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2 Types of Worshippers on the Earth

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John 4:23 states:"Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him"

What 2 types of worshippers are there according to the Bible and what belief or actions define them?

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1 hour ago, Arauna said:

Go ahead, I presume it is a rhetorical question

No, I had hoped for expressions different ones use from day to day that I might plagiarize somewhere else. I appreciate that just as Jesus spoke of True worshipers who worship the Father in spirit and truth, there must be false worshipers who worship God with lies and falsehoods.

To those who believe that God and Christ are the same being, after thoughts of creation and Jesus being Jehovah's firstborn. I often reason about how Jesus is a Gift of God and who is the Greater the Giver or the Gift?

WHO is Greater  

The Gift or the Giver?

 

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Coming to mind:  our relationship with jehovah must be truthful.  He knows when we are not truthful, when we are not honest with Him or with ourselves.

Our relationship with our neighbours must always be truthful because we cannot live with a mask- be hypocritical in what we say or do. What we say, do and think must be in line with Jehovahs moral standards - that is integrity.

There is the kind of person who goes after fleshly desires and those who follow spiritual desires - with spiritual we mean -  in line with Jehovahs  bible principles and purpose for us..

There is a modern trend to called " to be spiritual".  Even atheists are spiritual. This is satanic deception because this is a fake persona to present oneself as "deep" when you may be reading horoscopes or other activities which are totally  against Jehovahs moral standards.

Satan is a "spirit" -  so spiritual could mean you are under his influence. To serve Jehovah in spirit and truth means to believe he is a rewarding spirit with no equal in wisdom, mercy, love, power, and justice and all his wonderful qualities - he exists - and obey his unparalleled principles.  To believe his Word and strictly obey it and to know that soon he will remove all fake "sprituality" with its pretentious  love for deception and lies and independence from Jehovah .....and remove satan and his demons who are the father/originators of it.

To be "spiritual or mindful" is a new way to say you are "not religious in the conventional way" of acknowledging the bible and its principles. You are now sophisticated  and following your own independent way. You are "religious" without acknowledging the living God jehovah.

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I think there are even different types of JWs. Some are quite happy to accept anything the GB / Writing dept' say/write, others are deeper thinking but say little, yet others are deep thinking and talk about their thoughts. Back in my days of doing field service I would go back to friend's house for coffee and biscuits afterwards and we would discuss spiritual matters and congregation matters. There were many things that we were not happy with, within the JW Org, but he chose to stay with it all and I chose to stop attending meetings. 

I think the GB / writing dept / JW Org can be described as not serving God properly. They admit to not being inspired, and it can be seen that their written words are not even guided by God or Christ. So JW Org is no better than the Catholic church in many ways. After all, some on here often compare JW Org with other religions, saying that they all suffer the same problems. 

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3 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

I think there are even different types of JWs. Some are quite happy to accept anything the GB

There can only be one true way. The GB is feeding the new sheep in their delicate time, many will mature and progress, but never against the Slave that God is using as an administration to speak to His slaves in their imperfection.If you learned the truth apart from them, then you should praise God rather than complain.

The Catholic Church withheld the Bible and the precious truth Jesus leads people to.The clergy elevate themselves over the common parishioners as the Jewish priesthood did, this is the opposite that the GB has done. They have worked side by side in the ministry that is spreading around the Earth, they extend their hand to shake not to be kissed. The Catholic Church is the epitome of the "false worship" of Christianity, their doctrine has nothing in common with Truth. 

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5 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

So JW Org is no better than the Catholic church in many ways. After all, some on here often compare JW Org with other religions, saying that they all suffer the same problems. 

We are all in this world and there are fleshly people/individuals who follow human desires and spiritual people who follow god's desires / purpose for us.  When people become fleshly after knowing God -  they follow their own human desires.......a most common phenomena  everywhere on earth and this thinking overcomes  JW individuals too!

This is where any comparison with the Catholic church ends.  Our teachings differ like night and day. I will not repeat all the babylonian dogmas in the churches.

 You critisize us for shunning those who commit gross sins in one breath and then go on  to say we are similar  to churches who openly allow LGBTQ?    Please disect your own responses....

1 hour ago, the Sower of Seed said:

to.The clergy elevate themselves over the common parishioners as the Jewish priesthood did, this is the opposite that the GB has done. The

True, clergy are worshipped. Rabbis and Imams have such a hold over their people. In Islam they fear each other as well as their leaders because killing of  a "hypocrite"  is accepted practice.

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16 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

After all, some on here often compare JW Org with other religions, saying that they all suffer the same problems.

A large difference between the Witnesses and others is the Spiritual relationship with the being known only as Lord, Jesus or God in other religions. They have experienced spirituality, spirituality is a completely spiritual relationship between the only being that answers prayers. The Witnesses do not pray to the Lord or Jesus, they pray to Jehovah, He is the Eternal Almighty Universal Sovereign and Creator, the Only Hearer of prayers. Ps.65:1 Praise awaits you, O God, in Zion; We will pay our vows to you.2 O Hearer of prayer, to you people of all sorts will come.

The Witnesses can experience many responses from Him because of the Truthful Spiritual view they have of Him and their daily Bible reading. Spirituality is best related to mental nudity, for Jehovah is approached without any material image or imagination of His being.If you imagine God as any material image, you are misled and are becoming a false worshiper, for no man has seen God at Any time

Exodus 20: You must not have any other gods besides me. 4 “You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or on the earth below or in the waters under the earth.

There were no lies in the universe or images used to worship God until Satan approached Eve.When Adam sided with her, mankind severed themselves from the true knowledge of God and were cast away from Him.

What does the Creator want from mankind? From individuals? The same thing He experiences with angels, an eternal relationship based on His right to set the moral boundaries for mankind due to His Creatorship and His Wisdom.

That relationship will include inspiration or telepathy of thought, much like the human Jesus experienced, when they attain the latter part of the restoration. Acts 3:21 Heaven must hold this one within itself until the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke through the mouth of his holy prophets of old.

Mankind should never use any image, nor a cross, nor a crucifix, nor an image of Mary or an apostle, nor even imagine such things when praying to Almighty.For He is a Spirit, unseen to human eyes. He cares not that you are light or dark skinned, whether you are male or female,that you are rich or poor. He cares how you view Him and how you respect Him in spirit and truth.

His concern is that you worship Him in Spirit and Truth and follow His moral directions. Just as the angels,He expects everyone who comes to know Him to share their knowledge with others. Mtt.28:19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit,  20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

I'm sure you have seen the Witnesses expressing their gratitude and obedience to God like no other religion on Earth. 

John 4:23 Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.” 

There is a vast difference between the True & False worshipers! God has always shown One Direction as His Way. Noah by his acts, Moses by his acts, Jesus by his acts, the Witnesses by their acts.

Mtt.7:13“Go in through the narrow gate, because broad is the gate and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are going in through it;14 whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are finding it.15 “Be on the watch for the false prophets who come to you in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves.16 By their fruits you will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they?17 Likewise, every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit.18 A good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, nor can a rotten tree produce fine fruit.19 Every tree not producing fine fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.20 Really, then, by their fruits you will recognize those men.

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Really, then, by their fruits you will recognize those men.

This is true and any one with a sensible thinking mind and a spiritual thinking heart will know what lies and misuse of scripture the GB / JW Org and Bible Students / Watchtower society et al, have used to misguide people over the many years. 

And anyone that investigates the JW Org to find out its 'rules' will see that the GB / JW Org live by and enforce rules made by men, not by God. 

The scripture you quoted 

John 4:23 Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.” 

If only the GB and its Org would live by that scripture, then it would all be so different to what it is now.  Even the GB's lawyers tell lies in court. Elders tell lies to cover up sins of elders and others.  And it seems that the GB give permission for all this. They call it 'spiritual warfare'. 

This bit is so funny too :-

Quote : "The Catholic Church withheld the Bible and the precious truth Jesus leads people to "

OK, JWs are allowed to have Bibles and are encouraged to read them, BUT, JWs are then told to believe only the things that the GB teach. So you can read you Bible but don't you dare to form your own conclusions about any scriptures. For if your idea conflicts with GB teachings you are in big trouble, well if you just happen to mention it to anyone else that is. 

And this :- 

Quote "The clergy elevate themselves over the common parishioners as the Jewish priesthood did, "

Well well, the GB elevate themselves above the Anointed as well as the earthly class. 

Please remember there was a time when ALL ANOINTED HERE ON EARTH WERE CLASSED AS THE 'FAITHFUL AND DISCREET SLAVE CLASS'. 

BUT now the GB say ONLY THEY, THOSE 8 MEN, are the F&DS. Now that is definitely exalting themselves..  And we know what the scripture says about those that exalt themselves don't we ? 

Another quote :-

Exodus 20: You must not have any other gods besides me. 4 “You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or on the earth below or in the waters under the earth.

Watchtower says " Only baptised Jehovah's Witnesses will be saved".  Giving salvation to an Organisation is false worship, idol worship in fact. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, the Sower of Seed said:

The Witnesses do not pray to the Lord or Jesus, they pray to Jehovah, He is the Eternal Almighty Universal Sovereign and Creator, the Only Hearer of prayers. 

Jesus said, “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest..  Matt  11:28

How can that be done if one is not allowed to pray to Christ? The early temple was a place of worship.  If Jesus is the “chief cornerstone” of heavenly Zion/Holy City, Temple, he also deserves our relative worship.

I did not see a (literal) temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it.  Rev 21:22,23

 Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits[

    Hello guest!
] of God sent out into all the earth. He went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people. And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll
    and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
    and with your blood you purchased for God
    persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
    and they will reign[

    Hello guest!
] on the earth.”

11 Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. 12 In a loud voice they were saying:

“Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,
    to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
    and honor and glory and praise!”

13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying:

“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
    be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!”

14 The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshipedRev 5:6-14

They “fell down and worshiped” both the Father and Jesus Christ. 

Heb 1: 6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.” 

Men, who make up doctrine and change scripture by placing the word “obeisance” for any instances of worship given to Christ when on earth, have little regard for Jesus.  The same Greek word for “worship” is translated as “worship”, only when speaking of God, and ironically, Satan. 

Yes, the Wt uses the account of Luke 4:8, where Jesus said to Satan, “Worship the Lord your God and serve him only”.   Shouldn’t Satan have been doing that instead of demanding worship be given to himself? 

Open your eyes.  Your leaders may speak of Jesus, but they preach "another Jesus" than that of the early apostles.  2 Cor 11:34

 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.  Matt 23:13

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2 hours ago, Witness said:

Jesus said, “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest..  Matt  11:28

We come to Christ through imitation of him, not by prayer to him. Christ did not wear any images, Christ was never a soldier in any war of human government, nor did he hail Caesar or any other man. Christ was not a womanizer nor a drunkard. Christ did not dress in expensive garb or exult himself as the one to be worshiped.Christ did not use his authority to extract favors from anyone or abuse them.Jesus was in Heaven as Michael when many Bible verses were expressed from Jehovah's presence such as Exodus 20:3 God stated: "You must not have any other gods besides me." ........Not Even Jesus!

Deuteronomy 4:24 For Jehovah your God is a consuming fire, a God who requires exclusive devotion.

5:9 You must not bow down to them nor be led to serve them, for I, Jehovah your God, am a God who requires exclusive devotion, bringing punishment for the error of fathers upon sons, upon the third generation and upon the fourth generation of those who hate me, 

6:15 for Jehovah your God who is in your midst is a God who requires exclusive devotion. Otherwise, the anger of Jehovah your God will blaze against you and he will annihilate you from the face of the earth.

Jesus is THE GIFT OF GOD, GOD is GREATER THAN ANY OTHER BEING. He CHOSE a personal name Exodus 3:15 Then God said once more to Moses: “This is what you are to say to the Israelites, ‘Jehovah the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered from generation to generation.

Is this a True statement or is the Bible a book of lies? 

Christ prayed to His One Real Father as seen at John 17, he did not worship any other God or teach others to.

One Living Being is Worthy of our worship, One living being had the Power to create the material universe which Christ was as a helper. See Revelation 4:11 “You are worthy, Jehovah our God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, because you created all things, and because of your will they came into existence and were created.”

Are the facts true?

The entire Hebrew text speaks of One Almighty God who would send a Seed of His Angelic beings to crush Satan as foretold at Genesis 3:15. The same God punished people who did not worship Him Alone. The Israelites failed to obediently kill every inhabitant of the Land given them by God, this led them to worship Sacred Poles and images of Baal and other gods,even making their children pass through the fire to their death.They worshiped things like the sun,moon and stars. Jehovah punished them time and time again as generations passed and new were born who did not know God because their parents had left the way given by God.

Today generations have misled their children,many have taught them to worship false gods and saints and images and even Mary. The worship of Jesus as God is False Worship just like any other.  

The Greek verses show the fulfillment of many verses that Jesus could not manipulate to become the Seed. Jesus taught us who God is by his acts and speech. He never said "I am God" or I am the Creator, no he stated he is a lessor one, the son of man, the son of God. The name Jesus means "Jehovah is Salvation".

Jesus was the Seed sent to gather men of faith, they taught others and wrote pages describing the Christ they new. After they died, the pages were withheld by scrupulous men who exalted themselves over generations of men and women who had a zeal for god but not according to Accurate Information. They taught that they were the way to God and built a vast empire of falsehoods, you can still see the false worshipers in their various powers on Earth.They use many lessor ones to fulfill their fleshly hungers.

It is much easier for someone with no spiritual knowledge to grasp the truth, than those who have been poisoned by the spiritual falsehoods, profited from in the many books sold in the libraries and book stores of this world and preached by affable men and women in mega churches and television evangelizers, all do not know the truth but make themselves appear as experts!

