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Arauna

Revelation: Babylon the Great, etc.

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On 1/8/2020 at 7:32 PM, Witness said:

Did Jesus or the disciples ever put a date on a prophecy and

Jesus gave them signs to recognize when the Roman's would be there in the holy place.......they had to be aware of the first Roman invasion to know they must flee before the second invasion would come..... but both if you believe we must not look at signs...... it is all spiritual...

On 1/8/2020 at 12:38 AM, Kosonen said:

For example I can not believe  WT teachings about:

Babylon the Great, the image of the beast, the beast with seven heads in

Just take the first one : Babylon the great -  I researched it years ago.  

Read book if Hosea - I quote just  a verses from Hosea 1 & 2:

" Jehovah said to Ho·seʹa: “Go, marry a woman of prostitution and have children of prostitution, because by prostitution the land has turned completely away from following Jehovah."  (Then jehovah speaks of Israel as his wife who was not faithful to him).

Hosea 2: "Accuse your mother; accuse her,For she is not my wife and I am not her husband. She should remove her prostitution from herselfAnd her adultery from between her breasts," 

And to her sons I will not show mercy,For they are the sons of prostitution.  5 For their mother has committed prostitution.She who was pregnant with them has acted shamefully, for she said,‘I will go after my passionate lovers,

 

Then she will say, ‘I will go back to my first husband,For I was better off at that time than I am now.’  8 She did not recognize that it was I who had given her the grain, the new wine, and the oil,And I who had given her silver in abundanceAnd gold, which they used for Baʹal

I will put an end to all her joy,Her festivals, her new moons, her sabbaths, and all her festive seasons.

will hold an accounting against her for the days when she offered sacrifices to the Baʹal images,When she would adorn herself with her rings and ornaments and would chase after her passionate lovers,And I was the one she forgot,’ declares Jehovah

 

From the above scriptures it is clear that Israel committed religious prostitution. She was supposed to represent the true God (be faithful to jehovah like a wife to a husband) but went after lovers.

In Revelation 17 we see a great prostitute who says she represents God but also has lovers, amongst others - the kings of the earth.  This, marriage between religion and politics started in ancient Babylon. 

There are many places in the bible that a  prostitute symbolises those who profess to represent God but are like a prostitute. 

So what about this can you not accept? 

 

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@Arauna Thanks Arauna for trying to help me. And I will try to help you in turn. I see your point that in the Bible Israel was figuratively speaking God's wife on earth, and because of Israel's unfaithfulness it is compared to an unfaithful wife, even a prostitute.

But the details in the descrition of Babylon the Great are quite many and many of them are very hard to fit religions in general. There is something else in the world that fit better the detailed description in Revelation 17 and 18. 

When talking about the symbolism of a prostitute in the Bible, we can find that also the evil city Nineve is described as a prostitute, quite similar to Babylon the Great. Nineve though described as a prostitute was never likend to God's wife. So Nineve was just a prostitute, or not, because Nineve was part of Satans kingdoms.

So, you see, I want to say that Babylon the Great, rather than being God's unfaithful wife, could instead be a prostitute whose owner is god of this world, Satan.

And like Nineve was a center for an empire, so Babylon the Great could be in the end time the center of an empire, an empire more powerful than USA or Russia or China, an empire that stokes conflicts and wars and everytime doing that grows stronger and wealthier.

Just for comparision, please see how much similarity there is with ancient Ninive and Babylon the Great. I don't mean anyone should link Babylon the Great to Nineve. I just want to draw the attention to the similarities, because that could indicate that Babylon the Great represent today a litteral great city, head of a secret empire more powerful than governments.

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1 hour ago, Kosonen said:

don't mean anyone should link Babylon the Great to Nineve

Agreed. But why did god call this city with great power over the earth and prostituted herself with the Kings of the earth "Babylon the great"?  What happened in Babylon which is a parallel today?

" Adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is making himself an enemy of God.  (Adulteress- unfaithful one)...... this should be a hint that it is not a political entity but a religious one.

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59 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Agreed. But why did god call this city with great power over the earth and prostituted herself with the Kings of the earth "Babylon the great"?  What happened in Babylon which is a parallel today?

 

The ancient Babylon fits as a paralell because God's people were captive there and even prospered there. Similarly today God's special people Jehovah's Witnrsses have prospered in today's Babylon the Great. The WT organization's headquarters have uninterruptedly been active there since they established in that costal powerful city. But now recently as we all know they have moved out of that costal city. That is a good move because today's Babylon the Great will be sunk into the see, but first burned. And sailors will see it from the sea in horror.

One point also why Babylon the Great can not be religions is because she has misled nations with spiritism as says Revelation 18. Beacause spiritism and religion are usually opposed. Religions usually condemn spiritism, so it can not be religions. 

But there has been a lot of talk about the ruling elite, that they are involved in spiritism through freemasonry and associated secret societies.

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12 hours ago, Kosonen said:

The ancient Babylon fits as a paralell because God's people were captive there and even prospered there. Similarly today God's special people Jehovah's Witnrsses have prospered in today's Babylon the Great. The WT organization's headquarters have uninterruptedly

This Babylon you refer to was the empire in 612 BCE - it is called the Neo-babylonian empire -the second time Babylon was an empire.

The bible speaks of Babylon the Great- why?

No- I am referring to the first Babylonian empire, a tyranny, built by Nimrod and his associates (not too long after the flood) when half of the world became divided (Genesis 10:25) in the land of Shinar.   They built a large empire with massive cities in Chaldea and Assyria and invaded territory which belonged to the semites (Asshur)  Genesis 10: 9-12.  This was before Assyria became a separate state and eventually a world empire which included Babylon. This was before Egypt became a world empire.

This was when false religion (Nimrod was an opposer of the true God)   divided the earth. There were  those who still clung to jehovah and those who followed Nimrod and helped him build this empire. The tower of Babel (with a temple on top of the tower) became prominent, the crown of the empire.  This was when governance and religion were mixed together in a king -priest.  Spells, spiritism, predicting the future with stars and the livers of animals, speaking to the dead,  oracles, became features of false religion and belief in the immortality of the soul. Trinitarian gods and devils.

Demons and their offspring before the flood, half-God half-man, based on the Nephilim, became worshipped and their stories were represented by the star formations and planets. Then these false religious ideas spread throughout the earth as a result of language confusion: such as the immortality of the soul and various trinities of gods..... Today we find in most religions such as Hinduism, ancestor worship, Islam and christendom to name only a few major denominations, the idea of the immortality of the soul which spread from Babylon to Greek culture and later was accepted by Christendom and Islam. 

The principle at 1 cor 10 applies. The nations sacrifice, but if it is not in correct way to the true God- they are sacrificing to demons..... being sharers with demons. 

12 hours ago, Kosonen said:

Beacause spiritism and religion are usually opposed. Religions usually condemn spiritism, so it can not be religions. 

This is a false notion. Israel as a nation were to stay only exclusively faithful to God but they continually strayed off and committed spiritistic acts by going after false gods and committing adultery etc. So too..... false religion continually commits spiritistic acts.  False religion commits spiritual adultery with the kings of the earth..... rejecting exclusive devotion to jehovah God. The world empire of false religion teaches immortality of the soul, trinities... which is rooted in the original Babylon - the mother of all spiritism. 

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1 hour ago, Arauna said:

So too..... false religion continually commits spiritistic acts. The world empire of false religion teaches immortality of the soul, trinities... which is rooted in the original Babylon - the mother of all spiritism. 

It is true that so called pagan religions are often involved in spiritism. Because they invoke demons. 

The word for spiritism in original greek is quote: φαρμακεία pharmakeía, far-mak-i'-ah; from 

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; medication ("pharmacy"), i.e. (by extension) magic (literally or figuratively):—sorcery, witchcraft.

 

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So is it not obvious that there is a clear difference of meaning between wrong beliefs such as immortal soul and actual practice of spiritism? 

And we should be aware that almost all churches that claim to be Christian forbid spiritism and sorcery, because they know what the Bible says about that. Also Islam strongly condemns spiritism and sorcery. You can make a research and see it for yourself. 

And don't you agree that the other characteristics describing Babylon the Great in Revelation 17,18 are impossible in their entirety to fit something what is called 'emiper of false religion'?

I give you a challenge: Can you to logically explain how every verse in Revelation 17 and 18 correspond to a so called 'empire of false religion'?

I think that would be an impossible task.

 

 

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19 minutes ago, Kosonen said:

claim to be Christian forbid spiritism and sorcery

It is the belief in the immortal soul which promotes all kinds of superstition regarding the dead and their powers.

Many Christian's claim to forbid it and yet practice superstition. Some have exorcisms, superstitiously wear crosses etc. A visit to south America or Spain and Portugal may open your eyes.  The celebration of the souls of dead or ancestors has culminated in Halloween - which most Christian's participate in.  Participation in drink, festival or ceremonies, song dance or a kiss to them is idolatry.

Islam is exeedingly superstitious -  the "evil eye " comes to mind, apart from the belief that the jinn can assault a woman sexually.  The jinn are demons created by God. Some are good and some are evil.  Imams exorcise these jinn from women. 

It is interesting that the bible calls greed, drunkenness, self-laceration and other practices - idolatry- and idolatry us called "spiritual prostitution" in Jg 8:27. 

So christendom does practice spiritism.....and spiritual prostitution and her adherents are drunk with the wine of her spiritual adultery - away from the truth as given us in the bible.

Covetousness is idolatry. Col3:5, being a slave to your belly from 16:18. "Rebelliousness is the same as the sin of divination" . Pushing ahead presumptuously the same as magical power and idolatry" 1 Sam 15:22, 23.

So if you still think that the world empire of false religion (which includes christendom) is not a spiritual harlot - think again. 

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@Arauna I know that some amount of members of "christian" and muslim religions practise spiritism and sorcery, just as some amount of their members are stealing, sexually immoral and commiting other various sins. But the point is that both those religions in general condemn those sins including spiritism. 

But who is the biggest proponet of moral decay in today's world? Which organized group or society has been directly promoting sin the past 100 year? That would be the mother of all disgusting things. Can you tell which society has been spearheading to normalize homosexuality and other disgusting sins the past 100 years? 

It is surely not the religions. But they have to different degrees also fallen for the presure from Babylon the Great.

So the religions are not the source of all the disgusting things but, they have fallen victims to Babylon the Great to different degrees. 

 The Bible talks about many different symbolic prostitutes. So we have to figure out what each represent. Individual christians are also warned in James 4:4:

Adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is making himself an enemy of God.

An other characteristic of Babylon the Great is according to Rev. 18:24 that it is the cause of wars and killings of christians: "Yes, in her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth.”

Well during our life time we have not seen any serious mass killings of christians in the Western world. But the Revelation book warns that an hour of testing will finally come over the whole earth. Rev 3:10. Then it will become more evident who and what Babylon the Great represent. 

But knowing who are stoking war today help us already to identify Babylon the Great. Check this article published  yesterday on a news site for private investors. That contains clues to identify Babylon the Great.

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1 hour ago, Tom Henry said:

 Paul never meet Jesus personally. 

Acts 26:14 "And when we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice say to me in the Hebrew language: ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? To keep kicking against the goads* makes it hard for you.’ 15  But I said: ‘Who are you, Lord?’ And the Lord said: ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 16  But rise and stand on your feet. This is why I have appeared to you, to choose you as a servant and a witness both of things you have seen and things I will make you see respecting me.+ 17  And I will rescue you from this people and from the nations, to whom I am sending you+ 18  to open their eyes,+ to turn them from darkness+ to light+ and from the authority of Satan+ to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins+ and an inheritance among those sanctified by their faith in me.’"

Tom Herry what do you say about that?

Here some more interesting things conserning apostle Paul.

Galatians 1:11  For I want you to know, brothers, that the good news I declared to you is not of human origin;+ 12  for neither did I receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but it was through a revelation by Jesus Christ.

Galatians 2:8 for the one who empowered Peter for an apostleship to those who are circumcised also empowered me for those who are of the nations

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12 hours ago, Kosonen said:

both those religions in general condemn those sins

Christian do not condemn Halloween for example.  The teaching of jinn that can assault women is part of the religion....of Islam.

Which part of society is the most disgusting to God? Is it not the part of society which was supposed to represent him and teach their subjects about him? 

 

 

12 hours ago, Kosonen said:

James 4:4:

The bible talks about spiritual prostitution or adultery in only one way - those who are not faithful to God. The scripture  you quoted above actually proves my point because it proves that friendship with the world is adultery against God.  Jehovah is consistent in his use of imagery....... otherwise we would be thrown about not understanding much.

12 hours ago, Kosonen said:

during our life time we have not seen any serious mass killings of christians in the Western world.

Think again,  Buddhists are killing muslims, Hindus are killing muslims and Christian's because they eat beef, muslims are killing muslims when they do not agree with their brand if Islam and Christian's are all going to war when their governments send them to kill.  The blood of many is historically on the hands of religions of the world. Soon they will kill all who profess christs randsom.

At present a genocide is going on in Africa and middle east - of christians....... and it is not even covered in the press. Boko Haram, Al Shabaab etc is murdering 60 to 100 every day. ISIS is not completely broken and neither is Taliban........ religion has a lot to answer for before Jehovah. They are covered in blood.

 

12 hours ago, Kosonen said:

holy ones and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth.”

Religion has been the cause of destruction and death throughout human history...... it is not about the 7th world power..... the 7th head on the beast. .... the Anglo-American world power.  False Religion  is a separate entity -a harlot.

The link you shared is about the globalists versus the nationalists, the iron and clay.   The image of the beast, the UN is busy with globalization as we speak.   176 nations have already signed 3 agreements to remove borders and join in the global agenda of the UN. ...... nationalists are trying to fight this........ but that is about the "image of the beast".

 

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1 hour ago, Kosonen said:

Then it will become more evident who and what Babylon the Great represent. 

It didn't go over very well, but some time ago I tried to get some comments on whether it was more likely that "Rome" in Revelation was a symbol of "the world." In other words, this system of things. That would include the economic sectors, the political/nationalistic sectors, even the religious sectors, including the world's immorality, greed, commercialism, fashions, entertainment, etc. -- all sectors that can be tainted with worldly motivations represented as under the power of Satan. In other words "the spirit of this world" and "the desire of this world."

This seemed to fit James, Peter and 1 John.

(James 1:27) . . .The form of worship that is clean and undefiled from the standpoint of our God and Father is this: to look after orphans and widows in their tribulation, and to keep oneself without spot from the world.

(James 4:4, 5) . . .Adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is making himself an enemy of God. 5 Or do you think that for no reason the scripture says: “The spirit that has taken up residence within us keeps enviously longing

(1 Peter 2:11, 12) . . .Beloved, I urge you as foreigners and temporary residents to keep abstaining from fleshly desires, which wage war against you. 12 Maintain your conduct fine among the nations,. . .

(1 Peter 5:8, 9) . . .Your adversary, the Devil, walks about like a roaring lion, seeking to devour someone. 9 But take your stand against him, firm in the faith, knowing that the same kind of sufferings are being experienced by the entire association of your brothers in the world.

(2 Peter 1:4) . . .having escaped from the world’s corruption produced by wrong desire.

(2 Peter 2:20) . . .Certainly if after escaping from the defilements of the world . . .

(1 John 2:15-17) . . .Do not love either the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him; 16 because everything in the world—the desire of the flesh and the desire of the eyes and the showy display of one’s means of life—does not originate with the Father, but originates with the world. 17 Furthermore, the world is passing away and so is its desire,. . .

(1 John 4:3-5) . . .Furthermore, this is the antichrist’s inspired statement that you have heard was coming, and now it is already in the world. 4 You originate with God, little children, and you have conquered them, because the one who is in union with you is greater than the one who is in union with the world. 5 They originate with the world; that is why they speak what originates with the world and the world listens to them.

If Rome represents "the world," the same world that Christians have conquered, then Babylon the Great appears to be riding on this "world" "the one who is in union with the world," apparently related to the antichrist, which was already in the world (many of them, in fact) and therefore these "antichrists" suffer a great loss with the demise of their "lover" -- the world.

I don't see why this would not at least include the religious sectors of the world, who are anti-Christ, by so quickly turning against his teachings whenever the world's desires get wrapped up in the desires of the religious sectors.

I see a couple of more specific solutions that would have made sense to the first audiences of Revelation and continue to make sense to us today by making use of the same symbols. But I'm not pushing for a specific solution here.

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@JW Insider 

Nice that you are ready to reexamine what really Babylon the Great represent.

A real eye-opener for me were all the verses in Revelation 17 and 18 that say it is a "great city".

This statement is repeated many times. So in order not to make things complicated let's begin with that, a litteral great city.

 Revelation 17:18 And the woman+ whom you saw means the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth.”

Revelation 18:10 They will stand at a distance because of their fear of her torment and say: ‘Too bad, too bad, you great city,+ Babylon you strong city, because in one hour your judgment has arrived!’

Revelation 18:15 The merchants ……..16  saying: ‘Too bad, too bad, the great city, clothed with fine linen, purple, and scarlet and richly adorned with gold ornaments, precious stones, and pearls,+17  because in one hour such great riches have been devastated!’“And every ship captain and every seafaring person and sailors and all those who make a living by the sea stood at a distance 18  and cried out as they looked at the smoke from her burning and said: ‘What city is like the great city?’ 19 They threw dust on their heads and cried out, weeping and mourning, and said: ‘Too bad, too bad, the great city, in which all those who had ships at sea became rich from her wealth, because in one hour she has been devastated!’

