your descendants the land on which you are lying 

(Ps 37:29; Heb 2:5,16; Gal 3:29; Heb 11:8-10; 13:14; Rev 21:2; Heb 12:22,23; Luke 10:20) (Gen.17:6). 

Your descendants will be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out to the west and to the east, to the north and to the south. All peoples on earth will be blessed through you and your offspring (Rev 22:2). I am with you and will watch over you wherever you go (Matt 28:20), and I will bring you back to this land (Rev 21:7). 


I will not leave you (John 14:18) until I have done what I have promised you (John 16:22). 
Jacob was afraid and said, “How awesome is this place (Heb 12:22,23,28)! This is none other than the house of God (1 Cor 3:9,16; Isa 56:7; Eph 2:19,10); this is the gate of heaven (Rev 11:6; Matt 16:19; Rev 3:12; John 10:9; 2 Cor 5:20)." (Gen.28:12-15,17)


"Jesus added, “Very truly I tell you, you will see ‘heaven open (Luke 24:32; Rev 2:17; Matt 13:11; Rev 4:1; 1:1) 
(John 3:12; 1 Cor 2:12,13; Col 3:2), and the angels of God ascending and descending (Heb 12:22; Eph 2:6; Rev 3:21) "on* (Greek--*"in service to") the Son of Man.” (John 1:51)

The "angels" (Lit. Greek, "messengers" – Isa 43:10,21; 1 Pet 2:9; Mal 2:7; Acts 1:8) referred to here, could not have served before the time of Christ (John 3:13)
Jesus specifically said that they are in service on "the Son of Man" (1 Cor 4:1). 
The "Son of Man" is Jesus in the flesh (John 1:14). Therefore, these angels serve Christ, after his coming down from heaven. 

To be a messenger of Christ ("ambassador") who harbors God's spirit of life within...
who has been made new (Rom 12:2; 8:11) as a part of God's new creation (2 Cor 5:17) by means of incorruptible seed, the Word of God (1 Pet 1:23; Luke 8:11)...

…who has been reborn as a Son of the Most High (John 3:3,5; Rom 8:16,17,19,28-30)...
who has been made an immovable pillar in the eternal heavenly Temple of God (Rev 3:12; Prov 9:1; Jer 1:18)...
...is a "god" (Ps 82:6; Rom 8:14; 1 Cor 8:5). 

I do hope readers here find this information to be a personal turning point as it was for me, in learning that both Christ and the 144,000 kings and priests/ Bride of Christ, will have access to heaven as well as on earth, and living among God’s future children in the Kingdom.

“You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden.” Matt 5:14

 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy Citythe new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husbandAnd I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. Rev 21:1-3

 “But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple” Rev 21:22

And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him. They shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads. There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever. Rev 22:3-5

Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 1 Cor 3:16

Pearl Doxsey: (type in her name and the title of the article in the search bar. The link should appear)

“End of the New Covenant”

“Those not anointed – what benefit now?”

“The Holy City”

 

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And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
“Let all God’s angels worship him.” (Heb.1:6)

"Jesus will again, be brought into the world. At that time, the totality of his angels/messengers, will worship him... and be in service to, the Son of Man."  Pearl Doxsey

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I guess - according to you -  we can throw out all the scriptures which indicate the anointed will have heavenly bodies such as 1 cor 15 and revelations - too many places to mention.  Not even those which show they will be changed in an instant.

And the scriptures in Hebrews which indicate that they will be priests in the heavenly temple of jehovah.  

Jehovah is perfect in logic, so why give a heavenly body when a physical body is more suited to the earth? 

The marriage of the lamb will take place where?

Did Jesus give up his earthly body to receive a heavenly  spiritual body? And did he really say to his disciples they will be with him where he is?

Agh, there are just too many scriptures which indicate it is a heavenly kingdom and heavenly rulership....and a heavenly priesthood - a function you have forgotten about by just wanting to " rule"......... .which tells me you are up to your same old, same old behaviours. 

You boast you are of the body of christ...... so which "body" do you belong to which has perfect unity? . How many members?  Where do you meet?  And are you and your adherents fulfilling the prophesy that the good news of the kingdom will be preached throughout the earth? 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Arauna said:

I guess - according to you -  we can throw out all the scriptures which indicate the anointed will have heavenly bodies such as 1 cor 15 and revelations - too many places to mention.  Not even those which show they will be changed in an instant.

Which scriptures, Arauna?  I’m open to discussing them with you.

As the “new creation”, they are both human and spirit, as Jesus showed his disciples when he appeared to them after his resurrection.  1 Pet 1:23; 2 Cor 5:17; Mark 16:12; John 21:14; 1 Cor 15:3-8

"For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters." Rom 8:29

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!" 2 Cor 5:17

" And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man."  1 Cor 15:49  NKJV

"And just as we have borne the image of the one who is made of earth, we will also bear the image of the heavenly." LEB

“You, however, are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to him.”  Rom 8:9

“But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly”  Heb 12:22

4 hours ago, Arauna said:

And the scriptures in Hebrews which indicate that they will be priests in the heavenly temple of jehovah.  

Jerusalem’s temple was made with stones (Matt 24:2), God’s Temple today in Christ, is made with “living stones”, who are also His priests.  Individually and unitedly as Christ’s Bride, they are the dwelling place of God’s Spirit, just as the old earthly temple was blessed with God’s Spirit.  But no longer is there any definitive example of a temple built in a definitive place.  The anointed priesthood are His Temple and House of God.  1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17; Eph 2:20-22  They are his spiritual  “organization”. 

4 hours ago, Arauna said:

Jehovah is perfect in logic, so why give a heavenly body when a physical body is more suited to the earth? 

This is why the new creation is both.  There are many scriptures in my post that show the Bride with Christ, coming down from heaven.  Rev 21:1-3

4 hours ago, Arauna said:

Did Jesus give up his earthly body to receive a heavenly  spiritual body? And did he really say to his disciples they will be with him where he is?

He had an earthly body when he appeared to his disciples. He also ate with them.  Should we limit God’s Hand to what He can accomplish with a “new creation”?  Was it limited when He created Adam and Eve and life in general?  Or, when Jesus appeared and disappeared when with his disciples?  For those who are “conformed to the image of His Son” wouldn’t they have the ability to do the same? 

4 hours ago, Arauna said:

Agh, there are just too many scriptures which indicate it is a heavenly kingdom and heavenly rulership....and a heavenly priesthood - a function you have forgotten about by just wanting to " rule"......... .which tells me you are up to your same old, same old behaviours. 

Oh Arauna, I am not the one saying I will be “co-ruler” with Christ before Christ makes the choice.  That would be your GB.  Matt 25:21  Besides, “co-ruler” isn’t a word found in the Bible.

4 hours ago, Arauna said:

You boast you are of the body of christ...... so which "body" do you belong to which has perfect unity? . How many members?  

There is only one anointed Body of Christ.  The scriptures are above in the post of what those members are.  (1 Cor 12).  Not all of the "virgins" are found to be wise.  Many prefer to "buy" their oil from one other than Christ.  Matt 25:8,9; Rev 13:Rev 3:18; Rev 13:11,12,15-17

4 hours ago, Arauna said:

Where do you meet?  And are you and your adherents fulfilling the prophesy that the good news of the kingdom will be preached throughout the earth? 

