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There is no doubt that In the last 106 years since 1914 the Christian congregation has had to deal with an entire world era of much more critical times than previous historical eras that have come upon the Christian congregation. Yet, when Paul said that in the last days the Christian congregation would see critical times hard to deal with, Paul was preparing Timothy for the fact that Timothy should expect to see these "critical times" in the 1st century congregations he was working with.

Currently, the Watchtower ties 1914 to the beginning of an era, or generation, that has seen greater wars than were ever seen previously in the history of the world. It is also supposed to be the beginning of a generation that has seen greater pestilence, famine, and earthquakes than any other previous generation in the history of the world.

Surely, there is nothing wrong with seeing this year as a time of great change in the world. If we ever needed proof that the world was lying in the power of the wicked one, then events that began in this particular year offered unassailable proof. Also, especially looking back, it seemed to be a sudden change to many people. European powers had exploited the wealth of many nations through violence to keep them as their own colonies. And the number of squabbles over who could exploit which nations had reached a boiling point. The Great European War starting in 1914 was supposed to be the final fight over how the exploitation of colonies around the world would be defined going forward. Lines would be drawn in the sand, and the "jungles". Who gets to exploit whom, would finally be defined and it would therefore be the war to end all wars.

But instead it just thrust upon mankind even more wars for greed, power, ego, persecution, murder, and theft. As one person on this forum commented, maybe WWI never ended.

So what could possibly be wrong with a doctrine that teaches that the final generation of mankind in this system of things should start in 1914?

Does the Bible say this is impossible? Does it go against any Biblical principles. Doesn't it fulfill prophecy?

What about Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, Revelation 12?

Doesn't common sense tell us that the end is getting closer all the time, and that a final generation must appear at some point? With all the global problems, terrors, and fears, isn't now the most likely time to see ourselves in that final generation?

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You seem to switch from inside the congregation, to outside the congregation.

As you said, Paul was talking about inside the Christian congregation, but then you seem to say that it is right for the GB and JW Org to use that scripture to mean 'in the world'. 

Quote "So what could possibly be wrong with a doctrine that teaches that the final generation of mankind in this system of things should start in 1914? "

Firstly, I thought the GB / Org was now going with 'overlapping generations'.

Secondly, What age would you want them to have been in 1914 ?

Because they would be 106 years old in 2020 if born in 1914. 

And in Psalms it says that a persons life is 70 years or 80 if they are strong. 

Seems a bit of a contradiction to me. I know some folks do live to over a hundred but how many, where are they, and do they have true knowledge of God ? 

Are you actually a Watchtower writer, a 'Talk' writer for Sundays, or a ghost writer for the GB ? 

Of course the End is getting nearer, that is obvious. But i don't think global problems have any play on it. God through Christ will KNOW EXACTLY when to ACT.  It does not matter how many of us humans die in the mean time. The resurrection is a promise from God. A resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous. 

Is your faith wavering ? Do you need to see a sign ? Are you looking for that elusive 'generation' ? 

Remember the words of Jesus "A wicked and adulterous generation keeps seeking a sign,

    Hello guest!
 but no sign will be given it ............... 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

With all the global problems, terrors, and fears, isn't now the most likely time to see ourselves in that final generation?

Did you forget to take your JWI pills today?  

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

As one person on this forum commented, maybe WWI never ended.

It did. It ended in 1919. But the time of trouble it ushered in has not ended—the last days of Matt 24:7 start off with a bang if we are to connect the two events—the first time that the entire world is concurrently at war. Some time ago I wrote a post about how one might collect “turning point 1914” quotes, just as some collect stamps or coins. There are a lot of them.

I’m close to doubling down on that comment I once made previously about Jehovah leading his people carrot and stick with the end always seen as immanent. One thing that influences me in doing this is seeing how optimistic ex-JWs are about humankind’s future, far in excess of the the average person’s optimism. For most of the latter, reading the Drudge Report is like reading the Book of Revelation. Not so with many apostates—they see nothing but blue skies ahead.

1 hour ago, 4Jah2me said:

Are you actually a Watchtower writer, a 'Talk' writer for Sundays, or a ghost writer for the GB ? 

Make him say “Shibboleth”

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1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Did you forget to take your JWI pills today?  

😉 There's a reason that I have no problem preaching that we are in the last days, and that so many people see the world with fear. We live in a time of excessive troubles and people see no way out. It is our privilege to offer comfort to those sighing and groaning over the situation in this system of things.

3 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

You seem to switch from inside the congregation, to outside the congregation.

To be clear, this is an opening position for a discussion that might answer a few of the questions in a more complete way than just the initial explanations here. But it's good to start with a position of agreement, and a position that acknowledges that the current view is not "crazy" or anti-Bible.

To that point, as I've stated before, I have no problem with the idea that we are in the "last days," and in some sense I would agree that we are also in the "last generation." And since I believe that Jesus began to rule as King invisibly in 33 C.E. and has been present with his followers ever since, then I also have no problem with preaching that Jesus is now enthroned as King, and is invisibly present. I also believe the times we live in are significant in that they are fulfilling all the statements about the "parousia" throughout the entire Christian Greek Scriptures. And, in any case, the answer is the same no matter when we believe that Christ's enthronement and presence began. It's the outworking of Jehovah's eternal purpose through his Kingdom as ruled by Christ Jesus, throughout the millennium and into the final perfection of the new heavens and new earth.

I would even say that, as far as Matthew 24 is concerned, Jehovah intended for us to look at this prophecy, ostensibly about Jerusalem only, and see in it a wider fulfillment that would guide us through future days as we look to the end of the entire worldly system of things -- not just the end of the Jewish system in 70 CE. 2 Tim 3:16 tells us that many scriptures can provide this value to us.

But, unless someone has some scriptural evidence that will correct and override the evidence I've seen so far, I will very likely continue to present the evidence much as I have in the past. However, I see an opportunity to get some more constructive criticism on these views from persons who have participated on this topic in the past, and perhaps some additional thoughts will be convincing. For example, a person like @TrueTomHarley has often surprised me with a take on some scriptures that provides a refreshing perspective. @b4ucuhear has clearly given a lot of thought to the chronology problem, and I hope to get him to share more of what he has learned. He has also asked questions that I have not responded to yet. @Anna has apparently tried to see things from the perspective I have presented, and she is not afraid to question when something doesn't quite appear correct. (Her questions have also pointed out 'holes in the theory' that I am still not 100 percent clear on myself.) @ComfortMyPeople seems to follow a lot of what I've posted on this topic, but rarely says much about it. I'm hoping for a bit more sometime soon. @Outta Here probably got tired of my reaction to my own "JWI pills," but he often said a lot more with fewer words than anyone else who responded to me. (He was the one who suggested that WWI never ended.) @Srecko Sostar and @Witness , although quite different, have also provided very thought-provoking perspectives of their own, and I rarely give their ideas the amount of time I ought to in my responses. And of course, there are others who, in their own way, might help me settle some of these questions and opinions in my own mind.

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34 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

😉 There's a reason that I have no problem preaching that we are in the last days, and that so many people see the world with fear. We live in a time of excessive troubles and people see no way out. It is our privilege to offer comfort to those sighing and groaning over the situation in this system of things.

I originally attached a smiley emoji to my question about JWI pills but then I took it out. I didn’t want Allen to think I was a sycophant any more than he already does.

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1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

@Annahas apparently tried to see things from the perspective I have presented, and she is not afraid to question when something doesn't quite appear correct. (Her questions have also pointed out 'holes in the theory' that I am still not 100 percent clear on myself

I've already forgotten what those holes were 😀. It's just that I like the sound of 1914, I do! I do! (jumping up and down enthusiastically). But I'm also wondering if it might be a date much similar to 1925 which we were so "positively sure about". There are also a lot of discrepancies that I have superficially looked at, but need to investigate more thoroughly. And I can't help a quote from a certain someone resonating in my head, that we got the idea of 1914, lock stock and barrel, from the 2nd day advertists....and also if a certain person can be believed, that several members of the GB started to question its veracity. I can see that 1914 is decisive to our faith not so much because of it being the last days, but because the appointment of the FDS hinges on it, and unless some alternative date, or at least period of time is found, then I do not see it going away for that reason. My main concern is the sticking to this doctrine for the sole purpose of the supposed appointment of the FDS, if indeed that is the purpose. The frustrating thing is that only time will tell, and if 1914 is wrong, then most of us will not even know this side of the system. Somehow, the more I get involved in reading this topic on here, the more at peace I am. I am not stressing about how near is "just around the corner" or how close is the "last of the last days". I feel like I am above all that now. I know it will come. I know as Christians we do our best in preaching and teaching, we do our best in being "no part of the world" we do our best following in Jesus' footsteps, in our life we pay attention to what God wants as opposed to many who don't question themselves with regard to God's wishes and just live their life with only regard for themselves. So: "plan ahead as if Armageddon won't come in your lifetime, but live your life as if it will come tomorrow". Best advice ever, (and I know I've mentioned this on here several times). 

So whoever's is dangling that carrot can stuff it right up their nose  😁 @TrueTomHarley (I don't think it's Jehovah obviously. On that note, are there scriptural examples of Jehovah dangling a carrot?)

 

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1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

@ComfortMyPeople seems to follow a lot of what I've posted on this topic, but rarely says much about it. I'm hoping for a bit more sometime soon.

Yes, I want to address this issue, but from another perspective. I get desperate and tired of talking about a date, how contrary to the spirit of the Bible and the warnings of Jesus!
While I prepare what I would like to say (remember that it is very difficult for me to express myself in English), I attach this link that although somewhat old, I think it is relevant.

 

 

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Who does this description fit? 

A carrot dangler is someone who promises something—and never comes through. When you try to collect on the promise, there is always some reason why they can't give it to you right then, though they tell you they will do it another time. But when "another time" comes along, that isn't a good time either, and so it goes, until you give up on that carrot, and then they start to dangle another carrot. 

Most of the time, whoever does this, wants something from you, but never gives anything back. However, in this case, (1914) I am thinking the person or persons just doesn't want to lose face...

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53 minutes ago, Anna said:

Most of the time, whoever does this, wants something from you, but never gives anything back. However, in this case, (1914) I am thinking the person or persons just doesn't want to lose face...

To the best of my knowledge and belief (please correct me if I am wrong ...) the WTB&TS has made hundreds of "mistakes", from "devil pus vaccinations", to continuously hyping Armageddon as "next week" .. and they have NEVER apologized for ANYTHING ...... EVER.

Of course, it's hard to be humble, when you are perfect in every way, and your credibility and contributed donations, which must be like showering under a waterfall (which I once did, in the Grand Canyon, many years ago ...) depend on the publishers having and keeping that impression.

 

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27 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

and your credibility and contributed donations, which must be like showering under a waterfall (which I once did, in the Grand Canyon, many years ago ...) depend on the publishers having and keeping that impression.

I agree with the credibility bit, however I do not think that ensuring contributions are the prime reason for keeping that credibility. I really believe it is a matter of pride, and the fear of what could happen to the faith of many people as a result of admitting that 1914 could be a mistake. If we were to think that the only reason is money, then this would be a fraudulent organization, which I don't think it is, and I dont think you do either.

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3 hours ago, Anna said:

I've already forgotten what those holes were

I'll make sure they come up.

3 hours ago, Anna said:

I can see that 1914 is decisive to our faith not so much because of it being the last days, but because the appointment of the FDS hinges on it

That comes across as too cynical. If there is an appointment of a special class to "feed his little sheep" why could it not just "pop up" inspirationally at any time or place that the need is great enough. (Times and places where the harvest is great but the workers are few.) Why can't all persons in history who would volunteer for such a ministry be considered as candidates in all Christian-like religions, and then the one group of teaching volunteers that appears to have the most truth be the one that lovers of truth associate with? Pre-2011, this was basically our doctrine. That wheat and weeds grew alongside each other through all the centuries from the first on down until today. Various teachers who taught a larger than usual measure of truth like Wycliffe, Tyndale, Waldenses, Arius, etc., were considered to be 'faithful and wise servants' who helped to coalesce a "wheat" class and keep it distinguished from a "weed" class. We should expect that there would have been many candidates vying to teach truth, and from the perspective of those who would be seeking out truth, they would grow as wheat.

3 hours ago, Anna said:

The frustrating thing is that only time will tell, and if 1914 is wrong, then most of us will not even know this side of the system. Somehow, the more I get involved in reading this topic on here, the more at peace I am.

Another perspective is that it is always correct to say it is just around the corner, because it is. It is always as close as our own lifespan. We are, in effect "harvested" as wheat or weeds at the end of our life, or at the 'harvest of the world' which happens at Christ's parousia. 1914 could be dead wrong, and the end could come tonight. But our entire life is an opportunity to continually keep our motivations in check, so that we are moved to do good for our brothers and sisters and neighbors and enemies, out of a love for God and fellow man. If we find ourselves motivated by following a group of men, or peer pressure, or to be seen by men, then we are not motivated out of a pure heart.

(1 Timothy 1:5) . . .Really, the objective of this instruction is love out of a clean heart and out of a good conscience and out of faith without hypocrisy.

But there is a difference in being motivated by a date, and being motivated by the fact that we think the end is so close because, for example, we know that the "generation" might be up in the very near future. There is nothing wrong with being motivated in part because we believe the end of all things is upon us. That would make us want to be ready at any time, every day. This is not the same thing as being (wrongly) motivated because we believe the "end," for example, going to occur within a few months of 2034, or within weeks of a declaration of "Peace and Security" or a "Hailstone message" or when we see that they finally have to put a member of the great crowd in the GB. These latter motivations are the same thing as saying "my master is delaying" and that is dangerous because it becomes a partial motivation for our actions. We will have the feeling that we need not "shape up" 100 percent, until we can see those future expectations begin to occur more clearly.

I think the proper motivation that can come out of a belief that the end can occur at any time, and that it might be very close, is probably what TTH is referring to with the carrot and stick proposition. Not that it is just meant as a tease to get more work out of us.

3 hours ago, Anna said:

I am not stressing about how near is "just around the corner" or how close is the "last of the last days". I feel like I am above all that now. I know it will come. I know as Christians we do our best in preaching and teaching, we do our best in being "no part of the world"

I believe that you have described what Jesus must have meant when he spoke of the truth as not being burdensome.

(Matthew 11:28-30) 28 Come to me, all you who are toiling and loaded down, and I will refresh you. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am mild-tempered and lowly in heart, and you will find refreshment for yourselves. 30 For my yoke is kindly, and my load is light.”

A constant "carrot and stick" with specific goal posts that are moved over and over again becomes a burden. We can never do enough, and we are then serving for specific measurable works.

The old days (1940's-1960's) had a "Circuit Servant" setting quotas for the congregation and then chiding the congregation for not meeting them. This was a sad state of affairs (that seems to have been directly copied from sales meetings for door-to-door merchandise peddlers and other types of salesmen). My uncle who was a Circuit Servant/Overseer was trained by the District Servant to find things the congregation can meet and find things the congregagion probably can't meet, with the overall goal of having the congregation "pushed" to help reach the national quotas found in the "Informant"/"Kingdom Ministry." This way there would be some items to commend, but there would always be the need to work harder. There wasn't that much of a carrot, except in the idea that the works were considered proof of righteousness. I think it was about once a month that the Congregation Servant pulled the huge number chart out from behind the curtain at the Service Meeting to go over how well we were meeting our quotas.

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1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

I think it was about once a month that the Congregation Servant pulled the huge number chart out from behind the curtain at the Service Meeting to go over how well we were meeting our quotas.

I started getting interested in the Truth about 1961, and I remember that huge number chart, as big as a 4x8 foot piece of plywood.  No one ever walked me up to it and explained it to me, and I figured it was "quotas", although at the time I did not even understand that.

 

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1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

I think the proper motivation that can come out of a belief that the end can occur at any time, and that it might be very close, is probably what TTH is referring to with the carrot and stick proposition. Not that it is just meant as a tease to get more work out of us.

Yes. I suppose it is.  A bit sloppy in my analogies, here. sorry.