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On 1/10/2020 at 10:22 PM, Kosonen said:

much similarity there is with ancient Ninive and Babylon the Great. I

Just wanted to add this: ancient Nineveh was started at time of Nimrod..... and it followed the same religion ( away from jehovah) as Babylon.  

At the time of Peleg as mentioned in a scripture quoted earlier,  the world became divided in worship for jehovah , or against.

Gen 10: "Just like Nimʹrod, a mighty hunter in opposition to Jehovah.”  10 The beginning of his kingdom was Baʹbel, Eʹrech, Acʹcad, and Calʹneh, in the land of Shiʹnar.  11 From that land he went into As·syrʹi·a and built Ninʹe·veh......."  and other cities in what later became Assyria.  Apart from being a warlike place, Nineveh had  it in common that it was a city which rebelled against worship of jehovah in time of Nimrod.  

This city was established AGAINST instructions of Jehovah to spread over the earth after the flood.

On 1/10/2020 at 10:22 PM, Kosonen said:

could instead be a prostitute whose owner is god of this world, Satan.

Nineveh was a spiritual prostitute.  God would not call someone a spiritual prostitute if they were unfaithful to Satan. They must have strayed from Jehovahs worship.

11 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Rome" in Revelation was a symbol of "the world." I

Rome is quoted in Islam in its eschatology. It symbolizes the western "infidelity."  (Islam also uses this symbolism because Mohammad had the bible read to him and spoke to Talmudic Jews all the time while he was a merchant.)

This is why I find the alliance between Islam (part of harlot and Babylon the great)  and Russia so interesting. Alliances in Iran, Turkey, assyria..... and Turkey sees itself as a power in the Mediterranean. Religious (theocracies) with Russia.  

As matter of fact Arabia, Israel and US is another interesting alliance.... because of the incompatibility of the religions. So when the image of beast turns against religion, will we see these alliances suddenly break up?  ..... Or will the power of UNand its allies  be so strong to keep them together for a while so they will be able to call out peace and security?

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12 hours ago, JW Insider said:

If Rome represents "the world," the same world that

From the time after the flood - humans were given a clean slate.  They went back to false religion soon after on a massive scale. So bad - the entire world was divided and jehovah stepped in.  They went against his instructions to not spread out and stayed together to build cities and make war on each other. This is why Babilon the Great is a fitting description of false religion....... it takes us back to the progenitor - the mother city. 

There are only 3 major sectors in this world of Satan which jehovah has to remove to clean the planet up. Religion, Commercial and  governmental.    The beasts represent the world empires one after another,  the merchants and ships who cry represent the financial sector and religion is the spirirual harlot.

9 hours ago, Kosonen said:

say it is a "great city".

If you know the ancient history of ancient Babylon, you will know it was a religious center for almost 2 millennia. ...... and its influence on religion today is powerful.  Most pagan teachings in churches and religions today  originated from there. 

Can you imagine the shock when Babylon 's bedfellows turn against her?  They think she is a queen and nothing will happen to her, she has great wealth and is foundation of society....... she has great influence.  She rides the beast.  (Right now the Pope is making alliance with leader of Judaism and Islam to acknowledge only one God- in line with UN wishes......... but like a harlot she is leaving the randsom sacrifice and name of christ out of the agreement. )

In Russia, orthodox religion is used at present to build nationalism, and in the past, religious pastors went to war with soldiers to give shepherding support. This incestuous relationship between religion and politics will break up and will cause major upheaval.  It will cause major financial concern as indicated in the quoted scripture above. 

This is why jehovah says: get out of her my people!  Rev 18:4. 

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@JW Insider  Thanks, I agree that it is a good idea to have a separate thread for Babylon the Great.

I want just quickly again add some thoughts to who or what Babylon the Great is.

I agree with the WT that the beast upon which Babylon the Great rides is UN. So that means that Babylon the Great is in control of UN as its rider currently. 

So then we have to think about who is in control of UN? Naturally the architects behind UN are in control of UN. So that group of people should be Babylon the Great. 

By doing some research we can determine that they mostly if not all were from New York. So then Babylon the Great is not only those people but the city they live in and from where they project their power. And we know that UN's headquarters are in New York.

We have now seen that the Bible says it is "a great city", and a city with great wealth and power and influence both political, economical and "cultural", and a costal city.

All those aspects fit New York. 

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I have written some comments on here but noticed that the icon for someone to answer me has been removed. Does this mean that no-one can see my comments? 

 

9 hours ago, Kosonen said:

So that means that Babylon the Great is in control of UN as its rider currently. 

Steering the beast in a direction means to ride it  Yes, the Pope is busy making agreements with Islam and Judaism for one world religion...... so far  This is in line with UN agenda.  They will acknowledge that there is only one God whether his name is Allah, lord, jehovah  etc.  Jesus as randsom giver is not acknowledged because this is controversial.

They (the abrahamic religions) will build a complex of buildings for worship together in Abu Dahbi.   (UN or "image of the beast" is a coalition of countries who want to bring peace and security to this world by trying to unite everyone under one moral code in which everyone is accepted - no matter if you are a man loving one of the 57 genders.  They want to create a better world by removing borders and mixing all cultures. In addition they want to control all food, water, property, weapons, money - so as to make sure all receive equal material stuff....... I can go on about the idea to save the earth etc

While this sounds absolutely wonderful it is inspired by satan. Can it work?  Yes, until they call out peace and security and force all to accept one world religion.  

It may play out a little differently to this scenario above because unexpected things always enter the world stage..... but 176 nations have already signed UN agreements.  They are already ruling underneath other governments because their "image" of the world is being promoted as we speak.  NGOs and foreign money has already taken over local governments in USA, school curriculum and universities.  "Foundations" of the extremely rich are steering the world in UN direction because they honestly have bought into the idea - being atheists.  Europe is the same. 

 

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@Arauna I can read your posts. They are visible as before. I have just not commented your arguments. I don't want to dispute. And the matter with Babylon the Great is not yet so evident. Because the execution of God's servants, especially the anointed has not yet begun which will be lead by Babylon the Great. There will come a period of about 3 and half years. Only after that Babylon the Great will be destroyed. 

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7 hours ago, Kosonen said:

I don't want to dispute

Thanks for reply. Same here. I agree. Iron sharpens iron.... I like that.

I just read through Revelation 17 and 18 again and did not read anything about 3 and half years - I just had to make sure -again.  You mentioned this period where Christian's will be killed.

  The UN is already ruling like an image beneath everything.  10 kings have already willingly given over their autonomy (all in EU have) and they are included in the 176 nations who signed the agreements to bring one world order.

We are already in this time but most people are not aware. Religion is riding like a queen with these new agreements they are making in line with UN policy....to try for one world religion. Recently there was outrage in catholic circles because the Pope had south American native indian gods in the Vatican as part of the ceremonies during these pre-agreement meetings. By the way the religion of UN is theosophy and Bahai.... both have temple space in UN building.  Theosophy is a spiritistic religion and bahai believes all religions lead to God. Eleanor Roseveldt recited theosophy crede when UN was created.

Since Babylon the Great includes all false religion, I would historically equate drunken bloodshed to her....... Muslim wars, hindu/Muslim wars, the inquisition, crusades etc...... BUT  since Jesus has started ruling we have seen Christian fighting Christian in wars and Muslim genocides as well.  Muslim killing Muslim at present in Yemen with young children starving a slow death in horrific ways. Armenian genocide of Christian's comes to mind.  They were genocided only for being Christian.

However, in the past recent years I have been watching jihad murders all over the world and there is at present an extermination specifically of Christian's going on in north Africa and middle east. They are targeted by fellow citizens for being christian.  Absolutely nothing in the western news. As a matter of fact UK and Canada have denied Christian's entry because they were Christian. 

I have tried to make sense of this excessive killing myself to be able to deal with the sheer numbers and suffering going on.  I feel these Christian's  stay loyal to christ and refuse to give up their faith under pressure of death even while they do NOT understand the truth of the bible as they should.  Jehovah is righteous and just........ he is the great compensator and under his future government these persons will get a resurrection.  

I am almost sure we will see great governmental, financial and religious upheavals in the next three years - things can suddenly start to change rapidly. unprecedented changes and people will start to get faint out of fear....... but will they turn to jehovah? No. 

The environmental issues are also becoming more prevalent. The biosphere issues are coming to a head ...... we are close...... how close we do not know ..... but there are too many signs one cannot ignore.  

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On 1/10/2020 at 3:53 PM, Kosonen said:

But now recently as we all know they have moved out of that costal city. That is a good move because today's Babylon the Great will be sunk into the see, but first burned.

It seems that you believe that the Watchtower Society, or perhaps the Governing Body, representing Jehovah's Witnesses, have already followed the advice of Revelation 18:4 to 'Get out of Babylon the Great.' This happens sometime between the time when the angels say that Babylon has fallen, and before she is burned, and the rest of the world mourns for her from a distance.

We currently teach that Babylon the Great took God's people captive beginning in about the year 100 CE, and that Babylon fell in 1919 CE. But that she will be completely destroyed during the time of the Great Tribulation/Armageddon.

You must think that the Society and/or GB have made this move out of New York City without being fully conscious of Jehovah's leading in this matter. I say this partly because, while they themselves got out of of Babylon the Great, they did not ask all other Witnesses to get out of Babylon the Great (BtG) before it burns and sinks.

Of course, you might say that there is no need for other Witnesses to leave NYC, because when it's time for BtG to burn and sink, Jehovah can and will protect his people. Of course, this implies that Jehovah can protect individuals, but not an organization, or not the individuals in the GB. Then again, you might be implying that it was the temptation to share with her in her sins that made it more important for the WTS/GB to get out of the Great City (NYC), so that they would not be tempted to get involved with the UN in that same city, for example. Perhaps the temptations on the WTS were somehow greater than the same temptations of the Great City on congregations or individual Witnesses.

I see this potential contradiction as a hole in your theory.

Looking forward to your explanation.

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When we read Matthew 13: 24 onwards (the illustration of the weeds and the wheat) we can see what happened to start the Christian part of Babylon the Great.

Satan sowed wicked seeds amongst the wheat.  People in the congregation contaminated the congregation with wicked philosophies and practices. Many of these ideas came in from the Greek and Roman philosophies (which were contaminated by ancient Babylonian ideas).

The apostles held these pagan and wicked influences back (but after apostle John died -about 100 CE - ) these pagan ideas later became entrenched and even  later institutionalized  in the powerful churches. 

Today most witnesses give up their memberships in other religions - be it Hindu, Islam, christendom etc. They get out of Babylon the Great as individuals.  They are then known as Witnesses of Jehovah. They also do not participate or take sides in any political parties, political issues or any form of nationalistic events. We do not pay homage to national symbols/national days or go to war.  These are practices which are an identifying part of Babylon the Great 's harlotry...... the harlotry with the political systems (kings) of the world. Rev 17: 1-3.

Since the beasts in Daniel depict four succeeding world powers (2 are identified in Daniel 8 as Medea-Persia and Greece)  the beast in Revelation 13 depicts the world political system.  The beast in Rev 13 has all the combined features of the 4 beasts (empires) mentioned in Daniel 7 & 8. 

So how does this fit in with Babylon the Great?  Religion which rides (influences) the beast (UN and conglomerate) or commits fornication with the kings of the earth,  is doomed.  If one gets the mark of the beast with seven heads or the image of the beast you will be a spiritual harlot.  There are only two sides:  loyalty to the future kingdom government of jehovah God OR  loyalty by your actions of mind and hand (slaves were marked on the head or hand)  to earthly governments.

JWs believe that only the future government of God can solve all of the world's problems and therefore believe that only this government can bring true peace and security to the globe.  Other religions still put faith in humans governments to keep peace and security and will believe the human governments when they say they have achieved "peace and security" before the start of Armageddon.

1 tess 5: Jehovah’s day is coming exactly as a thief in the night.  3 Whenever it is that they are saying, “Peace and security!” then sudden destruction is to be instantly on them, just like birth pains on a pregnant woman, and they will by no means escape.  4 But you, brothers, you are not in darkness, so that the day should overtake you as it would thieves,  

 

On 1/12/2020 at 3:10 PM, Kosonen said:

All those aspects fit New York. 

Since we are dealing with a world political system, a worldwide religious and financial  system which is not according to gods wish for mankind - the bible indicates all three will be destroyed at Armageddon-  we must be careful to not attribute regional fulfillments to these proohecies.   It is events that will happen on global scale because satan is the ruler of the entire globe. He is behind all false religion, all bad and oppressive human governments and the financial system. 

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On 1/12/2020 at 3:15 PM, Arauna said:

have written some comments on here but noticed that the icon for someone to answer me has been removed

Not sure if the following accounts for your problem, but this forum is divided into ‘clubs.’ This club here is the JW open club. There is also a JW closed club. You must physically join a club to have commenting privileges in it. If you have trouble, check the thread’s banner to see if you are in a different club.

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1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Not sure if the following accounts for your problem, but this forum is divided into ‘clubs.’ This club here is the JW open club. There is also a JW closed club. You must physically join a club to have commenting privileges in it. If you have trouble, check the thread’s banner to see if you are in a different club.

It must be working since you just answered her 😂

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On 1/13/2020 at 6:44 AM, Arauna said:

I just read through Revelation 17 and 18 again and did not read anything about 3 and half years - I just had to make sure -again.  You mentioned this period where Christian's will be killed. 

That's right. Because very shortly after the end of the 3 and half years Babylon the Great is destroyed. And the book of Daniel in the Bible, chapters 7,11,12 and Revelation 11,12 and 13 describe the persecution that will be devastating during those final 3 and half years leading right up to the destruction of Babylon the Great.

Sadly the WT organization does not take the warning seriously because they teach those those prophecies do not apply on anything coming in a near future. Because they teach those prophecies got their fulfilment already about 100 years ago.

The Revelation tells that many will be killed for refusing to worship the beast or refusing to take the mark of the beast. 

@JW Insider I don't think the GB connects Babylon the Great to New York. But if I remember right I have heard that they thought it was best to leave New York after the hurrican Sandy struck New York in 2012, with prolonged power outages and flooding.

But I believe Jehovah God has influenced them to take this decision, despite them not understanding that Babylon the Great is New York. Hopefully someone will be able to explain this prophecy about Babylon the Great and New York to the brothers and sister living there. But untill the destruction of Babylon the Great there will be a minimun 3 and half years. That is the prophetic special time period in end time according to prophecies in the Bible. Unfortunately WT organization does not take seriously the warnings about the persecutions that will happen during that time because they teach that the 3 and half years prophetic time period belong to the past, to something that happened 100 years ago.

But there is no need for panic. The destruction of Babylon the Great is still at least 3 and half year away. Because the 3 and half years have not yet started.

 

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17 hours ago, Kosonen said:

@JW Insider I don't think the GB connects Babylon the Great to New York. But if I remember right I have heard that they thought it was best to leave New York after the hurrican Sandy struck New York in 2012, with prolonged power outages and flooding. But I believe Jehovah God has influenced them to take this decision, despite them not understanding that Babylon the Great is New York.

The hurricane, yes, and probably 9-11, too. A friend of mine who left Bethel shortly after 9/11/2001 thought that several of the Governing Body must have been thinking of leaving shortly after the WTC towers fell. He said there was fear in their voices, and a lot more closed-door, "bunker" mentality. I worked in Manhattan (at 30 Rockefeller Plaza) for many years before, during and after the 9-11 event, and there was a similar prevailing fear all over the city. Immediately, you could no longer use most of the extended underground tunnels that very few people knew about around midtown. You could no longer walk through (or under) buildings that had a door you could enter on one block and then out on the next block. Connected with the underground shopping concourses around Rockefeller Center, I could sometimes walk through 5 or 6 of 10 blocks underground, and 3 more blocks through the buildings so that.I would miss any rain or snow or pedestrian traffic. 

Hundreds of companies, including my own, looked for office space place in upstate NY, moved data centers outside the vicinity and began immediately moving more personnel and offices to NJ and upstate NY along with new or expanded offices in Atlanta, Charlotte, Chicago, etc. I ended up spending a lot of time in 'Warwick' (Tuxedo Park) just across from where the Watchtower offices are now located, because that's where we worked out our disaster recovery (DR/BC) plans for all our IT data centers. The WT wasn't there at the time, and I refer to the company that had an upstate HQ at the other end of the same lake.

17 hours ago, Kosonen said:

Hopefully someone will be able to explain this prophecy about Babylon the Great and New York to the brothers and sister living there. But untill the destruction of Babylon the Great there will be a minimun 3 and half years. That is the prophetic special time period in end time according to prophecies in the Bible.

I have no problem with the speculation that the destruction of the symbolic Babylon the Great could occur after a devastating persecution begins. Whether that persecution lasts a literal 3.5 years or more or less is another speculation that could well occur. As @Arauna noted, however, there is no definite placement of a 3.5 year period within the context of the discussion of Babylon the Great. The idea that BtG could be one particular city is not the kind of thing I would look for myself in Revelation, but I understand the appeal of this solution, especially when we consider Revelation does not picture then end of this Great City as the final end of all nations. (So many ongoing sectors of the world continue to mourn her, although we don't know for how long.)

17 hours ago, Kosonen said:

Unfortunately WT organization does not take seriously the warnings about the persecutions that will happen during that time because they teach that the 3 and half years prophetic time period belong to the past, to something that happened 100 years ago.

