Jump to content

4Jah2me

Did Jehovah’s Witnesses Lie to the Montana Court About Confidentiality?

Topic Summary

Created

Last Reply

Replies

Views

4Jah2me -
Witness -
194
3525

Top Posters


Recommended Posts

    Hello guest!

by 
    Hello guest!

As many activists know, the Montana Supreme Court reversed a $35 million judgment against Jehovah's Witnesses recently, in a case involving the religion's failure to report child sex abuse to the authorities. (See 

    Hello guest!
.)

Confidentiality Trumps Mandatory Reporting Laws

The court noted when religious authorities are exempt from the state's mandatory reporting laws; from page 14 of 

    Hello guest!
:

"Clergy are not required to report known or suspected child abuse if the knowledge results from a congregation member’s confidential communication or confession and if the person making the statement does not consent to disclosure."

In other words, if someone communicates something to their clergy and expects that information to remain confidential, that clergy member is not required to report that information to authorities or anyone else.

Jehovah's Witnesses Promise Confidentiality to Congregants

The decision by the state justices referred to statements made by Dave Chappel,¹ "a Jehovah’s Witnesses Service Department elder designated by the Watchtower and CCJW [The Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses] boards of directors to serve as their representative in this litigation":

chappel2

In short, Chappel argued that congregants in the religion are promised that things discussed with elders remain strictly confidential. Chappel used this promise of confidentiality as a legal argument against requirements of reporting child sex abuse to the authorities.

The Deception Over "Confidentiality"

There is a problem with this so-called promise of confidentiality, however. The 2010 edition of "Shepherd the Flock of God," the handbook used by Jehovah's Witness elders, chapter 7, paragraph 15, says:

chappel3

These instructions are repeated in the 2019 versions of the "Shepherd" book, in chapter 15, paragraph 15.

In other words, these so-called promises of keeping things confidential are rubbish. Elders are outright instructed to share things said during judicial committee cases with other elders, the circuit overseer, and the branch office as they see fit, without informing the "wrongdoer."

I'm not a lawyer so I have no input as to how this information affects any legal case, if at all. However, set that aside; from a moral point of view Jehovah's Witnesses were, at the very least, downright deceitful in their arguments. They don't ensure confidentiality during the judicial committee process, even instructing elders to use someone's name in certain discussions and to not tell that person that they'll be sharing their supposed confidential information.

Whatever anyone's legal arguments and outcome of any court case, there is no doubt in my mind that Jehovah's Witnesses continuously fail child sex abuse victims in their religion. They keep the secrets of molesters, fail to warn parents, fail to notify authorities, fight victims in court, and say whatever they can to protect their assets over their children.

I'm heartbroken over how the court's decision must make those victims feel, and knowing that the case was reversed based on a dishonesty obviously doesn't make things any easier to accept.

*** ***

¹It's my understanding that the person's name was Douglas, not Dave.

*** ***

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This came through to me today, so I thought I'd share it. 

Whilst I don't fully agree with massive payouts to victims (or lawyers), I do agree with a payout of a reasonable amount accompanied with an apology from the Org. It never puts the wrong, right. It never can. But it would give the Victim a closure and a sort of 'contentment' of actually being believed. 

Yes i know that lawyers and solicitors rub their hands greedily for their financial gain, but that must be on both sides i would think. Or do the GB's lawyers do it out of love ? 

One thing this article does point out for sure, is that there is no confidentiality within JW Org, they just share the secrets amongst themselves. Hopefully more brothers and sisters will gain a better conscience and report any wrongdoings to Police and Authorities as it still seems that Elders are exempt from doing so. 

Share this post


Link to post

12 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Confidentiality by lawyers and clergy is guaranteed by law.  Please read CNN news! 

JW elders are clergy and WT Lawyers have said so! The JWorg website for the public has "erroneous" information about this subject. :))

When will this "new light" about the WT Society Management structure come out titled, 
"
What exactly are the elders in fact?", and will this be announced and presented during meetings to members, as a "clarification"?

Share this post


Link to post

Here is the way to look at events in Montana: I wrote it up this morning and posted on my blog. Reproduced here:

After the multi-million dollar verdict against Jehovah’s Witnesses in Montana was reversed, I visited the Witness-bashing website to see how they were taking it. They were not happy. However, the ones who knew law were analytical.

“This isn’t the fault of the courts,” one said. “It’s the fault of the Montana law as written. Courts must follow law or risk reversal on appeal. This case was never going to be ultimately won. The law was way too clear on the matter.”

Another: “Montana followed the law. It’s that simple and of course Watchtower followed the law...”

Yet another: “The case never should have been started, as the law clearly backed JW’s actions. It never had a chance of surviving appeal.”

They sure didn’t talk that way after the first trial. Some of their cohorts wanted to rub my nose—line by line—through that first transcript. ‘The court found your people guilty, TrueTom! Why would they do that unless they had broke the law—they who say they adhere to the law!’ I didn’t respond because I am not a lawyer that would try to unravel their affairs. Moreover, courts, while they may represent the best human justice available, are clearly not above bias from pre-existing philosophical leanings—if they were confirming a Supreme Court Justice would take ten minutes. ‘Wait until the fat lady sings,’ was my attitude. When she did, it was to throw out the judgement of the skinny lady.

Not all were so retrospective after that reversal. “F**k the Montana Supreme Court!” was the outraged complaint woven throughout the thread, with some accusing those seven justices (the reversal was 7-0) of being enablers themselves! Child sexual abuse is the most white-hot topic of all and calm heads rarely prevail. One of them muttered at how they must be “celebrating this victory” at Watchtower HQ. But they showed no sign of it. The Witness attorney summed up events: “There are no winners in a case involving child abuse. ‘No child should ever be subjected to such a debased crime....Tragically, it happens, and when it does Jehovah's Witnesses follow the law. This is what the Montana Supreme Court has established.’” Obviously if one is on the hook for several million dollars and then no longer is, they will not mourn over it. But the focus was kept on the victim, as it should have been. Ideally, she gets full justice from the perpetrator directly responsible.

The gold standard in matters of child sexual abuse is to “go beyond the law.” It is a crazy expectation and I can think of no parallels to it. The expectation is found in a remark already presented, but in truncated form. The full remark was: “Montana followed the law. It’s that simple and of course Watchtower followed the law, rather than just simply reporting child abuse like a good Christian organization.”

If the gold standard regarding child abuse is to “go beyond the law” then MAKE that the law! That’s what law is for! Three times before the ARC Geoffrey Jackson pleaded for such a change—it would make his job “so much easier.” ‘Going beyond the law’ is surely to trigger the wrath of those who, not unreasonably, expect you to abide by the law! Change the law and everyone is happy.

As though on cue, a report surfaced regarding another faith. An Oregon woman has filed a lawsuit for $9 million against the Mormon church because they DID report a confidentially disclosed sexual abuse of a minor. “Clergy are not required to report known or suspected child abuse if the knowledge results from a congregation member's confidential communication or confession and if the person making the statement does not consent to disclosure," Justice Beth Baker wrote in the Montana Supreme Court opinion. It is a statement that will clearly help the Oregon woman, but would not if it were not the law. Change the law if you are really serious about nabbing pedophiles.

The way everything unfolded in Montana pretty well accords with my initial assessment. So great is the world”s frustration at not being able to make a dent in the child sexual abuse pandemic that the first court chose to ignore law in pursuit of that end. It might well be combined with some religious bias, but I would not hang my hat on the latter—outrage over child sexual abuse is sufficient in itself. The Witness organization did follow law, as the Supreme Count validated, but the first court reinterpreted law and made it retroactive to make it seem that they did not. I 

    Hello guest!

Change the law! Why cannot that be done? If Watchtower wants to change a policy, they can do it overnight and have it implemented worldwide within the week. It is the basket-case eternally squabbling, turf-guarding, plethora of competing jurisdictions that cause many Witnesses to become Witnesses in the first place—they see how hopeless it is with human governments.

Ones who want to bring the Watchtower down on the pretext of child sexual abuse, such as those who predominate at the Witness bashing site, are hardly out of bullets, but they are continually frustrated. Their efforts to put Witness stories above all others gains little traction because the pattern elsewhere is that the leaders of organizations, religious or otherwise, are the abusers themselves, something rarely true with the Witness organization, and also that child sexual abuse appears to be the primary export of the planet, crowding out stories of “lesser” significance. With Watchtower (as in Montana) the situation is typically that of abuse within a family or step-family and Witness leaders come under the gun for evoking law and not reporting it, leaving that up to the persons involved—sometimes they do but often they don’t. History may well judge that harshly, but it does not hold a candle to leaders actually committing the abuse themselves. The 

    Hello guest!
 that I wrote about was similarly dismissed. Moreover, that contributing perception—that it is a disgrace to call attention to child sexual abuse—
    Hello guest!

The Epstein joke making the rounds is: “If you were surprised at Jeff Epstein committing suicide, just think how surprised he must have been!” Of course. With prison security protocol breaking down “at every level” and with 60 Minutes concluding that his injuries far suggest homicide over suicide, the conclusion that he was put to sleep by powerful interests to protect other pedophiles will never be squashed. People are naive, but not that naive. 

A DisneyLand executive was recently sentenced for pedophile offenses, and Erin Elizabeth of HealthNutNews, who has lived in the area, says it happens all the time. The point is, there is no place where child sexual abuse is not, but participants on the anti-JW site see it in only one place—a place where its intensity pales next to places where leaders are the abusers, not just ones trying to stem it who may have done so clumsily.

Thirty years into all-out war against child sexual abuse and barely a dent has been made! For my money, the JW organization is the most proactive of all, gathering every single member on earth to consider detailed scenarios in which child abuse might happen—if there are sleepovers, if there are tickling sessions, if there are unsupervised trips to the rest room, if someone, even a relative, shows unusual interest in your child, and so forth—so that parents, the obvious first line of defense, can be on the alert. This was done at the 2017 Regional Conventions, which were held globally.

It is the common and accepted legal practice to go as high up on the food chain as possible with regard to any lawsuit—everyone knows this and judges it an unremarkable fact of life. “Knew or should have known” is the legal expression that carries the day and effectively amounts to a tax on the common person. Governments raise taxes. Businesses raise prices. When I hear that my neighbor’s lawyer secured him millions of dollars for his auto accident, I rejoice with him—then I open my insurance premium bill.

As people become ever more debased, just where does this end? Women on airlines are reporting sexual abuse. Even rape has been reported, and with passengers being packed in like sardines, attendants expected to monitor this are caught dumbfounded. Do they “know or should have known?” In an increasingly depraved world, your guess is as good as mine.

As to sentiment on the Witness-bashing website? Look, whenever one discards a scenario in which there is discipline for one in which there is not, it will be like releasing a compressed spring—it rebounds wildly, delirious with its newfound freedom, caring not where it goes. This will be true when one leaves behind the school, the military, or the job. It will especially be true if one quit or was expelled from that institution—and that is the case of most on the anti-JW site. Many of them have come out as gay. Witnesses may not gay-bash as do some evangelicals, some of whom froth on the subject and tirelessly prod legislators to make it hot for gays in general society—Witnesses don’t do that—still, there is no place for gay relations within the Witness organization—and that hardly endears them to former members who have gone that way. There is a plain backdrop of ‘settling the score’ to be detected in many posts. It is anything but easy to hold the line on Bible morality in a quickly changing world.

Share this post


Link to post

@TrueTomHarley  I read half of it Tom, but you do tend to go over the top. 

One thing i find quite funny is the FACT that the GB / JW Org change the use of their conscience when it affects their bank account.

In many countries JW Preaching is AGAINST THE LAW.  But as the apostles said 'We must obey God as ruler rather than men'. So in many countries Witnesses deliberately break the law to preach. 

BUT, the GB / JW Org won't 'break the law' to protect young children from being Sexually Abused. 

Even if it it not a legal requirement' to report, SURELY it IS a requirement from GOD through CHRIST to report all forms of Abuse, Child or Adult, to those authorities which GOD HAD PUT IN PLACE.  

    Hello guest!
  James 1 v 27 
Pure and undefiled religion before our God and Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

    Hello guest!
 Romans 13 v 1
Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

    Hello guest!

Let everyone submit to the governing authorities, since there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are instituted by God.

Your GB and its Org have no excuse. 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

Confidentiality by lawyers and clergy is guaranteed by law.  Please read CNN news! 

    Hello guest!

 

"Church stands by its decision

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints said it considers protecting victims a top priority, and has a 24-hour help line to report abuse. "
 
It seems that they have more of a conscience and better morality than the GB and JW org. They may have broken man's law but they obeyed God's law. 
And no I do not want to be a Mormon. 
But I think there is a scripture somewhere that says something like, 'when those without law do the things of the law' And of course it is talking about God's law not man's.

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Another: “Montana followed the law. It’s that simple and of course Watchtower followed the law...”

If Montana have such law than that is obviously lawful how Supreme Court of Montana found elements that released elders and WT and Congregation from responsibility of such report. I am not expert to read documents in such a way and to see what is what into details.

What is interesting, again, from several cases and Court documents known to public, is very strong interest of WT Society and JW elders to be considered in front, before secular authorities, as clergy, priesthood with all legal rights as Catholic clergy. In fact WT lawyers using Catholic clergy as example, how they want to be treated in the exactly same way.  

WT Society, elders and regular members have history of preaching against all religions and theirs priesthood who are instruments of satan, and how these churches and their priesthood lies to people and teach falsehoods. But now WT Society asking, in fact demands to be treated exactly in the same way, to be in same level of "spiritual position, authority" that have Catholic clergy. That is something disgusting, for observers. When taking such position, JW elders drinking "same wine of adultery" with their Catholic "colleagues".      

JW church has not "confession" doctrine  as Catholic church has. 

