1914

[Arauna]

51 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

JW Org use that scripture in Timothy to refer to the whole Bible as being inspired,

Correct me if I am wrong? So you do  NOT believe that the bible is inspired?  

I quote 1 TIm 3:16 which you say JWs misquote: (my capitals)

"ALL  Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness,  17 so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work."

 

[JW Insider]

17 hours ago, Anna said:

Well it depends on what it is and how they feel about it. If a person disagrees with the teaching of 1914 for example, then he has to decide how important that is to him. He can write to the branch, as many have done.

The question was basically about whether a person should do their own research but then just keep quiet about it if they proved to themselves something different than they had accepted at baptism. I thought your answer was excellent.

Those of us who remain in the organization after researching the teachings on 1914 are remaining because this doctrine, even if completely wrong, does not negate the good work the organization is doing for the world in focusing on both the current and future benefits of God's kingdom, taking a stand on God's side, and offering the opportunity to join in with others who also want to share that message with the whole world. Were Peter, James and John still being used in the congregations around Jerusalem and Judea, even though they still had long-standing prejudices and misunderstandings about God's purpose for the Gentiles? (Acts 15 & 21; Gal 1 & 2) Of course they were!

Did teachings coming from those same men stumble others? (Galatians, Barnabas, etc.) According to Paul, people were definitely stumbled by the influence these brothers, but Paul continued to work with them and cooperate with them. Our decision to continue working with the Witnesses should also still make sense if we believe there is no other group that teaches what we believe about various Bible teachings that are important to us (neutrality, conscientious objection two war, teachings about morality/Trinity/hell/soul, etc.).

Also, there are those who might think that it is hypocritical to find something wrong in our personal research and then merely keep quiet about it. I'd say that we would be wrong to bring it up in the context of our congregations. This might cause divisions, and might influence people to choose a side based on "human factors" (who debates the best, who "sounds" more loyal, who "sounds" more intelligent, who has more human authority, the number of people who agree or disagree, etc., etc.)

But, if we recall Matthew 18, the most important thing is to go to the source of the issue. It's not the people in our congregation, or even the elders in our congregation. They are not the source of this teaching. In this case we should go to the brothers who are the publishers and promoters of this teaching, to see what they say in defense of the teaching. As you say, we may not be satisfied, or find that they don't answer, or won't answer, or can't answer. Then we can make up our mind how we might still try to absolve our own conscience on the matter, or make a defense of our own faith on the matter. But we still need NOT go to our local congregation about it, or try to find persons there who will side with us. This will still create unnecessary contentions. It will make it appear that it is a matter of personal ego to be right or prove others wrong. If it were a matter of life and death, this might be different.

57 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Correct me if I am wrong? So you do  NOT believe that the bible is inspired?  

I quote 1 TIm 3:16 which you say JWs misquote: (my capitals)

If this is the same argument that John Butler often made, then the point is that the context is only about the Hebrew Scriptures, not the Christian Greek Scriptures, much of which had not been written yet. This is already mentioned however in our own publications:

*** ws17 December p. 16 Parents—Help Your Children Become “Wise for Salvation” ***
“YOU HAVE KNOWN THE HOLY WRITINGS”
3 The apostle Paul first visited Lystra in the year 47. This is probably when Timothy, who may have been a teenager, learned about Jesus’ teachings. He applied what he learned, and two years later he began traveling with Paul. About 16 years after that, Paul wrote to Timothy: “Continue in the things that you learned and were persuaded to believe, knowing from whom you learned them and that from infancy you have known the holy writings [the Hebrew Scriptures], which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.” (2 Timothy 3:14, 15) Notice that Paul said that Timothy (1) knew the holy writings, (2) was persuaded to believe the things he learned, and (3) became wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. . . . Timothy knew the Hebrew Scriptures “from infancy,” that is, from the time he was very young

The addition of the term "[the Hebrew Scriptures]" is in the original quotation, even though it was put in brackets. However, the Watchtower's emphasis has always been on the fact that since most of these additional book by apostles and other mature men had already been written that the reference is to all the books both OT and NT.

