Revelation: Babylon the Great, etc.

[Arauna]

12 hours ago, JW Insider said:

If Rome represents "the world," the same world that

From the time after the flood - humans were given a clean slate.  They went back to false religion soon after on a massive scale. So bad - the entire world was divided and jehovah stepped in.  They went against his instructions to not spread out and stayed together to build cities and make war on each other. This is why Babilon the Great is a fitting description of false religion....... it takes us back to the progenitor - the mother city. 

There are only 3 major sectors in this world of Satan which jehovah has to remove to clean the planet up. Religion, Commercial and  governmental.    The beasts represent the world empires one after another,  the merchants and ships who cry represent the financial sector and religion is the spirirual harlot.

9 hours ago, Kosonen said:

say it is a "great city".

If you know the ancient history of ancient Babylon, you will know it was a religious center for almost 2 millennia. ...... and its influence on religion today is powerful.  Most pagan teachings in churches and religions today  originated from there. 

Can you imagine the shock when Babylon 's bedfellows turn against her?  They think she is a queen and nothing will happen to her, she has great wealth and is foundation of society....... she has great influence.  She rides the beast.  (Right now the Pope is making alliance with leader of Judaism and Islam to acknowledge only one God- in line with UN wishes......... but like a harlot she is leaving the randsom sacrifice and name of christ out of the agreement. )

In Russia, orthodox religion is used at present to build nationalism, and in the past, religious pastors went to war with soldiers to give shepherding support. This incestuous relationship between religion and politics will break up and will cause major upheaval.  It will cause major financial concern as indicated in the quoted scripture above. 

This is why jehovah says: get out of her my people!  Rev 18:4. 

[Kosonen]

@JW Insider  Thanks, I agree that it is a good idea to have a separate thread for Babylon the Great.

I want just quickly again add some thoughts to who or what Babylon the Great is.

I agree with the WT that the beast upon which Babylon the Great rides is UN. So that means that Babylon the Great is in control of UN as its rider currently. 

So then we have to think about who is in control of UN? Naturally the architects behind UN are in control of UN. So that group of people should be Babylon the Great. 

By doing some research we can determine that they mostly if not all were from New York. So then Babylon the Great is not only those people but the city they live in and from where they project their power. And we know that UN's headquarters are in New York.

We have now seen that the Bible says it is "a great city", and a city with great wealth and power and influence both political, economical and "cultural", and a costal city.

All those aspects fit New York. 

[Arauna]

I have written some comments on here but noticed that the icon for someone to answer me has been removed. Does this mean that no-one can see my comments? 

 

9 hours ago, Kosonen said:

So that means that Babylon the Great is in control of UN as its rider currently. 

Steering the beast in a direction means to ride it  Yes, the Pope is busy making agreements with Islam and Judaism for one world religion...... so far  This is in line with UN agenda.  They will acknowledge that there is only one God whether his name is Allah, lord, jehovah  etc.  Jesus as randsom giver is not acknowledged because this is controversial.

They (the abrahamic religions) will build a complex of buildings for worship together in Abu Dahbi.   (UN or "image of the beast" is a coalition of countries who want to bring peace and security to this world by trying to unite everyone under one moral code in which everyone is accepted - no matter if you are a man loving one of the 57 genders.  They want to create a better world by removing borders and mixing all cultures. In addition they want to control all food, water, property, weapons, money - so as to make sure all receive equal material stuff....... I can go on about the idea to save the earth etc

While this sounds absolutely wonderful it is inspired by satan. Can it work?  Yes, until they call out peace and security and force all to accept one world religion.  

It may play out a little differently to this scenario above because unexpected things always enter the world stage..... but 176 nations have already signed UN agreements.  They are already ruling underneath other governments because their "image" of the world is being promoted as we speak.  NGOs and foreign money has already taken over local governments in USA, school curriculum and universities.  "Foundations" of the extremely rich are steering the world in UN direction because they honestly have bought into the idea - being atheists.  Europe is the same. 

 

[Kosonen]

@Arauna I can read your posts. They are visible as before. I have just not commented your arguments. I don't want to dispute. And the matter with Babylon the Great is not yet so evident. Because the execution of God's servants, especially the anointed has not yet begun which will be lead by Babylon the Great. There will come a period of about 3 and half years. Only after that Babylon the Great will be destroyed. 