If you pray to or worship Jesus, you are acting as a False worshiper according to the Bible, See John 4:23,24 WHO IS GOD LOOKING FOR?

The Entire Bible must Harmonize and must be held as the Highest authority on the matter!

 

 

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4 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

The Entire Bible must Harmonize and must be held as the Highest authority on the matter!

Most religions do not even understand that the purpose of Jehovah  is to restore the earth by means of the kingdom government under christ.  They do not study both the old and new testaments to see the continuity of the purpose and its administration thrroghout the millenia. Eph 1:9

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You must think I believe in the trinity.  I don't.  John 14:28; 5:19

6 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

Jesus is THE GIFT OF GOD, GOD is GREATER THAN ANY OTHER BEING.

Yes, God is greater than any other being.  Jesus was His firstborn creation, the Son of God, and it was through Jesus that God brought forth creation. 

 Prov 8:22:31

“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.”  Col 1:15-17

As the Logos, (John 1:1) he worked as one with God throughout time, and with the nation of Israel.  As an example:

"Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. "1 Cor 10:1-4

Jesus answered, “If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your God. 55 Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, ‘I do not know Him,’ I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”

57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”

58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to youbefore Abraham was, I AM.”  John 8:54-58

How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God? (John 5:41-44)

Do you see that God has bestowed honor on His Son?  What about glory?

And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.  John 17:5

And you believe God does not want us to give relative worship to His Son?  Are there any examples where Jesus told those who did worship him when on earth, to stop doing so? 

6 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

The Entire Bible must Harmonize and must be held as the Highest authority on the matter!

 

The GB, who have admitted that they do not receive inspiration from the Holy Spirit, have assumed that they can change scripture to reflect partiality to whom is to be worshiped -  scripture that is inspired by God.   This effort comes from the minds of men to push a doctrine.  They will be responsible for concocting the doctrine that Christ is not to receive any worship. 

Jesus is a God.  He is the Son of God.

For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.  Isa 9:6

6 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

If you pray to or worship Jesus, you are acting as a False worshiper according to the Bible, See John 4:23,24 WHO IS GOD LOOKING FOR?

God is looking for those who do not view any physical mountain as a place to worship – no “mountainlike organization”. That includes the earthly Watchtower and its images, built in the world influenced by Satan.   John 4:21-24   Zion is spiritual only, built with anointed “living stones”, the Spirit of God, and Christ as the chief cornerstone. 1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17; Eph 2:20-22

When you read Rev 5:11-14, please notice that only in this one case involving Christ, does the NWT leave the word, proskyneō, as “worship”, since God on His throne is also mentioned. When reading these scriptures, do you accept it as worship given to both God and the Lamb, or do you ignore Christ and only acknowledge worship is given to God here?  If so, you are practicing hypocrisy.  

Christ and the Father are our salvation, not an organization that suffers from the same corruption that exists in other organizations in the world.  To believe so, is idolatry. 

Watchtower 1990 11/1 p. 26 Our Relative Subjection to the Superior Authorities

"As Christians, we face up to similar challenges today. We cannot take part in any modern version of idolatry—be it worshipful gestures toward an image or symbol or the imputing of salvation to a person or an organization." 

That is a true statement that blows a hole in the validity of your organization.  But, damage control kicked in the same month.  A lie was generated, spoken from the other side of your leaders’ mouth:

Kingdom Ministry 11/1990 p. 1  Directing Bible Students to Jehovah’s Organization 

"Bible students need to get acquainted with the organization of the “one flock” Jesus spoke about at 

    Hello guest!
. They must appreciate that identifying themselves with Jehovah’s organization is essential to their salvation.”

The faithful anointed are ambassadors for Christ. 2 Cor 5:20 They are God’s “witnesses” in truth – the truth they receive from Christ by Holy Spirit. Matt 7:7; Isa 43:10; 1 Pet 2:9,10 They become “one” with Christ in his Body. 1 Cor 12:12; 10:17  Just as Paul spoke with Christ once he was in heaven, so do they. 2 Cor 12:8,9  Christ is there for all of us, to approach in prayer.  It is through Christ, that we come to know the Father.

You said, "We come to Christ through imitation of him, not by prayer to him."

You would not apply that theory when it comes to God, would you.

Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.  John 14:6

 

 

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2 hours ago, Arauna said:

Most religions do not even understand that the purpose of Jehovah  is to restore the earth by means of the kingdom government under christ.

How many died during the Flood, how many were saved by their faith and works? Did less than 1% survive? Why is that? Noah preached about God for 40 years prior to the first drops of rain. He invited many to join him on the Ark. Yet the plans and size of the Ark did not include space for millions of people,not even thousands or hundreds, Jehovah foresaw the answer the people would have toward Noah's preaching. In all their posturing and outward appearances, the human race is imperfect and drawn to badness, rather than obedience to God. Jehovah in His Infinite Wisdom has set the boundaries of mankind, even for those who understand, obedience can be a challenge while living in this wicked world.

Jehovah will exam the inner person of every adult and execute judgment in the near future. Is there hope for those who have never heard the Good News based on God's finding? There is no scripture stating yes or no, only our knowledge that Jehovah is Just. Those conscious of their Spiritual Need can improve their standing through study and prayer and obedience today, for Jehovah is searching the Earth for them today! He has Assured us that A Great Crowd,which no man was able to number will survive out of all the nations of Earth.

Rev.7:9 After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands.

Even if you have a Spiritual background, it is wise to consider John 4:23,24 and examine why you believe what you do? Who today are being used by God to preach the Good News of God's Kingdom in all the inhabited Earth? Are you one of them?

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19 minutes ago, Witness said:

Christ and the Father are our salvation, not an organization that suffers from the same corruption that exists in other organizations in the world.  To believe so, is idolatry. 

Jesus is the Gift of God, elevated by God to His right hand, but not as God's Equal.

Jesus was GIVEN Immortality by the One Almighty God who has authority over immortality.

Even in Heaven God gave Jesus a revelation of our future at Revelation 1:1.

In Heaven Jehovah is Almighty, foreseeing the future events then telling them to others!

Jehovah will always be the ALMIGHTY GOD, no one will ever be equal to Him!

Satan has counterfeited the worship of God many times, their are falsehoods that are revealing signs that tell a person that this is not the "True Religion"

Do the patrons * worship Jehovah as God?

Do they honor * Jesus as His Firstborn Son?

Do the respect the * Holy Spirit as an Invisible Force originating from Jehovah God?

Do they * Obey God First then human rulers?

Do they believe in a * burning hell where God punishes the wicked eternally?

Do they * use images to worship?

Do they believe in * the Holy Trinity?

Do they use * paid priests and a clergy?

To find the Bibles answers to all these please copy them from the * into the search bar at

    Hello guest!

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2 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

size of the Ark did not include space for millions of people,not even thousands or hundreds, Jehovah foresaw the answer the people would have toward Noah's preaching. In all their posturing and outward appearances, the human race is imperfect and drawn to badness, rather than obedience to God. Jehovah in His Infinite Wisdom has set the boundaries of mankind, even for those who understand, obedience can be a challenge while living in this wicked world.

True, Jehovah causes to become ..... but he works with imperfect people where there is a spirit of cooperation and obedience. 

2 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

Who today are being used by God to preach the Good News of God's Kingdom in all the inhabited Earth? Are you one of them?

Good question because this is the assignment given to his obedient disciples during the perousia Matt 24:14. 

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21 hours ago, Witness said:

Jesus is a God.  He is the Son of God

Jesus is a god according to John 1:1 a lessor god, meaning he is a mighty one, as many men consider themselves a god.

21 hours ago, Witness said:

You said, "We come to Christ through imitation of him, not by prayer to him."

You would not apply that theory when it comes to God, would you.

The Hebrew scripture teach all to pray to Jehovah Only, You stand as an opposer of God Himself, in line with many other opposers. Jehovah is One Being, He Inspired men to write the Bible. Is He now changing His Mind according to your preference? No, You have not harmonized the verses properly. Jesus is much like the attorney for mankind, giving us access to The Holy God we did not have without him.

Jehovah is Holy and cast Adam and Eve from Eden, He never spoke with them again. The Flaming Swords prevented any return or communication with God. Jesus is our access to to God but he is not the Almighty God we are told to worship ONLY.

Is Jesus any different from the angels of Revelation, preserving reverence for Jehovah.

 

21 hours ago, Witness said:

You said, "We come to Christ through imitation of him, not by prayer to him."

You would not apply that theory when it comes to God, would you.

Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 

What do you propose is the RELIGION that most closely resembles the Way that Jesus and the Apostles worshiped?

21 hours ago, Witness said:

You said, "We come to Christ through imitation of him, not by prayer to him."

You would not apply that theory when it comes to God, would you.

Jesus taught people to pray at Mtt 6:9-15

9 “You must pray, then, this way: “‘Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified. 10 Let your Kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also on earth................................................

If Jesus knew he was the one to pray to after his death, WHY did he not teach them to pray "Our Great Son in Heaven, let your name be sanctified?"

The opposers of God Himself would teach men to worship the Son instead of the Father!!!

They would rewrite the Bible changing it's meaning, knowing the warning God gives to those who would do such.

Jesus is Never called the ALMIGHTY GOD,

Worship the One the Bible Calls the Almighty God Jehovah.

The Simplicity of the Bible states God as the Father and Jesus as the son.

God felt men would understand the Headship the Father has over the son. This is why He used Human terms.

The True Worshipers, Worship the Father in Spirit and Truth.

The False Worshipers, worship the son in all manner of Falsehoods

John 4:23 Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him.  

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23 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

Satan has counterfeited the worship of God many times, their are falsehoods that are revealing signs that tell a person that this is not the "True Religion"

I really think you need to take a step back in time and analyze your organization’s beliefs.

Firstly, no one has been given the authority to change scripture as your leaders have done with the Bible. Do you agree?  If anyone twists its meaning as the WT has concerning the word for “worship”, we have every right to reject those who do so:

“They worship me in vain;
    their teachings are merely human rules.’

Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”  Matt 7:7,13

Yes they have and do “many things like that”.  2 Tim 2:16

On 12/25/2019 at 12:26 PM, the Sower of Seed said:

If you pray to or worship Jesus, you are acting as a False worshiper according to the Bible

 

3 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

The Hebrew scripture teach all to pray to Jehovah Only, You stand as an opposer of God Himself, in line with many other opposers.

Secondly, revisit the earlier WT teachings:

“Although we are nowhere instructed to make petitions to him, it evidently could not be improper to do so; for such a course is nowhere prohibitedand the disciples worshiped him” (Zion’s Watch Tower, 1892).

Do you see that?  Nowhere in the Bible does it say we cannot worship Christ. 

“Yes, we believe our Lord Jesus while on earth was really worshiped, and properly so (Zion’s Watch Tower, 1898).

 “For this reason God has highly exalted him and given him a name above every name and commands that all creatures in heaven shall worship the Son as he worships the Father. Phil 2:5-11” (WT August 15,1941, p. 252)

Whosoever should worship Him must also worship and bow down to Jehovah’s Chief One in that capital organization, namely, Christ Jesus…” (The Watchtower, 1945, p. 313).

Do you consider all JWs from that time period, as “false worshipers”?  Were they “opposers of God Himself” as you say I am?  How do you reckon with just this one of many changed teachings of your organization?  

A “true religion” is know by its “fruits” – its teachings.  The WT’s teachings have never been sound, they have never been reliable.  Jesus who provides Spirit to those anointed who “remain in him”, teach consistent truth.  If they don’t, they are “bad trees”, ready to be cut down and thrown in the fire.  Matt 7:15-20; 3:10; John 15:4-6

 "Therefore, since through God’s mercy we have this ministry, we do not lose heart. Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful wayswe do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of GodFor what we preach is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of God’s glory displayed in the face of Christ.  1 Cor 4:1-6 

You don’t see God’s glorious light reflected in the face of Christ, because your leaders, who have no spiritual conscience, have snuffed it out.  I am truly sorry. 

 

“Glory”, Pearl Doxsey 4womaninthewilderness blogspot

 

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45 minutes ago, Witness said:

Secondly, revisit the earlier WT teachings:

Here are a few more for you:

“Jehovah God commands all to worship Christ Jesus because Christ Jesus is the express image of his Father, Jehovah, and because he is the Executive Officer of Jehovah always carrying out Jehovah’s purpose (Heb.:3-6).” WT 1939/11/15, p. 339

“During the Millennium, “the princes will lead the people in their worship of Jehovah and of Christ.” Vindication Volume 3 (J. F. Rutherford, 1932) p.295

“The people of all nations who obtain salvation must come to the house of the Lord to worship there; that is to say, they must believe on and worship Jehovah God and the Lord Jesus Christ, his chief instrument (Philippians 2:10, 11).”Salvation (J. F. Rutherford, 1939) p.151

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10 hours ago, Witness said:

Do you see that?  Nowhere in the Bible does it say we cannot worship Christ.

Jesus is FIRST and FOREMOST One of JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES.

You still cannot see the Heavens. JEHOVAH sets as the Almighty, Greater than all the stars of the universe joined as one

Jesus is as our sun.

There is one Divine Family, Jehovah the Father and countless sons, Jesus is the firstborn among millions of sons.

You are commanded to Worship the One Almighty God at Exodus 20:3 You must not have any other gods besides me. THIS MEANS DO NOT WORSHIP JESUS OR ANYONE ELSE!

You Hail Christ as a god in opposition to Jehovah

5 You must not bow down to them nor be enticed to serve them, for I, Jehovah your God, am a God who requires exclusive devotion, bringing punishment for the error of fathers upon sons, upon the third generation and upon the fourth generation of those who hate me, 

You have disobeyed the First Commandment and Exhort others to follow you as a False Worshiper

You twist the scriptures and complain about the organization doing God's Expressed Will.

