ANOTHER Difficult Doctrine. With a less complex explanation.

[JW Insider]

I believe that most Witnesses will seem frustrated that they are not able to defend the Watchtower's chronology on either secular grounds or scriptural grounds. I was surprised at this situation, but didn't have to go through a frustration phase, because my expectations were managed when Brother Dan Sydlik said that we ought to just get rid of all this chronology stuff and start from scratch. (He was specifically referring to the 1918/1919/1922 stuff at the time.) From a human perspective, a fleshly perspective, the Watchtower's chronology makes us feel good. As Brother Splane said, it might even send chills up and down our spine. But he admitted that this does not always mean that that such teachings (and I include this chronology) have been right. He indicated in his 2014 talk on types and antitypes that the Watchtower had been steeped in the traditions common to Catholicism, Protestantism, and especially those religions from whom the Bible Students had been recently associated. He spoke of how some of these traditions had been used by other religions to make the Bible appear to be talking about themselves and their own groups. He spoke of how the pyramidology that Russell promoted had become a strongly entrenched thing, with a strong emotional attachment to at least one brother (A. Smith, was the name he used in his example.)

Yet, over time, the Watchtower has dropped almost every date that Russell promoted, literally about a dozen such dates, with the exception of 1914. Since then the Watchtower has dropped another half-dozen prophetic instances that had been tied to the 1914 through 1935 era. Obviously, we had been steeped in long-standing traditions, some of which the Watchtower held for 120 years or more before dropping them. Some, like pyramidology, held for only about half a century, was finally identified as something raised up against the knowledge of God:

(2 Corinthians 10:3-5) . . .For though we walk in the flesh, we do not wage warfare according to what we are in the flesh. 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things. 5 For we are overturning reasonings and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, . . .

(Mark 7:7). . .they teach commands of men as doctrines.’ 8 You let go of the commandment of God and cling to the tradition of men.”

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

32 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

This is why, I have yet to see the Watchtower subvert the word of God in purpose, like conflicted witnesses, opposers and Christendom.

Incompetence is indistinguishable from deliberate subversion.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

• @JW Insider Thank you once again. 

I'm laughing again but not at you, just at situations, such as, " Other translations get the sense of the Greek a little better like this: "   is not coming with signs to be observed; (Luke 17:20). Isn't that just so much easier to understand...  Why didn't the NWT just say that ? 

OK, moving on, Matt 24 v 11 & 12 Many false prophets will arise and mislead many and because of the increasing of lawlessness, the love of the greater number will grow cold.  

Now, an important question which I will couple up to what we've already spoken about. 

Dos this scripture relate to inside the JW Org ? (I think the translation used to say 'cool off' but now says 'grow cold').  

My thinking here is that if the GB / JW Org are not getting things quite right, and if we need to keep on the watch about ourselves, then do we truly need to be a JW ?  Is there any scripture that relates to saying, we must be one of Jehovah's Witnesses to gain either spiritual blessings and/or salvation ? 

I'll repeat one comment from you from above.

"Most Witnesses have found no outlet to safely discuss these conflicts and contradictions between the Bible statements and the Watchtower doctrines. "

Quote below from JW Org website.  Matt 24 v 10 

Then, too, many will be stumbled ...... 

Matthew 24:10

will be stumbled: In the Christian Greek Scriptures, the Greek word skan·da·liʹzo refers to stumbling in a figurative sense, which may include falling into sin or causing someone to fall into sin. As the term is used in the Bible, the sin may involve breaking one of God’s laws on morals or losing faith or accepting false teachings. In this context, the term could also be rendered “will be led into sin; will fall away from the faith.” The Greek word can also be used in the sense of “to take offense.”—See study notes on Mt 13:57; 18:7.