    Hello guest!
Why? Because, JW church had not clergy ....until now :))) 

Share this post


Link to post

Quote @TrueTomHarley "..  because the pattern elsewhere is that the leaders of organizations, religious or otherwise, are the abusers themselves, something rarely true with the Witness organization, .. "

Tom you would not know. Because the GB and their lawyers are withholding over 20 years worth of Child Sexual Abuse details in America. How can you possibly know who names are in there ? 

For you to state that it is rare amongst the JW Org for its 'leaders' to be involved, you would need to have access to those files. 

Some on here have even said that GB members were homosexuals. And it was also said that a GB member had been accused of sexually abusing someone in Bethel.  I think this information came from JWI. My apologies to JWI if I'm wrong.

Oh and I read the rest of your comment which I knew would be a total waste of my time, and it was. You go of on a tangent talking about world affairs and then you go 'gay-bashing' but pretend not to be. Then you do your normal JW thing by blaming those that tell the truth about your GB and JW Org.  You try to turn the tables on those people that have found true faults in your Org. You use that stupid old pretence that all people that find fault must be d/fed JWs. Sorry Tom that idea died long ago. Although you don't admit it, there are REAL VICTIMS of CSA  that have PROVEN that Elders and others have misused their 'authority' in the Org and hidden the truth and/or lied about CSA in the JW Org. 

But keep up your story telling Tom, some naive ones might believe you. 

Share this post


Link to post
17 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

For you to state that it is rare amongst the JW Org for its 'leaders' to be involved, you would need to have access to those files. 

Not everything in life is dependent upon “access to files.” Sometimes looking at what is right in front of your nose is enough.

Montana is typical of other CSA Witness cases—no involvement whatsoever of elders other than their role of persons who did not report. Other organizations you do not hear of CSA unless it is one of the leaders arrested for it. Other than a rotter in San Diego, are there any such cases with JWs?

As it turns out, I have it on excellent authority that each and every person you have interacted with over the past year is a disgusting pervert. How do I know that? Easy. It is in the files that are hidden from me!

Share this post


Link to post
7 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Hopefully more brothers and sisters will gain a better conscience and report any wrongdoings to Police and Authorities as it still seems that Elders are exempt from doing so. 

I think that is the general idea, and that we have seen the last of any pedophiles or child molesters getting away with their disgusting crime. Also, I think anyone thinking about doing anything disgusting to children will think twice about it. (However, there is the problem of new people coming in, they may not be aware of this strict child policy. But I do know that brothers who are being considered for appointment as elders are asked if there is anything in the past that would disqualify them from taking up this position).  I do not expect to see any more new cases in the coming years. I think if any cases come to light now, it will be from the past.

A few months ago I researched the Montana case quite extensively (I read the 400 or so page court transcript) and posted some of my "observations" in the Private JW Club. This was another classic instance of  "a dirty old step dad/grandad molests step children and then years later a step grandchild". (If memory serves right, I think this happened about 10 years ago). The step daughter with the grandchild knew that her step dad had molested her sister, and despite that, she brought her child (the grandchild) to his house for baby sitting because of convenience sake. I don't think this sat too well with the Jury, since it was evident she had knowingly put her child in harms way. Most of the members of that family were not very strong in the truth, and one of the victim's claim was thrown out of court as unreliable (basically she made some stuff up).

I have not followed up on the results of the lawsuit, so thanks for posting that. Anyway, what I remember from reading the transcript is that it all seemed to hang on clergy privilege law in Montana. You might already know this, but each state in USA has their own state laws. Some states have no clergy confidentiality, and others do. Then there is the issue of "what exactly is meant by "confidential". Does this mean no one but the one whom the confidential issue was disclosed to knows? If I remember right, what had to be established by the court was: whose definition of confidentiality was going to be used. Was it going to be the "Catholic" version, where only the priest knows, or was it going to be the particular religions version, in other words what that particular religion viewed as confidential. In the case of Jehovah's Witnesses, confidentiality is not the same as the Catholic version of confidentiality. As we know, when a JW judicial matter is said to be confidential, it means that more than just one elder gets to know the matter and in the case of CSA, advice is sought from the branch office as to reporting laws, i.e. what does the law for that particular state say about reporting? So here we already have perhaps more than 4 people who know about the matter. However, in this version of confidentiality, only those persons who are involved in handling the matter know. No one outside of that circle is privy to this information*. Also, another criteria for the Catholic version of confidentiality is that the penitent must approach the cleric, the confessional.  However, with the Witnesses, this is not always the case. The perpetrator is approached by the elders, as it was in this case. So, although I haven't read the report yet, it appears that the state of Montana recognizes a religion's interpretation of confidentiality, therefor they deemed the JW version as confidential information. So it wasn't because the elders were lying about confidentiality in order to deceive the court. The transcript clearly showed that the elders said how they proceeded, so the court was well aware the that more than one person knew, and that the elders on the judicial committee also called the branch for consultation. There was no deceit on the part of the elders.

* It just occurred to me that if no one outside the confidential circle was to know, then parents of other children were not to find out either. However, this is not the case now. When it is established that there may be concern over the behavior of someone in the congregation, then the parents of any children in that congregation are notified. So really, now there is no confidentiality for the sake of protecting the children. So, I wonder how we can even claim clergy penitence now, because of that. It seems this would be a moot issue with any new cases. It makes me see how in contrast, the other version of clergy penitence is a danger to children, because the priest must not tell anyone else. This is why I think it's stupid for any state or country to have this outdated religious law written in their secular law. Some states are trying to abolish this, but religious tradition is so closely intertwined with politics that it may never happen. Especially not in predominantly Catholic countries....

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, Anna said:

In two-thirds of the states, a communication is considered confidential if made privately and not intended for further disclosure except to other persons present for the purpose of the communication.

That "third" person appears (to me) to be someone who helped write or translate a letter for the penitent, or who helped translate the person's voice or words from another language (including sign language).

It was interesting that the same site you quote also included:

It’s important to understand the difference between clergy privilege and the duty of confidentiality. Privilege simply means the information cannot be shared in court. The duty of confidentiality applies in all contexts and is an ethical matter every minister must navigate carefully. A minister’s duty of confidentiality is breached when they disclose confidences to anyone, anywhere. However, there may be times when it is appropriate to share confidential information, under extreme circumstances where people may be killed or severely injured. There are only nine cases in the history of this country where a minister was sued for breaching the duty of confidentiality. Of those, only three of the cases found the minister civilly liable for sharing confidences. In the other six cases, the courts concluded there was no duty under the circumstances for the minister to keep the confidentiality. So it can be concluded that ministers who decide to share confidential information should not in most cases be held personally liable from a legal standpoint, but they certainly won’t be held legally liable for not sharing. The exception to this rule is child abuse. In 41 states clergy are mandatory reporters of suspected or known child abuse.

It gives the impression that it's rare that a minister would ever get in trouble for revealing a confidentiality, but that they would never get in trouble for breaching the confidentiality of child abuse by letting the authorities know.

When these laws are invoked to say it was OK for Witness ministers to keep the child abuse secret, it's contrary to the spirit of these current laws about privilege and confidentiality in child abuse cases. They are intended to protect the child, and make sure that the minister does not get in trouble for revealing confidentiality. But we still seem to be asking for these rules to be invoked to protect the organization.

Share this post


Link to post
47 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

It gives the impression that it's rare that a minister would ever get in trouble for revealing a confidentiality, but that they would never get in trouble for breaching the confidentiality of child abuse by letting the authorities know.

Yes, I saw that too. (I just wanted to highlight the bit about what seems to be the two "types" of confidentiality"). 

You know my feelings on this anyway,  that I don't see the purpose of applying clergy privilege to the elders in the first place. I have a feeling though that this will become less of an issue, and hopefully will be just a formality, like "let's see what the law says in our state, but then do what our conscience tell us is the right thing to do to protect our children". 

 

Share this post


Link to post
2 minutes ago, Anna said:

I have a feeling though that this will become less of an issue, and hopefully will be just a formality, like "let's see what the law says in our state, but then do what our conscience tell us is the right thing to do to protect our children".

I agree that this seems to be the goal of the updated policy. I'm happy for that. This is hopefully just an artifact of obsolete procedures.

Share this post


Link to post

THE ZALKIN LAW FIRM, P.C.  (facebook)

We have received inquiries and concerns about a Montana Supreme Court's decision to reverse a $35 Million judgment against the Jehovah's Witnesses. What people should know is that this opinion is limited to the facts of that case and to that court's interpretation of the law of Montana and does not establish precedent in other jurisdictions. We know the lawyers who represent the victim in that case and in our opinion they did a fine job. Unfortunately, based on our reading of the Montana Supreme Court's opinion, the Court was mislead by testimony offered by the JWs in house expert in their child abuse policies and practices. The case hinged on whether the way in which the JWs handle reports of child sexual abuse falls within an exception to Montana's clergy mandated reporting law. Relying heavily on the testimony of Dave Chappel from the Service Department, the Montana Supreme Court concluded that the policies and practices of the JWs is to keep such information confidential, even if it is shared between elders of the congregation and elders of the Service Department, and even if elders are free to disclose that information to law enforcement should they decide to do so, thereby entitling the JWs to the confidentiality exception to the obligation of clergy to report suspicions of child sexual abuse. In essence, the Court's conclusion is that where a religious organization says it is required to keep such information confidential as a tenant of its religion, despite evidence to the contrary, the court is going to accept what it says as controlling.

The JWs also argue that civil courts should not second guess how they deal with reports of child sexual abuse because doing so violates the JWs 1st Amendment right to the free exercise of its religion. That argument has failed in dozens of cases. The U.S. Supreme Court has recognized that civil courts can enforce neutral laws that are intended to apply to everyone equally. Laws that protect children from child abusers are neutral and not targeted to any one religion.

Over the course of the past decade of litigating cases against the JWs we have obtained numerous court opinions that have found the opposite of what the Montana Supreme Court determined to be the case.

We feel very badly for the victim in this case. What this case shows very clearly, is that the JWs continue to place secrecy and protection of known child molesters above the safety of children. Shame on them.

Share this post


Link to post
4 hours ago, Anna said:

Yes, I saw that too. (I just wanted to highlight the bit about what seems to be the two "types" of confidentiality"). 

If the law does not want confusion - they must fix the law.  The problem has always been the law .... since the 1980s.  It was never clear cut and every state has different statutes..... and interpretations.

I am sure they (JWs) would like to give the victim compensation.... but the law is law.  If they give the victim 1 million for example - she can go ahead and claim the absorbitant amount of 35 million anyway. Under human law one cannot feel compassion....... you get severely punished for it.

Only under Jehovahs law compassion works. Human law is flawed. 

Did you see my shared link above? A women is suing the mormon clergy for breaking confidentiality....... Depending on the precedent it may set.... we may see changes in future on the interpretation of this law.

Share this post


Link to post
38 minutes ago, Arauna said:

I am sure they (JWs) would like to give the victim compensation.... but the law is law.

You should speak with some of the Watchtower attorneys. I don't think you will ever again claim that they would like to give the victim compensation.

Share this post


Link to post
6 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

don't think you will ever again claim that they would like to give the victim compensation.

As I just said - law is law....... no place for compassion. It carrys the sword.... and uses only the sword - nothing else.  You can only fight for defence within the boundaries the law allows you...... or go under. 

Rome was vicious, but do not be misled - our times are more vicious and about to become much more so. 

Share this post


Link to post
6 hours ago, JW Insider said:

But we still seem to be asking for these rules to be invoked to protect the organization.

.... to protect financial assets, if  i may say.

Because there is no more need to protect Organization in sense of dignity and "to not drag God's name through the mud". CSA problem is strong in so many Institutions, religious and non-religious.

In that,  from secular point of view, JW organization is like every other organization. And they (world) have no need to pay more attention to WTJWorg than to every other religion or institution of any sort.

What problem is : JW members and Management are worried about how worldly/secular people will look at them and what they will think about them - and that is, in JW' minds as: Only True Religion and God's Earthly Organization.

In this aspect , from JW point of view,  JW leaders found it very important to "protect organization" as the most holy in the world. Image of Organization have to be without spot, mainly in the view of members, who have to bring themselves into thinking how World have to see WTJWorg as only true and clean organization, in one hand, and because of that, this same World have to want to destroy and persecute WTJWorg, in second hand.

One part of JW mind need some sort of "recognition"  made by satan' World, and other part of JW mind in the same time wish to be "persecuted" in some form, as proof that they are and belong to only true religion. 

It comes to the point where self-realization (individual and as organization) about the correctness of one's own path is not enough. A dose of martyrdom is required. But again, not so high a dose as to cause harm in the financial stability of the Corporation. The best option, for Corporation, would be some sort of problems and persecution toward members, without reaching too much for money of  organization, without doing financial harm to the corporation. 

Share this post


Link to post
9 hours ago, Witness said:

t, the Montana Supreme Court concluded that the policies and practices of the JWs is to keep such information confidential, even if it is shared between elders of the congregation and elders of the Service Department, and even if elders are free to disclose that information to law enforcement should they decide to do so,

This shows clearly that the court was NOT mislead.

(Saying it was mislead is another one of Zalkin's loaded words to make JWs appear dishonest and bent on protecting pedophiles. As a result we see headlines such as "JWs lied in court". )

6 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

What problem is : JW members and Management are worried about how worldly/secular people will look at them and what they will think about them - and that is, in JW' minds as: Only True Religion and God's Earthly Organization.

Yes, I agree with that. I have seen it practiced (in other areas, not CSA). The Montana case is from what happened about 10 years ago. Hopefully now, with the new guidelines, and especially the WT study, all of JWs will no longer view this as bringing shame on the organization if they report, but they will see it is the perpetrator who is the one that is bringing the shame. Now it is in proper perspective. 

Share this post


Link to post
9 hours ago, Arauna said:
14 hours ago, Anna said:

 

If the law does not want confusion - they must fix the law.  The problem has always been the law .... since the 1980s.  It was never clear cut and every state has different statutes..... and interpretations.