The Eternal Torment will come as a Hailstone, then it will be too late to open your eyes and repent. The Revealed Truth will Torment You, you will not be able to justify it, you will not be able to escape it, though you try, you will not be able to hide from it, Torment will consume the False Worshipers until their end! 

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44 minutes ago, the Sower of Seed said:

You have disobeyed the First Commandment and Exhort others to follow you as a False Worshiper

 

45 minutes ago, the Sower of Seed said:

The Eternal Torment will come as a Hailstone, then it will be too late to open your eyes and repent.

Well sir, you have just condemned millions of your past brethren.  It is confusing, isn’t it.  It can cause us to see red.  Satan easily takes truth and spins it into a lie, just as easily as he takes a lie and builds on it; giving it many different faces. 

46 minutes ago, the Sower of Seed said:

You must not bow down to them nor be enticed to serve them, for I, Jehovah your God, am a God who requires exclusive devotion, bringing punishment for the error of fathers upon sons, upon the third generation and upon the fourth generation of those who hate me, 

“No one that I knew about even questioned the appointment of Brother Knorr,” says C. W. Barber, “and everyone was determined to stand shoulder to shoulder supporting him and proving our devotion to Jehovah’s organization."  yb75 pp. 183-256

This is one reason why I left the organization.  I had fallen into idolatry.  I now give exclusive devotion to the Father in heaven and not to an earthly organization. Isaiah 46:5  I do not attach any earthly entity to my God. I do not bow down to men and their false doctrine. I obey the teachings of, and am devoted to, my King, Jesus Christ who is the "husband" of his Bride.  2 Cor 11:2; Rev 19:16; Rev 22:17

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5 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

Jesus is FIRST and FOREMOST One of JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES.

You still cannot see the Heavens. JEHOVAH sets as the Almighty, Greater than all the stars of the universe joined as one

Jesus is as our sun.

There is one Divine Family, Jehovah the Father and countless sons, Jesus is the firstborn among millions of sons.

You are commanded to Worship the One Almighty God at Exodus 20:3 You must not have any other gods besides me. THIS MEANS DO NOT WORSHIP JESUS OR ANYONE ELSE!

You Hail Christ as a god in opposition to Jehovah

5 You must not bow down to them nor be enticed to serve them, for I, Jehovah your God, am a God who requires exclusive devotion, bringing punishment for the error of fathers upon sons, upon the third generation and upon the fourth generation of those who hate me, 

You have disobeyed the First Commandment and Exhort others to follow you as a False Worshiper

You twist the scriptures and complain about the organization doing God's Expressed Will.

The Eternal Torment will come as a Hailstone, then it will be too late to open your eyes and repent. The Revealed Truth will Torment You, you will not be able to justify it, you will not be able to escape it, though you try, you will not be able to hide from it, Torment will consume the False Worshipers until their end! 

So Jesus is a JW also, so you expect he needs to go through  the watchtower for salvation, and worship the g.b.as he would worship Jehovah?

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5 hours ago, Matthew9969 said:

So Jesus is a JW also, so you expect he needs to go through  the watchtower for salvation, and worship the g.b.as he would worship Jehovah?

Jesus spent 3-1/2 years teaching men about Jehovah's attributes.

Mtt.3:17 Look! Also, a voice from the heavens said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.”

4:4 But he answered: “It is written: ‘Man must live, not on bread alone, but on every word that comes from Jehovah’s mouth.’”

4:7 Jesus said to him: “Again it is written: ‘You must not put Jehovah your God to the test.’”

4:10 Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written: ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’” 

20:23 He said to them: “You will indeed drink my cup, but to sit down at my right hand and at my left is not mine to give, but it belongs to those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”

Mark 12:28 One of the scribes who had come up and heard them disputing, knowing that he had answered them in a fine way, asked him: “Which commandment is first of all?”29 Jesus answered: “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah,30 and you must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind and with your whole strength.’31 The second is this, ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”32 The scribe said to him: “Teacher, you spoke well, in line with truth, ‘He is One, and there is no other besides him’;33 and to love him with one’s whole heart, with one’s whole understanding, and with one’s whole strength and to love one’s neighbor as oneself is worth far more than all the whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.”

Yes, Jesus directed all worship to Jehovah, to Him Alone. He taught us how important it is To Love Jehovah and Love our Neighbors. 

Jehovah's Witnesses praise Jesus for the Witness he gave and the pattern he set for all the True Worshipers to follow. We give our time, energies and possessions in imitation of him. We Love him for all he gave that we might have access to God in prayer. We honor him because he stayed faithful before the many mockers and those who abused him until his death. We hope to Worship Jehovah as perfectly as Jesus did then & does today! PraiseJah!

 

 

 

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17 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

Jesus spent 3-1/2 years teaching men about Jehovah's attributes.

Mtt.3:17 Look! Also, a voice from the heavens said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.”

What else did God say?

A voice came from the cloud, saying, "This is my Son, whom I have chosen; listen to him."  Luke 9:35

17 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

4:4 But he answered: “It is written: ‘Man must live, not on bread alone, but on every word that comes from Jehovah’s mouth.’”

33 For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”

34 “Sir,” they said, “always give us this bread.”

35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 

Each wrong, failed teaching by the WT's leaders, and there is an extensive list of them, is indication of spiritual famine. Jesus does not teach error and would not tolerate it among those who claim to be under his guidance. Amos 8:11; Matt 7:7-11 We are to discern this among the anointed ones.  Matt 7:15-20

36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of Him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of Him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those He has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”  John 6:33-40

17 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

4:7 Jesus said to him: “Again it is written: ‘You must not put Jehovah your God to the test.’”

4:10 Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written: ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’” 

 

Yes, Jesus does worship the Father.  Satan does not. Satan’s challenge made to Jesus had one underlying intention, to see him fall from God’s glory. 

Any organized religion that boasts of its accomplishments; its buildings, its uninspired leaders who teach their sheep to be proud of what they have built in the world of Satan, does not worship the Father.

The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. And he said to him, “I will give you all their authority and splendor; it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. If you worship me, it will all be yours.”  Luke 4:5,6

 The “preaching work” in the last days before Christ returns, is directed by Christ and Holy Spirit – to God’s “Israel”, (Matt 10:23)  who admire and worship a “Beast” organization directed by a “false prophet”. Rev 11:1-3; Matt 24:24; Rev 13:1,2,11,15  Christ has sent his servants who have been disfellowshipped/”killed” by your organization to “sound the trumpet” to his people, to turn to their Head, Jesus Christ – buying “gold”, TRUTH,  from him. Joel 2:1; Rev 3:18; Rev 18:4-8

Or, they too, will fall from God’s glory.  James 1:12  Satan demands to “sift” each anointed one as “wheat” (Luke 22:31); in fact all in the WT face his powerful deception and must make a choice to either serve God through His Son, or serve men and their organization.  2 Thess 2:9-12  In the last days, he has devised a scheme that appears to be sanctioned by God and Christ, when in reality it diverts away from pure worship to be given to the true God and His Son.

 “All this I have told you so that you will not fall away. They will put you out of the synagogue; (“congregation”) in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God. They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me.”  John 16:2

JWs do not “render sacred service to God alone”, since they render as captive slaves, service to the organization; material pursuits of men.  Matt 6:24; Col 2:8; Rev 13:10

Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves.  John 14:8-11

WT 74/7/1 p. 407 “Are you willing to accept Jehovah’s way for salvation? In this twentieth century we have an example of humility, of lowliness of mind, that is found world wide. It is in the organization of Jehovah’s witnesses.”

No it is not.

“Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.”  John 10:7-10

Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the lifeNo one comes to the Father except through meIf you really know me, you will know my Father as well.”  John 14:6,7a

 

 

 

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On 12/28/2019 at 11:52 AM, Witness said:

35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 

Each wrong, failed teaching by the WT's leaders, and there is an extensive list of them, is indication of spiritual famine

           Jehovah's Witnesses HONOR Jesus Christ more than any other religion!

Their IMITATION of his principles and their preaching the Kingdom message is the HIGHEST FORM of HONOR.

WE Come to Jesus in searching his ways out and the truths he taught more than any other religion.

We do not pray to him, rather we pray to God in the merit of Jesus name and the life atoning blood he gave.

We Understand that Jehovah is the Father, the Creator of every son / spirit / life.

This is why Jesus prayed to his Father and God.

See Revelation 4:11. Every angel in Heaven honors this fact.

Your worries about the GB and the WT do not lessen your obligation to worship Jehovah.

Moses made some mistakes, that did not give the entire assembly the right to complain about the way God was directing them. Accepting the Headship arrangement is what Jesus taught, when he said he did not have the authority to appoint who would sits at his left or right as kings of God's Kingdom.

For the next 1000 years, after Armageddon, the headship will most likely be:

In Heaven:

Jehovah

Jesus

the 144,000

ON EARTH:

a governing body

the congregation 

the other sheep 

 

 

 

On 12/28/2019 at 11:52 AM, Witness said:

JWs do not “render sacred service to God alone”, since they render as captive slaves, service to the organization; material pursuits of men.  Matt 6:24; Col 2:8; Rev 13:10

Witnesses do not preach the organization you are consumed with. They preach the Good News of God's Kingdom as God's Slaves. They follow the teaching of Christ who appointed 12 Apostles over his congregations.Were the disciples then slaves of the Apostles?

The organization led by a "body of men" is much more intelligent than being led by one man, Moses' father-in-law helped Moses to understand this.

Matthew 18:20 testifies to the wisdom of many praying together.

1 Cor.14:33 For God is a God not of disorder but of peace. As in all the congregations of the holy ones, 

ORDER brings PEACE which brings praise to God and enables the free flow of God's Spirit.

 

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3 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

The organization led by a "body of men" is much more intelligent than being led by one man, Moses' father-in-law helped Moses to understand this.

This is all I will comment on.  Human intelligence, which can include “the wisdom of the world” does not bring us to the Kingdom; and we can’t say the GB are moved spiritually, because they have admitted they are not. 1 Cor 2:12-14   MOSES had direct contact with God. Num 12:6-8 How can you even GO THERE and make the comparison of eight blundering men covering over their mistakes by blaming them on Christ…to MOSES? Josh 1:7 Just to do so, shows you have replaced Christ, whom Moses spoke of his coming, and that we should listen to …with a “body of men” - lacking Holy Spirit - to lead you.   

If the organization is "led by a body of men" who are " much more intelligent than being led by one man,” why isn’t there a prophesy in the Bible, directing one to your leaders?

Please read:

 “The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him16 This is what you requested from the Lord your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, ‘Let us not continue to hear the voice of the Lord our God or see this great fire any longer, so that we will not die!’ 17 Then the Lord said to me, ‘They have spoken well. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. I will put My words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. 

19 I will hold accountable whoever does not listen to My words that he speaks in My name.

 20 But the prophet who dares to speak a message in My name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods—that prophet must die.’

 21 You may say to yourself, ‘How can we recognize a message the Lord has not spoken?’ 22 When a prophet speaks in the Lord’s name, and the message does not come true or is not fulfilled, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.  Deut 18:15-22

Do you understand what this is saying? Your leaders will be held accountable for every failed, wrong teaching they have taught as “truth”.  Every one of them; such as all the dates for Armageddon, “this generation” and its changes, 1914 and 1975.  Check the misnomer, “Beliefs Clarified”.  Jer 23:16

And there are many you still believe are “truth” when indeed, they are lies.

As someone said in a video about religion, “God the Creator equals truth, and the truth is always true. You don’t get to pick and choose truth.“

 

 

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3 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

Your worries about the GB and the WT do not lessen your obligation to worship Jehovah.

One more thing.  I thoroughly worship YHWH, much easier than under the thumb of false teachings and men who spread them.  

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On 12/26/2019 at 4:38 PM, the Sower of Seed said:

Jesus is a god according to John 1:1 a lessor god, meaning he is a mighty one, as many men consider themselves a god.

You state this right after you quote Exodus 20? Which is it? Do jw's have more then one God or not? 

 

On 12/25/2019 at 8:22 AM, the Sower of Seed said:

Exodus 20: You must not have any other gods besides me. 4 “You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or on the earth below or in the waters under the earth.

Seems pretty simple according to Exodus, there IS NO OTHER gods. Not a lessor or small g or ANY other God. 

 

Please explain how jws can have another "little g" god and not be in violation of Exodus 20? 

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3 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

You state this right after you quote Exodus 20? Which is it? Do jw's have more then one God or not? 

Jehovah's Witnesses worship the One Almighty God Jehovah. 

According to the Bible there are other gods, written with a small "g" denoting lessor than the Almighty. See 2 Corinthians 4:4 and John 1:1

 

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6 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

Which is it? Do jw's have more then one God or not? 

"He will speak for you to the people, and he will be your spokesman, and you will serve as God to him"    (you will be representing God to him".)

This quote is from exodus 4 :16 where Moses will be a" God" to Aaron.    This does not mean Moses must be worshipped but he will represent God to Aaron and will in this capacity have higher position than Aaron when representing the people when going before pharoah.

In ancient times the word "god"  was often used for  the Ceasar.   Jesus is therefore also called "a God" in several places. Also in hebrews 1:9  "

You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your companions.”

 

 

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15 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

Jehovah's Witnesses worship the One Almighty God Jehovah. 

According to the Bible there are other gods, written with a small "g" denoting lessor than the Almighty. See 2 Corinthians 4:4 and John 1:1

 

so again, do you have more then one God? 

