1914

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

Quote "When we stand in front of the judgment seat of God, there isn’t going to be an elder holding our hand, or telling us how to think... "          No not then but there are NOW. 

@Anna  said  "Oh really? Well they are not holding mine, and I am sure I am not the only one whose hand they're not holding."

Oh dear. You can see the words that i made bold. 'an elder' 'telling us how to think'. But dear Anna choose to pick the word she wants to play with.  Elders telling congregants how to think goes along with that first scripture about being obedient and submissive or in fact being domineered and giving in under pressure. 

This can be applied to talks given in KH or at Assemblies. Congregants are expected to take all of it as being 'from God' and therefore being expected to submit to every bit of it.  To the point, and unfortunately I can't quote perfectly but, something about congregants being obedient even if the order given seems unreasonable. 

There we are Anna, I've just done to you as you did to me. I think it's called dissecting a conversation. 

Have a good day. 

 

[Witness]

4 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Quote @Anna  Ahh, the faults of the GB. Well this too has been brought out many times, that faults and mistakes will will happen, just as they did with Jesus’ disciples.

Did Jesus or the disciples ever put a date on a prophecy and then it didn't take place ? 

Excellent!

[TrueTomHarley]

 

19 hours ago, Kosonen said:

I am for what I believe to be true and I want to share that. And you are wellcome to examine my arguments and come with biblical counterarguments. That is how the true knowledge will increase.

It sounds like what you want is democracy in your place of worship—theocracy by the people, as though ‘if the people come to believe it, it must mean that God has so influenced them.’ It doesn’t work that way. 

“All your people will be taught by Jehovah,“ the verse says. It does not say that they will be taught by themselves. Who needs God if we are to be taught by ourselves? The problems you encounter with those elders reflects that they buy into the former (taught by Jehovah) rather than the latter (taught by the people).

Plainly, there must be some interface between the divine and the human. Integral to the faith of Jehovah’s Witnesses is that that interface is the successor of those who brought the truth to us in the first place—whoever fills the shoes of the “older men in Jerusalem.” That doesn’t mean that each person is not responsible for his/her own relationship with God, but it does mean that each is not an island unto himself. 

19 hours ago, Kosonen said:

But the problem with churches and WT organization is that you can not even present a different view point without disiplinary measures.

I know where you are coming from on this, but it is overstated. One doesn’t have to believe every little thing, though to be sure, one is encouraged to. But you don’t have to. What you cannot do is grab the wheel of the bus. Most elders will take your remarks below as evidence that you are trying to do this:

19 hours ago, Kosonen said:

When I told the elders that I have found some flaws in the WT explanations on Biblical doctrines the elders refused to even look at what I had found. That smells bad. It can only mean that they do not have counter arguments to many questions. 

The clear inference of these remarks is that you mean to tear the cover off this ‘faulty and maybe corrupt organization.’ Do you really think that you will be welcomed with open arms? Their entire faith is that Jehovah does not lead his people that way.

From the Reseach Guide commentary on Genesis 1:31–

“The fall from perfection explains why the human body, though marvelously designed, is susceptible to deformities and disease. Evolution is therefore incompatible with the Bible. Evolution presents modern man as an improving animal. The Bible presents modern man as the degenerating descendant of a perfect man.”

Because this is true, the “top-down” approach of the JW organization is what resonates with members. Yours smacks of the “bottom-up” approach, man as an “improving animal” developing powerful skills of thought to lift us all up by our own bootstraps.

@JW Insider says each Christian has an obligation to examine the foundation of his faith. This is true, but means of examination differ from person to person. For most people, the only examination one must make of their vehicle is to observe that it gets them from place to place, to bring it in for cursory inspection each year, and to accept the fact that, being imperfect, it will require maintenance and repair from time to time. There will be a few mechanically minded owners that will go the extra mile, tear down the engine to examine closely each component, and in doing so, might occasionally forestall a problem, but this is hardly something to be expected of the average person, even if they are the elders that you want to run your thoughts by.

I will concede that our elders might be prone at times to read ”false positives,” and it would be better if they didn’t. So? Doctors read and act upon false positives all the time and no one doubts their competency on that account. Today elders see direction on avoiding those who raise sects or divisions. (Titus 3:10, 2 Timothy 2:17, 1 Cor 1:10) and might at times overreact. Maybe they should rise to the occasion and “snatch from the fire those who have doubts.” Maybe. However the tone of your remarks indicate that you have more than doubts—you have assertions and conclusions that you want to debate with them. We are not a debating people. We are the type that waits to be taught by Jehovah.

