Did Jehovah’s Witnesses Lie to the Montana Court About Confidentiality?

[Arauna]

3 hours ago, Anna said:

but it is about "you don't have to disclose

If I get a lawyer to defend me on a murder case and the government has access to all my discussions with my lawyer - they can maybe find me guilty on something I said to my lawyer even if I did not do it.

The prosecutor is supposed to do his work and build the case against me with hard evidence and my lawyer is supposed to defend me - even if He does not like me.  This is the secular justice of this world. Flawed - I agree - not perfect. 

Same with clergy.  If I confess something to the clergy - my elder or spiritual mentor, the law can still take me to court and build a good case against me - do due diligence and  find me guilty..... but they must respect the fact that I need advice for my soul. It is unfair/unjust  to use my spiritual advisor to testify against me - be it verbally or written. 

We are speaking secular law now.  There is a plea for compassion once you are found guilty - not before that..... the law must work hard to find you guilty because the premise is you are innocent till proven guilty. This is not Jehovahs law but the law of the government who has the sword.

Once the case is in the hand of the law -  it must proceed according to the government law. One cannot still have one foot in Jehovahs law and other in secular.  I can only use this secular law to get an acquittal or appeal or be found guilty and pay the penalty in this world....

Of course jehovah is the true judge in the ultimate finality ........ but I can still go to jail while innocent.. To carry on that it is not fair afterward is basically useless - the law has the sword.

Human rights court said Russia is breaking international  law -  they carry the sword and do as they please.  We can cry for compassion ..... but in vain.  This is secular justice for you.  Jehovahs justice is better but that will only work perfectly in future.

 

This is why people are outraged: In Epstein's case there is anger because the prosecutor worked with Epstein while knowing he had 37 child trafficking cases against him.....and the lawyers of the victims were told AFTER the fact that a light plea bargain had been reached...... this is how skewed justice has become.

The law must definitely be changed to take away client / clergy priviledge - although there are good arguments for and against it.  Until then,  these outraged people on this forum  can shout against GB in anger and kick and scream for justice and call us all hypocrites.........after due law process.  BUT do  they go and fight to get this secular law removed?   if they love  justice so much,they would. 

I accept that secular law is flawed. Parents must be more careful to protect their children. But young teenage children do not always listen to parents as well.  There is always two sides to every story. 

2 hours ago, Witness said:

Just the fact that child abuse exists in an organization that declares it is inspired by

Such an unrealistic statement (virtue signalling)  tells me you have no connection with reality.  Child abuse exists everywhere in the world.  An anointed brother in the first century slept with his own mother !  He was put out of the congregation and later re-instated. Who knows if there were hidden sex cases then as now.... 

You have no sense of justice.....based on reality.  and you really feel you have the right to give advice on Jehovahs justice and be unbiased and fair?  Wake up old girl.  You are just an emotional  hate mongerer. 

3 hours ago, Witness said:

Jehovah" is not powerful enough to keep his members out of prison in countries that fight against him.  He's not powerful enough to

Bad reasoning for a Christian.  I recall that Jesus was hanging on the stake and similar words were uttered to him.   

[Witness]

46 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Bad reasoning for a Christian.  I recall that Jesus was hanging on the stake and similar words were uttered to him.   

It was the Son of God that they ridiculed.  Are you bestowing divinity on an organization?  If "God's Kingdom Rules" through the organization, your "god" is very weak at defending the innocent, and following the laws of Christ.  "Love your neighbor as yourself".  Rom 13:9   And, just saying that God's Kingdom rules in the face of corruption committed by those who sell this bill of goods,  is blasphemy toward the Almighty God.

46 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Such an unrealistic statement (virtue signalling)  tells me you have no connection with reality.  Child abuse exists everywhere in the world. 

Are you comparing a "spirit-directed" organization to all other organizations in Satan's world?  Truly, this blasphemes the Holy Spirit.  

