Did Jehovah’s Witnesses Lie to the Montana Court About Confidentiality?

[Srecko Sostar]

3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

How, exactly, does $20 million for the plaintiff repair her trauma?

How, exactly, does $10 million for the lawyer repair that victim’s trauma?

The world is very eager to punish with regard to child sexual abuse, but does it actually do anything to prevent it? 

I believe how money can't REPAIR the Trauma.

Money can do other things, other sorts of help for victim.  

[Anna]

If anyone is interested in reading the actual transcript of the Supreme Court's decision, here is the link:

https://law.justia.com/cases/montana/supreme-court/2020/da-19-0077-0.html

So you can decide whether Jehovah's Witnesses lied to the Montana court about confidentiality. Remarks and comments are welcome (at least welcomed by me 😀)

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

53 minutes ago, Anna said:

If anyone is interested in reading the actual transcript of the Supreme Court's decision, here is the link:

https://law.justia.com/cases/montana/supreme-court/2020/da-19-0077-0.html

So you can decide whether Jehovah's Witnesses lied to the Montana court about confidentiality. Remarks and comments are welcome (at least welcomed by me 😀)

I don't have the concentration span for it thank you. 

But isn't the jist of it, that the GB / JW Org use of 'confidentiality' is totally different to what normal people would think of confidentiality ?  Isn't it that JWs can tell Elders, Circuit Overseers, HQ, et al, but still say that is is confidential. Whereas, Catholics use confidential to mean between one person and one priest. And Doctors use it to mean between one patient and one doctor.  I would certainly use it to mean only two people, the one offering the information and the one hearing that information.  But if your GB and in fact you JWs are happy to accept the 'spiritual warfare' used by GB lawyers then so be it. I'm sure God or Christ will judge you all in time. Especially the GB, that pretend they are Anointed, but, 'by their works' we know are not. 

 

[Arauna]

2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Money can do other things, other

We all know that money does not buy happiness.  Not only the lawyer will get 10 mil. but the psychiatrists will make a bit too! 

 Excuse me for being cynical but the way people use drugs these days  to kill all pain, they most probably end up being able to party and afford some expensive drugs..... 

27 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

GB, that pretend they are Anointed, but, 'by

I am sure you know all about it! 

2 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

most cases, children won’t be removed from a home without clear indications the child is in danger. '

Do not be so naive about the world.  Child welfare services have been privatized just like the prisons.... and a lot of money is to be made....... and kn the side... child trafficking for sex.

I have listened to a few programs of cover ups regarding child trafficking and child homes being used for this - networks which cross borders.

They also take children away from vulnerable mothers .... listened to a case recently where they took a child away from a  mother who looked vulnerable..... she had to fight for her child but the child had already been sexually abused by the system.

Both in England and US there are some horror stories regarding  this scenario.  The world has changed - one cannot trust these authorities any more where money is to be made. Good investigative reporters are assassinated or for some reason commit suicide.....

2 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

But then we can see that a lot of things 'inside JW Org' are wicked things too.  Not one human can be trusted. Its obvious why the scripture says 'Put not your trust in earthling man'. 

True - no organization is perfect .... there are always individuals who will let jehovah down.... but it does not mean that we are not his people.... we fulfill the prophecies.

3 hours ago, Anna said:

Trust your gut. If you suspect a child may be in danger, call 911 or call your State Child Abuse and Neglect Reporting Numbers".

A website also says:

"Whether out of fear of getting sued by the abuser for making false accusations, or a sense of not wanting to “get involved,” child abuse often goes undetected or unreported by those closest to it.

"Don’t worry about being sued for reporting child abuse. State programs receiving federal funds are required to provide immunity to people who make good-faith reports of child abuse or neglect".

"Persons who report suspected child abuse in go

Thrust your gut opens up the possibility of "mischief by law". .. just saying.   

 

[Anna]

9 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

But isn't the jist of it, that the GB / JW Org use of 'confidentiality' is totally different to what normal people would think of confidentiality ?  Isn't it that JWs can tell Elders, Circuit Overseers, HQ, et al, but still say that is is confidential. Whereas, Catholics use confidential to mean between one person and one priest.

It doesn't matter what the JW version of confidentiality is or was. The question posed in the heading of this post is: "Did Jehovah's Witnesses lie to the Montana court about confidentiality"

The answer is no, the JWs did not lie about confidetiality. The court was fully aware of the JW's version of confidentiality before it made its decision to reverse the judgment. The court reversed its judgment on the basis of the JWs version of confidentiality.