I’m not thrilled about any number of things in the Witness organization. From time to time I drop one or two of them in this forum. I would prefer that some did feel inclined to discuss with you your points—at least until you became so insistent upon them that it became clear to both that your home lay elsewhere. Still, I keep things in perspective. The good of the JW organization far outweighs the bad. Regarding my pet peeves, I look around to see if there is anyone accomplishing the acts of faith that JWs do minus those peeves. (Please don’t come back with ‘acts of faith’ are not the important thing—or if you do, take it up with Luke for writing ‘Acts of the Apostles’ when he should have written ‘Faith of the Apostles.)  If there was, I would go there. But there is not—not even remotely close—so that I even begin to reassess my pet peeves. I am imperfect, too. Maybe if an organization was structured around my peeves, it would promptly implode. So I accept congregation policy and discipline—I may not even think it is right in every occasion and particular, but such is the nature of working with people. I’ve learned how to yield and how to cooperate. I try to get my head around them, rather than insisting that they get their head around me.

19 hours ago, Kosonen said:

I am for what I believe to be true and I want to share that. And you are wellcome to examine my arguments and come with biblical counterarguments. 

This strikes me as a remarkable lack of faith. Ought God not be able to unite people? Ought he not be able to get them to cooperate, and in so doing, magnify their acts of worship? Yet you stand as an island hailing ships passing by.

You thereby have no need of applying the above verses on avoiding divisions, for you stand by yoursef. You have no need to apply the countless verses as to how to get along, because you make no effort to get along. Where are the meetings of Hebrews 10:24 that you are not to forsake? Where is the “in” of Haggai 2:7 that the precious things of the nations are to come in to? You have no need, or even opportunity, of showing love for the brothers, since you have no brothers—you have separated from them—to God’s dishonor. Maybe he will provide a “true anointed” (essentially from scratch) within ten years.

Hypercritcal people, such as your words suggest you might be one of, are a nightmare in the congregation. They are constantly causing contentions over matters great and small. Yet, they are stumbled at the drop of a pin, and cause chaos in that way, too. The GB and elders work tirelessly to readjust such persons. But if they absolutely will not change, it is better in my view if they depart. They cause nothing but trouble.

They need to get their heads around, and more importantly, their hearts around, the huge forgiveness Jesus afforded Peter for failure at a critical time, and yet even after this, Peter failed in a colossal manner, buckling to peer pressure that even some schoolchildren would not buckle to—the matter of avoiding Gentile Christians when the Jewish Christians came calling (stumbling even Barnabas)—and yet he continued to serve as a pillar of the congregation.

It’s no good to be an island. The time for such passed long ago. Will your theme text be that of Paul Simon?

I've built walls
A fortress deep and mighty
That none may penetrate
I have no need of friendship, friendship causes pain
It's laughter and it's loving I disdain
I am a rock
I am an island

Don't talk of love
But I've heard the words before
It's sleeping in my memory
I won't disturb the slumber of feelings that have died
If I never loved I never would have cried
I am a rock
I am an island.

[Srecko Sostar]

3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

They are constantly causing contentions over matters great and small.

When G. Jackson explained before ARC how every JW in the World has own Bible and individual power for understanding/reasoning, which allowed him/her to not listen and obey what GB released, thought in printed way, video way or e-way, because that somehow contradict to his/her understanding/conscience..... does he talking about great and/or small matters or he speaking about some other sort of valuation about things/subjects that coming from GB?? 

"Causing contentions". Do you have in mind only public contentions between two or more persons, or you allowing also internal contentions - inside person?! 

[Srecko Sostar]

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

“The fall from perfection explains why the human body, though marvelously designed, is susceptible to deformities and disease. Evolution is therefore incompatible with the Bible. Evolution presents modern man as an improving animal. The Bible presents modern man as the degenerating descendant of a perfect man.”

Because this is true, the “top-down” approach of the JW organization is what resonates with members.