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In short, there are those who strive to seek truth and wanting to learn the truth about God, of his Christ, and of the Kingdom, the right and pure way, and all are welcome into this fold. Such ones vary, different race, sex, backgrounds, etc all with the common goal when it comes to being united into the faith by worshiping God, and accepting the teachings of his only-begotten of whom he sent and made Christ - Jesus.

On the other side of the spectrum,

There are those out there who think they have all that is known about God and Jesus, but ascribe to creeds and other things that do not pertain to the true church. Not only that, there are those who shift God's Word to fit their own narrative by means of their feelings and opinion over Scriptural Insight and understanding, as with some, they attest to merging God and his Word with things that pertain to falsehood, paganism, and other things that are not even remotely close.

Better for a man to continue seeking everywhere he is vs. a man who accepts something that is not of the Church of the Christ.

 

That being said, there is strong tension concerning Christendom the past couple of weeks. Mainstream is to blame due to it's openness professing that enabled things which will result in coming and unforeseen consequences.

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On 12/31/2019 at 11:30 AM, Shiwiii said:

so again, do you have more then one God? 

In Harmony with John 4:23,24, as a True worshiper, exposing the falsehoods of the many on the broad and spacious road described at Matthew 7:13,14 including the Catholic Church,the Baptists,the Mormons,the Presbyterians, etc..., and all apostates complaining about God and His worship and moral code.

I worship one Almighty God (YHWH, JHWH, Jehovah) and recognize lessor gods like Jesus. Isaiah 9:6, John 1:1,2 Corinthians 4:4

In Harmony with every binding inspired scripture: I worship the Sovereign Lord Jehovah. See Isaiah 61:1, Psalms 73:28, Isaiah 65:13,Amos 3:7, Exodus 20:1-17. He is the ONLY Almighty God. His is the Creator, the origin of the thought and power that caused the universe to come into existence.

Isaiah 61:1 The spirit of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah is upon me,Because Jehovah anointed me to declare good news to the meek. He sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,To proclaim liberty to the captives.And the wide opening of the eyes to the prisoners, 

Isaiah 25:8 He will swallow up death forever,And the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will wipe away the tears from all faces. The reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth,For Jehovah himself has spoken it. 

Isaiah 65:13 Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says:“Look! My servants will eat, but you will go hungry.Look! My servants will drink, but you will go thirsty.Look! My servants will rejoice, but you will suffer shame.

Ezekiel 21:26 This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: ‘Remove the turban, and take off the crown. This will not remain the same. Raise up the low one, and bring low the high one.

Jeremiah 1:6 But I said: “Alas, O Sovereign Lord Jehovah! I do not know how to speak, for I am just a boy.”

I honor Jesus Christ as the 1st spirit / angel created by the Almighty Jehovah, as Jehovah's Son and Appointed King of the Kingdom of God, an administration of God's sovereignty to deal with sinful men and angels.

I recognize the Holy Spirit as an invisible force that originates only from the Almighty God Jehovah.

    Hello guest!
, as an organization born from the Bible verse at Matthew 24:45. This organization is honest enough to keep applying newly understood Bible truths, they do not believe or force the congregation to worship according doctrines created by foolish men hundreds of years ago, like the Trinity, Hellfire, etc.

Jehovah's Witnesses are the ONLY organization orderly & systematically doing the Expressed Will of God, teaching what the Kingdom is as expressed at:

Matthew 24:14 And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Mark 13:10 Also, in all the nations, the good news has to be preached first.

They Obey the Command of Jesus Christ expressed in the moments before his ascension to Heaven to his disciples gathered there.

Matthew 28:19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

Please visit

    Hello guest!

 

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2 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

recognize lessor gods like Jesus. Isaiah 9:6, John 1:1,2 Corinthians 4:4

Can you please point out where in this passage it says "lessor" or inferior to, and what the words "Eternal Father" means:

For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

 

 

How do you reconcile the belief in other, "lessor" gods if God Himself stated in Isiah 43:10 states that none were formed before Him and none after? If you are using the word god flippantly then all of us are gods just like the Mormon's believe. That then, puts you and Jesus on the same level. I highly doubt you think that, but maybe......? 

 “You are My witnesses,” declares the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.

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6 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

This verse foretells Jesus, who would become the father of mankind as he repurchases them with his perfect life blood, however 

 after his resurrection by Jehovah. Jesus, the LESSOR was given IMMORTALITY by his GREATER Father, Jehovah. AFTERWARDS JESUS COULD TRULY BE CALLED ETERNAL FATHER.

There can ONLY be ONE "ALMIGHTY" GOD. Do You Agree YOU CAN'T BY MIGHTIER THAN ALMIGHTY? Any other god must be a lessor god.

There can ONLY BE ONE "SOVEREIGN LORD". Do You Agree? 

Sovereign = a supreme ruler, especially a monarch, supreme= no one higher

 

JESUS IS NOT CALLED THE ALMIGHTY GOD ANYWHERE IN THE BIBLE.           

JESUS IS NOT CALLED THE SOVEREIGN LORD ANYWHERE IN THE BIBLE.

                    

Satan has influenced men to worship Jesus as GOD.The truth exposes this as erroneous, as False Worship

 

Isaiah 61:1 The spirit of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah is upon me,Because Jehovah anointed me to declare good news to the meek. He sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,To proclaim liberty to the captives.And the wide opening of the eyes to the prisoners, 

Isaiah 25:8 He will swallow up death forever,And the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will wipe away the tears from all faces. The reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth,For Jehovah himself has spoken it. 

Isaiah 65:13 Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says:“Look! My servants will eat, but you will go hungry.Look! My servants will drink, but you will go thirsty.Look! My servants will rejoice, but you will suffer shame.

Ezekiel 21:26 This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: ‘Remove the turban, and take off the crown. This will not remain the same. Raise up the low one, and bring low the high one.

Jeremiah 1:6 But I said: “Alas, O Sovereign Lord Jehovah! I do not know how to speak, for I am just a boy.”

Revelation 11:17 saying: “We thank you, Jehovah God, the Almighty, the one who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and begun ruling as king. 

Revelation 15:3 They were singing the song of Moses the slave of God and the song of the Lamb, saying: “Great and wonderful are your works, Jehovah God, the Almighty. Righteous and true are your ways, King of eternity. 

Exodus 6:3 They were singing the song of Moses the slave of God and the song of the Lamb, saying: “Great and wonderful are your works, Jehovah God, the Almighty. Righteous and true are your ways, King of eternity. 

Revelation 19:6 And I heard what sounded like a voice of a great crowd and like the sound of many waters and like the sound of heavy thunders. They said: “Praise Jah, because Jehovah our God, the Almighty, has begun to rule as king! 

Revelation 1:8 “I am the Alʹpha and the O·meʹga,” says Jehovah God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.”

Revelation 16:7 And I heard the altar say: “Yes, Jehovah God, the Almighty, true and righteous are your judgments.”

Matthew 6:9 “You must pray, then, this way: “‘Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified.  Jesus here teaches us to pray for his God's Name be cleansed of all reproach, Set Apart as Holy , above every other name. 

Deuteronomy 6:5 You must love Jehovah your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your strength.    

 

Do You Agree with the Bible?

A person must be willing to let go of false beliefs in order to become a True Worshiper. It is unscriptural to pray to Jesus or worship him.

John 4:23,24

God is LOOKING for people who will worship HIM (the ALMIGHTY SOVEREIGN LORD GOD JEHOVAH) not for those who worship Jesus!

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

A person must be willing to let go of false beliefs in order to become a True Worshiper.

Thanks for saying this. 

Jesus was the first to obtain immortality and incorruptability from Jehovah as a reward for remaining faithful to him until death. Jesus was like the other angels before he came to earth.  His everlasting life depended on him staying loyal to God.   Read Hebrews 1 in its entirety.

Satan was an angel (like jesus) and became disobedient..... he will be destroyed.  

The lie was told by Satan to Adam when he said: you will not die.  People still believe this lie. They believe that humans have a soul that goes out and it is immortal.......ecclesiastes 9: 5& 10.  Eccl 3: 19 & 20 shows that the soul knows nothing and humans die like an animal. They do not have an immortal soul. Adam would have lived forever while he obeyed God.

The bible clearly shows that the soul dies at death.  We will be recreated at time of resurrection. SO WHAT has this to do with Jesus?  Prophecy indicates in Isaiah 53 : last verses that Jesus will put his "soul" in death to pay for our souls as randsom.  Eze 18:4  says: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.   So our souls die and Jesus put his souls willingly in death to save us.

Abraham offered up his son..... this was a prophecy of what jehovah would do for us. Isaac could have pushed his father away but he willingly allowed his father to sacrifice him because he believed God could resurrect him - give him life again like when He opened his old mothers womb to give birth to him.  God was kind to Abraham because he substituted isaac with an animal but had to go the whole way with Jesus. Jesus willingly came to earth and knew beforehand  that he would go into non-existence for three days.  This is the example of obedience to death.  For dying unjustly while being perfect, jehovah granted him immortality and incorruptability.

Jesus really died - his soul died. Churches who teach that Jesus is God do not really understand the randsom sacrifice. They talk about the blood of jesus but do not understand the depth of the sacrifice of Jesus.   They do not really believe that he died.  If you are immortal - you cannot die.

 

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On 1/3/2020 at 11:07 AM, Shiwiii said:

How do you reconcile the belief in other, "lessor" gods if God Himself stated in Isiah 43:10 states that none were formed before Him and none after?

43:10 “You are my witnesses,” declares Jehovah,“Yes, my servant whom I have chosen,So that you may know and have faith in me. And understand that I am the same One. Before me no God was formed, And after me there has been none. 

No God has ever formed by some natural process other than the one who has chosen the name Jehovah.

Jehovah is the Greatest Spiritual Being. Jehovah states His thinking is much higher than mans.

Jehovah Did Not Create Another God Equal to Himself, instead He created lessor spirit beings who He could enjoy some type of relationship with.

However there were some who had a grievance against His perfect moral standard for the angels and have suggested to mankind there is a better life than Jehovah will allow.

After men were created, they imagined different gods with various powers. They incorporated them into their language. Today we have 2 words that are spelled the same, but have a different meaning according to the capitalization of the first g. GOD or God points to the Almighty God Jehovah, the Larger "G" gives reference to His Great Power, whereas the smaller "g" gives reference to a lessor one,a god can describe any "mighty one". Jesus is foretold to become a mighty god, not a mighty GOD. Pharaohs of Egypt were considered as gods. Many rulers try to be seen as such.

Does this knew word in the universe of mankind now make GOD a liar?  No, examine the "g" in Isaiah 43:10.

relate to this analogy:

Lets say the you start an ant farm. It begins modestly but in time the ants outgrow their little container. They now build a large mound. Among them is an ant that is revered as greater than the others. Do you really care whether they call it a god or not? Does their doing so in their little mound of the universe now make God a liar? Since the ants don't have reverence toward the Almighty, their vocabulary has little importance.

For those who want to have the greatest proper reverence toward God it does matter to them and God.

A mainstay of Faith is Trusting with All Your Heart that Jehovah Cannot Lie to us or any other creation.

On 1/3/2020 at 11:07 AM, Shiwiii said:

If you are using the word god flippantly then all of us are gods just like the Mormon's believe.

This is not the design of Jehovah's Witnesses, in fact the 1611 King James Bible replaced the tetragrammaton YHWH with GOD and when it was YHWH being called lord they used LORD, when it was Jesus being called lord they used Lord, recognizing that Jesus is a "lessor" lord.

Jehovah's Witnesses have seen the truth of 2 Corinthians 4:4 and John 1:1 by understanding this. 

Like Satan and those that joined him, many complain about Jehovah God and the organization He has been using to do His Expressed will. However this organization loves the truth and continues to root out falsehoods that are hated by God and His slaves.

Who will God accept to receive His blessings, an organization with a set of principles that reflect Jehovah's moral standards or individuals with differing standards, beliefs and perceptions of what and who He is?

Could the latter uniformly and acceptably preach the Good News in all the inhabited Earth? No

Are the latter sanctifying and praising His chosen name in all the inhabited Earth? No

The True Worshipers would all uniformly believe the Truth about Jehovah, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, the Kingdom and eternity because of having a global brotherhood that all receive the same spiritual training. Jehovah, in His Infinite Power and Wisdom would continually bring to attention the more important things to Him while they are growing in spirituality, complainers limit His ability to do so. Today, Jehovah is making His will known to an organization in an orderly way. The false worshipers will complain about Jehovah and His people because of His moral standards and his people striving to practice them. Jehovah has foretold the day when He will silence them. Until then we must endure their influence as fighters against God, for as He told Samuel, "it is Me they have rejected".

God is searching for True Worshipers.

 

 

 

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On 1/3/2020 at 5:13 PM, the Sower of Seed said:

This verse foretells Jesus, who would become the father of mankind as he repurchases them with his perfect life blood, however 

I'm not going to quote all of your regurgitated wt propaganda, but this first statement I believe is yours so I'll go there. 

Are you suggesting that eternal has a beginning?  I mean if Jesus is the Eternal Father as stated in Isiah 9, which was written before He came to Earth, and you say that he became eternal; when was this beginning? 

 

 

On 1/4/2020 at 4:59 PM, the Sower of Seed said:

Before me no God was formed, And after me there has been none. 

this scripture tells the story. There is no god other then Himself. What is called god or gods are NOT. There is only one. no lessor or demigods or the like. Just like money or power or whatever people choose to worship, it is a symbolic "god" to them, but there is no other god. 

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7 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

Are you suggesting that eternal has a beginning?  I mean if Jesus is the Eternal Father as stated in Isiah 9, which was written before He came to Earth, and you say that he became eternal; when was this beginning? 

