ANOTHER Difficult Doctrine. With a less complex explanation.

[TrueTomHarley]

4 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

Does the JW Org really have 'enemies' now ?

No, they are banned and prosecuted in Russia on account of their friends.

6 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

It is genuine hate of child abuse. 

Even that is largely a straw man issue. Child sexual abuse is the premiere export of the planet, No group is unaffected. The lists that you carry on about began as efforts to snuff it out in the congregation and make sure that molesters could not simply slip undetected from one congregation to another, as they could (and still can) anywhere else. Nobody else has faces charges of not reporting it of members because nobody else has ever endeavored to keep track of it.

[JW Insider]

9 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

But, on the other hand, I also see that one time period (three and a half days) is not consistently rendered as a literal time period whereas the three and a half years is understood to be literal - both time periods within the span of a few verses in the same chapter of Revelation 11.

Yes. I agree that this is inconsistent:

• Based on the last time the actual dates were specified, the 1,260 days means a period of 1,271 days. (12/28/1914-6/21/1918)
• Based on the unspecified date in 1919 (sometimes called "early 1919") that appears to be in the spring of that year according to the charts, the "three and a half days" means a period of about 300 days. (304 days from June 21, 1918 to April 21, 1919)
• 1,260 = 1,271
• 3.5 = 300+

But we've got several more inconsistencies.

I'll start with the mention of the olive trees, lampstands, and the "two witnesses."

The two witnesses are explained like this:

“Two witnesses”: The small group of anointed brothers who were taking the lead when God’s Kingdom was established in 1914

There is an implication in the Pure Worship book that the two witnesses primarily BEGAN with Russell/Rutherford in 1914 but that it merges into more modern times, with mid-20th century briefcases and then late 20th to 21st century microphones. I don't know how much instruction (or license) the artist was given, but the first in the forefront appears to be an exact merge of a picture of Russell mixed with Rutherford. But the background is mixed. Just for fun, these silhouette-like pictures remind me of existing photos of the following persons, from left to right: Fred Franz (far left), Tony Morris next, then the Russell Russell/Rutherford amalgam facing forward, then Raymond Franz behind him with nearly a phonograph-size briefcase (artists inside joke, if true), then a later Rutherford or Milton Henschel, then Milton Henschel again, then an unknown person at the podium.

In 1914 itself, there were only probably very few who might have been considered qualified for taking the lead in the United States, based on the criteria by which the 1919 GB has been defined. Including the Watch Tower Editorial Committee, and the Watch Tower Society Officers, there were probably 7 or 8. Yet Russell was the only one whose name was well-known, and Rutherford, the attorney, hadn't started that much public speaking until he published an "attorney's" defense about Russell's supposed "scandals" in 1915 (Great Battle in the Ecclesiastical Heavens).

But all that is just an aside. The definition is those men who were taking the lead in 1914, and those of that group who remained faithful would be appointed in 1919 as the "faithful and discreet slave." When this is mentioned, we usually find the expression "those who remained faithful" because of the fact that majority of those who were already in the position to be considered the "Governing Body" were dismissed and replaced with new persons to make room for Rutherford's election to the presidency in 1917.

But here is a place where we may have ignored a Biblical explanation of the "two witnesses." And this gets back to the "type-antitype" talk by Brother Splane. Not that this particular Biblical explanation (below) is the only one or the correct one, but it should still be important to explain why we dismiss a plausible Biblical explanation in favor of a modern-day interpretation.

A POSSIBLE BIBLICAL EXPLANATION FOR THE TWO WITNESSES

We should remember that the chapter starts out like this:

(Revelation 11:1-4) And a reed like a rod was given to me as he said: “Get up and measure the temple sanctuary of God and the altar and those worshipping in it. 2 But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, leave it out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for 42 months. 3 I will cause my two witnesses to prophesy for 1,260 days dressed in sackcloth.” 4 These are symbolized by the two olive trees and the two lampstands and are standing before the Lord of the earth.

So the subject of Revelation 11 is something about the temple, the nations, and two witnesses symbolized by two olive trees and two lampstands.

The only current explanation of the olive trees and lampstands is very tenuous, and never attempts to explain the imagery, except to say it reminds us of Zechariah's prophecy, where they represented two anointed ones, and who perform signs like Moses and Elijah.

*** w14 11/15 p. 30 Questions From Readers ***
First, we are told that they “are symbolized by the two olive trees and the two lampstands.” (Rev. 11:4) This reminds us of the lampstand and two olive trees described in the prophecy of Zechariah. Those olive trees were said to picture “the two anointed ones,” that is, Governor Zerubbabel and High Priest Joshua, “standing alongside the Lord of the whole earth.” (Zech. 4:1-3, 14) Second, the two witnesses are described as performing signs similar to those performed by Moses and Elijah.

If the Bible actually gives us a plausible explanation of these two Witnesses, then why are we looking to match them to perhaps 8 or more persons in modern times? One reason is because we try to explain anything already fulfilled in Revelation in terms of the events surrounding 1914 through 1925. Anything else is unfulfilled future events surrounding the great tribulation, Armageddon and the 1,000 year reign. (Except for a little bit of 1935, and the League appearing as the UN in 1945, we go on for about 80 years with no more fulfillments.)

