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1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Do you suggest, with this quote, how people would live in more peace if technology (materialistic) progress did not happen? 

no- mankind are warmongers but as they progress they do think up more deadly weapons. 1914 - WW1 is a milestone in a sudden surge of technology I.e. the first war was unprecedented in the use of its variety of new technologies as killing machines. Ww2 was a repetition of the same with even more advanced tech built on the old tech..... same generation.

1 hour ago, Kosonen said:

What you say is not so remarkable because the

Ancient battles were fought by sword against sword.  A man had to fight hard to draw blood to kill one man. The ferocious battle of Angincor lasted the entire day and  killed only approx. 6400 people altogether.  The fastest they could move was by horse.  

Compare WW1...... first day of battle of Somme was 19, 240  British  fatalities and  38, 230 injured.

Horses: The exception was the Germans who stuck to their horses together with mobile transport- this did not work to their advantage. 

It was no longer man against man but technology against technology.  Larger numbers of people fell more swiftly than ever before.  Think of Russia - apart from WW1 they starved millions of their own people.  The 'lowest ' estimate is 20 million starved and died  in Russia alone.  China murdered up to 60 million of their own citizens - all this happened AFTER 1914.   If you do not understand the large scale killing which came after 1914.......then you choose to be blind. 

1 hour ago, Kosonen said:

live now instead of 100 or 200 years ago. We don't experience premature death our

On which planet are you living? Oh - I guess you live in inward-looking USA who only see and are fed the local picture on the news.  Typical of well-fed societies, they do not notice when other societies do not have their daily bread. 

Premature death includes famine as a result of war and climate change and sickness, terrorism, just to name three factors. Ebola,  drug-resistant malaria, drug-resistant TB,  MRSA etc take many lives prematurely. ( the pale horse in Revelation 6).

Yemen is at present facing catastrophic death of children due to famine just to name one  famine.  Why do you think the UN is promoting migrants to move?  And promote international law to force an acceptance of migrants and give them what they need- food, housing, free medical etc.  True, there is a larger agenda behind it but there is also untold suffering on this earth in greater numbers than ever before due to exponential population explosion in third world countries.

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Yes, and that according to Bible chronology, the FDS was appointed in 1919. So if 1914 was questioned, when were the FDS appointed? It would remove that whole aspect of what we have been taught, inclu

You are saying that they (GB) hang on to 1914 because if they get rid of it, they relinquish a Biblical base of authority. It's "nice" to have a Bible passage that talks about you and it's even "nicer

Quite so. And the understanding we have now, as proclaimed by the GB of Jehovah's Witnesses and supported by their application of Scripture, would appear to me to bear this out. The various persp

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4 hours ago, Arauna said:

It was no longer man against man but technology against technology.

Yes, even WT Society giving picture how God will use extra advanced technology in his Judgmendal  Day. They speaking about antimatter weapon and similar things that are beyond human knowledge and technology. How GB know this? Perhaps looking too much SF movies and reading "worldly" books?

Is technology what made WW1 and WW2 as fulfilment of prophecy? Bible didn't made focus on technology and how human will use it. And not how technology will make possible or contribute for prophecy to come true. 

It is not about technology. It is about what human wish, want, feel.

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Quote @Anna  "Many JW's don't think beyond what is black and white, and need everything not only served up, but already digested." 

Yes, this is why the GB and Writing Dept' et al are so dangerous. Because JW boots on the ground have stopped thinking and just serve the GB and It's Org. You seem to admit it but when I put it in words you they deny it. You are kinda funny Anna.  

Quote "This is why many, like you, are under the wrong impression that the GB are supposed to make no mistakes, and cannot be questioned. "

In my opinion, if God through Christ was guiding the GB then the GB would get things right. Why? Well firstly, it seems that in the  eyes of the GB et al, Armageddon is 'so close'.  So there is no time to loose. The preaching work and the congregation should therefore be spot on / almost perfect, so as not to stumble anyone. Why? Because it is PEOPLE'S LIVES AT RISK. It would seem that JW teaching is that if a person dies at Armageddon they do not get a second chance. Hence if a person is stumbled by GB /JW Org teachings, or by Elders in congregations then Luke 17 v 1 & 2 comes into play.

 Then he said to his disciples: “It is unavoidable that causes for stumbling should come. Nevertheless, woe to the one through whom they come!  It would be more advantageous for him if a millstone were hung from his neck and he were thrown into the sea than for him to stumble one of these little ones.

Secondly. You know what would happen if a congregant started questioning the GB's 'guidance'. If a congregant started talking to others in their congregation, suggesting that the GB were giving false information. The said person would firstly be warned, secondly be disfellowshipped for 'causing a division in the congregation'. 