I agree. Also I agree with most of what you said @TrueTomHarley in your post, but it seems to me, the law is not about "you must NOT disclose clergy confidentiality", but it is about "you don't have to disclose clergy confidentiality". It was the clergy who said you must NOT. This is because it was against the law of the church, and a cleric would lose his job if he broke that church law. As you know, JWs are not under that kind of a law, so it seems to me that it has always been an option for them whether to claim clergy privilege or not. 

11 hours ago, Witness said:

the Court's conclusion is that where a religious organization says it is required to keep such information confidential as a tenant of its religion, despite evidence to the contrary,

I did not see any evidence to the contrary. I read the court transcript. Again, Zalkin is making a misleading statement. 

Share this post


Link to post

But if the GB / Bethel / Circuit Overseers / Elders et al, are allowed to tell half the Org and still pretend it is confidential then that is the biggest immoral / dishonest / unloving / merciless thing ever.  It is a loophole of the worst kind.  

The case may be ten years old, but that does not make it any less important in God's / Christ's opinion surely. Surely THEY would want justice and mercy done ? 

As JTR (I think it was ) said, the W/t / JW Org is run by the accountants and lawyers .

It is not God's Organisation because it proves to be man's. 

@Srecko Sostar  The best option, for Corporation, would be some sort of problems and persecution toward members, without reaching too much for money of  organization, without doing financial harm to the corporation. 

Sadly there is much persecution in Russia. There may be persecution elsewhere but I'm not aware of it. In Russia though it has been financial as well as physical. 

But it annoys me when JWs pretend that the CSA problems are part of persecution, because in truth they are caused by the dishonesty in the Org itself. 

In my opinion, whatever is printed in the W/t or in the Shepherding the Flock book, nothing has changed. It will still be hidden, and victims will still be shunned and called liars. JWs will still believe the Elders above the victims. Contacting Bethel / Head Office etc, where those brothers do not really know the people involved / the Elders involved / or the true situation, but can only go by their book of rules, will not bring about justice and mercy that God and Christ require.

Share this post


Link to post
24 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

As JTR (I think it was ) said, the W/t / JW Org is run by the accountants and lawyers .

Haven't you heard from the video Srecko posted under "1914"?  God's Kingdom is ruling!  Apparently he has chosen these lawyers and accountants to fight the fine fight!  The funny thing is, this "Jehovah" is not powerful enough to keep his members out of prison in countries that fight against him.  He's not powerful enough to win all the court cases that arise against his Kingdom rule.   He's not powerful enough to "hold down the fort", but he is an expert at building them.    

Share this post


Link to post

Just the fact that child abuse exists in an organization that declares it is inspired by Holy Spirit – “spirit-directed” -  is evil. (Rev 13:15)  For any JW leaders and members as well, who believe this outcome as beneficial - "good" -  toward upholding the governmental procedures of “God’s organization”,  is also evil. 

Woe to those who call evil good
and good evil,
who substitute darkness for light
and light for darkness,
who substitute bitter for sweet
and sweet for bitter.
21 Woe to those who are wise in their own opinion
and clever in their own sight.
22 Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine,
who are fearless at mixing beer,
23 who acquit the guilty for a bribe
and deprive the innocent of justice.

24 Therefore, as a tongue of fire consumes straw
and as dry grass shrivels in the flame,
so their roots will become like something rotten
and their blossoms will blow away like dust,
for they have rejected
the instruction of the Lord of Hosts,
and they have despised
the word of the Holy One of Israel.  Isa 5:20-24

Share this post


Link to post
3 hours ago, Anna said:

but it is about "you don't have to disclose

If I get a lawyer to defend me on a murder case and the government has access to all my discussions with my lawyer - they can maybe find me guilty on something I said to my lawyer even if I did not do it.

The prosecutor is supposed to do his work and build the case against me with hard evidence and my lawyer is supposed to defend me - even if He does not like me.  This is the secular justice of this world. Flawed - I agree - not perfect. 

Same with clergy.  If I confess something to the clergy - my elder or spiritual mentor, the law can still take me to court and build a good case against me - do due diligence and  find me guilty..... but they must respect the fact that I need advice for my soul. It is unfair/unjust  to use my spiritual advisor to testify against me - be it verbally or written. 

We are speaking secular law now.  There is a plea for compassion once you are found guilty - not before that..... the law must work hard to find you guilty because the premise is you are innocent till proven guilty. This is not Jehovahs law but the law of the government who has the sword.

Once the case is in the hand of the law -  it must proceed according to the government law. One cannot still have one foot in Jehovahs law and other in secular.  I can only use this secular law to get an acquittal or appeal or be found guilty and pay the penalty in this world....

Of course jehovah is the true judge in the ultimate finality ........ but I can still go to jail while innocent.. To carry on that it is not fair afterward is basically useless - the law has the sword.

Human rights court said Russia is breaking international  law -  they carry the sword and do as they please.  We can cry for compassion ..... but in vain.  This is secular justice for you.  Jehovahs justice is better but that will only work perfectly in future.

 

This is why people are outraged: In Epstein's case there is anger because the prosecutor worked with Epstein while knowing he had 37 child trafficking cases against him.....and the lawyers of the victims were told AFTER the fact that a light plea bargain had been reached...... this is how skewed justice has become.

The law must definitely be changed to take away client / clergy priviledge - although there are good arguments for and against it.  Until then,  these outraged people on this forum  can shout against GB in anger and kick and scream for justice and call us all hypocrites.........after due law process.  BUT do  they go and fight to get this secular law removed?   if they love  justice so much,they would. 

I accept that secular law is flawed. Parents must be more careful to protect their children. But young teenage children do not always listen to parents as well.  There is always two sides to every story. 

2 hours ago, Witness said:

Just the fact that child abuse exists in an organization that declares it is inspired by

Such an unrealistic statement (virtue signalling)  tells me you have no connection with reality.  Child abuse exists everywhere in the world.  An anointed brother in the first century slept with his own mother !  He was put out of the congregation and later re-instated. Who knows if there were hidden sex cases then as now.... 

You have no sense of justice.....based on reality.  and you really feel you have the right to give advice on Jehovahs justice and be unbiased and fair?  Wake up old girl.  You are just an emotional  hate mongerer. 

3 hours ago, Witness said:

Jehovah" is not powerful enough to keep his members out of prison in countries that fight against him.  He's not powerful enough to

Bad reasoning for a Christian.  I recall that Jesus was hanging on the stake and similar words were uttered to him.   

Share this post


Link to post
46 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Bad reasoning for a Christian.  I recall that Jesus was hanging on the stake and similar words were uttered to him.   

It was the Son of God that they ridiculed.  Are you bestowing divinity on an organization?  If "God's Kingdom Rules" through the organization, your "god" is very weak at defending the innocent, and following the laws of Christ.  "Love your neighbor as yourself".  Rom 13:9   And, just saying that God's Kingdom rules in the face of corruption committed by those who sell this bill of goods,  is blasphemy toward the Almighty God.

46 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Such an unrealistic statement (virtue signalling)  tells me you have no connection with reality.  Child abuse exists everywhere in the world. 

Are you comparing a "spirit-directed" organization to all other organizations in Satan's world?  Truly, this blasphemes the Holy Spirit.  

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, Arauna said:

Jehovah" is not powerful enough to keep his members out of prison in countries

40 minutes ago, Witness said:

Are you bestowing divinity on an organization?  If

No- she was talking about "individual members"  (see quote under my name directly above- I commented on this) but same type of scorn is projected on all JWs by implication. People do go to prison for not going to war you know..... not all have broken the law.

40 minutes ago, Witness said:

corruption committed by those who sell this bill

 Corruption is a term too broad for me yo comment on.

41 minutes ago, Witness said:

spirit-directed" organization to all other organizations in Satan's world? 

Yes - we are still in this world and have to contend with satan's corrupting influences. We cannot go out of this world..... even if we work hard to not show its spirit. 

It is inevitable that some will bring dishonor on gods name. One cannot expect absolute purity or perfection from any entire organization -  no matter how much holy spirit is on some of its individual members..... it is totaly infantile , unrealistic, immature and unjust to expect that. 

As an individual you can have integrity but not all in an organization has integrity.  Not all in first century congregation had perfect integrity - the seven congregations in Revelation is a good example of that. Jesus commended them but also chastised them for the bad things they were condoning. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, Arauna said:

ou have no sense of justice.....based on reality.  and you really feel you have the right to give advice on Jehovahs justice and be unbiased and fair?  Wake up old girl.  You are just an emotional  hate mongerer. 

 

This is all drama played out on the stage of Satan’s world.  The apparent “lawyers” of God against lawyers in the world. God’s lawyers have been exposed for hiding their sins, but are now commended?   Is one group better than the other?  Possibly, in the eyes of God.  

“This is what the Lord God says: I have set this Jerusalem in the center of the nations, with countries all around her. 6 But she has rebelled against My ordinances with more wickedness than the nations, and against My statutes more than the countries that surround her. For her people have rejected My ordinances and have not walked in My statutes.

“Therefore, this is what the Lord God says:   Because you have been more insubordinate than the nations around youyou have not walked in My statutes or kept My ordinances; you have not even kept the ordinances of the nations around you therefore, this is what the Lord God says: See, I am against you, Jerusalem, and I will execute judgments within you in the sight of the nations.  Because of all your detestable practices, I will do to you what I have never done before and what I will never do again.”  Ezek 5:6-9

As you compare the organization to those of the world,  God puts focus on those under covenant with Him.  Judgment begins with God's House - "Israel".  1 Pet 4:17 

Jesus had this to say to the lawyers and Pharisees of his day.  If the GB had any spiritual cognizance of God’s justice, they would heed the words of Christ:

“But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass by justice and the love of God. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. 43 Woe to you Pharisees! For you love the best seats in the synagogues and greetings in the marketplaces. 44 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like graves which are not seen, and the men who walk over them are not aware of them.”

45 Then one of the lawyers answered and said to Him, “Teacher, by saying these things You reproach us also.”

46 And He said, “Woe to you also, lawyers! For you load men with burdens hard to bear, and you yourselves do not touch the burdens with one of your fingers.”  Luke 11:42-46

Having a sense of justice requires knowing and following the expectations God has set before us, NOT defending injustice and wrongdoing, which is becoming the organization's subtitle... "Jehovah's organization" "The home of injustice and wrongdoing".    

 

 Your organization projects God, Jesus and Holy Spirit, as powerless - needing lawyers to fight their battles in Satan's world, when love for one's neighbor begins at home - the organization itself.  

 

Share this post


Link to post
17 hours ago, Witness said:

Unfortunately, based on our reading of the Montana Supreme Court's opinion, the Court was mislead by testimony offered by the JWs

When you promise your clients the moon and deliver goose eggs, you’ve got to say something. What do you think he is going to say? “I lost because I’m a crummy lawyer?”

15 hours ago, Arauna said:

As I just said - law is law....... no place for compassion. It carrys the sword.... and uses only the sword - nothing else.

It’s why you don’t apologize for anything. It will be framed as a confession. 

Share this post


Link to post

Oh American Jehovah's Witnesses how wonderful you are. 

I thank you for making it known to the world that God's laws and Jesus Christ's instruction are different in each and every state of America. That God's standards are different in every state of America. 

I do hope you are so pleased with your GB and their lawyers. I'm sure that you are all glad that your GB have saved themselves some money.  

I'm sure you have not one shred of feeling for any Victim of Child Sexual Abuse in the JW Org. 

It is the teachings in the JW Org to lose all 'emotion', to rid ones self of fellow feelings and to give praise to the Org and it's GB. So be it. Your GB tell you that you MUST be a Baptised JW to gain salvation, and you believe them. Your GB said that those Victims of CSA were actually apostates telling lies, and you believed your GB. Your GB tells you that Armageddon is 'so close' 'its just around that corner', and you believe the GB. Your GB tells the Elders that it is right to tell lies as it is part of spiritual warfare, and you continue to believe it all. But you then pretend that you don't serve your GB. 

John Butler had a favourite phrase 'Collateral Damage'. Well some of you think (and say) that I am John Butler.. You are truly welcome to have your own thought as to who I am....  However maybe it is a British way of thinking, to have thoughts and feelings for others. I'm afraid I do not think it is an American way of thinking at all.  So America is probably not the best place to have the HQ of what you think is God's Organisation.  Having an all American GB or American influenced GB, is proving to be not good. They seem more worried about the money and their OWN positions, than they are about serving God properly. And the GB certainly have no love for CSA Victims in the Org. 

Share this post


Link to post
On 1/11/2020 at 4:55 PM, Anna said:

Hopefully more brothers and sisters will gain a better conscience and report any wrongdoings to Police and Authorities as it still seems that Elders are exempt from doing so

When a person is a alcoholic or drug addict, what is the common goal of rehab?

To help the person gain a relationship with God! With Hope that a higher responsibility toward God will help the person refrain from wrong doing.

2 Corinthians 10:5 For we are overturning reasonings and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are bringing every thought into captivity to make it obedient to the Christ; 

A person may imagine sexual scenarios, is this the Christian thing to do? NO. A person seeking to be pleasing before God must try to control thought and actions. Why? See Galatians 5:19-21. 

Jehovah's Witnesses teach what fornication is and how such imagination is the first step of sin. What is sexual sin in God's eyes. To arouse sexual desire in someone who is not your wife or husband. This can be done many different ways.The Watchtower magazine often teaches it's readers to abstain from thoughts or actions that will cause emotional and spiritual pain. The congregation will always try to help individuals to "have the mind of Christ"

The Bible teaches of one of David's sons who imagined his half sister would react differently. In his mind he had left any desire to please God, and was full throttle toward satisfying the sexual passion that  imagination had built within him. 

2 Samuel 13 Now David’s son Absalom had a beautiful sister named Taʹmar, and David’s son Amʹnon fell in love with her. 

Amnon played sick and arranged for her to come cook him a meal. 