But in the Bible a "Revelation" is often a revealing of what is going on behind the scenes in heaven to help explain what has happened, or is happening on earth. Much of it, but not all of it is supposed to be about the future. Think of the revealing of what was going on in heaven behind the scenes in the book of Job, or in the case of Micaiah, or in Stephen's case when he sees the vision of Christ standing at God's right hand.

So what if we were to look for any two witnesses that might be associated with lampstands?

(Acts 26:22, 23) . . .I continue to this day bearing witness to both small and great, but saying nothing except things the Prophets as well as Moses stated were going to take place, 23 that the Christ was to suffer and, as the first to be resurrected from the dead, he was going to publish light both to this people and to the nations.”

(Acts 13:46, 47) . . .“It was necessary for the word of God to be spoken first to you [Israelites]. Since you are rejecting it and do not judge yourselves worthy of everlasting life, look! we turn to the nations. 47 For Jehovah has commanded us in these words: ‘I have appointed you [Paul] as a light of nations, for you to be a salvation to the ends of the earth.’”

(Galatians 2:2-8) 2 I went up as a result of a revelation, and I presented to them the good news that I am preaching among the nations.. . . 7 On the contrary, when they saw that I [Paul] had been entrusted with the good news for those who are uncircumcised, just as Peter had been for those who are circumcised— 8 for the one who empowered Peter for an apostleship to those who are circumcised also empowered me [Paul] for those who are of the nations—

So we already have two witnesses who represent those who were taking the lead in bringing LIGHT to the Jews and a LIGHT to the NATIONS.

I also find it odd that there is already a chapter in the Greek Scriptures about two olive trees, and it turns out that they are representative of the same thing. The BIBLE's explanation for the two olive trees also associates them with the witness to the same two different groups, the Jews and the Gentiles. There was the garden olive tree and the wild olive tree:

(Romans 11:24) ²⁴ For if you were cut out of the olive tree that is wild by nature and were grafted contrary to nature into the garden olive tree, how much more will these who are natural branches be grafted back into their own olive tree!

Paul gave the explanation in the same context:

(Romans 10:19-11:13) . . .First Moses says: “I will incite you to jealousy through that which is not a nation; I will incite you to violent anger through a foolish nation.” . . .  Do you not know what the scripture says in connection with E·liʹjah, as he pleads with God against Israel? . . . 7 What, then? The very thing Israel is earnestly seeking he did not obtain, but the ones chosen obtained it. The rest had their senses dulled, . . . But by their false step, there is salvation to people of the nations, to incite them to jealousy. 12 Now if their false step means riches to the world and their decrease means riches to people of the nations, how much more will their full number mean! 13 Now I speak to you who are people of the nations. Seeing that I am an apostle to the nations, I glorify my ministry

I also highlighted Paul's contextual references to Moses and Elijah because of the references to Moses and Elijah in Revelation 11:6.

Another problem with the 1918 - 1919 explanation is that we have changed the view on the captivity to Babylon the Great which effectively removes 1918 from the picture, where it had once played a large part in the interpretation of the cleansing of the Temple. So that we now have TWO visions of the "anointed" being killed, this time around the year 100 CE, not 1918 CE.

*** w16 March p. 29 par. 3-p. 31 par. 1 Questions From Readers ***
For a number of years, we explained that this captivity began in 1918 and involved a brief period of time when God’s people came under the control of Babylon the Great. For example, The Watchtower of March 15, 1992, stated: “Yet, as God’s ancient people were taken into Babylonian captivity for a time, in 1918 Jehovah’s servants came into a measure of bondage to Babylon the Great.” However, further research has shown that this captivity began much earlier than 1918.
.  . . What a fitting way to describe the spiritual resurrection of God’s people that culminated in the events of 1919! But what does this vision reveal to us concerning the length of time involved?
. . .
With these Scriptural details in mind, it becomes clear that the captivity of God’s people to Babylon the Great must have been much longer than the events of 1918-1919. The captivity parallels the time when the symbolic weeds would grow together with the wheatlike “sons of the Kingdom.” (Matt. 13:36-43) That growing season refers to the period during which genuine Christians were greatly outnumbered by apostates. The Christian congregation, in effect, was held captive by Babylon the Great. That captivity began sometime in the second century C.E. and continued until the cleansing of the spiritual temple in the time of the end.—Acts 20:29, 30; 2 Thess. 2:3, 6; 1 John 2:18, 19.
  .  Later, such tools as the “Photo-Drama of Creation” in 1914 and the book The Finished Mystery in 1917 also strengthened God’s people. Finally, in 1919, God’s people were given life, spiritually speaking, and were settled in their new spiritual land. As time has progressed, this remnant of anointed ones has been joined by those with an earthly hope, and together they have become “an extremely large army.”—Ezek. 37:10; Zech. 8:20-23.