*** w63 11/1 pp. 652-653 pars. 14-15 The Book of “Everlasting Good News” is Beneficial ***
Consequently, when Paul wrote his final letter to Timothy and said: “All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial,” there were doubtless twenty-one inspired books, all addressed to Christians, in addition to the thirty-nine books of the Hebrew Scriptures. (2 Tim. 3:16) Today Paul’s expression “All Scripture is inspired of God” includes the writings of Jude and John, for these also were written under inspiration of God’s holy spirit and were added to the collection of inspired Christian writings, to complete the inspired Holy Bible.
15 Today, therefore, “all Scripture” includes the sixty-six books of the Bible, as it is now divided up in order.

 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

Quote @Arauna  " Correct me if I am wrong? So you do  NOT believe that the bible is inspired?  "

As usual you take things out of context. Deliberately of course, I know that. 

However @JW Insider has answered it. I was of course talking about the scripture being taken out of context, because YOU mentioned people on here doing just that. 

The apostle Paul was referring to the Hebrew Scriptures, as @JW Insider made clear.... BUT, where I disagree with JWI is that the Greek scriptures, were not considered inspired back in the days of the Apostles. Do you think Paul would have considered his letters to the congregations as inspired ? Would Paul have written to Timothy that His own letters were inspired ? I don't think so. In my personal opinion Paul was only referring to the Hebrew Scriptures that he knew Timothy was aware of. 

On 1/8/2020 at 11:17 AM, 4Jah2me said:

Quote @Anna  Ahh, the faults of the GB. Well this too has been brought out many times, that faults and mistakes will will happen, just as they did with Jesus’ disciples.

Did Jesus or the disciples ever put a date on a prophecy and then it didn't take place ?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Did Jesus or the disciples ever put a date on a prophecy and

Quote @Arauna   "Jesus gave them signs to recognize when the Roman's would be there in the holy place.......they had to be aware of the first Roman invasion to know they must flee before the second invasion would come..... but both if you believe we must not look at signs...... it is all spiritual... " 

LOOK AT THE TOP STATEMENT WHICH I WROTE. NOW LOOK AT THE QUOTE @Arauna USED TO ANSWER FROM 

Do you see a difference ?  @Arauna has deliberately missed words off the end of the sentence. She continues to misquote and chop words off sentences just to completely change the meaning of things. That, unfortunately, is JW practice. Misquotes and misapplication. Twisting things people write and say. Hence it is not possible at time to have sensible debate with such ones, as what they do is tantamount to deliberately telling lies. 

[Srecko Sostar]

5 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

it is in context

You opened interesting subject. Single book or letter, that was later collected, making each and separate context. Content of each of them speaking about specific things. Connecting historical events that each and separate book describing, can bring some wider picture about events and persons involved. Human influence was involved in collecting and choosing. If we can make general agreement how SOME books and letters from the past period of time that was created in particular part of Earth, are inspired, we have NOT proof for claim, how collecting and choosing particular books and letters are under inspiration of same holy spirit. We can believe it is.

WHY and HOW? WT Society teaching for a long time is, how God stopped to inspire people with holy spirit, even own servants in 1 century. In 1 century.

When people started to collect OT books? Who was "inspired" to collect Hebrew writings in a format we have it today? When people started to collect NT writings? Who was "inspired" to collect Greek writings in a format we have it today? 

Context of each old writings is at first, context for itself. When people started to connect OT and NT writings in one "context", did they been "inspired" for such work? If they are, than WT Society wrongly claiming how influence of holy spirit stopped in 1 century. We would "expect" how "inspiration, guiding by holy spirit" is needed for such important, vitally important task. What we know is how Pope and bishops in Catholic church done that later on Council of Nicea in A.D. 325 and the First Council of Constantinople in A.D. 381, which decided what should be included in the Bible, after few decades of debates. 

WT Society explaining how JHVH is guardian of his Word and how He made influence on what will be chosen as His Word. Can we conclude how Pope and bishops were "inspired" or at least "guided by spirit" when doing that? If yes, what is difference when GB claim today how they are also "guided by spirit"? 

When we say how we must using "Bible context" to understand Bible, is not that self limiting? Because Bible text was primarily made inside historical context of time and people lived before. Our time and people making new sort of context. For example, blood ban have today very different context than that in days when it was written about. In this issue Bible context didn't bring any explanation or future ban about medical technology and using of blood in this context. Because, primarily Bible context was - not to eat blood as a food. Blood is not a food. This is first and perhaps only Bible context. 