If GB / W/t / JW Org are giving false teachings as 'food at the proper time', then would they be the 'cause for stumbling' ?  Repeating that :-

"Most Witnesses have found no outlet to safely discuss these conflicts and contradictions between the Bible statements and the Watchtower doctrines. "  That seems to show that there are conflicts and contradictions between the Bible statements and the Watchtower doctrines

My point relates to your comment where you say  "We don't watch for signs. We watch out for ourselves, we watch out for false teachings, ... " 

[JW Insider]

2 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

My thinking here is that if the GB / JW Org are not getting things quite right, and if we need to keep on the watch about ourselves, then do we truly need to be a JW ?  Is there any scripture that relates to saying, we must be one of Jehovah's Witnesses to gain either spiritual blessings and/or salvation ?

Obviously we must be witnesses for Jehovah and Jesus. We would do this out of appreciation for what Jehovah has done for us, especially his purpose and kingdom through Jesus. No matter who we associated with, we would have to watch out for ourselves, and pay attention to our teaching, too. There are many churches, and all of them have problems from traditions and human leadership. Problems of an obsolete chronology are more common in the history of churches than you might think, too.

Perhaps, like TTH said, the "carrot and stick" of a chronology that gets us motivated at first is not a terrible thing, as long as we start serving for the right motivation.

I will still go back to how, if we are honest hearted Christians, we will be attracted to association with groups of Christians or wannabe Christians who try very hard to maintain a brotherhood that is marked by love for one another, who attempt to overcome national, political and racial divides. There are many imperfections and exceptions, but I see this in the brotherhood of Witnesses, much more often than not. Then I would personally only be attracted to a Christian association that speaks out against wars and warmongering. Who will not go to battle against another nation, especially because we have Christian brothers in those other nations too. I happen to think that our teachings on Trinity, Hell, Paradise in a New Earth, etc., are far more important than a chronology tradition we have been stuck with. It's about the same to me as if we were told that all our Kingdom Halls should have 4 windows and a light blue carpet. Maybe we'd be stuck with such a dumb rule for 100 years, but I couldn't care less about it. It would not be important to me, no matter how authoritative the demand to follow that rule sounded. Perhaps someone might even find scriptures that made it seem important, too. I could safely ignore it without feeling conflicted, and I could safely go along with it in the congregation itself, so as not to cause trouble. But then again I might find an outlet where I could safely speak my mind if I thought it went beyond the things written.

[TrueTomHarley]

25 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

 all our Kingdom Halls should have 4 windows and a light blue carpet. Maybe we'd be stuck with such a dumb rule for 100 years,

I would not call it “dumb” if I were you.

The four windows reminds us of the four angels on the four corners of the earth holding tight the four winds of the earth. The carpet covering the dirt of the floor reminds up of the love that is to cover the sins of others. The blue reminds us of heaven where those 4 angels hang out on a nice day.

”You were running well. Who hindered you from keeping on obeying the truth?”

 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

Quote "No matter who we associated with, we would have to watch out for ourselves, and pay attention to our teaching, too." 

It's easier to pay attention to ourselves than it is, it seems, to pay attention to our teachings.

Where do 'our teachings' come from ?  If we can get direct instruction from God via the Bible and Holy Spirit, that would be great. The only one problem is, getting a true translation of God's word. Now if God is not inspiring anyone to translate His word properly, there lies the pit into which we can fall. And if the 'religion' we choose, chooses to misrepresent God's word, then it creates more problems. 

Quote "we will be attracted to association with groups of Christians or wannabe Christians who try very hard to maintain a brotherhood that is marked by love for one another, "

The 'boots on the ground' congregants can be easily swayed to love or to shun. They do not even need to be given a reason, they accept being given an 'order'.  You yourself have given an example of this. They can be very quick to jump to conclusions too. If a person is 'no longer a JW' the rest of the congregation will presume that the person was dis/fed for committing sin/s. I also found that if i enquired about someone that no longer attended meetings, I was met with a silence. If I suggested visiting someone that had not be seen in the hall for a long time, I was discouraged. Even the ministry here in southern England, i found that congregants were not even keen to go out. So, i haven't seen this love you talk of. But unfortunately I have seen the shunning of people, and the looking down on people when they re-enter the hall. 