At the patience of the Librarian, I’ve posted links for anyone who cares to, can visit.   The “good news” is the restoration of “Jacob”/”Israel”.  Isa 44:23; Mal 3:1-3; Matt 17:11

…”the inhabited earth” (Matt 24:14) refers to God’s holy people.  John 14:23; 1 Cor 3:9  They are God’s owned land – “Israel”.  In the last days, they receive the message to “come out of her my people”.  Jer 25:29,30; Matt 10:23; Rev 11:1-3; 18:4-8

They and those with them, are drinking in the lie that an earthly organization leads one to salvation.  Rev 12:13-17; 2 Thess 2:9-12; Rev 13:1,2;18:4-8

 

"The Symbolic Earth"

    Hello guest!

 

 

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1 hour ago, Witness said:

the “new creation”, they are both human and spirit,

Yes, for now.... but they receive a heavenly body to do their job in heaven as a full complete body of 144000.  Why is this new heavenly  body necessary if they could do their job on earth......?? 

1 hour ago, Witness said:

had an earthly body when he appeared to his disciples.

Yes, to serve a purpose!  To show he was resurrected but his real home was in the presence of his father....... no longer here on earth. 

Jesus gave up his fleshly body when he died and was resurrected with so heavenly spirit body and immortality.

 

1 cor 15: 50

"But I tell you this brothers, flesh and blood cannot inherit gods kingdom."  Corinthians 15  goes on to contrast a fleshly body with a heavenly body. 

They will  fulfill the function of kings and priests when they have been sealed  and taken up to heaven.. when there is no man or woman ......... . They sing the new song in heaven..... not here on earth. 

I see the slave as "facilitators" at present. The elders are our servants or facilitators.  The humility that Jesus taught ..... to serve others.

Here is the definition

Facilitator:  to make an action or process easy or easier

Synonyms for facilitate: help, simplify, smooth, promote, 

The slave are not yet ruling - they still have to be approved to receive that immortality and incorruptability in that future heavenly body. 

 

It is those who remain humbly faithful to the end who will receive that crown.  Unfortunately some do not keep that unity and start beating up on others.....becoming Jezebels....... spoken of in Revelation. 

"And no-one was able to master the song except those 144000 who were bought from the earth"

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15 hours ago, Witness said:

 I wonder what the anointed JW women feel about a female’s apparent transition into a man, who are clones of each other.

 

15 hours ago, Witness said:

There is no Jew or Greek, slave or free, male or female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.  Gal 3:28

 

15 hours ago, Witness said:

Just as a bride and groom are not identical to each other, neither is Christ’s Bride of many members; either to Christ, or to one another, as the illustration erroneously shows.

Individuality and unity is what should be expected, and not clones as you said well. According to vision and description with word "bride" in the Bible, it would be more accurate to see artistic pictures of female persons (in heaven or earth) as 144000.

15 hours ago, Witness said:

they are reigning upon the earth”

I can say how don't see any special need for 144000 to be in Heaven for purpose to reign. That can be done also very good from Earth too. But maybe we can say, for fun, that problem is hidden in transferring power of spirit from Heaven to Earth. We been explained by WT Society how "miracles" stopped. In that context it seems how one of "miracle" is to be inspired by God also finished in 1 century. :))) Perhaps that could be reason why is important for 14400 to be lifted in Heaven. Because distance must be too far, too long to be handled by spirit. :)))) 

15 hours ago, Witness said:

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. - 1 Cor

 

15 hours ago, Witness said:

Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 1 Cor 3:16

This too verses show how distance is not obstacle for spirit's activity in 1 century. I really don't see why GB and Helpers making issue and such problem about "inspiration" and "be inspired" ?!! :)) 

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22 hours ago, Arauna said:

Yes, for now.... but they receive a heavenly body to do their job in heaven as a full complete body of 144000.  Why is this new heavenly  body necessary if they could do their job on earth......?? 

My opening scriptures were Rev 5:9,10.  If you will look again at the WT’s Greek Interlinear, it states that the kings/priests will reign ON the earth.  Do you want to change that truth, Arauna?  If you could only see that a “new creation” is both heavenly and human.  They will serve God in heaven and as the early priests were commissioned to do – teach and serve the people under the direction of their High Priest, Jesus Christ..  Mal 2:7; Rev 1:5,6; 7:15  Can God’s priesthood teach the people if they remain in a spiritual state that the rest of God’s children do not have access to? 

Can they say these words and be heard if they are out of contact with God’s future children?...

“And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And the one who hears, let him say, “Come!” And the one who is thirsty, let him come. The one who wants, let him take the water of life freely.”  Rev 22:17

Can “New Jerusalem” prepared as a bride, come down from heaven if it is to remain in heaven?  Rev 22:2

Remember, the “144,000” are the Temple, the Holy City.  They bring God’s Spirit/direction/guidance to His children. 

 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying,

Behold, the dwelling of God is with humanity,
and he will take up residence with them,
and they will be his people
and God himself will be with them.  Rev 21:3

The dwelling of God is the Temple/House of God – 1 Cor 3:16,17; 1 Cor 6:19; Eph 2:20-22

22 hours ago, Arauna said:

Yes, to serve a purpose!  To show he was resurrected but his real home was in the presence of his father....... no longer here on earth. 

So, his ability to come back to earth has now passed.  Is this what you are saying?  Where are the scriptures that support this?  I have provided scripture that show Jesus returning to the earth.

And after he had said these things, while they were watching, he was taken up, and a cloud received him from their sight. 10 And as they were staring into the sky while he was departing, behold, two men in white clothing stood by them 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand there lookin] into the sky? This Jesus who was taken up from you into heaven like this will come back in the same way you saw him departing into heaven!” Acts 1:9-11

And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, “And let all the angels of God worship him.”  Heb 1:6

 I am pretty amazed that Gen 28:12-17 and John 1:51 do not help you see that Jesus will be on the earth in the Kingdom.  I hope you actually read them.  A symbolic stairway in Jacob's vision is set up between heaven and earth.  The descendants of Jacob in Genesis, are “Israel”.  His descendants, the “144,000” inherit the earth.  Jesus referred to the stairway again in John, with his “angel”/messengers “ascending and descending” upon the Son of Man.  

22 hours ago, Arauna said:

They will fulfill the function of kings and priests when they have been sealed  and taken up to heaven.. 

An anointed, refined and found faithful can be sealed while on the earth.  Yet even so, their obedience only to Christ must continue until he returns.  1 Cor 1:21,22; Eph 1:13; 4:30

22 hours ago, Arauna said:

when there is no man or woman

Can you see you are creating a doctrine with no sound basis?  How do you know this?  You speak of unity among all in the organization, yet they are all individuals, both men and women.  You have even in error, designated that the organization's members are the Body of Christ.  But, when it comes the the true anointed Body of Christ you now say there will be no men or women, but clones as your GB portray them, once God's Kingdom arrives.  You are applying two sets of standards, which is hypocrisy.   

22 hours ago, Arauna said:

They sing the new song in heaven..... not here on earth. 

Yes they do...in heaven.  

22 hours ago, Arauna said:

I see the slave as "facilitators" at present. The elders are our servants or facilitators.  The humility that Jesus taught ..... to serve others.