[Arauna]

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

Jehovah" is not powerful enough to keep his members out of prison in countries

40 minutes ago, Witness said:

Are you bestowing divinity on an organization?  If

No- she was talking about "individual members"  (see quote under my name directly above- I commented on this) but same type of scorn is projected on all JWs by implication. People do go to prison for not going to war you know..... not all have broken the law.

40 minutes ago, Witness said:

corruption committed by those who sell this bill

 Corruption is a term too broad for me yo comment on.

41 minutes ago, Witness said:

spirit-directed" organization to all other organizations in Satan's world? 

Yes - we are still in this world and have to contend with satan's corrupting influences. We cannot go out of this world..... even if we work hard to not show its spirit. 

It is inevitable that some will bring dishonor on gods name. One cannot expect absolute purity or perfection from any entire organization -  no matter how much holy spirit is on some of its individual members..... it is totaly infantile , unrealistic, immature and unjust to expect that. 

As an individual you can have integrity but not all in an organization has integrity.  Not all in first century congregation had perfect integrity - the seven congregations in Revelation is a good example of that. Jesus commended them but also chastised them for the bad things they were condoning. 

 

[Witness]

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

ou have no sense of justice.....based on reality.  and you really feel you have the right to give advice on Jehovahs justice and be unbiased and fair?  Wake up old girl.  You are just an emotional  hate mongerer. 

 

This is all drama played out on the stage of Satan’s world.  The apparent “lawyers” of God against lawyers in the world. God’s lawyers have been exposed for hiding their sins, but are now commended?   Is one group better than the other?  Possibly, in the eyes of God.  

“This is what the Lord God says: I have set this Jerusalem in the center of the nations, with countries all around her. 6 But she has rebelled against My ordinances with more wickedness than the nations, and against My statutes more than the countries that surround her. For her people have rejected My ordinances and have not walked in My statutes.

⁷ “Therefore, this is what the Lord God says:   Because you have been more insubordinate than the nations around you—you have not walked in My statutes or kept My ordinances; you have not even kept the ordinances of the nations around you— ⁸ therefore, this is what the Lord God says: See, I am against you, Jerusalem, and I will execute judgments within you in the sight of the nations.  ⁹ Because of all your detestable practices, I will do to you what I have never done before and what I will never do again.”  Ezek 5:6-9

As you compare the organization to those of the world,  God puts focus on those under covenant with Him.  Judgment begins with God's House - "Israel".  1 Pet 4:17 

Jesus had this to say to the lawyers and Pharisees of his day.  If the GB had any spiritual cognizance of God’s justice, they would heed the words of Christ:

“But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass by justice and the love of God. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. ⁴³ Woe to you Pharisees! For you love the best seats in the synagogues and greetings in the marketplaces. ⁴⁴ Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like graves which are not seen, and the men who walk over them are not aware of them.”

⁴⁵ Then one of the lawyers answered and said to Him, “Teacher, by saying these things You reproach us also.”

⁴⁶ And He said, “Woe to you also, lawyers! For you load men with burdens hard to bear, and you yourselves do not touch the burdens with one of your fingers.”  Luke 11:42-46

Having a sense of justice requires knowing and following the expectations God has set before us, NOT defending injustice and wrongdoing, which is becoming the organization's subtitle... "Jehovah's organization" "The home of injustice and wrongdoing".    

 

 Your organization projects God, Jesus and Holy Spirit, as powerless - needing lawyers to fight their battles in Satan's world, when love for one's neighbor begins at home - the organization itself.  

 

[TrueTomHarley]

17 hours ago, Witness said:

Unfortunately, based on our reading of the Montana Supreme Court's opinion, the Court was mislead by testimony offered by the JWs

When you promise your clients the moon and deliver goose eggs, you’ve got to say something. What do you think he is going to say? “I lost because I’m a crummy lawyer?”

15 hours ago, Arauna said:

As I just said - law is law....... no place for compassion. It carrys the sword.... and uses only the sword - nothing else.

It’s why you don’t apologize for anything. It will be framed as a confession. 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

Oh American Jehovah's Witnesses how wonderful you are. 

