2 Types of Worshippers on the Earth

[the Sower of Seed]

2 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

The Him in this scripture is Jesus, agreed? 

All things came into existence through him (Jesus)

The Almighty God Jehovah supplied the knowledge, the wisdom and the power. Jehovah is called the Creator at many verses,

Isaiah 40:28 Do you not know? Have you not heard? Jehovah, the Creator of the ends of the earth, is a God for all eternity. He never tires out or grows weary. His understanding is unsearchable.

As a Loving Father, He gives his son credit for the creation.

[the Sower of Seed]

20 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

If Jesus is GOD than the Sacrifice is INVALID

ALMIGHTY GOD YHWH had no beginning.

ALMIGHTY GOD YHWH created Michael, His Only Begotten Firstborn Son who was born Jesus.

ALMIGHTY GOD YHWH Said: Let US Create Man In OUR Image

ALMIGHTY GOD YHWH together with Jesus made everything else. 

ALMIGHTY GOD YHWH allowed His Firstborn the Joy of Helping his Daddy make things: All things came into existence through him

ALMIGHTY GOD YHWH is a loving Father, Many Fathers on Earth have allowed their sons to help them in imitation of Him.

Now We see and imagine the Fatherly Love Jehovah had for Jesus.

Jesus had corresponding love for his father.

After the 2 of them created Eden, Adam and Eve everything was Good.

Love was developing for Adam over many years and then it began for Eve.

This was the culmination of millions of years of creation.

The angels burst out in applause over these things.

Then Satan entered Eden and wrecked the good feeling of all.

In His Holiness, Jehovah pushed the rebels away and would not hear them.

The angels and flaming swords represent that vast divide.

They were criminals against the center of Justice in the universe,

they were like mud as compared to Jehovah's Righteousness, as Pure White Wool.

There was no way man could redeem themselves.

A perfect man just like Adam, without defect was needed to redeem mankind. 

According to Divine Law: Eye For Eye. A corresponding sacrifice must be Perfect Man for Perfect Man.

What was Adam when he was put to the test?

Was he a god?

Was he an angel?

Did he have holy spirit helping him resist?

For Divine Justice to be satisfied: Jesus had to be the same flesh as Adam, Eye for Eye.

John 1:14 So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth.

Exodus 21:23 But if a fatality does occur, then you must give life for life,24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,25 burn for burn, wound for wound, blow for blow.

But the gift is not like the trespass. For if by one man’s trespass many died, how much more did the undeserved kindness of God and his free gift by the undeserved kindness of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound to many!

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus,6 who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all—this is what is to be witnessed to in its own due time.

If Jesus was God or an angel or empowered with holy spirit, then he was not the same as the perfect flesh, Adam. If Jesus was any of these then the Bible is misleading and corrupt and the Sacrifice is INVALID, the vast divide still exist! 

 

 

 

 

[Shiwiii]

16 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

All things came into existence through him (Jesus)

I take this as an agreement that you believe the scripture we were talking about was about Jesus. 

So you agree that all things came into existence through Jesus, but you do not agree with the rest of John 1:3 where it states that not one thing that was made (created) was made (created) without Jesus.  Do I get this right? 

4 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

According to Divine Law: Eye For Eye. A corresponding sacrifice must be Perfect Man for Perfect Man.

please support this with scripture. I've heard it before, but I'd like to see the support for this. Your scripture in Exodus was dealing with the Jews and how they should handle internal conflicts, not God and His plans. God can do anything, as you know, so what makes you or anyone think that God requires like for like? There isn't a scripture that states this that I remember. 

 

Also, just to note: if Adam and Eve were perfect, then why did they sin? Perfection does not have a flaw, sin is a flaw....albeit deep down and not shown...still a flaw. 

[the Sower of Seed]

6 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

So you agree that all things came into existence through Jesus, but you do not agree with the rest of John 1:3 where it states that not one thing that was made (created) was made (created) without Jesus.  Do I get this right?

Up until Satan spoke with Eve there were 2 things Jesus did not create: himself and Jehovah.

 GOD was speaking to Jesus at Genesis 1:26 Then God said: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every creeping animal that is moving on the earth.” 

You agree?