Isaiah 9:6 is a prophesy foretelling Jesus

 6 For a child has been born to us, A son has been given to us; And the rulership will rest on his shoulder. His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

Jesus did not become an Eternal Father until after his unjust death as a Perfect Man as a corresponding atonement for Adams Perfect Life Blood.

Yes, Jesus had a beginning according to Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation

The True worshipers Understand the Father Jehovah GOD had no beginning, whereas the Son is a creation of the Father (just like on Earth, fathers become such after the birth of a son or daughter) Michael / Jesus had a beginning. 

Revelation 3:14“To the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ceʹa write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God.

7 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

There is no god other then Himself. What is called god or gods are NOT. There is only one. no lessor or demigods or the like.

You disagree with the inspired word of GOD? You claim Satan is not a god,however 2 Corinthians 4:4 states he is.

John 1:1 speaks of 2 gods.  1=GOD who the Word was with & 1 god who the Word was.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god

Michael was there in the beginning (the beginning of his helping GOD create all other things)

The Word/Jesus/Michael was with Jehovah GOD and Word/Jesus/Michael was a god.

Every true worshiper must put away false doctrines created by UN-inspired apostate church leaders of the past. By praying to the Only Hearer of Prayer Jehovah for a better understanding of His Bible many come to a knowledge of the Truth. 

 

On 1/4/2020 at 6:59 PM, the Sower of Seed said:

After men were created, they imagined different gods with various powers. They incorporated them into their language. Today we have 2 words that are spelled the same, but have a different meaning according to the capitalization of the first g. GOD or God points to the Almighty God Jehovah, the Larger "G" gives reference to His Great Power, whereas the smaller "g" gives reference to a lessor one,a god can describe any "mighty one". Jesus is foretold to become a mighty god, not a mighty GOD. Pharaohs of Egypt were considered as gods. Many rulers try to be seen as such.

I made a mistake here, GOD & LORD replaced YHWH. Whereas "God" was used in some verses for either YHWH or YESHUA. Whereas "god" is applied toward the Word Jesus, Satan and mighty men but never YHWH. 

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On 1/6/2020 at 5:47 PM, the Sower of Seed said:

Isaiah 9:6 is a prophesy foretelling Jesus

agreed. 

On 1/6/2020 at 5:47 PM, the Sower of Seed said:

Jesus did not become an Eternal Father until after his unjust death as a Perfect Man as a corresponding atonement for Adams Perfect Life Blood.

Do you know that the word for eternal in hebrew means without end, but also without beginning? It was understood that the Messiah was always in existence, always. It was only the anticipation of the coming of the Messiah that was referenced with time. 

On 1/6/2020 at 5:47 PM, the Sower of Seed said:

Revelation 3:14“To the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ceʹa write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God

The word arche does not always mean beginning as you and other think. It also means the origin or the source. Supporting scripture for this is found in John 1:3

" All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being."

So all things were created by Jesus and not one thing that has been created was created without Jesus. Plain, simple and straight forward, even by means of Greek definition. 

On 1/6/2020 at 5:47 PM, the Sower of Seed said:

You disagree with the inspired word of GOD?

Acts 19:26 "You see and hear that not only in Ephesus, but in almost all of [a]Asia, this Paul has persuaded and turned away a considerable number of people, saying that gods made with hands are no gods at all."

On 1/6/2020 at 5:47 PM, the Sower of Seed said:

John 1:1 speaks of 2 gods.

nope, that is a man made idea to lessen the significance of Jesus to fit the jw (insert whatever religion believes this as well) narrative. Even scripture speaks that men will come and do this exact thing. Matt 24:5, Mark 13:6, Luke 21:8

 

On 1/6/2020 at 5:47 PM, the Sower of Seed said:

I made a mistake here, GOD & LORD replaced YHWH. Whereas "God" was used in some verses for either YHWH or YESHUA. Whereas "god" is applied toward the Word Jesus, Satan and mighty men but never YHWH. 

 But it is with context and the ancient manuscripts that we can learn what is exactly written. If one does not do their OWN research and instead relies on others to spoon feed them, then you get people like Jim Jones and Marshall Applewhite. 

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11 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

" All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being."

So all things were created by Jesus and not one thing that has been created was created without Jesus. Plain, simple and straight forward, even by means of Greek definition. 

All things came into being through Him.

This means that Jehovah created with Jesus as His helper. It’s the same as when Jesus was on Earth as 100% human with no special ability or power. (He had to be all human in order to pay the corresponding life that Adam threw away. If Jesus was anything else, the sacrifice is invalid) Just as people who were resurrected by Jesus or the Apostles, it was Jehovah’s Holy Spirit that actually did the miracle. When someone was healed it was Jehovah’s Holy Spirit that made them well, not Jesus or the Apostles, although they are credited for it,the Holy Spirit flowed through them to do HIS and their own will.

NO Bible Verse names Jesus as the Creator

 

@Shiwiii said: Do you know that the word for eternal in hebrew means without end, but also without beginning? It was understood that the Messiah was always in existence, always. It was only the anticipation of the coming of the Messiah that was referenced with time. 

I Disagree

It is understood from the prophesy at Genesis 3:15 that a seed would come from God's "woman" or the angelic family. Michael who was God's firstborn son, (just as Isaac was to Abraham) was born as Jesus who became the foretold Messiah. YHWH is the FATHER, YESHUA is the son, and Abraham’s attempt to offer up Isaac was to give a mental picture of what was happening. GOD was giving His dear son. Like Isaac, Jesus was willing to give his life. Genesis 22.

The angels who were all created by God with Michael's assistance are Eternal beings, they all had a beginning. They are eternal by choice, as long as they accept/obey Jehovah's life standards.

Humans will become eternal by choice after Jesus hands all things back to God. They will gain everlasting life as perfect human’s living on Earth as long as they desire to live within Jehovah’s moral code.

On 1/6/2020 at 5:47 PM, the Sower of Seed said:

John 1:1 speaks of 2 gods.

 It must speak of 2 different beings in order to harmonize with the Hebrew verses such as Exodus 3:15 Then God said once more to Moses: “This is what you are to say to the Israelites, ‘Jehovah the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name FOREVER, and this is how I am to be remembered from generation to generation.

GOD'S NAME FOREVER IS YHWH, English JHWH or Jehovah, not Yeshua or Jesus

John1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 

Who was the Word and Why? Jehovah God is Holy, Righteous, Un-defiled, beyond our comprehension of life. He preferred not to speak to the criminal Adam or his offspring after Adam chose Satan's misleadings. This is why He used angels to speak with imperfect men almost every time. The angel He used most of the time was Jesus, thus he became the Word of God.

With this understanding the Bible verse at John 1:1 really says: In the beginning was the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was a god. 

This simply means Jesus was a mighty angel working beside his Greater Almighty Father Jehovah.

Jesus was CREATED by God,that is why he is called Firstborn and the only begotten.Then God used Jesus as a HELPER to create everything else. 

IF I read it, as you state it should read: In the beginning was GOD, and the GOD was with God, and the GOD was a god.

You Must disagree with the INSPIRED VERSE/S where it states the Almighty God's name is YHWH and not Yeshua. Jesus never said he was God. He affirmed he was the Son of God when Peter stated so.

 The True worshipers can see the truth so clearly, it's so simple.There are hundreds of verses showing YHWH is GOD.The 10 Commandments are given by HIM. Exodus 20:2 “I am Jehovah your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. 3 You must not have any other gods besides me.

 THIS MAKES JEHOVAH THE GOD THAT CREATED THE TEN PLAGUES AND OPENED THE RED SEA. THE ALMIGHTY!

 Men make Jesus a God in opposition to Jehovah. Whereas the truth is Jehovah created Michael / Jesus, He sent him to Earth, He gave him as a sacrifice, Jesus stated he was the exact representation of his father Jehovah. If people loved Jesus, they should love Jehovah who Jesus mirrored in his works and speech perfectly.

Satan drew Adam and Eve away from Jehovah with a lie. Today, he does the same through many surrogates. 

 As we look at the world we must ask who have the works described at Matthew 7:“15  Be on the watch for the false prophets who come to you in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves.16 By their fruits you will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? 17 Likewise, every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit.18 A good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, nor can a rotten tree produce fine fruit.19 Every tree not producing fine fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.20 Really, then, by their fruits you will recognize those men.

Today resisters of God repel men from the truth that they might not become The True Worshipers. Outside of the churches these men have no organization. Blinded by envy, jealousy or hate they are like nomads who repeat the lies inspired by alienation from God. They began in the 1st century and blossomed as Christianity from the 4th century on, teaching the falsehoods that entrap humanity as False Worshipers, the counterfeit worship created by Satan to mislead as many as possible away from the Truth. He has no compassion or love of humans, they are nothing to him. He misleads so they will not attain life, just as he will not. Men, having this same pain, do the same.

What was Jesus 1st warning of the Last Days?

Mtt.24:4 In answer Jesus said to them: “Look out that nobody misleads you, 

Today, God's Holy Spirit is propelling one organization on Earth to systematically preach the Good News of God's Kingdom. Mtt.24:14

    Hello guest!

They Were Foretold to be a name people to Him at Isaiah 43:10 

“You are my witnesses,” declares Jehovah,“Yes, my servant whom I have chosen,So that you may know and have faith in me And understand that I am the same One. Before me no God was formed, And after me there has been none.

John 4:23 Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him. 

 

  

 

 

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First off, typing with larger letters doesn't make your statements true, nor does it intimidate anyone.

 

5 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

NO Bible Verse names Jesus as the Creator

John 1:3 does 

" All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being."

 

and so does Colossians 1:16

" For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him."

 

When the Bible says that all things, not most things but ALL things, were created by Jesus, then I have to believe the Bible and not you.

 

5 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

The angels who were all created by God with Michael's assistance

not a single scripture backs this claim you make of Michael. 

 

5 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

Jesus was CREATED by God,that is why he is called Firstborn and the only begotten.Then God used Jesus as a HELPER to create everything else. 

This statement is in direct opposition to John 1:3. 

 

5 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

    Hello guest!

They Were Foretold to be a name people to Him at Isaiah 43:10 

So then you must not belong to Jesus as scripture says one must be

Romans 8:9 "However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him."

Galatians 3:24 " Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith." 

Lead us to whom? Jehovah? or Jesus?  its really a trick question......

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him."

The accent here is he created it 'for him'.

Who is this referring to? 

 

Read this quote from hebrews 1:

"Long ago God spoke to our forefathers by means of the prophets on many occasions and in many ways.  2 Now at the end of these days he (god) has spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things.  3 He is the reflection of God’s glory and the exact representation of his very being, and he sustains all things by the word of his power. And after he had made a purification for our sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

 

So did Jesus become part of God when he went back to heaven?  Or did he sit at his right hand?  Verse 2 above indicates that God appointed Jesus to do these things. 

 

Hebrews 1 goes on from verse 6

"For example, to which one of the angels did God ever say: “You are my son; today I have become your father”? And again: “I will become his father, and he will become my son”?  6 But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: “And let all of God’s angels do obeisance to him

 

Keep in mind that the word "father " means "life-giver". So while Jesus created all other things he received life from God as the firstborn of creation and after his death he was the first creation of god to receive immortality as a reward for his faithfulness.  

Verse 9 goes on to say the following about Jesus:

"You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your companions."

The emphases I wish to highlight here are the words "your god".

Hebrews 1 :13   

 "But about which of the angels has he ever said: “Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet”?

Jesus was the archangel before he came to earth ... and the scripture above refers to him after he went back to heaven.

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3 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

First off, typing with larger letters doesn't make your statements true, nor does it intimidate anyone.

I increase the font for those who have vision problems.

How do we Call Jehovah A Liar, just as Satan did? We do not believe what He has inspired!

We call Jesus a liar by implying he is GOD, he just pretended to be the Son of GOD.

HE PRETENDED to be sent to Earth as the Messiah and Mankind's Savior.

If Jesus is GOD than the Sacrifice is INVALID, IT WAS ALL A LIE!

Is the Bible FULL OF FALSEHOODS? Can we just ignore the verses that state YHWH is the ALMIGHTY GOD. 

3 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

and so does Colossians 1:16

" For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him."

The Verse states that all things were Created For Him. By Whom Were They Created?

You are stating GOD created all things for Himself...is that reasonable?

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5 hours ago, Arauna said:

The accent here is he created it 'for him'.

The part you cannot reconcile is: all things were made by Jesus and not one......not one......not one thing that has been made was made without Him.  You either believe that Jesus created Himself, or you believe something other then what the Bible says. Its clear as day and the writers of the jw bible know this, but still decided to insert "other" in Colossians 1. 

4 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

I increase the font for those who have vision problems.

I call bs on that one SOS! otherwise you would have always written that way. Nice try though. 

4 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

If Jesus is GOD than the Sacrifice is INVALID

says who? you?

 

4 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

The Verse states that all things were Created For Him. By Whom Were They Created?

you must have missed John 1:3, you and Arauna both seem to forget that verse. 

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18 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

you must have missed John 1:3, you and Arauna both seem to forget that verse. 

John 1:3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.

This verse says nothing new, I have read it many times.

Here is a clearer picture:

ALMIGHTY GOD YHWH had no beginning.

ALMIGHTY GOD YHWH created Michael, His Only Begotten Firstborn Son who was born Jesus.

ALMIGHTY GOD YHWH Said: Let US Create Man In OUR Image

ALMIGHTY GOD YHWH together with Jesus made everything else. 

ALMIGHTY GOD YHWH allowed His Firstborn the Joy of Helping his Daddy make things: All things came into existence through him

ALMIGHTY GOD YHWH is a loving Father, Many Fathers on Earth have allowed their sons to help them in imitation of Him.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, the Sower of Seed said:

and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.