So how does one 'question the GB' ? Would they give me a personal invitation to visit them to question them ? I think not. (Apart from which i could never afford the air fare anyway).  I am talking about questioning the GB not writing to Bethel, as the later does no good at all. 

Quote " What do you think the identifying mark of these "real anointed" is? "

Zechariah 8 v 23

“This is what Jehovah of armies says, ‘In those days ten men out of all the languages of the nationsj will take hold, yes, they will take firm hold of the robe of a Jew, saying: “We want to go with you, for we have heard that God is with you people.”

So how will those 'ten men' know exactly who that 'Jew' is ?  

Quote "The anointed of those days were baptized with holy spirit, the HS helped them to speak languages they never knew before, it helped them to perform miracles. All that was finished and done when the last of them died, and wasn't going to happen again."

Are you sure it won't happen again ? Are not the Anointed today 'baptised' with Holy Spirit ? Are they not inspired of God ? How then, in fact, do they know they are the Anointed ?  You of little faith.

BUT your GB treads them down. Your GB slyly suggests that they might be 'mentally ill' and then to those that are Anointed it tells them they do not need to contact each other or to study God's word together.

Why would your GB do that ? Why would your GB say that only they, those 8 men, are the F&DS ? 

Would not truly anointed ones actually want to meet together ? Would not a true F&DS want to gather all the Anointed (via internet / telephone / letter / etc) so as to confer / discuss / build up and share thoughts and blessings from God through Christ ? 

Quote Anna " b4ucuhear hit the nail on the head when he said regarding those taking the lead: "

So I'll quote him " Also, that way we won't be stumbled when Jesus apparently gets dates and teachings wrong and has to back-track on what he directed/controlled before.

You think JESUS gets it wrong ? Seriously ?  So now you are prepared to blame Jesus for the faults of your GB.

No hope it seems for those that put the GB and JW Org above God and Christ. 

Have a good day Anna. 

 

 

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36 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

So I'll quote him " Also, that way we won't be stumbled when Jesus apparently gets dates and teachings wrong and has to back-track on what he directed/controlled before.

You think JESUS gets it wrong ? Seriously ?  So now you are prepared to blame Jesus for the faults of your GB.

No hope it seems for those that put the GB and JW Org above God and Christ. 

 

The Governing Body is neither inspired nor infallible. Therefore, it can err in doctrinal matters or in organizational direction. In fact, the Watch Tower Publications Index includes the heading “Beliefs Clarified,” which lists adjustments in our Scriptural understanding since 1870. Of course, Jesus did not tell us that his faithful slave would produce perfect spiritual food.  WT 17/2  p. 26,27

 

“I am the vine; you are the branches. The one who remains in me and I in him—this one bears much fruit, for apart from me you are not able to do anythingIf anyone does not remain in me, he is thrown out as a branch, and dries up, and they gather them and throw them  into the fire, and they are burned. If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you want and it will be done for youMy Father is glorified by this: that you bear much fruit, and prove to be my disciples.” John 15:5-8

 “For false messiahs and false prophets will appear, and will produce great signs and wonders in order to deceive, if possible, even the elect.”  Matt 24:24

“And by his planning he will make a success of deceit by his hand, and in his mind he will boast, and in their ease he will destroy many, and even against the prince of princes (Isa 9:6) he will rise up, and he will be broken, but not by human hands.”  Dan 8:25

 “Now we ask you, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling to him, that you not be easily shaken from your composure, nor be troubled either by a spirit or by a message or by a letter alleged to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has arrived. (1914)  Do not let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and who exalts himself over every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits down in the temple of God, proclaiming that he himself is God.”  2 Thess 2:1-4

 

 

 

 

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12 hours ago, Arauna said:

If you have read any history books you would know that historians acknowledge that the world changed in 1914.  Even the society changed.  It crushed the class system in Europe.

11 hours ago, Kosonen said:

Yes, the world has changed, and that for the better. I am happy that I live now instead of 100 or 200 years ago. We don't experience premature death our days in the scale it used to be through out centuries.

I think it's pretty obvious the world "changed" because of WWI around 1914 to 1918. Many things changed for the better and many things changed for the worse. Historians always look for, and try to explain certain historical turning points to mark off which eras of history their specific chapters will cover, and sometimes the eras that their entire books will cover. A book on US history, for example, will nearly always cover the colonial period up to 1776 (the War), then from that war up to 1861 (the War), then from that war up until 1914-1918 (the War), then from that war up until WWII, then from that war up until the Vietnam War, Iraq, etc.

Therefore it should not be hard to find as many quotes about 1914 as there are books about historical periods that touch on WWI. And all of them should defend how this era marked a change. When writers talk about the "Civil War" in the US, they often discuss how it was the first war where technology (aircraft/balloons, submarines, iron battleships, Gattling guns) REALLY began to replace hand-to-hand combat (although arrows, canons, firearms and dynamite) had similar effects on war for many years before.