Separately, I was just reading about the first voyage to America and Columbus’s crew’s expressed fear that maybe the earth was flat. 

A brilliant answer from the captain, spurring on the crew on by appealing to their Bible knowledge.

“In that case,” he said, 

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

“the end is just around the corner, because it is. It is always as close as our own lifespan.”

 

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7 hours ago, JW Insider said:

The old days (1940's-1960's) had a "Circuit Servant" setting quotas for the congregation and then chiding the congregation for not meeting them. This was a sad state of affairs

I believe how some sort of quotas and normative about hours still exists. Average system. 15 minutes of preaching for old people, active, inactive, (3 or) 6 month periods ...etc.

GB and Helpers speaking about "theocratic carrier" as opposite to "university education" that only worth for "worldly carrier" and "own pleasures" and " self-fulfillment that not helps other people" - and that is very, very wrong as they explained. Because after Armageddon, we will not need doctors and  lawyers. Now, this moment, as Morris III says, we need many skillful workers, plumbers, bricklayers, carpenters .... This means, tomorrow (and partially they are today)  all this hand skills will be over brain skills, because building program will be of main concern after Armageddon.

Perhaps, @Anna ,  teachings and instructions, as mentioned above, are "fraudulent". Does this makes Organization or some people in it "fraudulent" is on observer to say.

With this in mind we can also comment 1914 and all knowledge, teachings, instructions, beliefs and hopes around that period of time. 

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15 hours ago, ComfortMyPeople said:

I get desperate and tired of talking about a date, how contrary to the spirit of the Bible and the warnings of Jesus!
While I prepare what I would like to say (remember that it is very difficult for me to express myself in English), I attach this link that although somewhat old, I think it is relevant.

True, you said everything important in just that one post. We could even use those same points again, I hope. I know I get a little carried away with discussing the specific chronology systems we have followed in the past, and I hope to keep that to a minimum.

For myself, enough has been said about the old Babylonian chronology recently. So perhaps we leave out any arguments here (for or against) the supposed 2,520 years from the fall of Jerusalem to 1914. Although, if anyone wants to participate in such a defense or discussion, I'm happy to join.

Enough has been said about the Watch Tower's old chronology system that brought us supposed prophetic fulfillments for 1799, 1844, 1874, 1878, 1881, 1910, along with 1914/1915, too. And I don't think this should be a date-bashing exercise where we simply try to show up the potential embarrassment we might feel about predictions for 1918, 1925, or the mid-1970's.

Perhaps enough has been said about the two overlapping groups within the the generation that would see all these things occur.

Naturally, people can talk about anything they want, but for myself I had hoped to limit this to a general discussion of the Biblical counsel about chronology, and what Matthew 24 might mean, if not the generation from WWI.  Or even whether Revelation chapter 6 or chapter 12 can make any sense if it doesn't mean something related to 1914 or the final generation that would see the end.

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1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

Naturally, people can talk about anything they want, but for myself I had hoped to limit this to a general discussion of the Biblical counsel about chronology, and what Matthew 24 might mean, if not the generation from WWI.  Or even whether Revelation chapter 6 or chapter 12 can make any sense if it doesn't mean something related to 1914 or the final generation that would see the end.

When I say that I am tired of talking so much about dates, I do not mean that I do not find everything related to our background that has led to the birth, development and death of our numerical doctrines very interesting. It is part of the history of my religion, that is, it is part of the history of my life. And I am especially grateful to the explanations that  @JW Insider  has been happy to share with us. I have learned a lot from his knowledge, both from these spheres and from other plots in which he has exploded. Now that I think, I think he knows a lot of everything. I envy him.

Before anyone thinks that I am a kind of idolater or flatterer of JWI, I want to say that I often learn from the comments of children and anyone. Everyone can enrich our life and spirituality. With how much more reason who has had so many experiences and contacts within our organization.

Now, what I wanted to say with my comment that I would like to give this subject another approach (1914) is that I would like to share in the forum related portions of the Bible that address certain eschatological issues.

This doctrine (1914) I think that sooner or later it will fall like ripe fruit. In the meantime, I find myself like those Students of the Bible of the 20s who might have been very disillusioned with the Pyramid theory and its influence on our religion. At the moment these teachings were part of the official teaching. Less and less was mentioned, but it was still part of the doctrine. I suppose that these Christians would not make the Pyramid their great teaching focus, their great concern. They would not waste time showing interest in something they saw was nonsense. When Rutherford said that instead of being an instrument of Jehovah to teach, it was simply a funerary monument with demonic influence, they would not be disappointed, but relieved.

Well, it's the same with 1914

So, in the following posts, I would like to bring up approaches on Daniel 7 and 11, Revelation 6, 11 and 12 among others and may be enlightening about what we are discussing. I hope

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44 minutes ago, ComfortMyPeople said:

So, in the following posts, I would like to bring up approaches on Daniel 7 and 11, Revelation 6, 11 and 12 among others and may be enlightening about what we are discussing. I hope

I look forward to reading your thoughts on the matter ... as long as it is in short paragraphs, a decent type size, and does NOT mention Gog of Magog.

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OK, I can't help myself. Before I try to wean myself off the discussion of the "Old Watch Tower Chronology" that included 1799, 1874, 1878, I just wanted to point out a couple of things that might relate to something Anna just said about "saving face."

I don't think of the Organization as "fraudulent" because we all know that each one of us was "handed down" our chronology in a way so that we couldn't help but believe it. Same goes for how it was handed down to the GB, Helpers, and Writing Department. It tied 1914 in with Bible prophecy; it "proved" the Bible right; it "proved" that Witnesses (Bible Students) understood some esoteric prophecies of the Bible in a way that no one else could have "deciphered" without a measure of holy spirit. Even for members of the Writing Department and researchers to go back and look at what had actually been predicted, there was just too much "confirmation bias" to dismiss all of it. So even the old chronology was seen as a kind of preparatory framework that made it possible to accept 1914 as the End of the Gentile Times.

But here's where the heart of wisdom saving of face comes in. At first, 1914 was seen as a failure, and the new date for the End of the Gentile Times became 1915, then fulfillments were moved to 1918. But over time, it was seen that the Watch Tower could keep 1914, if it just changed the definition of the phrase "End of the Gentile Times." Nothing else predicted for 1914 had come true, except "a time of trouble." But the problem with the "time of trouble" prediction was that it had been long predicted that 1914 would be the END of that time of trouble, not the beginning. It's true that for the 10 years leading up to 1914, this idea had changed to a time of trouble STARTING in 1914 with several months of chaos, expected to reach into the year 1915, as all gentile kingdoms, governments and institutions lost their power. And they would then have to realize that the only kingdom to acknowledge was the one to be led, in 1914, by Jews in Palestine. So they couldn't really point to the Watch Tower's own predictions.

A quick definition of the original phrase "end of the gentile times" is seen here (quoting an older Zion's Watch Tower) at wol.jw.org:

*** w52 5/1 p. 260 par. 3 1914 a Marked Year! ***

    Hello guest!

“It has often been shown that this is the basis and key of the Times of the Gentiles (Luke 21:24), or the duration of Gentile rule over Jerusalem.

That same article shows what was done in order to save face. They couldn't use the Watchtower's own publications to prove that the WTS had been predicting this date for several decades, so they use a magazine that the 1952 Watchtower called "The New World" magazine. (That was not its name, even though Brother Anthony Morris uses that same name when he holds up the magazine at the 2018 Annual Meeting.) Neither Russell himself nor the Bible Students had made use of this magazine, probably because they were more familiar with the great differences between what this magazine said and what Russell himself and the Watch Tower had said. The magazine was dated August 20, 1914, --still early-- so the things that the magazine quoted correctly would merely make Russell and the "Millennial Dawners" look like false prophets. "Russell's prophecy" was quoted so incorrectly that even though they made it sound as if it was coming true, any Bible Student would know differently.

But I wanted to point out just how Brother Morris used the article in a way that showed his own "subtext" was about saving face.

It's very long and I'll try to end the post with it, chopping out some pieces to try to shorten it, but since it's so long I wanted to put a shorter idea of saving face in front of it. It's from the Watch Tower publications in 1924: (g24 2/13)

It is not at all true that our expectations concerning this date [1914] failed of realization. Others now admit for that date all that we ever claimed for it.

Of course, there were no citations for those others, but the one that gets the most repetition in the WT publications is the one that Morris held up at the Annual Meeting. Notice how he will turn this into a point about how only the Organization will actually be able to point out when something "IS IT!":

I think that all of you would agree how much we enjoyed the museum video and hearing Brother Fred Franz —his voice— talking about after the assassination of the archduke that the brothers said, ‘Aha! There it is! There it is! What we’ve been waiting for.’

Well, that’s very stirring, and then we would have critics saying, ‘Yeah, but you people had other expectations that were not realized,’ and etcetera, you know. But it’s amazing that even the world recognized that this was unique—1914. In fact, I’ve had this for many years. I want to show it to you. It’s The New World Magazine. And it was widely read at the time, and I guess about 1931 they went out of business. But here, “End of All Kingdoms in 1914 — ‘Millennial Dawners’ 25 Year Prophecy,” widely read; other newspapers covered it. They made comments here about:

“The terrific war outbreak in Europe has fulfilled an extraordinary prophecy. For a quarter of a century past, through preachers and through press, the ‘International Bible Students,’ best known as ‘Millennial Dawners,’ have been proclaiming to the world that the Day of Wrath prophesied in the Bible would dawn in 1914. ‘Look out for 1914!’ has been the cry of the hundreds of traveling evangelists.”

And I appreciate very much how the Yearbook in 1975 considering our modern-day history made this beautiful quote:

“Disappointments about going to heaven in 1914 really were very minor, compared with the great expectations realized in connection with that year.”

And it’s amazing. During the first six months of 1914, nothing happened. They were being ridiculed. And then the archduke is assassinated. This one was particularly released on August 30, 1914. Millions dying in World War I.

So it’s Brother Franz’s statement that really gave the idea for the theme here: “This Is It!”

The question arises, Will we have one or more times—in the future or even now—when we can say, “This is it” and have that same exciting fervor because of Bible prophecy?

Well, let’s begin with this one here. Find Daniel chapter 11. And we’re going to read here verse 40, or half of it:

“In the time of the end the king of the south (here at Daniel 11:40) will engage with him in a pushing.”

So the Governing Body has been prayerfully considering recent events. And we know that in 1991, the Soviet Union came to an end. So who is “the king of the north”?

Well, after prayerfully considering it and the matter of the pushing, we’re assuring you that what we see, after prayerfully considering it, is that it’s Russia and its allies—the king of the north. . . .

So this is it! At this point, we’re confident to share with you that Russia and its allies are the king of the north, and they’re engaged in this pushing. In fact, last month, they had the largest war games—Russia did—since the Soviet Union was in existence way back in the ’80’s. And they had their allies with them in the war game. So we’re confident this is it. This is the king of the north, and that’s what’s involved at this time with the pushing—locking horns with each other.

So is there going to be another time related to Bible prophecy where the faithful slave will be able to say to you, “This is it”? Well, one that we’re all very familiar with—. . . Whenever it is that they are saying, “Peace and security!” then sudden destruction is to be instantly on them,. . .

So here’s the question, and it’s understood that it would be asked, will the faithful slave be able to at a certain time say to the brotherhood: “This is it! “This is what we’ve been waiting for. This is the ‘peace and security’ prophecy”? . . .. But just consider (especially those of you here, many of you are aged, and you’ll remember, many of you who were in the truth at the time) what about the year 1986?

The United Nations was proclaiming prior to January of 1986 that, you know, ‘Get ready.’ They wanted the governments to put their arms down for at least a year, the International Year of Peace. Whoa!

See if you were in the truth back then, you were like, “OK.” . . .  Well, how did the faithful slave handle all that? So this honors Jehovah’s faithful slave serving at that time.

Here’s what was published in the ’85 Watchtower, October 1, page 18. Now, this is some months before that all started in 1986. Here’s what was stated:

“Christians cannot say in advance exactly when the great tribulation will strike. Period. Jehovah has not revealed ‘that day or the hour.’ Thus when, for example, the United Nations “declares the year 1986 an ‘International Year of Peace,’ Christians watch the event with interest. But they cannot say in advance whether this will prove to be the fulfillment of Paul’s words.”

Nonetheless, we kept on the watch, but God’s spirit was guiding his people, particularly the faithful slave. They were not only faithful, they were discreet. And they did not say: “This is it! “This is the fulfillment of 1 Thessalonians chapter 5.” No. But if you are still there, go back to 1 Thessalonians chapter 5—just something to keep in mind here—sometimes we’ll read verses 2 and 3 and leave out verse 4. He writes:

“But you, brothers, you are not in darkness, so that the day should overtake you as it would thieves.”

So thieves are doing their thievery when it’s dark, but we’re sons of light. So that’s not going to catch us, the faithful ones worshipping the true God, obedient to this earthly part of his organization. So the question comes up—If you go back to that quote from the 2004 Watchtower—‘Prophecies are only fully understood only after they are fulfilled.’ But we also said: ‘or are in the process of fulfillment.’

So will the faithful slave be able to say in the process of the fulfillment of this prophecy from 1 Thessalonians: “This is it! That’s what we’ve been waiting for”? We’ll have to wait and see.

So there’s a word of caution here we want to pass on to you because we’re all human. We must keep on the watch, but please, just don’t be gullible. You hear a world leader say something about peace. And then you start e-mailing or something else with a social network. “This is it!” Leave the channel to handle such matters. If the faithful slave is moved by God’s spirit to say that to the brotherhood, and that’s His will, fine. But please don’t be gullible. Stick with the way Jehovah wants this to operate, and he’ll bless your obedience.

Reading his words carefully it is clear that the Governing Body believe that they NEED to be able to say things in advance as a kind of proof that "the faithful slave is moved by God's spirit." They should be the ones to say it before any of the regular Witnesses might start emailing or using a social network.

The main point here is that the 1914 predictions, even though they turned out to be completely false, must still be "spun" as proof of Jehovah's spirit on the faithful and discreet slave. Even if we have to turn to a sensationalist, racist, secular magazine of the time that was more like "The National Enquirer," and even though it got most of it wrong, this can still be used as evidence of God's spirit:

*** w71 8/1 p. 468 pars. 6-7 Making Known God’s Prophetic Truths ***
But Jehovah’s witnesses did expect such things, and others acknowledged that they did. On August 30, 1914, the New York World said: “The terrific war outbreak in Europe has fulfilled an extraordinary prophecy. For a quarter of a century past, through preachers and through press, the ‘International Bible Students’ . . . have been proclaiming to the world that the Day of Wrath prophesied in the Bible would dawn in 1914. ‘Look out for 1914!’ has been the cry of the . . . evangelists.”
7 How could Jehovah’s witnesses have known so far in advance what world leaders themselves did not know? Only by God’s holy spirit making such prophetic truths known to them.

*** w73 7/1 p. 402 par. 5 Praise Jehovah with His People ***
This 2,520-year period began with the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple by the Babylonians in the late seventh century B.C.E. For example, Zion’s Watch Tower of March 1880 had declared: “‘The Times of the Gentiles’ extend to 1914, and the heavenly kingdom will not have full sway till then.” Only God by his holy spirit could have revealed this to those early Bible students so far in advance.

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I thought of another means by which I think the Watchtower shows that "saving face" is important. When 1914 "failed" Russell evidently made a big splash of facing the day on October 2 with a full-throated announcement to the Bethel family and traveling convention "delegates."  Russell said: THE GENTILE TIMES HAVE ENDED!

No one apparently thought to say anything about this until the 1920's when Rutherford published in the WT that something like this happened on October 1st. Then MacMillan wrote a paper preparing for the book, Faith on the March, claiming it happened on October 4th. Then the book changed it to October 2nd, and this is now the official date.

To me, this is an announcement that, as of now, even though we see that all the expectations did not come true, that they were now going to face this problem head on by claiming that it really was so: that it was not a mistake.