Here is the definition

Facilitator:  to make an action or process easy or easier

Synonyms for facilitate: help, simplify, smooth, promote, 

You can see the slaves however you like, but I detect you looking through the lens of the GB who are telling all JWs lies about the anointed ones.  I see what scripture points out clearly, that the elders have usurped the role of God’s priesthood. Matt 24:15,16; 2 Thess 2:3,4; Rev 11:1-3; 13:6  Revelation’s “Jezebel” feeds God’s servants/slaves lies, and expects gratitude given to an organization, an idol.  Your very words speak their lies. The ancient Jezebel killed the prophets of God (1 Kings 18:13);  today’s “Jezebel” spiritually “kills” any anointed as well as their companions who see truth and reveal “her” lies.  Rev 13:11,14-17

But I have against you that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, the one who calls herself a prophetess,(Rev 13:11) and teaches and deceives my slaves to commit sexual immorality (spiritual harlotry) and to eat food sacrificed to idols.  Rev 2:20

For false messiahs and false prophets will appear, and will produce great signs and wonders in order to deceive, if possible, even the elect

 

 

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11 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

This too verses show how distance is not obstacle for spirit's activity in 1 century. I really don't see why GB and Helpers making issue and such problem about "inspiration" and "be inspired" ?!! :)) 

Nope we can’t blame their lack of inspiration by Holy Spirit on distance.  What they do blame it on, is Jesus. 

Of course, Jesus did not tell us that his faithful slave would produce perfect spiritual food. w17 February p. 26

In light of this admittance, what is absolutely ironic is the emphasis on “pure language”.

It is especially noteworthy that the language that God gives his servants is said to be pure. This is true, not because of grammatical construction, but because it gives evidence of moral and spiritual cleanness. There is no allowance in this language for lying, deceit, or a tricky tongue. Those who speak this language must always speak truth. w91 4/1 p. 24-25

The organization boasts that “pure language” is found in the organization, when at the same time its leaders fail in providing truth. 

Jesus did promise to teach his faithful servants “all things”, which would be “perfect spiritual food”.  John 14:26; 1 John 2:27  Since the GB cannot receive it, neither do they receive the “pure language” from God...or anyone who learns from them.    

 

 

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2 hours ago, Witness said:

did promise to teach his faithful servants “all things”,

So the " great crowd"  will learn all things by themselves?  They do not need an organized  place to attend meetings? .... which is instructed by the bible to attend so we can strengthen each other?

This is why I call you out as misleading and false....... where is your worldwide organization which is providing place for people of all nations to gather and worship jehovah?  And teach them live and neutrality so they truly view themselves as one nation with no borders dividing them......

5 hours ago, Witness said:

states that the kings/priests will reign ON the earth.  Do you want to change the truth?

There are so many other scriptures which indicate otherwise while you create an argument over the only scripture that 'may' indicate it because of an argument over a preposition....... are you changing the entire truth based on your 'desire' to start 'ruling now?

 

6 hours ago, Witness said:

God’s priesthood teach the people if they remain in a spiritual state that the rest of God’s children do not have access to? 

 We are being 'taught ' now by that 'slave'  you hate.     But you may be running ahead about the 1000 year reign..... don't you think?  

5 hours ago, Witness said:

you could only see that a “new creation” is both heavenly and human

Don't be patronizing to me..... I know that because of jehovahs spirit working in them.   But the bible clearly indicates that they will judge and rule when they are in heaven...... 

 

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23 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:
On 12/15/2019 at 2:28 AM, Witness said:

they are reigning upon the earth”

I can say how don't see any special need for 144000 to be in Heaven for purpose to reign. That can be done also very good from Earth too. But maybe we can say, for fun, that problem is hidden in transferring power of spirit from Heaven to Earth. We been explained by WT Society how "miracles" stopped. In that context it seems how one of "miracle" is to be inspired by God also finished in 1 century. :))) Perhaps that could be reason why is important for 14400 to be lifted in Heaven. Because distance must be too far, too long to be handled by spirit. :)))) 

On 12/15/2019 at 2:28 AM, Witness said:

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. - 1 Cor

The spirit of God is not teaching you very well on your own..... this I can see from your comments.

When people serve jehovah from free will they will not need anyone to watch them like a watchdog.  I think you guys can go and join  muslims or the Jews because they believe the ordinary people need someone superior over them to teach them everything.

In the new system, new books will be opened to teach us Jehovahs advanced ways but it will be easy to learn because you will have a willing bunch of free people who WANT to serve God.    To rule means to judge.  So they will judge those who do not cooperate willingly. 

Where there is self-sacrificing love , a person puts yourself last, then  you learn Jehovahs ways quickly and get more of his Spirit.

So your idea of teaching as a tool to lord it over others is bogus. 

.

 

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10 hours ago, Arauna said:

 I know that because of jehovahs spirit working in them.

This remind me on something. Each person who are able to recognize, to see holy spirit manifestation in other person (words and deeds) also need to have that same spirit. Or opposite spirit perhaps :))

Illustration: If i speak German i can recognize and understand all people who speaking German. If i don't speak German i can make guess how some language is German but will not be able to understand what German people saying. 

It is possible to make conclusion that GB is under influence of particular spirit, if you are under same spirit influence, too. 

But if you are under influence of other spirit you will see difference, too. 

 

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12 hours ago, Arauna said:

So the " great crowd"  will learn all things by themselves?

Rev 7:17 for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the [

    Hello guest!
]water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes.”

 

12 hours ago, Arauna said:

They do not need an organized  place to attend meetings? ....

Nope

Matt 18: 20 For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst.”

 

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

When people serve jehovah from free will they will not need anyone to watch them like a watchdog.

Why the insistence on no beards? Not reporting CSA? The constant hounding for money? Judicial committees for reading unapproved material? Not getting enough hours? Not showing up to EVERY meeting? Suits and ties? No celebration of birthdays? Making sure you don't send your kids to college? The hospital liaison group, I mean if this isn't a watchdog I don't know what is! Constantly they are there to make sure you don't take blood. If it is free will, why are they there? 

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23 hours ago, Arauna said:

So the " great crowd"  will learn all things by themselves?

“After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”

 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”

14 And I said to him, "Sir, you know.”

So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them.”  Rev 7:9,10,13-15

The “great crowd” are the anointed remnant/priesthood that are found faithful after Armageddon.  Only God’s designated priests were allowed to serve in God’s temple on earth.  It is the same in heaven.  They are God’s “dwelling”/ “living stones” of the Temple.  1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17

A false christ/ false prophet is not sent by God, but by Satan to mislead the “elect”. Matt 24:24; Rev 13:11,12 Jesus sends those whom HE chooses. John 13:20   He gave us warning of the possible “wicked slave” who would spiritually “eat and drink with drunkards”. (elders, helpers “drunk” on the combined teachings of the GB and their own)  Matt 24:48-51  A faithful slave would not condemn ("beat") his fellow slaves for questioning his faulty/changed teachings.  He would not judge them as spiritually “dead” as the GB direct the elders to carry out, and have done, over and over for years.  He would welcome all offers of spiritual provisions from his fellow slaves.  Simply because the GB are lording it over their “brothers” in Christ, doesn’t mean there isn’t a “faithful slave” whom Jesus has chosen to care for his belongings.  Matt 17:11; John 13:20; Rev 11:1-3   The difference between the GB and a faithful slave sent by Christ, is that one leads the listener to Christ – not to an organization, and not to themselves.  

23 hours ago, Arauna said:

They do not need an organized  place to attend meetings? .... which is instructed by the bible to attend so we can strengthen each other?