*** rr p. 118 10B “Dry Bones” and “Two Witnesses”—How Do They Relate? *** (2018, Pure Worship)

TEACHING BOX 10B
“Dry Bones” and “Two Witnesses”—How Do They Relate?
THE year 1919 saw the fulfillment of two related prophecies: one regarding “dry bones,” the other about “two witnesses.” The vision of “dry bones” foretells a very long period (which turned out to be many centuries) that ends with the coming to life of a large group of God’s people. (Ezek. 37:2-4; Rev. 11:1-3, 7-13) The prophecy about the “two witnesses” describes a short period (fulfilled from late 1914 to early 1919) that ends with the coming to life of a small group of God’s servants. Both prophecies depicted a symbolic resurrection, and both prophecies saw a modern-day fulfillment in 1919 when Jehovah caused his anointed servants “to stand on their feet,” leave their captivity to Babylon the Great, and be gathered in the restored congregation.—Ezek. 37:10.
Note, though, that the fulfillment of these two prophecies differs in an important way. The prophecy of the “dry bones” foretells the coming to life of all members of the anointed remnant. However, the prophecy of the “two witnesses” foretells the coming to life of some members of God’s anointed remnant—those who were taking the lead in the organization and who were appointed as “the faithful and discreet slave.”—Matt. 24:45; Rev. 11:6.
“The Valley Plain . . . Full of Bones”—Ezek. 37:1
AFTER 100 C.E.
From the second century C.E. onward when the anointed Christian congregation was killed symbolically, “the valley plain” was filled with “bones”
EARLY 1919
1919: The “dry bones” came to life when Jehovah caused all anointed ones to leave Babylon the Great and be gathered in the restored congregation
“Two Witnesses”—Rev. 11:3
LATE 1914
preaching “in sackcloth”
1914: The “two witnesses” preached “in sackcloth” for three and a half years. At the end of that period, they were symbolically killed symbolic death
EARLY 1919
1919: The “two witnesses” came to life when a small group of anointed brothers who were taking the lead in the organization were appointed to serve as “the faithful and discreet slave”

There are a few other potential inconsistencies with these explanations, including the idea that there has been no planting of seeds since 1919. As the  The captivity parallels the time when the symbolic weeds would grow together with the wheatlike “sons of the Kingdom.”

Perhaps I'll comment on that in another post as this is too long.

[Except that all these posts are getting merged, and are much too long now anyway . . .]

It is stated that all planting/sowing happened prior to 1919 and started in 33CE. Is no one doing any planting or sowing today?

And if the harvest is done by angels, did it really start in 1914? And if the gathering into storehouses started in 1919, then why do the weeds not get burned until the Great Tribulation/Armageddon? 

*** mwb18 February p. 3 The Illustration of the Wheat and the Weeds ***
[Chart on page 3]
33 C.E. SOWING BEGINS
1914 HARVEST SEASON BEGINS
1919 GATHERING INTO THE STOREHOUSE

This makes little sense in light of the verses in Matthew 13, which could all be explained very simply and completely by taking 1914 and 1919 out of the picture. There we would have wheat and weeds growing together from 33 on to today and harvested at the time of the harvest, a time of judgment, when the Son of man will send his angels and they will collect and burn with fire. In fact, the Bible has the weeds collected and burned BEFORE the wheat, yet our explanation REVERSES this:

(Matthew 13:28-30) . . .He said to them, ‘An enemy, a man, did this.’ The slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go out and collect them?’ 29 He said, ‘No, for fear that while collecting the weeds, you uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and in the harvest season, I will tell the reapers: First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up; then gather the wheat into my storehouse.’”

(Matthew 13:37-43) . . .In response he said: “The sower of the fine seed is the Son of man; 38 the field is the world. As for the fine seed, these are the sons of the Kingdom, but the weeds are the sons of the wicked one, 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the Devil. The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels. 40 Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things. 41 The Son of man will send his angels, and they will collect out from his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and people who practice lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be. 43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. Let the one who has ears listen.

Our current explanation breaks this up into long time periods.

*** w13 7/15 p. 9 “Look! I Am With You All the Days” ***
Why can we conclude that from the first century C.E. until today, there have always been anointed Christians on earth?

*** w13 7/15 pp. 9-10 par. 3 “Look! I Am With You All the Days” ***
At the dawn of the second century C.E., “the weeds appeared” when imitation Christians became visible in the world field.

** w13 7/15 p. 12 par. 10 “Look! I Am With You All the Days” ***
First, collecting the weeds. Jesus says: “In the harvest season I will tell the reapers, First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles.” After 1914, the angels began to “collect” weedlike Christians by separating them from the anointed “sons of the kingdom.”—Matt. 13:30, 38, 41.

*** w13 7/15 p. 12 par. 12 “Look! I Am With You All the Days” ***
Second, gathering the wheat. Jesus commands his angels: “Go to gathering the wheat into my storehouse.” (Matt. 13:30) Since 1919, anointed ones have been gathered into the restored Christian congregation. For those anointed Christians who will be alive at the end of this system of things, the final gathering will take place when they receive their heavenly reward.

With reference to the weeping and gnashing and being pitched into the fiery furnace and the shining brightly, the Watchtower says:

*** w13 7/15 p. 13 par. 16 “Look! I Am With You All the Days” ***
The fulfillment of these words still lies ahead.

The full explanation involves breaking up the first messenger in Malachi 3:1 into 2 messengers (plus Jesus, the messenger of the covenant) so that one messenger can have a modern day fulfillment just prior to 1919, whereas the Bible already explained that the messenger was John the Baptist paving the way for Jesus. Now we also think it means, in effect, persons like Russell and those associated with him as they paved the way for the Governing Body.