The teachings on the Trinity and Hell etc, are from God's word, not from the Soc / W/t / GB / JW Org. I see no reason to pat the Org on the back for believing what God tells us in His written word. 

Unfortunately @JW Insider you round off that paragraph with the sort of rubbish that Mr Harley writes. 

There is a massive difference between teaching lies, and,  deciding how many windows to have in a hall. I do find that you and others, in one way seem to agree with my comments, but you seem to need to stay in the JW Org because it is your life. I know my comments are blunt / direct. But Jesus was so when speaking to those that pretended to serve God properly. Have a good evening. 

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31 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I would not call it “dumb” if I were you.

The four windows reminds us of the four angels on the four corners of the earth holding tight the four winds of the earth. The carpet covering the dirt of the floor reminds up of the love that is to cover the sins of others. The blue reminds us of heaven where those 4 angels hang out on a nice day.

”You were running well. Who hindered you from keeping on obeying the truth?”

 

Um, Idol worship me thinks  

[JW Insider]

49 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

The teachings on the Trinity and Hell etc, are from God's word, not from the Soc / W/t / GB / JW Org. I see no reason to pat the Org on the back for believing what God tells us in His written word. 

Maybe. But like I said, I would not be comfortable in an association that got involved in divisive politics and war either, and I think we're right on the idea of a paradise earth. Find me another church with approximately the same teachings and practices JWs have on war, politics, trinity and hell, and a future paradise on earth, and I will visit it with an open mind.

49 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

But unfortunately I have seen the shunning of people, and the looking down on people when they re-enter the hall. 

Shunning is a bit like what Jesus said regarding divorce. Even though it came from the perfect law of God, Jesus said it was just a concession that came from Moses out of regard for human hard-heartedness. We all have a lot to learn about love, but this doesn't mean we associate so freely with just anyone, either.

49 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

So, i haven't seen this love you talk of.

I can find it at almost any meeting, especially visible at the very largest of our conventions, but I also can see it from afar when I happen to drive near a group of Witnesses working a local suburban territory. I can wave and see all smiles, no matter what kind of a day they are having.  I have even run across Witnesses in Paris and other places and can get the same reaction. Yes, up to a point this is at least partly true of many clubs, associations, and even other religious groups. But I know what is driving that smile among Witnesses, and I like it.

49 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

Even the ministry here in southern England, i found that congregants were not even keen to go out.

Not all congregations have the same level of joy, love, "spirit" etc. Revelation 2 & 3 lets us know that this shouldn't be surprising.

Speaking of southern England, I was using a flight simulator just last night and took off out of London over satellite-imaged terrain to see if I could keep a purely visual course from Gatwick to Paris just by guessing when to adjust slightly over a SSE direction. I just watched the compass, and altitude, and crossed the Channel from Eastbourne to Dieppe to Paris. Did OK, but then I thought of "you" and turned around to see if I could find a house I thought you and your wife were working on, which I had found a year ago from satellite imagery and some Google help. Even at 400 mph it was going to take too long, and when I got closer I switched to a slow prop plane to get a better look at the ground. This time I couldn't find that house from memory, although I'd recognize the area from a few thousand feet.

Now it turns out you are in "southern England" a whole new spot no doubt.from the place I thought you were at. 😉

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

The four windows reminds us of the four angels on the four corners of the earth holding tight the four winds of the earth. The carpet covering the dirt of the floor reminds up of the love that is to cover the sins of others. The blue reminds us of heaven where those 4 angels hang out on a nice day.

The burning question on MOST peoples' minds is:

If all four windows in the house face South .... what color is the Bear ?

[JW Insider]

26 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

The bigger picture is outsiders understand the 2520 concept to be a real understanding of scripture. It doesn’t matter if people here believe it or not.