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus,6 who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all—this is what is to be witnessed to in its own due time.

The standard of God, eye for eye, found in the Law is a Principle of GOD. The Law is a tutor, teaching us today the views of GOD, the ROCK, unchanging.

We learn how He feels about murder, abortion, sexual relations, stealing, etc.....The Law is not binding today, but the principles are.

Jesus had to be corresponding to Adam in order for justice to occur.

After all, why did Jesus have to come to earth? Why did God not just forgive them? The 4 cardinal attributes of Jehovah are Love, Power, Wisdom and JUSTICE. 

Jehovah could not forgive Adam because Adam was Perfect. He had a relationship with Jehovah and understood the one law of Eden.

Even though Jehovah loved his first human son, Divine Law required Adam be held responsible for his thoughts and actions.

The Greek word for corresponding ransom has the flavor of "complete purchase price" Jesus had to match Adam, to pay the complete price, not one penny less.

What is the value of perfection, of a perfect man who could live forever?

How much would a court value him? 

The entire population today could not equal it! 

 

 

 

[the Sower of Seed]

On 1/10/2020 at 8:32 PM, the Sower of Seed said:

Up until Satan spoke with Eve there were 2 things Jesus did not create: himself and Jehovah.

2 Corinthians 10.5 For we are overturning reasonings and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are bringing every thought into captivity to make it obedient to the Christ; 

We MUST actively be bringing every thought into captivity, refuting falsehoods so that our sacrifice is to Him, GOD Almighty YHWH Jehovah and not demons. This is the mandatory action of everyone who would find pleasure in Jehovah and His Son. For if we worship a falsehood, or in falsehood, we worship demons who are in association with Satan the Devil, the father of the lie. Try to imagine that fact, that for eons, there were no lies spoken between all the spirits of Heaven. Not one lie in Heaven!  

Christ was a fleshly mirror of God, his thoughts were in union with God's. He spent eons with his Creator. He spoke of reverence toward his Father and taught mankind to pray to Him as God. Jesus affirmed he was the son of God, not God in the flesh.The Family representation from the Bible means a lot and we should always remember that YHWH is the Unsurpassed Almighty GOD and Father of every living thing, Jesus is a son among many. He was firstborn and knows his Father the best. They have a united bond of love from the ages they have shared.

We MUST examine every belief as to "why do I believe this"? What is the touchstone? The Entire Bible.

All Scripture is inspired by ONE GOD, His thought should match everywhere in the Bible, from beginning to end, from Genesis to Revelation, we should hear the same voice and thought of God Almighty YHWH.

We must harmonize every scripture speaking of God to know "Who is God?"and "What does He Hope for us and from us?"

The True Worshipers will be eager to know GOD. What does He say toward every belief we have. He has Exposed to us how He feels about what is the best way of life, not only for OURSELVES, but for the OTHER PERSON and the Entire Body of Life.

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness,17 so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.

Romans 15:4 For all the things that were written beforehand were written for our instruction, so that through our endurance and through the comfort from the Scriptures we might have hope. 

The Bible many time speaks about giving Jehovah the best Sacrifice. He gave guidelines as to what was approved and the joy that we should have in giving it. He spoke through Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Saul, David, Solomon, Hezekiah, Jesus and the Apostles, of to who and what that sacrifice is. When He gave Jesus, He gave the Best He had of His angelic creation.

Jesus had to be a perfect man just as the pre-sin Adam was, that excludes Jesus from having any godly or angelic powers. The miracles Jesus performed were the same as the Apostles performed, all accomplished by GOD's Holy Spirit. The painful suffering and godly restraint were human, an example of what the man of God can and should do. 

I John 2:2 And he is a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins, yet not for ours only but also for the whole world’s. 

1 John 4:10 The love is in this respect, not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins.

Hebrews 4:12 But this man offered one sacrifice for sins for all time and sat down at the right hand of God, 

1 Corinthians 10:20 No; but I say that what the nations sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God; and I do not want you to become sharers with the demons. 

How are they Sacrificing to demons? They Worship in FALSEHOOD, NOT TO THE TRUTH OF GOD.