This doesn't quite match the evidence in Watchtower articles of the time that appear to start backpeddling on 1914, with claims that the Gentile Times ended in 1915. And then there was Rutherford's new teaching that the harvest had no longer been 1874 to 1914, but that it was now 1878 to 1918.

In 1918, when this failed again. Rutherford tried something that was very similar to what Russell had evidently done. He created a motto:

"THE WORLD HAS ENDED -- Millions Now Living Will Never Die!"

This again seemed like a way to say, yes the expectations failed, but let's double-down, kick in our heels, and claim, in 1918, that "THE WORLD HAS ENDED."

And the new time period 1878 to 1918 as a kind of "harvest" remained for many years in our publications. This teaching still remained even in the 1960's or beyond. An echo of it is seen even in this 1990 article:

*** w90 3/15 p. 14 par. 19 ‘The Faithful Slave’ and Its Governing Body ***
In its issue of November 1, 1944, The Watchtower stated: “In 1878, forty years before the Lord’s coming to the temple in 1918

[A 12/15/1966 WT article explained this incorrectly as a way to highlight supposed discernment in 1922, but the footnote in that same article proves the main article to be incorrect. Will discuss if any interest.]

But this 1878 date remained as prophetically significant for over 100 years before it was dropped. Why hang onto it for so long?

It's also fairly well-known that until 1943, the official Watchtower date for Christ's presence (parousia) was still 1874. The Watchtower held to this date for nearly 65 years. Long after hints and discussions had changed the emphasis to a possibility that Christ's presence could move to 1914 or 1918. (Rutherford for many years began stating that Christ's "presence" and "coming" was dated to 1918, but did not try to directly contradict Russell's 1874 date for the parousia.)

Similarly, for years the Watchtower taught the general idea that the "last days" had begun in 1799. Echoes of this 1799 teaching were still being mentioned in prophetic fulfillments related to Daniel's prophecies, even as they have been in the lifetimes of some of us here:

One curious explanation that could concern why we should no longer think of 1799 as related to the time of the end or 'last days' used, not the Watchtower's own former view, but a parallel view of others who had seen 1799 as an end time "millennial" date.

*** w67 4/15 p. 234 par. 20 Mankind’s Millennium Under God’s Kingdom—Why Literally So ***
the Holy Roman Empire, to 1799 C.E., when Pope Pius VI, already deposed by Napoleon Bonaparte, was taken as a prisoner from the Vatican on February 20, and deported to Valence, France, where he died on August 29, 1799. The trouble that followed upon the Roman Catholic Church was viewed as marking the “little time” during which Satan the Devil was to be loosed at the millennium’s end. (Rev. 20:1-3, 7, Dy) However, it is now 168 years since the year 1799. That is not a “little time” for the Devil to be loosed; and yet the troubles on the Roman Catholic Papacy are worsening. And now the destruction of Babylon the Great, of which the Papacy is the most powerful member, threatens that religious empire in the near future.

This was repeated again:

*** w89 9/1 p. 12 par. 6 Organizing Now for the Thousand Years to Come ***
Some Roman Catholics have claimed that Jesus Christ’s Thousand Year Reign ended in 1799 when French armies captured Rome and deposed the pope as its ruler, so that he was deported as a prisoner to France, where he died. The Catholic clergy have said that Satan and his demons were then released from “the bottomless pit,” or “the abyss,” to renew their deceptive work for “a little time.” (Revelation 20:1-3, Catholic Douay Version) If that were true, it would mean that the “little time” has already continued for 190 years, with no end in sight.

Notice that the first major defense against this view was that no one could call 168 years a "little time."

How does that square with our explanation of Revelation 12 where we start Satan's "short period of time" in 1914 and claim that this short period of time has already gone on for 106 years?

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20 hours ago, Anna said:

I agree with the credibility bit, however I do not think that ensuring contributions are the prime reason for keeping that credibility. I really believe it is a matter of pride, and the fear of what could happen to the faith of many people as a result of admitting that 1914 could be a mistake. If we were to think that the only reason is money, then this would be a fraudulent organization, which I don't think it is, and I dont think you do either.

@Anna Does fraud only involve money ? Can it involve faith ? Can it involve people's lives ? Can it involve truth ? 

Wasn't 1975, or the 'mid 70's' a big carrot ? 

And you spoke of the F&DS - 1914. Which F&DS did you mean ?

Did you mean ALL of the Anointed, or just those 8 men ? 

And PRIDE you mentioned. Doesn't that come before a fall ? 

And 'a fear of what could happen to the faith of many people as a result of admitting that 1914 could be a mistake. '

Wow, so keep telling lies. Build the JW Org on lies, just to keep the followers in. 

Anna, you just don't understand, how much that you do understand. It's like you write whilst in a trance and truth tells you what to write. You love the GB and Org so much, yet you tell the truth about them, which shows up what they are really like. 

@James Thomas Rook Jr. I say the same to you. You tell the truth about the GB and the Org, yet you stick with it. I think it was you that commented about Germany and Hitler. But it's as if the Org is Germany and the GB are Hitler, But still you serve . 

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10 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

@James Thomas Rook Jr. I say the same to you. You tell the truth about the GB and the Org, yet you stick with it. I think it was you that commented about Germany and Hitler. But it's as if the Org is Germany and the GB are Hitler, But still you serve . 

... place  keeper for reply after my nap ..... my eyelids are slamming shut.

 

OK...back.

I was only making the illustration about how things changed from the Kaiser Germany, to the Hitler Germany to give a generic example of how things change in one's surrounding environment over time.  I was NOT alluding to the WTB&TS, Jehovah's Witnesses, or the GB being anything like Nazi Germany, or Hitler.

I am very disappointed in what has happened in the "Truth" over the years, and do not try to defend what should not be defended, but that does not mean I am going to "jump ship".

Years ago there was a TV show called "Slattery's People", about a congressman's adventures and escapades  living and working in the swamp that is Congress, and the opening of each show a deep male voice said "It's not that Democracy is the best system of government, it's that the others are so much worse" ( or something to that effect).  That made a hell of an impression on me, and other than Richard Crenna playing the congresscritter, that's all I remember about it.

That's the attitude I have about Jehovah's Witnesses as practiced as ordered by the WTB&TS.

There is a LOT wrong ... but there is a LOT that is right

And besides, there will be clueless officers and crew on that ship to make you miserable ... but if you "jump ship", you better have a better place to go.

When you look at that "sea of humanity " .... that's only the top.

With all of its fantasys and foibles, being one of Jehovah's Witnesses is the best thing that ever happened to me ...and I appreciate that.

ANY OTHER WAY AND I WOULD BE DEAD OR IN PRISON.

I hope that gives you my perspective.

 

 

Slatterys People Intro.mp4

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SECTION 1. INTRODUCTION

POINT #1

Conversation this morning with a brother from my congregation. (A = me, B = brother)

  • B: The Governing Body is guided by the spirit of God. All it teaches us is what Jehovah makes them see or understand.
  • A: So, how do we change from saying one thing about the 1914 generation, to a totally different one, and soon in yet another. Does Jehovah transmit errors?

POINT #2

Conversation that I’ve had with a brother with decades serving in Bethel, (A = me, B = brother):

  • A: The Governing Body makes extended applications of Scripture without notifying what it is doing, to the extent that we forget the original meaning.
  • B: Also, Paul and others, when quoting from the OT introduced new approaches that were not in the original intention of the writer.
  • A: True, but the big difference is that they were inspired, but the GB is not.

POINT #3

This week's conversation with a veteran brother from my congregation. (A = me, B = brother)

  • B: The "disgusting thing in the holy place" was that religions embraced the League of Nations in 1919
  • A: You did not remember, but in 1999 this approach was modified, and it was explained that this event is still future, and we do not know exactly how it will be.

POINT #4

"Don't talk about my mother", says one spouse to the other during an argument. Touching the mother is a very serious matter. For many, the Organization is like a mother. Any criticism or negative observation is considered the result of lack of faith, little spirituality or influence of apostates.

CONCLUSION

About POINT # 1. As we consider the GB not inspired or infallible, but guided by the holy spirit, we are reluctant to admit doctrinal errors on your part. We call them adjustments, progress in understanding or with other euphemisms. Why have we this view? Do we remember having read in one of our publications the term: rectification, error, we were wrong, we apologize for ...?

About POINT # 2. We give the GB an authority similar to the apostles. If these apparently "twisted" the OT to achieve a good end (to prove that Jesus was the Messiah for example), why the GB cannot take some licenses with the Scriptures so that we can preach more, so that we respect the established order, so that we promote the unity, or so that we continue to have a sense of urgency.

On the way in which Christian writers used the OT very flexibly, until they seemed to distort the original meaning, the book “Handbook on the New Testament Use of the Old Testament: Exegesis and Interpretation”, by Gregory K. Beale is very enlightening.

In relation to POINT #3 it often happens that many doctrines that we have learned for decades and then have proven to be inadequate, we have studied many times in the obsolete format, to the extent that this comes to mind before the new one. In addition, with so many changes, it is sometimes difficult for us to remember the "right thing" (yeast, generation ...)

About POINT #4. I like this moral of the story "the new clothes of the emperor"

·        It is often used to describe a situation in which people are afraid to criticize something because everyone else seems to think it is good or important. It is the title of a fairy tale by Hans Christian Andersen about an emperor who pays a lot of money for some new magical clothes that only wise people can see. The clothes don't really exist, but the emperor doesn't admit that he can't see her, because he doesn't want to look stupid. 

    Hello guest!

 

APOCALYPTIC GENDER’S INTERPRETATION SCHOOLS

Daniel, especially in the OT, and logically Revelation, are known as apocalyptic because they share a style characterized, among others, by these common elements:

  • Symbology before literal language.
  • Visions
  • Encrypted language
  • Clear temporary allusion to the "end times"

Well, to address the correct exegesis or study of these books, there are the so-called schools or interpretation approaches, mainly from the book of Revelation:

  • PRETERIST: the writer describes what was happening at that time or even in the past. He preferred a cryptic language to avoid the persecution of Rome. There is no prophecy but a description of the past.
  • HISTORICIST: It is believed that the revelation is about the history of the Church from the first to the last coming of Christ.
  • IDEALIST: Revelation, instead of talking about the future, contains teachings about the situation of the Church in the world.
  • FUTURIST: the content of the book will be fulfilled at the end of time.
  • And there are other variants.

With all of the above, I would like to reach this conclusion: it is difficult to arrive at a correct understanding of that part of Scripture. If the GB claims to have the "key", it is interesting what the mysterious book itself says:

  • (Revelation 5: 2-4). . And I saw a strong angel proclaim loudly: "Who is worthy to open the scroll and break its seals?" 3 But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or look into it. 4. I gave way to a great deal of weeping because no one was found worthy to open the scroll or to look into it.
     

 But, finally, if Jehovah inspired that content, it would be more than simply filling the pages of His Book. So, at least something, a part, of the meaning of the book should be useful to us, but due to the POINTS # 1 to # 4 mentioned above, we, the JW, have a special difficulty in understanding apocalyptic literature.

(to be continued…)

 

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13 hours ago, ComfortMyPeople said:

So, at least something, a part, of the meaning of the book should be useful to us, but due to the POINTS # 1 to # 4 mentioned above, we, the JW, have a special difficulty in understanding apocalyptic literature.

In all discussions about how inspired of Holy Spirit different ones are, I have not seen the verse (nor have I thought to bring it up myself) Acts 5:32

And we are witnesses of these matters, and so is the holy spirit, which God has given to those obeying him as ruler.”

It is simply left out of the equation, and it probably shouldn’t be. “Obey God as ruler” and one may expect a measure of Holy Spirit. Drag one’s feet on obeying him and that will not be so. To my mind, the GB do obey him as ruler—they do their best.

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@TrueTomHarley Oh you are good for a laugh :) Quote " To my mind, the GB do obey him as ruler "

You are so funny.  You are also so blind.

You cannot see that your GB have simply followed on from past lies and mistakes. You cannot see that your GB use dishonest lawyers in courts. You cannot see that your GB are presumptuous in saying that they are the F&DS.  You cannot see that your GB are exalting themselves by saying only they, those 8 men, are the F&DS and that the true Anointed should not even contact one another around this Earth, and should not study God's word together. 

And then the GB admit to not being inspired by God's Holy spirit. And it seems to have been proven that GB members are not chosen by God's Holy spirit. Homosexual GB members ? GB members that have written study books, but then been D/fed ?  

And the GB are withholding information from the Courts / Authorities concerning Child Sexual Abuse. Information which could help victims to gain peace and closure. Giving that information would show the willingness for justice, mercy, love, and to 'Serve God as ruler rather than men'. 

But NO. Your GB Govern / Rule over / Dictate to, the Watchtower Soc' and JW Org and 8.5 million sheep.  Making up the rules, misusing scriptures, misleading million. Well it's working Tom, it's misleading you. 

 

@James Thomas Rook Jr.  Thank you for your perspective.

Quote " And besides, there will be clueless officers and crew on that ship to make you miserable ... but if you "jump ship", you better have a better place to go. "

It seems to me that JWs are brainwashed into thinking that when a person leaves the JW Org, that person will go 'back into the wicked world'. JWs are surely not that naive as to believe that every ex-JW suddenly becomes a 'wicked person' doing all manner of wicked deeds.  It's what your GB / Elders et al want you to believe of course.  But it isn't so.

There is an in between. There is a 'safe harbour'. Not on the JW ship, but not in that murky water either. 

However Mr Rook, your ship is sinking, the murky water is getting in, the JW ship, as you know, is no longer clean. And why would I wish to be part of what is unclean ? 

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33 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

However Mr Rook, your ship is sinking, the murky water is getting in, the JW ship, as you know, is no longer clean. And why would I wish to be part of what is unclean ? 

Your premise is faulty.

The problem is NOT that the "organization is "unclean" ... the problem is that it is plagued by the exact same things that plague ALL organized religion.

It is crystal clear that God has a Congregation ... unless you can show me one NOT plagued by all things common to man .. you have no case to make.

You have made many good and true, and valuable points (mostly). But you have not made the case until you have a better solution.

The question for YOU is ..... same as Noah's neighbors were asked by Noah, as they stood around, watching Noah and his family build a huge Ark in his suburban driveway, and they asked him what he was building.

He replied , "How long can you tread water, ha ha ha?"

 

 

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I'll repeat what I said above.

 There is an in between. There is a 'safe harbour'. Not on the JW ship, but not in that murky water either. 

Um what happened, in your eyes, to the thoughts :-

To 'keep oneself without spot from the world'.   

To, 'first clean the inside of the dish or bowl, then the outside will also be clean'.

And for the true Anointed

    Hello guest!

You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

And you say :-

The problem is NOT that the "organization is "unclean" ... the problem is that it is plagued by the exact same things that plague ALL organized religion.

But it seems God said IT SHOULD NOT BE. 

 

 

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21 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

    Hello guest!

You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

 DUH !

It is very easy to be able to tell who can fulfill the scripture about being perfect, as your Heavenly Father is perfect ......they do not die.

If you can still require that from ANYONE, 500 years from now, I will consider your points to be valid.

My guess you will be lying on your back, with your arms folded across your chest, and sucking dirt, as will everybody else.alive today.

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3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

we are witnesses of these matters, and so is the holy spirit,

In Act 5 we see how apostles were busy with Jesus' teaching and because of that they fall under persecution. As a tool for defending themselves they said:

29 Peter and the other apostles replied: “We must obey God rather than human beings! 30 The God of our ancestors raised Jesus from the dead—whom you killed by hanging him on a cross. 31 God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might bring Israel to repentance and forgive their sins. 32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”

They claim how they witnessed of these two things:

1) Jesus raised from dead

2) Jesus was exalted to God' own right hand

Peter and apostles claimed how they are witnesses of this two things. No one of them saw by own eyes Jesus' resurrection. And two of apostles didn't recognize resurrected Jesus when he appeared to them ("they were kept from recognizing him" - verse said, Luke 24).....   When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them. Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight. 

After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was taken up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God - Mark 16

He began to be parted from them, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.” - Act 1:9

As we see from this Bible verse, cloud made impossible for apostles to see how he sat down.