I thank you for making it known to the world that God's laws and Jesus Christ's instruction are different in each and every state of America. That God's standards are different in every state of America. 

I do hope you are so pleased with your GB and their lawyers. I'm sure that you are all glad that your GB have saved themselves some money.  

I'm sure you have not one shred of feeling for any Victim of Child Sexual Abuse in the JW Org. 

It is the teachings in the JW Org to lose all 'emotion', to rid ones self of fellow feelings and to give praise to the Org and it's GB. So be it. Your GB tell you that you MUST be a Baptised JW to gain salvation, and you believe them. Your GB said that those Victims of CSA were actually apostates telling lies, and you believed your GB. Your GB tells you that Armageddon is 'so close' 'its just around that corner', and you believe the GB. Your GB tells the Elders that it is right to tell lies as it is part of spiritual warfare, and you continue to believe it all. But you then pretend that you don't serve your GB. 

John Butler had a favourite phrase 'Collateral Damage'. Well some of you think (and say) that I am John Butler.. You are truly welcome to have your own thought as to who I am....  However maybe it is a British way of thinking, to have thoughts and feelings for others. I'm afraid I do not think it is an American way of thinking at all.  So America is probably not the best place to have the HQ of what you think is God's Organisation.  Having an all American GB or American influenced GB, is proving to be not good. They seem more worried about the money and their OWN positions, than they are about serving God properly. And the GB certainly have no love for CSA Victims in the Org. 

[the Sower of Seed]

On 1/11/2020 at 4:55 PM, Anna said:

Hopefully more brothers and sisters will gain a better conscience and report any wrongdoings to Police and Authorities as it still seems that Elders are exempt from doing so

When a person is a alcoholic or drug addict, what is the common goal of rehab?

To help the person gain a relationship with God! With Hope that a higher responsibility toward God will help the person refrain from wrong doing.

2 Corinthians 10:5 For we are overturning reasonings and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are bringing every thought into captivity to make it obedient to the Christ; 

A person may imagine sexual scenarios, is this the Christian thing to do? NO. A person seeking to be pleasing before God must try to control thought and actions. Why? See Galatians 5:19-21. 

Jehovah's Witnesses teach what fornication is and how such imagination is the first step of sin. What is sexual sin in God's eyes. To arouse sexual desire in someone who is not your wife or husband. This can be done many different ways.The Watchtower magazine often teaches it's readers to abstain from thoughts or actions that will cause emotional and spiritual pain. The congregation will always try to help individuals to "have the mind of Christ"

The Bible teaches of one of David's sons who imagined his half sister would react differently. In his mind he had left any desire to please God, and was full throttle toward satisfying the sexual passion that  imagination had built within him. 

2 Samuel 13 Now David’s son Absalom had a beautiful sister named Taʹmar, and David’s son Amʹnon fell in love with her. 

Amnon played sick and arranged for her to come cook him a meal. 

9 Then she took the pan and served him. But Amʹnon refused to eat and said: “Have everybody leave me!” So everybody left him.10 Amʹnon now said to Taʹmar: “Bring the food into the bedroom, so that I may eat it from your hand.” So Taʹmar took the heart-shaped cakes that she had made and brought them to her brother Amʹnon in the bedroom.11 When she brought them for him to eat, he grabbed her and said: “Come, lie down with me, my sister.”12 But she said to him: “No, my brother! Do not humiliate me, for such a thing is not done in Israel. Do not do this disgraceful thing.13 How could I live down my shame? And you will be regarded as one of the disgraceful men in Israel. Now speak, please, to the king, for he will not withhold me from you.”14 But he refused to listen to her, and he overpowered her and humiliated her by raping her.

With What Result?

15 Then Amʹnon began hating her with a very intense hatred, so that his hatred for her became greater than the love he had felt for her. Amʹnon said to her: “Get up; go away!” 

After his sexual passion was satisfied his chemicals returned him to reality and He Now hated her for not matching his imagination. In moments his thinking was changed, however, I'm sure desire soon returned. 