Page13 of the Court's Decision: "the summary judgment record demonstrates that Jehovah’s Witnesses have an established process for receiving and investigating reports of child abuse within their congregations; that they consider this process confidential; and that the process necessarily involves multiple elders and congregation members, including the accused, CCJW elders who provide spiritual guidance, and local elders who conduct the investigation."

9 hours ago, Arauna said:

Thrust your gut opens up the possibility of "mischief by law". .. just saying.   

Not sure what you mean by that....but if you mean that this could be misused to intentionally falsely accuse someone, then yes, that is true. Trust is put in the good will of people, and it is assumed that they will not make things up. People like to believe in the general goodness of humanity.  And there are many “good” people out there. But yes, this trust can, and has been abused, no doubt about that. I even have know of an experience where that happened. The underage daughter in the custody of her dad, wanted to go and live with her mom, so she made up a story about her dad, that he was beating her. She called child abuse helpline. I don't think we should underestimate the training these people have in knowing how to recognize authentic reports. The authorities came and investigated, and found out the real truth. The authorities are usually not quick at condemning someone without due proof. (We are taking about civilised countries). Separating families merely because someone suspects foul play usually is not the procedure.

[TrueTomHarley]

9 hours ago, Anna said:

Now I am sure there will be malcontents (as you call them) who will claim that he must have been brainwashed into being loyal to the organization.

I have called them “malcontents” because I don’t want to get @admin going again. Remember how he yelled at us all, saying that the rest of the world has moved on and nobody cares if people in the JW world are crying ‘apostate’ at each other and they think we’re all nuts? Who wants to risk that tirade again?

He has a point. It does have to ring a little crazy to anyone else. Will he accept my explanation that the early Christians had apostates as virulent—so virulent that two entire chapters of the Bible are devoted to them (2 Peter 2, Jude 1) and there is no NT writer that does not come to grips with them? I wouldn’t hold my breath.

From the meta-data of ‘TrueTom vs the Apostates!’—

No New Testament writer fails to deal with then-rampant apostasy—a movement which finds its counterpart today. Two Bible chapters are entirely dedicated to it. Apostates of that time would “despise authority.” How could that become a problem unless there was authority? They loved “lawlessness.” How could that become a problem unless there was law? They favored acts of “brazen conduct,” had “eyes full of adultery,” and were “unable to desist from sin.” How could that become a problem unless there was someone to tell them that they could not carry on in that way? Not only is the nature of apostates revealed in the above Bible verses, but also the nature of the Christian organization. 

Any faith too bland to have quality apostates—I am almost proud of ours—is too bland to be given the time of day. They validate us. The more “respectable” churches where anything goes—what would people apostatize from?

But the general audience may weary of the term “apostate.” So I say “malcontent,” “detractor,” “grumbler.” It’s just to throw Admin off the track. Because you know and I know the song these “malcontents” sing at their secret gatherings—the Queen song: 

“We’re the apostates, my friends

And we'll keep on fighting 'til the end

We’re the apostates

We’re the apostates

No way we’re losers

'Cause we’re the apostates of the world.”

[Witness]

For all of you dissecting this case, an opinion from a retired justice of the Montana Supreme Court

"Religion does not give sexual predators a pass"

https://helenair.com/opinion/columnists/religion-does-not-give-sexual-predators-a-pass/article_f22cf868-64b0-56c0-8028-6e690731adb3.html

 

[Arauna]

12 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.

Yes, this system has become so evil/vile and full of corruption that one cannot even trust governments to do the right thing any longer. The theatrical  divisions in government is an indication of what is going on below the unseen surface. 

True justice is something from the past.  This is how I really see this  worldly governmental system at present. There are many good people still left but they are helpless to do anything any longer because the system is now rigged with powerful 'wicked' people against them in all the right places - on top.

Children are not safe in the child care system any longer where large pockets of child trafficking has been covered up and child syndicates have now become international. Private companies and criminal gangs have gained control of the child care system in some areas and can pick from  the vulnerable children still in their parent's care. Not the entire child care system is wicked but pockets exist where governors or high officials close him are in on the game. I have listened to a few hair- raising stories while cooking.

Jeffrey Epstein's story is one of more..... where airplanes are used to transport young children around and they end up visiting private homes and parties etc.....pizza gate stories surface. ......and it is prevalent in the top echelons of society.  Both UK and USA involved. Part of Epsteins black book was released  (I cannot remember if it was by hackers) and top British officials were included.  Britain it has a long history of child sex, with PM Ted Heath one of them, royals, child TV presenters etc.

Prince Andrew was grilled because a few photos of him surfaced in the tabloids but the Clinton's are untouchable. Saw a new photo of mr Clinton recently with a young girl of Epsteins trafficked group. Absolutely nothing in the press afterwards. 