I take a strong interest in the Society's way of explaining it, and I know that it creates a few contradictions, but it still produces a rational set of events in a timeline. I am willing to consider other solutions as speculative possibilities, too.

No doubt, Revelation was written in symbols because the very intent was to fire our imaginations. I think that the symbols are so obvious in most cases that even a non-Christian would understand much of what Revelation's imagery would convey to the Christians who would read it.

I have a preferred speculative way of reading the book of Revelation, too. It would preclude the New York City scenario for some of the reasons I already pointed out, and for reasons I consider even more important. These additional reasons relate to keeping our speculations within the framework of the rest of the Bible. I don't think yours does, but then again, I'm pretty sure you probably wouldn't think that my own framework is correct either.

If I get time tomorrow, I'll explain some of the framework for Revelation that makes sense to me. As I said, it doesn't mean that you are wrong, or the Watchtower is wrong. But it's different enough that I would need to explain it as a foundation, before going on to discuss the specifics of Babylon the Great.

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On 1/11/2020 at 11:09 PM, Kosonen said:

A real eye-opener for me were all the verses in Revelation 17 and 18 that say it is a "great city".

Yes- and the name of the city is even more important.  As I explained to you earlier .  It applies to the time when Babylon was a city state..... after the flood.

It applies to a time when half the world turned against the ONE religion of jehovah god after the flood and refused to spread out and obey Him. Instead they built a tower in opposition to Jehovah with false gods and brought religion and rulership together in a priest-king.

Babylon means confusion....... because jehovah confused their languages and forced them to obey him. People did spread out and took their false religion with them where it proliferated in many forms.

Babylon was a great city.......and her influence regarding religion in opposition to jehovah is still influencing all people on earth in all the false religions which promote teachings which do not honour Jehovah. Now she is called Babylon " the Great".  The great confusion. 

Important to note: Cities in ancient Babylon were city-states.  Religion/superstition ruled and the kings were also high priests of the religion, the servant of the main God of the city. A mixing of religion and politics.

As I explained to you earlier - a conglomerate of governments in the world today have realized that different religions cause wars and division (originally caused by the spreading out of people from Babylon).. This is why there are similar features in the ancient towers and practices all over the world in religion. 

At present, the many diverse and even militant religions are causing much devision in the world.  So the UN and some religions  are now working on one world religion with a new set of morals and only one God will be unveiled..... how far they will get I cannot tell...... but you are right when you say the harlot will ride the red beast..... UN and its supporters. 

The harlot (false religions) have been the force behind governments for millenia BUT you may be right...... riding the beast means religion will take the initiative and steer the direction the world is going.

Watch 2020 because this is the beginning efforts of a world religion.   Religion is taking the initiative at present and although they are facing sex abuse charges etc...... they are recreating their image to keep the worship of the world focussed on them.  Soon she may be riding the beast as a queen- pushing UN agenda.  Other religions will have no place in this world.

The prophecies in Revelation come into fulfillment in the "day of jehovah"  when events lead up to a world-wide Armageddon.  So most of the events we look out for is not based just in one country or a city in one country but a worldwide phenomenon.  Rev 1;10

 

 

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@Kosonen, I agree with much of what @Arauna has said above but I would consider several different factors that get in the way of the NYC identification for BtG.

For one thing, there is what I already mentioned about the idea that Jehovah would "lead" the WTS out of NYC/BtG for a few extra moments of smooth operation and comfort when this tribulation on NYC begins, but not do the same for all the Circuit Overseers, Elders, pioneers, individual anointed ones, and "rank-and-file" Witness families. It makes Jehovah a "respecter of persons" and it makes it appear that Jehovah wants to protect buildings and physical equipment as somehow more important than lowly individuals. Yet Jehovah sees the "sparrow" fall to the ground.

(1 Corinthians 10:13) . . .No temptation has come upon you except what is common to men. But God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear, but along with the temptation he will also make the way out so that you may be able to endure it.

Why would Jehovah make the way out for some, so many years in advance, but not make the way out for others until a related tribulation is right on top of them? Potentially trapping Witnesses in the worst of all situations for 3.5 years.

I understand how you could still defend against this possible contradiction. After all, a major point of the Olivet sermon (Mt24,Mk13,Lk21) was to get Christians out of Jerusalem in time so that would avoid the greatest part of the tribulation, but not send them out so early that they would suffer for years waiting after fleeing to the mountains of Pella, for example. Jehovah made a way out in this case by opening a "window of opportunity" between the attack in 66 CE, and the destruction in 70 CE (which coincidentally [?] happened to be about 3.5 years). And of course, the cutting short of those days of tribulation was on account of the "chosen ones." You could make an argument that the "chosen ones" do not generally include the anointed or other Witnesses outside of NY headquarters, but especially refers to those "chosen ones" at the headquarters in upstate NY.

Through "eisegesis," it is possible to make almost any historical situation fit a Biblical prophecy when the prophecy is written in symbols, or we are overly anxious to see prophecy fulfilled. You mentioned the fact that the WTS makes most of this prophecy fulfilled 100 years ago. In truth, the WT writers could just as easily have found "significant" fulfillments for these prophecies anywhere between 1799 and 2019. Russell found fulfillments in the 1800's. The WT writers in Rutherford's time latched onto the most dramatic thing that ever happened to the WT organization during the time period of "limbo" between 1914 and 1925. As an example the Watch Tower publications promoted ideas like the following that very year in 1919:

-MdI0ZzfFvFHcT95yfm4im4d5ZsU1VA6m1kXAGJn

xT1jOFHkW4ojFKdYHJ0AN8-BKHQJqaEpuC8QoMZ8    

Of course, these writers were "cut from the same cloth" as those who could write the 1917 book "The Finished Mystery" which contains so many outlandish "fulfillments" of prophecy, such as Revelation 14:20 being prophesied in advance as the distance from Brooklyn to Scranton by way of the Lackawana RR station (p.230). This was a book that could literally find some significance in Brother Russell's hemorrhoids (p.54).

o7TUFpw6AHUm5fy2uALM9b_-Ukgpkng4fvB-fSzU

Of course, I'm not comparing your idea to the same foolishness produced in "The Finished Mystery." NYC does more than just "symbolize" a commercial center, a financial center, a foreign relations center (UN), a fashion center, an entertainment center. To some extent it's just about every kind of worldly center except a religious center. 

My main reason for dismissing the significance of NYC as prophetically significant here, however, is because I don't believe we should pin any of our "end-times" expectations on any specific "knowledge" about anything happening in the world today. That includes anything that the UN says no matter how significant it seems. It also means we should give no particular significance to anything that the Pope says, anything that any world council of churches or any other leaders would say -- if we think it means that the end is somehow more imminent because of anything we might think is a sign matching a prophecy in the Bible.

And that's because Jesus warned us that the end would come at a time when it would surprise us. A thief does not give a sign or warning before breaking into a house, therefore we would expect no sign or advance warning. The parousia will come upon the world while people are still thinking there is peace and security, much like the way life was going on as usual before the Flood, or before fire rained down upon Sodom, as if without warning. The circumstances of this speculation about NYC, according to your own explanation, provides a way of extending the end of the system beyond 3.5 years from now. This creates a problem. It creates a window of opportunity for some to say "the master is delaying" and a temptation to use that time to lord it over their fellow slaves. It creates a window of opportunity for the heart to be tempted into a lull, where the love of a great number of Christians could cool off. Jesus told us that it would come as a surprise for a reason. So that we would be ready at all times, not just trying to get our hearts in shape after we see a significant sign.

Also, you pretty much admitted that this NYC scenario provides "no reason to panic" on the one hand and a reason to warn Witnesses in NYC on the other hand, when this scenario is more widely understood.

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1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

Yet Jehovah sees the "sparrow" fall to the ground.

That doesn’t mean it doesn’t fall. Maybe he has a point.

Did you notice how Bro Losch ran down all those end-time predictions from about the year 400? There was a avalanche of them. When he got to ‘our brothers have made some, too’, he didn’t take cover in numbers. He doubled-down and went into detail of how they missed. He didn’t even use the perfect outs that he might have used—verses like Acts 1:6 to show that they were in good company.

So when they had assembled, they asked him: “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?”  

No budging on 1914, though.

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1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

And that's because Jesus warned us that the end would come at a time when it would surprise us. A thief does not give a sign or warning before breaking into a house, therefore we would expect no sign or advance warning.

I can agree. But GB wouldn't. :))

They wrote in WT study edition how JW members  need to be ready to listen/obey any instructions from GB to elders channels, because that will save their lives.

Elders who are reading this article can draw some useful conclusions from the account we have just considered: (1) The most practical step that we can take to prepare for the coming attack of “the Assyrian” is that of strengthening our faith in God and helping our brothers to do the same. (2) When “the Assyrian” attacks, the elders must be absolutely convinced that Jehovah will deliver us. (3) At that time, the life-saving direction that we receive from Jehovah’s organization may not appear practical from a human standpoint. All of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not. (4) Now is the time for any who may be putting their trust in secular education, material things, or human institutions to adjust their thinking. The elders must stand ready to help any who may now be wavering in their faith. -

    Hello guest!

 

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4 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

can agree. But GB wouldn't. :))

It uses the illustration of the thief to indicate we do not know the day  -this will be a surprise.

However, in Noah's day they saw him building the ark .  Laughed at him when he preached to them about the flood.  There were visible signs that something was going to happen. ..... they went on with their eating, drinking, marrying .... with normal life until the day came. Jesus co pares the perousia with this.

He also compares it to a pregnant woman.   This indicates one sees the sign of the pregnancy but the day one does not know of the actual birth. The bigger the stomach gets the closer one knows it is. So one knows the inevitable is here but jne still does not know the hour.

Then there is the fig tree .... when you see the flowers one knows the fruits will be coming.... one sees them growing and have an idea they will ripen soon.

The bible has many if these illustrations- - to deny their implications is basically putting your own interpretation on the bible.  They are clear and understandable. 

 

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9 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

They wrote in WT study edition how JW members  need to be ready to listen/obey any instructions from GB to elders channels, because that will save their lives.

This can still be true of times of great persecution which we can also expect to come up suddenly, as if without warning. (Although in cases like this, brothers in many lands can look for signs that might help them predict or prepare.) Everyone should be happy that the GB are thinking about support structures to try to help all of us get through hard times that are expected. We should be willing to consider that instructions coming from a central monitoring location can be very valuable. The Governing Body have collected experiences from Germany in the WWII era, and from many countries around the world since then. As long as we aren't accepting their words as definite indications that the end is imminently upon us, there is no reason to just reject instructions from those who want to look out for the whole association of brothers.

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1 minute ago, JW Insider said:

This can still be true of times of great persecution which we can also expect to come up suddenly, as if without warning. (Although in cases like this, brothers in many lands can look for signs that might help them predict or prepare.) Everyone should be happy that the GB are thinking about support structures to try to help all of us get through hard times that are expected. We should be willing to consider that instructions coming from a central monitoring location can be very valuable. The Governing Body have collected experiences from Germany in the WWII era, and from many countries around the world since then. As long as we aren't accepting their words as definite indications that the end is imminently upon us, there is no reason to just reject instructions from those who want to look out for the whole association of brothers.

I have nothing against advices or instructions that can be helpful. 

You speaking about preparations, experience that GB collected from past till now. You mentioned central monitoring location. What is Warwick, sort of Pentagon? Drones, satelites, spies, central intelligence "guided by spirit"? How can human experience, GB experience be helpful for Armageddon? 

For some local wars, disasters and similar turbulence they can have some experience and good preparation. But JW people expecting Armageddon, and all WT efforts are to prepare JW people for Armageddon. Kingdom will destroy all that opposes God. This is message in publication? Or not any more?

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14 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

What is Warwick, sort of Pentagon? Drones, satelites, spies, central intelligence "guided by spirit"? How can human

You really know how to pump things up in total unreality.

Overreaction (over the top accusation) is not one of the fruit ages of Jehovah's spirit

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1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

Everyone should be happy that the GB are thinking about support structures to try to help all of us get through hard times that are expected. 

Were it not for their concern my Go Kit would be a bag of pretzels.

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

You really know how to pump things up in total unreality.

Overreaction (over the top accusation) is not one of the fruit ages of Jehovah's spirit

I am not sure just how it happens—have they been goaded into it? I don’t know. But several of these characters have broken out recently into absolute either lunacy or hatred.

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1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

How can human experience, GB experience be helpful for Armageddon? 

The GB have earned a level of respect (not among certain detractors here) at least among the majority of Witnesses. Also, hundreds of communications reach Warwick, for example, from all around the world. Branch overseers have visited the Governing Body from around the world, reporting on experiences from those who have gone through various tribulations. The GB wouldn't be expected to share every experience they have ever heard from the field. But they would be expected to draw on some of these experiences, both old and new, as they deem appropriate.

Also, if you have been to Warwick, there is an exhibit called "A People for His Name" which contains many examples of items saved from times of persecution in various countries, including messages smuggled on toilet paper, etc. There are numerous examples of different ways in which brothers very creatively found ways to build up one another's faith during trials.

I don't see this as very helpful specifically for Armageddon, per se, but we do not know exactly what will happen, and neither do they (the GB). But if tomorrow they were to ask the brothers in Buffalo, NY to try to cross over into Toronto, Canada as soon as possible, then pretty full cooperation would be likely, and it might be useful for a purpose that wasn't told to everyone at first. Perhaps it was a problem in Buffalo, NY they needed to get away from, or perhaps it was a problem in Toronto, Canada that brothers from Buffalo could help with. (This may not make much sense, but if my example were Chile/Argentina, Georgia/Turkey or Zambia/Zimbabwe then it already might seem plausible.)  

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12 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Perhaps it was a problem in Buffalo, NY they needed to get away from, or perhaps it was a problem in Toronto, Canada that brothers from Buffalo could help with. (This may not make much sense, but if my example were Chile/Argentina, Georgia/Turkey or Zambia/Zimbabwe then it already might seem plausible.)  

I have great respect for you, seriously. And it will stay that way.

But need to go in little relaxed tone, atmosphere and say: This examples are possible, of course. But where, when and to who :))) Perhaps angels have more experience and will manage situations in proper way :)) 

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1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

Perhaps it was a problem in Buffalo, NY 

The old hen will rightly get mad at me for this one, but:

what in the world could be the problem with Buffalo NY? It has the largest summer garden show in the country. Call that a problem?

    Hello guest!

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On 1/14/2020 at 3:36 PM, Kosonen said:

Babylon the Great is New York.

"...all the nations have fallen victim...Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins and do not want to receive part of her plagues..." So you are saying that means: "Get out of New York?" What about everyone else on this planet who is affected that doesn't live in New York? Or am I not understanding your thinking here?

I know you are convinced in your own mind about your interpretation, but if, after repeatedly writing the GB about your opinions to "correct" them and teach them (your) right interpretation and they didn't agree with you; the elders in your congregation didn't agree with you (although to be fair you said they weren't willing to entertain much that way); JWs in general don't agree with you; people on this website don't agree with you (and with good reasoning points); and even that other anti-JW posters have a different interpretation than you - you may want to humbly consider the possibility that you may need to rethink the direction you have taken over the last little while - and that you may be wrong. You are essentially asking us to believe that everyone else is wrong and you alone have a pipeline to the "real" truth from God. Most JW's have good reason for believing what they do and even when at times -as seen on this website - we may have questions about certain points we'd like to explore, we still respect the GB/JWs as being where we learned the basic truths we agree with and make JWs different from other religions. 

But for arguments' sake, even if someone accepted some or even all of what you (or other anti-JW posters) consider the truth, then what? What have you got to offer? Leave off being a JW - (which you and other posters here seem to despise and denigrate so much), to go where? To do what? Become part of what? It would be like a driver who picks up an unsuspecting hitchhiker who seems to be going the same way, and then drops them off in the middle of nowhere - with no food, no clothing or shelter. 

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11 minutes ago, b4ucuhear said:

Kosonen: Babylon the Great is New York

No. I don’t think so on account of the prophet Frank: 

If I can’t make it, there, I can’t make it anywhere! I’m stuck with you, New York, New York!”

(New York State registered a decline of population last year and the governor famously said that it was on account of the weather. This led to loud guffaws from those who pointed out that the weather has always been the weather in New York. However, I agreed with him and tweeted that New York has some of the highest weather in the country—income weather, sales weather, and property weather.)

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18 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Revelation was written in symbols because the very intent was to fire our imaginations. I think that the symbols are so obvious in most cases that even a non-Christian would understand much of what Revelation's imagery would convey 

You know, I’m starting to get into this.

Is not New York called the Big Apple? And if it truly was the same as Babylon the Great—the Great City, could it not be said that God’s wrath will take a substantial bite out of it?

Hmm.....Tim Cook is the anti-Christ!!!!!

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1 hour ago, b4ucuhear said:

GB doesn’t agree with you, elders in your congraton don’t agree with you, JWs in general don't agree with you; people on this website don't agree with you (and with good reasoning points); and even that other anti-JW posters have a different interpretation than you, you may want to humblyconsider the possibility that you may need to rethink the direction you have taken over the last little while - and that you may be wrong. 

Not so fast. I’m starting to come around

1 hour ago, b4ucuhear said:

to go where?

To Buffalo, of course!

On 1/11/2020 at 2:09 PM, Kosonen said:

Nice that you are ready to reexamine what really Babylon the Great represent.

I am ready. Teach me.