The Him in this scripture is Jesus, agreed? 

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2 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

The Him in this scripture is Jesus, agreed? 

All things came into existence through him (Jesus)

The Almighty God Jehovah supplied the knowledge, the wisdom and the power. Jehovah is called the Creator at many verses,

Isaiah 40:28 Do you not know? Have you not heard? Jehovah, the Creator of the ends of the earth, is a God for all eternity. He never tires out or grows weary. His understanding is unsearchable.

As a Loving Father, He gives his son credit for the creation.

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20 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

If Jesus is GOD than the Sacrifice is INVALID

ALMIGHTY GOD YHWH had no beginning.

ALMIGHTY GOD YHWH created Michael, His Only Begotten Firstborn Son who was born Jesus.

ALMIGHTY GOD YHWH Said: Let US Create Man In OUR Image

ALMIGHTY GOD YHWH together with Jesus made everything else. 

ALMIGHTY GOD YHWH allowed His Firstborn the Joy of Helping his Daddy make things: All things came into existence through him

ALMIGHTY GOD YHWH is a loving Father, Many Fathers on Earth have allowed their sons to help them in imitation of Him.

Now We see and imagine the Fatherly Love Jehovah had for Jesus.

Jesus had corresponding love for his father.

After the 2 of them created Eden, Adam and Eve everything was Good.

Love was developing for Adam over many years and then it began for Eve.

This was the culmination of millions of years of creation.

The angels burst out in applause over these things.

Then Satan entered Eden and wrecked the good feeling of all.

In His Holiness, Jehovah pushed the rebels away and would not hear them.

The angels and flaming swords represent that vast divide.

They were criminals against the center of Justice in the universe,

they were like mud as compared to Jehovah's Righteousness, as Pure White Wool.

There was no way man could redeem themselves.

A perfect man just like Adam, without defect was needed to redeem mankind. 

According to Divine Law: Eye For Eye. A corresponding sacrifice must be Perfect Man for Perfect Man.

What was Adam when he was put to the test?

Was he a god?

Was he an angel?

Did he have holy spirit helping him resist?

For Divine Justice to be satisfied: Jesus had to be the same flesh as Adam, Eye for Eye.

John 1:14 So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth.

Exodus 21:23 But if a fatality does occur, then you must give life for life,24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,25 burn for burn, wound for wound, blow for blow.

But the gift is not like the trespass. For if by one man’s trespass many died, how much more did the undeserved kindness of God and his free gift by the undeserved kindness of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound to many!

1 Timothy 2:For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus,who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all—this is what is to be witnessed to in its own due time.

If Jesus was God or an angel or empowered with holy spirit, then he was not the same as the perfect flesh, Adam. If Jesus was any of these then the Bible is misleading and corrupt and the Sacrifice is INVALID, the vast divide still exist! 

 

 

 

 

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16 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

All things came into existence through him (Jesus)

I take this as an agreement that you believe the scripture we were talking about was about Jesus. 

So you agree that all things came into existence through Jesus, but you do not agree with the rest of John 1:3 where it states that not one thing that was made (created) was made (created) without Jesus.  Do I get this right? 

4 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

According to Divine Law: Eye For Eye. A corresponding sacrifice must be Perfect Man for Perfect Man.

please support this with scripture. I've heard it before, but I'd like to see the support for this. Your scripture in Exodus was dealing with the Jews and how they should handle internal conflicts, not God and His plans. God can do anything, as you know, so what makes you or anyone think that God requires like for like? There isn't a scripture that states this that I remember. 

 

Also, just to note: if Adam and Eve were perfect, then why did they sin? Perfection does not have a flaw, sin is a flaw....albeit deep down and not shown...still a flaw. 

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6 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

So you agree that all things came into existence through Jesus, but you do not agree with the rest of John 1:3 where it states that not one thing that was made (created) was made (created) without Jesus.  Do I get this right?

Up until Satan spoke with Eve there were 2 things Jesus did not create: himself and Jehovah.

 GOD was speaking to Jesus at Genesis 1:26 Then God said: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every creeping animal that is moving on the earth.” 

You agree?

1 Timothy 2:For there is one Godand one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus,who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all—this is what is to be witnessed to in its own due time.

The standard of God, eye for eye, found in the Law is a Principle of GOD. The Law is a tutor, teaching us today the views of GOD, the ROCK, unchanging.

We learn how He feels about murder, abortion, sexual relations, stealing, etc.....The Law is not binding today, but the principles are.

Jesus had to be corresponding to Adam in order for justice to occur.

After all, why did Jesus have to come to earth? Why did God not just forgive them? The 4 cardinal attributes of Jehovah are Love, Power, Wisdom and JUSTICE. 

Jehovah could not forgive Adam because Adam was Perfect. He had a relationship with Jehovah and understood the one law of Eden.

Even though Jehovah loved his first human son, Divine Law required Adam be held responsible for his thoughts and actions.

The Greek word for corresponding ransom has the flavor of "complete purchase price" Jesus had to match Adam, to pay the complete price, not one penny less.

What is the value of perfection, of a perfect man who could live forever?

How much would a court value him? 

The entire population today could not equal it! 

 

 

 

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On 1/10/2020 at 8:32 PM, the Sower of Seed said:

Up until Satan spoke with Eve there were 2 things Jesus did not create: himself and Jehovah.

2 Corinthians 10.5 For we are overturning reasonings and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are bringing every thought into captivity to make it obedient to the Christ; 

We MUST actively be bringing every thought into captivity, refuting falsehoods so that our sacrifice is to Him, GOD Almighty YHWH Jehovah and not demons. This is the mandatory action of everyone who would find pleasure in Jehovah and His Son. For if we worship a falsehood, or in falsehood, we worship demons who are in association with Satan the Devil, the father of the lie. Try to imagine that fact, that for eons, there were no lies spoken between all the spirits of Heaven. Not one lie in Heaven!  

Christ was a fleshly mirror of God, his thoughts were in union with God's. He spent eons with his Creator. He spoke of reverence toward his Father and taught mankind to pray to Him as God. Jesus affirmed he was the son of God, not God in the flesh.The Family representation from the Bible means a lot and we should always remember that YHWH is the Unsurpassed Almighty GOD and Father of every living thing, Jesus is a son among many. He was firstborn and knows his Father the best. They have a united bond of love from the ages they have shared.

We MUST examine every belief as to "why do I believe this"? What is the touchstone? The Entire Bible.

All Scripture is inspired by ONE GOD, His thought should match everywhere in the Bible, from beginning to end, from Genesis to Revelation, we should hear the same voice and thought of God Almighty YHWH.

We must harmonize every scripture speaking of God to know "Who is God?"and "What does He Hope for us and from us?"

The True Worshipers will be eager to know GOD. What does He say toward every belief we have. He has Exposed to us how He feels about what is the best way of life, not only for OURSELVES, but for the OTHER PERSON and the Entire Body of Life.

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness,17 so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.

Romans 15:4 For all the things that were written beforehand were written for our instruction, so that through our endurance and through the comfort from the Scriptures we might have hope. 

The Bible many time speaks about giving Jehovah the best Sacrifice. He gave guidelines as to what was approved and the joy that we should have in giving it. He spoke through Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Saul, David, Solomon, Hezekiah, Jesus and the Apostles, of to who and what that sacrifice is. When He gave Jesus, He gave the Best He had of His angelic creation.

Jesus had to be a perfect man just as the pre-sin Adam was, that excludes Jesus from having any godly or angelic powers. The miracles Jesus performed were the same as the Apostles performed, all accomplished by GOD's Holy Spirit. The painful suffering and godly restraint were human, an example of what the man of God can and should do. 

I John 2:2 And he is a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins, yet not for ours only but also for the whole world’s. 

1 John 4:10 The love is in this respect, not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins.

Hebrews 4:12 But this man offered one sacrifice for sins for all time and sat down at the right hand of God, 

1 Corinthians 10:20 No; but I say that what the nations sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God; and I do not want you to become sharers with the demons. 

How are they Sacrificing to demons? They Worship in FALSEHOOD, NOT TO THE TRUTH OF GOD.

The Bible Exalts Jehovah as the Almighty, the Creator, the Eternal of the past and future, Without Beginning and End, He is the Lawgiver, He is the Giver of Christ Jesus, He is the Hearer of Prayer, He is the embodiment of Love, Justice, Wisdom and Power. All the angels praise Him in acknowledgment of this:

Revelation 4:11 “You are worthy, Jehovah our God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, because you created all things, and because of your will they came into existence and were created.”

We then ask who is speaking at Genesis 1:26 Then God said: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness,and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every creeping animal that is moving on the earth. Who was God speaking to? 

GOD ALMIGHTY YHWH is speaking to Michael / Jesus. Jehovah loved him so much, He created many others like him using Michael / Jesus as His helper. This statement is in unity with Revelation 4:11 as truth.

Jehovah is the Almighty God, who loves his creation so much HE GAVE IS BELOVED SON, JESUS, IN OUR BEHALF.

Hebrews 10:5 So when he (Jesus) comes into the world, he (Jesus) says: “‘Sacrifice and offering you (GOD YHWH) did not want, but you (GOD YHWH) prepared a body for me. 

Many may find reverence to Jesus, prayer to Jesus, worship of Jesus as a lofty thing. The True Worshipers will Worship Jehovah God while loving Jesus for all he accomplished in teaching us who God is. We Honor Jesus as our teacher and instructor, knowing his commands are from Jehovah. We are eternally grateful all he has suffered in our behalf. We acknowledge that Jesus is the firstborn son of the Creator Jehovah and is loved by Him as an obedient son. We Recognize, like the angels of Revelation 4:11, All Prayer and Praise should be directed to You the Father Jehovah, the Giver of Life and every good thing. 

 

 

 

 

Who should you Love the Gift or the Giver.We love both but recognize that Jehovah gave us Christ Jesus.jpg

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On 1/10/2020 at 6:32 PM, the Sower of Seed said:

Jesus did not create: himself and Jehovah.

you're right! this is because according to John 1:3 nothing was created without Jesus that was ever created. So YHWH was always existing. Glad we agree. 

 

On 1/10/2020 at 6:32 PM, the Sower of Seed said:

GOD was speaking to Jesus at Genesis 1:26 Then God said: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every creeping animal that is moving on the earth.” 

You agree?

yup

On 1/10/2020 at 6:32 PM, the Sower of Seed said:

Jesus had to be corresponding to Adam in order for justice to occur.

unsubstantiated 

 

On 1/10/2020 at 6:32 PM, the Sower of Seed said:

Adam was Perfect

disagree, something perfect does not have a flaw nor does it gain a flaw, for then it is not perfect. 

 

On 1/10/2020 at 6:32 PM, the Sower of Seed said:

The Greek word for corresponding ransom has the flavor of "complete purchase price"

give the word. 

 

 

I didn't finish reading the other post you had.....sorry I had to stop because it sounded like a cut and paste out of a wt. So many assumptions with NOTHING backing it. 

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20 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

unsubstantiated 

ALMOST EVERY EXPRESSION IS MINE. Scripture are copied.

1 Timothy 2:For there is one Godand one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus,who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all—this is what is to be witnessed to in its own due time.

WHO DID JESUS SACRIFICE CORRESPOND TO?

20 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

Adam was Perfect

@Shiwiii said disagree, something perfect does not have a flaw nor does it gain a flaw, for then it is not perfect.

You believe God created us to suffer a few years and die? 

Or

When God Cursed the land he changed Adam and Eve from perfect to imperfect?

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2 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

1 Timothy 2:For there is one Godand one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus,who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all—this is what is to be witnessed to in its own due time.

Do you realize that the word "corresponding " is not in the ancient manuscripts and is inserted by men to meet an agenda? That agenda is to equate Jesus with Adam, just as you are doing. Adam and Jesus were not equals, never were and never will be. Jesus created Adam (John 1:3). Adam could not create anything but trouble for himself and his wife, lol. 

 

Weymouth New Testament
1 Timothy 2:6 (WNT) who gave Himself as the redemption price for all--a fact testified to at its own appointed time,

The Webster Bible
1 Timothy 2:6 (WBT) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Young's Literal Translation
1 Timothy 2:6 (YLT) who did give himself a ransom for all -- the testimony in its own times --

Wycliffe
1 Timothy 2:6 (WYC) that gave himself redemption for all men. Whose witnessing is confirmed in his times;

World English Bible
1 Timothy 2:6 (WEB) who gave himself as a ransom for all; the testimony in its own times;

Tyndale
1 Timothy 2:6 (TYN) which gave him silfe a raunsome for all men that it shuld be testified at his tyme

Third Millennium Bible w/ Apocrypha
1 Timothy 2:6 (TMBA) who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

Revised Standard Version
1 Timothy 2:6 (RSV) who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time.

Third Millennium Bible
1 Timothy 2:6 (TMB) who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

Revised Standard Version w/ Apocrypha
1 Timothy 2:6 (RSVA) who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time.

SBL Greek New Testament
1 Timothy 2:6 (SBLG) ὁ δοὺς ἑαυτὸν ἀντίλυτρον ὑπὲρ πάντων, τὸ μαρτύριον καιροῖς ἰδίοις ·

Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible
1 Timothy 2:6 (RHE) Who gave himself a redemption for all, a testimony in due times.

New Revised Standard w/ Apocrypha
1 Timothy 2:6 (NRSA) who gave himself a ransom for all —this was attested at the right time.

Orthodox Jewish Bible
Timotiyos I 2:6 (OJB) The one who gave his nefesh [YESHAYAH 53:10-12] as a kofer (ransom), on behalf of all. The edut (testimony) of this was given at the right time.

