Did Jehovah’s Witnesses Lie to the Montana Court About Confidentiality?

[Anna]

47 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

It gives the impression that it's rare that a minister would ever get in trouble for revealing a confidentiality, but that they would never get in trouble for breaching the confidentiality of child abuse by letting the authorities know.

Yes, I saw that too. (I just wanted to highlight the bit about what seems to be the two "types" of confidentiality"). 

You know my feelings on this anyway,  that I don't see the purpose of applying clergy privilege to the elders in the first place. I have a feeling though that this will become less of an issue, and hopefully will be just a formality, like "let's see what the law says in our state, but then do what our conscience tell us is the right thing to do to protect our children". 

 

[JW Insider]

2 minutes ago, Anna said:

I have a feeling though that this will become less of an issue, and hopefully will be just a formality, like "let's see what the law says in our state, but then do what our conscience tell us is the right thing to do to protect our children".

I agree that this seems to be the goal of the updated policy. I'm happy for that. This is hopefully just an artifact of obsolete procedures.

[Witness]

THE ZALKIN LAW FIRM, P.C.  (facebook)

We have received inquiries and concerns about a Montana Supreme Court's decision to reverse a $35 Million judgment against the Jehovah's Witnesses. What people should know is that this opinion is limited to the facts of that case and to that court's interpretation of the law of Montana and does not establish precedent in other jurisdictions. We know the lawyers who represent the victim in that case and in our opinion they did a fine job. Unfortunately, based on our reading of the Montana Supreme Court's opinion, the Court was mislead by testimony offered by the JWs in house expert in their child abuse policies and practices. The case hinged on whether the way in which the JWs handle reports of child sexual abuse falls within an exception to Montana's clergy mandated reporting law. Relying heavily on the testimony of Dave Chappel from the Service Department, the Montana Supreme Court concluded that the policies and practices of the JWs is to keep such information confidential, even if it is shared between elders of the congregation and elders of the Service Department, and even if elders are free to disclose that information to law enforcement should they decide to do so, thereby entitling the JWs to the confidentiality exception to the obligation of clergy to report suspicions of child sexual abuse. In essence, the Court's conclusion is that where a religious organization says it is required to keep such information confidential as a tenant of its religion, despite evidence to the contrary, the court is going to accept what it says as controlling.

The JWs also argue that civil courts should not second guess how they deal with reports of child sexual abuse because doing so violates the JWs 1st Amendment right to the free exercise of its religion. That argument has failed in dozens of cases. The U.S. Supreme Court has recognized that civil courts can enforce neutral laws that are intended to apply to everyone equally. Laws that protect children from child abusers are neutral and not targeted to any one religion.

Over the course of the past decade of litigating cases against the JWs we have obtained numerous court opinions that have found the opposite of what the Montana Supreme Court determined to be the case.

We feel very badly for the victim in this case. What this case shows very clearly, is that the JWs continue to place secrecy and protection of known child molesters above the safety of children. Shame on them.

[Arauna]

4 hours ago, Anna said:

Yes, I saw that too. (I just wanted to highlight the bit about what seems to be the two "types" of confidentiality"). 

If the law does not want confusion - they must fix the law.  The problem has always been the law .... since the 1980s.  It was never clear cut and every state has different statutes..... and interpretations.

I am sure they (JWs) would like to give the victim compensation.... but the law is law.  If they give the victim 1 million for example - she can go ahead and claim the absorbitant amount of 35 million anyway. Under human law one cannot feel compassion....... you get severely punished for it.

Only under Jehovahs law compassion works. Human law is flawed. 

Did you see my shared link above? A women is suing the mormon clergy for breaking confidentiality....... Depending on the precedent it may set.... we may see changes in future on the interpretation of this law.

[JW Insider]

38 minutes ago, Arauna said:

I am sure they (JWs) would like to give the victim compensation.... but the law is law.

You should speak with some of the Watchtower attorneys. I don't think you will ever again claim that they would like to give the victim compensation.

[Arauna]

6 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

don't think you will ever again claim that they would like to give the victim compensation.

As I just said - law is law....... no place for compassion. It carrys the sword.... and uses only the sword - nothing else.  You can only fight for defence within the boundaries the law allows you...... or go under. 

Rome was vicious, but do not be misled - our times are more vicious and about to become much more so. 

[Srecko Sostar]

6 hours ago, JW Insider said:

But we still seem to be asking for these rules to be invoked to protect the organization.

.... to protect financial assets, if  i may say.

Because there is no more need to protect Organization in sense of dignity and "to not drag God's name through the mud". CSA problem is strong in so many Institutions, religious and non-religious.

In that,  from secular point of view, JW organization is like every other organization. And they (world) have no need to pay more attention to WTJWorg than to every other religion or institution of any sort.

What problem is : JW members and Management are worried about how worldly/secular people will look at them and what they will think about them - and that is, in JW' minds as: Only True Religion and God's Earthly Organization.

In this aspect , from JW point of view,  JW leaders found it very important to "protect organization" as the most holy in the world. Image of Organization have to be without spot, mainly in the view of members, who have to bring themselves into thinking how World have to see WTJWorg as only true and clean organization, in one hand, and because of that, this same World have to want to destroy and persecute WTJWorg, in second hand.