Still, you can't argue against the fact that these technologies had their first major effects around the world until around WWI, just as historians will argue the first major effects of nuclear technology around WWII.

It is no surprise then that --when looking for a sign-- that people are going to do exactly what Jesus said they would do. In Matthew 24, Jesus said that people would be looking at war and earthquakes and famines and pestilence and MISTAKING these things for signs. In fact, C.T.Russell appeared to be exactly correct when he indicated that such things would NOT be signs, but would be the kinds of things that people have suffered for these past 18 centuries (now nearly 20 centuries) since Jesus told us not to be FOOLED into thinking such things are signs.

Jesus' warning about the kinds of things we should not get fooled by, seems ever more apt now that technology has brought war and rumors of war to nearly every continent on earth.

But we should also note how, in trying to prove 1914, we are so "happy" that there was a great war in that year, that we have been very sloppy about how we read Matthew 24, and we give not a thought to the idea that Russell and many other Bible commentaries indicated. 

Also, we have to admit, what would be happening right now if the Watchtower had KEPT the dates 1915, 1918, or 1925 as the replacement dates for events once predicted in 1914  that failed to come true. Only after all those other dates also failed for the events expected for 1914, the Watchtower turned back all its emphasis on 1914 again, emphasizing the "war" part of the sign. But if it hadn't gone back to that date for the "sign" it's easy to realize that we would right now be arguing for why things actually changed in the world in 1918, for example, and we (Witnesses) would be arguing against 1914. We might even be talking about how all those secular historians were wrong and blinded by their constant quotes about 1914, when persons with eyes of faith realized that the Bible had pointed to 1918 all along. (We might even make fun of them for how they had truly missed the sign in Matthew that was so obvious when it was 1918 that saw both WAR, and FAMINE, and PESTILENCE (Spanish Influenza) and an 8.3 EARTHQUAKE in the Philippines, just months after an 8.5 in Samoa and just months before an 8.1 in Tonga.)

And if the false chronology we depended on for 1914 had been seen in advance to give us 1934 or 1944 or 1954, you can be sure that we would be now be arguing for those years instead.

But of course a focus on 1918 (or 1954) would be just another way to ignore Jesus' warning about being misled. It is because 1914 was a really truly pivotal date in modern history that we have been so easily misled. It's the very reason we have usually ignored Jesus' warning not to be misled when we see wars, earthquakes, pestilence, persecution, etc.

We forget that Jesus' disciples asked him for a sign so they would know WHEN the impending judgment day on Jerusalem's temple would be ABOUT to occur. (Not as a sign to know when something had invisibly occurred in the past.)

Jesus' answer indicated that impostors and false prophets would be going around declaring that a sign had already occurred and he indicated that people might mistakenly point to wars, earthquakes, and famines as their evidence. People might say they know it happened even though it was invisible to the people they were trying to convince, claiming Jesus had returned to an inner room somewhere, or it was over here, or over there. But Jesus said that it would be easy to know that these people were wrong because the parousia/synteleia (judgment day) would be as unmistakable as a lightning strike that instantly crosses from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth. There would be no advance warning signs, because it had to come as a thief in the night. Thieves don't give advance warning signs. Only after it was too late to prepare, THEN THE SIGN WOULD APPEAR IN THE HEAVENS. 

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@Arauna Please check statistics for population growth and figure out why the world's population did not grow nearly so fast before as the past 100 years.

And you think people did not die so much before. Please check history. 

Even in the Bible there are written about battles when in one day hundreds of thousands died in one day.

I don't believe Satan was cast down around 1914. But imagine how it will be when he really is cast down to earth.

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NWT  Matthew 24 from v 1.

24  Now as Jesus was departing from the temple, his disciples approached to show him the buildings of the temple.  In response he said to them: “Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, by no means will a stone be left here upon a stone and not be thrown down.”a While he was sitting on the Mount of Olives,b the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?”d In answer Jesus said to them: “Look out that nobody misleads you,e  for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many.f  You are going to hear of wars and reports of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for these things must take place, but the end is not yet.g “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom,h and there will be food shortagesi and earthquakes in one place after another.j  All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress. or Birth ?

@JW Insider  So you are saying that Jesus was answering the question "When will the temple etc be destroyed ". Not giving a sign for OUR times.

And are you then saying that this scripture tells us NOT to look at the wars etc as a sign of our times ? 

@Arauna Seems to use the wars etc as a sign of the times NOW. 

The scripture says 'but the end is not yet'. 

And verse 8, NWT says pangs of distress but Interlinear Translation of GREEK SCRIPTURES says "beginning of pangs of birth".   Surely there is a big difference ? 