All you see is what the WT offers you.  As long as you stay put in that environment you will not know how those who have left the organization worship, or that they may have found an authentic “faithful slave” with truth to offer. 

23 hours ago, Arauna said:

This is why I call you out as misleading and false....... where is your worldwide organization which is providing place for people of all nations to gather and worship jehovah?

Are JWs worshiping God whole-souled, or has their dedication to a “worldwide organization” led them away from true worship?  Those who “worship” the Beast/organization that is guided by a false prophet (Rev 13:11) say, “Who is like the beast, and who is able to make war with him?”  This is the same Beast that overcomes the anointed through blasphemy targeted against them.  Rev 13:4-7

23 hours ago, Arauna said:

 We are being 'taught ' now by that 'slave'  you hate.     But you may be running ahead about the 1000 year reign..... don't you think?  

Can truth/light reside with falsehood/darkness? 2 Cor 6:14 Would Jesus, who is Truth, allow his servants to spread falsehoods worldwide, especially when he promised the Helper would tell them “all things”?  John 14:2 You do realize that every piece of wrongful teaching from the GB reached all corners available at the time of its distribution?  Millions of people read them, JWs and those not JWs.  Doesn’t the fact that the organization exposed their list of falsehoods/”beliefs clarified" prove beyond a doubt that Jesus’ Spirit is not found in the hearts of your leaders?   It truly is slander against the Son of God to believe he condones falsehoods. 

Telling truth does not equate to hate!  Did Jesus hate the Pharisees when he told them truth?  You speak of hate frequently; perhaps it is you who hate those who challenge your organization and leaders?

The thousand year reign of Christ began in the first century. Ps 110:1,2; 1 Cor 15:25 The organization’s appearance on the worldly scene comes with it, the development and eventual presence of the “man of lawlessness”/Beast of Rev 13:1,2,18; 2 Thess 2:3,4; Matt 24:15,16.   Rev 18:4-8

23 hours ago, Arauna said:

Don't be patronizing to me..... I know that because of jehovahs spirit working in them.   But the bible clearly indicates that they will judge and rule when they are in heaven...... 

“when”…you are as confident of their destiny as they are, so much so that their address is "1 Kings Drive".  What did Paul say about such individuals?  

"Oh, you are already filled! You have already become rich! You have begun to reign without us! If only that were really true, so that we could reign with you!" 1 Cor 4:8

 

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14 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

Rev 7:17 for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the [

    Hello guest!
]water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes.”

Exactly! The question was to get you to think!  You answered correctly.   .... we will not need the 144000 amongs us to teach us on earth.... gods spirit will guide us....... 

14 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

The hospital liaison group, I mean if this isn't a watchdog I don't know what is! Constantly

You read into it motives which are not there. If they did not help the brothers - then people like you would say they are wicked and do not have gods spirit and when they do appoint a committee to help - then they are controlling and watching brothers........ as I said before..... do you ever think of your reasonableness?  A sign of gods spirit is love and reasonableness.

 

5 hours ago, Witness said:

before

Before the throne.  The earth is the footstool of the throne- read Isaiah 66:1.

5 hours ago, Witness said:

As long as you stay put in that environment you will not know how those who have left the organization worship, or that they may have found an authentic “faithful slave” with truth to offer. 

On 12/16/2019 at 8:44 AM, Arauna said:

This is why I call you out as misleading and false....... where is your worldwide organization which is providing place for people of all nations to gather and worship jehovah?

Are JWs worshiping God whole-souled, or has their dedication to a “worldwide organization” led them away from true worship?  Those who “worship” the Beast/organization that is guided by a false prophet (Rev 13:11) say, “Who is like the beast, and who is able to make war with him?”  This is the same Beast that overcomes the anointed through blasphemy targeted against them.  Rev 13:4-7

On 12/16/2019 at 8:44 AM, Arauna said:

Can truth/light reside with falsehood/darkness? 2 Cor 6:14 Would Jesus, who is Truth, allow his servants to spread falsehoods worldwide, especially when he promised the Helper would tell them “all things”?  John 14:2 You do realize that every piece of wrongful teaching from the GB reached all corners available at the time of its distribution?  Millions of people read them, JWs and those not JWs.  Doesn’t the fact that the organization exposed their list of falsehoods/”beliefs clarified" prove beyond a doubt that Jesus’ Spirit is not found in the hearts of your leaders?   It truly is slander against the Son of God to believe he condones falsehoods. 

Telling truth does not equate to hate!  Did Jesus

Patronizing me again - you are the great false prophet that  is led  by your own "holy" spirit  to say that I cannot think for myself.  So you are blessed by your great visions to think for yourself better than I do?   

You say the anointed are the great crowd -  just this sentence had me  realize what I am dealing with -   it is so ludicrous.  I am now more sure than ever that I am dealing with a self-appointed religious nut.  Sorry - to tell it so rudely -   you are totally disregarding the forecourt of the original temple ....... so you interpretation of this also incorrect........ and you speak down to me asif I am ignorant? 

I do not profess to be anointed. But "stupid" people like me have more knowledge of the bible by listening to the JW slave than you  do -   You are self-appointed teachers - who (in your extreme arrogance) is opposing the true slave .......whom you accuse OCD-style of arrogance....... and all this is  due to your own desire to have prominence to teach!     It is not a out the teachings itself - it is all about the prominence!  Because your interpretation of scripture does not impress me at all! 

 

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14 hours ago, Shiwiii said:
On 12/16/2019 at 8:44 AM, Arauna said:

They do not need an organized  place to attend meetings? ....

Nope

Matt 18: 20 For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst.”

We are instructed in the bible not to forsake meetings. My reasoning is this:  - If they are the true  "slave"  as they say they are:   Have they got groups of people in most countries who gather together ?  Who all believe the same as they do? In order to form the 'nation' from all tribes and languages that will appear in the time of the end ? According to Isaaih 2: 2-4

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17 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

possible to make conclusion that GB is under influence of particular spirit, if you are under same spirit influence, too. 

Definitely. So when I see unreasonableness, only hateful criticism (not constructive criticism),  lies about what JWs teach,  I can go on about the negatives.......then I realize there is a "spirit" allright - but not coming from Jehovah.  John 8:44 apply to these people.

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7 hours ago, Arauna said:

Before the throne.  The earth is the footstool of the throne- read Isaiah 66:1.

  12 hours ago, Witness said:

 

14 hours ago, Witness said:

Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them.”  Rev 7:9,10,13-15

The “great crowd” are the anointed remnant/priesthood that are found faithful after Armageddon.  Only God’s designated priests were allowed to serve in God’s temple on earth.  It is the same in heaven.  They are God’s “dwelling”/ “living stones” of the Temple.  1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17

 "But you and your sons will carry out your priestly responsibilities for everything concerning the altar and for what is inside the curtain, and you will do that work. I am giving you the work of the priesthood as a gift,* but an unauthorized person who comes near the sanctuary will be put to death."  Num 18:7

 

Pearl Doxsey, Who "renders sacred service, day and night" in God's Temple?   

4womaninthewilderness blogspot

 

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1 hour ago, Witness said:

day and night in His temple.

There is the most holy where the high priest (Jesus) went in;  and the Holy place where only  the underpriests served.....they also served in the priestly courtyard.

I said to you in my previous answer that you ignore the other parts of the temple.......... 