True investigative reporters and true whistleblowers end up dead in USA and UK and it is ruled a suicide.  Cover-up is all over. Watched a 60 minute recently where people spoke of one corroner always called out in in top cases. His history of false death reports was exposed. He was working with top officials.

Corruption in  law enforcement is high. I know of several policemen who ended up dead. Listened to one (fbi/cia -i forgot) who fled to Moscow.... to save his life and spoke about the corruption high up.... no longer safe to be a real (not fake) whistleblower.

Listened to a soldier's story recently  where she said she was moved to a new base  that was weird. The rules were different. She was targeted because she asked questions. She said money was disappearing from the ledgers.  Inadvertently by photocopying  the ledgers and proving financial  corruption ........she uncovered a child sex ring - trafficking. ......  She realised higher people were involved in the money scam when she was targeted after she went whistleblowing to higher officials ....but not in her wildest dreams did she suspect that  children were involved..... That only came out in the full investigation..... She had appealed to central government....as a last resort. She heard of a death at the base - a suicide before she came. She was suspicious.   True whistleblowers are in danger now .......because perpetrators are protected by powerful people.

This is why I think - the water on the top of this worldly system looks acceptable (it has the appearance that it is not yet a complete lunatic asylum)  but when one peers one centimeter below the surface -  the world has become  a paranna tank.  First world countries, where a lot of money can be made, is now the same as third world countries, totally corrupt.  Child trafficking is up there with drugs in revenue.

Citizens are no longer protected. Daily people are knived to death in Europe..... officials know what is the problem is but refuse to acknowledge it or write about it in the press. It is a taboo subject. People shout the extremist words when killing Jews or infidels.... but the officials "still have to determine the reason".  With child trafficking it has become the same scenario. One investigative organization blames the other for not doing a good job. America has something like 18 organizations similar to FBI and they all pass the buck to one another when bad things do manage to surface....

Brave whistleblowers in the child care system are harrassed by law and even lose their homes, and put into institutions under false names so family members cannot find them.  I listened to a former child service official's story  a while back - what they did to her in UK was inconceivable. 

In Ireland and England I have heard of investigative reporters ending up dead.  I cant remember all the names but I do know one thing - the system is rotten to the core and good people or children  no longer have guaranteed protection.  The system is corrupt and you can inadvertantly step on someones toes.  By ending up in the child care system, the child may face a worse ordeal.

 Epsteins madam (who trained the young girls) and the other names in the black book - none have been brought to justice. The FBI has all the tapes he used to blackmail high officials. After Epstein's  convenient death it all died down.  It seems the entire bunch were connected to CIA, MI 5 and Mossad .....he was an asset of these organizations.... and part of the MKUltra type experiments on children. 

Do any of you know about MKULTRA?  Secret experiments by the US government on children?  To see what abuse does to them ?  MKULTRA is just one of many such projects where research psychiatrists were part of the problem....MI5 /6 and CIA,are linked....... but that is another subject. 

Do not be misled.  This world system is no longer based on the older biblical values. It is not what we believe it to be any longer.  

I try to stay close to jehovah and stay out of the world as much as possible.  I do believe to be informed....so I can warn friends and walk wisely..... but I want nothing to do with the world's filth.  The individuals who bring dishonor on Jehovahs name - well the bible tells us about the outcome of those who live double lives.

The law is the law - unmerciful, not compassionate, especially if you are poor or uninfluential.. .  If you are rich....or influential.....other laws apply - one can get away with more than murder..... 

Last note:  the secret investigative  organizations have become  so powerful. They claim anything as 'priviledged information'.   Consequently,  pockets within CIA have turned rogue and protect each other. They hide behind the statutes which protect their information.  

Organizations such as' judicial watch'  have a hard time to get information out of them.   They have to sue by law to get information they are entitled to. Then after two years (the limit to receive requested information)  they take them to court and can only  get "redacted" information. 

The corruption in some of these organizations is high because it has allowed powerful enclaves to develop within the military industrial complex and the secret investigative organizations. These people are like mafia - a law unto themselves.

Like Rome, the rot from within has been USA's downfall.  USA will soon no longer be the power it has been in the past.... then the eighth government will have power for a short time.....(as the bible indicates)  and the king of the north will control the wealth.   Daniel 11 from verse 40. These new governments will claim that their digital surveillance systems will lessen crime but it will become a highly controlled environment where those with power have full say (total power) over the ordinary   people's lives.