Not that the majority are always right anyway, but I think that hardly any Bible scholars understand the "2520 concept" to be scriptural. I just looked up 10 online commentaries on Daniel 4 and NONE of them considered the number 2520. The number 2520 is not found in the Bible. Extrapolating 2520 days from 7 times is already a stretch, and turning those days to solar years is another stretch. Even this word iddan (time) that Daniel uses, just means a time period, which CAN be a year, but not always specifically a year. In fact, how long is this period in Dan 7:12? (below)

These verses represent the majority of the uses of iddan in Daniel outside Daniel 4, itself:

(Daniel 2:8, 9) . . .The king replied: “I am well-aware that you are trying to gain time [the time, iddan], for you realize what my final word is. 9 If you do not make the dream known to me, there is only one penalty for all of you. But you have agreed to tell me something false and deceitful until the situation [the time, iddan] changes. So tell me the dream, and I will know that you can explain its interpretation.”

(Daniel 2:20, 21) . . .“Let the name of God be praised for all eternity, For wisdom and mightiness are his alone. 21 He changes times [the times, iddan] and seasons, Removes kings and sets up kings,. . .

(Daniel 3:15) Now when [at the time, iddan] you hear the sound of the horn, the pipe, the zither, the triangular harp, the stringed instrument, the bagpipe, and all the other musical instruments, if you are ready to fall down and worship the image that I have made, fine.. . .

(Daniel 7:12) But as for the rest of the beasts, their rulerships were taken away, and their lives were prolonged for a time [time, iddan] and a season.

1 hour ago, César Chávez said:

It doesn’t matter that people that support people here out of their own misconceptions in agreeing with people that don’t understand, becomes inconsequential.

At least I can inconsequentially agree with you there.

1 hour ago, César Chávez said:

Again, this number of three times, (or years) and a half, is always commenced in Scripture, not at the commencement of the present vision of the great image, but about the middle of its history. The conclusion is therefore very natural and probable, that the period of the continuance of the present vision, from its rise to its termination, containing within It, as it does, the entire history of the four great empires, is seven times, or 2520 years, being twice the three times and a half, or 1260 years.

Your quote from "The Christian Guardian" (February 1830) reports on Mr. Faber's interpretation of prophecy, and reminds me of what we spoke of earlier on these topics: that people will always look for a time period long enough to reach their own day. In the 1200's, people could easily reach their own day with a 1260 year period. In the 1400's one could always take a 1335 year period and tack it on to some event in Jesus' life. But when the 1800's rolled around, there were no 1800 year periods. They could start looking for events 2300 years earlier and even more, but that ended up nowhere. During these years Miller, among others, was forced to use a 2520 year period, never found in the Bible. So in the 1830's Miller had to use conjecture to attach a 2520 year period to attach to some event about Babylon from the book of Daniel.

The full context of your quote is here. https://books.google.com/books?id=Rg8EAAAAQAAJ  (p.41,42)  As you partly indicate, the person behind your 1830 quote above did something quite similar, doubling the 1260 year periods, for no other reason other than he thought that 3.5 seemed like it needed to be doubled since it was half of 7. Then he attaches that 2520 to a Daniel reference, in this case Nebuchadnezzar, the head of gold -- and he used his birth year, assumed to be about 657 BC. This was a means of reaching his own modern times, and therefore was able to falsely predict 1864 as the end of the gentile times.

But I don't know how impressed we should be that a person was able to make another false prediction for his own generation. Here's what the Watchtower said about such false alarms:

*** w53 11/1 p. 647 Christ’s Second Presence No False Alarm ***
Following Augustine’s time . . .  all were misinterpreted as “signs” foretelling the imminent return of Christ. Joachin of Floris determined that the 1,260 days mentioned in Revelation 12:6 could turn out to be the year A.D. 1260 when Christ would return. Militz of Kromeriz, a forerunner of John Huss, looked for the coming of Christ between the years 1365 and 1367. Wycliffe pointed to the power of the papacy and emphasized that the time of the return was at hand. John Napier predicted the coming end of evil and the return of Christ between the years 1688 and 1700. William Whiston first selected 1715, then 1734, and later 1866 as the date for the inauguration of the millennium.
In the early part of the nineteenth century Christoph Hoffman hurried from Germany to Jerusalem to rebuild the temple in preparation for Christ’s early return. William Miller predicted that Christ would make his appearance during the year 1843, but later postponed the day to October 22, 1844. When these speculations did not materialize, religious sects became a laughingstock, great divisions took place among them, the doctrine was scoffed at, the people who taught it were jeered, and as a whole the idea was pooh-poohed in religious and nonreligious circles alike. All, without exception, were false alarms.