 

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Maybe we can liken traditional 1914 views to Newton’s physics and newfangled views to Einstein’s.

Newton‘s laws of physics work perfectly well in the real world. You can land a man on Mars with them no sweat. So also does 1914 work in the real spiritual world—you can come up with the neatest ways to explain events since then—“facts on the ground,” they have been called— not to mention the most clever book interpreting the Book of Revelation, with connections too compelling not to take to heart.

Contrast that with Revelation as interpreted elsewhere, such as this article with regard to LDS. It is drivel so bland one cannot imagine spending time with it, full of ‘how do you feel about this?’s and ‘what do you think about that?’s. I don’t need the stupid book in that event—I’ll just come here to see what JTR, 4Jah, Srecko, and Witness thinks.

https://religionnews.com/2019/12/23/what-do-mormons-do-with-the-book-of-revelation/

But under extreme conditions of Newton physics, some anomalies pop up, prompting Einstein to delve into and rewrite laws. Are there extreme conditions today with regard to 1914? Overlapping generations start to stretch thin—how long until they snap apart? the Einsteins here start to fret—and so they investigate to rewrite basic understandings.

I know, I know—it doesn’t explain everything. But I kind of like it. If I had more time and interest, “Oscar Einstein” would soon be making his appearance.

 

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10 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

  So you are saying that Jesus was answering the question "When will the temple etc be destroyed ". Not giving a sign for OUR times.

Yes. That's the proposition here. It's found in many commentaries of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 and it fits the idea that Jesus always warned about when he said not to look for any advance signs. A lot of people don't realize it was also C.T.Russell's take on those verses.

But we need to be careful, too, about thinking it has no significance for a larger event than the one on Jerusalem. We know that Jesus was answering their question about the Parousia/Synteleia of the Aion for Jerusalem and the Temple especially. (The word Parousia here refers to a Royal Visitation, not an invisible presence. The word Synteleia refers to a Destructive Judgment Event, an "End of Things Together" not a conclusion leading up to the actual conclusion.)

Jesus invisible presence was not part of the question, and that invisible presence never ended from the time he said "Look! I am with you all the days until the Synteleia of the Age.

24 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

And are you then saying that this scripture tells us NOT to look at the wars etc as a sign of our times ? 

Yes, the disciples sincerely wanted to know if they could get a sign to warn them in advance of the Temple Judgment Jesus had just described to them. This is natural.

Surely, if Jesus told you in 1970 that the World Trade Center in New York City was going to be turned into a pile of rubble someday, you would definitely want to know if you could get an advance sign to warn others in time. Now imagine that you asked for such a sign and the first words out of Jesus' mouth were "DO NOT BE MISLED. Many will try to convince you that they have special knowledge about the time this will happen, but DO NOT BE MISLED. You are going to hear of wars, reports of wars, earthquakes, and pestilences and famines between now and then. But these do NOT mean the END. If anything, these things will just be a BEGINNING, as things might get worse and worse between now and then. But in the end, people will be surprised, as if there had been no warning at all. It will come like a thief in the night. There will be no time to respond. The only SIGN will be the one you see in the SKY as these things are happening.

1 hour ago, 4Jah2me said:

[ Arauna] Seems to use the wars etc as a sign of the times NOW. 

That's a very common reading of the verses, and it's the one that almost all Witnesses believe and make use of. It can make sense that way, too, but it makes more sense with the rest of the Bible if we look carefully at EACH word Jesus used here.

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1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Overlapping generations start to stretch thin—how long until they snap apart? the Einsteins here start to fret—and so they investigate to rewrite basic understandings.

You don’t ‘downvote’ this post, 4Jah2Me—why in the world would you do that? Unless you are mad that I do not consider you an Einstein.

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Quote @TrueTomHarley " not to mention the most clever book interpreting the Book of Revelation, with connections too compelling not to take to heart. "

Which could NOT be the Revelation book by JW Org because they said it basically wasn't all true, in fact it probably had mistakes in..

In 2016 ? Watchtower announced the discontinuation of multiple publications which were key doctrinal guidebooks for Witnesses, including the “Creation” book, the “Isaiah” books, and the infamous “Revelation” book. 

I think we were brainwashed into studying this book THREE times. Repetition for emphasis maybe, or just make them read over and over then they will HAVE TO believe it. Even though they didn't believe it all themselves and basically said so. 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 Quote @JW Insider " But these do NOT mean the END. If anything, these things will just be a BEGINNING, as things might get worse and worse between now and then. "

Just the beginning ? Matt 24 v 8  All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress. or  ' pangs of Birth' as the Interlinear reads.

Beginning of pangs of birth, just the beginning. 

So then maybe my idea of another 10 years is not so silly after all.  

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