Sexual transgressions are nothing new in the world, however the wickedness is reaching higher levels than ever before. 2 Timothy 3:13 states that in our time "But wicked men and impostors will advance from bad to worse, misleading and being misled."

The cause: Every type of sexual desire can be fed on TV, Videos,The Web, magazines and any kind of product commercials.There is no conduct kept in the closet as unspeakable or shameful conduct. 

Though there may be individuals that have left any sense of responsibility to Jehovah behind, there is no reason to color the entire organization of people with the same brush.Jehovah's Witnesses are the only organization on Earth performing the expressed will of God as we read at Matthew 24:14 and Mark 13:10. They try to live their lives with a consciousness toward the Holy God they represent and teach others about. 

Most of Jehovah's Witnesses hate seeing the name of their God mentioned in a way that brings reproach and shame upon it. They hate that someone in their midst would act as a pedophile or betray the relationship between elder and those seeking spiritual help. When such a person is found in the congregation they are subjected to scrutiny by the elder body. It may be very difficult to tell whether a person is truly repentant. The world knows that if a person is found to be a non-repentant person, as someone who may cause harm to the congregation,or that they will continue to practice something that God hates, they are expelled from the congregation, this is what God Himself had instructed towards Moses sister who complained about Moses wife. Later in the 1st century, congregations were instructed to do this that the wrongdoer may repent and reapply themselves to reach out for God's approval. This is much like Jews previously practiced by removing people from the Sanhedrin, who actual had to move away from God's people in order to be able to work and live.  

Jehovah's Witnesses have great desire that the day will soon appear when Jehovah reads the inner person of every adult on Earth and each one will be marked as a sheep or a goat.The goats: everyone who has no personal relationship with the true God Jehovah, will no longer do any harmful acts or acts of any kind on Earth. While the sheep, those who have tried to act in a way that pleases God, both in their imagination and visible acts, will be allowed to continue living on Earth and growing towards the perfection Jesus enjoyed as a human being.These are ones who make a practice of bringing every thought into captivity to make it obedient to the Christ; this is the only solution to the excelling of wickedness being imagined and practiced on Earth. 

The Goal of Satan:As God's adversary, is to distort how you view any of Jehovah's Witnesses. He wants you see something unholy, transgressors of what is good. He propels this thought so that you will be less likely to listen to them while they do the will of God, just as Jesus did, preach the Good News of God's Kingdom. Just as Satan used many different means to stop Jesus from loyally acting as God's appointed Messiah, Satan will use many different ways to stop people from learning how God's Kingdom will set all matters straight. Satan does not want anyone to gain eternal life as Jehovah's friend since he will not be allowed life after his judgment is executed. That Good News of God's Kingdom includes the knowledge that God will give what is deserving to everyone bringing reproach on His Holy Name. You should also know that the majority of Jehovah's Witnesses hate what is bad and try to act as an exemplary neighbor!

 

[Anna]

 @the Sower of Seed I just want to say that is not my quote above, even though it says Anna. It's what 4jah2me said. 

[Arauna]

1 hour ago, the Sower of Seed said:

You should also know that the majority of Jehovah's Witnesses hate what is bad and try to act as an exemplary neighbor!

Thank you for taking the time to write such an excellent reply based on incidents in the bible.   Your entire reply indicated that you understand the issues involved which originate inside the person - the desires. It deals with the imperfect realities of humans and reminds us that we all are dust and Jehovah puts up with us all!  No human organization can ever be perfect because it comprises imperfect people.

Anna's response, which you replied to, indicates that family members and others must report these issues to authorities.  Sometimes those who know about the crime are advised to report it but choose not to do so. This also heaps finger pointing on the org.

If one has a hammer in your hand then everything looks like a nail. Some carry hammers all the time when it comes to JWs.......... logical reasoning disperses and the hammer becomes the focus. So be prepared..... they will find something to hammer on..... but  I could learn from the way you wrote that.  