Important questions are: What sort of witnesses were apostles? To what events they witnessed? 

They saw resurrected Jesus but not recognized him and they didn't saw nothing what was happened in the Heaven about his sitting down. Now, we have their claim how holy spirit is also witness to this two events. And they call for HS, in front their persecutors, as some sort of undeniable proof to their claims. Perhaps they expected how persecutors will be afraid to go against HS and stop to persecuted them. But that didn't happened. 

I see here these subject: Apostles calling for HS because they personally didn't saw nothing of spoken claims. But it seems how they want to tell us, how individuals who received (will receive in a close of far future) HS will be in position to see invisible things. But to receive HS you have to Obey. Apostles send message to persecutors how then are not Obeying HS and as result they can't receive HS and as next result they can't see or to be witnesses of this two events.  

Did apostles received HS to see invisible things? How it came about that HS didn't open their eyes to recognize Jesus at first sight? They didn't been inspired at that moment? But after they were? It seems how these Bible verses talking about importance to be under influence of HS, or to be inspired, as precondition to be able to see, and understand, what is going on.

Now we came again to one of crucial questions. Is it possible to be inspired by HS and as such, in that condition of mind, hearth, spirituality, to be Witness for things not heard and not seen in literal sense? Because only if we are inspired we See things, invisible. Not only invisible because they are in some other place and time in Universum. But also to see invisible things here on Earth, in the Bible, in WT Society, JW congregation and in society as whole? 

To what things JW's witnessing today? And what sort of witnesses they are? Are they merely witnesses of their own faith, beliefs? Are they witnesses to "signs"? But as was already said and as it is written in the Bible looking or searching for "signs" are not what Jesus recommended. 

Of what importance then is, to be witness of 1914 events? or other events in WT history and her life as Mother Organization? 

 

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1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Peter and apostles claimed how they are witnesses of this two things. No one of them saw by own eyes Jesus' resurrection. And two of apostles didn't recognize resurrected Jesus when he appeared to them

Interesting points, in that it made them witnesses of what they saw through the "eyes" of their faith. Faith is assured expectation of things not seen. They saw the resurrected Jesus, but he was in a different state, "materialized." In time, they all had faith that this was not a demon or just any angel materializing as Jesus, but Jesus himself, the one they had previously witnessed in person. (The resurrected Jesus restored as an even more powerful spirit being, but materialized.) Up to 500 persons saw him in this state. And through the outpouring of the holy spirit at Pentecost they realized what they were receiving, in faith, that this was what Jesus had promised after he would sit down at the right hand of the Father's heavenly throne. As a group, however, they witnessed this, too. Stephen had a vision of Jesus standing at God's right hand. (Makes no difference if you are sitting or standing when you are at the right hand of the throne of majesty.)

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On 12/28/2019 at 9:46 PM, 4Jah2me said:

God through Christ will KNOW EXACTLY when to ACT.  It

True, but Jesus said: “Notice the fig tree and all the other trees.  When they are budding, you see it for yourselves and know that now the summer is near." 

When I watch world events I compare it to what I have read in the bible.  It helps me to understand what is going on. This is why I agree with the GB.  It is not worship of them which allows me to agree with them -  it is knowledge of the realities around me.   I see the big blossoms opening up everywhere! 

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@JW Insider & @Srecko Sostar This helps me to have faith that the True Anointed will get true direction from God through Christ, by Holy Spirit. 

Because we live in such an important time period and because there is supposed to be a large in gathering before Judgement time, there needs to be real spiritual upbuilding for the Anointed Remnant, so that the direction they give will be positive enough to draw people to God. Hence my feelings that there is quite a long time before that Judgement time.  The time period is important but that doesn't mean in is very short. I honestly feel that God or Christ will make much more known to those they chose as worthy of being the F&DS. 

11 minutes ago, Arauna said:

True, but Jesus said: “Notice the fig tree and all the other trees.  When they are budding, you see it for yourselves and know that now the summer is near." 

When I watch world events I compare it to what I have read in the bible.  It helps me to understand what is going on. This is why I agree with the GB.  It is not worship of them which allows me to agree with them -  it is knowledge of the realities around me.   I see the big blossoms opening up everywhere! 

Whilst i agree with you, the JW Org predicted 1975 or mid 70's. The Org has been talking about world conditions since JWs began. But it could still continue for ten or more years. In my opinion, it is not world conditions that are important, it is God's own reasons for His timing. God could keep it 'simmering ' for another 100 years if He so wished. 

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Then people have not understood the parable of the ten virgins

Matthew 25:13

And be watchful for the day.

Luke 21:36

If people are looking for supernatural events, they live in the wrong planet. Being alert and watchful were meant for human conditions.

The end of days was proclaimed by Christ in AD33. He personally made that proclamation. Therefore, it doesn’t need to be repeated by Christ. It doesn’t matter if people in his day were witnesses to a supernatural event. No one in this lifetime is a witness to that event.

It is by faith that we accept those events to be true, just like faith gave a person insight to understand the end of the gentile times in 1914 way before the event of WW1 happened.

However, WW1 is not the only indicator to 1914. Other human events that lead to that end of the gentiles is also recorded within history and the reason why it ended that gentile time.

If people are skeptical and want to see supernatural events and not trust in Christ words and God, they are not genuine Christians, and no amount of other understanding will change that. The supernatural events now work in those that have been given the insight of mysteries. A genuine witness should understand that.

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19 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

The Org has been talking about world conditions since JWs began.

Well, world conditions have changed considerably after WW1...... weapons development, population explosion, damage to the earth /biosphere -  just to name 3 items on a long list.

 

22 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

could still continue for ten or more years.

True, but it is as though the stage is set for people to kill each other (in most countries) - brother against brother.  Violence and hate is brewing  and UN will step in with surveillance and new moral laws.  So it could take 10 years or more  BUT it could happen sooner..... depending on the resistance to UN plans and UN determination to push their plans through to create peace and security. - their way. Agenda 2030 must be completed by 2030. By 2022 they want a world federal currency. 

The glaziers on Himmalayas is melting, Maldives going under water, fire hazards everywhere, forests destroyed with rare species of plants and animals, desertification, etc.  - these conditions will create more food and water shortages, national disasters, etc which could speed up unrest and the need for UN intervention.  

World events are volatile and unpredictable bringing critical times. While we watch the intensity of the birth pains increasing - we know the birth is eminent but we do not know the date....However ,  we can recognize what is going on. 

41 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

there needs to be real spiritual upbuilding for the Anointed Remnant, so that the direction they give will be positive enough to draw people to God

Jesus had the approval of God and was anointed by Jehovah and the world hated him.  Why would we expect  imperfect men be more successful than Jesus? 

 

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4 hours ago, Arauna said:

True, but Jesus said: “Notice the fig tree and all the other trees.  When they are budding, you see it for yourselves and know that now the summer is near." 

Thanks for this reminder @Arauna

When I mentioned early in this topic that @Anna had brought up a couple of points/questions that I hadn't really been able to consider fully, this was one of them. It's easy to see what C.T.Russell was thinking when he said that wars, earthquakes and famine and pestilence, etc., were NOT part of the sign, because as he said, Jesus was here just telling us the common experience of mankind for the last 18 centuries.

But it is obvious that the fig tree appears to refer to some kind of sign that people can see is in advance of a season. This appears to counter the idea of Jesus and Paul that the times and seasons are none of our concern, not even the angels, but only the Father.

The current doctrine may have several apparent contradictions with scripture, but I don't want to just jump over to another interpretation that also has contradictions.

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On 12/28/2019 at 7:58 PM, JW Insider said:
On 12/28/2019 at 5:17 PM, Anna said:

I can see that 1914 is decisive to our faith not so much because of it being the last days, but because the appointment of the FDS hinges on it

That comes across as too cynical. If there is an appointment of a special class to "feed his little sheep" why could it not just "pop up" inspirationally at any time or place that the need is great enough.

I am thinking the same, but I don't think they see it that way. It seems that specific dates are very important to them....

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13 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Interesting points, in that it made them witnesses of what they saw through the "eyes" of their faith. Faith is assured expectation of things not seen. They saw the resurrected Jesus, but he was in a different state, "materialized." In time, they all had faith that this was not a demon or just any angel materializing as Jesus, but Jesus himself, the one they had previously witnessed in person. Up to 500 persons saw him in this state. And through the outpouring of the holy spirit at Pentecost they realized what they were receiving, in faith, that this was what Jesus had promised after he would sit down at the right hand of the Father's heavenly throne. As a group, however, they witnessed this, too. Stephen had a vision of Jesus standing at God's right hand. (Makes no difference if you are sitting or standing when you are at the right hand of the throne of majesty.)

We raised issue on some other level. They witnessed to their faith and hope, and to some literal manifestations. But precisely said, they not witnessed in a way that we consider as word "witness" primatly means. It would be as someone today gave testimony as witness on Court about something, and he say to Judge: "I didn't saw what happened but I believe i know what happened because this was promised to me that will happen. And things that i saw are exactly that."   

Religious people today depending on testimonies made by people in the past who not witnessed to some events, to some they did. Also, people today put trust on people who wrote about this things and also to translators. And finally, people put their trust on spiritual mediators aka church leaders, who are strong force that drive faith and hope of people in particular direction. 

12 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Therefore, it doesn’t need to be repeated by Christ. It doesn’t matter if people in his day were witnesses to a supernatural event. No one in this lifetime is a witness to that event.

People in Jesus' days was under promise and expectations that day will SEE supernatural events as Proof how individual who doing this is Send By God. I think how WT Society take this position in their explanations. So, miracles are of important things that surrounding life and faith of people in Israel from the very beginning. Without miracles, many of events described in Bible, would never happened and history will be different and present will be different. No matter did such miracles really happened or not. Christian faith, before and today, would be in some other format without miracles. Christians in 1 century was totally in miracles of all kind. Today, things are different. 

12 hours ago, César Chávez said:

It is by faith that we accept those events to be true, just like faith gave a person insight to understand the end of the gentile times in 1914 way before the event of WW1 happened.

faith gave a person insight to understand the end of the gentile times in 1914 way before the event of WW1 happened.

If i understand what i read before about this correctly, faith he had (Russell) gave him wrong insight and understanding. Other people' faiths, around Russell, also accepted same things that made them to be in wrong expectations too.

It seems how "faith" (own or other' people) is not trustful. It is not what makes things come true. Faith of man, who is blind, who believe he will see, not makes him cured of blindness because of mere faith. Someone who has power to do miracle, have to cure him from blindness. Than, this man' faith have value and justification. Otherwise is superstition, empty hope. Faith (to believe something) not need knowledge. Because knowledge would say, miracles are not possible. Do we have some "special" knowledge? WT Society teaches how 1 century miracles are not possible today. 

Russell had some "special" knowledge and some "special "faith". And that ended in past. His legal heirs wants to make all that as progress on a way to "ultimate knowledge and faith".  

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@Srecko Sostar Fantastic comment. You are very deep thinking. But can you explain the last paragraph please. 

Indeed the first century Christians, and even the Jews around at that time, were given lots of 'signs' in ways of miracles, curing all sorts of disease, turning water into wine, producing food enough for 10.000 people or more (I think they only counted the men), raising the dead et al.  It was as much seen by the physical eye as it was faith.  But now it seems, no one expects miracles.. No one but me maybe. 

I loved the bit about Russell having 'faith'. gave him wrong insight and understanding. Other people' faiths, around Russell, also accepted same things that made them to be in wrong expectations too.

So it is today it seems with the GB and JWs. 

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@Outta Here   Quote " And the understanding we have now, as proclaimed by the GB of Jehovah's Witnesses and supported by their application of Scripture, would appear to me to bear this out."

More GB worshipping at it's best :) The blind leading the blind and wow, that is a massive pit they've fallen into. 

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17 hours ago, César Chávez said:

It is by faith that we accept those events to be true, just like faith gave a person insight to understand the end of the gentile times in 1914 way before the event of WW1 happened.

Russell was an excellent student of the Bible. He knew it well. He wrote about the Bible very capably. He preached it. He clearly had insights into many of its teachings and principles. He could use scripture to explain scripture. He could show excellent rational insight along with spiritual insight. He showed faith and he showed discretion and wisdom. And he was one of the most interesting men of his time, because was very aware of the world around him and used this knowledge to help explain some of these insights, but usually without getting too bogged down in the secular, political or scientific arguments of the day.

But, faith or no faith, he had absolutely no insight or understanding about the end of the gentile times. He made no prediction about a world war. He made absolutely no prediction about 1914 that came true. He made absolutely no prediction about the gentile times that came true.

Russell thought the "end of the gentile times" was the equivalent of the FULL ESTABLISHMENT of a Jewish government in PALESTINE, and the FINAL END of the United States government and economy, the FINAL END of the United Kingdom's government and economy, the FINAL END of the Turkish government and economy, the FINAL END of the Chinese, Japanese, Russian, German, French, Norwegian, and Mexican governments and economies, too. ALL HUMAN GOVERNMENTS would fall in 1914/1915 and it would be the FULL establishment of a divinely backed Jewish government in Jerusalem, with the re-establishment of Israel in Palestine.

We can only pretend that he got something right, because he predicted that the chaos of the complete fall of all these non-Jewish governments, along with the rise of Israel in Palestine, would result in a time of trouble that would END in 1914, and then around 1904, he changed it to BEGIN in 1914, and indicated that this chaos in the vacuum of any human political institutions would end in a matter of months after 1914, most likely ending in 1915.

Which part of his "insight" or "understanding" of this matter came true? Which part was correct?

It's true he started some backpeddling on his understanding in 1904 (mentioned above), then 1910, then 1913. That's because his view included some expectations that he considered unlikely in view of the time left. 

Russell didn't think Jesus' invisible presence would start in 1914. Russell didn't think that Jesus' kingship would start in 1914. Russell didn't think a great battle would be fought between Jesus and Satan in 1914. There's NOTHING that we NOW think happened around 1914, that Russell predicted, and he NEVER thought that any of those things (that we now believe about 1914) had happened even after he saw the events of 1914 for himself.

So where does anyone get the idea that Russell got even one thing right about 1914 prior to 1914?

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19 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

But it could still continue for ten or more years.

Several times I have heard this expression from you. I like to think that it could be ten or less years. It helps to keep on the watch.

On 12/30/2019 at 7:47 AM, TrueTomHarley said:

“And we are witnesses of these matters, and so is the holy spirit, which God has given to those obeying him as ruler.”

I even think that it is today’s emphasis on “critical thinking” that serves to downplay the above verse—as though obedience has nothing whatsoever to do with it—as though it is all a head matter that we ought to be able to figure out.

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3 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

But can you explain the last paragraph please.

Do you mean this?

5 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Russell had some "special" knowledge and some "special "faith". And that ended in past. His legal heirs wants to make all that as progress on a way to "ultimate knowledge and faith". 

"Special knowledge", in sense it was different than that of main Christendom (Catholic church) but also similar or sourced in other smaller religious groups. And "special faith", in sense he want to believe he found "new and better" or even as he had been chosen for "mission". I wasn't studied about this things as i should. @JW Insider handled with more materials (and have better memory than me :))) to bring out so much or enough quotes (WT publications) to support discussion, to give corrective perception on issues like this, and to introduce reader into unknown possibility, reality.

WT Society and today successors of religious inheritance (all doctrines and methodologies used to find "the truth") aka GB carry a sort of "burden" of that past. Perhaps they are somehow "forced" to stay on  such track, path of the past, don' know. If they are aware of fact  how past doctrines are not bringing to the future but contrary, holds them in ambys of past spiritual wrongs, because they are afraid of making clear and painful cuts, it is understandable, but also makes whole situation hopeless. It can be, based on experience we see till today, how easiest way to escape from spiritual "errors" they found in idea of "progressive understanding". According to this, Bible Truth never changed, but human (GB) understanding does. To this idea one thing also remain not understandable: what is Bible truth? Because no one is able to say - where we are now standing, on what point in this progress?! How much steps exists from point A to B in this progressive understanding? Because they made a claims how human living at close end of this system they assured themselves, as many time before, how this  "present truth" must be good enough and supported by God. With this attitude you are on a good way to be deceived and self deceived.