Underpriests  went into the....court of priests with the altar...... so where did the ordinary folk go?  The inner "courtyard of Israel" for the Hebrew men   - where they participated and watched the priests ( women originally were allowed in this courtyard as well but were later separated in the court of women (outer court).  Women were required to hear scriptures read.

And later the most outer court for the gentiles/proselites was added by Herod.  This is where Jesus taught and where the cleansing of the temple took place - the area where they were selling animals. 

This area symbolises the earthly sheep who also serve day and night in this temple.....as the sun never sets on our prayers and service...

 

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14 hours ago, Witness said:

Would Jesus, who is Truth, allow his servants to spread falsehoods worldwide, especially when he promised the Helper would tell them “all things”? 

Wait a moment. Jesus gave specific name for holy spirit - Helper, with specific Task.  But the helper, the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name, that one will teach you all things and bring back to your minds all the things I told you.  -John 14, NWT

Is this "coincidence or for purpose" that GB have human Helper/s and not spiritual Helper??

Is this "coincidence or for purpose" that GB used this specific Bible wording, and gave this "title" to this people who are not "anointed" ??

Is this what Jesus meant, how Father will give human helpers who working in various Committees of WT Corporation??

:)))

9 hours ago, Arauna said:

Before the throne.  The earth is the footstool of the throne- read Isaiah 66:1.

After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. - Rev 7

-------------------------------------------------------------

And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, - Rev 14

I am pretty stupid sometimes, but after reading Revelation i have to notice how BOTH GROUP are BEFORE THRONE.

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35 minutes ago, Arauna said:

I guess you did not read Isaiah 66:1

The highest heavens belong to the Lord,
    but the earth he has given to mankind. - Psalms 115 16

 As for the heavens, they belong to Jehovah, But the earth he has given to the sons of men. -NWT

 

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52 minutes ago, Arauna said:

I guess you did not read Isaiah 66:1

Isa 66:1,2:  This is what the Lord says:

“Heaven is my throne,
    and the earth is my footstool.
Where is the house you will build for me?
    Where will my resting place be?

Has not my hand made all these things,
    and so they came into being?”
declares the Lord.

These are the ones I look on with favor:
    those who are humble and contrite in spirit,
    and who tremble at my word.”

 

Ps 132:7-9,13,14:  “Let us go to His dwelling place,
    let us worship at his footstool, saying,
‘Arise, Lord, and come to your resting place,
    you and the ark of your might.
May your priests be clothed with your righteousness;
    may your faithful people sing for joy.’”

For the Lord has chosen Zion,
    he has desired it for His dwelling, saying,
14 This is my resting place for ever and ever;
    here I will sit enthroned, for I have desired it.

 

Ps 15 - Lord, who may dwell in your sacred tent?
    Who may live on your holy mountain?

The one whose walk is blameless,
    who does what is righteous,
    who speaks the truth from their heart;
whose tongue utters no slander,
    who does no wrong to a neighbor,
    and casts no slur on others;
who despises a vile person
    but honors those who fear the Lord;
who keeps an oath even when it hurts,
    and does not change their mind;
who lends money to the poor without interest;
    who does not accept a bribe against the innocent.

Whoever does these things
    will never be shaken..

God’s dwelling/”earth” (inhabited home)/footstool/priesthood/144,000/Bride..is Zion. 

“The children of your oppressors will come bowing before you;
    all who despise you will bow down at your feet
and will call you the City of the Lord,
    Zion of the Holy One of Israel.

15 “Although you have been forsaken and hated,
    with no one traveling through,
I will make you the everlasting pride
    and the joy of all generations. 

“The glory of Lebanon will come to you,
    the juniper, the fir and the cypress together,
to adorn my sanctuary;
    and I will glorify the place for my feet.”  Isa 60:14,15,13

 

 “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands.”  Acts 17:24

“Don’t you yourselves know that you are God’s sanctuary and that the Spirit of God lives in you? If anyone destroys God’s sanctuary, God will destroy him; for God’s sanctuary is holy, and that is what you are.”  1 Cor 3:16,17

"Then I looked, and there on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with Him were 144,000 who had His name and His Father’s name written on their foreheads."  Rev 14:1

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

The highest heavens belong to the Lord,
    but the earth he has given to mankind. - Psalms 115 16

 As for the heavens, they belong to Jehovah, But the earth he has given to the sons of men. -NWT

Yes, the literal earth, which takes us back to Gen. 28:10-17.  Jesus, as the promised seed and the Son of Man is the first to inherited the earth.  He shares this inheritance firstly, with his brothers/144,000.  With the advent of God's children in the Kingdom, they too, "inherit the earth".  

"Who Inherit the Earth?" Pearl Doxsey

 

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1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

the earth he has given to the sons of men. -NW

Bingo!  Not to Angel's or people with heavenly bodies...... to those made for earth!

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Hey... whazzup folks !

Jehovah and people of similar ethereal substance obviously do not need this physical Universe .... NONE of it.

Since by ACTUAL TEST, confirmed and documented extensively, mankind has crossed 240,000 miles of hard vacuum and landed on the Earth's Moon ... MANY times ... at at my last count we had NINE robots running around on the surface of Mars, and have explored the Sol Solar System, and have several active probes (Voyager 1, and Voyager 2) in Interstellar Space between the stars,  it seems quite clear to me, in fact IRREFUTABLE, that how we should interpret such words and phrases as "Earth, and "... vicinity of the Earth", it includes the entirety of the physical Universe.

Of course, to get there, you would need people that would live forever, as there is no evidence for faster than light travel, and psychologically, time would need to slow down as your Starship approached  significantly to the speed of light.

Cool, eh?

To the best of our knowledge and belief, that is what Jehovah has planned for flesh and blood people, and that is precisely how the physics of space travel actually works.

As Marvin Webster sez: "Y'all think about it."

 

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15 hours ago, Arauna said:

You read into it motives which are not there.

you can believe that if you wish, but I have seen it first hand! 

15 hours ago, Arauna said:

If they did not help the brothers - then people like you would say they are wicked and do not have gods spirit and when they do appoint a committee to help - then they are controlling and watching brothers

what kind of help are you referring to? please explain this "help"

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2 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

what kind of help are you referring to? please explain this "help"

They go to doctors and hospitals to explain our blood stance.   They visit brothers in hospital awhen they are seriously ill.  They sit with you and support you during serious surgeries when you request assistance. 

I experienced this help during the time my daughter had her cancer surgery.   I was not coerced by any one on my stance regarding blood.   So the assumption above that they act as watchdogs is ludicrous...... it is assigning bad motives where there are none.

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20 hours ago, Arauna said:

They go to doctors and hospitals to explain our blood stance. 

Why cant the regular RnF do that for themselves?  is it perhaps because some wouldn't tell anyone? 

 

20 hours ago, Arauna said:

 They visit brothers in hospital awhen they are seriously ill.  They sit with you and support you during serious surgeries when you request assistance. 

commendable. 

 

20 hours ago, Arauna said:

 So the assumption above that they act as watchdogs is ludicrous...... it is assigning bad motives where there are none.

As I have said before, I've seen it FIRST HAND. So maybe not in your experience because they already got you to conform, but that doesn't make it so for others. 

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On 12/17/2019 at 11:42 AM, Arauna said:

Bingo!  Not to Angel's or people with heavenly bodies...... to those made for earth!

 

Jesus is not only called the Son of God, but the Son of Man. 