For crying out loud, Where’s the modesty? (a HUGE tell, in my book)

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14 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Hmm.....Tim Cook is the anti-Christ!!!!!

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No No No! I've got it! Now that you've posted this image, it's become crystal clear. It is the bite that Adam took out of the fruit, which caused everything to go bottoms up, and is symbolized quite clearly by NYC, aka the big apple!

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On 1/11/2020 at 2:09 PM, Kosonen said:

What city is like the great city?’ 19 They threw dust on their heads and cried out, weeping and mourning, and said: ‘Too bad, too bad, the great city, in which all those who had ships at sea became rich from her wealth, because in one hour she has been devastated!’

”Amazon is no more! The Greatest Merchant on Earth. Lord Bezos was going to come and then he said No! The two witnesses—Bezos and Cook—who would decimate the Great City! Oh the profits we would have made! Too bad, too bad! Say....what town did Amazon settle on, anyway?”

10 minutes ago, Anna said:

No No No! I've got it! Now that you've posted this image, it's become crystal clear. It is the bite that Adam took out of the fruit, which caused everything to go bottoms up, and is symbolized quite clearly by NYC, aka the big apple!

You are a false prophetess! It is Bezos and Cook. Next to them, Adam is ....um....naked! Go, woman! Go far from here! Mislead not the fine folk at the World News Media Forum any longer!

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56 minutes ago, b4ucuhear said:

" You are essentially asking us to believe that everyone else is wrong and you alone have a pipeline to the "real" truth from God.

But for arguments' sake, even if someone accepted some or even all of what you (or other anti-JW posters) consider the truth, then what? What have you got to offer? Leave off being a JW - 

Those are valid questions. And I am convinced that Jehovah's witnesses as a people play an important role in God's purpose. I am convinced that Jehovah's witnesses will form the "great crowd" that come out of the great tribulation. But as you said it is interesting to explore what else there is in the Bible, because it is hard to get any sensible new light from the GB. So I recommend you all to continue go to meetings and to associate with your congregation. I think it is a good thing, that my wife and my children go regularly to meetings. There are always good biblical  things to learn. 

But then there are things that are incorrect and knowing the truth about those things should be a plus while staying in the congregation. That will also be beneficial for the future, because the earlier you know the truth the easier it will be later. That is why Jesus told his disciples in advance what would happen, for example about his death. At that moment they could not believe what he told them. But after his resurrection they remembered that Jesus had many times already told them that this would happen.

And I really do not want you to blindly believe anything. I want that just like when you studied the Bible and you understood basic truths checking scriptures that made sense, you now likewise look at the scriptures I present and you draw the correct conclusions. Your faith should be based on understanding as it was in the beginning.

We should only trust the Bible, because it is the truth and God's word. But we should not trust what men or women tell claiming to be  God's mouth pieces.

And I understand that it is hard to believe new things, even when scriptures are quite clear. After all we are not so much better than Jesus' 12 apostles. But earnest effort and prayer and investigation is what will make the difference. 

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5 minutes ago, Kosonen said:

So I recommend you all to continue go to meetings and to associate with your congregation.

Okay,

6 minutes ago, Kosonen said:

I think it is a good thing, that my wife and my children go regularly to meetings.

I see them. They are still saving you a seat.

9 minutes ago, Kosonen said:

After all we are not so much better than Jesus' 12 apostles. 

We aren’t?

Come on!—is this for real?

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10 hours ago, JW Insider said:

look for signs that might help them predict or prepare.) Everyone should be happy that the GB are

We remain ready - whatever happens. But Jehovah gives us enough information to watch the world around us and understand.  JWs understood who Babylon the Great was a long time ago and got heated up when certain events happened....... at least they stood on the tower and watched for any sign....they kept on the watch...

I personally have no problem with those who misinterpreted signs before.....no matter how silly...... they remained focussed on serving Jehovah and kept on the watch....... they loved jehovah. That is all that Jehovah sees.  Wicked people judge - let them judge - just go on undeterred doing the right things.

I look at world events now and in my mind's eye I say : thank you jehovah for allowing me to see how things MAY unfold.  If I die before these come to fruition, I can say that I have seen the events happen in my minds eye -  I believed every word in the bible by looking for that which it says may occur.... I stay focussed......to remain ready.

The first thing I will ask when I get a resurrection most probably will be: How did it really happen!.....

4 hours ago, Kosonen said:

hard to get any sensible new light from the GB.

They are preparing us for Armageddon.  They do not want to cry wolf....... they are very careful now.... the reason being because we are close to world events suddenly turning seriously bad....... too many to mention. To cry wolf at the wrong time will not be in interest of the sheep.

They are right in doing this because when things occur we will recognize the signs. They have showed us from the bible the signs to expect - we know.  We need no special interpretations any longer like way back in the past. 

5 hours ago, Kosonen said:

That is why Jesus told his disciples in advance what would happen, for example about his death. At that moment they could not believe what he told them. But after his resurrection they remembered that Jesus had many times already told them that this would happen.

Very good point m'dear.

5 hours ago, Kosonen said:

understand that it is hard to believe new things,

I know I sound like a nutcase sometimes....... but I watch the world closely..... to see where things are leading...... and I see things going on in the world (what world leaders are planning) that is absolutely beyond logical comprehension......and they are moving and pushing the agendas fast.......things are changing fast. 

The world we knew a decade ago is fast dissipating. The air we breathe is totally inspired by satan.  

It us time now to keep close to Jehovah, read the bible, keep up the preaching and associate with those who love jehovah.

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When the bible indicates that the merchants will cry when all the bedfellows of false religion makes her naked - I guess all the billionaires and stock market whizes  will start crying - and there are a few digital moguls in the mix. Lol.  

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7 hours ago, Arauna said:

When the bible indicates that the merchants will cry when all the bedfellows of false religion makes her naked - I guess all the billionaires and stock market whizes  will start crying - and there are a few digital moguls in the mix. Lol.  

I can not understand how elimination of religion would affect commerce so much. 

But if New York was suddenly destroyed by nukes from above and then flooded by a tsunami caused by underwater nuclear blasts. That would surely cause a serious commercial disruption. Are not international trades settled in New York?

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On 1/15/2020 at 5:20 AM, JW Insider said:

A friend of mine who left Bethel shortly after 9/11/2001 thought that several of the Governing Body must have been thinking of leaving shortly after the WTC towers fell. He said there was fear in their voices, and a lot more closed-door, "bunker" mentality

Thanks JW Insider for your comments. You gave interesting details. The above one  I liked to hear. And the rest about how people started to move out businesses from NYC.

 

On 1/15/2020 at 4:51 PM, JW Insider said:

Jehovah made a way out in this case by opening a "window of opportunity" between the attack in 66 CE, and the destruction in 70 CE (which coincidentally [?] happened to be about 3.5 years).

You thought about a very significant point. Following that pattern the period of time times and half a time in the Bible should logically occur right before Armageddon. 

And really, why would Jehovah tell us prophetically about events around WT society 100 years ago? Would it not be much more of spiritual value if it concerned Jehovah's witnesses before Armageddon now when there are millions of Jehovah's witnesses?

Add to this that most JWs find it very hard to understand the explanations in the litterature concerning 1260 days/42 months/time times and half a time. I remember how that was last time when we studied the Revelation Climax book. At least here the brothers were not happy studing that book for a third time. Because most of the explanations are not convincing, thus impossible to understand.

On 1/15/2020 at 4:51 PM, JW Insider said:

The circumstances of this speculation about NYC, according to your own explanation, provides a way of extending the end of the system beyond 3.5 years from now.

Some maybe need to think that Armageddon could come in a very near future, like within weeks in order not to slip away from God. But if we understand how severe the persecution will be during the 3 and half year period leading up to the destruction of Babylon the Great, then we will start really seriously search for spiritual things and guidance in God's word. Because that is the only thing one will care about in a spiritual survival mode. At least that is the effect it has had on me. 

On 1/15/2020 at 5:20 AM, JW Insider said:

As @Arauna noted, however, there is no definite placement of a 3.5 year period within the context of the discussion of Babylon the Great.

Maybe the shortest answer to that question is in Daniel 7:11 "I kept watching at that time because of the sound of the arrogant* words that the horn was speaking;+ I watched until the beast was killed and its body was destroyed and it was given over to be burned in the fire. 12  But as for the rest of the beasts,+ their rulerships were taken away, and their lives were prolonged for a time and a season.

 “I kept watching as that horn made war on the holy ones, and it was prevailing against them,+22  until the Ancient of Days+ came and judgment was rendered in favor of the holy ones of the Supreme One,+ and the appointed time arrived for the holy ones to take possession of the kingdom.+23  “This is what he said: ‘As for the fourth beast, there is a fourth kingdom that will come to be on the earth. It will be different from all the other kingdoms, and it will devour all the earth and will trample it down and crush it.+ 24  As for the ten horns, ten kings will rise up out of that kingdom; and still another one will rise up after them, and he will be different from the first ones, and he will humiliate three kings.+ 25  He will speak words against the Most High,+ and he will continually harass the holy ones of the Supreme One. He will intend to change times and law, and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.*+ 26  But the Court sat, and they took away his rulership, in order to annihilate him and to destroy him completely."

We see here that before this arrogant beast is destroyed it will have time, times and half a time, that is 3 and half years to 'harass', or persecute the 'holy ones' and speak against the Most High. 

So from this scripture it is quite evident that there must occur a 3 and half year persecution before Armageddon. And closely related to Armageddon will be the destruction of Babylon the Great.

This chapter 7 in Daniel essentially indicates that all the occurances in the Bible mentioning  3 and half years in various forms (1260 days/42months/time times half a time) end near the time of Armageddon. 

Here is a very similar prophecy in Revelation:

Revelation 13:5 "It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months.+ 6  And it opened its mouth in blasphemies+ against God to blaspheme his name and his dwelling place, even those residing in heaven.+7  It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them,+ and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue* and nation."

15 "And it was permitted to give breath* to the image of the wild beast, so that the image of the wild beast should both speak and cause to be killed all those who refuse to worship the image of the wild beast."

We see some striking similarities between the arrogant beast in Daniel 7 and Revelatio 13. And the time it will act is also the same. But in Revelatrion we get  additional information on what the persecution will be based. 

Does it not look like these scriptures fortell that there will come a time of persecution during 3 and half years before Armageddon?

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16 hours ago, Kosonen said:

I want that just like when you studied the Bible and you understood basic truths checking scriptures that made sense, you now likewise look at the scriptures I present and you draw the correct conclusions.

It sounds like you are absolutely sure of this interpretation. I won't deny that that the interpretation has some appeal. I brought up 9-11 because it was soon after 9-11-2001 that dozens of websites began promoting this theory for the first time, although several had already held that NYC was Babylon the Great for many years prior. If I were to search Google today with: "Babylon the Great is New York CIty" I get about 18,000,000 hits where the first few pages, at least, are full of sites that would agree with you. Even on page 10, I get a site reference that includes an interesting tidbit from a business site:

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    Hello guest!

    Hello guest!

Mar 6, 2018 - The greatest cities in human history, as determined by thousands of years' worth of data. ... Babylon: The world's largest city in 700 BC. < ... New York City took on its modern shape in 1914, when the Bronx joined Manhattan, ...
 
I'm not the one to try to punch more holes in this theory, because my own theory also differs from the WT interpretation. However, I don't see any problem with the identification of Babylon the Great with false religion. Personally, I see another strong possibility too, but I can easily defend the idea that BTG represents false religion, too. I think that when we start trying to interpret Revelation, we need to see how it would have helped readers in the 2nd century, or even the 1st century. We should also understand why it was not accepted as Scripture by most Christian communities in Asia Minor until the 5th century. 
 
If all Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining for righteousness, then Revelation should have held great meaning for Christians from the time it was first written. After all, Revelation was the report about the unsealing of the once-sealed visions of Daniel. Outside of Daniel, most Biblical apocalypses actually are a revealing of the actions in heaven that explain things already happening on earth. For example, the apocalypse of Job chapter 1 reveals what went on in heaven unbeknownst to Job that would have explained things happening on earth. Same with the prophets surrounding Michaiah. It was a revealing of things going on in heaven to explain an awkward situation on earth.
 
In a previous discussion, a Biblical case was proposed for seeing Revelation 11 an 12 as a revelation of what was already true of Christianity in the first century. (Where the two witnesses would have meant the witness to the nations and the witness to the Jews, and could have been represented by Paul and Peter, and the two olive trees would have meant what Romans said they meant, and the birth of the kingdom would have happened when Colossians said it happened.)
 
Along the same lines, I think that the symbol of Rome being destroyed was a symbol of what had happened when Jesus conquered the world, and how each and every Christian goes on conquering the world, by overcoming the desires of the world. In Daniel and Revelation, both, Rome is the final world power. Therefore, we can use it as a symbol, and know that ultimately the world will be physically destroyed to make way for a new heavens and a new earth, but we, as Christians, have already conquered the world! Rome is already destroyed for us in a spiritual sense.

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8 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

I'm not the one to try to punch more holes in this theory, because my own theory

I am reminded of a certain joker in our congregation who, with the dissolution of the Soviet Union, when I mentioned how the identity of the northern king was unclear and might again resurface somewhere else, said: “It’s Bolivia.”

20 minutes ago, JW Insider said:
I don't see any problem with the identification of Babylon the Great with false religion.

I don’t have any problem with the vast majority of ids in the Revelation book. Only a few of the early conventions in various locations are mis-identified as significant, They should have been ones all in Rochester, where I attend.

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1 hour ago, Kosonen said:

Thanks JW Insider for your comments. You gave interesting details. The above one  I liked to hear. And the rest about how people started to move out businesses from NYC.

Its interesting how JWinsider has an appeal when the aka comes from the same persona. He usually accuses others of being Allen Smith but has no problem being Allen Smith like. How funny people are to pat themselves in the back here when the underline about Babylon the Great is misunderstood by some just like 1914. But that's entertainment. In my neighborhood it's called the setup man. One sets up the argument the other one defends it for the opposing side.

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1 hour ago, Kosonen said:

And really, why would Jehovah tell us prophetically about events around WT society 100 years ago? Would it not be much more of spiritual value if it concerned Jehovah's witnesses before Armageddon now when there are millions of Jehovah's witnesses?

Would it not be of even more spiritual value if it concerned all Christians in every century since Revelation was written? This it would do if Rome was, in fact, the last world power. If it represents the system of things of this world and its desires. I don't think there would have been any doubt about the identification of Rome by the first readers of Revelation. All Christians would have understood that they were already raised up, made alive together with Christ, and already "seated together in the heavenly places." Christians understood that even physical symbols had spiritual meanings, including conquering and death and resurrection:

(Ephesians 2:1-7) . . .Furthermore, God made you alive, though you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you at one time walked according to the system of things of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience. 3 Yes, among them we all at one time conducted ourselves in harmony with the desires of our flesh, carrying out the will of the flesh and of our thoughts, and we were naturally children of wrath just as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of his great love with which he loved us, 5 made us alive together with the Christ, even when we were dead in trespasses—by undeserved kindness you have been saved. 6 Moreover, he raised us up together and seated us together in the heavenly places in union with Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming systems of things he might demonstrate the surpassing riches of his undeserved kindness in his graciousness toward us in union with Christ Jesus.

Of course, this does not mean that the physical outworking of these same symbols would not also occur at some unspecified time in the future. And, a physical fulfillment would result in actual wrath against the children of this world who still walk according to the ruler and authority of the air. This is similar to the Olivet prophecy about Jerusalem, which was initially about the current Jewish system of things, but which wold ultimately be fulfilled in the coming system of things -- the new heaven and the new earth.

This is why I think that the Society's view about Babylon the Great being false religion is still perfectly apt. Just because it was already being fulfilled in the early centuries of Christianity,  these symbols can still have a more physical fulfillment on a grander scale in the final judgment.

The quotes you made from Daniel point to the same idea.

13 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

Its interesting how JWinsider has an appeal when the aka comes from the same persona. He usually accuses others of being Allen Smith but has no problem being Allen Smith like.

You've convinced me that you are extremely dishonest. I have one account here; just one persona. I don't "pat myself on the back" with votes or comments from multiple personas. Therefore I am not Allen-Smith-like as you are claiming. That kind of Allen-Smith-like dishonesty is for immature people who troll forums to make themselves feel better about themselves.

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1 hour ago, Kosonen said:

And really, why would Jehovah tell us prophetically about events around WT society 100 years ago?

The purpose is sometimes in the "subtext" and sometimes declared openly by members of the Governing Body themselves. It is because Jehovah wanted us to be able to identify the faithful and discreet slave as the "Governing Body" since 1919. If the specific explanations are not convincing to us, it does not mean that the Governing Body is promoting it with ulterior motives. It could be true, and even if it is not a true fulfillment, it does not mean that it was just "made up." It just means that this is a traditional explanation that has been handed down for many decades and has been accepted as the most likely explanation until enough questions about it arose.

As you know, very recently the Watchtower changed the date for the Captivity to Babylon the Great from 1918 to about the year 100 CE. This was most recently tied to 1918 because it was the date that the WT had traditionally handed down since shorty after the "seven brothers" were made physically captive in Atlanta. It supposedly had been made to fit a few other beliefs the WTS has held about 1918 (i.e., first resurrection in 1918, removal of holy spirit in 1918, punishment for the cult of Russell/nationalism/political involvement, the cleansing of the Temple in 1918). But 1918 has now been nearly totally unlinked from every one of those old 1918 fulfillments.