9 Then she took the pan and served him. But Amʹnon refused to eat and said: “Have everybody leave me!” So everybody left him.10 Amʹnon now said to Taʹmar: “Bring the food into the bedroom, so that I may eat it from your hand.” So Taʹmar took the heart-shaped cakes that she had made and brought them to her brother Amʹnon in the bedroom.11 When she brought them for him to eat, he grabbed her and said: “Come, lie down with me, my sister.”12 But she said to him: “No, my brother! Do not humiliate me, for such a thing is not done in Israel. Do not do this disgraceful thing.13 How could I live down my shame? And you will be regarded as one of the disgraceful men in Israel. Now speak, please, to the king, for he will not withhold me from you.”14 But he refused to listen to her, and he overpowered her and humiliated her by raping her.

With What Result?

15 Then Amʹnon began hating her with a very intense hatred, so that his hatred for her became greater than the love he had felt for her. Amʹnon said to her: “Get up; go away!” 

After his sexual passion was satisfied his chemicals returned him to reality and He Now hated her for not matching his imagination. In moments his thinking was changed, however, I'm sure desire soon returned. 

Sexual transgressions are nothing new in the world, however the wickedness is reaching higher levels than ever before. 2 Timothy 3:13 states that in our time "But wicked men and impostors will advance from bad to worse, misleading and being misled."

The cause: Every type of sexual desire can be fed on TV, Videos,The Web, magazines and any kind of product commercials.There is no conduct kept in the closet as unspeakable or shameful conduct. 

Though there may be individuals that have left any sense of responsibility to Jehovah behind, there is no reason to color the entire organization of people with the same brush.Jehovah's Witnesses are the only organization on Earth performing the expressed will of God as we read at Matthew 24:14 and Mark 13:10. They try to live their lives with a consciousness toward the Holy God they represent and teach others about. 

Most of Jehovah's Witnesses hate seeing the name of their God mentioned in a way that brings reproach and shame upon it. They hate that someone in their midst would act as a pedophile or betray the relationship between elder and those seeking spiritual help. When such a person is found in the congregation they are subjected to scrutiny by the elder body. It may be very difficult to tell whether a person is truly repentant. The world knows that if a person is found to be a non-repentant person, as someone who may cause harm to the congregation,or that they will continue to practice something that God hates, they are expelled from the congregation, this is what God Himself had instructed towards Moses sister who complained about Moses wife. Later in the 1st century, congregations were instructed to do this that the wrongdoer may repent and reapply themselves to reach out for God's approval. This is much like Jews previously practiced by removing people from the Sanhedrin, who actual had to move away from God's people in order to be able to work and live.  

Jehovah's Witnesses have great desire that the day will soon appear when Jehovah reads the inner person of every adult on Earth and each one will be marked as a sheep or a goat.The goats: everyone who has no personal relationship with the true God Jehovah, will no longer do any harmful acts or acts of any kind on Earth. While the sheep, those who have tried to act in a way that pleases God, both in their imagination and visible acts, will be allowed to continue living on Earth and growing towards the perfection Jesus enjoyed as a human being.These are ones who make a practice of bringing every thought into captivity to make it obedient to the Christ; this is the only solution to the excelling of wickedness being imagined and practiced on Earth. 

The Goal of Satan:As God's adversary, is to distort how you view any of Jehovah's Witnesses. He wants you see something unholy, transgressors of what is good. He propels this thought so that you will be less likely to listen to them while they do the will of God, just as Jesus did, preach the Good News of God's Kingdom. Just as Satan used many different means to stop Jesus from loyally acting as God's appointed Messiah, Satan will use many different ways to stop people from learning how God's Kingdom will set all matters straight. Satan does not want anyone to gain eternal life as Jehovah's friend since he will not be allowed life after his judgment is executed. That Good News of God's Kingdom includes the knowledge that God will give what is deserving to everyone bringing reproach on His Holy Name. You should also know that the majority of Jehovah's Witnesses hate what is bad and try to act as an exemplary neighbor!

 

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, the Sower of Seed said:

You should also know that the majority of Jehovah's Witnesses hate what is bad and try to act as an exemplary neighbor!

Thank you for taking the time to write such an excellent reply based on incidents in the bible.   Your entire reply indicated that you understand the issues involved which originate inside the person - the desires. It deals with the imperfect realities of humans and reminds us that we all are dust and Jehovah puts up with us all!  No human organization can ever be perfect because it comprises imperfect people.

Anna's response, which you replied to, indicates that family members and others must report these issues to authorities.  Sometimes those who know about the crime are advised to report it but choose not to do so. This also heaps finger pointing on the org.

If one has a hammer in your hand then everything looks like a nail. Some carry hammers all the time when it comes to JWs.......... logical reasoning disperses and the hammer becomes the focus. So be prepared..... they will find something to hammer on..... but  I could learn from the way you wrote that.  

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
1 minute ago, Arauna said:

Anna's response, which you replied to,

Wasn't my response!

On 1/11/2020 at 10:57 AM, 4Jah2me said:

Hopefully more brothers and sisters will gain a better conscience and report any wrongdoings to Police and Authorities as it still seems that Elders are exempt from doing so. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

brothers and sisters will gain a better conscience and

One cannot go around suspecting everyone. When you go to the police to report you must have something more than just a gut feeling.  This is the realities of life.  Police in UK and other first world countries are famous for taking down real events and doing nothing.  People in the congregation may think it was not reported when case numbers have been forgotten.  So this can also become a point of contention later when it comes to light. Accusers against JWs   look for those discrepancies to focus on.

I, myself will report this behaviour if I see something that seems to be  more than a suspicion but how many witnesses (or worldly people for that matter) have education on this and know how to recognize it when there are clear signs.  You mentioned a case where a woman left her children with a perpetrator who was a family member.  

I know my daughter has left her daughter with good people for a couple of hours because she had no-one else to leave her child with in an emergency when she could not arrange ahead if time for a nanny from a reputable place.  Life happens and parents do take chances when there is no-one else to turn to. This is the realities of life.  You mentioned that she lost her  case because she took that chance in a difficult situation. Sad.... but this is governmental law...... it does not have compassion. 

Sorry about the quotes ...... I struggle so much to select with my hands - I make a mess of it......and take a quote where I manage to be able to select it........ a bad girl.

Most of my friends tell me I look so healthy and vibrant.... but my hand and eyes keep me humble....... my thorn in the flesh.  

 

5 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

That God's standards are different in every state of America. 

The secular law is the law -  once you get yourself in their system you are subject to it. It has the sword.   Get that? I guess not.  The only remedy may come when you are accused falsely or reported falsely yourself....... you will then be the first to cry foul. 

In UK your secular laws do not respect any religious laws except that of the muslims.  Police have persecuted fathers who have gone to authorities with real proof of rape.  This is the realities of life  (and differences) between secular laws and ordinary people who just try to live godly lives. 

Share this post


Link to post

@the Sower of Seed  A person may imagine sexual scenarios, is this the Christian thing to do?

What is sexual sin in God's eyes. To arouse sexual desire in someone who is not your wife or husband.

@Arauna the issues involved which originate inside the person - the desires

Well then maybe you can both explain how two past members of the Governing Body were Homosexuals. 

Jesus words at Matthew 5 v 28 

    Hello guest!

But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

So how did brothers in Bethel know that GB members were homosexual. After all if that GB member even had thoughts of homosexuality then they were committing homosexuality in their hearts. Now surely as Anointed ones that would be sinning against the spirit. 

Some of you joke about 'tight pants Tony' of the GB, but is any of that really funny concerning the supposedly Anointed of God.

Not one of you JWs seem to realise any seriousness in any thing I write. I do think it is because many of you are American and as such you have become hardened of heart.  (I would think it is harder emotionally to live in USA) And @Arauna can easily be seen as hard hearted, also Mr Harley.  Yes the world is horrid and we do need to toughen up of course, otherwise we will 'sink', but I do definitely see a lack of love and  fellow feeling on this forum. 

To think that your 'guidance' comes via the Watchtower which is not inspired of God and which is written by ordinary men who also have wrong desires it seems, having read lots of things on here which seem to go on at Bethel. And that your GB are more interested in their own position and the 'money in their bank accounts', than they are in people who have been wronged by your Org. But JWs still serve the Org blindly. Still putting their money in, and still trying to encourage others to be part of it. 

But, if you put all your effort into walking 100 miles to a destination, you will not reach that destination if you are walking in the wrong direction because you have been misguided.  So, is your GB and it's Org really guiding you in the right direction ? An important question is, 'Are your GB / Writing Department / management / elders, really qualified to guide you?'  Well the scriptures say 'By their works you will know them'.  And it's a poor show right now. 

Share this post


Link to post
9 hours ago, Arauna said:

Some carry hammers all the time when it comes to JWs.......... logical reasoning disperses and the hammer becomes the focus.

But whoever stumbles one of these little ones who have faith in me, it would be better for him to have hung around his neck a millstone that is turned by a donkey and to be sunk in the open sea.” Matthew 18:6

I am quite certain due to my exhaustive research that in the secret files of the WNMF.org there is an unrun help-wanted ad—and I could prove the existence of if the The Librarian would release her files (what does the old hen have to hide?)—that reads:

Help Wanted: Corrections officer to fasten the millstone upon stumbler-criminals. Apply WNMF, M-F, 8-5, send portfolio of posts contributed to this forum.”

Furthermore, I have knowledge that Mr Admin and the Librarian actually ran the ad briefly, and it drew enough replies to crash their system.

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

person may imagine sexual scenarios, is this the Christian thing to do?

He was giving an example.... so what are u getting åt? 

 

2 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

seem to realise any seriousness in any thing I write

I definitively like to learn and listen but when contributors overreact constantly on every subject then a teaching moment has passed. 

2 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

definitely see a lack of love and  fellow feeling on this forum. 

Ditto.  

 

3 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

To think that your 'guidance' comes via the Watchtower which is not inspired of God and which is written by ordinary men who also have wrong desires it seems, having read lots of things on here which seem to go on at Bethel. And that your GB are more interested in their own position and the 'money in their bank accounts', than they are in people who have been wronged by your Org. But JWs still serve the Org blindly. Still putting their money in, and still trying to encourage others to be part of it

Accusations, accusations..... rather  read the bible. It will serve you better.  You are not going to learn anything healthy for your soul on this forum. This is a forum to stumble everyone  who may read all its accusations and some of the slander.  If you think this advice from me is hard-hearted..... please re-evaluate (I mean it sincerely). This is a pretty nasty place - satan's ideas being promoted openly by those who hate jehovah and JWs.

3 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Are your GB / Writing Department / management / elders, really qualified to guide you?'  Well the scriptures say 'By their works you will know them'.  And it's a poor show right now. 

When last have you been to one of our meetings or read our magazines? Evaluate it for yourself - do not just judge.  Do not judge on what you read here! This is not a healthy place! 

Share this post


Link to post
On 1/12/2020 at 2:29 AM, JW Insider said:

You should speak with some of the Watchtower attorneys. I don't think you will ever again claim that they would like to give the victim compensation.

How, exactly, does $20 million for the plaintiff repair her trauma?

How, exactly, does $10 million for the lawyer repair that victim’s trauma?

The world is very eager to punish with regard to child sexual abuse, but does it actually do anything to prevent it? 

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

How, exactly, does $20 million for the plaintiff repair her trauma?

How, exactly, does $10 million for the lawyer repair that victim’s trauma?

The world is very eager to punish with regard to child sexual abuse, but does it actually do anything to prevent it? 

Well at least the plaintiff could be miserable in luxury :) ..  But I agree with you that millions of $$$ in payouts are too high. So who is it that decides on the amount ? Because as you seem to be saying, it disputes the genuineness of the claim.  But is there ever an apology on behalf of the Watchtower / JW Org ? 

One other point of course is, would a qualified lawyer be prepared to fight a case for a Victim if there was no financial reward for the lawyer. Lawyers are part of the devil's world, and money seems to be what drives them. You cannot expect an experienced lawyer to work for no pay. And it needs very experienced lawyers to fight the GB and their lawyers, because the GB's lawyers play dirty. :) 

Also, you cannot expect the devil's world to work toward preventing child sexual abuse can you ?  Its kinda funny how @Arauna follows 'world conditions' and uses them as signs of the times, whereas you seem to be expecting signs of improvement to worldly moral standards. But you know things will get worse not better. This is why JW Org should be compared to God's high standards, not compared to the devil's world. It would be too easy to say JW Org is better than the devil's world, but it would prove nothing. 

========================================================

New comment. 

@the Sower of Seed  Said :  A person may imagine sexual scenarios, is this the Christian thing to do?

  4 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

person may imagine sexual scenarios, is this the Christian thing to do?

@Arauna   said He was giving an example.... so what are u getting åt? 

Members of the Governing Body, it seems, were Homosexual.  It also seems, if information is correct, that a member of Bethel was sexually assaulted by such a one.  There have been other reports on here, of immoral behavior at Bethel.

Those GB members would have contributed to Watchtower articles. Also it gives reason to believe that the Writing department personnel might not be exactly worthy of producing information on God;s behalf.  With 'pillowgate' and other examples it does not look good for the GB / Org / Bethel in USA. 

Unfortunately i don't keep all the info i read on this forum, and those that have given info' might not wish to confirm the info they originally gave, so I only have the remnants of the knowledge in my head.  But the information I have read on here was obviously given voluntarily by those that had worked / possibly do work at Bethel, so there is no reason for me to disbelieve it.  

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

How, exactly, does $20 million for the plaintiff repair her trauma?

Money makes all sorts of pain magically go away, didn't you know that? 