The Bible Exalts Jehovah as the Almighty, the Creator, the Eternal of the past and future, Without Beginning and End, He is the Lawgiver, He is the Giver of Christ Jesus, He is the Hearer of Prayer, He is the embodiment of Love, Justice, Wisdom and Power. All the angels praise Him in acknowledgment of this:

Revelation 4:11 “You are worthy, Jehovah our God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, because you created all things, and because of your will they came into existence and were created.”

We then ask who is speaking at Genesis 1:26 Then God said: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness,and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every creeping animal that is moving on the earth. Who was God speaking to? 

GOD ALMIGHTY YHWH is speaking to Michael / Jesus. Jehovah loved him so much, He created many others like him using Michael / Jesus as His helper. This statement is in unity with Revelation 4:11 as truth.

Jehovah is the Almighty God, who loves his creation so much HE GAVE IS BELOVED SON, JESUS, IN OUR BEHALF.

Hebrews 10:5 So when he (Jesus) comes into the world, he (Jesus) says: “‘Sacrifice and offering you (GOD YHWH) did not want, but you (GOD YHWH) prepared a body for me. 

Many may find reverence to Jesus, prayer to Jesus, worship of Jesus as a lofty thing. The True Worshipers will Worship Jehovah God while loving Jesus for all he accomplished in teaching us who God is. We Honor Jesus as our teacher and instructor, knowing his commands are from Jehovah. We are eternally grateful all he has suffered in our behalf. We acknowledge that Jesus is the firstborn son of the Creator Jehovah and is loved by Him as an obedient son. We Recognize, like the angels of Revelation 4:11, All Prayer and Praise should be directed to You the Father Jehovah, the Giver of Life and every good thing. 

 

 

 

 

[Shiwiii]

On 1/10/2020 at 6:32 PM, the Sower of Seed said:

Jesus did not create: himself and Jehovah.

you're right! this is because according to John 1:3 nothing was created without Jesus that was ever created. So YHWH was always existing. Glad we agree. 

 

On 1/10/2020 at 6:32 PM, the Sower of Seed said:

GOD was speaking to Jesus at Genesis 1:26 Then God said: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every creeping animal that is moving on the earth.” 

You agree?

yup

On 1/10/2020 at 6:32 PM, the Sower of Seed said:

Jesus had to be corresponding to Adam in order for justice to occur.

unsubstantiated 

 

On 1/10/2020 at 6:32 PM, the Sower of Seed said:

Adam was Perfect

disagree, something perfect does not have a flaw nor does it gain a flaw, for then it is not perfect. 

 

On 1/10/2020 at 6:32 PM, the Sower of Seed said:

The Greek word for corresponding ransom has the flavor of "complete purchase price"

give the word. 

 

 

I didn't finish reading the other post you had.....sorry I had to stop because it sounded like a cut and paste out of a wt. So many assumptions with NOTHING backing it. 

[the Sower of Seed]

20 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

unsubstantiated 

ALMOST EVERY EXPRESSION IS MINE. Scripture are copied.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus,6 who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all—this is what is to be witnessed to in its own due time.

WHO DID JESUS SACRIFICE CORRESPOND TO?

20 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

Adam was Perfect

@Shiwiii said disagree, something perfect does not have a flaw nor does it gain a flaw, for then it is not perfect.

You believe God created us to suffer a few years and die? 

Or

When God Cursed the land he changed Adam and Eve from perfect to imperfect?

[Shiwiii]

2 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus,6 who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all—this is what is to be witnessed to in its own due time.

Do you realize that the word "corresponding " is not in the ancient manuscripts and is inserted by men to meet an agenda? That agenda is to equate Jesus with Adam, just as you are doing. Adam and Jesus were not equals, never were and never will be. Jesus created Adam (John 1:3). Adam could not create anything but trouble for himself and his wife, lol. 