I think how something is wrong, confusing here. WT Society and GB using Bible verses how spiritual "evolution" is something what took place from 1919, when FDS and later GB start to "multiplicate knowledge".  This multiplications and clarifications and changes of doctrines happening because light getting brighter (??!!). This is sort of evidence, how "spiritual improving (animal) human" going against original fall of perfection described in Bible. :)) 

...The Bible presents modern man as the degenerating descendant of a perfect man.”

According to WT standpoint, modern JW members not degenerating (spiritually) as descendants of Adam and Eve but all other human today does. Maybe JW's are under physical/body degeneration as all other human. But in sense of religiosity, spirituality and conscience and mental health, as i can read from your and WT context, JW members are nearest to idea of Evolution that speaking of "improving animal". :))

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Because this is true, the “top-down” approach of the JW organization is what resonates with members

What is true? How WT JWorg and GB ("top-down" system) are closest to Evolution presents or to Bible presents ?

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

Quote @TrueTomHarley  "It sounds like what you want is democracy in your place of worship—theocracy by the people, as though ‘if the people come to believe it, it must mean that God has so influenced them.’ It doesn’t work that way. "

Um, I think that is what JW Org has got.  8 men and a writing department have come to believe it, it must mean that God has so influenced them. But as you say, it doesn't work that way.  Your GB and it's Writing dept' are not inspired by holy spirit, they only have their own ideas to go by. 

Quote TTH "Plainly, there must be some interface between the divine and the human. Integral to the faith of Jehovah’s Witnesses is that that interface is the successor of those who brought the truth to us in the first place—whoever fills the shoes of the “older men in Jerusalem.” "

Oh no, are you now trying to say that the GB are descendants of the Apostles. Fail Tom. 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  22 hours ago, Kosonen said:

But the problem with churches and WT organization is that you can not even present a different view point without disiplinary measures.

Quote TTH "I know where you are coming from on this, but it is overstated. One doesn’t have to believe every little thing, though to be sure, one is encouraged to. But you don’t have to...."

Oh yes you do. For two reasons.

1. If you dare to differ, you will be D/fed for 'causing a division in the congregation'

2. You will get this scripture thrown in your face. 

Hebrews 13 v 17 

⁷  Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among youz and be submissive,

Quote TTH "For most people, the only examination one must make of their vehicle is to observe that it gets them from place to place, ... " 

It's not the vehicle, it's the bad drivers, the GB and it's teachings, and the Elder policemen. The GB certainly go from place to place but not in the right direction and with no guidance. 

Quote TTH  "Maybe he will provide a “true anointed” (essentially from scratch) within ten years. "

Nice that you are keeping this in mind Tom. But you keep wanting to change it though, to misquote me, but ok if it keeps you happy................ True Anointed inside 5 years ,then another 5 years to gather people in, then Judgement. It is going to take at least another 3 years to clean out the JW Org, because American courts / authorities seems to have a deal going down with the GB whereby the JW Org isn't being completely investigated  by whomever has the authority. It seem that other 'civilised' countries have investigations either done or in process, so why not the USA ? Must be a deal going down  

[Kosonen]

@TrueTomHarley I am amused by how far you have misundertood me. I can tell you why I spoke with the elders. And got serious consequences.

I am motivated by the essence of Jesus' teaching and following the example of prophets and apostles. But the same thing repeats all over again. Those who try to bring truth are persecuted, always. 

The essence of Jesus' message is to grow in the accurate understanding of all the biblical truth and make spiritual progress. I think we all can agree on that. 

So I am here to help you and everyone else to learn something new. Shouldn't you be glad to have an opportunity for that? I am not telling anyone to leave the congregation. And I appreciate the NWT jw.org provides online. And I am glad for all the truths I have learned at the meetings and from the wt litterature. I am keeping those things. 

But I can not resist a more accurate knowledge that I keep growing in and such things should not be hidden and kept in secret. That would amount to digging and hiding the talant Jesus gave. 

When I have to chose to please Jesus as Lord or WT organization, the choice is quite simple in fact. 

[Anna]

I am continuing from your earlier post.....

On 1/3/2020 at 2:26 PM, 4Jah2me said:

If a congregant has thoughts that the GB and JW Org are wrong, and if they prove to themselves from scripture, they have to make a choice. Stay in the ORG, in which case then they are serving the GB / Org, or, leave.  