[Arauna]

7 hours ago, Kosonen said:

I don't want to dispute

Thanks for reply. Same here. I agree. Iron sharpens iron.... I like that.

I just read through Revelation 17 and 18 again and did not read anything about 3 and half years - I just had to make sure -again.  You mentioned this period where Christian's will be killed.

  The UN is already ruling like an image beneath everything.  10 kings have already willingly given over their autonomy (all in EU have) and they are included in the 176 nations who signed the agreements to bring one world order.

We are already in this time but most people are not aware. Religion is riding like a queen with these new agreements they are making in line with UN policy....to try for one world religion. Recently there was outrage in catholic circles because the Pope had south American native indian gods in the Vatican as part of the ceremonies during these pre-agreement meetings. By the way the religion of UN is theosophy and Bahai.... both have temple space in UN building.  Theosophy is a spiritistic religion and bahai believes all religions lead to God. Eleanor Roseveldt recited theosophy crede when UN was created.

Since Babylon the Great includes all false religion, I would historically equate drunken bloodshed to her....... Muslim wars, hindu/Muslim wars, the inquisition, crusades etc...... BUT  since Jesus has started ruling we have seen Christian fighting Christian in wars and Muslim genocides as well.  Muslim killing Muslim at present in Yemen with young children starving a slow death in horrific ways. Armenian genocide of Christian's comes to mind.  They were genocided only for being Christian.

However, in the past recent years I have been watching jihad murders all over the world and there is at present an extermination specifically of Christian's going on in north Africa and middle east. They are targeted by fellow citizens for being christian.  Absolutely nothing in the western news. As a matter of fact UK and Canada have denied Christian's entry because they were Christian. 

I have tried to make sense of this excessive killing myself to be able to deal with the sheer numbers and suffering going on.  I feel these Christian's  stay loyal to christ and refuse to give up their faith under pressure of death even while they do NOT understand the truth of the bible as they should.  Jehovah is righteous and just........ he is the great compensator and under his future government these persons will get a resurrection.  

I am almost sure we will see great governmental, financial and religious upheavals in the next three years - things can suddenly start to change rapidly. unprecedented changes and people will start to get faint out of fear....... but will they turn to jehovah? No. 

The environmental issues are also becoming more prevalent. The biosphere issues are coming to a head ...... we are close...... how close we do not know ..... but there are too many signs one cannot ignore.  

[JW Insider]

On 1/10/2020 at 3:53 PM, Kosonen said:

But now recently as we all know they have moved out of that costal city. That is a good move because today's Babylon the Great will be sunk into the see, but first burned.

It seems that you believe that the Watchtower Society, or perhaps the Governing Body, representing Jehovah's Witnesses, have already followed the advice of Revelation 18:4 to 'Get out of Babylon the Great.' This happens sometime between the time when the angels say that Babylon has fallen, and before she is burned, and the rest of the world mourns for her from a distance.

We currently teach that Babylon the Great took God's people captive beginning in about the year 100 CE, and that Babylon fell in 1919 CE. But that she will be completely destroyed during the time of the Great Tribulation/Armageddon.

You must think that the Society and/or GB have made this move out of New York City without being fully conscious of Jehovah's leading in this matter. I say this partly because, while they themselves got out of of Babylon the Great, they did not ask all other Witnesses to get out of Babylon the Great (BtG) before it burns and sinks.

Of course, you might say that there is no need for other Witnesses to leave NYC, because when it's time for BtG to burn and sink, Jehovah can and will protect his people. Of course, this implies that Jehovah can protect individuals, but not an organization, or not the individuals in the GB. Then again, you might be implying that it was the temptation to share with her in her sins that made it more important for the WTS/GB to get out of the Great City (NYC), so that they would not be tempted to get involved with the UN in that same city, for example. Perhaps the temptations on the WTS were somehow greater than the same temptations of the Great City on congregations or individual Witnesses.

I see this potential contradiction as a hole in your theory.

Looking forward to your explanation.

[Arauna]

When we read Matthew 13: 24 onwards (the illustration of the weeds and the wheat) we can see what happened to start the Christian part of Babylon the Great.