Interestingly, in the Montana case (and I only know this because as I said, I read the court transcript, over 400 pages of it, in order to get a clear and unbiased view) one of the victims (the other sibling who also reported the abuse) did not want to become a part of the lawsuit. He said in his deposition that he just wants to get on with his life. In other words, he was not interested in money to "repair his trauma". This victim was the only one who is still in the truth. So it appears he was more interested in remaining one of Jehovah's Witnesses than in money. Now I am sure there will be malcontents (as you call them) who will claim that he must have been brainwashed into being loyal to the organization. All speculation of course. But the more realistic approach is; maybe he just liked being one of Jehovah's Witnesses, and therefor why would he want to claim damages from a community that he likes being a part of, especially when he knew they were not responsible for what his stepdad did to him. He knew his step dad was going to be prosecuted, and that was enough justice for him. Obviously, he felt that his spirituality helped him in overcoming his trauma. But if one doesn't have that kind of faith, then money is the next best thing.

32 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

Members of the Governing Body, it seems, were Homosexual.  It also seems, if information is correct, that a member of Bethel was sexually assaulted by such a one.  There have been other reports on here, of immoral behavior at Bethel.

Don't forget, this was never condoned. Anything can happen if done in secret.

Share this post


Link to post
40 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

Lawyers are part of the devil's world, and money seems to be what drives them. 

Not all lawyers.

40 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

You cannot expect an experienced lawyer to work for no pay.

I know some who do it all the time.

40 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

And it needs very experienced lawyers to fight the GB and their lawyers, because the GB's lawyers play dirty. :) 

They only “play dirty” in your eyes because they beat your side.

14 minutes ago, Anna said:

 why would he want to claim damages from a community that he likes being a part of, especially when he knew they were not responsible for what his stepdad did to him. He knew his step dad was going to be prosecuted, and that was enough justice for him.

Exactly. Look, if someone offered me $20 million (or bought enough of my books to total that amount—hint, hint) I would take it in a heartbeat if there were no strings attached. But the “strings attached” in this instance is kicking the organization in the teeth which is likely more proactive than anyone in actually preventing child sexual abuse.

Share this post


Link to post
15 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

When a person is a alcoholic or drug addict, what is the common goal of rehab?

To help the person gain a relationship with God! With Hope that a higher responsibility toward God will help the person refrain from wrong doing.

Yes, agree. Also, one has to avoid situations that could re-ignite this addiction. With drugs, one has to completely cut ties with the drug based community. With alcohol, one must completely avoid it, even just one drink. However, with the "addiction" of molesting children, in other words pedophilia, there is a problem. One cannot avoid being around children entirely. So what has happened is pedophiles have been in a position where re-offending was made possible. And that has been the problem all along.

Share this post


Link to post

Quote @TrueTomHarley  " But whoever stumbles one of these little ones who have faith in me, it would be better for him to have hung around his neck a millstone that is turned by a donkey and to be sunk in the open sea.” Matthew 18:6 "

Quote @Anna " But if one doesn't have that kind of faith, then money is the next best thing. "

There you are Anna, the answer to why those ones lost their faith. They were stumbled by Paedophiles, then stumbled by their Elders not acting properly to sort it out.  AND WHAT FOLLOWED  WAS  :-

Quote @Anna

 So what has happened is pedophiles have been in positions where re-offending was made possible. And that has been the problem all along. 

You and Tom have proven the point for me, Thank you. 

But Anna, why were those paedophiles allowed to be ' in positions where re-offending was made possible.'  ? That seems to be the whole point of the court cases. To establish, who new the facts, and who allowed the paedophiles to have those positions where re-offending was made possible.' 

  •  

Share this post


Link to post
21 hours ago, Witness said:

Your organization projects God, Jesus and Holy Spirit, as powerless - needing lawyers to fight their battles in Satan's world, when love for one's neighbor begins at home - the organization itself.  

These are two thoughts, not well connected.   

Anointed ones were initially drawn together BEFORE the organization was established.  It was under this premise, that they gathered:

"Beware of "organization." It is wholly un-necessary. The Bible will be the only rules you need. Do not seek to bind other consciences, and do not permit others to bind yours. Believe and obey so far as you can understand God's word today, and so continue to growing in grace and knowledge day by day." (Zion's Watch Tower, 1895, p. 216.) 

"In view of these facts and also of the nature of the harvest work, and the addition. In fact that each one so gathered is expected to enter into the harvest work as a reaper, and will do so to the extent of his ability and opportunity, it is plain that the forming of a visible organization of such gathered out ones would be out of harmony with the spirit of the divine plan; and, it done, would seem to indicate on the part of the Church a desire to conform to the now popular idea of organization or confederacy. (See Isa. 8:12.) ... While, therefore, we do not esteem a visible organization of the gathered ones to be a part of the Lord's plan in the harvest work, as though we expected as an organization to abide here for another age, we do esteem it to be his will that those that love the Lord should speak often one to another of their common hopes and joys, or trials and perplexities, communing together concerning the precious things of his Word, and so help one another, and not forget the assembling of themselves together as the manner of some is; and so much the more as they see the day approaching. -- Mal. 3: 16; Heb. 10:25." (Zion's Watch Tower, 1894, p. 384.)

"There is no organization today clothed with such divine authority to imperiously command mankind. There is no organization doing this today; though we are well aware that many of them in theory claim that they ought to be permitted to do so; and many more would like to do so. This was the fatal mistake into which the Church began to fall in the second century; and the effort to realize this false conception culminated in the boastful, imperious counterfeiting of the coming Kingdom in Papacy, which for centuries sought to dominate the world, by claimed "divine authority". This idea more or less pervaded and poisoned the ideas of all the Protestant "clergy" as well; who copying Papacy's false ideas of the Church, claim also that the Church of Christ is now organized, though they now make less boastful claims to "divine authority" to teach and rule mankind in general, that the Papacy does." (Zion's Watch Tower, 1893, page 266.)

From,

    Hello guest!
 

All of this truth, has dissolved over time; and the organization today at its peak of corruption, shows evidence of its peak as a lie, against God’s anointed, spiritual “organization” under Christ.  Rev 13: 1,2,5-9; 16:13-15

As time has gone by, this priesthood of God has been consumed by a tally of millions who have joined what is now, a necessary “evil”.  There is nothing wrong with people gathered with anointed ones. It is happening on the other side of the WT fence, never to be organized by man’s will.  What is wrong with WT, is the GB’s dismissal of God’s priests gradually, over the spanning years of the organization's development.

Representing the royal priesthood are appointed elders, who serve in positions of responsibility in congregations of Jehovah’s people around the earth. These men deserve our respect and wholehearted support, whether they are of the anointed or not. Why? Because, through his holy spirit, Jehovah has appointed the older men to their positions.   Wt 02/8/1

 This necessary evil requires a priesthood of its own, where its priests answer to their “High Priest”, the GB.  False christs.  Matt 24:24 Thus, they have "ordained" a priesthood for their own.   True anointed have written on their hearts, the laws of God through the outpouring of Holy Spirit. Heb 8:10 God wouldn’t do this if He didn’t expect His servants to teach the people, as priests have always been admonished to do.  Mal 2:7; 1 Pet 2:5,9 

 Except for a minority of elders who truly try to “love your neighbor as yourself”, the majority of elders are “heartless” to this guidance Jesus has taught us. Isa 3:12; Ezek 34; Rev 9:9,10; Joel 2:2-9  Those elders who make the effort to obey Christ’s law of love, in most cases leave, or just give up and answer to "lawlessness".

So, the elder body can play the role of a clergy class at its whim in the court systems, when it is advantageous for the organization. Other times, it uses the excuse that all men are imperfect and make mistakes.  As I have said, if the organization belonged to God, only His authentic priests would lead as shepherds.  What would guide them in all cases, would be the "written letter" fulfilled in Christ, and inscribed on their hearts.  2 Cor 3:3

All the excuses made in defense of the organization’s need to fight for its rights in court, mean nothing to God or Christ. It is no different than what other organizations in the world of Satan face.  If Christ said, "my kingdom is not part of this world", (John 18:36)  a JW should ask, why do men make it so?   God's priesthood/Temple has been rejected and trampled, for the sustaining benefit of an idol  (1 Cor 3:16,17)  Matt 24:14; 2 Thess 2:3,4; Rev 11:1-3; Ezek 44:6-9

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many miracles in your name?’ 23 And then I will say to them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you who practice lawlessness!’  Matt 7:21-23

What has developed over time since its inception, is a devouring monster.  Rev 13:1,2,10,11,12,15

Share this post


Link to post
55 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

But Anna, why were those paedophiles allowed to be ' in positions where re-offending was made possible.'  ? That seems to be the whole point of the court cases. To establish, who new the facts, and who allowed the paedophiles to have those positions where re-offending was made possible.' 

Actually, I was not talking about "positions" as in "positions of responsibility" (i.e. elder or something like that) I was talking about positions as in being able to be physically in the vicinity of children. That is why I said this was an impossibility to avoid, unless one was physically removed from society all together, (or unless children were physically removed from the vicinity of the perpetrator).

One website says this: "In most cases, children won’t be removed from a home without clear indications the child is in danger. However, the child will remain under the supervision of child welfare services until the parents can assure caseworkers that they will provide a safe environment" .

Facts are not easy to come by. Obviously someone who has molested a child will try to make sure of that!

14 hours ago, Arauna said:

When you go to the police to report you must have something more than just a gut feeling.

I think the new mantra (at least in the USA) now is "Trust your gut. If you suspect a child may be in danger, call 911 or call your State Child Abuse and Neglect Reporting Numbers".

A website also says:

"Whether out of fear of getting sued by the abuser for making false accusations, or a sense of not wanting to “get involved,” child abuse often goes undetected or unreported by those closest to it.

"Don’t worry about being sued for reporting child abuse. State programs receiving federal funds are required to provide immunity to people who make good-faith reports of child abuse or neglect".

"Persons who report suspected child abuse in good faith are generally* immune from liability, and their identity is protected from the abuser".

    Hello guest!

* not sure what circumstance would constitute an exemption to this, but just because a lawsuit was filed against the Mormon church for breaking confidentiality, it doesn't mean the plaintiff will win. Most likely the court will find the Mormon church acted that way for the safety of the child, and the suit will be thrown out of court. I think these matters to do with children are in a class of their own, as opposed to the rape or assault of an adult, the uniqueness being that a child cannot give consent, and it is the right of the child to expect to be protected, because it cannot protect itself. A website I posted a link to in my earlier post, and JWI drew attention to it, has this to say about Clergy confidentiality: "However, there may be times when it is appropriate to share confidential information, under extreme circumstances where people may be killed or severely injured. There are only nine cases in the history of this country (USA) where a minister was sued for breaching the duty of confidentiality. Of those, only three of the cases found the minister civilly liable for sharing confidences. In the other six cases, the courts concluded there was no duty under the circumstances for the minister to keep the confidentiality. So it can be concluded that ministers who decide to share confidential information should not in most cases be held personally liable from a legal standpoint, but they certainly won’t be held legally liable for not sharing. The exception to this rule is child abuse. In 41 states clergy are mandatory reporters of suspected or known child abuse".

    Hello guest!

 

Share this post


Link to post

Quote @Anna  unless one was physically removed from society all together, 

Then so it should be.... JW or otherwise.... But as i tried to say to Tom, its the devil's world so they will be allowed to carry on with their disgusting ways. 

Quote "In most cases, children won’t be removed from a home without clear indications the child is in danger. '     

Child welfare services have hard decisions both ways, but cost would be a big problem and places to re-home children. And those working in 'Child welfare' are still part of that 'wicked world' that JWs warn everyone about. So who can be trusted ? The whole world is in such a mess.

JWs say that anything outside of JW Org, is part of the 'wicked world'. But then we can see that a lot of things 'inside JW Org' are wicked things too.  Not one human can be trusted. Its obvious why the scripture says 'Put not your trust in earthling man'. 

    Hello guest!
 Psalm 146 v 3 
Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
 

 

Share this post


Link to post
3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

How, exactly, does $20 million for the plaintiff repair her trauma?

How, exactly, does $10 million for the lawyer repair that victim’s trauma?

The world is very eager to punish with regard to child sexual abuse, but does it actually do anything to prevent it? 

I believe how money can't REPAIR the Trauma.

Money can do other things, other sorts of help for victim.  

Share this post


Link to post

If anyone is interested in reading the actual transcript of the Supreme Court's decision, here is the link:

    Hello guest!

So you can decide whether Jehovah's Witnesses lied to the Montana court about confidentiality. Remarks and comments are welcome (at least welcomed by me 😀)

Share this post


Link to post
53 minutes ago, Anna said:

If anyone is interested in reading the actual transcript of the Supreme Court's decision, here is the link:

    Hello guest!

So you can decide whether Jehovah's Witnesses lied to the Montana court about confidentiality. Remarks and comments are welcome (at least welcomed by me 😀)

I don't have the concentration span for it thank you. 

But isn't the jist of it, that the GB / JW Org use of 'confidentiality' is totally different to what normal people would think of confidentiality ?  Isn't it that JWs can tell Elders, Circuit Overseers, HQ, et al, but still say that is is confidential. Whereas, Catholics use confidential to mean between one person and one priest. And Doctors use it to mean between one patient and one doctor.  I would certainly use it to mean only two people, the one offering the information and the one hearing that information.  But if your GB and in fact you JWs are happy to accept the 'spiritual warfare' used by GB lawyers then so be it. I'm sure God or Christ will judge you all in time. Especially the GB, that pretend they are Anointed, but, 'by their works' we know are not. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Money can do other things, other

We all know that money does not buy happiness.  Not only the lawyer will get 10 mil. but the psychiatrists will make a bit too! 

 Excuse me for being cynical but the way people use drugs these days  to kill all pain, they most probably end up being able to party and afford some expensive drugs..... 

27 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

GB, that pretend they are Anointed, but, 'by

I am sure you know all about it! 

2 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

most cases, children won’t be removed from a home without clear indications the child is in danger. '

Do not be so naive about the world.  Child welfare services have been privatized just like the prisons.... and a lot of money is to be made....... and kn the side... child trafficking for sex.

I have listened to a few programs of cover ups regarding child trafficking and child homes being used for this - networks which cross borders.