I think you suggested that a person should do their own research but keep quiet about it. 

Well it depends on what it is and how they feel about it. If a person disagrees with the teaching of 1914 for example, then he has to decide how important that is to him. He can write to the branch, as many have done. If they don't like the reply, or don't agree with it, they have to again decide how important it is to them. Not everything is black and white and there may be something that you or they have overlooked. Is 1914 a life or death question? In my opinion it isn't, but in someone else's opinion it might be. And they may feel that they cannot continue being JW because of it. We don't have to go around telling everyone, because it is a personal opinion. Even if we can find "proof" that we are right, we should respect the opinions of others, just like we would like others to respect out opinion. With something like 1914, we really need to decide the importance of it in light of the big picture. If JW'S have got 1914 wrong, how does that affect how we view everything else we have learned from that same source? Remember, mistakes will be made. I read some of your earlier posts where you are actually defending what you have learned from JWs (God and Jesus being separate, there being no fiery hell, the promise of an earthly paradise, the last days etc.)

On 1/3/2020 at 2:26 PM, 4Jah2me said:

Quote " If we discern it’s wrong direction then we act on our own behalf, and not tell others what to do, because everyone else has a Bible too."

Now this is where @Arauna will start to say that i 'misuse' scripture. BUT you @Anna are saying use the Bible myself. And thereby lies a contradiction. I can pray for spiritual help and read my bible and come to a decision as to what a scripture means to me. BUT @Arauna will tell me I am misusing the scriptures. Hence, I've said on here so many times before that ONLY the true Anointed will  know truth from the scriptures. Why ? Obviously because we can all have our own opinions as to what each scripture means. 

It is true, we can have our own opinion on what a scripture means. But usually that is an exception if the scripture is read in context of the chapter AND the whole Bible. A few scriptures can be ambiguous though. Hopefully, before we signed up to become one of JWs we have already cleared that up and accepted the interpretation of JWs.

On 1/3/2020 at 2:26 PM, 4Jah2me said:

Quote " We already talked about why there is no need for the anointed to form some kind of special club, just for the anointed. "

I think you've been listening to / reading toooooo much from @Arauna . This seems to be her crazy excuse.  NO ONE is suggesting a 'special club' for the true Anointed. What i did suggest is that they could be in contact with each other Earthwide, which the GB do not want. My suggestion would NOT take those Anointed ones out of their congregations. 

How do you suggest they should be in contact earth wide?

On 1/3/2020 at 2:26 PM, 4Jah2me said:

Quote " The reason for that is because we are all one flock "

New International Version  John 10 v 16
I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

The Anointed are not the same as the Earthly Class. The sooner people get this through their heads the better for everyone. The Anointed are the BODY OF CHRIST. Do you not understand that God has a special use for them even now. Otherwise God could anoint a person when they were on their deathbed. That Body of Christ has a right to communicate with each other. 

Yes, you are making a good point there. However in practice, as you know, most anointed are scattered throughout the earth. In the days before the internet communication, to be of any value, would have been difficult. Today, this is surely a lot easier, but not everyone is able to communicate via the internet. Not only that, and this is the point I was trying to make earlier, how would one know if someone was the "true anointed". I joked, and said any True Tom Harley could claim they were anointed. Can you imagine how that would work? It could become a total mess if some "false anointed" communicated whatever they liked. How would one sift what was genuine from what wasn't genuine?  

On 1/3/2020 at 2:26 PM, 4Jah2me said:

That Body of Christ has a right to communicate with each other.  Your GB wants to stop that happening. 

The GB is not concerned if the anointed communicate with each other., It is everyone's right to communicate with all of the brotherhood. The GB is concerned that the whole brotherhood remains united.

 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

Quote @Anna " Hopefully, before we signed up to become one of JWs we have already cleared that up and accepted the interpretation of JWs. "

A person can get baptised at 10 years of age. That person can then live another 70 years. = 80 years old. Don't you know that GB / JW Org "interpretation " of scriptures can change a dozen times in 70 years. In other words, 'This is not what i signed up for'. 

quote " How do you suggest they should be in contact earth wide? "

You answered this one your self next para' down. Quote " In the days before the internet communication, to be of any value, would have been difficult. Today, this is surely a lot easier, but not everyone is able to communicate via the internet. "

Actually telephones and fax machines have been around a longggggggg time. and people used to write letters too. 