Then they all said, “Are You then the Son of God?” So He said to them, “You rightly say that I am.”  John 22:70

In heaven, he is referred to as the Son of Man:

 “Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle.”  Rev 14:14

If the Son of Man is Jesus in his fleshly body when on earth, ( John 1:14) why isn’t he called the Son of God only, when in heaven?

He is the first of the new creation, with both human and spiritual qualities.  1 Cor 15:49

God has other “sons” in the image of Christ.

“Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.”  1 John 3:1,2

 

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On 12/19/2019 at 1:11 AM, Shiwiii said:

have said before, I've seen it FIRST HAND. So

When my daughter had her cancer operation I had a couple sit with me.  I explained my stance to the doctor myself.  I had no pressure. BUT  this emotion is in the eye of the beholder.... it says a lot about you. 

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1 hour ago, Arauna said:

When my daughter had her cancer operation I had a couple sit with me.  I explained my stance to the doctor myself.  I had no pressure. BUT  this emotion is in the eye of the beholder.... it says a lot about you. 

I sure hope it gives you the exact impression of my experience. I think it does, or you wouldn't be defending them by means of YOUR experience to try and downplay what I have had happen. 

 

Surgery is never easy and on your child it is even less so. So the similarities between our experiences seem to end there. 

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On 12/17/2019 at 9:22 AM, Arauna said:

There is the most holy where the high priest (Jesus) went in;  and the Holy place where only  the underpriests served.....they also served in the priestly courtyard.

I said to you in my previous answer that you ignore the other parts of the temple.......... 

Underpriests  went into the....court of priests with the altar...... so where did the ordinary folk go?  The inner "courtyard of Israel" for the Hebrew men   - where they participated and watched the priests ( women originally were allowed in this courtyard as well but were later separated in the court of women (outer court).  Women were required to hear scriptures read.

And later the most outer court for the gentiles/proselites was added by Herod.  This is where Jesus taught and where the cleansing of the temple took place - the area where they were selling animals. 

This area symbolises the earthly sheep who also serve day and night in this temple.....as the sun never sets on our prayers and service...

 

  1 Chron 23:13,14:

“The sons of Amram; Aaron and Moses: and Aaron was separated, that he should sanctify the most holy things, he and his sons for ever (“everlasting”), to burn incense before (“in the presence of”) the LORD, to minister unto him, and to bless in his name for ever.” 

"So you shall appoint Aaron and his sons that they may keep their priesthood, but the layman who comes near shall be put to death." Num 3:10

 

“And you yourselves, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.  But you are a chosen race,[

    Hello guest!
] a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s possession, so that you may proclaim the virtues of the one who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light”  1 Pet 2:5,9

Rev 7:9, 13-15:

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before (“in the presence of”) the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Therefore are they before (“in the presence of”)  the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

 

In the organization, the anointed priesthood has been expelled from their duties of offering “incense”, or sacrifices of praise to God, presently, and obviously through the spurious teaching of who comprise the "great multitude" that serve God "in the presence of" His throne in heaven.   Heb 13:15; 1 Pet 2:5  Counterfeit priests have filled God’s Temple with abominable teachings and sacrificial offerings to an idol. Ezek 44:6-9; 13:8,10; Rev 13:1,4-7, 15, 17,18

 

 

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3 hours ago, Witness said:

before

Before the throne is on earth...... and you can offer incense (prayers) anywhere you are. You need not do it in front of brothers.

It is very telling that you do not talk about the courtyard  of the temple where the ordinary folk could pray, listen to the reading of the law and watch procedures in the temple - who do they represent in the greater fulfillment?

Seeing your repetition of the same old , same old condemnation tells me you are very stubborn and you are not open to anything but your own opinion - which is not even close to the truth.

 

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3 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Before the throne is on earth...... and you can offer incense (prayers) anywhere you are. You need not do it in front of brothers.

It is very telling that you do not talk about the courtyard  of the temple where the ordinary folk could pray, listen to the reading of the law and watch procedures in the temple - who do they represent in the greater fulfillment?

Seeing your repetition of the same old , same old condemnation tells me you are very stubborn and you are not open to anything but your own opinion - which is not even close to the truth.

 

I think I have given you enough scriptures, to show me you reject God's word and accept men's doctrine based on...what?

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Just now, Witness said:

word and accept men's doctrine based on...what?

I do not just look at the scriptures you quoted but also  the ones referring to the other parts of the spiritual temple for one.   Why do you not explain the courtyard of the temple but only the areas the priests went into?  This area also has a greater fulfillment ...... 

You accuse me of listening to a bunch of old men - I happen to agree with them and disagree with you because you are not honest...... you only give answers to the parts that suits you. .... and leave out some inconvenient facts. 

As I have said before - it is what deceivers do NOT tell you that is important.  They conveniently have amnesia regarding most relevant facts. 

 

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5 hours ago, Arauna said:

Why do you not explain the courtyard of the temple but only the areas the priests went into?  This area also has a greater fulfillment ...... 

 

5 hours ago, Arauna said:

and you can offer incense (prayers) anywhere you are. You need not do it in front of brothers.

Yes, we are expected to offer prayers to God, but 1 Chron 23:13,14 has to do with sacrifices offered on behalf of the people, by the priests.  The early priesthood is from the tribe of Levi.  From that tribe, Aaron’s descendants were chosen by God to serve as priests in the temple… 

“The sons of Amram; Aaron and Moses: and Aaron was separated, that he should sanctify the most holy things, he and his sons for ever (“everlasting”), to burn incense before (“in the presence of”) the LORD, to minister unto him, and to bless in his name for ever.” 1 Chron 23:13,14

However, the Levites other than the priests, were also given specific tasks pertaining to the temple and support for the priesthood  – 1 Chron 23:28-32

What happened when Korah a Levite, said to Moses and Aaron…

 “You take too much upon yourselves!  All of the community is holy, every one of them, and Yahweh is in their midst, so why do you raise yourselves over the assembly of Yahweh?”

 When Moses heard this, he fell on his face. And he said to Korah and to his entire company, saying, “Tomorrow morning Yahweh will make known who is his and who is holy, and he will bring him near to him, whomever he chooses he will bring near to him. Do this: take for yourselves censers, Korah and all of your company;[

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tomorrow put fire in them and place incense on them beforeYahweh; the man whom Yahweh chooses will be the holy one. You take too much upon yourselves, sons of Levi!”  Numbers chapter 16

For their assumption that anyone could serve God in His temple as a priest, Korah and his men lost their lives. 

5 hours ago, Arauna said:

Before the throne is on earth.

Therefore are they before (“in the presence of”)  the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. Rev 7:15

It takes place in God's Temple.  The scriptures explain this holy priesthood IS the Temple, that they are “living stones” of God’s Temple, “pillars” of this Temple, the dwelling of God’s Spirit…AND…the Bride of Christ that “comes down from heaven” to be among mankind. 

1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17; 2 Cor 6:16; Eph 2:19-22; Rev 3:12; 21:2

5 hours ago, Arauna said:

You accuse me of listening to a bunch of old men -

I've never called them a "bunch of old men" - false messiahs, false prophets, yes.  Matt 24:24; Rev 13:11

5 hours ago, Arauna said:

As I have said before - it is what deceivers do NOT tell you that is important.  They conveniently have amnesia regarding most relevant facts. 