There is another complexity that seems even more obvious, but I'll hold off for now.

All these extra complexities go away when we remove 1914, 1918 and 1919 from the picture and read Matthew and Malachi and Revelation again.

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, 4Jah2me said:

Most of this is beyond me but I've noticed that you are working from the year 1914 (the setting up of the Heavenly Kingdom), and I had thought that 1914 itself was in question on here somewhere ?  Is the date 1914 firmly established as TRUTH in your eyes, or is it the case that 'if you say it enough, people will believe it'. 

It's probably confusing because I am reviewing the details of the current interpretations that include 1914, but I can't currently agree with all of them.

The date 1914 is true in some ways, as there was a fulfillment of prophecy in that year. During several points in the last days, we should expect critical times hard to deal with. We should expect to see wars and reports of wars. 1914 was one of the dates where such fulfillments were definitely experienced. So was the effect these critical times had on the Watchtower Society leaders and Bible students. Recall that Jesus said "they will persecute you and put some of you in prison."

The only problem I have with putting too much emphasis on 1914 is that Jesus warned us NOT to look to wars and pestilence and earthquakes as part of any SIGN that could be used to inform us about the parousia. Recall that Jesus said, there would be a great judgment upon the Jerusalem Temple where it would be completely destroyed. So the disciples asked if they could learn if there would be any signs so that they would know WHEN this parousia might happen. So Jesus said, don't be misled, you will see lots of things that are bad, the kinds of things that fool people into thinking they are seeing a sign, but that this particular judgment will come like a thief in the night, by surprise, as if with no warning. But that was their warning - so they would be prepared for the right reasons at all times. It was enough to know that it MIGHT come in their own lifetime. Same with us. It MIGHT come in our own lifetime, but for all of us it is a short period of time, our own lifespan, or perhaps shorter than that if we live to see it.

No I don't believe 1914 is the time of the establishment of the heavenly kingdom, because the Bible says that it was established in the first century. We might see things in history that prove to us that it is "more and more" established, and this would be like when the Jews could celebrate an event with a phrase like "Jehovah has become king." It didn't mean he wasn't always "king" but that there was some new manifestation or appreciation of that kingship due to some exciting and significant event.

But from a technical perspective, the Bible already calls Jesus the king of kings in the first century, but we can still expect future significant events when we might say again "Jesus has become king!" It depends on how much prophetic significance we give to those events, as we believe we are seeing Bible prophecy fulfilled. I don't think anyone should blame Russell and Rutherford for thinking that Jesus became king in 1878. They were excited to believe they lived in the time when Jesus had returned to be present again in 1874, and thought they were seeing prophecy being fulfilled. I don't think Rutherford should be blamed for changing it to 1914 several years after thinking about the probable prophetic significance of that year. But I think that part of this was a way to save face, since a lot of significant things happened in 1914, but none of them were related to the things they had once predicted for 1914.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

@JW Insider  Thank you for your in depth reply.

I quote  "No I don't believe 1914 is the time of the establishment of the heavenly kingdom, because the Bible says that it was established in the first century.... " 

Can you please help me further. 

What is the teaching / belief of the Watchtower / JW Org in that respect. Do they believe / teach that the Heavenly Kingdom was set up in 1914 ?

And, if the Kingdom was not set up in 1914, but was established in the first century, then presumably Jesus was reigning as King in heaven at that time. If so, were the apostles / disciples resurrected to heaven immediately on their dying as humans ?  

This would all be new thoughts to me. I don't tend to dig deep enough.  And once again knowing who to believe is difficult. 

[JW Insider]

4 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

What is the teaching / belief of the Watchtower / JW Org in that respect. Do they believe / teach that the Heavenly Kingdom was set up in 1914 ?

Yes. Basically. I'm not trying to get too technical here, but the Heavenly Kingdom has been a part of Jehovah's heavenly organization from "time indefinite." This is why you will more often see the idea worded like this:

*** w09 4/15 p. 30 par. 10 Appreciating Jesus—The Greater David and the Greater Solomon ***
. . . in 1914 when he was enthroned as King in the heavenly Kingdom.

*** w05 5/1 p. 11 par. 14 The Resurrection—A Teaching That Affects You ***
In 1914, Jehovah enthroned Jesus as Messianic King of the heavenly Kingdom and commanded him to rule in the midst of his enemies

*** w00 5/15 p. 17 par. 10 Have Faith in God’s Prophetic Word! ***
When “the appointed times of the nations” ended in 1914, God established the heavenly Kingdom under Christ.

So, technically, Jesus became the King of a Heavenly Kingdom that had been there all along. It was now set up or established under Christ. This is why he is said to hand it back to the his God and Father when the "mission" is accomplished. (1 Cor 15:24, below)

(1 Corinthians 15:23-27) 23 But each one in his own proper order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence. [literally, at his parousia] 24 Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing. 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.”. .