 

 

[Anna]

1 minute ago, Arauna said:

Anna's response, which you replied to,

Wasn't my response!

On 1/11/2020 at 10:57 AM, 4Jah2me said:

Hopefully more brothers and sisters will gain a better conscience and report any wrongdoings to Police and Authorities as it still seems that Elders are exempt from doing so. 

 

[Arauna]

2 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

brothers and sisters will gain a better conscience and

One cannot go around suspecting everyone. When you go to the police to report you must have something more than just a gut feeling.  This is the realities of life.  Police in UK and other first world countries are famous for taking down real events and doing nothing.  People in the congregation may think it was not reported when case numbers have been forgotten.  So this can also become a point of contention later when it comes to light. Accusers against JWs   look for those discrepancies to focus on.

I, myself will report this behaviour if I see something that seems to be  more than a suspicion but how many witnesses (or worldly people for that matter) have education on this and know how to recognize it when there are clear signs.  You mentioned a case where a woman left her children with a perpetrator who was a family member.  

I know my daughter has left her daughter with good people for a couple of hours because she had no-one else to leave her child with in an emergency when she could not arrange ahead if time for a nanny from a reputable place.  Life happens and parents do take chances when there is no-one else to turn to. This is the realities of life.  You mentioned that she lost her  case because she took that chance in a difficult situation. Sad.... but this is governmental law...... it does not have compassion. 

Sorry about the quotes ...... I struggle so much to select with my hands - I make a mess of it......and take a quote where I manage to be able to select it........ a bad girl.

Most of my friends tell me I look so healthy and vibrant.... but my hand and eyes keep me humble....... my thorn in the flesh.  

 

5 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

That God's standards are different in every state of America. 

The secular law is the law -  once you get yourself in their system you are subject to it. It has the sword.   Get that? I guess not.  The only remedy may come when you are accused falsely or reported falsely yourself....... you will then be the first to cry foul. 

In UK your secular laws do not respect any religious laws except that of the muslims.  Police have persecuted fathers who have gone to authorities with real proof of rape.  This is the realities of life  (and differences) between secular laws and ordinary people who just try to live godly lives. 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

@the Sower of Seed  A person may imagine sexual scenarios, is this the Christian thing to do?

What is sexual sin in God's eyes. To arouse sexual desire in someone who is not your wife or husband.

@Arauna the issues involved which originate inside the person - the desires

Well then maybe you can both explain how two past members of the Governing Body were Homosexuals. 

Jesus words at Matthew 5 v 28 Berean Study Bible
But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

So how did brothers in Bethel know that GB members were homosexual. After all if that GB member even had thoughts of homosexuality then they were committing homosexuality in their hearts. Now surely as Anointed ones that would be sinning against the spirit. 

Some of you joke about 'tight pants Tony' of the GB, but is any of that really funny concerning the supposedly Anointed of God.

Not one of you JWs seem to realise any seriousness in any thing I write. I do think it is because many of you are American and as such you have become hardened of heart.  (I would think it is harder emotionally to live in USA) And @Arauna can easily be seen as hard hearted, also Mr Harley.  Yes the world is horrid and we do need to toughen up of course, otherwise we will 'sink', but I do definitely see a lack of love and  fellow feeling on this forum. 

To think that your 'guidance' comes via the Watchtower which is not inspired of God and which is written by ordinary men who also have wrong desires it seems, having read lots of things on here which seem to go on at Bethel. And that your GB are more interested in their own position and the 'money in their bank accounts', than they are in people who have been wronged by your Org. But JWs still serve the Org blindly. Still putting their money in, and still trying to encourage others to be part of it. 

But, if you put all your effort into walking 100 miles to a destination, you will not reach that destination if you are walking in the wrong direction because you have been misguided.  So, is your GB and it's Org really guiding you in the right direction ? An important question is, 'Are your GB / Writing Department / management / elders, really qualified to guide you?'  Well the scriptures say 'By their works you will know them'.  And it's a poor show right now.