That's very true.  In the last days, there is an organization (Beast from the Sea), "false prophet" (Beast from the Earth) and the "dragon" who deceive  the "kings of the earth" (Jesus' "kings", Rev 1:5) with demonic expressions.  Rev 13:1,2,11; 16:13,14; Matt 24:15   

The GB have most conveniently misled the anointed about their duties as priests.  They have convinced them that the elders must "represent them" as priests, fully ignoring the lesson of Korah.

 

 

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On 12/20/2019 at 10:41 AM, Arauna said:

So explain your personal experience in this matter which contradicts mine.

does it really matter to you what the experience is? Would it change your mind? 

no, and no are the answers, so it is a bit pointless to discuss it with you. 

 

in a nutshell, the two jw guys had to be present and hovering anytime the doctor came in to discuss procedures and we had plenty of family there already, so their presence was not needed. 

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11 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

two jw guys had to be present and hovering anytime the doctor came in to discuss procedures and we had plenty of family there already, so their presence was not needed. 

Maybe they came to assist. How did they know the person was in hospital?   One of your family members must have notified them and they came to assist.....

You saw it as the FBI coming to spy and check up on you..... it is your own perception it seems. Therefore the resentment..... 

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11 hours ago, Arauna said:

You saw it as the FBI coming to spy and check up on you..... it is your own perception it seems. Therefore the resentment..... 

your speculation is just that, yours.

My experiences out weigh your speculation. Maybe you haven't had the same experience. Maybe you enjoy those people looking over your shoulder and nudging you to do what they want. Or maybe you just don't see it yet. Doesn't really matter, what does matter is that I am speaking from experience. That is something you can listen to, or stick your fingers in your ears and yell "la,la,la,la". 

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26 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

Maybe you enjoy those people looking over your shoulder and nudging you to

I am not a weakling, I stand on my own two feet. However, I appreciate it when someone shows me a kindness and gives help. I am not  suspicious of  kind acts just because people  are JW or not of my faith.

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1 hour ago, Arauna said:

I am not a weakling, I stand on my own two feet. However, I appreciate it when someone shows me a kindness and gives help. I am not  suspicious of  kind acts just because people  are JW or not of my faith.

you are totally missing the point, but that is because you see it as just support. 

On 12/21/2019 at 1:26 PM, Arauna said:

Before the throne is on earth......

Insight on the Scriptures Volume 2 p.1081- "The curtain was a barrier separating the Holy from the Most Holy; in Jesus’ case it represented “his flesh,” which he had to lay down in sacrifice, giving it up forever, to be able to enter heaven, the antitypical Most Holy. Anointed Christians must also pass the fleshly barrier that separates them from access to God’s presence in heaven. Consistently, the Holy represents their condition as spirit-begotten sons of God, with heavenly life in view, and they will attain to that heavenly reward when their fleshly bodies are laid aside in death."

The Kingdom Interlinear of the Greek Scriptures, says the sanctuary= divine habitation.

Rev.7:15  For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His sanctuary; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them.

(DIVINE HABITATION- Kingdom Interlinear)

 

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2 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

totally missing the point, but that is because you see it as just support. 

If if people of other religions assist me I do not treat them suspiciously  - that was the point.

 

2 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

Anointed Christians must also pass the fleshly barrier that separates them from access to God’s presence in heav

Exactly!  They will be priests in heaven! Not on earth! The flesh was the barrier

Revelation 20: 1-3 7,8  speaks of those people who come through the great tribulation  here on EARTH.  "Devil and Satan, and bound him for 1,000 years.  3 And he hurled him into the abyss and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not mislead the nations anymore until the 1,000 years were ended. After this he must be released for a little while.       .......Now as soon as the 1,000 years have ended, Satan will be released from his prison,  8 and he will go out to mislead those nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Maʹgog, to gather them together for the war. The number of these is as the sand of the sea.

These people on earth are NOT priests who already have received immortality and incorruptability....... because they will be tested as perfect people at end of 1000 years. They will have the same tests as Adam did as perfect person.

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On 12/24/2019 at 2:21 PM, Arauna said:

If if people of other religions assist me I do not treat them suspiciously  - that was the point.

They provided NO assistance, contrary to what you may believe. They were there making sure no blood was used by means of comments. Spin that however you want. 

 

On 12/24/2019 at 2:21 PM, Arauna said:

Exactly!  They will be priests in heaven! Not on earth! The flesh was the barrier

Doesn't Rev 7:9 speak of these same people? This is confirmed by rev 7:13&14. 

Did you happen to look up what the word sanctuary means in the Kingdom Interlinear of the Greek Scriptures?

what does it say? 

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On 12/24/2019 at 2:21 PM, Arauna said:

These people on earth are NOT priests who already have received immortality and incorruptability

So did you look up what it says in the Kingdom Interlinear of the Greek Scriptures about the word sanctuary? 

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7 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

what it says in the Kingdom Interlinear of the Greek Scriptures about the word sanctuary? 

 Do you remember the subject  we were talking about?  If I remember correctly, you yourself quoted a scripture which showed that there is a replica in heaven of the earthly sanctuary in Israel's time and you quoted the scripture which says that  "flesh" is a barrier (curtain) to the heavenly sanctuary.  Only the high priest and under priests entered in this area in Israel's time.

Jesus gave up his "fleshly barrier"  and went went to " heaven"  in the heavenly sanctuary  and offered up his randsom to jehovah. It was accepted and holy spirit poured out on the 50th  day on his disciples on earth.   They were anointed as future kings and priests but had to die faithful  to death  and give up their earthly flesh to go into heavenly sanctuary to serve as king and priest. (Same as jesus).

The lady on this forum is still in flesh yet she wants to serve as a royal priest right now.  She rants against the GB because they are denying her royal priesthood because she cannot do her royal duties right now in the flesh here on earth.  Does it sound logical in the light of the scripture you quoted?

 

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1 hour ago, Arauna said:

The lady on this forum is still in flesh yet she wants to serve as a royal priest right now.  She rants against the GB because they are denying her royal priesthood because she cannot do her royal duties right now in the flesh here on earth.  Does it sound logical in the light of the scripture you quoted?

WHAT?  I'm sorry, but you are lying, totally.    Do you really think I care what the GB thinks of me?  What do you think of the anointed in your organization vs. the elder body?  THAT is what matters.  The "Gentile" elder body is "defiling" the Temple of God.  Rev 11:1,2

1 Cor 3:16,17 -  Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.

You're forgetting what a "new creation" is - both spirit and human.  Even while on the earth, God's spirit dwells in them.  

 2 Cor 5:16,17 - Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

royal duties right now in the flesh here on earth. 

Nothing about the following scriptures shows an anointed one must WAIT to act as a priest while on earth:

"Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, 5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

"But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light" 1 Pet 2:5,9

 "But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,  to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,  to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel."  Heb 12:22-24

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13 hours ago, Arauna said:

Do you remember the subject  we were talking about?  If I remember correctly, you yourself quoted a scripture which showed that there is a replica in heaven of the earthly sanctuary in Israel's time and you quoted the scripture which says that  "flesh" is a barrier (curtain) to the heavenly sanctuary.  

no, I quoted the wt. 

 

You still haven't answered the question. What does the Kingdom Interlinear of the Greek Scriptures say about the word sanctuary? 