But the expressions "the Messianic/Davidic Kingdom" and the "Heavenly Kingdom" have at times, especially in the past, been carefully distinguished, but it is now simpler, and we often say "the heavenly kingdom was 'established' in 1914" which is the same as saying it was "set up" then. In fact, it was really only supposed to be "set up" in a new and different way starting in 1914, where Jehovah entrusted Christ to rule from his right hand, and go on conquering, first by proving his power over the Devil by casting him out of heaven, gathering a congregation of loyal subjects, commanding those subjects to go preaching, declaring that the "lease" of power that had been given to the nations had now run out, etc

4 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

And, if the Kingdom was not set up in 1914, but was established in the first century, then presumably Jesus was reigning as King in heaven at that time. If so, were the apostles / disciples resurrected to heaven immediately on their dying as humans ?  

That's a good question. But it appears that they must wait until the resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous.

(Revelation 6:9-11) . . .When he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness they had given. 10 They shouted with a loud voice, saying: “Until when, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 And a white robe was given to each of them, and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they had been.

As for the resurrection of the righteous:

(Matthew 13:41-43) 41 The Son of man will send his angels, and they will collect out from his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and people who practice lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be. 43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. . .

The Watchtower used to say that this resurrection started in 1918, but inconsistently, the words "at that time" are now applied to a future time associated with the "great tribulation." The Watchtower still allows that this first resurrection of those anointed already sleeping in death would likely have happened between 1914 and 1935, with 1918 still being "an interesting possibility" 

*** w07 1/1 p. 28 par. 12 “The First Resurrection”—Now Under Way! ***
Jesus Christ was anointed as the future King of God’s Kingdom in the fall of 29 C.E. Three and a half years later, in the spring of 33 C.E., he was resurrected as a mighty spirit person. Could it, then, be reasoned that since Jesus was enthroned in the fall of 1914, the resurrection of his faithful anointed followers began three and a half years later, in the spring of 1918? That is an interesting possibility. Although this cannot be directly confirmed in the Bible, it is not out of harmony with other scriptures that indicate that the first resurrection got under way soon after Christ’s presence began.

This 1918 date had been taught as a definite thing, for many years, but it was really just a leftover piece of the tradition about "parallel dispensations." In the earlier version of this parallel dispensation, there were 3.5 year segments from Oct 1844 to Passover/Spring 1878 to October 1881. (Jesus had been raised in the spring of 33, 3.5 years after he became Christ in 29 C.E.) This had been updated to October 1914 +3.5= Spring 1918, a parallel time for a resurrection. Since there is no Biblical basis for parallel dispensations, this had to be dropped to only "an interesting possibility."

*** w98 2/1 p. 17 pars. 18-19 Greater Blessings Through the New Covenant ***
Then Daniel saw that “the holy ones took possession of the kingdom itself.” Jesus is the one “like a son of man” who, in 1914, received the heavenly Kingdom from Jehovah God. His spirit-anointed disciples are “the holy ones” who share with him in that Kingdom. (1 Thessalonians 2:12) How?
19 After their death, these anointed ones are like Jesus raised from the dead as immortal spirit creatures to serve with him as kings and priests in heaven. (1 Corinthians 15:50-53; Revelation 20:4, 6)

(1 Corinthians 15:50-52) . . .. 51 Look! I tell you a sacred secret: We will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we will be changed.

I think if we look closely at these arguments presented in the Watchtower, we'll see at least 5 problems where the Watchtower is inconsistent with the Scriptures. Otherwise I would not bring up the problems with the doctrine.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

@JW Insider Thank you once again.

In my 60's English I would say ' That is heavy vibes man'   Meaning deep thinking.

But, let's go back to this :-

Revelation 6:9-11. ...... 11 And a white robe was given to each of them, and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they had been.

So, ' until the number was filled' would be in our time now. And even if one of the Anointed now should 'turn bad' and have to be replaced, then it could even be in the future. (As I suspect there will be another 'ten years' before Judgement time). 

So, are the Apostles / disciples to 'rest a little while longer' even now ? In fact right up until the last of the Anointed has proven faithful. And if so is the Watchtower / GB / Org, going against the things written by suggesting that the Apostles have already been resurrected in the spirit form and are now in heaven with Christ ? 

I suppose I'm asking you here to talk in opposition to the GB etc, but I'm not looking to find fault at this time, I'm looking for better understanding of scripture. 

[JW Insider]

26 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

So, are the Apostles / disciples to 'rest a little while longer' even now ? In fact right up until the last of the Anointed has proven faithful. And if so is the Watchtower / GB / Org, going against the things written by suggesting that the Apostles have already been resurrected in the spirit form and are now in heaven with Christ ?

This is exactly the point made in Revelation, but it also matches what Paul says in 1 Cor 15 and 1 & 2 Thess, which matches Matthew 13. This is the explanation that causes no inconsistencies. Unfortunately the 1914 doctrine causes many inconsistencies in my opinion. Perhaps I'll write up a longer answer later, but I think your question could be further answered by just reviewing a couple of those other Bible passages that are related:

Some people in Paul's day were getting over-anxious about the timing of the parousia, and he had to remind them that this could be a ways off. If the Watchtower is right, Paul could have said, it can't happen yet, because Jesus is not even ruling as King yet!