 

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7 hours ago, Anna said:

I am thinking the same, but I don't think they see it that way. It seems that specific dates are very important to them....

You are saying that they (GB) hang on to 1914 because if they get rid of it, they relinquish a Biblical base of authority. It's "nice" to have a Bible passage that talks about you and it's even "nicer" when that particular passage mentions a measure of authority and trust in advance of even greater authority and trust.

I'm just saying that the reason they see the passage as speaking about themselves is because of 1914 first. Based on the importance given to that date, they expect to see certain actions that Jesus must have taken, or that it would seem reasonable for him to take. So it's kind of backwards to imply that they hang on to the date because of the authority. They hang onto the authority because of the date.

But I'm also saying that this authority would be there anyway. Sure, they lose a little if they give "FDS" back to all the anointed, or even if they spread that authority around to include all the elders, or all Witnesses who support [feed] other Witnesses in any way, materially or spiritually or emotionally. (Recall that the verse once meant the anointed feeding the anointed, because the domestics were the anointed, too.)

Common sense tells us that the purpose of elders in a congregation is to provide teaching and examples to follow and good judgment when it comes to dealing with difficult matters that might arise. We follow their lead. We listen. We copy their example. They persuade us to follow with good teaching and good examples.

How much more would we think that the ones we consider qualified as elders over the global congregation would be worthy of even more respect. And we would be just as willing or more to follow their lead, listen, copy their example, etc.

This is why it really came as no surprise to many Witnesses that the GB took upon themselves the entire role they interpreted to be the role of the FDS. To most Witnesses, the FDS always meant the GB anyway. The GB already represented the rest of the anointed in general, who had no say anyway. It was the GB, as head of the departments for Writing, Teaching, Service, Correspondence, etc., who were already considered the top of the "Bethel" headquarters hierarchy. It didn't matter if a certain thing was written by a member of the "other sheep," it was still considered to be under their direction. I actually asked a pioneer sister at the time if she had heard about the new GB=FDS doctrine right after that point from the Annual Meeting was announced on the website. She honestly thought that this was nothing new.

In other words, something like this same respect for their teaching and example would have happened naturally as a matter of course. It has probably happened in every religion known to man. There have even been other religions that speak of their leadership councils as governing bodies. The level of agreement by the "rank-and-file" Witnesses (as Anthony Morriss III calls us) is just like other religions: a function of the emphasis given on the importance of this level of agreement.

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4 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I even think that it is today’s emphasis on “critical thinking” that serves to downplay the above verse—as though obedience has nothing whatsoever to do with it—as though it is all a head matter that we ought to be able to figure out.

Of course, there's also an implication throughout the context of Acts, that God does not give that holy spirit to those who obey men. That's one of the reasons for this very topic of 1914, as uncomfortable as it might seem to even question it.

Of course, obeying God as ruler and not men, doesn't preclude us from "obeying" our congregation elders (Heb 13:17). But there is no contradiction here, because the word used for the word obey here has a range of meaning. And that range of meaning is pinned down in the very context of Hebrews 13 and elsewhere. 

In fact, we might as well deal with it because there will be some who think it is "disobedient" to even consider the questions about 1914. It's the same as questioning God's arrangement, some say. Just like questioning 1925, or the hourly quotas for publishers and pioneers, would have been the same as 'questioning the Lord himself' in Rutherford's day.

When Hebrews 13 says "Be obedient to those taking the lead among you" it's obvious that the term "among you" referred to congregation overseers/elders. We extend this to mean the elders who preside in a "headquarters" arrangement from the various Branches, especially the Governing Body residing in the United States Branch. But the word here does not mean "obey" in the sense of "you must obey God as ruler." In Acts 5:29 that term includes the idea of submission to a ruler or magistrate (i.e., God).

The definition of "obey" in the context of Hebrews 13:17 is perfectly summed up in this verse that doesn't even use the word obey:

(Hebrews 13:7) . . .Remember those who are taking the lead among you, who have spoken the word of God to you, and as you contemplate how their conduct turns out, imitate their faith.

The root meaning of the term is actually "persuade." Hebrews 13 uses the verb "peitho" here, and Peitho was the goddess of persuasion. That's actually the first meaning in Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

1. Peitho, proper name of a goddess, literally, Persuasion; Latin Suada or Suadela.
2. persuasive power, persuasion: 1 Corinthians 2:4 ἐν πειθοι — accusative to certain inferior authorities.

Strong's NT Definition is:

πείθω peíthō, pi'-tho; a primary verb; to convince (by argument, true or false); by analogy, to pacify or conciliate (by other fair means); reflexively or passively, to assent (to evidence or authority), to rely (by inward certainty):—agree, assure, believe, have confidence, be (wax) conflent, make friend, obey, persuade, trust, yield.

Note that "obey" hardly makes the list.

Even the NWT doesn't say in Hebrews 6:9 that "in your case we are obedient to bettr things." Instead it says:

(Hebrews 6:9) 9 But in your case, beloved ones, we are convinced of better things. . .

In the very verse after Hebrews 13:17, the word "trust" is used, in these of being "persuaded" or "convinced" that we have a good conscience.

(Hebrews 13:18) . . .Carry on prayer for us, for we trust we have an honest conscience, as we wish to conduct ourselves honestly in all things.

I know you didn't say that this type of obedience contradicts our Christian duty to question and therefore to make sure of all things. But Hebrews 13 often comes up by some as a reason to deflect from that Christian duty.

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There is no need to believe anything GB or WT says or writes. The Bible is the authority. We should believe in Jesus and what he said. And we should believe the apostles who Jesus had appointed and their writings. And if anyone goes above that, then apostle Paul says:  

Galatians 1:8 "However, even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to you as good news something beyond the good news we declared to you, let him be accursed." 

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2 minutes ago, Kosonen said:

There is no need to believe anything GB or WT says or writes. The Bible is the authority. We should believe in Jesus and what he said. And we should believe the apostles who Jesus had appointed and their writings. And if anyone goes above that, then apostle Paul says:  

Galatians 1:8 "However, even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to you as good news something beyond the good news we declared to you, let him be accursed." 

Pretty much what Br. Jackson insinuated, but this was to worldly people. It has yet to be put in plain writing for the congregations because it seems that many do not see it. (unlike you).

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The WT has very few times touched Galatians 1:8 (I suspect the writing commitee understands that this can easily be turned against themselves, because many WT doctrines are not well founded in the Bible)

But I found a perfect application in JW online library from a WT from 1952

    • Hello guest!

    9 Who can start a new religion, contrary to God’s written will and Word? “Even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to you as good news something beyond what we declared to you as good news, let him be accursed,” wrote the inspired apostle Paul. (

      Hello guest!
    , NW) If even a high and mighty angel from heaven cannot start a new gospel without being accursed, then certainly no man on earth can do so with immunity. Any who declare as gospel or good news something that is different from what is recorded in Jehovah’s Word is accursed in God’s sight, whether he is sincere in his declarations or not. Sincerity does not make a wrong thing right.

    SINCERITY NOT ENOUGH

    10. What proves sincerity and zeal alone are insufficient?

    10 Clearly indicating that sincerity or zeal in a religious organization that is not following God’s Word is insufficient, 

      Hello guest!
     (NW) declares: “I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God; but not according to accurate knowledge; for, because of not knowing the righteousness of God but seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.” These persons had zeal and they must have been sincere, but they did not act in accord with accurate knowledge of God’s Word. They did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own. In their stubbornness and pride in thinking their own religious ideas right and zealously trying to prove them so, they failed to subject themselves to the righteousness of God and his Word.

    11. How does 

      Hello guest!
     fit false religions today, and to what extreme may they even go?

    11 That is the way it is with so many false religions today. They have their creeds and doctrinal beliefs, pluck texts from their setting to support them, and brush aside any scriptures that contradict them. They zealously press on to establish as righteous their own beliefs, not allowing God’s Word to have final say on the matter and not listening to that Word in its entirety, but selecting what suits their purpose and wresting what does not, rather than conforming their belief to the untwisted, unwrested, pure word of truth in the Bible. Such ones lack meekness and teachableness. They are proud, they are stubborn, they refuse to admit wrong. Clinging tenaciously to their self-will in religious belief, they make themselves idolaters according to the divine rule. .........

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32 minutes ago, Anna said:

So if 1914 was questioned, when were the FDS appointed? It would remove that whole aspect of what we have been taught, including the brothers being in prison. 

Don't worry about that. As they moved "appointment over all belongings" to the future, they can make same with "appointment for sharing spiritual food" in the future too. It would need some deep thinking how to manage this issue, but "believe me", it is possible. :)) And JW's will not feel the change. 

JW's not feels any change about "all belongings". The same Society still have all influence over "belongings". And we know what "belongings" includes. JW's aspect still stay the same. Only many of members now have to go to some other congregational meetings because of "merging". Are "mergings" product of new doctrine? Did GB give info on: Who are now in charge "over all belongings"? (good idea for new topic, it is made now) I think that was not explained in WT study articles, not even in a simple edition :)) 

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Quote @Anna  "All this would remove the thought that the GB are the only channel God is using, although G.Jackson admitted that it would be presumptuous to think that they were the only chanel. However I don't think he, or any of the others have put this in writing in any of our publications though. So unless someone has read Jackson's ARC deposition, they will be under the impression that the FDS, therefore the GB  are the ONLY chanel God is using, and therefore to question anything they say is tantamount to going against God himself." 

Yes Anna precisely. When push came to shove, G. Jackson had to admit that the GB were not the only channel God would use. BUT they will not put it in writing.  Isn't that being deceptive ? Or more so dishonest ? As you've said most people, including 'boots on the ground' JWs, will not know.   

Quote "*Questioning God is allowed, but questioning the GB is not! How strange is that? "

I'd prefer not to question God. I think God showed Job who is who, and who not to question. 

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Quote @JW Insider  "Of course, obeying God as ruler and not men, doesn't preclude us from "obeying" our congregation elders.. "

It has been the obeying of congregation elders that has kept the Child Sexual Abuse so deeply hidden within JW Org. 

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2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

because there will be some who think it is "disobedient" to even consider the questions about 1914. 

I’m not one of them. Nor do I have you in mind with application of that Acts 5 verse. I have other people in mind.

Since I am also “out there,” even though not paralleling the topics that you take on, I give thought to “let he who is standing beware that he does not fall.” I don’t want to have happen to me what I have seen happen many times to others—brothers become experts in their own eyes and in time leave Jehovah’s organized worship completely, frustrated that it is not “keeping up.” 

I counter that tendency to become wise in my own eyes by firmly adhering to the traditional door-to-door ministry and making sure activity here is supplemental, not a replacement. My understanding is that you do the same, but I suspect that some others on this forum do not.

I counter the tendency to become wise in my own eyes by staying firmly cooperative with existing congregational arrangements, respecting the role and the need of leadership. I gather that you do the same. 

I counter the tendency to become wise in my own eyes by always looking for the good in others, such as in Philippians 2:3 mode of considering the other superior—searching out and honing in on the at least one quality, often many, at which the other plainly is superior, then always endeavoring to see him or her primarily through this lens. This I believe you do too. In fact, you are better at it than me.

I don’t view you as someone who is not obeying. I view you as someone who is bringing your gift to the altar. If you suspended your traditional ministry and began running down the Christian organization, I would reappraise. But you do not that I have seen. I too, try to “bring my gift to the altar,” such as it is, but it does not replace the organized activity that collectively makes the light shine.

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I remember when the catholic church changed fish-Friday to non-fish Friday.  My grandmother did not understand it but she just went ahead and did it. She stopped eating only fish on fridays.  No-one in the catholic church now goes back in the history of the catholic church to question that decision/teaching in an endless fashion. It has been accepted as being in line with scripture - so there is no endless rehashing of when the decision was taken and why they had it wrong before that change, who had it wrong etc. It is church history - the past.

Catholics are now questioning the new decision to have interfaith with other Abrahamic religions. Is it wrong of them to rather question what the church is doing right  now instead of the past?   I think not.  Past  improvements  are accepted and they strive to correct any deviations from gods word in the "current view" of things. 

Frankly, I do not care if Russel did not understand 1914 or not. I was not living at the time and it does not affect me now. People try to hash it up over and over to prove what?  It is NOW part of our teaching and I accept the teaching.  The reasons I will not go into here. 

I look at what the GB is teaching NOW because this is affecting us  NOW.  They have made mistakes in the past but so has every other  religion I know of and  most large secular corporations have  absolutely endless issues - it is life.  Most of my working life I saw large issues everywhere - so I have never had the expectation of earthly perfection from ANY organization be it religious or secular. 

I  therefore will only question teachings which are NOW part of the JW organization.   History is history and if it happens to fit in with past prophecies I will accept it I.e. the swift leopard beast with one big horn which is interpreted as Alexander the great. I accept the explanation because it fits the history.

We have the current teaching of the slave feeding domestics. Do I accept this when I read Matt 24:45 - yes or no.  If I accept it and get baptised - why will I start questioning it and its history in the congregation and cause dissent?  If I currently do not agree with my own previous decisions regarding JWs - then i can of free will leave the congregation and find a place where they have all the CORE teachings of the JWs without the teaching of the slave - but  i should not keep rehashing history and become a murmering  voice in the congregation.  This is not obeying scripture which encourages me to grow so I can encourage others.

Be in the congregation because you want to be there.  Do not sit with one foot in the congregation and the other outside it because you give yourself the right to higher criticism of the past history . 

If you do not like the present teachings - leave.  We live in a free world.........do not be a hypocrite and be an "indecisive" one........ but frankly - I do not know where you can go to......

If you stay - then accept the present teachings.  Contribute to the positive aspects of the congregation you are in.  Build up your brothers and sisters and build unity. .... do all the things the scriptures encourages us to do. 

 

 

 

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The reasons of strict attention to history is this:

If you do not know and understand history ... you are DOOMED to repeat it.

8 minutes ago, Arauna said:

If you do not like the present teachings - leave.  We live in a free world.........do not be a hypocrite and be an "indecisive" one........ but frankly - I do not know where you can go to......

If you stay - then accept the present teachings.

This is based on the FALSE premise that you are limited to do only one thing, or the other thing.

Since you are not concerned with our history ... you are doomed to repeat it.

..... as you have just demonstrated.

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20 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Frankly, I do not care if Russel did not understand 1914 or not.

You are right on this and many more what today's Russell-ites, Rutherford-ites and GB-ites boys and girls doing.... if you are not member of same group and have own life outside of all this.  

Otherwise , listen more what @James Thomas Rook Jr. have to said about it :))

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This is true. Russell had no idea WW1 would be the catalyst to the end of days as people like you continue to argue. He had more of an insight to what was happening with the Jewish people. Something the entire world likes to cling onto as a prophetic outcome.

The “fact” he was given that insight about 1914 made WW1 more of a realization of that prophetic event. Therefore, it doesn’t matter about the inspection of a group serving God with the same vigor and intent as the original Israelites. I believe the term “spiritual Israel” comes into play. What mattered is their loyalty to God by faith and love of his son to praise and worship God as instructed by Christ is what God ultimately saw as good.

However, if you furthered your research, you would know what other events lead up to 1914. So, it is not a matter of restricting someone from questioning 1914. It’s about making sure false narratives by opposing views are corrected, and not made in the name of their organization they disagree with. That way, God’s decision to give JW’s the same chance he gave the original Israelites wouldn’t be against God himself, because that’s exactly how it looks.

So, it really doesn’t matter what kind of opinions are drawn, here. People seem to forget, when did the GB stop following scripture that made people think their spiritual dedication doesn’t matter? A person such as that shouldn’t be involved in Christianity much less sight from scripture. Like Butler just posted, the blind leading the blind. The point I have always made, just like TTH said, I’m not one of them. That’s true, he isn’t. That’s the clarification I’m making, those that contradict the Watchtower are one of them, not one of us. Case closed!!