They also take children away from vulnerable mothers .... listened to a case recently where they took a child away from a  mother who looked vulnerable..... she had to fight for her child but the child had already been sexually abused by the system.

Both in England and US there are some horror stories regarding  this scenario.  The world has changed - one cannot trust these authorities any more where money is to be made. Good investigative reporters are assassinated or for some reason commit suicide.....

2 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

But then we can see that a lot of things 'inside JW Org' are wicked things too.  Not one human can be trusted. Its obvious why the scripture says 'Put not your trust in earthling man'. 

True - no organization is perfect .... there are always individuals who will let jehovah down.... but it does not mean that we are not his people.... we fulfill the prophecies.

3 hours ago, Anna said:

Trust your gut. If you suspect a child may be in danger, call 911 or call your State Child Abuse and Neglect Reporting Numbers".

A website also says:

"Whether out of fear of getting sued by the abuser for making false accusations, or a sense of not wanting to “get involved,” child abuse often goes undetected or unreported by those closest to it.

"Don’t worry about being sued for reporting child abuse. State programs receiving federal funds are required to provide immunity to people who make good-faith reports of child abuse or neglect".

"Persons who report suspected child abuse in go

Thrust your gut opens up the possibility of "mischief by law". .. just saying.   

 

Share this post


Link to post
9 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

But isn't the jist of it, that the GB / JW Org use of 'confidentiality' is totally different to what normal people would think of confidentiality ?  Isn't it that JWs can tell Elders, Circuit Overseers, HQ, et al, but still say that is is confidential. Whereas, Catholics use confidential to mean between one person and one priest.

It doesn't matter what the JW version of confidentiality is or was. The question posed in the heading of this post is: "Did Jehovah's Witnesses lie to the Montana court about confidentiality"

The answer is no, the JWs did not lie about confidetiality. The court was fully aware of the JW's version of confidentiality before it made its decision to reverse the judgment. The court reversed its judgment on the basis of the JWs version of confidentiality.

Page13 of the Court's Decision: "the summary judgment record demonstrates that Jehovah’s Witnesses have an established process for receiving and investigating reports of child abuse within their congregations; that they consider this process confidential; and that the process necessarily involves multiple elders and congregation members, including the accused, CCJW elders who provide spiritual guidance, and local elders who conduct the investigation."

9 hours ago, Arauna said:

Thrust your gut opens up the possibility of "mischief by law". .. just saying.   

Not sure what you mean by that....but if you mean that this could be misused to intentionally falsely accuse someone, then yes, that is true. Trust is put in the good will of people, and it is assumed that they will not make things up. People like to believe in the general goodness of humanity.  And there are many “good” people out there. But yes, this trust can, and has been abused, no doubt about that. I even have know of an experience where that happened. The underage daughter in the custody of her dad, wanted to go and live with her mom, so she made up a story about her dad, that he was beating her. She called child abuse helpline. I don't think we should underestimate the training these people have in knowing how to recognize authentic reports. The authorities came and investigated, and found out the real truth. The authorities are usually not quick at condemning someone without due proof. (We are taking about civilised countries). Separating families merely because someone suspects foul play usually is not the procedure.

Share this post


Link to post
9 hours ago, Anna said:

Now I am sure there will be malcontents (as you call them) who will claim that he must have been brainwashed into being loyal to the organization.

I have called them “malcontents” because I don’t want to get @admin going again. Remember how he yelled at us all, saying that the rest of the world has moved on and nobody cares if people in the JW world are crying ‘apostate’ at each other and they think we’re all nuts? Who wants to risk that tirade again?

He has a point. It does have to ring a little crazy to anyone else. Will he accept my explanation that the early Christians had apostates as virulent—so virulent that two entire chapters of the Bible are devoted to them (2 Peter 2, Jude 1) and there is no NT writer that does not come to grips with them? I wouldn’t hold my breath.

From the meta-data of ‘TrueTom vs the Apostates!’—

No New Testament writer fails to deal with then-rampant apostasy—a movement which finds its counterpart today. Two Bible chapters are entirely dedicated to it. Apostates of that time would “despise authority.” How could that become a problem unless there was authority? They loved “lawlessness.” How could that become a problem unless there was law? They favored acts of “brazen conduct,” had “eyes full of adultery,” and were “unable to desist from sin.” How could that become a problem unless there was someone to tell them that they could not carry on in that way? Not only is the nature of apostates revealed in the above Bible verses, but also the nature of the Christian organization. 

Any faith too bland to have quality apostates—I am almost proud of ours—is too bland to be given the time of day. They validate us. The more “respectable” churches where anything goes—what would people apostatize from?

But the general audience may weary of the term “apostate.” So I say “malcontent,” “detractor,” “grumbler.” It’s just to throw Admin off the track. Because you know and I know the song these “malcontents” sing at their secret gatherings—the Queen song: 

We’re the apostates, my friends

And we'll keep on fighting 'til the end

We’re the apostates

We’re the apostates

No way we’re losers

'Cause we’re the apostates of the world.”

Share this post


Link to post

For all of you dissecting this case, an opinion from a retired justice of the Montana Supreme Court

"Religion does not give sexual predators a pass"

    Hello guest!

 

Share this post


Link to post
12 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.

Yes, this system has become so evil/vile and full of corruption that one cannot even trust governments to do the right thing any longer. The theatrical  divisions in government is an indication of what is going on below the unseen surface. 

True justice is something from the past.  This is how I really see this  worldly governmental system at present. There are many good people still left but they are helpless to do anything any longer because the system is now rigged with powerful 'wicked' people against them in all the right places - on top.

Children are not safe in the child care system any longer where large pockets of child trafficking has been covered up and child syndicates have now become international. Private companies and criminal gangs have gained control of the child care system in some areas and can pick from  the vulnerable children still in their parent's care. Not the entire child care system is wicked but pockets exist where governors or high officials close him are in on the game. I have listened to a few hair- raising stories while cooking.

Jeffrey Epstein's story is one of more..... where airplanes are used to transport young children around and they end up visiting private homes and parties etc.....pizza gate stories surface. ......and it is prevalent in the top echelons of society.  Both UK and USA involved. Part of Epsteins black book was released  (I cannot remember if it was by hackers) and top British officials were included.  Britain it has a long history of child sex, with PM Ted Heath one of them, royals, child TV presenters etc.

Prince Andrew was grilled because a few photos of him surfaced in the tabloids but the Clinton's are untouchable. Saw a new photo of mr Clinton recently with a young girl of Epsteins trafficked group. Absolutely nothing in the press afterwards. 

True investigative reporters and true whistleblowers end up dead in USA and UK and it is ruled a suicide.  Cover-up is all over. Watched a 60 minute recently where people spoke of one corroner always called out in in top cases. His history of false death reports was exposed. He was working with top officials.

Corruption in  law enforcement is high. I know of several policemen who ended up dead. Listened to one (fbi/cia -i forgot) who fled to Moscow.... to save his life and spoke about the corruption high up.... no longer safe to be a real (not fake) whistleblower.

Listened to a soldier's story recently  where she said she was moved to a new base  that was weird. The rules were different. She was targeted because she asked questions. She said money was disappearing from the ledgers.  Inadvertently by photocopying  the ledgers and proving financial  corruption ........she uncovered a child sex ring - trafficking. ......  She realised higher people were involved in the money scam when she was targeted after she went whistleblowing to higher officials ....but not in her wildest dreams did she suspect that  children were involved..... That only came out in the full investigation..... She had appealed to central government....as a last resort. She heard of a death at the base - a suicide before she came. She was suspicious.   True whistleblowers are in danger now .......because perpetrators are protected by powerful people.

This is why I think - the water on the top of this worldly system looks acceptable (it has the appearance that it is not yet a complete lunatic asylum)  but when one peers one centimeter below the surface -  the world has become  a paranna tank.  First world countries, where a lot of money can be made, is now the same as third world countries, totally corrupt.  Child trafficking is up there with drugs in revenue.

Citizens are no longer protected. Daily people are knived to death in Europe..... officials know what is the problem is but refuse to acknowledge it or write about it in the press. It is a taboo subject. People shout the extremist words when killing Jews or infidels.... but the officials "still have to determine the reason".  With child trafficking it has become the same scenario. One investigative organization blames the other for not doing a good job. America has something like 18 organizations similar to FBI and they all pass the buck to one another when bad things do manage to surface....

Brave whistleblowers in the child care system are harrassed by law and even lose their homes, and put into institutions under false names so family members cannot find them.  I listened to a former child service official's story  a while back - what they did to her in UK was inconceivable. 

In Ireland and England I have heard of investigative reporters ending up dead.  I cant remember all the names but I do know one thing - the system is rotten to the core and good people or children  no longer have guaranteed protection.  The system is corrupt and you can inadvertantly step on someones toes.  By ending up in the child care system, the child may face a worse ordeal.

 Epsteins madam (who trained the young girls) and the other names in the black book - none have been brought to justice. The FBI has all the tapes he used to blackmail high officials. After Epstein's  convenient death it all died down.  It seems the entire bunch were connected to CIA, MI 5 and Mossad .....he was an asset of these organizations.... and part of the MKUltra type experiments on children. 

Do any of you know about MKULTRA?  Secret experiments by the US government on children?  To see what abuse does to them ?  MKULTRA is just one of many such projects where research psychiatrists were part of the problem....MI5 /6 and CIA,are linked....... but that is another subject. 

Do not be misled.  This world system is no longer based on the older biblical values. It is not what we believe it to be any longer.  

I try to stay close to jehovah and stay out of the world as much as possible.  I do believe to be informed....so I can warn friends and walk wisely..... but I want nothing to do with the world's filth.  The individuals who bring dishonor on Jehovahs name - well the bible tells us about the outcome of those who live double lives.

The law is the law - unmerciful, not compassionate, especially if you are poor or uninfluential.. .  If you are rich....or influential.....other laws apply - one can get away with more than murder..... 

Last note:  the secret investigative  organizations have become  so powerful. They claim anything as 'priviledged information'.   Consequently,  pockets within CIA have turned rogue and protect each other. They hide behind the statutes which protect their information.  

Organizations such as' judicial watch'  have a hard time to get information out of them.   They have to sue by law to get information they are entitled to. Then after two years (the limit to receive requested information)  they take them to court and can only  get "redacted" information. 

The corruption in some of these organizations is high because it has allowed powerful enclaves to develop within the military industrial complex and the secret investigative organizations. These people are like mafia - a law unto themselves.

Like Rome, the rot from within has been USA's downfall.  USA will soon no longer be the power it has been in the past.... then the eighth government will have power for a short time.....(as the bible indicates)  and the king of the north will control the wealth.   Daniel 11 from verse 40. These new governments will claim that their digital surveillance systems will lessen crime but it will become a highly controlled environment where those with power have full say (total power) over the ordinary   people's lives.

No doubt, child trafficking will still go on but governments will know all about it. I read recently that a 9 month baby fetus is worth 40,000 dollars.  I have no doubt that this is the reason behind the new laws.  China has been doing this since it's one child policy..... picking up pregnant women just before giving birth to a second child, removing the baby and sterilizing the parent and then just throwing the mother out anywhere on the street.  Listened to an interview made in China in secret. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
12 hours ago, Anna said:

If anyone is interested in reading the actual transcript of the Supreme Court's decision, here is the link:

    Hello guest!

So you can decide whether Jehovah's Witnesses lied to the Montana court about confidentiality. Remarks and comments are welcome (at least welcomed by me 😀)

Supreme Court of Montana - Reversal, January 8 2020

I chose few paragraphs, and some accentuation.

The parties agree that elders are “clergy” under Montana law.

Relevant here, § 41-3-201(6)(c), MCA, provides: “A member of the clergy or a priest is not required to make a report under this section if the communication is required to be confidential by canon law, church doctrine, or established church practice.” ¶12 Jehovah’s Witnesses contend they are excepted from the general mandatory reporting statute pursuant to § 41-3-201(6)(c), MCA.

¶30 Jehovah’s Witnesses point out that imposing a narrow definition of confidentiality impermissibly could discriminate between different religious beliefs and practices, protecting confidentiality of reports made in a confession from a parishioner to priest, like the traditional Catholic practice, while offering no protection to a congregant’s disclosures to a committee of elders using a process like that followed by the Jehovah’s Witnesses. “It is the duty of courts, if possible, to construe statutes in a manner that avoids unconstitutional interpretation.” State v. Mathis, 2003 MT 112, ¶ 8, 315 Mont. 378, 68 P.3d 756 (citation omitted)

¶33 We hold accordingly that the undisputed material facts in the summary judgment record demonstrate as a matter of law that Jehovah’s Witnesses were not mandatory reporters under § 41-3-201, MCA, in this case because their church doctrine, canon, or practice required that clergy keep reports of child abuse confidential, thus entitling the Defendants to the exception of § 41-3-201(6)(c), MCA

We can reverse now something else: Did WT Society and all included in spreading "spiritual truths and doctrines" lied to general public and JW members by claiming how JW congregations have not clergy, priesthood class and how elders in congregations are not clergy, priesthood?

Share this post


Link to post
46 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

doctrines" lied to general public and JW members by claiming how JW congregations have not clergy, priesthood class and how elders in congregations are not clergy, priesthood?

By secular laws - by worldly laws - they can be classified as clergy.   By Jehovahs laws-  definitely not. 

Please start to understand that we live in the world - we cannot go out of the world.... so worldly laws apply to us when we go to court.   In court they will apply the law in this traditional way. 

Share this post


Link to post
On 1/13/2020 at 5:40 AM, 4Jah2me said:

Well then maybe you can both explain how two past members of the Governing Body were Homosexuals.

If people in the 1st century were homosexuals before learning the truth of God's Kingdom and Christ' sin atoning blood became anointed, what is the difference today.

The GB members are no different than any other witnesses, they just have been giving opportunity to direct the organization.They have not been blessed with an Apostleship and Outward Displays of Holy Spirit as some of them were.