When enough questions no longer had good answers, 1918 was removed from the prophetic "equations." If enough questions come up about 1919, then this might also go away. Until then, it serves a purpose of showing that Jehovah and Jesus had already prophesied about the Bible Students under Rutherford's direction, and approved them, and appointed them. But again, even if this particular identification for 1919 goes away, it doesn't take away from the overall, general value of the doctrines that were guarded by these same persons since the 1870's, and which began to be further refined especially BECAUSE of the events surrounding 1918 and 1919 and culminating in the cleansing of many false doctrines handed down from Russell between 1927 and 1931. A lot of significant things happened during this time period, but we don't need specific numbers to be interpreted from Daniel and Revelation to give them more significance. The good that was done and which leads to the good we are still doing in our association with the same worldwide brotherhood isn't taken away if these specific explanations of prophecies are dropped.  

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1 hour ago, César Chávez said:

But that's entertainment. In my neighborhood it's called the setup man. 

I sure made use of it, identifying the Big Apple with Apple the company with.a bite taken out of it as though smitten—also with Tim Cook thereby being one of the two witnesses and Jeff Bezos’ the other, for his company that  decimated the Big City by not investing there, running from local politicians like a Great Antitypical Scared Rabbit, fleeing to Virginia instead.

And I haven’t even gotten started yet about how Virginia must be the home of those who did not defile themselves with women—virgins. And Virginia abuts the American capital, the same way as does the Great Capital where ones who do not defile themselves with women hang out. (though, to be sure, in the literal capital, they defile themselves with plenty of women—other things, too) That means Washington is antitypical of the ruling city of Revelation! Doesn’t that Mormon temple there lit up at night—is that still there?—visible on the beltway prove it since it looks holy? 

Yes! It is all a drama that is foreshadowed by places and events of the United States! And what if you live anywhere else? Fuhgeddabuodit! 

To be sure, there are a few details that aren’t fully explained. I’ll have it all worked out by supper time. I am a prophet on fire, I am.

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12 hours ago, Kosonen said:
15 hours ago, Arauna said:

 

I can not understand how elimination of religion would affect commerce

If you only knew how many jobs are in religious organizations..... how many schools, day care centres, immigration offices (churcbas make milliions upon millions  from the immigration process) and as shareholder in banks....... . The previous Pope resigned because their bank in Italy was caught laundering money internationally.. ..

3 hours ago, Kosonen said:

events around WT society 100 years ago?

Jehovah is a perfect time keeper and his "project " to restore the earth (eph 1:9 speaks of the administration of his plan under the kingdom - the sacret secret....).. has a time-line and milestones. 

He has given us the seven heads of the beast and shown us what will happen directly after the "perousia" starts. (The 3 and half years fall in this period. ).... and gives an indication when the seventh head of the beast (which is also depicted as the duel horned dragon which speaks like lamb...... will blow life into the image of the beast  (which went into abyss and came out again - league of nations which later came up as UN). Later the UN and coalition of nations becomes the 8th king for a short while.... 

 

God puts it in the heart of Babylon bedfellows to turn against her.  How does the name Babylon fit in with New York?  Jehovah always uses the same picture words for certain concepts.

False religion or unfaithful religion is always depicted as a harlot  or adulterer

Horns are often rulerships or kings

Beasts depict specific empires 

 

 

3 hours ago, Kosonen said:

why would Jehovah tell us prophetically about events around WT society 100 years ag

It is part of the time-line but also because these people also needed encouragement in their own time -  to see some things going into fulfillment. They do not see the full promise like those when Armageddon comes but they saw things which helped them stay alert and watchful.

Jehovah cares for the beginning and the end of the generation.

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5 hours ago, Kosonen said:

Maybe the shortest answer to that question is in Daniel 7:11 "I kept watching at that time because of the sound of the arrogant* words that the horn was speaking;+ I watched until the beast was killed and its body was destroyed and it was given over to be burned in the fire. 12  But as for the rest of the beasts,+ their rulerships were taken away, and their lives were prolonged for a time and a season.

And the rest of this portion of Daniel that you quoted:

“I kept watching as that horn made war on the holy ones, and it was prevailing against them,+22  until the Ancient of Days+ came and judgment was rendered in favor of the holy ones of the Supreme One,+ and the appointed time arrived for the holy ones to take possession of the kingdom.+23  “This is what he said: ‘As for the fourth beast, there is a fourth kingdom that will come to be on the earth. It will be different from all the other kingdoms, and it will devour all the earth and will trample it down and crush it.+ 24  As for the ten horns, ten kings will rise up out of that kingdom; and still another one will rise up after them, and he will be different from the first ones, and he will humiliate three kings.+ 25  He will speak words against the Most High,+ and he will continually harass the holy ones of the Supreme One. He will intend to change times and law, and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.*+ 26  But the Court sat, and they took away his rulership, in order to annihilate him and to destroy him completely."

The fourth beast, we all agree, I think, is Rome, i.e., the Roman Empire. Our publications make this clear:

*** it-1 p. 269 Beasts, Symbolic ***
Babylon fell to the Medo-Persian kingdom, . . . Medo-Persia’s domination was ended by the lightning conquest of the Grecian forces headed by Alexander the Great. . . .The Grecian Empire was eventually taken over completely by Rome. The Roman Empire surpassed all the preceding empires not only in the extent of its domain (covering the entire Mediterranean area and in time reaching to the British Isles) but also in the efficiency of its military machine and the firmness of its application of Roman law to the provinces of its far-flung empire. Rome, of course, was the political instrument used to execute the Messiah, Christ Jesus, as well as to persecute the early Christian congregation.

Naturally, we want this to extend further down to our day, and it still would in a way, but it still ends at Rome. There is nothing here about anything beyond Rome. Nothing about the Spanish, French, Russian, Chinese, or Anglo-American world powers. And this is appropriate, because of the last highlighted sentence: Rome executed Christ and persecuted the early Christian congregation.

It was therefore ROME that made war against the holy ones in Daniel 7:21. And we know from Colossians that it was in 33 CE, under ROME, when the holy ones began taking possession of the Kingdom. In a preliminary sense, the "early adopters" of the Kingdom were the ones chosen as disciples during Jesus' lifetime, during his "kingdom ministry."

(Matthew 12:28-30) 28 But if it is by means of God’s spirit that I expel the demons, the Kingdom of God has really overtaken you. 29 Or how can anyone invade the house of a strong man and seize his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Only then can he plunder his house. 30 Whoever is not on my side is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.

It was Rome, backed by the "ruler and authority of the air" that "changed time and laws" by destroying the Temple at Jerusalem, or even intending to interfere with the timing of the birth of the Kingdom (Eph 1:9, Rev 12). Also, it is clear in Daniel that the 10 horns are kings coming out of this Roman kingdom, NOT new kingdoms throughout later history. It was during Rome's rule that Satan's rulership (therefore "Rome's" rulership) was taken away, at least from the perspective of conquering Christians.

(Luke 10:18, 19) 18 At that he said to them: “I see Satan already fallen like lightning from heaven. 19 Look! I have given you the authority to trample underfoot serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing at all will harm you.

(John 12:31, 32) 31 Now there is a judging of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 And yet I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all sorts of men to myself.

 

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7 hours ago, JW Insider said:

You've convinced me that you are extremely dishonest. I have one account here; just one persona. I don't "pat myself on the back" with votes or comments from multiple personas. Therefore I am not Allen-Smith-like as you are claiming. That kind of Allen-Smith-like dishonesty is for immature people who troll forums to make themselves feel better about themselves.

I do appreciate how you feel, when people make up things that are not found in scripture are dishonest. The good thing about "Babylon the great" could not possibly be tied to ancient ROME as you indicate, just to throw off people from thinking 1919 is not a worthwhile date.

Since you don’t accept 607BC, 1914, 1917, 1919 as prophetic dates, I am convinced you are extremely dishonest person, regardless if you claim to only have one account. LOL!

This has nothing to do with disloyal people supporting this scheme of adding Rome to the mix.

This ideal of the Greco-Roman heathenism and Judaism can be considered to the modern day Vatican College of Cardinals that held the same tradition of the Sanhedrin with 71 members. Therefore, it can be applied to the Catholic Church not Rome itself. Just because Vatican City is in Rome wasn’t a concern for writers, just false prophets we see today, just like back then. Then, it's the Catholic Church that will be implicated, not the people of Rome just like the Jewish Pharisees did with Pilate.

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9 hours ago, JW Insider said:

You've convinced me that you are extremely dishonest.

2 hours ago, César Chávez said:

I am convinced you are extremely dishonest person

By the way, when I have often identified this habit of yours as "defensive echolalia" I don't mean it as any kind of actual medical disorder. Seriously, I only mean that you so often defend yourself by merely echoing the same words back in a kind of immature "I-know-you-are-but-what-am-I?" style. (The one that comedian Peewee Herman made famous.) I am not referring to anything like an actual diagnosis of pathological "echolalia" which is something completely different:

image.png
    Hello guest!

    Hello guest!

Echolalia definition is - the often pathological repetition of what is said by other people as if echoing them.
 
2 hours ago, César Chávez said:

The good thing about "Babylon the great" could not possibly be tied to ancient ROME as you indicate .  . . . This has nothing to do with disloyal people supporting this scheme of adding Rome to the mix.

It probably did sound like I was tying Babylon the Great to ROME. I'll try to explain shortly. But first I wanted to look again at your reasons for saying it is NOT tied to Rome.

2 hours ago, César Chávez said:

This ideal of the Greco-Roman heathenism and Judaism can be considered to the modern day Vatican College of Cardinals that held the same tradition of the Sanhedrin with 71 members. Therefore, it can be applied to the Catholic Church not Rome itself.

I think this was meant to respond to the idea that Babylon the Great had nothing to do with Rome. I don't see your point, though.

2 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Just because Vatican City is in Rome wasn’t a concern for writers, just false prophets we see today, just like back then. Then, it's the Catholic Church that will be implicated, not the people of Rome just like the Jewish Pharisees did with Pilate.

I think this was also meant to respond to the idea that Babylon the Great had nothing to do with Rome. I don't see the point of this either. Hopefully you can explain.

I'll try to explain what I might have implied by throwing "Rome" into the mix in my next post.

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2 hours ago, César Chávez said:

The good thing about "Babylon the great" could not possibly be tied to ancient ROME as you indicate

To be clear, I never said that Babylon the Great was Rome, either as a literal city or even specifically the same exact symbol as Rome. But there is definitely a strong tie to Rome, if I am understanding the symbol of Rome correctly. I have proposed that Rome represents the world. Babylon is tied very closely to this same "Rome" as a symbol. Revelation says that this woman with the name "Babylon the Great" has something to do with the "seven hills on which the woman sits."

(Revelation 17:9) “This calls for a mind that has wisdom: The seven heads mean seven mountains, where the woman sits on top.

(Revelation 17:9, Catholic Jerusalem Bible) . . .“This calls for shrewdness: The seven heads are the seven hills, on which the woman is sitting."

There has been only one city that has had the name "the city on seven hills" for well over 2,200 years. The Latin Vulgate here says: "septem capita septem montes" (seven heads on seven hills[mounts]). Cicero and Plutarch both mention the "septem colles/montes Romae"  (seven hills/mounts of Rome) and both indicate that this term had been used long before Revelation was written. A Wikipedia article is here:

    Hello guest!

So any first readers of Revelation, would have just recalled (traumatically) the devastating attack from Rome on Jerusalem, and the continuing persecution of Jews and Christians by Rome. There would be no question how they would immediately identify the Woman as the Great City who sits atop seven hills. 

(Revelation 17:3-18) . . .And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet-colored wild beast that was full of blasphemous names and that had seven heads and ten horns. . . . On her forehead was written a name, a mystery: “Babylon the Great, the mother of the prostitutes and of the disgusting things of the earth.” 6 And I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the holy ones and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. . . . The seven heads mean seven mountains, where the woman sits on top. .  .  “The waters that you saw, where the prostitute is sitting, mean peoples and crowds and nations and tongues. . . .18 And the woman whom you saw means the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth.”

So this woman is a great city who sits on seven hills. At the time Revelation was written there was only city that sat on seven hills. So, yes, I would say there is some very close connection between the city of Rome and the prostitute named Babylon the Great.

Of course, I made it clear that I don't think the city is literal. But this woman has the name of Babylon and she sits on top of a symbol of Rome. The NWT cross-references Jeremiah 51:8 and Isaiah 21:9 with Revelation 18:4. In fact, the cross-references tell the story exactly in the way any well-read Christian would have read Revelation. It's the contexts of those cross-references, even though they applied to Babylon, that makes it easy to make the same application to Rome. These references explain both a physical and symbolic message that was simple and unavoidable:

(Jeremiah 51:5-10) . . .For Israel and Judah are not widowed from their God, from Jehovah of armies.  . .  6 Flee out of the midst of Babylon, And escape for your life. Do not perish because of her error. For it is the time for Jehovah’s vengeance. He is paying her back for what she has done.  7 Babylon has been a golden cup in the hand of Jehovah; She made all the earth drunk. From her wine the nations have drunk; That is why the nations have gone mad.  8 Suddenly Babylon has fallen and is broken. Wail over her! Get balsam for her pain; perhaps she may be healed.”  9 “We tried to heal Babylon, but she could not be healed. Leave her and let us go, each to his own land. For her judgment has reached to the heavens; It is as high as the clouds. 10 Jehovah has brought about justice for us. Come, let us recount in Zion the work of Jehovah our God.”

(Isaiah 21:9)  9 Look at what is coming: . . . Then he spoke up and said: “She has fallen! Babylon has fallen! All the graven images of her gods he has shattered to the ground!”

The clue is in the idea that all her religious images have proved worthless from Jehovah's judgments against Babylon. Jehovah's people must turn away from any reliance on false gods and turn back completely to Jehovah's pure worship:

(Isaiah 48:20) . . .Go out from Babylon! Flee from the Chal·deʹans! Announce it with a joyful cry! Proclaim it! Make it known to the ends of the earth. Say: “Jehovah has repurchased his servant Jacob.

(Isaiah 52:11) 11 Turn away, turn away, get out of there, touch nothing unclean! Get out from the midst of her, keep yourselves clean, You who are carrying the utensils of Jehovah.

These scriptures were about judgments against Babylon because Babylon had represented the cup of God's judgments against the nations. But, after that fact, for God's people Babylon had now represented the fact that they, in exile, were being held back from restoring the recently destroyed Temple at Jerusalem. Yet they were to restore pure worship in a New Jerusalem. These themes will play out in the rest of Revelation, too.

You had said I am trying to detract from 1919. Not exactly. Getting out of Babylon refers to restoring pure worship. For the WTS, this has been a long process that included positive and correct teachings that Russell had accepted before 1919, including removing "Babylon-like" graven images, which was a hallmark of Catholicism and even several Protestant denominations. There was a cleansing of false doctrines like the Trinity, hell-fire, immortal soul, etc. Rutherford pushed to get rid of several more false ideas that Russell had not removed, including an adjustment to the counsel about participation in war as early as 1917, although  most of the new adjustments came in the years 1927 to 1931, culminating in a name change that helped separate the Bible Students even further from the baggage of nearly 50 years for certain other false teachings and misinterpretations. (Christmas, pyramidology, Zionism)

I don't see anything particularly special about 1919, but I can understand that it was a year when opportunities arose for removing more false teachings. And there were some good new initiatives under Rutherford in 1919 that should be highlighted. (Especially expanded participation by many in door-to-door ministry.) But since 1919 was primarily a really big year for pushing the false teachings about 1925, I would not focus too much on the year 1919 itself. It's really a continuous stream of incremental progress, and the shock of failure over all of the 1914/1915 predictions was probably one of the reasons that so LITTLE progress was made in 1919 itself.

In truth, we as an organization have been blessed with spiritual progress since the late 1800's. There are likely many more blessings of spiritual progress to be made in the near future. We can be happy for this. We are blessed for it. Of course, you (Cesar) apparently hate it that I raise my little, unworthy voice in opposition to the chronology traditions we are still stuck with. That's your right and it's what I would expect from many Witnesses. But my own strongly-held conscientious beliefs include the idea that we would be even more blessed if these "strongly entrenched things" were overturned. It's not like these ideas are my own. In discussions at work while at Bethel have heard a few members of the Governing Body themselves (from about 1977 to 1982) struggle with the 1919 date and related dates. I heard Brother Dan Sydlik himself say that we ought to just scrap all this 1919 stuff and start over from scratch.

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10 hours ago, Kosonen said:

7:11 "I kept watching at that time because of the sound of the arrogant* words that the horn was speaking;+ I watched until the beast was killed and its body was destroyed and it was given over to be burned in the fire. 12  But as for the rest of the beasts,+ their rulerships were taken away, and their lives were prolonged for a time and a season.

Who is this arrogant horn who speaks great things?  The British empire which later became the dual Anglo-American empire. This the the horn who persecuted the people of God. It will go down as a world empire and the "rest of the beasts" will be "prolonged for a season" in the United Nations."  

11 hours ago, Kosonen said:

Because most of the explanations are not convincing, thus impossible to understand

You said some witnesses felt this way: the truth is that many witnesses hate history - have never opened a history book in their lives apart from the bit of  history about their own country they were forced to learn in school and barely passed. Now imagine this in a Daniel or Revelation book..... they do not dig in...... they just sigh and complain.... and say they do not understand.