But instead,

(2 Thessalonians 2:1-8) . . .However, brothers, concerning the presence [parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you 2 not to be quickly shaken from your reason nor to be alarmed either by an inspired statement or by a spoken message or by a letter appearing to be from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here. 3 Let no one lead you astray in any way, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction. 4 He stands in opposition and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits down in the temple of God, publicly showing himself to be a god. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you, I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is acting as a restraint, so that he will be revealed in his own due time. 7 True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work, but only until the one who is right now acting as a restraint is out of the way. 8 Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence.

(1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:2) . . .Moreover, brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who are sleeping in death, so that you may not sorrow as the rest do who have no hope. 14 For if we have faith that Jesus died and rose again, so too God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in death through Jesus. 15 For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord. 18 So keep comforting one another with these words. 5 Now as for the times and the seasons, brothers, you need nothing to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know very well that Jehovah’s day is coming exactly as a thief in the night.

First of all notice that the parousia is the same as the day of the Lord (Jehovah) in the 2 Thess 2. But also note that at the trumpet's call they all go together at the same time. This trumpet call is associated with a time that the Watchtower now admits to be future when it is mentioned here:

(Matthew 24:30, 31) . . ., and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.

(Matthew 13:39-41,44) . . .The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels. 40 Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things. 41 The Son of man will send his angels, and they will collect out from his Kingdom . . . At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father.

Notice too the verses already quoted above from 1 Cor 15:23-27;50-52. We can already see problems with 1914. Notice that Paul writing in the first century gives an overview of the major events of the kingdom, that include those expected in the future.  

1. Christ is resurrected.
2. Then those belong to Christ (anointed) are resurrected "at the parousia."
3. Then the "end" when he hands the Kingdom back to his Father (Jehovah), after he has completely brought to nothing all governments and power and even Death, the last enemy, has also been brought to nothing. (In Revelation this is the same as saying that Death has been completely destroyed, "tossed into the lake of fire.")

Notice anything missing in this sequence? Even if it were OK to translate "at the parousia" as "during his presence" we notice that this taking the reins of the Kingship is NOT considered an important event in the sequence.

And it's pretty obvious why. It's because Paul assumes that Jesus Christ is already reigning, (1 Cor 15:25) and already reigning in the midst of his enemies, and already beginning to show his power over those enemies by accepting "subjects" into the Kingdom who are already under his command, accepting that Jesus has already been given ALL AUTHORITY. So why would Jesus need to be declared King at some later point if he was already given all authority, and was already commanding his subjects?

(Matthew 28:18-20) . . .Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. 19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

(Jesus also declared that his "presence" had already begun: "I am with you." Also, if the conclusion began in 1914, Jesus would only be with them until 1914.)

There's another instance of this idea that showed up in one of the Watchtower quotes above:

*** w98 2/1 p. 17 pars. 18-19 Greater Blessings Through the New Covenant ***
Then Daniel saw that “the holy ones took possession of the kingdom itself.” Jesus is the one “like a son of man” who, in 1914, received the heavenly Kingdom from Jehovah God. His spirit-anointed disciples are “the holy ones” who share with him in that Kingdom. (1 Thessalonians 2:12)

The Watchtower quoted 1 Thess 2:12 to indicate that this starts in 1914, but Paul wrote 1 Thess in the first century and indicated that it was ALREADY begun.

(1 Thessalonians 2:12) 12 so that you would go on walking worthily of God, who is calling you to his Kingdom and glory.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

@JW Insider thank you again. But i will probably need to re-read that six times to understands it all. 

It would seem to me right now that the Watchtower writers were making it more difficult in the past for anyone to understand the Truth of God's word. Other religions were always criticized for their teachings being wrong, but it would seem here that the Soc / Org / W/t  should have known better. 

It looks to me as if, from the very beginning of the Bible Students right through to the JW Org now, they have had to pretend that things were 'happening' right then and there.  It's as if they have to maintain some excitement by hyping up everything.  

I'm still very confused by many spiritual things, but it does not seem that the GB /W/t / JW Org, can be of much help to me if they cannot even get it right themselves. I am sincere in my hope that God will soon inspire the true Anointed to lead God's people, whomever they may be, in the right direction. And I am even more sure in my heart now that Judgement time will be quite a long way off yet. There does not seem to be one humble organisation that is getting it right with scripture or service to God. The preaching work would of course only be good if what was preached was faithful and true.  

 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

Or it could just mean that you follow like sheep, but following a false shepherd. 

[JW Insider]

12 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Something that has been said here for over 7 years. No conflicted witness will understand what is before them. They have already made up their minds, not to view prophecy as indicated in scripture by staying alert and keeping on the watch.

6 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Yes it would be evident to those that are not conflicted, that 1914 plays a prominent role in prophecy.

Whenever we see conflicts and contradictions, there is no need to feel conflicted. We can merely accept that the Bible makes sense a certain way that might be true, and that other explanations might also be true. For example, we can accept a new Watchtower doctrine when it changes, without needing to feel conflicted, just because we are now aware that we have held two different interpretations for the same verse. The Writing Department uses Bible commentaries like Matthew Henry, Barnes Notes, Keil and Delitzsch, etc., and these commentaries offer various possible explanations for difficult verses. But they are rarely dogmatic and each of them may offer various potential explanations. This is how a Bible commentary published about 314 years ago (Matthew Henry) has been able to remain relevant and valuable for these three centuries.