What GB done about "blood context" is visible in very strange explanations about medico-religious using of "main components of blood" and "blood fractions". It seem how they agree with my idea of not to be self limiting when we talking about "Bible context" :))). But please, how this medical, scientific understanding about blood contributing to religious part of "Bible context"?

[Arauna]

7 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Add to this that a Bible complete had not be constructed at the time. 

You have not answered my question - it seems you do not accept that the scriptures that were written later are inspired?  

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

You have not answered my question - it seems you do not accept that the scriptures that were written later are inspired?  

As I'm not inspired of Holy Spirit I can't answer that question. The Revelation of course was inspired as basically it would not exist otherwise. But as to whether all of Paul's writings were inspired, I don't know.  

My point was though that I don't think Paul saw his letters as being inspired when he wrote them. He wrote in a rather blunt and direct way. 

@Srecko Sostar  has some good points / questions about the 'gathering together' of the writings of the Greek / NT. I don't have memory, though i would once have known, about whom gathered Greek writings together. I think @Srecko Sostar has written that it was the Catholics that gathered those writings together and he asks, 'Did those people have the guidance of Holy Spirit' to collect the correct writings together. I've heard of other writings that were not included.  

But I'll repeat again, that scripture in 2 Timothy 3 v 16 saying 'All scripture is inspired ... '  was written before some of the other Greek writings. And as JWI pointed out, when in context it proves it refers to the Hebrew Scriptures. So if the GB / W/t / JW Org pretend that it refers to the whole Bible then that is being dishonest. I've known JWs use it to mean the complete Bible and of course most people who haven't studied the Bible will not know. However it shows dishonesty. 

[Anna]

9 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Those of us who remain in the organization after researching the teachings on 1914 are remaining because this doctrine, even if completely wrong, does not negate the good work the organization is doing for the world in focusing on both the current and future benefits of God's kingdom, taking a stand on God's side, and offering the opportunity to join in with others who also want to share that message with the whole world.

Exactly! Thank you.

23 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I joked, and said any True Tom Harley could claim they were anointed. Anna

I meant any Tom, Dick and Harry 😀

[Anna]

On 1/8/2020 at 4:20 PM, 4Jah2me said:

Quote @Anna " Hopefully, before we signed up to become one of JWs we have already cleared that up and accepted the interpretation of JWs. "

A person can get baptised at 10 years of age. That person can then live another 70 years. = 80 years old. Don't you know that GB / JW Org "interpretation " of scriptures can change a dozen times in 70 years. In other words, 'This is not what i signed up for'. 

You make it sound like fundamental teachings have changed. I wonder what would cause someone to actually say “this is not what I have signed up for”. Maybe you have a few ideas?

On 1/8/2020 at 4:20 PM, 4Jah2me said:

Quote " if some "false anointed" communicated whatever they liked. How would one sift what was genuine from what wasn't genuine?  "

So tell me Anna, how does 'one' sift what is false from what is genuine ?

Because your GB are not inspired by holy spirit and they and their Writing Dept' just write what they think is right. And we needn't go into false prophecy and dates need we. And misuse of scripture such as 'superior authority' and changes of teachings / belief such as 'the blood issue'. But congregants still follow like sheep, following 'false anointed' that tell lies. 

I think you are missing the whole point of the Christian congregation. Let’s say that today all the anointed communicated with each other, and each brought something to the table, and each agreed or disagreed on something, which teaching or thought would they decide to stick to? Well, I hate to tell you, but you’ve missed the bus by nearly 2000 years. It’s already been done with the apostles. It’s already all there in writing, in the scriptures for all to see. When the first Bible students got together under Russell, all they did was peel away years of false teachings of Christendom and exposed the grass roots of the Truth.There has really been nothing much new since then, only some views became clearer, and a few were seen as unnecessarily complicated (such as types and antitypes) and were removed altogether .

Paul said about the anointed in Ephesians  4:11 “And he gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelizers, some as shepherds and teachers, 12  with a view to the readjustment of the holy ones, for ministerial work, to build up the body of the Christ, until we all attain to the oneness of the faith and of the accurate knowledge of the Son of God, to being a full-grown man, attaining the measure of stature that belongs to the fullness of the Christ”.