No doubt, child trafficking will still go on but governments will know all about it. I read recently that a 9 month baby fetus is worth 40,000 dollars.  I have no doubt that this is the reason behind the new laws.  China has been doing this since it's one child policy..... picking up pregnant women just before giving birth to a second child, removing the baby and sterilizing the parent and then just throwing the mother out anywhere on the street.  Listened to an interview made in China in secret. 

 

 

[Srecko Sostar]

12 hours ago, Anna said:

If anyone is interested in reading the actual transcript of the Supreme Court's decision, here is the link:

https://law.justia.com/cases/montana/supreme-court/2020/da-19-0077-0.html

So you can decide whether Jehovah's Witnesses lied to the Montana court about confidentiality. Remarks and comments are welcome (at least welcomed by me 😀)

Supreme Court of Montana - Reversal, January 8 2020

I chose few paragraphs, and some accentuation.

The parties agree that elders are “clergy” under Montana law.

Relevant here, § 41-3-201(6)(c), MCA, provides: “A member of the clergy or a priest is not required to make a report under this section if the communication is required to be confidential by canon law, church doctrine, or established church practice.” ¶12 Jehovah’s Witnesses contend they are excepted from the general mandatory reporting statute pursuant to § 41-3-201(6)(c), MCA.

¶30 Jehovah’s Witnesses point out that imposing a narrow definition of confidentiality impermissibly could discriminate between different religious beliefs and practices, protecting confidentiality of reports made in a confession from a parishioner to priest, like the traditional Catholic practice, while offering no protection to a congregant’s disclosures to a committee of elders using a process like that followed by the Jehovah’s Witnesses. “It is the duty of courts, if possible, to construe statutes in a manner that avoids unconstitutional interpretation.” State v. Mathis, 2003 MT 112, ¶ 8, 315 Mont. 378, 68 P.3d 756 (citation omitted)

¶33 We hold accordingly that the undisputed material facts in the summary judgment record demonstrate as a matter of law that Jehovah’s Witnesses were not mandatory reporters under § 41-3-201, MCA, in this case because their church doctrine, canon, or practice required that clergy keep reports of child abuse confidential, thus entitling the Defendants to the exception of § 41-3-201(6)(c), MCA

We can reverse now something else: Did WT Society and all included in spreading "spiritual truths and doctrines" lied to general public and JW members by claiming how JW congregations have not clergy, priesthood class and how elders in congregations are not clergy, priesthood?

[Arauna]

46 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

doctrines" lied to general public and JW members by claiming how JW congregations have not clergy, priesthood class and how elders in congregations are not clergy, priesthood?

By secular laws - by worldly laws - they can be classified as clergy.   By Jehovahs laws-  definitely not. 

Please start to understand that we live in the world - we cannot go out of the world.... so worldly laws apply to us when we go to court.   In court they will apply the law in this traditional way. 

[the Sower of Seed]

On 1/13/2020 at 5:40 AM, 4Jah2me said:

Well then maybe you can both explain how two past members of the Governing Body were Homosexuals.

If people in the 1st century were homosexuals before learning the truth of God's Kingdom and Christ' sin atoning blood became anointed, what is the difference today.

The GB members are no different than any other witnesses, they just have been giving opportunity to direct the organization.They have not been blessed with an Apostleship and Outward Displays of Holy Spirit as some of them were.

Like us, and those in the 1st century, they repented and left ungodly practices behind and are reaching forward.They may have preached the message full time and been given responsibility one step at a time after many years. WHO IS THEIR JUDGE?

[Srecko Sostar]

8 hours ago, Arauna said:

By secular laws - by worldly laws - they can be classified as clergy.   By Jehovahs laws-  definitely not. 

Please start to understand that we live in the world - we cannot go out of the world.... so worldly laws apply to us when we go to court.   In court they will apply the law in this traditional way. 

Very good response from long term JW member. And very dissonante response!! 

From now on, because JW members obey secular laws (and because of agreements that WT Society and Courts made) in everything that not oppose to God's law, have to consider how to accept new terminology and to explain in publications and in field service when people ask about hierarchy inside Organization. 

It will be very interesting to see what would be reaction of new interested persons when congregants tell them, how JW Church elders are clergy only in Court cases against them, but in everyday life all are brothers. :))

WT Society giving few claims, few interpretations  about one standard: God is above all

1) obey God's commandments

2) obey secular law

3) obey God's commandments above secular law

4) obey secular law in everything that not contradict and opposing to God's commandments

5) obey Secular authority and God's authority when they work together and making compromise

I am very interested to see how and when  this "new clarification" (in your's or some other formulation) will see daylight in WT publications and on JW meetings. :))