Most Witnesses have found no outlet to safely discuss these conflicts and contradictions between the Bible statements and the Watchtower doctrines. So it is difficult to tell if they actually feel conflicted. But with a less dogmatic attitude toward certain types of conjectural doctrines, there is no reason that they MUST feel conflicted. As you say, perhaps, "conflicted Witnesses" have already made up their minds, not to view prophecy as indicated in scripture by staying alert and keeping on the watch. If so, that's too bad, because it was the whole purpose of Jesus telling us not to be misled by wars and reports of wars, for example. If people think there will be various "signs" that show when the Great Tribulation is near, they will be less likely to truly keep on the watch, and less likely to watch their own conduct and attitude and what sort of persons they ought to be.

This is one of the problems with 1914 playing a prominent role in prophecy. The very role it most likely plays, in my opinion, is that it became a primary instance of proving Jesus right. He said not to be fooled by wars into thinking that the parousia was imminent. I believe that this prophecy has come true, not just in 1914, but in many wars over the past hundreds of years. People hear about wars, earthquakes, pestilence, famine, persecution, imprisonments, etc., and are easily misled into thinking they are seeing a sign of the parousia.

6 hours ago, César Chávez said:

The fact that misinterpretation continues to play a role to argue against 1914 when, others have agreed with 1914 along with their own narratives of the 2520 calculation to further their studies only shows the unwillingness of those not understanding prophecy will go to great lengths to discredit a sound calculation.

Misinterpretation and miscalculation and a need to rely on SECULAR dates have ALWAYS played a large role in the 1914 doctrine. When the doctrine was originally formulated, Barbour and Russell incorrectly thought Cyrus released the Jews in 536 BCE. This idea had forced the theory that the destruction of Jerusalem had to be moved to 606 BCE, and this left no room to build in much time for the Jews to pack and travel. Barbour had based this 536 date on "Ptolemy's Canon" -- he thought. When Russell published Three Worlds with Barbour, that publication stated that Ptolemy was accepted as accurate by all the scientific and literary world. But when Russell discovered that Ptolemy's Canon actually gives 538 for the first year of Cyrus and 587 for the destruction of Jerusalem using the 18th year of Nebuchadnezzar, then Russell began attacking this king list. He attacked Ptolemy too, because he also incorrectly thought that Ptolemy was the originator of Ptolemy's Canon (king list).

Then Russell, apparently not being completely honest, or at least being very sloppy, claimed that "ALL" students of chronology may be said to be agreed that the first year of Cyrus was 536. He had misunderstood that Bible chronologists like Isaac Newton and Bishop Ussher were not using Ptolemy's Canon here, but just using a Bible interpretation to try to fit Jeremiah's 70 years from Nebuchadnezzar's first year to Cyrus 1st year. The Canon had given 604 to 538 for the period, which is really only 66 years, shy by 4 years. But the Bible seemed to put Darius the Mede in there for a year or two before Cyrus first year. So that's why Ussher (and some others) guessed that it couldn't really be 538 but two years later, 536, adjusting the Canon by two years to allow for the book of Daniel. Since that only got them 2 of the extra 4 years, they also moved Nebuchadnezzar's first year back from 604 to 606. Unfortunately for Russell and Barbour, and for others who had relied on works by Ussher, thousands of tablets had been discovered that showed that Ptolemy's Canon was exactly correct all along. This meant that sooner or later they would recognize that the real date was 587 for Nebuchadnezzar's 18th year (destruction of Jerusalem) and 538 for Cyrus 1st year. There was no admission by Barbour and Russell in their early publications that they had slipped Nebuchadnezzar's 18/19th year (destruction of Jerusalem) into the date that had actually been intended in the scholarly literature as the year Nebuchadnezzar first came to power (0th year to 1st regnal year).

Of course, Russell did discuss in a Watch Tower whether there had been a zero year, and dismissed the correct answer because it would have moved the 1914 date to 1915. Russell began using the 1915 date in place of 1914, especially when he surmised that it was not likely that everything he had expected still had enough time to happen. For a few months from late 1913 to early 1914 Russell twice discussed the possibility that the entire chronology had been wrong and that people might look back with interest on it 100 years from now (which would have been 2014).

When 1914 coincided with WWI, however, Russell never had to think about the zero year question again, and 1914 was used consistently rather than 1915 for the end of the Gentile Times. And so Russell never had to admit he had been wrong. Later, the Watchtower went back again to speaking of 1915 being the end of the Gentile Times, realizing that 1914 had failed to result in anything yet predicted for that year. But that didn't last long.

When Watchtower publications finally admitted they had been wrong about the zero year, it was 1943/1944, and the solution was to move back the destruction of Jerusalem from 606 to 607. By 1944 it was too late to move 1914 to 1915, and there was never any evidence for either 606 or 607, anyway. It was 587/586 all along, so sticking with 606 was neither here nor there.