Like us, and those in the 1st century, they repented and left ungodly practices behind and are reaching forward.They may have preached the message full time and been given responsibility one step at a time after many years. WHO IS THEIR JUDGE?

Share this post


Link to post
8 hours ago, Arauna said:

By secular laws - by worldly laws - they can be classified as clergy.   By Jehovahs laws-  definitely not. 

Please start to understand that we live in the world - we cannot go out of the world.... so worldly laws apply to us when we go to court.   In court they will apply the law in this traditional way. 

Very good response from long term JW member. And very dissonante response!! 

From now on, because JW members obey secular laws (and because of agreements that WT Society and Courts made) in everything that not oppose to God's law, have to consider how to accept new terminology and to explain in publications and in field service when people ask about hierarchy inside Organization. 

It will be very interesting to see what would be reaction of new interested persons when congregants tell them, how JW Church elders are clergy only in Court cases against them, but in everyday life all are brothers. :))

WT Society giving few claims, few interpretations  about one standard: God is above all

1) obey God's commandments

2) obey secular law

3) obey God's commandments above secular law

4) obey secular law in everything that not contradict and opposing to God's commandments

5) obey Secular authority and God's authority when they work together and making compromise

I am very interested to see how and when  this "new clarification" (in your's or some other formulation) will see daylight in WT publications and on JW meetings. :))

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
3 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

they just have been giving opportunity to direct the organization

How came to that, that they just found themselves to be in this opportunity?

This formulation say how they had no "qualifications", but JUST had been GIVING opportunity to direct.

Who gave them (GB) this opportunity from 1971 on ? WT Society Administration? Or God? Or mutual effort of human and spirit (similar to what was described in Acts, ..."we and holy spirit decided to ....") ?    

Share this post


Link to post
14 hours ago, Witness said:

For all of you dissecting this case, an opinion from a retired justice of the Montana Supreme Court

"Religion does not give sexual predators a pass"

    Hello guest!

 

Indeed. I agree with his opinion in that the law needs to be changed.

Page 15 of the Supreme Court's decision says this: "This Court’s task is to interpret what is contained in the reporting statute as written by the Legislature. We do not opine whether that body could have made a different policy choice that would afford greater protection to child victims. The Legislature is the appropriate body to entertain such policy arguments.

 

10 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

  Did WT Society and all included in spreading "spiritual truths and doctrines" lied to general public and JW members by claiming how JW congregations have not clergy, priesthood class and how elders in congregations are not clergy, priesthood?

Its simple. From a worldly point of view the elders are clergy. From the Christian congregation's point of view, the worldly definition of clergy does apply to the elders. However, outside of a worldly situation (meaning a worldly situation like a court setting) a member of the Christian congregation will not view the elders as clergy, because they are not applying the worldly point of view.  No deceit or lying there.

Share this post


Link to post
22 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

and dictators et al. 

I wish people knew what a dictator is.  When they live under one they will not use the word so freely. People call jehovah a dictator as well because he dares to tell them what is right and wrong!

Share this post


Link to post
31 minutes ago, Anna said:

Its simple. From a worldly point of view the elders are clergy. From the Christian congregation's point of view, the worldly definition of clergy does apply to the elders. However, outside of a worldly situation (meaning a worldly situation like a court setting) a member of the Christian congregation will not view the elders as clergy, because they are not applying the worldly point of view.  No deceit or lying there.

From a worldly point of view the elders are clergy. From the Christian congregation's point of view, the worldly definition of clergy does apply to the elders.

Than, result is the same: JW elders are clergy, priesthood.

However, outside of a worldly situation (meaning a worldly situation like a court setting) a member of the Christian congregation will not view the elders as clergy, because they are not applying the worldly point of view.

Is it doing bad to children (or CSA)?:

-worldly situation or

-situation inside JW congregation or

-worldly situation inside JW situation who operate inside worldly system situation?  

Where, to Whom Courts belong? To worldly situation only? To satan, because he is god of this World?

Courts belongs in Bible situation. They are God's Servants, and not devil's Servants (your Bible said so, your interpretation of Romans said so too). Bible situation says how all people (Christian congregants too)  belong to Secular Authorities who making decisions who is who. In Montana situation JW elders prayed, asked Court to give them distinctive title - clergy, priesthood. Obviously they asked Court to give them something that God "failed" to give it to them.  :)))

 

Share this post


Link to post

This one will be easy to win in the appellate court. I wish people would stop trying to persuade others how the watchtower should conduct their legal affairs by not first learning the laws of the land, and how those laws can be applied, biblically. It seems embattled women should learn this especially. A law student could argue a simple mistake the Montana Supreme court made. The annotated of the code cited:

  41-3-201. Reports. (1) When the professionals and officials listed in subsection (2) know or have reasonable cause to suspect, as a result of information they receive in their professional or official capacity, that a child is abused or neglected by anyone regardless of whether the person suspected of causing the abuse or neglect is a parent or other person responsible for the child's welfare, they shall report the matter promptly to the department of public health and human services.
     (2) Professionals and officials required to report are:

----------------------------------

Was “revised” in 2015. Therefore, Montana Supreme Court cannot receive an argument in their docket that was not grandfathered in. Another revision was made just last year to include a broader spectrum of services and institutions.

Montana Tile 41 while being around for a long time, subsection 3-201 annotated, has not. The court needed to convene under the premises of:

41-3-422 Abuse and neglect petitions -- burden of proof

“Supreme Court” mandatory reporting statute.

Therefore, certain things still apply to the Montana laws.

Montana Code Annotated 2019

TITLE 26. EVIDENCE

CHAPTER 1. STATUTORY PROVISIONS ON EVIDENCE

Part 8. Privileges

Confessions Made To Member of Clergy

26-1-804.Confessions made to member of clergy. A member of the clergy or priest may not, without the consent of the person making the confession, be examined as to any confession made to the individual in the individual's professional character in the course of discipline enjoined by the church to which the individual belongs.

Montana Code Annotated 2019

TITLE 26. EVIDENCE

CHAPTER 1. STATUTORY PROVISIONS ON EVIDENCE

Part 8. Privileges

Policy to Protect Confidentiality in Certain Relations

26-1-801.  Policy to protect confidentiality in certain relations. There are particular relations in which it is the policy of the law to encourage confidence and to preserve it inviolate; therefore, a person cannot be examined as a witness in the cases enumerated in this part.

History: En. Secs. 373-377, pp. 210, 211, L. 1867; re-en. Secs. 447-451, p. 125, Cod. Stat. 1871; en. Secs. 629, 630, pp. 203, 204, L. 1877; re-en. Secs. 629, 630, 1st Div. Rev. Stat. 1879; re-en. Secs. 650, 651, 1st Div. Comp. Stat. 1887; re-en. Sec. 3163, C. Civ. Proc. 1895; re-en. Sec. 7892, Rev. C. 1907; re-en. Sec. 10536, R.C.M. 1921; amd. Sec. 1, Ch. 83, L. 1925; amd. Sec. 1, Ch. 130, L. 1931; re-en. Sec. 10536, R.C.M. 1935; amd. Sec. 1, Ch. 61, L. 1971; amd. Sec. 1, Ch. 318, L. 1973; amd. Sec. 15, Ch. 543, L. 1975; amd. Sec. 2, Ch. 225, L. 1977; R.C.M. 1947, 93-701-4(part).

This is just an example, how far negativeness is willing to travel from both sides of the spectrum. Sorry “John Butler” aka 4jah2me, you can down vote this post.

The only ones with competence to argue man's laws using scripture are the Watchtower Counsel.

Share this post


Link to post
54 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

From the Christian congregation's point of view, the worldly definition of clergy does apply to the elders.

That is your personal opinion..... the bible gives us instructions on what the role of elders are and we try to follow these instructions.

Share this post


Link to post
2 minutes ago, Arauna said:

That is your personal opinion..... the bible gives us instructions on what the role of elders are and we try to follow these instructions.

No problem, don't worry, I understand you. We just comment Montana situation :))

Share this post


Link to post
13 minutes ago, Arauna said:
1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

From the Christian congregation's point of view, the worldly definition of clergy does apply to the elders.

That is your personal opinion.

Well no, that is not my personal opinion. That is the opinion of the Christian Congregation. How else could they claim clergy privilege unless they applied the worldly definition (legal definition) to the elders?

Share this post


Link to post

I still repeat that JWs break the law of the land when it suits them, but obey the law of the land when its convenient to them. 

Suit yourselves though. It's so clear to see that the GB, their lawyers, and most JWs have no love, nor even any feelings for Victims of Child Sexual Abuse within JW Org. The Victims are just Collateral Damage, pushed aside as being inconvenient....  

So your GB and it's Org saved themselves some money. Wow. But what is much more important is, the feelings of God and Christ on these matters.  I'm sure that God, Christ and the scriptures would be on the side of the Victims here. But that of course does not matter to your GB, sitting high in their new home. 

Share this post


Link to post
7 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

JWs break the law of the land when it suits them

There is no way you can "suit yourself" in a secular  court of law - you fight to win....... to expect otherwise is unjust.  If you lose while innocent and obeying God (like brothers in Russia) one serves the penalty and then try to appeal within the secular law system they have created.

4jah2me, if your sense of justice is still outraged :  I understand..but do not forget, even if a guilty person gets away with something like murder, rape, etc. Jehovah sees everything and he will compensate in future when His system arrives - in the end there will be true justice for all.

Do you believe that God really exists and there is a future where he will compensate?   .... The 1000 years is called a day of judgment is it not?  This world is not all there is....

The GB will be judged as individuals and how they executed their responsibilities given to them. If you really believe God exists - then rest assured no-one will get away with something serious...  The elders too.  God is not partial. 

I have seen elders handle their responsibilities in good way.... and bad.  If their brand of justice is flawed, I have seen elders fall out or be removed...  but jehovah is a God of mercy...... he always gives people time to change or improve..........or repent....... no matter what their sin was.

In a secular court - we accept judgment - even if a mistake was made. We accept that human judgment is not perfect and then try to fight the verdict through legal channels. Many people on death row have been innocent.

In the congregation people's spiritual lives are at stake.... I can speak from experience..... I come across here as hard ... but I have been in truth since I was 21 - the first in my family.  The knocks I got from imperfect brothers and sisters in this time  did affect me....especially when I was young, stupid and fragile. .. but in the end it strengthened me and gave me "endurance". 

I stuck to jehovah (made Him my joy) and cultivated humility. I always tried to understand imperfection and only trust jehovah and stick to him..... this helped me to endure and grow in understanding.

This it is the crux of the matter...... trust that jehovah is the great compensator.  He is the only and absolute provider of true justice. He is righteous.

I read a lot of news .... when I read of the growing injustices against Christian's in north Africa...... the murders, rapes etc.  I just want to literally cry...... in this world run by satan behind the scenes, there is no true justice. 

JUSTICE really depends what kind of government is in power ..... and how corrupt it is or not.    We all will learn this soon when governments turn on religion.... we will see how just governments really are.  The bible does not say for nothing that those who accept Jesus' randsom will be persecuted before Armageddon. 

The law is usually the instrument by which they persecute people when the society is reasonably civil.  When society is in chaos, you are just executed or kangaroo court prevails.

Be glad you are living in a first world country - although things are deteriorating fast.  I cry for the young children being raped in Africa ...... all the time.... it is endemic....  law and order is only for those in power..... not the victims.

Jehovah loves the lowly, the victims..... and they do get a measure of comfort from Him in this world....... the full healing for them will only come in the new system.. ...but they must draw close to jehovah now to get this comfort.  Some do not appreciate this offer from jehovah..... and throw the opportunities away.

 

Share this post


Link to post
51 minutes ago, Arauna said:

The 1000 years is called a day of judgment is it not? 

Out of topic, but just for fun. Revelation is very symbolic book. 1000 years can be also 24 human hours and can be millions of human years too. 

52 minutes ago, Arauna said:

In a secular court - we accept judgment - even if a mistake was made. We accept that human judgment is not perfect and then try to fight the verdict through legal channels.

 

53 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Jehovah sees everything and he will compensate in future when His system arrives - in the end there will be true justice for all.

This two quote contradict itself. Question is: Why WT Lawyers not waiting for God's Justice ... in the future?

10 hours ago, Arauna said:

That is your personal opinion..... the bible gives us instructions on what the role of elders are and we try to follow these instructions.

From the Christian congregation's point of view, the worldly definition of clergy does apply to the elders.

This is what  @Anna said, not me. :))

Share this post


Link to post
13 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Out of topic, but just for fun.

Says you!   I was comparing current worldly system and Jehovahs true justice system  in future.  

15 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

quote contradict itself.

No - I spoke of current secular system we all live under and future justice of God. 

I do not know if you are deliberately obtuse or not..... but I leave it at that.....

19 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

From the Christian congregation's point of view, the worldly definition of clergy does apply to the elders.

Yes! In a WORDLY court of law!   ..... in the secular world we live in..... 

 

Share this post


Link to post
15 hours ago, Anna said:

How else could they claim clergy privilege unless they applied the worldly definition (legal definition) to the elders?

It may seem like a double standard but it is not.  In our congregations we do not call our elders "father"  leader or such other titles /designations the clergy have traditionally called themselves.... we do not..... BUT we do confide in the elders and in this they have a similar FUNCTion regarding confessions - which the law is about.  So by their function, not title, they qualify as clergy under secular law.

Anna - this is not a comment on your comment. Just a general thought.

Share this post


Link to post
20 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

This formulation say how they had no "qualifications", but JUST had been GIVING opportunity to direct

This formulation is the same as most businesses on Earth. You start at the bottom and work your way up, with the difference being they are volunteers. The GB members all gained spiritual and mental experience in the many years they were full time publishers alone with no other responsibilities. They were trained by older men, the older men suggest to a body of older men that they be considered to help a congregation or branch office while the continue their volunteer service as door to door ministers.