One part of JW mind need some sort of "recognition"  made by satan' World, and other part of JW mind in the same time wish to be "persecuted" in some form, as proof that they are and belong to only true religion. 

It comes to the point where self-realization (individual and as organization) about the correctness of one's own path is not enough. A dose of martyrdom is required. But again, not so high a dose as to cause harm in the financial stability of the Corporation. The best option, for Corporation, would be some sort of problems and persecution toward members, without reaching too much for money of  organization, without doing financial harm to the corporation. 

[Anna]

9 hours ago, Witness said:

t, the Montana Supreme Court concluded that the policies and practices of the JWs is to keep such information confidential, even if it is shared between elders of the congregation and elders of the Service Department, and even if elders are free to disclose that information to law enforcement should they decide to do so,

This shows clearly that the court was NOT mislead.

(Saying it was mislead is another one of Zalkin's loaded words to make JWs appear dishonest and bent on protecting pedophiles. As a result we see headlines such as "JWs lied in court". )

6 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

What problem is : JW members and Management are worried about how worldly/secular people will look at them and what they will think about them - and that is, in JW' minds as: Only True Religion and God's Earthly Organization.

Yes, I agree with that. I have seen it practiced (in other areas, not CSA). The Montana case is from what happened about 10 years ago. Hopefully now, with the new guidelines, and especially the WT study, all of JWs will no longer view this as bringing shame on the organization if they report, but they will see it is the perpetrator who is the one that is bringing the shame. Now it is in proper perspective. 

[Anna]

9 hours ago, Arauna said:

14 hours ago, Anna said:

 

If the law does not want confusion - they must fix the law.  The problem has always been the law .... since the 1980s.  It was never clear cut and every state has different statutes..... and interpretations.

I agree. Also I agree with most of what you said @TrueTomHarley in your post, but it seems to me, the law is not about "you must NOT disclose clergy confidentiality", but it is about "you don't have to disclose clergy confidentiality". It was the clergy who said you must NOT. This is because it was against the law of the church, and a cleric would lose his job if he broke that church law. As you know, JWs are not under that kind of a law, so it seems to me that it has always been an option for them whether to claim clergy privilege or not. 

11 hours ago, Witness said:

the Court's conclusion is that where a religious organization says it is required to keep such information confidential as a tenant of its religion, despite evidence to the contrary,

I did not see any evidence to the contrary. I read the court transcript. Again, Zalkin is making a misleading statement. 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

But if the GB / Bethel / Circuit Overseers / Elders et al, are allowed to tell half the Org and still pretend it is confidential then that is the biggest immoral / dishonest / unloving / merciless thing ever.  It is a loophole of the worst kind.  

The case may be ten years old, but that does not make it any less important in God's / Christ's opinion surely. Surely THEY would want justice and mercy done ? 

As JTR (I think it was ) said, the W/t / JW Org is run by the accountants and lawyers .

It is not God's Organisation because it proves to be man's. 

@Srecko Sostar  The best option, for Corporation, would be some sort of problems and persecution toward members, without reaching too much for money of  organization, without doing financial harm to the corporation. 

Sadly there is much persecution in Russia. There may be persecution elsewhere but I'm not aware of it. In Russia though it has been financial as well as physical. 

But it annoys me when JWs pretend that the CSA problems are part of persecution, because in truth they are caused by the dishonesty in the Org itself. 

In my opinion, whatever is printed in the W/t or in the Shepherding the Flock book, nothing has changed. It will still be hidden, and victims will still be shunned and called liars. JWs will still believe the Elders above the victims. Contacting Bethel / Head Office etc, where those brothers do not really know the people involved / the Elders involved / or the true situation, but can only go by their book of rules, will not bring about justice and mercy that God and Christ require.

[Witness]

24 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

As JTR (I think it was ) said, the W/t / JW Org is run by the accountants and lawyers .

Haven't you heard from the video Srecko posted under "1914"?  God's Kingdom is ruling!  Apparently he has chosen these lawyers and accountants to fight the fine fight!  The funny thing is, this "Jehovah" is not powerful enough to keep his members out of prison in countries that fight against him.  He's not powerful enough to win all the court cases that arise against his Kingdom rule.   He's not powerful enough to "hold down the fort", but he is an expert at building them.    

[Witness]

Just the fact that child abuse exists in an organization that declares it is inspired by Holy Spirit – “spirit-directed” -  is evil. (Rev 13:15)  For any JW leaders and members as well, who believe this outcome as beneficial - "good" -  toward upholding the governmental procedures of “God’s organization”,  is also evil. 

Woe to those who call evil good
and good evil,
who substitute darkness for light
and light for darkness,
who substitute bitter for sweet
and sweet for bitter.
21 Woe to those who are wise in their own opinion
and clever in their own sight.
22 Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine,
who are fearless at mixing beer,
23 who acquit the guilty for a bribe
and deprive the innocent of justice.

24 Therefore, as a tongue of fire consumes straw
and as dry grass shrivels in the flame,
so their roots will become like something rotten
and their blossoms will blow away like dust,
for they have rejected
the instruction of the Lord of Hosts,
and they have despised
the word of the Holy One of Israel.  Isa 5:20-24