But P.S.L.Johnson, who worked with Russell, had already noticed during Russell's lifetime that Cyrus' first year was actually 538, something we know today, but Russell still didn't want to accept. P.S.L.Johnson said he checked a dozen encyclopedias, and all of them said 538. (So much for Russell's claim that ALL students of chronology had said 536!)

In 1944, the Watchtower finally compromised by one of those two years towards Ptolemy's Canon, and used 537. Then finally in 1949, the Watchtower admitted that Cyrus first year was actually 538, the date that Ptolemy's Canon had indicated all along. This meant that we now had to explain a two year adjustment. The solution was to speculate that Cyrus decree had been near the end of his first year, and that it took well into the next year for the Jews to pack and travel and resettle.

That fixed one of the two adjusted years, and this was the actual time when the zero year problem was admitted, that provided the other adjusted year, when 606 was changed to 607. This way 1914 could remain intact, no matter what mistakes had to be readjusted from previous history.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

@JW Insider  Sorry but I'm laughing. You lost me half way through. But i do wonder how much time was spent looking at dates / years. And I'm still lost as to whether the year 1914 should have any serious meaning to a true Christian. 

I'm also confused as to what one should be 'on the watch for' if all the 'happenings' around the earth mean nothing anyway. 

Quote "This is one of the problems with 1914 playing a prominent role in prophecy. The very role it most likely plays, in my opinion, is that it became a primary instance of proving Jesus right. He said not to be fooled by wars into thinking that the parousia was imminent. I believe that this prophecy has come true, not just in 1914, but in many wars over the past hundreds of years. People hear about wars, earthquakes, pestilence, famine, persecution, imprisonments, etc., and are easily misled into thinking they are seeing a sign of the parousia. "

So what does one look for when keeping 'on the watch' ? 

One important point i did take from your comment was :-

 "Most Witnesses have found no outlet to safely discuss these conflicts and contradictions between the Bible statements and the Watchtower doctrines. "

This is of very serious concern. 

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, 4Jah2me said:

So what does one look for when keeping 'on the watch' ?

(2 Peter 3:11, 12, 17) 11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of persons ought YOU to be in holy acts of conduct and deeds of godly devotion, 12 awaiting and keeping close in mind the presence of the day of Jehovah,.  . . .YOU, therefore, beloved ones, having this advance knowledge, be on YOUR guard [i.e., watch] that YOU may not be led away with them by the error of the law-defying people and fall from YOUR own steadfastness.

We don't watch for signs. We watch out for ourselves, we watch out for false teachings, we watch out for our brothers and sisters in case they need help or encouragement -- because the days are wicked, because the Devil walks about like a roaring lion seeking to devour someone.

(Matthew 12:38, 39) 38 Then as an answer to him, some of the scribes and the Pharisees said: “Teacher, we want to see a sign from you.” 39 In reply he said to them: “A wicked and adulterous generation keeps on seeking a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of Joʹnah the prophet.

(Matthew 16:3-6) . . .’ You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but the signs of the times you cannot interpret. 4 A wicked and adulterous generation keeps seeking a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of Joʹnah.” With that he went away, leaving them behind. 5 Now the disciples crossed to the other side and forgot to take bread along. 6 Jesus said to them: “Keep your eyes open and watch out for the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.”

(Matthew 24:42-44) 42 Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. 43 “But know one thing: If the householder had known in what watch the thief was coming, he would have kept awake and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 On this account, you too prove yourselves ready, because the Son of man is coming at an hour that you do not think to be it.

We keep on the watch, not to figure out when the Lord is coming, because we'll never know. But if we watch ourselves (our conduct) then we will be ready at all times and the "night" won't overtake us.

Just like when Jesus told the disciples that they would not get an advance sign of the parousia (so that they should not be fooled by wars and earthquakes) he said something very similar to the Pharisees.

(Luke 17:20-24) . . .On being asked by the Pharisees when the Kingdom of God was coming, he answered them: “The Kingdom of God is not coming with striking observableness; 21 nor will people say, ‘See here!’ or, ‘There!’ For look! the Kingdom of God is in your midst.” 22 Then he said to the disciples: “Days will come when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, but you will not see it. 23 And people will say to you, ‘See there!’ or, ‘See here!’ Do not go out or chase after them. 24 For just as lightning flashes from one part of heaven to another part of heaven, so the Son of man will be in his day.

The NWT makes it a bit difficult to get the sense of "striking observableness." This is because the Greek is better translated just "observableness." (μετά παρατηρήσεως, in such a manner that it can be watched with the eyes). Jesus said, the Kingdom of God is not coming with things you can observe. In other words, the Kingdom is not coming with visible signs. Other translations get the sense of the Greek a little better like this:

(Revised Standard) he answered them, "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; (Luke 17:20)

(NASB) He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; (Luke 17:20)

(New English Translation) so he answered, "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed, (Luke 17:20)

(New Living Translation) Jesus replied, “The Kingdom of God can’t be detected by visible signs. (Luke 17:20)

So when Jesus' disciples also asked him for a sign, he said do not to be misled. No one would be able to say "see here" or "see there" because when the parousia did come it would be be like lightning flashing from one part of the heaven to another. No sign would appear in the heaven when it was too late. No signs could help them prepare for the Son of man in his day.