 

Weymouth New Testament
1 Timothy 2:6 (WNT) who gave Himself as the redemption price for all--a fact testified to at its own appointed time,

The Webster Bible
1 Timothy 2:6 (WBT) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Young's Literal Translation
1 Timothy 2:6 (YLT) who did give himself a ransom for all -- the testimony in its own times --

Wycliffe
1 Timothy 2:6 (WYC) that gave himself redemption for all men. Whose witnessing is confirmed in his times;

World English Bible
1 Timothy 2:6 (WEB) who gave himself as a ransom for all; the testimony in its own times;

Tyndale
1 Timothy 2:6 (TYN) which gave him silfe a raunsome for all men that it shuld be testified at his tyme

Third Millennium Bible w/ Apocrypha
1 Timothy 2:6 (TMBA) who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

Revised Standard Version
1 Timothy 2:6 (RSV) who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time.

Third Millennium Bible
1 Timothy 2:6 (TMB) who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

Revised Standard Version w/ Apocrypha
1 Timothy 2:6 (RSVA) who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time.

SBL Greek New Testament
1 Timothy 2:6 (SBLG) ὁ δοὺς ἑαυτὸν ἀντίλυτρον ὑπὲρ πάντων, τὸ μαρτύριον καιροῖς ἰδίοις ·

Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible
1 Timothy 2:6 (RHE) Who gave himself a redemption for all, a testimony in due times.

New Revised Standard w/ Apocrypha
1 Timothy 2:6 (NRSA) who gave himself a ransom for all —this was attested at the right time.

Orthodox Jewish Bible
Timotiyos I 2:6 (OJB) The one who gave his nefesh [YESHAYAH 53:10-12] as a kofer (ransom), on behalf of all. The edut (testimony) of this was given at the right time.

New Century Version
1 Timothy 2:6 (NCV) He gave himself as a payment to free all people. He is proof that came at the right time.

New Revised Standard
1 Timothy 2:6 (NRS) who gave himself a ransom for all —this was attested at the right time.

Jubilee Bible 2000
1 Timothy 2:6 (JUB) who gave himself in ransom for all, the testimony of which <em>was confirmed</em> at the time,

New Living Translation
1 Timothy 2:6 (NLT) He gave his life to purchase freedom for everyone. This is the message God gave to the world at just the right time.

New King James Version
1 Timothy 2:6 (NKJV) who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

New International Version
1 Timothy 2:6 (NIV) who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

New International Reader's Version
1 Timothy 2:6 (NIRV) He gave himself to pay for the sins of everyone. That was a witness given by God at just the right time.

Lexham English Bible
1 Timothy 2:6 (LEB) who gave himself a ransom for all, the testimony at the proper time,

New American Standard Bible
1 Timothy 2:6 (NAS) who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.

The Message Bible
1 Timothy 2:6 (MSG) who offered himself in exchange for everyone held captive by sin, to set them all free. Eventually the news is going to get out.

Good News Translation
1 Timothy 2:6 (GNT) who gave himself to redeem the whole human race. That was the proof at the right time that God wants everyone to be saved,

GOD'S WORD Translation
1 Timothy 2:6 (GW) He sacrificed himself for all people to free them from their sins. This message is valid for every era.

King James Version w/ Apocrypha
1 Timothy 2:6 (KJVA) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

King James Version
1 Timothy 2:6 (KJV) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Good News Translation w/ Apocrypha
1 Timothy 2:6 (GNTA) who gave himself to redeem the whole human race. That was the proof at the right time that God wants everyone to be saved,

Hebrew Names Version
1 Timothy 2:6 (HNV) who gave himself as a ransom for all; the testimony in its own times;

The Darby Translation
1 Timothy 2:6 (DBY) who gave himself a ransom for all, the testimony [to be rendered] in its own times;

English Standard Version
1 Timothy 2:6 (ESV) who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

The Bible in Basic English
1 Timothy 2:6 (BBE) Who gave himself as an offering for all; witness of which was to be given at the right time;

Common English Bible
1 Timothy 2:6 (CEB) who gave himself as a payment to set all people free. This was a testimony that was given at the right time.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
1 Timothy 2:6 (CSB) who gave Himself-a ransom for all, a testimony at the proper time.

The Complete Jewish Bible
1 Timothy 2:6 (CJB) who gave himself as a ransom on behalf of all, thus providing testimony to God's purpose at just the right time.

Common English Bible w/ Apocrypha
1 Timothy 2:6 (CEBA) who gave himself as a payment to set all people free. This was a testimony that was given at the right time.