2 hours ago, César Chávez said:

What matters, how God made it known to humanity.

It looks like God didn't make it known, except to make it known that the attempt is a waste of time, false stories leading to nothing. These mistakes are just examples of humans "flailing" because men's egos make them forget what Jesus said about the times and seasons being only in the Father's jurisdiction. Not even angels could figure out the times and seasons, but this didn't stop men from treading there.

2 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Therefore, it doesn’t matter who calculated what for what time period. The period that God provided by physical evidence becomes the prevailing evidence for humanity.

If God had provided the evidence, surely these men including Russell and Barbour and Miller and Faber and Rutherford would have been able to predict something correct with that evidence. 100 percent of Russell's predictions for 1914 turned out to be false.

2 hours ago, César Chávez said:

People can continue to reject the other 1260. That is the evidence provided here.

The evidence you provided here was that the first period of 1260 years ended in AD 604., in the time of Pope Gregory the Great, and the spread of Buddhism, etc., in the medieval period. The second period of 1260 was also to have started around this time. The Watchtower Society rejects both of these 1260's, too. For the WTS the 1260 periods from Daniel and Revelation are not even years, they are literal days starting just about 3 days after Christmas in 1914 and reaching up to the Summer Solstice of 1918.

2 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Opinions don’t matter. Approval of disingenuous people toward each other doesn’t matter. What matters, who is faithful to God, and who will heed his signs.

Good! Something else I can agree with completely.

2 hours ago, César Chávez said:

What is indisputable, everyone that has calculated the “gentile times” has started with Nebuchadnezzar’s time period. They either, use his birth, his command, his reign or enthronement as a starting point. But the use the same time period.

Very false! Complete nonsense. It is very rare that anyone calculates the Gentile Times with a period of 2520. After all, Revelation indicates that it should be calculated with a period of 42 months, or 1260 days. And nowhere does it say that this period is about 1260 years.

(Luke 21:24) . . .into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.

(Revelation 11:2) . . .to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for 42 months.

Nowhere do these two references to the Gentile Times refer to a second period of 1260 days, just one. Also, we can see from Jesus said in Luke 21, that these Gentile Times had NOT yet started, so it couldn't have reached back to Nebuchadnezzar anyway.

[TrueTomHarley]

I propose that they change from 1914 on April 1, primarily to get Allen’s reaction. The next day they change it back. April Fool.

5 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

if God is not inspiring anyone to translate His word properly, there lies the pit into which we can fall. And if the 'religion' we choose, chooses to misrepresent God's word, then it creates more problems. 

Who cares, if the word is not translated properly? It seems to me that you have fallen a long ways. A) you don’t trust JW’s, but B) you don’t trust anyone else, either, since Holy Spirit hasn’t gotten around to inspiring a true translation that can be trusted.

You have a very strange view of Holy Spirit and what it is supposed to do. It sometimes seems to me that the day you stopped believing in Santa you started to believe in Holy Spirit as a one-on-one substitute.

5 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

There is a massive difference between teaching lies and deciding how many windows to have in a hall. ...you seem to need to stay in the JW Org because it is your life.

Throw another window in his Kingdom Hall, and the spiritual wuss will be stumbled and out by the evening.

[JW Insider]

3 hours ago, César Chávez said:

If scripture stipulates 2 instances of 1260 and can be proven overwhelmingly, then one opinion doesn't matter.

That's true, if it can be proven.