Paul shows that some anointed were readjusted (trained) by the other anointed, so that ALL of them together  would attain to the oneness of the faith and accurate knowledge.  So it looks like not all the anointed were given equal tasks. Some were shepherds and teachers of the other anointed, some evidently not. But as an end result, they were all united.

That was the whole point of the Christian congregation, which in those days must have represented the body of Christ because it was composed exclusively of the anointed. Today, the congregation, or body of Christ, remains undisturbed, as Jesus is still their head and the head of the congregation. But it will not be made whole until all the anointed are in heaven with Christ. With the dwindling numbers of anointed, these congregations have been filled with those who are not members of the body of Christ, but there is unity, and it is still Christ’s congregation.  But somehow, you, and @Witness, imply that it is necessary that there should be a segregation of those who are anointed, and those who are not anointed. I cannot find that idea anywhere in the scripture.

So, what do you think your “true anointed” would bring to the table today that hasn’t already been established by Jesus, and recorded by those who wrote the Christian Greek scriptures?  I am sure you must have something in mind. Something that would help all of Jehovah’s Witnesses today.  What is it?

On 1/8/2020 at 4:20 PM, 4Jah2me said:

But the GB via the W/t did say that the Anointed would not / should not communicate with each other earthwide.  I wish i had the W/t to quote it from.

Was in the Jan 2016 WT, but here is the latest, Jan 2020 basically saying the same thing in par 7, as the 2016 WT

https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/watchtower-study-january-2020/we-will-go-with-you/

It is not saying anointed ones cannot communicate with each other. It is saying that they wouldn't want to separate themselves from the rest of the congregation.

On 1/8/2020 at 4:20 PM, 4Jah2me said:

And you would be concerned about the anointed emailing each other earthwide ? 

I am not concerned about it because the true anointed have no need to seek each other in that way. From what I have seen they enjoy the fellowship and mutual encouragement of brothers and sisters of the earthly class while still on earth, and they look forward to being united physically with Christ and the other anointed when they are finally in heaven. 

 

P.S. I need to comment on something you mentioned in one of your previous posts. You said:   "The Anointed are not the same as the Earthly Class. The sooner people get this through their heads the better for everyone. The Anointed are the BODY OF CHRIST. Do you not understand that God has a special use for them even now. Otherwise God could anoint a person when they were on their deathbed".

The problem with that is that the anointed do not fully become the body of Christ until they are in heaven. While on earth they have that hope. But they are still sinful just like the earthly class. Although they have been given the invitation to heaven, their being anointed is no guarantee that they will be there. They will only be there if they have endured faithful to the end. So yes, their final sealing happens when they are on their deathbed. (........ prove yourself faithful even to death, and I will give you the crown of life". Rev 2:10). Some who were anointed in Paul's day fell away, the same can happen today. Paul, when he knew his death was imminent was able to say: "I have fought the fine fight, I have run the race to the finish, I have observed the faith.  From this time on, there is reserved for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will give me as a reward in that day" 

[Witness]

3 hours ago, Anna said:

So, what do you think your “true anointed” would bring to the table today that hasn’t already been established by Jesus, and recorded by those who wrote the Christian Greek scriptures?  I am sure you must have something in mind. Something that would help all of Jehovah’s Witnesses today.  What is it?

The true Temple of God - completed in the Body of Christ.  1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17; 2 Cor 6:16; Eph 2:20-22; Zech 4:6-10

[Anna]

10 hours ago, Witness said:

The true Temple of God - completed in the Body of Christ.  1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17; 2 Cor 6:16; Eph 2:20-22; Zech 4:6-10

In each of the letters, the members of a congregation were addressed (Galatia, Corinth, Ephesus etc.). All the members of those congregations were anointed. They physically gathered together. Today, (if someone wants to do the math) most congregations are made up of the earthly class. Those who were members of the congregations while Peter and Paul etc. were alive are in heaven now, waiting for the full number of anointed to be sealed so that the body of Christ is physically not just spiritually whole. This won't happen until ALL the anointed are in heaven. They will then rule with Christ. Those anointed remnant who are still on earth today, are physically scattered over all the earth. But they are united with Christ regardless, as long as they remain faithful. Their being faithful is not contingent on them physically gathering or communicating with the other remnant on earth is it?

And you haven't actually answered the question.