American Standard Version
1 Timothy 2:6 (ASV) who gave himself a ransom for all; the testimony [to be borne] in its own times;

 

All of these different versions of the Bible state that Jesus gave Himself as a ransom for all, not a corresponding ransom. Nothing is stated as equality here in the verse. Also to note, in the Codex Sinaiticus the word used is 

G487

ἀντίλυτρον

antilutron

an-til'-oo-tron

From G473 and G3083 ; a redemption price: - ransom.

Nothing indicates an equal ransom. I'm not saying you can't believe that it does, but the facts show that it does not. 

 

2 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

You believe God created us to suffer a few years and die? 

Or

When God Cursed the land he changed Adam and Eve from perfect to imperfect?

No God did not create us to suffer and die, He created us to live in harmony with Him. It was our (Adam's) choice to disobey and we continue to do so to this day. This is why Jesus came to redeem us. God knew we would fall short, that is why the Bible tells us that we were chosen before the world began:

Ephesians 1 

1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,

To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

 

 

 

 

Also to note, have you noticed that the letters Paul wrote to the different cities all start kind of the same:

Romans 1:1 Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God,

1 Corinthians 1:1 Paul, called as an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

2 Corinthians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother,

Philippians 1:1 Paul and Timothy, bond-servants of Christ Jesus,

Colossians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother,

 

Why are Paul and Timothy not declaring that they are Jehovah's witnesses but rather stating that they are belonging to Jesus and are followers of Him. This is what they proudly proclaim in written form.  Just an FYI. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Arauna]

On 1/13/2020 at 9:39 PM, Shiwiii said:

unsubstantiated

Jesus did create Adam and was the first creation of jehovah. However he did not have immortality. He received immortality from jehovah at his resurrection.

When he was on earth he was in flesh completely equal to Adam. He was a perfect human being in flesh and did not have an immortal soul.

1 cor 15:45  " it is written: the first man Adam became a living soul; the last Adam life-giving spirit.

 Here it calls Jesus the last Adam and indicates he was raised up as a spirit.  While on earth he was equivalent to Adam but received immortality afterward. The rest of the chapter discusses resurrection to heavenly life.

Hebrews 2 : 17 "  I struggled for a long time to get this verse copied. My fingers and iPad did not comply. Please read this verse in any translation...... it proves the point.

 

[Shiwiii]

8 minutes ago, Arauna said:

he was in flesh completely equal to Adam.

I disagree equality with Adam. Nothing in scripture states equality with Adam. 

9 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Here it calls Jesus the last Adam

Yes, but context is what prevails here. Scripture is not stating equality with Adam as a man, but rather as we received a sentence of death from the first Adam, we receive a sentence of life from Jesus; making Jesus an "Adam" in a sense of giving to all a sentence, similar to the first Adam.   

[Arauna]

2 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

Adam" in a sense of giving to all a sentence, similar to the first Adam. 

You did not read hebrews 2 : 17 which clearly states that he had to become similar to his brothers in all respects..... to provide a "propitiatory" sacrifice. He had to suffer like them and give his soul in death like them..... if jesus did not really die - the randsom sacrifice was not really paid and there is no resurrection.  Read 1 cor 15 - the chapter.

[Shiwiii]

5 minutes ago, Arauna said:

You did not read hebrews 2 : 17 which clearly states that he had to become similar to his brothers in all respects..... to provide a "propitiatory" sacrifice. He had to suffer like them and give his soul in death like them..... if jesus did not really die - the randsom sacrifice was not really paid and there is no resurrection.  Read 1 cor 15 - the chapter.

again, context is key. The part in which you are referring to is explaining the nature of man and how Jesus needed to be fully man in order to have US reconcile Him to us and accept His offering as a sacrifice for mankind. This was not to satisfy God or some equality requirement but instead for US.  Did you happen to notice in verse 14 were it states that He partook, or shared in the experience of mankind. This is voluntary and not because of limitations. Verse 16 speaks of Jesus being tempted, just as we are tempted, Why? Why would Jesus need to be tempted? So that we can come to Him, He can relate directly to our desires and our human thinking and help us. It is for this reason and many more that He is the WAY.