23 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Is @Leander H. McNelly  another Phantom of the Opera who are created just for down-vote? :)))

Interesting, why don't you ask John Butler. He seems to like to down vote a lot. However, shouldn't everyone have the ability to vote their conscience? if not, what is the point of having a down vote emoji if people can't use it.

I think you and JWinsider need to move on about the usage of emojis. He complained about some little Joe, now you. Does that mean you are keeping track to find a way to prevent them from posting their likes and dislikes like a communist nation? Move on!

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TTH:

2019-12-31_204414.jpg

Your opinion that "If you do not  know and understand  history, you are doomed to repeat it.", is a "load of manure" really surprises me. Up until now I knew you did not pay much attention to detail, but I thought you were smarter than THAT.

You have to know and understand history .... and learn from it ... not to fall into the same trap that has ensnared so many others, and perhaps even one's self

That is what EXPERIENCE IS !!!

LEARNING FROM HISTORY.!!!

To learn from it, you have to know IN DETAIL what has gone on around you before you stumbled on the scene. and understand what it really means.  OFTEN it's not what we know that makes a difference ... but what we know that IS NOT WRONG.

Details make the difference !

And now, for a musical interlude to lighten things up, with your very own introduction, illustrating my point that you are NOT a detail oriented person.

2019-12-31_114603.jpg

... and for those in Rio Linda ... it's "Beachwood 4-5789".

 

The Marvelettes - Beechwood 4-5789.mp4

On an old rotary phone, circa 1960, you would dial BE4-5789, in the United States.

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Imagine you were with Moses and some 3 million camped at the Red Sea, suddenly people are alarmed as they see chariots rushing toward them. As they get closer, some supernatural tornado appears between the chariots and you. Suddenly , your life changed, you were about to be the 1st person Pharaoh struck down with his spear.

Now miraculously You Are Safe! Are you thankful to God? Or do you begin complaining about Moses leadership?

1914 saw the beginning of the Last Days, Jesus foretold how they would begin with a war beyond the clash between 2 kings. The war was bad, the resulting peace was not that great, fear had entered the world, fear that it could happen again, world annihilation was now seen as possible, what was never imagined, was now reality.

The Book of Daniel foretold it, but the Book was sealed until the time of the end. Why were Bible Students were expecting it? Did all religions foretell 1914 as the end of the Gentile Times? What does the End of the Gentile Times mean?

Revelation 12:7 foretold: And war broke out in heaven: Miʹcha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven.9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. 

Angels battled in Heaven, the losers were thrown to the Earth. Were they upset?

1914 and WW1 are evidence of the anger Satan felt and his desire to harm those who Jesus was fond of.

1914 saw the End of the Gentile Times. Jehovah has allowed the World of Mankind to govern themselves. The Jews were unfaithful to their covenant with God. Jehovah loved King David,He promised King David that a man from his lineage would set on God's Throne of Earth's Sovereignty Forever. Jesus casting Satan to the Earth is proof that Jesus, the son of Jesse, has been enthroned as Earth's new King.

1914 Why didn't Armageddon begin then? Jesus is the primary King, however a "body" of Kings with Priestly abilities, who were once men and women, will better understand and help the many different people on Earth become restored to Jehovah's standards and favor.

1914 Saw the beginning of the sitting of the 144,000 King and Priests chosen from among the faithful witnesses of Jehovah. Faithfulness included doing the same ministry Jesus taught the Apostles.The ministry is a command that Jesus gave his disciples that were watching him be taken to heaven after his resurrection as a spirit. A person faithful to that command has shown themselves willing to humble themselves while cultivating a sincere desire to earnestly help others. 

1914 until when? When will the last of the 144,000 go to Heaven? The last will be changed from human to a spirit in the twinkling of an eye just as Armageddon is about to begin! All of the 144,000 , some you may have known, will come to Earth as God's executioners when Armageddon begins. See Mtt.13:36-43

1914 to 2020: The last 106 years have been some of the most stressful, the most painful, the most deadly, the most unnatural of human history, yet the expressed will of God was to be done during those years. See Mtt.24:14 , Mark 13:10

The Bible began with the Book of Genesis which explains creation, Adam & Eve, Eden, Satan, rebellion and mans eviction from God's Holy Presence. The pages that follow explain how a Seed of God would become the Messiah and how you could see it was him from Bible verses written hundreds of years before his birth. The Seed,defined Jehovah and taught men to pray to Him for His Kingdom to come. The Seed taught about the "restoration" and a Kingdom of Kings and Priests ruling with him after he had gone to his Father. The Book of Isaiah reveals the promise of earthly life, building houses, growing food and grapes, peace with the animals, youthful flesh and long life first spoken in Isaiah, the Book of Revelation repeats the promise of a long peaceful life of people after Armageddon.See Re.21:3-5. Daniel foretold survivors of a great distress after Michael (Jesus heavenly name) Stands up, which is echoed at Revelation 7:14.

6000 years ago, The Highest Court gave a complainer about God time to show he could do a better job than God. Who are the jury? Millions upon Millions of spirit creatures who by their integrity have voted that Jehovah has acted properly toward all spirit life. What about human life? Every adult human has a vote, like the angels, they either imitate God or Satan.

1914 and the Good News. The International Bible Students began in all earnest effort to make the Kingdom known from 1919 until today. Like the person leaving Egypt, we have witnessed many unusual events. Jesus stated these would occur after he was enthroned as Jehovah's Appointed King. For the joy that Jesus saw set in front of him, like a carrot before a horse, Jesus stayed the course, tho chariots of non-believers struck him and mocked his faith, he stayed the course and has sat down at the right hand of God.

Now wicked men mock those chasing the carrot. I see the waters open before us, as the Hailstones begin to fall, their mocking will stop. Tho they chase after us into the waters, they will remain unknown forever! For all human history of those without the approved faith will be forgotten! While the Names of the Survivors may Last Forever!

The Expressed Will of God is being Preached in all the inhabited Earth by one religious group.That should tell you who are most closely following Jesus' teachings and who God has empowered with His Holy Spirit. That preaching is the execution of God's Justice, He is warning of His Actions against those who do not honor His King, Jesus, and obey the moral teachings written in His Inspired Word.

1914 seems like a long time ago, but is it beyond God's Expressed Time?

 

     

 

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5 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Unfortunately, this saying is a load of manure, imo. You repeat it regardless. 

Too cynical. I take it back. Sometimes you do learn from history. At least, it takes longer to repeat it.

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5 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

and understand history ... you are DOOMED to repeat it.

  5 hours ago, Arauna said:
 

That cliche is happening right now!  The whole world is repeating the same history we saw before WW1 and WW2 right now!!. It looks different on the surface but yet the same....... so they will wake up too late.  Wicked mankind is doomed to repeat the same history over and over with worse results than ever before. 

We should know our own JW history with its flaws but endless analyses  on it does not serve a purpose - each generation  of GB will make new mistakes and if your expectations are that the JW.org. will not make new mistakes or cannot make them  - think again. 

Thankfully there are several  ibble principles we can apply to this:  jehovah judges the end of a matter not its beginning.  Wicked king  manasseh  comes to mind.

Jehovah does not see the imperfection but the motive of the heart. Ps 103 comes to mind - he remembers we are flesh.  The world judges JWs harshly on every little detail but jehovah judges us with tenderness because we try hard to do his will in an increasing hostile world.  Jesus was perfect and was viciously attacked by satan's world -  we also  will not get off lightly

The light is getting brighter - and JWs are fulfilling bible prophecy related to the last days   Matt 24:14,  Isaiah 2:2-4.  Other Christian religions do not even  understand that the kingdom is a real government and those that do have some other core beliefs that do not come from the bible.

We should be thankful to jehovah.  We get food that is prepared  in abundance. We get home from work, prepare litteral food, and can sit down with spiritual food already prepared in easy understandable bites/bytes..

We search for people with the right heart condition. We teach them the newest  bible information we have because this is what we as JW org are right now and  the light we understand at this moment.  We make them aware of our flawed past but to dwell on the past JW history is a mistake.  There are too many positive core teachings the person will not be able to learn from ANY other earthly organization and we must let them eat this first so they can make a decision to join us to serve jehovah  -  or not.  Lot's wife looked back to her detriment.  We must leave our own personal history behind (what high positions we had or could have been, or wicked history ) and focus on the now and the future.  JW  org history is good to know but does NOT affect what we are right now. Mistakes were made and they will definitely come back to bite us in a hostile world - for sure. But we should build our own faith now to withstand the trials ahead.

People who come to this forum to troll or hate - do not have a ready heart.   On field service we go back to those who show a positive attitude or are prepared to learn despite them having difficult personalities .  We help those who are ready to receive help.  With difficult people I make sure to leave a thought they can think about to change their heart condition. We plant and jehovah makes it grow - or not.....

Keep evaluating what is taught in the present era - if it is in line with scripture.  Are the GB careful in what they teach today? Not getting political? Sticking to the godly commission of preaching and giving proper spiritual food to all?   Preparing us to be ready for Armageddon?  Not rushing ahead with dates and prophecies like they did before?  I can answer a yes to all of these.

 

1 hour ago, the Sower of Seed said:

1914 seems like a long time ago, but

106 years is nothing to jehovah.  I do not know how long before the flood Noah had completed the ark.   Food had to be harvested etc. They could have been mocking him saying:  where is the rain you promised...... your ark has been standing there for so long.... maybe the wood aged a bit in its positions and additional bitumen was needed.  120 years jehovah set for that doomed generation. Did Noah know it was 120 years? Maybe not..... but later he knew because it is written down.  

The world is mocking us right now.  I love to study ancient history and discovered one aspect  of generation before the GB.   There are multiple generations always living at the same time.  This never bothered me because like Noah we should keep busy with the right things. The evidence around us is overwhelming.  We have been trained by GB to discern the time! ....a d to keep busy with the right things.

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4 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

Now miraculously You Are Safe! Are you thankful to God? Or do you begin complaining about Moses leadership?

I believe how the order is always similar: First you thanks God, and Second blame the people. Almost always works this way :)

4 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

Like the person leaving Egypt, we have witnessed many unusual events. 

That makes another problem. Do you by "unusual events" mean "miracles"? If yes, we both shall be disappointed. WT Society said, miracles stopped in 1 Century. 

4 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

1914 and the Good News. The International Bible Students began in all earnest effort to make the Kingdom known from 1919 until today. Like the person leaving Egypt, we have witnessed many unusual events. Jesus stated these would occur after he was enthroned as Jehovah's Appointed King.

"we have witnessed many unusual events"

Obviously you speaking about "signs": wars, famine, crimes .... But, all what was described not belong to "unusual events". Bible said how nothing new is happening under Earth. In that context, wars, famine, earthquakes, crimes .... can't be considered  as "unusual"  for humankind, these are not "miracles". But everyday process in life of people and Earth. Even "preaching" is not a miracle, but repeated history.

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10 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

1914 saw the beginning of the Last Days, Jesus foretold how they would begin with a war beyond the clash between 2 kings.

The “war” began in Genesis:

And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”  Gen 3:15

Jesus has been ruling since the first century.  To say he hasn’t, reflects a greater perceived power to be attributed to Satan, than to Christ.  And who would mislead us with the lie that Jesus’ power was inert until 1914, if not Satan and his ministers? 2 Cor 11:12-15  Who can manipulate the world’s actions to create a counterfeit fulfillment of scripture, misleading God’s people in this war of truth against lies?  Satan is the master of deceit!  1 John 5:19; Matt 24:24; Luke 21:8; 2 Cor 11:3,4; Col 2:8; 2 Thess 2:3,9; Rev 16:13,14

 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.”  Matt 28:18 

“So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.”  Mar 16:19 

The Lord said to my Lord,
Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”

The Lord shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion.
Rule in the midst of Your enemies!  Ps 110:1,2
 

For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 1 Cor 15:25

10 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

1914 Saw the beginning of the sitting of the 144,000 King and Priests

Fabrication. Zion includes the “144,000”. 

“The Lord shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion.
Rule in the midst of Your enemies!”  Ps 110:2

But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels”  Heb 12:22

“For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,  who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.”   Phil 3:20,21 

“Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

14 Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God”  Eph 6:10-17 

“For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ”  2 Cor 10:3-5

“by the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armor of righteousness on the right hand and on the left”  2 Cor 6:7

“The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light.”  Rom 13:12

 

These early priests of God were standing with Christ in this war, during their physical life time and in Spirit once they died.  Each faithful anointed in Christ since, has fought the same war during their fleshly time on the earth and once in heaven. 

“If we endure,
We shall also reign with Him.
If we deny Him,
He also will deny us.”  2 Tim 2:12

 

 

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1 hour ago, Witness said:

Jesus has been ruling since the first century.  To say he hasn’t, reflects a greater perceived power to be attributed to Satan, than to Christ.

Please provide some evidence that Christ was enthroned in the 1st century.

The Book of Revelation was written in 96 C.E., The First action of the Newborn King is tied to the ouster of Satan from Heaven.

What happened the last four years of the 1st century to support your theory?

Revelation 12:10 I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the Kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! 

1914 is a year foretold by Matthew 24:7 “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. 

If Jesus was ENTHRONED in the 1st century then he is in no hurry to cleanse the Earth of the haters of his God.

If the resurrection and anointing to fill the 144,000 has continued since Christ resurrection, then who really will be saved? 

No, the enthronement must have been in 1914. 

 

1 hour ago, Witness said:

The Lord said to my Lord,

This is why the truth is hidden to many. 

As you wrote the Lord said to himself..................

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33 minutes ago, the Sower of Seed said:
1 hour ago, Witness said:

The Lord said to my Lord,

This is why the truth is hidden to many. 

As you wrote the Lord said to himself..................

I love this verse, usually rendered as: “The LORD said to my Lord”

”Do you know why that is?” I will ask people, referring to how one is in all caps and the other not so.

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1 hour ago, Witness said:

Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”

 

Jehovah said sit at my right hand ( until I prepare the Earth for your Kingship). Jehovah is the one acting as KING. You would expect Jehovah to stand down and watch His Son Rule if Jesus had been enthroned.

Ps.2:1 Why are the nations agitated And the peoples muttering an empty thing? 2 The kings of the earth take their stand And high officials gather together as one Against Jehovah and against his anointed one.

The nations gather against Jehovah and His anointed one. 

What year is this?

 

5 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I love this verse, usually rendered as: “The LORD said to my Lord”

”Do you know why that is?” I will ask people, referring to how one is in all caps and the other not so.

Yes this is where the King James 1611 did the world a great disservice they removed YHWH and Inserted LORD or GOD. (ALmighty)

When speaking of Jesus they would print Lord or god.(Lessor) See John 1:1

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@the Sower of Seed The problem with 1914 is that according to Revelation 12 after Satan is thrown down to earth he will be for a short time here raging. 106 years is way long. And longer than any generation. 

It surely started ill with WW1 and then soon WW2. But why did it calm down seriously after that for more than 70 years? Many people have experienced a much better life since then. And the world's population has been able to grow as never before. In 1914 world's population was about 1,8 billion. Now it is 100 years later 7,7 billions. That is more than 4 times. That is thanks to better living conditions. 

It does not seem that Satan was permanently thrown down to earth around 1914. Looks like he made an extra effort to disturb life on earth from 1914 to 1945. But then it has been very prosperous times until recently. 

So instead I believe Satan will be cast down to earth just a few years before the end of this system of things.

Then it can be said that he will have a short period of time as says Revelation 12.

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20 minutes ago, the Sower of Seed said:

Jehovah is the one acting as KING. You would expect Jehovah to stand down and watch His Son Rule if Jesus had been enthroned.

For in Him all things were created, thing in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him. - Coll 1

 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised![a] Amen. - Romans 9 -

It seems how this individual here have been always in position to be over, above all thrones and rulers and authorities. According to this he has everything. 

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Seems certain people have been corrupted here enough not to know better about the word LORD!

The distention made in Psalms is the same distention made in Matthew. YHWH is one, the son is another. Unfortunately, some lexicons use the same meaning for both (Kurios).