[Srecko Sostar]

22 minutes ago, Anna said:

Those who were members of the congregations while Peter and Paul etc. were alive are in heaven now, waiting for the full number of anointed to be sealed so that the body of Christ is physically not just spiritually whole.

I just ask: Are they in the heaven now?  And what is evidence how they were resurrected in spiritual bodies in the 1914 (as i can recall) as WT Society made claim? 

14 hours ago, Anna said:

On 1/8/2020 at 10:20 PM, 4Jah2me said:

And you would be concerned about the anointed emailing each other earthwide ? 

I am not concerned about it because the true anointed have no need to seek each other in that way.

Perhaps most of them are quite old today, and many old people, as we know, in general have no interest and motivation for digital technologies:  whatsapp groups, facebook, google ..... :))) 

[Witness]

1 hour ago, Anna said:

In each of the letters, the members of a congregation were addressed (Galatia, Corinth, Ephesus etc.). All the members of those congregations were anointed. They physically gathered together. Today, (if someone wants to do the math) most congregations are made up of the earthly class. Those who were members of the congregations while Peter and Paul etc. were alive are in heaven now, waiting for the full number of anointed to be sealed so that the body of Christ is physically not just spiritually whole. This won't happen until ALL the anointed are in heaven. They will then rule with Christ. Those anointed remnant who are still on earth today, are physically scattered over all the earth. But they are united with Christ regardless, as long as they remain faithful. Their being faithful is not contingent on them physically gathering or communicating with the other remnant on earth is it?

And you haven't actually answered the question.

In the last days

the mountain of the Lord’s temple will be established
    as the highest of the mountains;
it will be exalted above the hills,
    and all nations will stream to it.

³ Many peoples will come and say,

‘Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
    to the temple of the God of Jacob.
He will teach us his ways,
    so that we may walk in his paths.’
The law will go out from Zion,
    the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.  Isa 2:1-3 

Do you believe we are in “the last days”?   Do be you believe that each anointed is a “living stone” of the Temple of God?    1 Pet 2:5,9

Jesus is the chief cornerstone of the foundation of Temple; the apostles and prophets are also built into that foundation. Eph 2:20-22  Already sealed into it.  Each one who proves through their works, that they are faithful and obedient only to God and Christ, are also sealed into the Temple.  1 Cor 3:10  We have record of this sealing while faithful anointed were still on the earth.   2 Cor 1:22; Eph 4:30; Rev 5:9,10

None of this scriptural proof is excused away and dissolved, with the advent of the organization. 

Paul, to every anointed down to today:

¹⁶ Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit lives among you? ¹⁷ If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy that person; for God’s temple is sacred, and you together are that temple.

Because the anointed are “scattered”, not unified as they were in the first century, the Temple building in the organization has come to a halt.  Why today, is it necessary for them to remain apart?  If the organization truly was blessed by God, it would facilitate the Temple “progress”.  The anointed would stand out as visible, as the true Zion, instead of the visible “Gentile” elder body, of the visible “Jehovah’s organization”.    God would make sure of it. 

 

‘As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down.’

⁷ ‘Teacher,’ they asked, ‘when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?’

⁸ He replied: ‘Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, “I am he,” and, “The time is near.” Do not follow them. ⁹ When you hear of wars and uprisings, do not be frightened. These things must happen first, but the end will not come right away.’  Luke 21:5-9

The Beast/organization of Rev 13:1,2 “makes war” against the Temple members – the saints. A false “messiah”/false “christ” designates that all anointed must remain “scattered”; not one stone to join with another.

 And God allows it to happen.  The only way for a temple “living stone” to connect with Christ, the chief cornerstone, is to leave the organization, and repent for allowing an idol of deceit, trample and scattered them “among the nations”.   Lam 4:1,16; Ezek 11:16,17

 The “law” of God "goes out" from the Temple of God – from Zion, through the Temple priests who carry God's law on their heart. Mal 2:7; Heb 8:10 The Temple will be completed, but not by men who love their earthly treasures.    The "mountainlike organization" transgresses God’s laws…daily. 

‘Who are you, O great mountain?
Before Zerubbabel you shall become a plain!
And he shall bring forth the capstone
With shouts of “Grace, grace to it!” ’ ”  Zech 4:7

 

 

 

 http://4womaninthewilderness.blogspot.com/2013/09/the-rise-of-zion.html