This is why I partly believe that that the GB are now careful  to not get too complicated. They spoon feed prophecy - only that which is absolutely necessary to understand or being fulfilled in the presenf time - and can clearly be seen. 

It is better for new ones (and old) to learn to cope in a wicked world because there is a violent asault on morality all the time from every aspect of society. It is important to build every ones moral endurance  before Armageddon and their capacity to make good descisions.  GB teach life skills better than ever before..... 

 

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It couldn’t be further from the truth. I’m playing the same game you are. Does that mean you have a mental disorder? I don’t think people here would go that far.

However, when you make a statement about Rome, you need to be more specific, since the player in Babylon the great are the actors in the Vatican City. Those are the ones falsifying the actual intent of Christ in order for the POPE to continue his dominance just as the players of old. Then, it is the Catholic Church that is misleading people. Can other religions within Christianity hold the same distinction, YES! There are. Then the observation of Babylon the Great is simply FALSE religion. Who but the U.N. can carry that message to the other nations? Who can personally carry that message in open forums like this?

If you are referring to the cursed land, then you need to consider when the Papacy held a high court in France 1309, and the Papal States was from AD756 to AD1870. Vatican City wasn’t established until 1929 by the Lateran Treaty between the Holy See (Vatican Governing Body) and Italy.

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26 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

since the player in Babylon the great are the actors in the Vatican City

False religion today surely includes Vatican City. But I don't limit the symbol of Babylon to what might come out of the literal city limits of Rome (which includes Vatican City). I know that many have thought like this, including Russell and his early associates, even Rutherford. I didn't look it up for an exact quote, but I have read that at least one edition of the Catholic Encyclopedia states:

"It is within the city of Rome, called the city of seven hills, that the entire area of Vatican State proper is now confined."

26 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

Those are the ones falsifying the actual intent of Christ in order for the POPE to continue his dominance just as the players of old. Then, it is the Catholic Church that is misleading people.

Again, I would not limit it to Catholicism or even just the false forms of Christianity. I think the Watchtower publications have it right in defining Babylon as a "world empire of false religion."

26 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

Then the observation of Babylon the Great is simply FALSE religion. Who but the U.N. can carry that message to the other nations? Who can personally carry that message in open forums like this?

That makes more sense that it is simply "false religion." But I don't know why the U.N. would carry that message to other nations, telling them that Babylon the Great is simply "false religion." Perhaps you mean that only the U.N. could carry a message demanding some action against religion, in general, or against specific religions. At present, they have no such power to do anything like that. If they did, we already know it would be completely ignored, at least under current world circumstances. Most things done and said by the UN are ignored, or they have simply been overridden by countries with veto power. Therefore waiting on the U.N. to do something, even if it MIGHT happen, is really the same as waiting on some sign. And that particular expectation is based on an interpretation of a book wherein we have changed interpretations dozens of times over the years.

If we are still waiting on world circumstances to change such that such a message could be carried out with any effect by the U.N. then we are contradicting Jesus' words that the end can come as a sudden surprise at any time.

Since we know that it would take something much greater than the U.N. right now, we also must say that this scenario can only play out if we believe that:

*** rr chap. 18 p. 198 par. 18 “My Great Rage Will Flare Up” ***
They will not realize that it was actually God who put the thought into their hearts to get rid of religions that have so grossly misrepresented him.—Rev. 17:16, 17.

If it takes God to put this thought into their hearts, then there is no need to speculate at all about the U.N.

And your question about who can personally carry that message in open forums like this seems wrong. It seems like you are seeing way too much importance in a little "backwater" forum where only about three dozen persons ever speak up about such issues, and where two dozen of them are probably you.

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13 hours ago, Kosonen said:

and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.*+ 26  But the Court sat, and they took away his rulership, in order to annihilate him and to destroy him completely."

Daniel 7 speaks of the fourth 'beast' and the one arrogant ' horn' that grows out of it. Then it moves to and fro between the human actions of the little horn and jehovahs kingdom rule and from the horn to the remnants of the forth ' beast ' itself. One therefore must be careful to ensure what it is speaking about.

In the final summary of the chapter written by Daniel.....It is this Anglo-American 'horn' that persecutes God's people and "they are given into his hand"  ..... this comes after the kingdom was established... invisibly in heaven shrouded by clouds.

This has happened (JWs understood it to have happened) at a time when JWs desperately needed to understand what was going on with them. .. at the time they understood Christ must be in Kingdom  power. Their preaching was stopped.  The persecution was sudden and severe with leaders in jail-  a dark period- so they started to understand  prophecy  at that time  and they received courage  to go on....motivated to preach when they came free from jail.... (apologies- I must have read too fast the previous time I commented for it does speak if 3 and half period in this chapter) the same period is referred to in Revelation with respect to the 2 Witnesses.

Please keep in mind that the book of Daniel will open up in the time of the end (Daniel 12:4) and Revelation shows that it is visions which will take place  Rev 1:10 " by inspiration, I came to be in the Lords day."  The bible students were scourged and cleaned by jehovah according to their own understanding.  They applied micah 3:1-3 to themselves. Like lye they were washed clean. They were the messenger that later was to become the "slave"  just like John the Baptist came before Jesus. Russel and his clan was this messenger.

This was one of the milestones when they really needed encouragement ......so after the 3 and half times they received a ressurrection - came back to life to preach anew as a newly refined people.

 Whether a more severe period lies ahead- with 3 and half period our preaching work totally dead.... I do not know. All I do know is that we expect severe persecution now and have been prepared for it by the GB. Their interpretation of this prophecy before, gave them the incentive to go on..... with Jehovahs mercy.

We have had relative freedom for a number of years but the biggest assault ever is lying ahead - on our endurance and morality.   I am  sure that we will be attacked  in some way because we do not accept interfaith, blood, military service or LGBTQ. While JWs are the most proudly loving multicultural organization in the world -  it is already a felony to publicly be known to not agree with LGBTQ or Islamic teaching.... . In future, we may be branded as offenders against new government instituted morality if we preach to LGBTQ persons by preaching christ as ransom.  The war against the ransom sacrifice is on because we have to have faith in it to be saved by jehovah. Matthew 24 clearly indicates that those who follow christ will be persecuted.  

The new radical feminism is warring with the bible and wants it banned because they say it has historically promoted patrairchy in the West.   Illogical as it seems these radicals have Islam as their bedfellows - they ignore its extreme patriarchy where under Sharia women really have no rights. 

This is the illogical lunatic asylum we are living in now..... soon to become worse.

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19 hours ago, JW Insider said:

That kind of Allen-Smith-like dishonesty is for immature people who troll forums to make themselves feel better about themselves.

I believe that Mr JWI raises an excellent point

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9 hours ago, JW Insider said:

It seems like you are seeing way too much importance in a little "backwater" forum where only about three dozen persons ever speak up about such issues, and where two dozen of them are probably you.

Yes. There is no better place to hide than in plain sight. Even the participants her e cannot keep up unless they absolutely have no life. Are we to imagine that everyone else is eagerly following every word?

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2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Even the participants her e cannot keep up unless they absolutely have no life.

I'm so glad you mention this. I'm feeling guilty for having abandoned the 1914 topic for the child molestation topic, and now here, the Babylon topic. I'm being tossed about like waves, and totally distracted. By the time I get around to coming to the forum, 20 new comments have piled up on top of the one comment I really wanted to respond to, and mentally saved till later, and now, lo and behold, more stuff! Not only more comments in one topic but more new posts. Don't get me wrong, I would hate for things to get stagnant, but there is only so much time one has to peel back the layers of comments to get to the one you really wanted to reply to. I am still trying to get back to JWI on the 1914 topic! Pity we don't get paid for this....

@The Librarian I wonder, is there away where each individual member could flag comments of choice? And that way it would be easier to find and reply to at a later time?

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Now you’re making sense. How can the U.N. carry the message, by implementing other false religions in their order? Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. You seem to forget, in 1964, the Vatican was given a “permanent observer state by the U.N. If you have forgotten, then refresh your memory with the 2000 awake! Magazine.

What did the U.N. do between 1999-2010? Defamation of religion. What was primary reason, Islam.

At least you have made a change about, being convinced that Jesus was made king in AD33 and prophecy was completed in AD70 in which case the Roman Empire became Babylon the great for the seer. There was so much dishonesty with that assumption.

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32 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

What did the U.N. do between 1999-2010? Defamation of religion. What was primary reason, Islam.

Just a point of interest.  Islam countries have made inroads into UN. Woman's rights and human rights council are now run by Islamic countries who vote each other in..... things have changed.

The jew-hate in the UN and EU countries is a direct result of Islamic influence. Quran and Hadith stipulates that all Jews will be killed.  Hence the incomprehensible radical left and Islam's love affair - pushed by UN.

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1 hour ago, Arauna said:

Just a point of interest.  Islam countries have made inroads into UN. Woman's rights and human rights council are now run by Islamic countries who vote each other in..... things have changed.

The jew-hate in the UN and EU countries is a direct result of Islamic influence. Quran and Hadith stipulates that all Jews will be killed.  Hence the incomprehensible radical left and Islam's love affair - pushed by UN.

Exactly! The ultimate goal for Satan is to have the none religion (Atheism) hate any religion and to push each nation against organized religion. So far, the devil is doing a great job of it. This is why Trump will get another term. The Devil needs he's best player.

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14 hours ago, JW Insider said:

makes more sense that it is simply "false religion

An empire rules over others. Religion has ruled over hearts and minds of people for thousands of years and dominated their lives until modern enlightenment and Darwinism came along. Now religion still negotiates deals like the one for May 2020 but Babylon the great is losing its waters it is sitting on.

14 hours ago, JW Insider said:

At present, they have no such power to do anything like that. If they did, we already know it would be completely ignored, at least under current world circumstances.

Not true. 176 countries have signed the 3 agreements that put them under UN policies.  AGENDA 21, Agenda 2030 and UN migrant compact 2018.  Since the time of George Bush the G20 countries have been working towards UN goals as well as billionaires - who use their foundations to donate funds to projects that further UN goals. G Soros, Bill Gates, etc etc. NGOs are already I infiltrated in most countries to fulfill the environmental goals of the UN. It is just a matter of time until the UN and its coalitions start to rule openly.  When their policies are openly the only ones accepted everywhere.

UNESCO is pushing the new young child sex education onto every school in EU, USA, Africa, canada, Australia, NZ, UK etc. Countries who do not play ball get no funding. In my estimation the image of the beast is already ruling underneath everything.... it us just a matter of time now... They will replace the usual religious rules with a new world morality which includes LGBTQ.  If you do not accept this you will be seen as a rebel or radical.

1 hour ago, César Chávez said:

How can the U.N. carry the message, by implementing other false religions in their

The Baha'I religion has an office at the UN - they believe all religions lead to the one true God.  The other religion which carries weight at UN is theosofists (spiritistic origins).  Mrs rooseveldt read their creed at the inauguration of the UN. 

They will say there is only one God and he can be served by all religions - they will promote interfaith and the new set of moral rules as prescribed by UN. 

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On 1/17/2020 at 9:12 AM, JW Insider said:

God to put this thought into their hearts, then there is no need to speculate at all about the U.N.

The harlot is riding the beast - which may be happening soon in a more intense way when religion takes the initiative to promote UN policies and ideas about one religion and the new morality.

True, the "image of the beast" will turn against her when God puts it into their heart at the right time.... but to watch the relationship develop as indicated in the bible is interesting. No-one will suspect her fall from grace when she is riding high.

On 1/17/2020 at 9:12 AM, JW Insider said:

that such a message could be carried out with any effect by the U.N. then we are contradicting Jesus' words that the end can come as a sudden surprise at any time.

The surprise is that people believe the world authorities and trust in human institutions.  These institutions are going ahead with their world plans and all under satans control are buying into the propaganda from these trusted organizations which is  leading to Armageddon. It will be shock - not surprise.  However, we are informed - no surprise for us! 

On 1/17/2020 at 9:12 AM, JW Insider said:

backwater" forum where only about three dozen persons ever speak up about such issues, and where two dozen of them are probably you.

Yes, few here on the backwater forum but we can discuss and compare what we see in the world.  Nothing wrong with that. People can see something here and do their own research. 

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12 hours ago, César Chávez said:

At least you have made a change about, being convinced that Jesus was made king in AD33

Jesus was not just anointed in 29 and ruling as king by 33, he was also already called "king of kings." As you already know, I'm sure, there is no scripture or prophecy that depicts Jesus waiting to be made king in 1914.

(1 Timothy 6:13-16) . . .Before God, who preserves all things alive, and Christ Jesus, who as a witness made the fine public declaration before Pontius Pilate, I give you orders 14 to observe the commandment in a spotless and irreprehensible way until the manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which the happy and only Potentate will show in its own appointed times. He is the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords, 16 the one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal might.. . .

I'm not going to say that the scriptures are lying when they say that Jesus had been made king in the first century. I imagine that if you could be transported back in time to the first century and heard these Bible writers saying the following, you would be saying: "No! No! Jesus doesn't deserve all this honor. Stop referring to Jesus as King." Stop repeating scriptures like the one above, or like the title that Revelation gives Jesus:

(Revelation 17:14) . . .because he is Lord of lords and King of kings, the Lamb will conquer them. . .

(Acts 2:34-36) . . .“Sit at my right hand 35 until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”’ 36 Therefore, let all the house of Israel know for a certainty that God made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you executed on a stake.”

(1 Corinthians 15:25) . . .For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet.

(Matthew 28:18) 18 Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.

(Revelation 1:5) . . .and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “the firstborn from the dead,” and “the Ruler of the kings of the earth.”. . .

(Philippians 2:9, 10) 9 For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground. . .

(Ephesians 1:20, 21) 20 which he exercised toward Christ when he raised him up from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name that is named, not only in this system of things but also in that to come.

I can imagine you arguing with Paul, saying that he should stop saying that when Jesus was raised from the dead that he was already placed far above every government and authority and power and lordship, because that was the same as saying that he was given a name even higher than kings and emperors and Caesars. You might argue to Paul that he should stop saying such things, because then Paul himself is saying that Jesus is a king. Surely, Jesus was just joking when he told Pilate that the governor himself was saying that he was a king. Surely the sign on the stake was wrong when it claimed that Jesus had said he was a king. Perhaps you would argue against the title Christ, too. Because Christ was the same as saying he was the Messiah: the Messianic king.

(Mark 15:32) . . .Let the Christ, the King of Israel, now come down off the torture stake, . . .

(Luke 23:2, 3) . . .and saying he himself is Christ a king.” 3 Now Pilate asked him the question: “Are you the King of the Jews?” In answer he said: “You yourself are saying it.”

(Luke 23:35-38) . . .let him save himself if he is the Christ of God, the Chosen One.” 36 Even the soldiers mocked him, coming up and offering him sour wine 37 and saying: “If you are the King of the Jews, save yourself.” 38 There was also an inscription over him: “This is the King of the Jews.

12 hours ago, César Chávez said:

and prophecy was completed in AD70

Prophecy was not completed in 70. But we do know that in the first century Jesus said that his disciples should stop concerning themselves with chronology.

54 minutes ago, Arauna said:

The harlot is riding the beast - which may be happening soon in a more intense way when religion takes the initiative to promote UN policies and ideas about one religion and the new morality.

This is all very possible, and one way or another these scriptures will be fulfilled. But we must watch out for hubris and presumptuousness when we try to pretend that we absolutely know it must happen through a specific agency on earth. Jehovah may fulfill his word by making rocks cry out if necessary. We should keep in mind that these are very interesting and sometimes reasonable interpretations, but they are still just interpretations. It's very haughty to look at a track record that has failed on every single prophetic prediction so far, and then claim that we must be right on this particular future prediction.

You probably know that there are several religions in Christendom that believe we must watch the United Nations for fulfillments of several Bible prophecies and end-time events. There area also several conspiratorial crackpots who discuss the UN and declare exaggerated claims for the purpose of fearmongering for followers. There is a lot that appears to be "truth" about the UN from various "trustworthy" sources that claim to be directly quoting UN documents. But when you take the time to look at the actual documents they are interpreting, you realize that it's built on half-truths or less.

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On 1/17/2020 at 8:49 AM, César Chávez said:

Those are the ones falsifying the actual intent of Christ in order for the POPE to continue his dominance just as the players

Yes - christendom has been a major player in promoting falsehood regarding the kingdom of christ. It has had its tentacles in most major political events and wars and now again promoting UN policies as the only solution to mankind to bring unity and peace! 

52 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

(Mark 15:32) . . .Let the Christ, the King of Israel, now come down off the torture stake, . . .

This refers to the fact that the bible promised a future king. Jesus was not yet king while on the torture stake.

53 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

But we do know that in the first century Jesus said that his disciples should stop concerning themselves with chronology.

I think the word you meant was genealogy.  I do not debate about this (as the bible days) but I believe it is important to know when you speak to a jew or Muslim or a hindu to prove that the bible is the word of God because of its consistency in fulfillment of prophecy. The genealogy is important to know. Why did god then insert it in the bible? He could have left it out..... but arguments among Christian's about it serves no purpose.

While genealogy is close to chronology - God would have left it out of the bible if it was not worth investigating.

Same with 1914 - important to show continuity in the bible and consistency in time-line and prophecy.  Why did god then mention the "time" of the gentiles if he (at the right time) did not want us to wonder what it would mean?