But the Watchtower says that these two instances of 1260 refer to the same events, both the 1260 in Daniel and the 1260 in Revelation. As I said they go from about December 28, 1914 to about June 21, 1918. So both of them equal about 1,271 days. Nothing about years. And they overlap perfectly, so they are not back to back like the evidence you gave from Faber's failed prediction.

You accept the Watchtower's interpretation of 1914, right? So, why don't you accept the Watchtower's interpretation of the 1260 days? Is it because you believe that a different interpretation from the Watchtower has been proved overwhelmingly?

I've explained that my reasons are Biblical. I'm not comfortable with traditions that conflict with scripture. But it appears you prefer overwhelming proof from someone who was clearly wrong, and had no scriptural foundation for his belief. I'll summarize your overwhelming proof that you quoted from 1830:

1. The Bible indicates that the Gentile Times are 1,260 days in Revelation 11.
2. But if we turn those days into years, we can't find anything important that started at some point in the past and ended 1,260 years later close to our own generation.
3. But if we multiply that number by 2 we find we could get from an event in Nebuchadnezzar's lifetime to 1864.
4. Now we can even make an assumption about something that might have happened at the midpoint of those two periods of 1260 years.
5. Therefore, the Gentile Times will end in 1864.

I think the only thing that your Faber evidence got right by 1830 was the fact that he understood the correct way to handle the 0 year problem. 100 years later the Watchtower still hadn't resolved that particular mistake, but they did finally get the zero year right in 1943/4.

[JW Insider]

11 hours ago, César Chávez said:

I believe I made it clear, that was just to show others concurring with the 2520 prophecy, not the erred timing.

But you did NOT show any others concurring with the 2520 prophecy. "The 2520 prophecy" according to the Watchtower, is the tree dream of Daniel 4, where the non-Jewish, wicked king Nebuchadnezzar represents the Jewish Kingdom at Jerusalem. Nebuchadnezzar is toppled, but banded and protected to rise again, so that his return to power represents Jesus' rise to power in 1914 as King of Jewish kingdom.

And it was not just the erred timing.

What you quoted and spoke of as "overwhelming proof" was about a man in 1830 who didn't even see these seven times as related to anything in Daniel 4. It had nothing to do with the 7 time periods of Nebuchadnezzar's insanity. He never hinted that this insanity pictured the Messianic Kingdom.*

But here's where you pulled another "Allen Smith." Allen Smith, you might remember, was well known on this forum for finding supposed evidence for something and not realizing that his evidence actually showed just the OPPOSITE of what he wanted to prove.

Here's how you did that here.

20 hours ago, César Chávez said:

What is indisputable, everyone that has calculated the “gentile times” has started with Nebuchadnezzar’s time period. They either, use his birth, his command, his reign or enthronement as a starting point. But the use the same time period.

11 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Everyone starts with Nebuchadnezzar ii.

What you apparently hadn't realized is that the article you quoted from shows why Mr. Faber was WRONG. Not only wrong, but wrong to start with Nebuchadnezzar. The article shows why the more popular and preferable period of 2,520 years needs to start, NOT WITH NEBUCHADNEZZAR, but with the Assyrian assault on Israel in 728 BC, as already presented by Cuninghame who, by this logic, would have mapped two 1260 year periods as follows:

I. B.C. 728. Commencement of the subjugation of Israel and Judah by the Assyrians snd Babylonians.

II. A. D. 533. Decree of Justinian, establishing the Papal Supremacy, and the worship of the Virgin Mary.

III. A.D. 1792. Commencement of the Judgments on the Papacy, in the French Revolution.

Periods II to III above, were within 6 or 7 years of the same endpoints that Miller, Barbour and Russell accepted for the 1260-year period. Russell ran it from AD 539 to AD 1799. (sometimes AD 538 to 1798).

So what you called indisputable was disputed by your own reference. As you might recall, this is why I suspected that Allen Smith would rarely tell where he got his references from, because it so often led to someone reading that reference and seeing how it often demolished his supposed "indisputable" and "overwhelming" evidence. And Allen's common "defense" was to claim that persons were only using "word play" to prove him wrong.