New Century Version
1 Timothy 2:6 (NCV) He gave himself as a payment to free all people. He is proof that came at the right time.

New Revised Standard
1 Timothy 2:6 (NRS) who gave himself a ransom for all —this was attested at the right time.

Jubilee Bible 2000
1 Timothy 2:6 (JUB) who gave himself in ransom for all, the testimony of which <em>was confirmed</em> at the time,

New Living Translation
1 Timothy 2:6 (NLT) He gave his life to purchase freedom for everyone. This is the message God gave to the world at just the right time.

New King James Version
1 Timothy 2:6 (NKJV) who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

New International Version
1 Timothy 2:6 (NIV) who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

New International Reader's Version
1 Timothy 2:6 (NIRV) He gave himself to pay for the sins of everyone. That was a witness given by God at just the right time.

Lexham English Bible
1 Timothy 2:6 (LEB) who gave himself a ransom for all, the testimony at the proper time,

New American Standard Bible
1 Timothy 2:6 (NAS) who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.

The Message Bible
1 Timothy 2:6 (MSG) who offered himself in exchange for everyone held captive by sin, to set them all free. Eventually the news is going to get out.

Good News Translation
1 Timothy 2:6 (GNT) who gave himself to redeem the whole human race. That was the proof at the right time that God wants everyone to be saved,

GOD'S WORD Translation
1 Timothy 2:6 (GW) He sacrificed himself for all people to free them from their sins. This message is valid for every era.

King James Version w/ Apocrypha
1 Timothy 2:6 (KJVA) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

King James Version
1 Timothy 2:6 (KJV) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Good News Translation w/ Apocrypha
1 Timothy 2:6 (GNTA) who gave himself to redeem the whole human race. That was the proof at the right time that God wants everyone to be saved,

Hebrew Names Version
1 Timothy 2:6 (HNV) who gave himself as a ransom for all; the testimony in its own times;

The Darby Translation
1 Timothy 2:6 (DBY) who gave himself a ransom for all, the testimony [to be rendered] in its own times;

English Standard Version
1 Timothy 2:6 (ESV) who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

The Bible in Basic English
1 Timothy 2:6 (BBE) Who gave himself as an offering for all; witness of which was to be given at the right time;

Common English Bible
1 Timothy 2:6 (CEB) who gave himself as a payment to set all people free. This was a testimony that was given at the right time.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
1 Timothy 2:6 (CSB) who gave Himself-a ransom for all, a testimony at the proper time.

The Complete Jewish Bible
1 Timothy 2:6 (CJB) who gave himself as a ransom on behalf of all, thus providing testimony to God's purpose at just the right time.

Common English Bible w/ Apocrypha
1 Timothy 2:6 (CEBA) who gave himself as a payment to set all people free. This was a testimony that was given at the right time.

American Standard Version
1 Timothy 2:6 (ASV) who gave himself a ransom for all; the testimony [to be borne] in its own times;

 

All of these different versions of the Bible state that Jesus gave Himself as a ransom for all, not a corresponding ransom. Nothing is stated as equality here in the verse. Also to note, in the Codex Sinaiticus the word used is 

G487

ἀντίλυτρον

antilutron

an-til'-oo-tron

From G473 and G3083 ; a redemption price: - ransom.

Nothing indicates an equal ransom. I'm not saying you can't believe that it does, but the facts show that it does not. 

 

2 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

You believe God created us to suffer a few years and die? 

Or

When God Cursed the land he changed Adam and Eve from perfect to imperfect?

No God did not create us to suffer and die, He created us to live in harmony with Him. It was our (Adam's) choice to disobey and we continue to do so to this day. This is why Jesus came to redeem us. God knew we would fall short, that is why the Bible tells us that we were chosen before the world began:

Ephesians 1 

1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,

To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

 

 

 

 

Also to note, have you noticed that the letters Paul wrote to the different cities all start kind of the same:

Romans 1:1 Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God,

1 Corinthians 1:1 Paul, called as an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

2 Corinthians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother,

Philippians 1:1 Paul and Timothy, bond-servants of Christ Jesus,

Colossians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother,

 

Why are Paul and Timothy not declaring that they are Jehovah's witnesses but rather stating that they are belonging to Jesus and are followers of Him. This is what they proudly proclaim in written form.  Just an FYI. 

 

 

 

 

 

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On 1/13/2020 at 9:39 PM, Shiwiii said:

unsubstantiated

Jesus did create Adam and was the first creation of jehovah. However he did not have immortality. He received immortality from jehovah at his resurrection.

When he was on earth he was in flesh completely equal to Adam. He was a perfect human being in flesh and did not have an immortal soul.

1 cor 15:45  " it is written: the first man Adam became a living soul; the last Adam life-giving spirit.

 Here it calls Jesus the last Adam and indicates he was raised up as a spirit.  While on earth he was equivalent to Adam but received immortality afterward. The rest of the chapter discusses resurrection to heavenly life.

Hebrews 2 : 17 "  I struggled for a long time to get this verse copied. My fingers and iPad did not comply. Please read this verse in any translation...... it proves the point.

 

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8 minutes ago, Arauna said:

he was in flesh completely equal to Adam.

I disagree equality with Adam. Nothing in scripture states equality with Adam. 

9 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Here it calls Jesus the last Adam

Yes, but context is what prevails here. Scripture is not stating equality with Adam as a man, but rather as we received a sentence of death from the first Adam, we receive a sentence of life from Jesus; making Jesus an "Adam" in a sense of giving to all a sentence, similar to the first Adam.   

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2 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

Adam" in a sense of giving to all a sentence, similar to the first Adam. 

You did not read hebrews 2 : 17 which clearly states that he had to become similar to his brothers in all respects..... to provide a "propitiatory" sacrifice. He had to suffer like them and give his soul in death like them..... if jesus did not really die - the randsom sacrifice was not really paid and there is no resurrection.  Read 1 cor 15 - the chapter.

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5 minutes ago, Arauna said:

You did not read hebrews 2 : 17 which clearly states that he had to become similar to his brothers in all respects..... to provide a "propitiatory" sacrifice. He had to suffer like them and give his soul in death like them..... if jesus did not really die - the randsom sacrifice was not really paid and there is no resurrection.  Read 1 cor 15 - the chapter.

again, context is key. The part in which you are referring to is explaining the nature of man and how Jesus needed to be fully man in order to have US reconcile Him to us and accept His offering as a sacrifice for mankind. This was not to satisfy God or some equality requirement but instead for US.  Did you happen to notice in verse 14 were it states that He partook, or shared in the experience of mankind. This is voluntary and not because of limitations. Verse 16 speaks of Jesus being tempted, just as we are tempted, Why? Why would Jesus need to be tempted? So that we can come to Him, He can relate directly to our desires and our human thinking and help us. It is for this reason and many more that He is the WAY.

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1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

Nothing in scripture states equality with Adam. 

So when Jesus was on earth in which ways was he not similar to Adam.

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1 hour ago, Arauna said:

So when Jesus was on earth in which ways was he not similar to Adam.

Who said He wasn't similar to Adam?

similar and equal are two very different things. 

 

 

Was Jesus a man while on Earth? Yep. 

Did He relinquish those attributes He held prior to coming to Earth when He came down?  Nope.   

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On 1/13/2020 at 11:39 AM, Shiwiii said:
On 1/10/2020 at 8:32 PM, the Sower of Seed said:

Jesus had to be corresponding to Adam in order for justice to occur.

unsubstantiated 

(From a Greek Interlinear:

the (one
)
δοὺς (having given) ἑαυτὸν (himself) ἀντίλυτρον (corresponding ransom) ὑπὲρ (over)

 

 

 

(all (ones) τὸ (the) μαρτύριον (witness) καιροῖς (to appointed times)

The Flavor of ἀντί  λυτρον is corresponding to (Christ had to COVER Adam’s Life as the Best of Human Creation) without defect, without sin, very good, perfect without blemish.His Disobedience caused his change from perfect to un-perfect.

The only Absolute perfection is Jehovah God. He created angels and humans with Free Will rather than force them to obey,  He offers benefits for obedience and punishment for disobedience.

The Entire theme of the Bible is God explaining what has happened and what steps are being taken to return man to spiritual and fleshly perfection.

There would be no need for a Bible if Adam did not sin, for God spoke to Adam and Eve and would speak with us if we were not sinful.

Genesis 1:26 Then God said: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every creeping animal that is moving on the earth.”   

How was Adam like God? Adam had a consciousness of life, he could reason, adding one thought to another, he had a conscience, discerning what is wrong and right, he had the potential to live forever like God.

Genesis 1:28 Further, God blessed them, and God said to them: “Be fruitful and become many, fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving on the earth.”

God commissioned them to do something that would take thousands/millions of years. Would God order them to do this if they were to die long before they finished?

Genesis 2:15 Jehovah God took the man and settled him in the garden of Eden to cultivate it and to take care of it.16 Jehovah God also gave this command to the man: “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction.17 But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will certainly die.”

Death is the penalty for disobedience, had there not been disobedience, there would not be human death. Genesis 3:4 Satan calls God a liar: 4 At this the serpent said to the woman: “You certainly will not die. Eve ate and gave some to Adam.

After Adam sinned, God sat in judgment of them and foretold the future of man and Satan. God foretells a “seed” that would come from God’s creation and Satan would give it a “Heel” wound, afterwards the seed would give Satan a head wound.

Why is man the dominate sex? To the woman he said: “I will greatly increase the pain of your pregnancy; in pain you will give birth to children, and your longing will be for your husband, and he will dominate you.”

Genesis 3:17 And to Adam he said: “Because you listened to your wife’s voice and ate from the tree concerning which I gave you this command, ‘You must not eat from it,’ cursed is the ground on your account. In pain you will eat its produce all the days of your life. (The foods we desire must be cultivated)

Is it possible for humans to live forever? Jehovah God then said: “Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad. Genesis 3:22 Now in order that he may not put his hand out and take fruit also from the tree of life and eat and live forever.

Mankind could eat this fruit and live forever, Adam and Eve were free to eat it while they lived in the Garden, in fact they may have eaten it regularly. Even after Adam sinned it could have this affect, but it would not repair the relationship with God or change the way the Earth and it’s people suffer today.

God cast Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden and never spoke with them again. They were now criminals, having transgressed the law of God. We all live within a prison of sin and death. In order to be freed, someone equivalent to Adam would have to sacrifice that possible eternal future as a human to God to replace the life Adam, our father, threw away.

How GOOD was the life Adam and Eve would have lived?

We only need to look at what God promises to those who accept the value of Christ’ blood and enter a relationship with Him, hoping to never forsake appreciation for all He has done.

No Wars, Feeling of Security on their own place:

Psalm 46:9  He is bringing an end to wars throughout the earth….

Micah 4:4 They will sit, each one under his vine and under his fig tree, And no one will make them afraid, For the mouth of Jehovah of armies has spoken.

God will cause the Earth to produce:

Isaiah 35  The wilderness and the parched land will exult, And the desert plain will be joyful and blossom as the saffron.

Their own place and they will build their own homes:

Isaiah 65:21-23  They will build houses and live in them,

And they will plant vineyards and eat their fruitage.

22  They will not build for someone else to inhabit,

Nor will they plant for others to eat.

For the days of my people will be like the days of a tree,

And the work of their hands my chosen ones will enjoy to the full.

23  They will not toil for nothing,

Nor will they bear children for distress,

Because they are the offspring made up of those blessed by Jehovah,

And their descendants with them.

Never Sick:

Isaiah 33:24  And no resident will say: “I am sick.”

The people dwelling in the land will be pardoned for their error.

Youthful Flesh and Energy Forever:….

Job 33:25  Let his flesh become fresher than in youth;

Let him return to the days of his youthful vigor.

Interactivity with God:

Isaiah 65:24 Even before they call out, I will answer; While they are yet speaking, I will hear.

Peace with the animals:

Isaiah 65:25 The wolf and the lamb will feed together, The lion will eat straw just like the bull, And the serpent’s food will be dust. They will do no harm nor cause any ruin in all my holy mountain,” says Jehovah.

Isaiah 11:6 The wolf will reside for a while with the lamb, And with the young goat the leopard will lie down, And the calf and the lion and the fattened animal will all be together; And a little boy will lead them. 7 The cow and the bear will feed together, And their young will lie down together. The lion will eat straw like the bull. 8 The nursing child will play over the lair of a cobra, And a weaned child will put his hand over the den of a poisonous snake. 9 They will not cause any harm Or any ruin in all my holy mountain, Because the earth will certainly be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah.

Adam was the Best of God’s creations, the “crowning point of creation” God looked at Adam and Eve and concluded they were “ very good”. Adam and Eve would have had all that God promises us by means of His Kingdom. Jesus human life had to “cover” all that Adam was and could become prior to his disobedience.

The Books of Exodus, Leviticus & Deuteronomy explain God’s principles and that sacrifices to Him all had to be without blemish, perfect, the best you had.

Exodus 21:23 But if a fatality does occur, then you must give life for life,24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,25 burn for burn, wound for wound, blow for blow.

Jesus human attributes and behavior had to be correspond to what Adam was prior to his disobedience.

 

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

Did He relinquish those attributes He held prior to coming to earth........ Nope

 Was he flest like Adam when ön Earth? 

16 minutes ago, the Sower of Seed said:

Mankind could eat this fruit and live forever, Adam and Eve were free to eat it while they lived in the Garden, in fact they may have eaten it regularly. Even after

Interesting thought: like the tree of good and bad , I was sure it was symbolic...... because there is no way jehovah would make our everlasting lives depend on a literal tree as we need obedience to him for e everlasting life..... 