" I joked, and said any True Tom Harley could claim they were anointed. Can you imagine how that would work? It could become a total mess ...  "

I thought that was funny, but frightening.... 

Quote  "The GB is not concerned if the anointed communicate with each other., It is everyone's right to communicate with all of the brotherhood. "

But the GB via the W/t did say that the Anointed would not / should not communicate with each other earthwide.  I wish i had the W/t to quote it from. It became a topic on here a long time ago. 

This has to be your best though :- 

Quote " if some "false anointed" communicated whatever they liked. How would one sift what was genuine from what wasn't genuine?  "

So tell me Anna, how does 'one' sift what is false from what is genuine ?

Because your GB are not inspired by holy spirit and they and their Writing Dept' just write what they think is right. And we needn't go into false prophecy and dates need we. And misuse of scripture such as 'superior authority' and changes of teachings / belief such as 'the blood issue'. But congregants still follow like sheep, following 'false anointed' that tell lies. 

And you would be concerned about the anointed emailing each other earthwide ? 

[TrueTomHarley]

7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

does he talking about great and/or small matters or he speaking about some other sort of valuation

That is a 6 on the scale of matters.

7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

I think how something is wrong, confusing here. 

It is perfectly clear, or ought be.

4 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

True Anointed inside 5 years ,then another 5 years to gather people in,

I have read of other 5-year plans in history. I had imagined they were things of the past.

4 hours ago, Kosonen said:

I am motivated by the essence of Jesus' teaching and following the example of prophets and apostles

Who isn’t?

4 hours ago, Kosonen said:

So I am here to help you and everyone else to learn 

Yes

4 hours ago, Anna said:

I joked, and said any True Tom Harley could claim they were anointed. 

Unlikely.

3 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

I joked, and said any True Tom Harley could claim they were anointed....I thought that was funny, but frightening.... 

You may rest easy, then The present understanding of the GB comes to your rescue. You are correct that anyone can claim to be anointed—such has always been the case—but as you have pointed out, they are bound and gagged and forbidden to communicate until made a member of the GB. Since only a lifetime of full time service  in work and venues more lowly than those whom they will later take the lead is a prerequisite, I have no chance of getting in—even if I were anointed.

[Arauna]

8 hours ago, Anna said:

been listening to / reading toooooo much from @Arauna .

Correct, you need not listen to me but do not use me as an excuse either.  You all are totally free to do and believe as you like.

Just be aware - there are people on this forum who do not use scripture in context and sometimes use it as a weapon for open warfare against JWs/GB.  Their intentions are open and clear in what they say.  RECOGNIZE it, when they accuse us of being false prophets, controlling,  etc.  

There are also the more sophisticated ones who use philosophies of this world in their reasonings. Recognize this as well.  Every person will only be accounrable for him/herself. 

 

 

 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

Quote @Arauna Every person will only be accountable for him/herself.

This should be true. But if a person is not a JW, or if a person was a JW but has since left the JW Org because they no longer believe the JW teachings, or because they have decided that JW Org is 'unclean', then according to the GB / JW Org, that person had 'no chance' anyway. 

Because the JW teaching is that one MUST BE a Baptised JW to 'be saved'.

So do you believe that, as you say 'Every person will only be accountable for him/herself.' ?

Or do you believe it depends on whether you are a Baptised JW or not ?  Or both ? 

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Quote "there are people on this forum who do not use scripture in context ..."

Ever since Chapter and Verse of the Bible has been numbered, they have been used out of context. 

It sometimes makes me think that the devil was involved in such numbering. 

The only time it is in context is when the 'book' / 'letter' / writing is read from start to finish. Just taking a scripture out of a letter of Paul for instance, makes it out of context against how it was originally written. 

A prime example of taking scripture out of context is the 2 Timothy 3 v 16 " All scripture is inspired of God... "  Written in 65 (NWT), so written before 1, 2, 3, of John and before Revelation, and Paul would not have thought his writings as scripture. Add to this that a Bible complete had not be constructed at the time. 

However the JW Org use that scripture in Timothy to refer to the whole Bible as being inspired, where as it would seem that Paul would have been meaning the Hebrew Scriptures. 

So when you talk about out of context, you can easily apply that to your GB and it JW Org.