Therefore, there needs to be a separation between κυρίῳ noun dative masculine singular from κύριος.

Then King David is making a distention in TITLE with the reference in Psalms.

Yahweh speaks to my lord, who is the king (see commentaries, and footnotes to tob, rsv Oxford Edition, neb Oxford Edition). tev, frcl, and gecl make this explicit.* In many languages the term often used for God (Lord) cannot be used to refer to the king; for this reason the confusion that appears in English and other languages may not be present.

The problem with conflict here about Jesus kingship is drawn not by the opposition, but rather from witnesses that believe Jesus kingship started in AD33. That proposition is one of many falsely entertained here in the past.

For one, Jesus own words in John 18 should be enough for people to understand, Christ kingship had not yet begun. However, it is the opinion of some that Jesus could not possibly be simply waiting to take the throne all this time. People seem to forget, angelic time differs from man's.

Therefore, is it the GB’s fault people don’t understand scripture? Or is it the people themselves that make the mistakes and try to blame others by suggesting, the GB has erred and will continue to make mistakes as imperfect beings when indeed it is those people that continue in their wrongful interpretation of scripture and not understand the explanations given, to gain a better understanding of the Bible.

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3 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

Please provide some evidence that Christ was enthroned in the 1st century.

I did, with plenty of scripture. I’m surprised that not even Ps 110:2  clicked.   Maybe you should go back and read them?  But, here’s another one:

“And also, corresponding to this, baptism now saves you, not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, with angels and authorities and powers having been subjected to him.” 1 Pet 3:21,22

3 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

The Book of Revelation was written in 96 C.E., The First action of the Newborn King is tied to the ouster of Satan from Heaven.

What power did Jesus say he possessed when on the earth?

“Jesus came near and said to them, "All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth.”

What did he tell his apostles?

"Look, I have given you the authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and over all the power of the enemy; nothing at all will harm you.”  Luke 10:19

This gives evidence that Jesus began his kingdom rule even when on the earth, starting with this given authority that produced results, when sharing it with his apostles.

Why did he take those actions?  To set the groundwork for the Kingdom to come, which required a complete Temple of “living stones” built on his body, to be proven worthy to rule with him in God’s Kingdom.  (John 2:20-22; 1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17; Eph 2:20-22; Rev 5:9,10) A ruler is not given authority and power over others who are in subjection to him, without utilizing that authority and power, which we see that Jesus did utilize his authority. 

3 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

Revelation 12:10

 

And I heard a loud voice in heaven saying,

“Now the salvation and the power
    and the kingdom of our God
    and the authority of his Christ have come,
because the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down,
    the one who accuses them before our God day and night.

Who is being continually accused by Satan?  Each individual anointed one, a "brother" of Christ, beginning with those in the first century, who is tested just as Jesus was through slander against them, and deceit to mislead them.   (Luke 22:31; John 16:20,22,33; Eph 6:12)

Read further –

Rev 12:11 – “And they conquered him by the blood of the Lamb
    and by the word of their testimony,
and they did not love their lives until death.”

Each anointed must “conquer” Satan by their testimony to truth.  This is what the battle is about – conquering Satan’s lies with Christ’s truth.  During the last days, the remaining remnant of anointed ones have the most difficult deception inspired by Satan, placed before them.  2 Thess 2:9-12; Rev 13:1,2,11,12,14-17; 12:17; 9:5,9; 6:9-11 

3 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

If Jesus was ENTHRONED in the 1st century then he is in no hurry to cleanse the Earth of the haters of his God.

To believe that there is a literal 1000 years after Armageddon and that Satan is let loose then to cause destruction and death, would be charging Jesus Christ as having “no hurry to cleanse the Earth of the haters of God”. As if during his time in heaven since his resurrection he was completely ineffective even through Armageddon, of putting enemies under his feet. 

“But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death27 For “He has put all things under His feet.”  1 Cor 15:23-27a”

Death is destroyed in the end - at the end of Armageddon.  Death is not resurrected a thousand literal years after Armageddon.

Since Jesus began ruling in the first century, his symbolic reign of a “thousand years” also began.   We have obvious scriptures that tell us that a thousand years can be symbolic. (Ps 90:4; 2 Pet 3:8)   And since the symbolic book of Revelation uses it (Rev 20:2,3,7), we should see that it can’t be a literal time period.    As I believe I’ve pointed out here in the past, the scripture’s use of a “1,000” can mean a reached fullness, perfection. Researching the frequent use of a “1,000” in scriptures supports this.  

And the seventy-two returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in your name!” 18 So he said to them, “I saw Satan falling like lightning from heaven. 19 Behold, I have given you the authority to tread on snakes and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will ever harm you20 Nevertheless, do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are inscribed in heaven.”  Luke 10:17-20

This gives evidence that Satan was “abyssed” or restricted in using his full powers against the anointed until the last days, when he is “let loose”…to DECEIVE THE SAINTS. 

Your organization teaches you a confused rendition of the identities of Gog and Magog of Revelation 20:7,8. Simply, they are the two Beasts of Revelation. (Rev 13)  Your leaders tell you Gog and Magog appear during Armageddon, and even after Armageddon.  I don’t see anything in God’s Word that supports two Gogs and two Magogs, one pair to appear now and one later.   This confusion is because of their teaching of a thousand years to come after Armageddon, and all is based on the falsehood of 1914, where Jesus is found to be languishing in heaven until 1914. 

Rev 20:9,10 states that the “saints”/anointed are surrounded by “Gog and Magog” at the end of the symbolic thousand years to be deceived by the devil, the beast and the false prophet.  (Rev 16:13,14; Rev 13:1,2,11,12)   If this was to occur when the saints are ruling with Christ on the other side of Armageddon, they can’t be surrounded if they have received a “kingdom”.  They will have conquered Satan and his lies well before then.  They will have been found victorious over the Beast/organization.  Rev 15:2 

So, where are the anointed today?  What “surrounds” them?  The walls of the organization and the false teachings of 1914, a “thousand years” to come, the need for an earthly organization, and many more lies that they must individually conquer, even if it means being “killed” for rejecting them, and giving testimony to Christ’s truth.  Matt 16:25; Rev 13:15; 11:3,7

3 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

1914 is a year foretold by Matthew 24:7 “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. 

 

The signs are spiritual, not physical although Satan will lead you to believe they all take place in the realm of the physical earth and the world; and he can make it physically happen.  Job 1:16-19

The “kings”/”nations” that are at war are Jesus’ “kings of the earth”; the faithful against the unfaithful.  Rev 1:5; 5:9,10; 16:14; 17:1,2

“food shortages”, the result of an “evil steward” ruling of the House of God, cutting off all supply of spiritual provisions that the entire household of anointed priests should contribute to.   Luke 16:1,2; Amos 8:11; 2 Chron 15:3; Rev 2:9. 

“earthquakes”, Heb 12:26; Isa 13:13; Luke 23:30; Isa 2:19,21; Hos 10:8

 If you read through Matt 24, who are warned not to be deceived in the last days, and by whom?

3 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:
5 hours ago, Witness said:

The Lord said to my Lord,

This is why the truth is hidden to many. 

As you wrote the Lord said to himself..................

 Within the last say, 4-5 years, I and other anointed ones have learned that “Jehovah” is not appropriate to use when referring to God.

A declaration of YHWH/YHVH to my lord,
“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies your footstool.”
YHWH will send out your mighty scepter from Zion;

rule in the midst of your enemies.  Ps 110:1,2

Although, if you notice that Jesus never did refer to God as “Jehovah”; nor YHWH, but always, “Father”. The WT has taken bold liberty to insert “Jehovah” into its NWT of the Greek scriptures. But, look at Matt 22:41-46, read from Watchtower’s Kingdom Interlinear:

“Having been lead together but of the Pharisees inquired upon them the Jesus saying What to you does it seem about the Christ?  Who’s son is he?  They are saying to him Of the David   He is saying to them How therefore David in spirit is calling him Lord saying    Said Lord to the lord of me   Be sitting out of right-hand [parts] of me until likely I should put the enemies of you beneath the feet of you?    If David is calling him Lord how Son of him is he?”

Your NWT rejected their own Interlinear rendering and inserted “Jehovah”, and I believe you will not find an Interlinear using “Jehovah” in these scriptures.   

 

3 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

Jehovah said sit at my right hand ( until I prepare the Earth for your Kingship).

Again:

Ps 110:2 - The Lord shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion.
Rule in the midst of Your enemies!

Do you see it? God is telling Christ when he sat down at His right hand,  to RULE!

"RULE" - 

רָדָה râdâh, raw-daw'; a primitive root; to tread down, i.e. subjugate; specifically, to crumble off:—(come to, make to) have dominion, prevail against, reign, (bear, make to) rule,(-r, over), take.

"REIGN IN THE MIDST OF YOUR ENEMIES"!

 

 

Pearl Doxsey, "The Sign of the End" 4womaninthewilderness

 

 

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4 hours ago, Kosonen said:

Many people have experienced a much better life since then....That is thanks to better living conditions. 

It all depends upon where you look and what is most important to you.

I am reminded of that line from the 1968 book The Truth that Leads to Eternal Life: “True, there has been progress in a materialistic way. But is it really progress when men send rockets to the moon, and yet cannot live together in peace on earth?”

Some people think it is.

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22 hours ago, Arauna said:

Frankly, I do not care if Russel did not understand 1914 or not.

It's easy to understand why you wouldn't care. In the overall stream of things I do not care either. I know you might not have been directing your comments at me, but in defense of the person who brought it up here, he seemed to think it was important, and I respect his reason for making the point. Believe it or not, this is NOT a teaching from our past. The Watchtower considers it relevant to our CURRENT teachings, and it has been repeated several times in the last few years. The importance of this point to the CURRENT Watchtower teachings is the reason I wanted to make sure we knew whether this current teaching is based on facts.

Note this very recent Watchtower, where the teaching about what Russell discerned in 1914 was important enough to repeat here and in many other places in our publications:

*** w17 February p. 25 par. 8 Who Is Leading God’s People Today? ***
To help them disseminate Bible truth in various languages, Zion’s Watch Tower Tract Society was legally incorporated in 1884, with Brother Russell as president. . . . He discerned that Christ would return invisibly and that “the appointed times of the nations” would end in 1914.

Also note how this is current teaching from another perspective:

*** w14 1/15 p. 31 par. 15 “Let Your Kingdom Come”—But When? ***
In his detailed prophecy about the conclusion of this system of things, Jesus said: “This generation will by no means pass away until all these things happen.” (Read Matthew 24:33-35.) We understand that in mentioning “this generation,” Jesus was referring to two groups of anointed Christians. The first group was on hand in 1914, and they readily discerned the sign of Christ’s presence in that year.

*** w10 6/15 p. 5 United in Love—Annual Meeting Report ***
How comforting it is to know that the younger anointed contemporaries of those older anointed ones who discerned the sign when it became evident beginning in 1914 will not die off before the great tribulation starts!

You do not think it is important, and I agree. I was only dealing with the fact that the Watch Tower publications indicate that the GB believes it is something we should currently care about.

Also, when Cesar Chavez brought this up, it was likely primarily in the context of defending this current teaching.

On 12/30/2019 at 3:08 PM, César Chávez said:

It is by faith that we accept those events to be true, just like faith gave a person insight to understand the end of the gentile times in 1914 way before the event of WW1 happened.

And we know that the Watchtower CURRENTLY teaches that this idea refers especially to Russell and his associates. (See the books "God's Kingdom Rules" and "Pure Worship.")

Of course, Cesar may also have had in mind a parallel discussion here about whether it is still "FAITH" when it leads us into a false teaching, a false doctrine.

*** sl chap. 16 p. 287 par. 12 Awaiting the “New Heavens and a New Earth” ***
Russell calculated that Christ’s “presence” had begun in the year 1874 C.E., unseen to human eyes and seen only by the eye of faith.

The implication from the above article is that it is OK to have FAITH in a false teaching, or false doctrine. As long as the false teaching also contains some important element of truth. This topic might not interest you, and that's OK. But I just wanted to explain why he seemed to have brought it up and why I responded for any who might be taking the topic seriously.

For me, as I've said, there is also a matter of "making sure of ALL things" and the need to pay attention to ourselves and to our teaching. This is because we all need to HONEST teachers with nothing to be ashamed of. And I agree with you, that this "shame" should have nothing to do with past teachings, but is about our CURRENT teachings.

Here's where the issue of honesty comes in. Almost every one of these statements about what was discerned "decades in advance" is almost always written ambiguously in such a way that it could give us, or our Bible students, the impression that Russell had actually had faith and insight, sometime before 1914 that Jesus would return invisibly in 1914. In fact, we know that Russell didn't even have faith or discernment that Jesus would EVER return invisibly at any date in the near future, because when Russell accepted this teaching, it included the "fact" that Jesus had ALREADY returned invisibly in the PAST, not that he would return invisibly in the future.

If we were not aware of the way almost all these statements are made ambiguously, then how easy it would be to give our Bible students the impression that something like the following was true.

*** w98 9/15 p. 15 par. 1 Waiting in “Eager Expectation” ***
By linking the “seven times” of Daniel 4:25 with “the times of the Gentiles,” they anticipated that Christ would receive Kingdom power in 1914.

This is very obviously a false statement, since they did NOT believe Christ would receive Kingdom power in 1914. Christ had already received Kingdom power in 1878, and 1914 was the time for the Jews to receive Kingdom power in Jerusalem, and the time for a resurrection, not of any Christians, but beginning with Jewish, faithful men of old. Most statements have been more careful to provide just enough ambiguity to imply what that quote states without making a false statement. But several false statements have still slipped through. Use the Watchtower Library and look up the term "decades in advance" or "decades before 1914" (adding the quotation marks) and you should see several examples of this.

*** yb75 p. 37 Part 1—United States of America ***
Russell said: “The seven times will end in A.D. 1914.” He had correctly linked the Gentile Times with the “seven times” mentioned in the book of Daniel. (Dan. 4:16, 23, 25, 32) True to such calculations, 1914 did mark the end of those times and the birth of God’s kingdom in heaven with Christ Jesus as king.

Notice how the same false implication is there, but it was worded ambiguously so that it only implies that Russell correctly calculated the birth of God's kingdom in heaven.

*** w13 2/15 p. 18 par. 4 Stay in Jehovah’s Valley of Protection ***
Decades before 1914, Jehovah’s worshippers declared to the nations that the end of “the appointed times of the nations” would come in that year and that the world would enter into an unequaled period of trouble.

Here's another recent teaching which states that decades before 1914, we taught that the world would enter into an unequaled time of trouble. What would you do if you had a Bible study who believed this statement. Would you correct him or her? Should you? In truth, decades before 1914, Jehovah's worshippers declared that the world would finally enter an unequaled period of peace, because the time of trouble would END in October 1914: Decades in advance, Russell said in Studies in the Scriptures, V.5, p.604:

". . . the time of trouble, or “day of wrath” which began October 1874 and will end October 1914."

 

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1 hour ago, Witness said:

I did, with plenty of scripture. I’m surprised that not even Ps 110:2  clicked.   Maybe you should go back and read them?

Maybe you should re read the question? 

EVIDENCE of KINGSHIP AFTER JOHN WROTE REVELATION in the 1st Century?

does having all authority equal being enthroned as King?

Or does being enthroned demand a ceremony where Jehovah exalts Christ as King before everyone involved, 1st the angels, then mankind? 

Satan, who rejects Christ Kingship would be thrown out immediately or would Christ just hangout with him in Heaven 2000 years?

Satan has authority over everyone on Earth, was he Enthroned as Earths King?

To better understand, If Christ had ALL AUTHORITY: Why did he not order Satan to desist all wicked influence on Christ's Brothers?

Now, you are a single apostate, will God only deliver you? 

For God must deliver those who believe the Truth expressed by a Faithful Slave, who are Christ's Brothers. Mtt.24:45

Are You One of Christ's Brothers dispensing the Truth In HARMONY with a Faithful Slave?