19 minutes ago, the Sower of Seed said:

life,24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,25 burn for burn, wound for wound, blow for blow.

Good scripture: jesus paid the randsom with eye for eye, ........it was an exact equal sacrifice... Jehovah knows how to do anything with equal justice and righteousness. 

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9 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

Who said He wasn't similar to Adam?

similar and equal are two very different things. 

Actually Jesus was more than equal... if you want to get technical.  Jehovah could have sent another angel  but he did not because he sent the best he had - his first created son.  (His firstborn).

However when on earth - he was just a man in flesh like Adam. He forfeited his position in heaven and received an earthly body like Adam.  He put his soul in death like Adam - so his sacrifice / price was a perfect soul  for an imperfect soul.....  a ransom.  

He was subject to the same conditions (pain and suffering)  imperfect Adam and the whole of mankind experienced and yet maintained perfect loyalty to God.  He was subject to death, injury, hunger, pain, betrayal etc - As a fleshly man he was equal to Adam - BEFORE Adam sinned. Adam started out perfect like Jesus. Jesus proved that  perfect Adam could have remained faithful to God even when tested.

 

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8 hours ago, Arauna said:

Interesting thought: like the tree of good and bad , I was sure it was symbolic...... because there is no way jehovah would make our everlasting lives depend on a literal tree as we need obedience to him for e everlasting life..... 

I hear you, I'm just trying to answer the statement that was made that something created perfect doesn't become imperfect.

 As we think about that day some 6000 years ago, Jehovah throws them out, physically they are still perfect, how did they physically become imperfect? Did Jehovah alter Adam's DNA? Did physical perfection depend on something in Eden?

Jehovah seems to indicate they could sustain physical perfection by re-entering the Garden, but how could something ingested alter your DNA toward perfection? 

Spiritual Perfection depends on obedience and a active relationship with Jehovah, that perfection will allow us to communicate with Jehovah individually.Can we even imagine that?

After Armageddon, Jehovah will teach us how to achieve all we can be through the "leaves of the trees that grow close to the waters from the throne". Today, we search the deeper things of the Bible, stringing verses together as we go deeper into a well that cannot be exhausted. 

 

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14 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

The Flavor of ἀντί  λυτρον is corresponding to (Christ had to COVER Adam’s Life as the Best of Human Creation) without defect, without sin, very good, perfect without blemish.His Disobedience caused his change from perfect to un-perfect.

What Greek interlinear/Lexicon/ are you using? None of the ones I have cross referenced said anything about corresponding.

Strong's, Thayer, Dodson, Liddell and Scott, Tyndale all say ransom and do not elude to a corresponding, or equal payment. 

 

14 hours ago, Arauna said:

Was he flest like Adam when ön Earth? 

yup

11 hours ago, Arauna said:

However when on earth - he was just a man in flesh like Adam.

I would argue "just a man in flesh", not quite. "just a man in flesh" does not do the things Jesus did. When was the last time YOU walked on water? Healed the Blind? Cast out demons....who know you by name....? Fed thousands with some small fish and some bread? Etc.

 

11 hours ago, Arauna said:

sacrifice / price was a perfect soul  for an imperfect soul.....  a ransom.  

Then why does scripture say Jesus paid the ransom for ALL? If it was just man for man, then why does it say for all? Because it is not equal for equal, it is Jesus for ALL. You, me and those down the street. 

 

11 hours ago, Arauna said:

He was subject to the same conditions (pain and suffering)

agreed

11 hours ago, Arauna said:

He was subject to death, injury, hunger, pain, betrayal etc

agreed

11 hours ago, Arauna said:

As a fleshly man he was equal to Adam - BEFORE Adam sinned.

disagree

Adam NEVER had the position Jesus has always had. 

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

When was the last time YOU walked on water? Healed the Blind? Cast out demons

I have not, but Paul and Peter raised people from the dead because they received the same Holy spirit as jesus did and many of early anointed had special gifts from God to help with establishment of new congregations.

 

15 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

Adam NEVER had the position Jesus has always had. 

I agree with the above. But I did not say what you say above.

 

15 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

As a fleshly man he was equal to Adam - BEFORE Adam sinned.

I said the above. 

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3 minutes ago, Arauna said:

I have not, but Paul and Peter raised people from the dead because they received the same Holy spirit as jesus did and many of early anointed had special gifts from God to help with establishment of new congregations.

 

I agree with the above. But I did not say what you say above.

 

I said the above. 

Its totally fine that we do not agree.

I have not seen one scripture which backs your (and the rest of jws) claims Adam and Jesus were equal, not for a ransom, not for anything.

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36 minutes ago, Arauna said:

You left out this:  BEFORE Adam sinned.  

doesn't matter. Before, after, during.....never was Adam and Jesus equal

 

I'd also like to add to the discussion, Isaiah 53. 

What does this chapter say about the Messiah? The last verse speaks about the whole chapter:

Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors.

 

This hardly sounds like an equivalent with Adam. 

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Hebrews 9:27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

 

Again, These scriptures clearly state the value of Jesus' sacrifice is much greater then that of Adam. 

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1 John 2:2 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

 

1 John 4:10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

 

 

Matt 20:24 And hearing this, the ten became indignant with the two brothers. 25 But Jesus called them to Himself and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. 26 It is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, 27 and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.

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5 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

I would argue "just a man in flesh", not quite. "just a man in flesh" does not do the things Jesus did. When was the last time YOU walked on water? Healed the Blind? Cast out demons....who know you by name....? Fed thousands with some small fish and some bread? Etc.

What were the Apostles, were they more than imperfect men, more than just men of flesh? No, they were even SINNERS who God's Holy Spirit empowered to raise the dead, heal the sick, expel demons, walk on the water, speak in tongues. The Holy Spirit from the ONLY ALMIGHTY GOD DID ALL THE MIRACLES. GOD is the Source of HOLY SPIRIT, not Jesus, Not Paul, Not Peter, Only Jehovah is why it is called “God’s Holy Spirit”

2 Corinthians 4:7 Now there are different gifts, but there is the same spirit;5and there are different ministries, and yet there is the same Lord;and there are different activities, and yet it is the same God who performs them all in everyone.But the manifestation of the spirit is given to each one for a beneficial purpose.

ἀντί λυτρον is a dual word, search for ἀντί  then search for λυτρον. ἀντί  will yield results of "instead of" meaning Jesus life instead of Adams, or corresponding Jesus to Adam. λυτρον will yield ransom

5 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

Then why does scripture say Jesus paid the ransom for ALL? If it was just man for man, then why does it say for all? Because it is not equal for equal, it is Jesus for ALL. You, me and those down the street. 

5 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

I have not seen one scripture which backs your (and the rest of jws) claims Adam and Jesus were equal, not for a ransom, not for anything.

Every person born from Adam needed a sinless man to redeem them from their father Adam's sin. God applies Jesus sacrifice to Adam, freeing every son and daughter from the debt incurred from Adam the father. Adam was the only sinless man that needed a redeemer to release his family.

You have been shown several scriptures, you are not accepting the evidence before you that Jesus was miraculously born a sinless man, Adam was created a sinless man, when Adam sinned, a sinless man had to give his life to pay the price in order to free the children of the man that sinned. Adam sold his children into slavery to sin.

Here is the legal basis to repurchase a slave, which all of us are. This is the legal touchstone from the Grand Judge and Lawgiver Jehovah

Leviticus 25:

47“‘But if a foreign resident or a settler among you becomes wealthy and your brother has become poor alongside him and must sell himself to the foreign resident or the settler who lives among you, or to a member of the family of the foreign resident,48 he will continue to have the right of repurchase after he has sold himself. One of his brothers may buy him back,49 or his uncle or the son of his uncle may buy him back, or any close relative, one of his family, may buy him back. “‘Or if he himself has become wealthy, he may also buy himself back.

Jehovah became the Repurchaser of every one who has inherited slavery to sin, why Jehovah and not Jesus? Jehovah gave His Son, Jesus. Jesus was born in the flesh and by extension became like his brothers of the human “family” his blood would free from slavery. Paul states this at Hebrews 2:   

11For both the one who is sanctifying and those who are being sanctified all stem from one, and for this reason he is not ashamed to call them brothers,12 as he says: “I will declare your name to my brothers; in the midst of the congregation I will praise you with song.”13 And again: “I will put my trust in him.” And again: “Look! I and the young children, whom Jehovah gave me.”14 Therefore, since the “young children” are sharers of blood and flesh, he also similarly shared in the same things, so that through his death he might bring to nothing the one having the means to cause death, that is, the Devil,15 and that he might set free all those who were held in slavery all their lives by their fear of death.16 For it is not really angels he is assisting, but he is assisting Abraham’s offspring.17 Consequently, he had to become like his “brothers” in all respects, so that he could become a merciful and faithful high priest in things relating to God, in order to offer a propitiatory sacrifice for the sins of the people.

Ephesians1:7 By means of him we have the release by ransom through the blood of that one, yes, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his undeserved kindness.

Revelation 5:9 And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

14:3 And they are singing what seems to be a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders, and no one was able to master that song except the 144,000, who have been bought from the earth.4 These are the ones who did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins. These are the ones who keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb,

 This point is not nominally argued, what organization does your beliefs represent? 

 

 

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12 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

What were the Apostles, were they more than imperfect men, more than just men of flesh? No, they were even SINNERS who God's Holy Spirit empowered to raise the dead, heal the sick, expel demons, walk on the water, speak in tongues. The Holy Spirit from the ONLY ALMIGHTY GOD DID ALL THE MIRACLES

agreed

 

13 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

Every person born from Adam needed a sinless man to redeem them from their father Adam's sin. God applies Jesus sacrifice to Adam, freeing every son and daughter from the debt incurred from Adam the father. Adam was the only sinless man that needed a redeemer to release his family.

Then why did Jesus say that He died for the sins of MANY? Matt 20:26 specifically?

The scriptures I quoted in my previous post shows that Jesus died for more then just Adam and that is what Jesus even said. So then the question is, Do you believe Jesus or the gb?  

 

13 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

You have been shown several scriptures, you are not accepting the evidence before you that Jesus was miraculously born a sinless man

please...gimmie a break. strawman much?

 

13 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

Adam was created a sinless man, when Adam sinned, a sinless man had to give his life to pay the price in order to free the children of the man that sinned. Adam sold his children into slavery to sin.

Here is the legal basis to repurchase a slave, which all of us are. This is the legal touchstone from the Grand Judge and Lawgiver Jehovah

 so we are going round and round. You keep bringing up that eye for eye thing and that's supposedly how God does things....ok, lets look at something:

 

Exodus 21:23 But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

 

This is where you are at? yes.....this is your, and the rest of jws, get your belief on Adam=Jesus. 

 

Why if this is "Gods way" and He has to have an equal payment/ransom, then why did God allow for Israel to sacrifice a ram/goat/bird etc. for the atonement for the nation of Israel over and over and over again in the OT? 

The reason is because it isn't Gods way to have an eye for an eye, etc. It was His rules for Israel and to show them that sins needed a covering. God hates sin and the penalty for sin is death. Did He kill people in the OT for sins? Sometimes He did, but He had a plan already in place to atone for the sins of all of mankind, Jesus death. Jesus died for the sins of many, not just Adam. Jesus said so and I believe He said it to correct the belief of eye for eye. Just read again Matt 20 and listen to what Jesus said. He said He was the ransom for many and gave an illustration of paying wages to men who worked. Some worked longer then others but all received the same pay and when they began to grumble, He pointed out that the payment was made upon agreement, and that generosity was given to those who do not deserve it. Jesus goes on to say that same thing but by means of His ransom. We do not deserve to be let off the hook for our sins, it is by our faith in Jesus we get to......all who call upon the name of the Lord, Jesus. 

 

2 Corinthians 5:

17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. 18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has]committed to us the word of reconciliation.

20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

 

again, here it is stated that Jesus died for many, not just one. If we believe that Jesus died for Adam's sin and not because of our own sin, then we have missed the whole point of Jesus sacrifice. Jesus died to reconcile us to God. This is what is being said in 2 Cor 5. We cannot blame Adam for our sins, our sins are ours and it is only by faith in Jesus do they get forgiven by the sacrifice He paid for each and every one of us who believe. 

14 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

This point is not nominally argued, what organization does your beliefs represent?

I do not align with an organization, I align with people who read the Bible and understand it as I do. I am not THE expert on the Bible, but I know some who are and even they are sinners. 

 

You forgot to add to Hebrews 2 verse 9

But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

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9 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

Then why did Jesus say that He died for the sins of MANY? Matt 20:26 specifically?

26 This must not be the way among you; but whoever wants to become great among you must be your minister, 

I felt I explained this already, Adam was sinless, A sinless man was needed to repurchase the human family that inherited sin from Adam. Jesus died for all who inherited sin from Adam. Jesus gave his life to God to repurchase us with the equal value of his sinless human life. If Adam was valued at $1,000,000 would God accept a sinner valued at $100.

No, a sinless man, equal to Adam, had to give his life and all his eternal hope as a human, to pay Adam's debt to God for his sin. Jesus body repurchased all who have died in Adam and gives us access in prayer to God to ask forgiveness for own sins.

10 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

Why if this is "Gods way" and He has to have an equal payment/ransom, then why did God allow for Israel to sacrifice a ram/goat/bird etc. for the atonement for the nation of Israel over and over and over again in the OT? 

Jehovah allowed animal sacrifice to teach mankind their hopeless condition.The blood of animals did not bring forgiveness of sin or access to Him in prayer. They did not equal the sinless man Adam's blood. Adam had to be replaced. Jesus became the father of all in place of Adam, giving