The book Daniel was sealed up till the time was right to be revealed:   

Daniel 12: "“As for you, Daniel, keep the words secret, and seal up the book until the time of the end. Many will rove about, and the true knowledge will become abundant.”      Then he said: “Go, Daniel, because the words are to be kept secret and sealed up until the time of the end.  10 Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will act wickedly, and none of the wicked will understand; but those having insight will understand. 11 "

Those having insight will understand..... 

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1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

actual documents they are interpreting, you

There is no 'interpreting' some of the words. They are straight forward. ie.People who write against immigrants must be ' retrained.'.... .... reporters cannot get employment if they do not follow these policies. 

The UN  sex education promoted by UN  - no opposition tolerated. Parents barred when they complain. Rules are becoming draconian.  

Most churches think the mark of the beast is computer chips and AI chips which we all soon may have to wear to make financial transactions- which will be part of surveillance.  But they still believe in human political and religious institutions to fix all problems.  They are not  getting out Babylon or the beast. So they still will get the mark when they support some faction of the beast - be it right or left.

Yes I understand your caution and say we can be presumptuous.... but there are too many signs now to ignore.  The build up in China and Russia (agreements in oil, gas, satellites, acquisition of minerals and assets - ports, airports and influence etc). US chaos and acrimony in government and foreign enemy  funding of organizations in the US that is out of control ..... I can go on and on about Russia's allies expanding into the Mediterranean... it is unprecedented stuff.  Most witnesses I know still think the UN has no teeth..... which is a fallacy. It is not depicted as an eighth head of the beast .... it is an "image of the beast" a " reflection" of the beast.

Its policies are everywhere you go. When I came to Rep of Georgia I immediately knew the EU is active here.  Just by looking at Agenda 21 features being completed. 

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

we absolutely know it must happen through a specific agency on earth.

The bible tells us the "image of the beast" will do certain things.  So it is not unbiblical to investigate the UN.

Most conservative organizations oppose the UN agenda because they are fighting for autonomy to keep independence and closed borders - not because they believe it will fulfill bible prophecy.  If they cared for bible prophecy and understood the beast - they would get out if religion and politics.

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5 hours ago, JW Insider said:

 a track record that has failed on every single prophetic prediction so far, and then claim that we must be right on this particular future prediction.

I was always impressed that the wild beast goes into the abyss, then comes out again, and that Knorr seemed to anticipate it.

I had two close friends who both gave me a hard time about the UN when I became a Witness. It seemed so weird to them and they went on and on about it. Being new, I didn’t understand it backwards and forwards myself, but I finally told them that it was just a footnote, not a huge deal, and that they should give it a rest.

The circuit overseer was to visit our congregation and there was to be a special slide presentation. I invited my friends and gave them to understand that, in view of their giving me nothing but grief about the new faith, if they attended this one meeting I would consider that they had given it a fair shake and would thereafter shut up about it. They came and were shoehorned into a crowded Kingdom Hall. All was going well, and I was happy that they was receiving ‘a witness,’ but toward the end of the presentation a slide displayed the U.N. building rent in two by a lightning bolt from heaven! an image that I had never seen before and do not think I have seen since.

I didn’t entirely keep my end of the bargain, never to speak of it again, but I was more subdued, to be sure.

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1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

slide displayed the U.N. building rent in two by a lightning

Quite graphic. The children's books also had a picture of an earthquake with the earth opening up and building falling in.  

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On 1/18/2020 at 6:28 AM, TrueTomHarley said:

I was always impressed that the wild beast goes into the abyss, then comes out again, and that Knorr seemed to anticipate it.

This claim is about the talk by Knorr in Sept 1942 and the booklet by the same name "Peace - Can It Last?"

Knorr, didn't anticipate it. He knew about the formation of the United Nations because it had already been announced for the past 9 months before the talk. President Roosevelt himself had called it the "United Nations." Knorr even stated in the talk that the name "United Nations" had already been announced by a member of the President's cabinet. Listening to the talk, and reading the booklet, you can see therefore, that this was never a prediction, nor was it presented as a prediction.

It was not spun as a prediction until 1958 when Fred Franz wrote the book "Your Will Be Done On Earth" and this portion implying a prediction was requoted in the 2/1/1960 Watchtower. By July 15, 1960 the claim had become very explicit:

*** w60 7/15 p. 444 par. 19 Staying Awake with the “Faithful and Discreet Slave” ***
. In 1942 the “faithful and discreet slave” guided by Jehovah’s unerring spirit made known that the democracies would win World War II and that there would be a United Nations organization set up. Such wakefulness was concerning events that unerringly took place three years later. At the 1958 Divine Will International Assembly amazing advance information in connection with Daniel’s prophecy was given about events to occur in the immediate future. Such evidence of spiritual foresight is recorded for us in the book “Your Will Be Done on Earth.” Once again the “faithful and discreet slave” has been tipped off ahead of time for the guidance of all lovers of God. Surely one’s present security depends on his staying awake with the “faithful and discreet slave.”

The Watchtower had been predicting that the NON-democracies, the AXIS powers would win WWII, at least up until 9 months before the talk. But then Knorr had also repeated a prior idea that the war would be stopped by treaties with no real winners. Then by the time of the talk, the idea was that the Vatican would compromise but that the win by the Allies would not last long BECAUSE the cry of peace and security after the war would be the immediate end of peace due to Armageddon being triggered. (using 1 Thessallonians 5). Also, this "win" would be declared by the new TOTALITARIAN world order under the totalitarian armies of the UN. The Watchtower was interpreting this situation to support the idea that it would now only be a matter of a very short time for the Kingdom to take over, compared to the length of the war itself. The idea that Armageddon was only MONTHS away, instead of years, was a common theme for the remainder of the war.

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4 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

but toward the end of the presentation a slide displayed the U.N. building rent in two by a lightning bolt from heaven! an image that I had never seen before and do not think I have seen since.,

That was around 1985? The Watchtower ran several Armageddon covers back-to-back that year. The following is from February 1, 1985, p.6.

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Also, a lot more of the artwork turned cartoonish and amateurish between 1982 and 1985, for some reason. I was part of the art deparment from 1976 to 1980 and worked on other projects until 1982, so I had nothing to do with the above. Gotta love magenta lightning and those realistic puffs of smoke, though!

I believe the one you are thinking of was in color and focused more specifically on the UN building. I recall it very similarly, but don't remember if it appeared in a booklet or just where. It wasn't in a Watchtower that I remember.

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1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

the Watchtower had been predicting that the NON-democracies, the AXIS powers would win WWII up until 9 months before the talk

Had it?

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

The idea that Armageddon was only MONTHS away, instead of years, was a common theme for the remainder of the war.

Was it?

9 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

I recall it very similarly, but don't remember if it appeared in a booklet or just where. It wasn't in a Watchtower that I remember.

This one was a slide—a photo. Photoshopped, it was. I think the lightning bolt was a bit hoaky, but the building itself looked genuine—if you allow for it being rent in two. There were no little guys falling out that I recall, nor file cabinets or desks.

10 hours ago, JW Insider said:

You probably know that there are several religions in Christendom that believe we must watch the United Nations for fulfillments of several Bible prophecies and end-time events

I recall the Seventh Day Adventist’s came around to hang a packet on everyone’s door. It was of an erect Jesus knocking on the UN building as your would knock on a door—only he was every bit as tall as the building itself.

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7 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:
8 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Watchtower had been predicting that the NON-democracies. . .  would win WWII up until 9 months before . . .

Had it?

It started mostly in Rutherford's acceptance of conspiratorialist half-truths from some anti-Catholic sources back in 1938. There were strong rumors that the Catholic Church wanted to use the opportunities brought about by the war to control the entire world through a kind of Catholic caliphate. Rutherford could easily tie fascist Italy to the Vatican through Mussolini, and Hitler's concord with the Vatican had already been exposed, too. Communist Russia was not perceived as an "Axis" power of course, as it would become the country that would go on to defeat Hitler almost single-handedly, but joining with the "Allied" powers, to complete it. But he looked to information about how Communist party sources were trying to reach a hand out for peace with the Vatican. And he followed rabid anti-Catholic sources to prove that the Catholic church was looking to rule the entire world.

Therefore, in 1938, in the booklet, "Face the Facts" he predicted that the 'Axis' powers and communists would form a Catholic "combine" to finally take over America and Britain.

When Mussolini marched to Rome to take possession thereof he was an avowed atheist, opposed to God and his kingdom, and would not tolerate anyone who supports God's kingdom or advertises the same. He was then opposed to all religious organizations. But in 1929 Mussolini and the pope, the head of that mighty religious organization, entered into an alliance by which temporal power in Italy was restored to the pope, and Mussolini became a devoted Catholic, and therefore a supporter of religion. Likewise the dictator of the totalitarian rule of Germany has entered into an alliance with the pope, and he is an avowed Catholic and supports the Catholic religion, and protects it within that arbitrary government.
Recently Mr. Forbes, executive secretary of the Communist party, proposed mutual co-operation between Communism and the Roman Catholic Hierarchy in state affairs. In answer thereto the pope, acting through his cardinal and authoritative representative (Verdier), at Paris, made reply to the Communist party in these words: "If this gesture of the outstretched hand from your side expresses the wish to become better acquainted with your Catholic brothers in order to give better respect to the religion which inspires them to their convictions, their feelings, their works, then the church will not refuse to carry out this work of enlightenment and you will recognize that this can contribute greatly to the happiness of all." To such generous offer from the pope the Communist party responded in these words: "The outstretched hand of the Communist party to the Catholic people remains outstretched." (New York Times, July 26, 1938) True, the Catholic Press of America, since the Hierarchy's connection with the Fascists was exposed in Australia, in Seattle, Washington, and in other places, has had much to say about a possible break between the pope and the Fascists. Such publication is merely a political trick to keep the people deceived and in the dark while the Totalitarians march on and seize control of America and England.
The indisputable facts are that the Roman Catholic Hierarchy has stooped wholly to political methods to gain control of the world, and concerning such an honest Catholic of New York has written a book entitled "Rome Stoops to Conquer", and therein submits the proof that Vatican City's chief objective is to rule the world in conjunction with radical powers. The Hierarchy has placed its trusted men in the key positions of political office in practically every nation of the world, which men are first Catholic and, regardless of the just rights of the people, always carry out the will of the Hierarchy in political governmental affairs. These facts, which cannot be disputed, disclose the Roman Catholic Hierarchy's determination to act as a kind of spiritual super-government over the dictators of the world, forming a part of the monstrosity, and which violently opposes Jehovah and his kingdom under Christ Jesus. The monstrosity moves onward! . . .

When the totalitarian Catholic combine gains control of the British Isles, which it is certain to do, then all liberties of the people will be at an end. . . .

The totalitarian combine is going to get control of England and America. You cannot prevent it. Do not try. Your safety is on the Lord's side; but there really will be but a short time that the combine will hold sway, because it is written in the Lord's Word, at 1 Thessalonians 5: 3, that when this crowd says, 'We are now at peace and safety,' the Lord sends sudden destruction upon them, and they are at their wits' end, and they shall find no way of escape.

Rutherford spoke of Armageddon coming against a world of totalitarian nations, and this is what he meant. The totalitarian combine would have already taken over England and America when Armageddon arrives. The nearness of this time was expressed in many ways. One of them, in the same booklet, echoed the Millions campaign, which was NOT just about the great crowd, but about the world in general. This time it was more specifically about the "great crowd" [Jonadabs]. The doctrine had changed so that ONLY the Jonadabs would survive Armageddon.

Would it be Scripturally proper for them to now marry and to begin to rear children? No, is the answer, which is supported by the Scriptures. Referring to the prophetic picture: Noah's sons and their wives had no children before or during the flood, and none were born of them until after the flood was dried up, and the record is that it was two years after the flood before children born are mentioned.. . . Those Jonadabs who now contemplate marriage, it would seem, would do better if they wait a few years, until the fiery storm of Armageddon is gone,. . . The only ones who will survive Armageddon will be God's faithful children . . . . .The kingdom is here, and certain and complete victory will crown the King, Christ Jesus, and those who stand with him. The earth is to be filled with a righteous people, and those faithful Jonadabs now living shall not die, but shall have a part in the performance or work of populating the earth with righteous people, and all these things to the eternal praise of Jehovah and the vindication of his name.

Since 1935, Rutherford had been saying that we were in the time "immediately" before Armageddon, and that it would therefore NOT be scriptural to get married and have children either immediately before or immediately after Armageddon. That this meant a matter of only "months" had been made clear, too. This next quote is from the booklet and talk "Universal War Near" from 1935

. . . during the few remaining months until the breaking of that universal cataclysm the powers that rule the nations of the earth will continue to make treaties and tell the people that by such means they will keep that world peace and bring about prosperity. (Universal War Near, 1935, p. 3, 26-27)

For a few years, the idea had been that there would be NO winners of a war before Armageddon, because nations would keep a tentative peace through treaties until Armageddon broke out. But this had changed by 1938 (above) and by December 1941 the idea that the totalitarian (axis) powers would win had been around for about three years. But only in December 1941 had the idea been added that the totalitarian, axis powers (the Catholic Vatican Nazi Fascist combine) had managed to take over Belgium, France, and others, but would be ready to compromise and therefore not gain full control of America and Britain, but would manage their "win" through the taking away of freedoms.

You'll notice too that the idea of a "new League of Nations" was already in quotes from secular sources.

[December 1, 1941 Watchtower, p.357-362]

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It was no longer a full "military" victory to be expected by the king of the north. But the king of the north would be the one to extend its rule over all the nations of the earth.

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Note that Rutherford concludes the article the same way. He hasn't really given up on the idea that that totalitarian (Axis) rule would still overrun all the nations of the earth.

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Only if the totalitarian rule would overrun all the nations of the earth would it be possible for the cry of Peace and Security to come from the "king of the north" rather than the "king of the south." Therefore, it was earlier in the same article where this had been stated (more than once):

image.png

 

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2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:
4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

The idea that Armageddon was only MONTHS away, instead of years, was a common theme for the remainder of the war.

Was it?

That was partially answered in the previous post. But there were more quotes of course.

The first is from the Watchtower, September 15, 1941, p. 288

Receiving the gift, the marching children clasped it to them, not a toy or plaything for idle pleasure, but the Lord's provided instrument for most effective work in the remaining months before Armageddon.

Sometimes it was even a matter of "days." The following is from Consolation (lka, Awake!) April 27, 1942, p. 13

Proof is now submitted that we are now living at the end of the days, and we may expect to see Daniel and the other mentioned princes any day now!

And the following was already quoted from "Universal War Near," 1935:

. . . during the few remaining months until the breaking of that universal cataclysm the powers that rule the nations of the earth will continue to make treaties and tell the people that by such means they will keep that world peace and bring about prosperity.

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12 hours ago, Arauna said:

Most churches think the mark of the beast is computer chips and AI chips which we all soon may have to wear to make financial transactions- which will be part of surveillance. 

Can't they be right on that? They are after all spreading Bibles? That also speaks against the idea that they are Babylon the Great. Could they just be those about whom Jesus said, who will say: Lord, Lord, did we not prophecy in your name?

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13 minutes ago, Kosonen said:

Jesus said, who will say: Lord, Lord, did we not prophecy in your name?

I kinda agree with you on that.  The surveillance system of China is now the model for the UN..... they are planning it for the West.  They will use it to see what you say about the government and what you do. Your financial transactions will be visible and your money can disappear overnight if they do not like you. This is already happening in China.  Read up about it.

But as I said, these Christian's still trust the political system  to solve problems.... by this time they will have given their support for it  etc.... they will have the mark of the political system. 

Just keep in mind.... even if we know what they are planning - it is still speculation on our part. We know that the world empire if false religion is working with UN at present to bring a united religion . People are all putting faith in these institutions to solve problems and bring peace.  UN and its coalition will start to rule and turn against its bedfellows -  then the UN and the world system will become so oppressive that no life will be saved if jehovah does not step in.  

Russia and China is also in the mix - Daniel 11:40 onward. 

It may happen differently..... but part of the scene is set.  It can take until 2030.... this is the time-frame the UN set for itself called Agenda 2030.... or it could suddenly escalate because jehovah will put it in mind of UN to turn against religion much faster.

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@Arauna 

10 hours ago, Arauna said:

It may happen differently..... but part of the scene is set.  It can take until 2030.... this is the time-frame the UN set for itself called Agenda 2030.... or it could suddenly escalate because jehovah will put it in mind of UN to turn against religion much faster.

There is a possibility that it will begin very soon. Because Donald Trump has said he will pull out troops from Syria. Well he has promised, but yet not fulfilled. But this fit Daniel 11:29“At the time appointed he (USA) will return and come against the south. (Syria) But this time will not be as it was before, 30  for the ships of Kitʹtim+ will come against him, and he will be humbled.“He will go back (Pull back troops from Syria) and hurl denunciations* against the holy covenant+ and act effectively; and he will go back and will give attention to those leaving the holy covenant. 31  And arms* will stand up, proceeding from him; and they will profane the sanctuary,+ the fortress, and remove the constant feature.*+“And they will put in place the disgusting thing that causes desolation.+

Then in Daniel 12:11 we get the information that gives a time line from the event above: And from the time that the constant feature*+ has been removed and the disgusting thing that causes desolation has been put in place,+ there will be 1,290 days.12  “Happy is the one who keeps in expectation*and who arrives at the 1,335 days!

The "disgusting thing " can hardly be Ligue of Nations or UN. The "disgusting thing" should be some kind of idol. It is the same as the image of the beast, which should represent an idol for worship of the beast. In the first case, in the first fulfillment as explained in the WT the "disgusting thing" were the Roman idolatrous standards. 