The Good News being accomplished throughout the Earth is being lead by angelic direction, the sheep are directed to the Faithful Slave and the Waters of Truth.........................NOT TO YOU

WHO SHOULD CONFORM?

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On 12/31/2019 at 12:39 PM, 4Jah2me said:

Yes Anna precisely. When push came to shove, G. Jackson had to admit that the GB were not the only channel God would use. BUT they will not put it in writing.  Isn't that being deceptive ? Or more so dishonest ? As you've said most people, including 'boots on the ground' JWs, will not know.   

It has been put in writing, but no it so many words as he said at the ARC. Not black and white. Many JW's don't think beyond what is black and white, and need everything not only served up, but already digested. This is why many, like you, are under the wrong impression that the GB are supposed to make no mistakes, and cannot be questioned. And then, like you, when they find out they have made mistakes, their faith is shaken, and they throw out the baby with the bath water.

So then you keep talking about the "real anointed"....
What do you think the identifying mark of these "real anointed" is?  What should these "real anointed" be like? Like the anointed in the first century? Perhaps like impulsive Peter, who denied Christ three times, and was hypocritical when it came to impartiality or perhaps like Paul, who had outbursts of anger, or Barnabas who was swayed by others to act pretentiously? The Bible does not mention every detail of the lives of the anointed, and the mistakes they made, but it is obvious that they were imperfect and did make mistakes. Should we expect any less from the "real anointed" today? Because you seem to be stuck on the idea that the true anointed would never make any mistakes. But that is not a Biblical teaching at all. Why else were the anointed of the 1st century admonished to continue putting up with one another? Why did James say to his fellow anointed that they were to confess their sins to one another? Why did Paul admit it was a battle to do the right thing, and that sometimes he failed? The anointed of those days were baptized with holy spirit, the HS helped them to speak languages they never knew before, it helped them to perform miracles. All that was finished and done when the last of them died, and wasn't going to happen again. Jesus said that the HS was going to guide the anointed into all the truth. There is no indication that this was going to be an instantaneous revelation. On the contrary it was going to be gradual, just like the dawning of a day. (according to the scriptures).  Not only that, but "all the truth" is a relative term, as according to the Bible we will never know all the truth. So "all the truth" means what Jehovah wants us to know, and when he wants us to know it.

@b4ucuhear hit the nail on the head when he said regarding those taking the lead:  "People need to know the difference. "Whole-souled devotion" to Jehovah does not mean whole-souled devotion to imperfect men - even when we respect what authority they have as part of Jehovah's arrangement and offer scriptural obedience. " One reason is that some of these men are not who they appear to be (whether they be "wolves in sheep's clothing," "wicked men and imposters," "rocks hidden below the surface..." There is no level of authority within the organization where such men have not been found.) Should we be obedient to them? We need to know the difference when such men (i.e.. apostates or immoral men) direct things not in harmony with Jesus' direction as recorded in the Bible. Also, that way we won't be stumbled when Jesus apparently gets dates and teachings wrong and has to back-track on what he directed/controlled before. No, the reality is that we still have to use our brains".  (emphasis mine).

The above sentiments apply not only to apostates and immoral men, but to anyone in the position of leadership (just in case you don't know, that means the GB too). This is why G. Jackson was able to say that (paraphrased), "anyone who has the Bible can check whether the GB is doing things according to the Bible". That means YOU too! So please tell, Bible in hand, what have you found?

 

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P.S. Correction: To be fair, I should have never used the word "channel" as that was never what was questioned, because the only channel God is using to communicate with mankind is his Word, the Bible. The word that was actually used is "spokesperson" for God, and it is obvious that anyone who "speaks" the Word of God (from the Bible) is his spokesperson.  G. Jackson remarked that it is anyone who gives comfort and help through the scriptures.....

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6 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

Maybe you should re read the question? 

EVIDENCE of KINGSHIP AFTER JOHN WROTE REVELATION in the 1st Century?

From what I remember, your statement was,

"Please provide some evidence that Christ was enthroned in the 1st century."

I gave you many scriptures to prove that he was.   If you’re asking for evidence that Christ is viewed as King in Revelation, let me first give more evidence of kingship even while one earth:

Pilate therefore said to Him, “Are You a king then?” Jesus answered, “You say rightly that I am a king. For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.”  Luke 18:37

6 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

Satan, who rejects Christ Kingship would be thrown out immediately or would Christ just hangout with him in Heaven 2000 years?

A king “conquers”:

"Now is the judgment of this world. Now the ruler of this world will be cast out.

"and about judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.

"I have told you these things so that in me you may have peace. You will have suffering in this world. Be courageous! I have conquered the world."  John 12:31; 16:11,33

Just as Jesus conquered Satan and his accusations against him, while on earth, every anointed one must also conquer him.

John 14:30 "I will not talk with you much longer, because the ruler of the world is coming. He has no power over me.”

“I have written to you, children, because you have come to know the Father. I have written to you, fathers, because you have come to know the one who is from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, God's word remains in you, and you have conquered the evil one.”  1 John 2:14

Conquering Satan is conquering death.  That is only possible by turning to Christ in full obedience.  We receive life through Christ’s atoning sacrifice, only if we obey his teachings.  John 14:21   

 “O death, where is your victory?
    O death, where is your sting?”

56 For sin is the sting that results in death, and the law gives sin its power. 57 But thank God! He gives us victory over sin and death through our Lord Jesus Christ.” 1 Cor 15:55-57

This is during the “thousand year kingdom” that began in the first century:

He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love  Col 1:13

 

Revelation:

 “John, to the seven churches in Asia: grace to you and peace from the one who is and the one who was and the one who is coming, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne, and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To the one who loves us and released us from our sins by his blood and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father—to him be the glory and the power forever and ever. Amen.”  Rev 1:4-6

To be ruler over the “kings of the earth” – HIS faithful kings -  He also must be a ruling King:

And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and the one seated on it was called “Faithful” and “True,” and with justicehe judges and makes war.  And out of his mouth came a sharp sword, so that with it he could strike the nations. And he will shepherd them with an iron rod, and he stomps the winepress of the wine of the furious wrath of God, the All-Powerful. 16 And he has a name written on his outer garment and on his thigh: “King of kings and Lord of lords.” Rev 19:11,15,16

6 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

does having all authority equal being enthroned as King?

Or does being enthroned demand a ceremony where Jehovah exalts Christ as King before everyone involved, 1st the angels, then mankind? 

 “ And I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and of the living creatures and of the elders, and their number was ten thousand times ten thousand and thousands times thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice,

“Worthy is the Lamb who was slaughtered
    to receive power and riches
    and wisdom and strength
    and honor and glory and praise!”

13 And I heard every creature that is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and in the sea and everything in them saying,

“To the one who is seated on the throne and to the Lamb
    be praise and honor and glory and power
    forever and ever.”

14 And the four living creatures were saying, “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshiped.  Rev 5:11-14

6 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

To better understand, If Christ had ALL AUTHORITY: Why did he not order Satan to desist all wicked influence on Christ's Brothers?

 

Christ's “thousand year” kingdom is to bring to nothing, Satan’s world.  This culminates when death is destroyed in Armageddon. (1 Cor 15:24-26; Rev 20:10)   For 2,000 years, he has been building the tried and cleansed “administration” of priests/kings/Bride who will serve God and Christ, reign and teach in Gods Kingdom. Eph 1:9-11

As I said, Satan was “abyssed” in the first century.  The abyss is not a “place of inactivity” as the WT claims , but a point of altered perception, the state of “not perceiving”.   Hades, Tartarus, hell, abyss all refer to a state of “not perceiving”. A place of darkness.  (Jer 13:16; Rom 10:7; 2; 2 Pet 2:4;Jude 1:6; Col 1:13)

 Hádēs (from 1 /A "not" and idein/eidō, "see/perceive/know") = not knowing/not understanding/not perceiving.

When Satan is released from the abyss, his focus becomes clearly bent on destroying the “remaining ones of the woman’s seed.” Rev 12:4  He formulates “Gog and Magog”, the Beasts of Revelation. (2 Thess 2:3,4; 9-12; Rev 13:1,2,5-7,11,12; 20:7-10)

Jesus, who conquered death, has a key to the abyss, (Rev 1:18) as does Satan, who is “King” of the abyss. Rev 9:11  To utilize it, Satan must have willing subjects who submit to his offers. Luke 4:7   This is how the two Beasts of Revelation develop, through the “key” given a “fallen star” – fallen anointed whom he manipulates to carry out his plan against the anointed of God.   (Dan 12:3; Phil 2:15; Jude 1:11-13; Rev 9:1-3; 8:10,11; Heb 12:15; Rev 13:1,2) 

6 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

Now, you are a single apostate, will God only deliver you? 

My label as an “apostate” by the organization, does not apply to “apostate” that scriptures refer to. I have not rejected God, Christ, or truth in the scriptures.  I have rejected the organization and its falsehoods. 

6 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

For God must deliver those who believe the Truth expressed by a Faithful Slave, who are Christ's Brothers. Mtt.24:45

Is 1975…TRUTH? How about the “generation” teaching, which one of those over the years, is truth? What about the teaching of a bloody slaughter during Armageddon committed by God and Christ, when you don't believe in hellfire. This is a hypocritical teaching.  

"Because they have forsaken me, and they have defaced this place, and they have made smoke offerings in it to other gods whom they have not known, they, nor their ancestors, nor the kings of Judah, and they have filled up this place with the blood of the innocent, and they have built the high places of Baal, to burn their children in the fire, burnt offerings to Baal, which I commanded not, and I ordered not, and it did not come to my mind."  Jer 19:4-5

 

"And they built the high places of Baal that are in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to present as offerings their sons and their daughters to Molech, which I had not commanded them, and it had not come to my mind to do this detestable thing in order to cause Judah to sin.”  Jer 32:35

So...why do JWs look forward to WT's version of Armageddon?

  I know of a faithful anointed, who would never use the label of “faithful and discreet slave” to pull anyone in, because that one knows Christ decides who is faithful to him or not. Matt 25:21  This one relies on Christ and Holy Spirit to dispense truth, not on “helpers”, writers, committees, buildings, money, but solely on the Father and Christ.  Zech 4:2-6,11-14; Rev 111-3

6 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

Are You One of Christ's Brothers dispensing the Truth In HARMONY with a Faithful Slave?

I believe I am, but I will  never again dispense so-called “truth” in harmony with a wicked slave.  Been there, done that.

6 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

The Good News being accomplished throughout the Earth is being lead by angelic direction, the sheep are directed to the Faithful Slave and the Waters of Truth.........................NOT TO YOU

I don’t look for followers.  I look to expose lies and reveal truth about the conditions of God’s people today, and about the Christ.    The “good news” at the end of the days is the “restoration of Jacob”.  Matt 17:3,11; Luke 1:16,17; Mal 4:6; Isa 49:6,8,9,12

6 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

WHO SHOULD CONFORM?

All of us, should question what doctrines are taught in the organization.  Our lives depend on obeying scripture.  Should we ever conform to lies?

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Oh! So close until you messed it up again!

Russell as indicated by his works “felt” Jesus “presence” in 1874, not that Jesus was invisibly here in 1874.

Therefore, Russell did have faith and trust in God that his calculations were “honest” and true. People here make it as though Russell had no divine intervention. I will ask people here to “prove” with honesty he didn’t, and that 1914 was just a figment of his imagination. I’ve seen it posted before, he must have been the luckiest man alive to hit a bullseye.

So far, zilch! Just keep in mind, the opposition declares, Russell himself “declared” the world would end in 1914. A theory that has been “debunked” by many for decades with Russell’s own words. Let’s not lose sight of that pearl, since it continues to be a false narrative for those that don’t understand and oppose the Watchtower in present times.

It matters because the opposition continues to dwell in it, and the Watchtower needs to continue to remind people of those false claims through their publications.

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19 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

wars, famine, earthquakes, crimes .... can't be considered  as "unusual"  for humankind, these are not "miracles". But everyday process in life of people and Earth. Even "preaching" is not a miracle, but repeated history

Before 1914 there were no wars with flame-throwers, airplanes, large submarines (one-man subs yes in civil war),  abundance of machine guns, tanks,  chemical warfare,  and the list goes on.  It was not called the Great War for nothing ; and later WW1 because of the new weaponized trend which started and involved coalitions which covered the world.  Millions died not hundreds of thousands like before. 

There were illnesses in all wars and times but the Spanish influenza was not just contained to regions like the black plague was in ancient times - it was world-wide and the deaths almost equaled the great war itself.

The preaching of the "kingdom"  in the entire world has never been done ever before because christendom are not preaching a government.  Matt 24:14 specifically says: "kingdom".   

12 hours ago, Kosonen said:

106 years is way long. And longer than any generation. 

Not really- Noah lived 650 years. The generation of the flood was 120 years....... and the bible itself compares the time of the flood with the time of the end. ..... so start complaining when 120 years has passed.

12 hours ago, Kosonen said:

But then it has been very prosperous times until recently. 

If you are sitting in safety in a rich country you can say this. Maybe your country is the one causing death and destruction in other countries to maintain its supremacy.

Hunger in one place after another due to more than 50 wars  in many places until terrorists took over.  I have lost count because Africa is in chaos and journalists do not write about this. Conventional warfare has been replaced by terrorism with daily death tolls of 60 or more. This is war-like. Do you see it in the news?

Europe sees daily stabbings of 3 or more,  since the new millennia we see wars in Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan (longest US war ever) Yemen and continuous civil war in Palestine, Israel, and the Arab spring in north Africa also comes to mind......

Apart  from internal party and racial strife in countries such as USA (this is going on in all countries on earth) we see again a build-up of terrible fear-inspiring weapons. 

The first modern technological wars which started in 1914 is being improved upon every time mankind goes to war. ..... it is like birth pains which are escalating. No wonder jehovah says - no flesh will be saved if he does not step in.  Will they start to use their weapons? We do not know...... all we do know it will be bad and it will be in this time period marked by its beginning in 1914. 

 

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9 hours ago, JW Insider said:

where the teaching about what Russell discerned in 1914 was importan

Russel was not the only one to discern 1914 as a date. All the other study groups he had been mixing with before also discerned this date. What most people do not get is that there was a general trend amongst the "new" bible study groups in this time to predict the end. They used all kinds of methods.... many drew a  pyramid to fit in time lines - even Russel. They believed the large pyramid was built by the Israelites and therefore they were sure it fitted in with bible prophecy. They were obsessed with dates. This is why they had some wrong dates included in the mix.

Seventh day adventists also pinpointed 1914 as the bible students did.  They did not understand all the facts about the year as we understand it today but they knew something big would happen.  They expected to go to heaven. 

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On 1/1/2020 at 2:10 AM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

FALSE premise that you are limited to do only one thing, or the other thing.

Remember the congregation mentioned in Revelation? It was neither hot nor cold.  Jehovah spat them out.  We must be decisive - not sit on the fence.

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2 hours ago, Arauna said:

Before 1914 there were no wars with flame-throwers, airplanes, large submarines (one-man subs yes in civil war),  abundance of machine guns, tanks,  chemical warfare,  and the list goes on.

When someone uses a stone instead of their hands, and instead of stone he uses a bronze sword and instead of a bronze sword he uses an iron sword .... this is the advancement of technology and causes wonder in the eyes of the beholder.

If Bible (and prophecies and events in the past) speaks in this manner, than all in this world are "unusual events" aka miracles from the very beginning and not only after 1914. (especially if individual see something for the first time)

By the way, first murder, first rape, first slavery ...etc.  were also unusual events when happened for the first time. And now these are everyday events for thousands of years already.

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@Arauna What you say is not so remarkable because the world's population has been able to grow thanks to better life conditions the past 100 years than before. The centuries before people died prematurely in larger scales from disease, violence, famine and wars.

Please check the link below. There are numbers of world's population through centuries

 

    Hello guest!

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 You reason like an evolutionist.  Everything remains the same to them with small incremental advancements.......... WW1 was a major advancement in war technology. If you have read any history books you would know that historians acknowledge that the world changed in 1914.  Even the society changed.  It crushed the class system in Europe.

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