You don't start in the mail office one week then become president the next. The structure of Jehovah's Witnesses leadership weeds out those who have no desire to serve God. Many pioneers have spent 120 hours a month going door to door with the magazines,this is the expressed will of God preaching the Good News of God's Kingdom in all the Earth. They keep records before God who and where they spoke with someone, that they may reach every door, every person.

Have you ever spent 120 hours a month as a volunteer, spending your own money for all expenses? Previously they paid for the literature they lovingly gave to those who would read them. The GB are lowly servants of Jehovah. They respect that Jesus is the true head of the congregation. Having a body lead the organization spiritually is much better than having one man with unpredictability.

If the Apostles Paul and Peter were members, there would be complainers inside and out of the organization.The world is full of nonconstructive complainers.What will be their outcome? We leave that to the one who peers into such conversations from the heavens!

The GB are lowly men who are humble before God, searching the Bible for truth and direction, no different than a father who tries to care for his families spiritual needs.  

Share this post


Link to post
31 minutes ago, the Sower of Seed said:

The GB are lowly men who are humble before God, searching the Bible for truth and direction, no different than a father who tries to care for his families spiritual needs.  

Sometimes I point out that most have spent decades serving in areas and in ways more humble than of those whom they will later lead. How different from the typical business or political leader, most of whom were born into privilege 

Share this post


Link to post
8 hours ago, Arauna said:
20 hours ago, Anna said:

How else could they claim clergy privilege unless they applied the worldly definition (legal definition) to the elders?

It may seem like a double standard but it is not.  In our congregations we do not call our elders "father"  leader or such other titles /designations the clergy have traditionally called themselves.... we do not..... BUT we do confide in the elders and in this they have a similar FUNCTion regarding confessions - which the law is about.  So by their function, not title, they qualify as clergy under secular law.

Anna - this is not a comment on your comment. Just a general thought.

Yes, I agree. I think we may have got our lines crossed earlier. What I was trying to say before is that when it comes to secularism, we accept the designation "clergy" for our elders, because that is how the world sees the elders. But inside the congregation we do not view elders in that same way, in the same way as the world. (I don't know if I have explained what I meant it any better, but you explained it already). Sorry for the confusion.

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

This formulation is the same as most businesses on Earth. You start at the bottom and work your way up,

Thanks for respond.

What you described is concised also in wording you offer: "is the same as most businesses on Earth".

Some examples from Bible give us another way how some individuals going to gain responsible positions.

Young David was walking with sheeps and other domestic animals. Living simple life with no preparation for ruling over nation Israel as a King. But his youth had some need to prove himself and to his brothers and father, as mature and strong and brave. In one moment Samuel anointed David to be KIng. Just in a second. Nothing about going from bottom and then work his way up. :)))))

Saul of Tarsus have some period about learning, but he didn't learned how to be apostle and member of Jerusalem GB. If GB in Jerusalem existed at all??!!  He was chosen by Jesus as 11 before him. :)))

Please, who had chosen GB in 1971? God? Jesus? Someone?

24 minutes ago, Anna said:

What I was trying to say before is that when it comes to secularism, we accept the designation "clergy" for our elders,

Dear Anna. 

Majority of  JW  members don't know nothing about such "designation" for their congregational elders. In fact i believe how such knowledge will stumble many of your people. Few of you who participate here and read Court documents knowing these things. Your bro/sis living in blessed ignorance about this.

It would be proper to say how few of you, few JW people here, "accepting" such terminology, but only for pro et contra conversations we making here. :)) Yours inner feelings for justice and ethic and truth NOT want, NOT wish, CAN'T accept this mixing of "holy things" and "secular (false religion) things" about leveling/equalization JW elders with Catholic clergy. But you are forced to do this because of loyalty to WTJWorg and "argumentation". 

Share this post


Link to post
41 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Majority of  JW  members don't know nothing about such "designation" for their congregational elders

Everybody knows it. It’s nothing more than common sense. Regardless of what elders are called, they come closest to fitting the role lawmakers have in mind for ‘clergy.’

Share this post


Link to post
4 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Everybody knows it. It’s nothing more than common sense. Regardless of what elders are called, they come closest to fitting the role lawmakers have in mind for ‘clergy.’

Huh Tom!

Wife went to evening cong. meeting now. How about to asking her about this what all JW's know when she comes back? :)))

Oh ,no i can't expect she would tell me anything, because she are not allowed to talk with me about congregational, spiritual things. Ohh, what a pity!!

Share this post


Link to post

What would be wrong, then, with just admitting that elders also come closest to fitting the role that nearly everyone, including most JWs, have in mind for clergy? It's a little bit like the word rapture, where many people have a wrong connotation of what all is implied with the word, so that we don't use it specifically for the Greek word "harpazo." But we still, according to the latest WT on the subject, believe in the "rapture" part of the word "rapture." To most people, clergy, refers to those who teach and take the lead in religious services, including those who "shepherd" the flock, take confessions, etc. Nothing to see here as far as I'm concerned.

This doesn't mean, of course, that we shouldn't also distinguish our use of terms from wrong connotations that these terms imply to others.

Share this post


Link to post
1 minute ago, JW Insider said:

What would be wrong, then, with just admitting that elders also come closest to fitting the role that nearly everyone, including most JWs, have in mind for clergy? It's a little bit like the word rapture, where many people have a wrong connotation of what all is implied with the word, so that we don't use it specifically for the Greek word "harpazo." But we still, according to the latest WT on the subject, believe in the "rapture" part of the word "rapture." To most people, clergy, refers to those who teach and take the lead in religious services, including those who "shepherd" the flock, take confessions, etc. Nothing to see here as far as I'm concerned.

This doesn't mean, of course, that we shouldn't also distinguish our use of terms from wrong connotations that these terms imply to others.

Some religious people love their clergy. Some not so much.

Some non-religious people have same feelings.

JW people not loving any clergy but only own clergy.

Problem will be solved if WT publication start to teaching own members about "connotations".... wrong one and positive one. :)))

Share this post


Link to post

I can think of another word we don't use, but it is used regularly by those who are not JW, and that is the word church. In English speaking countries (especially the USA and Britain) our meeting places are called churches, and our organization is church. We don't argue with non JWs, we accept their terminology, and we understand it. (Sometimes we will explain to them our meeting places are called Kingdom Halls).

So it is the same with "clergy" and "rapture". As JWI implies, really, it is a non argument. It's just a case of semantics.

 

Share this post


Link to post
7 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

would be wrong, then, with just admitting that elders also come closest to fitting the role that nearly

You seem to not ever have belonged to a church.  I went to catholic, protestant and evangelical churches in my childhood. My grandmother and mother was catholic, father protestant and I attended church with neighbours at evangelical. 

There is no way one can compare our elders with the hierarchy of the catholic church, the pomp and ceremony, the ritual, and most of all the ' costumes' and the liturgy.... as well as all the titles. One pays money for most services rendered.

In evangelical the priest often sang solo and then presided  over the "receiving of the holy spirit"...the speaking of tongues., healing etc.  I saw people falling over with "spirit"  as a youngster and after a few times did not ever go back. I loved the singing though. Choir singing and pageants, game nights etc at church.

Protestant - the Dutch reformed church is very stoic with a minister which is very stoic.  The church liturgy also has words that are repeated every week with the same minister leading the church members  in the service. While catholic confessions are weekly, in the protestant church the minister is there as a confidant and gives spiritual advice only when requested. He offers classes for catechism.

This the only common denominator JWs  have with all these churches:  the aspect of confidentiality  and advice albeit not in the same format. We cannot call JWs clergy except when referring to a law-  which refers to this single service when offered by a religious org.

Share this post


Link to post
25 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Problem will be solved if WT publication start to teaching own members about "connotations".... wrong one and positive one. :)))

This has already been done:

Awake, August 2009

Should There Be a Clergy-Laity Distinction?

Most Reverend, Right Reverend, Father, Most Holy Father, Rabbi, His Eminence, His Excellency, His Holiness, His All-Holiness—these are some of the titles that distinguish the clergy of various religions from the laity. The separation of the clergy from the laity is common to many religions, but is the arrangement from God, or is it a human tradition? More important, does it have God’s approval?

“IN THE New Testament and during the early apostolic times there is no mention of clergy or laity,” wrote professor of theology Cletus Wessels. The Encyclopedia of Christianity states: “There gradually arose a differentiation into clergy as the officeholders and the laity as the rest . . . ‘Ordinary’ church members now came to be seen as an unqualified mass.” That differentiation became prominent during the third century C.E.—more than two hundred years after Jesus Christ!

If, then, the clergy-laity distinction is not based on the model set by Jesus’ apostles and other early Christians, does that make it wrong? According to the Bible, yes. Consider why.

“All You Are Brothers”

God’s Word tells us that all Christians serve as God’s ministers and that none is above or beneath the other. (

    Hello guest!
) “There was a very positive insistence on the absence of class” among early Christians, says religion writer Alexandre Faivre. That “absence of class” harmonizes with Jesus’ words to his followers: “All you are brothers.”—
    Hello guest!
.

Spiritually older men did, of course, serve as overseers, which included being shepherds and teachers. (

    Hello guest!
) However, these men were not paid clerics. For the most part, they were ordinary working men—husbands and fathers. Moreover, they qualified to serve as overseers, not by attending religious seminaries, but by being diligent students of God’s Word and by cultivating the spiritual qualities required by God. These qualities include being “moderate in habits, sound in mind, orderly, hospitable, qualified to teach, . . . reasonable, not belligerent, not a lover of money, a man presiding over his own household in a fine manner.”—
    Hello guest!
.

    Hello guest!

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
12 minutes ago, Anna said:

semantics.

Aspects of meaning or semantics. 

JW people, or better to say, JW leaders, with time, from past, gave specific meaning to word "clergy". And thus created new culture inside own church. Inside JW circle word "clergy" has bad connotation. Because, as word "Christendom" too, it is always about, those other people, those other churches, those other religions.

Merriam Webster explain word clergy:  a group ordained to perform pastoral or 

    Hello guest!
 functions in a Christian church

Share this post


Link to post
1 minute ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Because, as word "Christendom"

Christen-dom.  These people have ruled in the past  (the dom stands for 'domain' . They have gone to war - think of crusades, inquisition, Cromwell's puritan civil war, ...too many to mention. This is why the word has a bad connotation.

Share this post


Link to post
8 minutes ago, Anna said:

The separation of the clergy from the laity is common to many religions, but is the arrangement from God, or is it a human tradition? More important, does it have God’s approval?

 

8 minutes ago, Anna said:

“All You Are Brothers”

Perhaps some day WT Society will stop using nomenclature as, GB member, Helper, CO, Elder, MS, Pioneer etc. because one word covers all , Brother (and Sister too :)))))

Article you used is going further, speaking about distinction. We are not starting with this subject but with terminology. I suggest we stop on terminology and not talking about inside classes and distinction. Ok?

 

2 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Christen-dom.  These people have ruled in the past  (the dom stands for 'domain' . They have gone to war - think of crusades, inquisition, Cromwell's puritan civil war, ...too many to mention. This is why the word has a bad connotation.

Israel Priesthood also supported bad things. Why i am not surprised how same happened to Christen-dom.

Share this post


Link to post
8 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Perhaps some day WT Society will stop using nomenclature as, GB member, Helper, CO, Elder, MS, Pioneer etc. because one word covers all , Brother (and Sister too :)))))

Well yes, we don't say elder "so and so" or pioneer "so and so". We say brother or sister "so and so" :)

We don't use those words as titles. Only as descriptions of the tasks the brother or sister does.

Here is that article in Croatian

    Hello guest!

 

Share this post


Link to post
6 minutes ago, Arauna said:

You seem to not ever have belonged to a church.  I went to catholic, protestant and evangelical churches in my childhood.

True, but I've watched one on TV. (Not really) My wife was born and raised Catholic, and had just tried Seventh Day Adventist, Church of God and Jehovah's Witnesses in the 5 years between leaving the Catholic church and getting baptized. My relatives on my father's side are Bible Students and Witnesses for as far back as this was possible, but they also married into families that had been Methodists, Lutheran, etc. I've seen plenty of churchiness on documentaries of various churches.

11 minutes ago, Arauna said:

There is no way one can compare our elders with the hierarchy of the catholic church, the pomp and ceremony, the ritual, and most of all the ' costumes' and the liturgy.... as well as all the titles. One pays money for most services rendered.

Of course you can compare them. You just have to watch for similarities to compare rather than letting the differences get in the way. You are right that you need to strip away the "pomp and ceremony" but it is pretty easy to match up the altar boys with the microphone carriers, deacons with the more mature ministerial servants, the priests and pastors with the elders, the bishops with the COBE, cardinals with the circuit overseers, the Pope and college of cardinals with the Governing Body, etc. There are dozens of other similarities, along with serious and important differences.

 

Even the article that Anna offered, where one of the important distinctions is that clergy are paid falls away when we think about how our circuit overseers (and formerly district overseers) have always been paid, and how the Governing Body and their helpers and other support services are paid from the collection of our contributions. We actually have a former Bethel elder who was "retired" from Bethel to serve in our congregation, and he is "paid" by being allowed to live in a room with his wife that is part of the KH, like a rectory.

I was speaking of what people generally believe about the range of possibilities that "clergy" can mean -- not focusing on the very things that we have used to distinguish ourselves from the worst examples of clergy. The connotation of "clergy" to a Witness is admittedly skewed by our focus on the differences. But the actual differences in the meaning of the word are not so problematic. Look at the definition of clergy that shows up on a Google search:

cler·gy /ˈklərjē/
  • the body of all people ordained for religious duties, especially in the Christian Church.
  • "all marriages were to be solemnized by the clergy"
33 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

JW people, or better to say, JW leaders, with time, from past, gave specific meaning to word "clergy".

Whoops! After coming back to my computer and responding to Arauna, I just notice that I said the same thing as Srecko. Srecko managed to make the same point in 1/10th the number of wor