So I expect that the headquarters of Jehovah's witnesses will be defiled by a symbol of a beast. And that will mark the begining of the 3 and half years. 

An other thing that speaks against the idea that Babylon the Great is religions in  general is the "man of lawlessness". The Bible says that Jesus himself will kill him with his spirit from his mouth. 2 Thessalonians 2:8. But as we know God will instead use UN to destroy Babylon the Great. 

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15 hours ago, Arauna said:

I think the word you meant was genealogy.

No that was Paul who said not to argue about genealogy (which was the primary source of Hebrew Scripture chronology).

Jesus counsel to the disciples was not to concern themselves with chronology. The exact term was "times and seasons," as in when Jesus said, 

Acts 1:7 He said to them: “It does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction.

Paul agreed when he said:

(1 Thessalonians 5:1) . . .Now as for the times and the seasons, brothers, you need nothing to be written to you.

15 hours ago, Arauna said:

The genealogy is important to know. Why did god then insert it in the bible?

Genealogies became the historical calendar the Jews used. We use dates that tell us how many years a date was from the time of Jesus' birth (both before and after). Apparently, the Jews didn't need these types of distant historical dates very often, but if necessary, they had enough information to know approximately how far they were in the stream of time since Adam, or since any particular patriarch or king. Also, of course, there were some prophecies, too, that were time-based long BEFORE Jesus said that the future parousia would be as if a complete sudden surprise, like a lightning flash, or like the sudden destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.

15 hours ago, Arauna said:

This refers to the fact that the bible promised a future king. Jesus was not yet king while on the torture stake.

So far, in several years of bringing up this topic, everyone has always picked the easy ones to defend against. But that verse was mostly included to show that the prevailing view among Jews was that Messiah (Christ) was a synonym for "King." There was never a need to say Christ is King, because that was redundant, like saying "The Messianic King is a King!" This means that every reference to Jesus as the "Christ" was the same as saying "Anointed Messianic King." This is what adds so much meaning to Peter's statement at Pentecost, shortly after Jesus was resurrected:

(Acts 2:30-36) . . .Because he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath that he would seat one of his offspring on his throne, 31 he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that neither was he forsaken in the Grave nor did his flesh see corruption. 32 God resurrected this Jesus, and of this we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore, because he was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised holy spirit from the Father, he has poured out what you see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand 35 until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”’ 36 Therefore, let all the house of Israel know for a certainty that God made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you executed on a stake.”

(Hebrews 1:2-8) . . .Now at the end of these days [Greek: Now, in the last days] he has spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, . . . And after he had made a purification for our sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. 4 So he has become better than the angels to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs. . . .  8 But about the Son, he says: “God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness.

(Hebrews 8:1) . . .We have such a high priest as this, [after the order of Melchizedek who was both king and priest] and he has sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,

We are in the awkward position of explaining how a person could be holding the scepter of his Kingdom, yet not be a king.

Our tradition forces us to argue against only a few scriptures that indicate that Jesus was a "king" explicitly. But to be complete we should also argue against every time the term "Christ" is used.

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15 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Also, this "win" would be declared by the new TOTALITARIAN world order under the totalitarian armies of the UN. Th

Interesting - they had pinpointed the UN at that time.....because it is now getting significantly important in the present time.  It (un) may even now go in abyss and come up with a new name. All I know is that UN Agenda 2030 cannot work unless they do eventually control policy in the West in a totalitarian way and work with the Chinese/Russian block of alliances to  be able to declare "peace and security".  They will have surveillance to control people - the way China is now implementing and refining it.

The  UN and EU like the Chinese model and Google and other digital companies etc is totally cooperating. Google and the other 6 news agencies in the West is already censoring and cutting out news which is not acceptable (following UN agreements as well as EU agreements) .   Similar to a police state - we are only getting the propaganda they want us to see.....even in USA - the real issues and the decisions which are made do not get coverage.  Very little investigative reporting - news for the masses.

The ongoing acrimonious theater between the globalists (social warriors who follow the post modern philosophy- clay)  and nationalists (populist who think in conservative patriarchal way and want to maintain borders- iron) is real. It is a last stand against the UN global agenda.

The children at school and university students have already been indoctrinated to think about  "unity in the world" - which by the way - is a wonderful idea if it was not used by UN atheists to further the UN agenda. Most of the youth remind me of the bolchevists when they say all "patriarchy" must be removed by any means and all minorities must get special rights.  In 5 years the world will be a different place when the next lot get to vote..... if it happens....

America must lose its economic power for UN to dictate........ and this is what is going on. Social unrest is being stoked by big money in US from muslim countries and other billionaire's  foundations (billionaires who have bought into the utopian idea of UN to unify the world and distribute wealth - so all humans can be happy.)  And the weakening of the dollar is ongoing (FED doing unprecedented things- ). While the economy is touted to look good it is crumbling. Stocks look good... but this is kept artificially high. 

The Babylon the Great saga (Rev 17 & 18) plays out when the eighth king (last king) gets power for a short while and Babylon is destroyed by her political lovers. Thereafter the economy collapses. It is the final and global ending of human control over the earth during Armageddon. 

The 3 sectors which need to be removed for this to happen is: all religion, all money, all human governments.

The first time Babylon is mentioned it is in connection with building of the tower (ziggurats) to false religion (read up about ziggurats) and establishing the first empire.  Jehovah confused their languages - hence the name Bavylon- confusion.. The second time Babylon is mentioned it refers to the second empire which had its waters dried up and it fell to the persians in one night. 

Babylon the Great is one of the three sectors above. The "beasts" depict the world governments one after another and the financial sector is called merchants who trade with ships (go far and wide), and Babylon the Great is the harlot (in the bible a harlot always symbolically refers to unfaithful religion).

Rome (while it symbolises an influential part of false religion - and the most despicable part to Jehovah  because it has failed to teach the truth about the bible and His name) is politically taking the initiative to bring about the UN agenda together with other religious leaders of "abrahamic faiths ".  Canada and Europe are mostly secular so they will welcome one religion idea.  When Muslims see Christian's adopting this idea and dropping Jesus, they will be happy because they are one step closer to achieving their goal of religious supremacy on earth... Jews are being slowly displaced because of violent attacks on them and many in Europe are emigrating to israel.

This how it may play out: there will be a false religious/ moral unity which all westerners will be expected to approve of ......to get the UN agenda in place. (UN rules regarding gender, Islam etc will be installed.) 

When this is completed the churches will no longer be needed - surveillance and pressure on peoples (similar to China) will take over to maintain law and order- a false "peace and security" for all.  This is already working in China which now has little crime due to a penalty and surveillance system. They are refining it as we speak. 

The UN agenda 21 wants most people living in cities as soon as possible (to preserve, water, food, land, animals etc. - they will ration food). They want to protect the environment.  The environment is more important than people.  On local level in USA, the NGOs have already changed environmental  laws. .... to make it hard for people to build in rural areas.

In cities people can be easily controlled and surveilled.

Religion is starting to play it's part in UN agenda.  UN agenda is a reality.  This is why I think they are succeeding.  Their plans are being done in stealth mode....and they do not need money. It is coming from billionaires who own the corporations which will provide the food, water, surveillance etc for the new utopia. It is so surrealist one cannot believe it is true but they have been working on this intensely since the time of George Bush. 

I will read your other replies when I get back from field service and meeting - then reply and chat further. I see Daniel 11 is now in discussion- I will give my thoughts

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23 hours ago, Arauna said:

This refers to the fact that the bible promised a future king. Jesus was not yet king while on the torture stake.

Apologize for little late comment about question when Jesus come to be King.

WT Society agreed how Jesus became King in 33 AD. And his enthroning took literal manifestation in Jerusalem. Is it possible that Jesus became King without Heavenly approval? Well, could he become King on Earth but not in Heaven too?   

The disciples fail to see that Jesus’ instructions involve Bible prophecy. Later, however, they grasp the fulfillment of Zechariah’s prophecy. He foretold that God’s promised King would come into Jerusalem “humble and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a female donkey.”—Zechariah 9:9. - 

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It seems how WT GB also failed in interpretation about when Jesus became King. In 33 or in 1914 AD despite their own published books that supports 33 AD. More than this, and his Kingdom was also existed in 33 AD on Earth. Quote from WT publication said: In a very real sense, then, the Kingdom was in their midst.

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The King Enters Jerusalem on a Colt

When they got close to Jerusalem and arrived at Bethʹpha·ge on the Mount of Olives,a then Jesus sent two disciples,b 2  saying to them: “Go into the village that is within sight, and you will at once find a donkey tied and a colt with her. Untie them and bring them to me. 3  If someone says anything to you, you must say, ‘The Lord needs them.’ At that he will immediately send them.”4  This actually took place to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet, who said: 5  “Tell the daughter of Zion: ‘Look! Your king is coming to you,c mild-temperedd and mounted on a donkey, yes, on a colt, the offspring of a beast of burden.’”e6  So the disciples went and did just as Jesus had instructed them.f 7  They brought the donkey and its colt, and they put their outer garments on them, and he sat on them.g 8  Most of the crowd spread their outer garments on the road,h while others were cutting down branches from the trees and spreading them on the road. 9  Moreover, the crowds going ahead of him and those following him kept shouting: “Save, we pray, the Son of David!i Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovah’s name!j Save him, we pray, in the heights above!”* - Matt 21

As Jesus rides into Jerusalem on a donkey, the crowd hails him as King

PICTURE from WT book -   

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In rendering these words of Jesus, a number of careful Bible translations use wording similar to that found in the New World Translation. Some say that the Kingdom is “among you” or “in the midst of you.” How was God’s Kingdom among those people at that time, including the Pharisees? Well, Jesus was the one whom Jehovah God appointed to be the King of the Kingdom. As the King-Designate, Jesus was right in the midst of those people. He taught about the Kingdom of God and even performed miracles, giving them a preview of what that Kingdom would accomplish. In a very real sense, then, the Kingdom was in their midst.

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As I remember WT organization teaches that God's kingdom was "born" in 1914 based on Revelation 12: "So down the great dragon+ was hurled, the original serpent,+ the one called Devil+ and Satan,+ who is misleading the entire inhabited earth;+ he was hurled down to the earth,+ and his angels were hurled down with him. 10  I heard a loud voice in heaven say:“Now have come to pass the salvation+ and the power and the Kingdom of our God+ and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God!+"

So here I have just recently remarked yet an other discrepancy. The WT teaches that Satan was not exactly in 1914 hurled down to earth, but around 1918 if I remember right. That is because some other calculations with 1260 days and events with WT society, did not start happening in 1914. 

This in itself throws doubt on the whole idea about 1914. 

It really looks like the WT organization by force tried to fit prophecies to events and dates too early before their right time. The events just do not fit the prophecies in many ways. 

 

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7 hours ago, Arauna said:

Interesting - they had pinpointed the UN at that time.....because it is now getting significantly important in the present time.  It (un) may even now go in abyss and come up with a new name. All I know is that UN Agenda 2030 cannot work unless they do eventually control policy in the West in a totalitarian way and work with the Chinese/Russian block of alliances . . .

There is always some truth in half-truths, and conspiracy theorists always deal in half-truths. I have usually found, or I should say "always found" that whenever I hear about the dangers of a certain UN initiative, that the person promoting the theory is often virtually unacquainted with the original documents, and is getting their information from another place, rather than the UN source.

I think that any human organization can be dangerous, even inadvertently. People make stupid and dangerous decisions without thinking of consequences. It happens all the more with persons of influence and power who make dangerous decisions, sometimes on purpose, and sometimes while trying to do the right thing. So I'm not at all surprised about bad things coming out of the UN, NATO, the EU, the White House, Russia, China, etc.

And I'm not surprised that persons, even Rutherford, in 1918 on up through 1940, '41, '42, '43, '44, '45, etc., also held conspiratorial views of the League of Nations and the UN, and that these views influenced some of those extremely inaccurate predictions about them. Inaccurate predictions about them are found in the Watch Tower publications and also on the pages of many other religions and political, secular organizations, too.  

Initially, of course, the Watchtower praised the League of Nations, as if it were some sort of political expression of God's kingdom on earth, just as Rutherford initially praised Hitler's Nazi government as if it were some sort of political expression of God's kingdom on earth. Of course, in neither case did this view last very long, and it was never expressed as if these two political expressions (the League and Hitler) could ever be looked upon as any kind of replacement of God's kingdom. 

I doubt that this site is very accurate, but I agree with much of what is said on this wikipedia-style article at

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It includes among its member nations not only parliamentary

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, but also
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abusers mainly concerned with their own power. Because unanimity among the Big 5 (the
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,
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,
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,
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and
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) is needed for any action involving the Security Council, things rarely get done, and UN sanctions can be pretty much ignored by all nations great and small. That's okay, though, since the countries like the US that are meant to fund it systematically starve it of funding, so the UN can't do much anyway.
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On some small scale activities, it can do some good, but any attempts at actual peace-keeping usually fall apart. What should then be a cause for peace and brotherhood instead just becomes another bureaucratic nightmare.

. . .

The UN and conspiracy theories

As an international body, the UN has predictably attracted the attention of

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. Due to
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' dislike of the institution, the conspiracy theories tend to come from the far-right
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camp, although said theories often cross over into the
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as well.

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UN conspiracism grew out of the Paris Peace Conference at the end of the

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as liberal
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like
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pushed for an international body that would promote global peace and national self-determination. Opponents of the plan, most notably Wilson's nemesis Sen. Henry Cabot Lodge (
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-
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), argued that joining the
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would cause the US to become entangled in malignant international politics, that the US might have to commit troops to wars it didn't want to fight, and that the League would infringe on national sovereignty.
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Despite the fact that the US ultimately failed to join the League of Nations — and that its failure was one of the major causes of
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— conspiracy theories about
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began to spring up in fringe circles. Often, these were vague murmurings about shadowy international dealings, though some conspiracy theories began to take on
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overtones.
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, for example, alleged that the League was a
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to prosecute a "
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" against the US.

As a side note: One of the few positive things that the League of Nations accomplished was issuing "Nansen Passports," the first internationally recognized form of Refugee Documents for stateless people.

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Formation of the UN

Conspiratorial themes about the League of Nations transferred over to the newly formed United Nations during the

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. The
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(JBS) was (and still is) most famous for pushing conspiracy theories about the UN being a front for a
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world take-over. The JBS also implicated the UN in plotting to institute
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to supplant
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. This was to be done through subtle means, such as a "
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" in which religious Christmas decorations would be replaced by UN iconography.
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The New World Order and other current theories

Current conspiracy theories about the UN usually portray it as the heart of an alleged "

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" (NWO), or at least implicate it as a major player in said Order. The UN effectively acts as a Rorschach test for political
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to project their
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onto. Some more recent conspiratorial notions include:

  • The UN is in cahoots with [insert favored bogeyman here]. (Popular choices include the

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    , the NWO,
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    ,
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    , "
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    ",
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    -
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    ,
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    , the
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    ,
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    ,
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    , Them, etc.).

  • The idea of the UN instituting a world religion or the UN being a vehicle for the

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    has become a common trope among the
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    set.
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    was fond of this one.
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    This idea is also shared to some extent by
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    , who consider UN to be the "image of a wild beast" from
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    13 and the "disgusting thing that causes desolation" mentioned in
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    , which will soon act to destroy all other religions, and finally turn against JWs. The UN has also been accused of being the Harlot being described as "Sitting atop the Nations, Multitudes, Languages, and Tongues" (sitting atop the tongues, what an image!).

  • The UN has launched smaller projects such as the "

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    " to gradually erase national borders.

  • After the fall of the

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    , the UN increasingly became the target of
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    conspiracy theories, primarily the notion of a
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    using
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    as a cover. This is due to the UN's institution of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) to produce
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    reports on climate change. Conspiracies vary from the "softer" side (the UN is simply cooking the books to enrich itself) to the extremely alarmist (the UN is angling for world domination via alleged "
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    " and the machinations of
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    ). Another element in this view is that the
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    after the fall of the USSR and are now using the UN as a tool via environmental policy.
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    is a proponent of this theory.
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    , the most recent UN-related conspiracy theory, also centers on a non-binding environmental agreement. If you want to know more,
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    wrote the book.
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  • Mix the second and the fourth conspiracies and you get the idea that the UN is attempting to enforce a global

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    -worshiping
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    where everyone is forced to sing the praises of
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    .
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    This one, at least, could provide some amusement if it were true.

  • Sometimes related to the environmental conspiracy theories (usually

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    ) is the idea that concern about
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    is being used as a scare tactic to lay the groundwork for a
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    or
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    scheme to kill off the "
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    ." As if the world's population isn't currently growing at an alarming rate.

  • The UN is under the control of

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    /
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    states and attempting to (a) enable
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    , (b) usher in the "
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    ", (c) subtly insert
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    into the American legal system, or (d) all of the above.
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  • The UN Arms Trade Treaty is an attempt of an "end run" around the

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    to
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    . Just guess the factual accuracy of that one.
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  • Left-ish circles have their own conspiracy theories. Most common is the claim is that the UN is merely the pawn of the

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    and its
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    schemes. This sometimes plays into fears about globalization (WTO, duh).
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    This seems to ignore the complete antipathy to the UN and other international organizations that some US administrations have shown in the past.
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    The
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    also demonstrated that the US doesn't need no stinkin' UN to carry out imperialistic schemes.

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