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On 12/24/2019 at 11:29 AM, Shiwiii said:

DIVINE HABITATION- Kingdom Interlinear)

Thanks for this, Shiwiii.  I looked up Rev 7:14,15 myself in WT's Interlinear and then went to Strong's 3485 for the meaning of the word, "ναῷ":

naós (from naiō, "to dwell") – properly, a sanctuary (divine dwelling-place); a temple (sacred abode), the place of divine manifestation. 

    Hello guest!
 (naós) refers to the sanctuary (the Jewish Temple proper), i.e. with just its two inner compartments (rooms). 

It proves not only that the anointed are the "dwelling"/"divine habitation" of God's Spirit, (1 Cor 3:16,17), the "temple"/"divine habitation" of 2 Cor 6:16, and the mobile "tabernacle"/"sanctuary"/"tent, booth, dwelling" of God's Spirit, that is blasphemed by the Beast/organization in Rev 13:6,7.  (STRONGS NT 4633: σκηνή)

 

 

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4 hours ago, Witness said:

Thanks for this, Shiwiii.  I looked up Rev 7:14,15 myself in WT's Interlinear and then went to Strong's 3485 for the meaning of the word, "ναῷ":

naós (from naiō, "to dwell") – properly, a sanctuary (divine dwelling-place); a temple (sacred abode), the place of divine manifestation. 

    Hello guest!
 (naós) refers to the sanctuary (the Jewish Temple proper), i.e. with just its two inner compartments (rooms). 

It proves not only that the anointed are the "dwelling"/"divine habitation" of God's Spirit, (1 Cor 3:16,17), the "temple"/"divine habitation" of 2 Cor 6:16, and the mobile "tabernacle"/"sanctuary"/"tent, booth, dwelling" of God's Spirit, that is blasphemed by the Beast/organization in Rev 13:6,7.  (STRONGS NT 4633: σκηνή)

 

 

not only this but Divine Habitation is where the great crowd is according to Revelation 7:15. "in His temple" 

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      The dead will be brought back to life.—John 5:28, 29
      No one will get sick.—Isaiah 33:24
      Everyone on earth will have plenty to eat.—Psalm 72:16.                          The Bible does more than that. It tells us what we need to know in order to be truly happy and enjoy life right now. Think for a moment about the things that make you worry. These may include money or family matters, bad health, or the death of someone you love. The Bible can help you to cope with these problems, and it can comfort you by answering such questions as these:
      Why do we suffer?
      How can we cope with our problems?
      Can our family be happy?
      What happens to us when we die?
      Will we ever see our dead loved ones again?
      Why can we be confident that God will do everything that he has promised? Go to JW.Org to learn these answers. 

    • Guest Nicole
      By Guest Nicole
      Jeni Stepien with Arthur Thomas after he walked her down the aisle at her wedding last Friday. CreditLauren Demby
      It’s a bittersweet wedding story a decade in the making: Nearly 10 years after Jeni Stepien’s father was killed, the man who received her father’s donated heart traveled from New Jersey to Pennsylvania to walk her down the aisle.
      “The murder and the wedding happened within a three-block radius” in the town of Swissvale, Pa., Ms. Stepien, an elementary schoolteacher, said in an interview on Monday, as she was about to board a plane for her honeymoon. “And I was just thinking, ‘My dad is here with us, and this man is here with us because of us.’ ”
      Bride Walks Down the Aisle With Man Who Was Saved by Her Father's Heart Donation Video by ABC News
      This story began in September 2006, when her father, Michael Stepien, was walking home from his job as head chef at a restaurant. Mr. Stepien, 53, was cutting through an alley when he was robbed at gunpoint by a 16-year-old, who shot him in the head at close range, she said. Leslie L. Brown was convicted of second-degree murder in the killing and is serving 40 years to life in prison, according to news reports.
      As her father lay dying at a hospital, Ms. Stepien said, her family “decided to accept the inevitable” and donated his organs through an organization called the Center for Organ Recovery and Education.
      The organization allows donor families and the recipients to keep in touch with one another after the transplant. Mr. Stepien’s heart went to Arthur Thomas, a father of four who lives in Lawrenceville, N.J., and who Ms. Stepien said had been within days of dying.
      Given a diagnosis of ventricular tachycardia about 16 years before receiving the transplant, Mr. Thomas, 72, said in an interview on Monday that he was in congestive heart failure when word arrived that his doctors had found a heart.
      “In order to get to the top of the transplant list, you have to be really hurting,” Mr. Thomas said. “Once I had my transplant, I, of course, decided I would write a thank-you to the family.”
      From there, a relationship was forged through monthly phone calls, emails and letters. Ms. Stepien’s mother, Bernice, kept in touch with Mr. Thomas, even swapping cards on Christmas and flowers on birthdays. At times, they compared parenting tips. But the families had not thought about meeting in person until Jeni Stepien, 33, became engaged to Paul Maenner, a 34-year-old engineer, in October.
      “One of my first thoughts in that following week was, ‘Who will walk me down the aisle?’ ” Ms. Stepien said. “I was thinking, ‘Oh, my gosh, it would be so incredible to have a physical piece of my father there.’ ”
      At her fiancé’s suggestion, Ms. Stepien wrote Mr. Thomas, whom the family calls Tom, asking him to walk her down the aisle. Mr. Thomas said yes, but only after running the proposition by his 30-year-old daughter, Jackie, he said.
      “She said, ‘I think it’s a wonderful idea,’ ” Mr. Thomas said of his daughter, who also recommended that he start practicing walking down the aisle. (He said he practiced once before the wedding.)
      Mr. Thomas, a retired college adviser who formerly worked at a boarding school in Lawrenceville, warned Ms. Stepien that his emotions might get the best of him.
      Ms. Stepien said she felt the same, and told him, “I’ll be right there with you.”
      The wedding took place on Friday in the church in Swissvale where Ms. Stepien’s parents were married. Mr. Thomas and the bride formally met one day earlier, when he suggested she grip his wrist, where his pulse is strongest.
      “I thought that would be the best way for her to feel close to her dad,” Mr. Thomas said. “That’s her father’s heart beating.”
      At the church, the bride was photographed touching Mr. Thomas’s chest. At the reception, they danced together, and guests mingled with Mr. Thomas and his wife, Nancy. The two families say they want to keep in touch and will plan a get-together somewhere down the road — maybe an event with a little less pressure.
      “I felt wonderful about bringing her dad’s heart to Pittsburgh,” Mr. Thomas said. “If I had to, I would’ve walked.”
      http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/09/fashion/weddings/bride-is-walked-down-aisle-by-the-man-who-got-her-fathers-donated-heart.html?smid=fb-share&_r=0
    • By admin
      This is a story that gives new meaning to "The Little Engine That Could" in a profound way.

      One source explains:
      In what is called the "Great Oxidation Event," something very little appeared that started making the earth habitable for us through photosynthesis. What happened? This:

      Cyanobacteria is responsible terraforming earth, transforming it from an iron-rich water world with a choking, impenetrable carbon-dioxide atmosphere to one with blue water and a clear oxygenated atmosphere. They also enlarged the coastlines of the nascent continents, called cratons. It took these little guys millions of years to accomplish this! Cyanobacteria is also very nutritious for human consumption. Where did cyanobacteria come from, being able to terraform a planet and provide humanity with nutrition? Humanity's best friend from the Creator.

      Footnotes:
      [1] The Event that Transformed Earth http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20150701-the-origin-of-the-air-we-breathe
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