Satan sowed wicked seeds amongst the wheat.  People in the congregation contaminated the congregation with wicked philosophies and practices. Many of these ideas came in from the Greek and Roman philosophies (which were contaminated by ancient Babylonian ideas).

The apostles held these pagan and wicked influences back (but after apostle John died -about 100 CE - ) these pagan ideas later became entrenched and even  later institutionalized  in the powerful churches. 

Today most witnesses give up their memberships in other religions - be it Hindu, Islam, christendom etc. They get out of Babylon the Great as individuals.  They are then known as Witnesses of Jehovah. They also do not participate or take sides in any political parties, political issues or any form of nationalistic events. We do not pay homage to national symbols/national days or go to war.  These are practices which are an identifying part of Babylon the Great 's harlotry...... the harlotry with the political systems (kings) of the world. Rev 17: 1-3.

Since the beasts in Daniel depict four succeeding world powers (2 are identified in Daniel 8 as Medea-Persia and Greece)  the beast in Revelation 13 depicts the world political system.  The beast in Rev 13 has all the combined features of the 4 beasts (empires) mentioned in Daniel 7 & 8. 

So how does this fit in with Babylon the Great?  Religion which rides (influences) the beast (UN and conglomerate) or commits fornication with the kings of the earth,  is doomed.  If one gets the mark of the beast with seven heads or the image of the beast you will be a spiritual harlot.  There are only two sides:  loyalty to the future kingdom government of jehovah God OR  loyalty by your actions of mind and hand (slaves were marked on the head or hand)  to earthly governments.

JWs believe that only the future government of God can solve all of the world's problems and therefore believe that only this government can bring true peace and security to the globe.  Other religions still put faith in humans governments to keep peace and security and will believe the human governments when they say they have achieved "peace and security" before the start of Armageddon.

1 tess 5: Jehovah’s day is coming exactly as a thief in the night.  3 Whenever it is that they are saying, “Peace and security!” then sudden destruction is to be instantly on them, just like birth pains on a pregnant woman, and they will by no means escape.  4 But you, brothers, you are not in darkness, so that the day should overtake you as it would thieves,  

 

On 1/12/2020 at 3:10 PM, Kosonen said:

All those aspects fit New York. 

Since we are dealing with a world political system, a worldwide religious and financial  system which is not according to gods wish for mankind - the bible indicates all three will be destroyed at Armageddon-  we must be careful to not attribute regional fulfillments to these proohecies.   It is events that will happen on global scale because satan is the ruler of the entire globe. He is behind all false religion, all bad and oppressive human governments and the financial system. 

[TrueTomHarley]

On 1/12/2020 at 3:15 PM, Arauna said:

have written some comments on here but noticed that the icon for someone to answer me has been removed

Not sure if the following accounts for your problem, but this forum is divided into ‘clubs.’ This club here is the JW open club. There is also a JW closed club. You must physically join a club to have commenting privileges in it. If you have trouble, check the thread’s banner to see if you are in a different club.

[Anna]

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Not sure if the following accounts for your problem, but this forum is divided into ‘clubs.’ This club here is the JW open club. There is also a JW closed club. You must physically join a club to have commenting privileges in it. If you have trouble, check the thread’s banner to see if you are in a different club.

It must be working since you just answered her 😂

[Kosonen]

On 1/13/2020 at 6:44 AM, Arauna said:

I just read through Revelation 17 and 18 again and did not read anything about 3 and half years - I just had to make sure -again.  You mentioned this period where Christian's will be killed. 

That's right. Because very shortly after the end of the 3 and half years Babylon the Great is destroyed. And the book of Daniel in the Bible, chapters 7,11,12 and Revelation 11,12 and 13 describe the persecution that will be devastating during those final 3 and half years leading right up to the destruction of Babylon the Great.

Sadly the WT organization does not take the warning seriously because they teach those those prophecies do not apply on anything coming in a near future. Because they teach those prophecies got their fulfilment already about 100 years ago.

The Revelation tells that many will be killed for refusing to worship the beast or refusing to take the mark of the beast. 

@JW Insider I don't think the GB connects Babylon the Great to New York. But if I remember right I have heard that they thought it was best to leave New York after the hurrican Sandy struck New York in 2012, with prolonged power outages and flooding.

But I believe Jehovah God has influenced them to take this decision, despite them not understanding that Babylon the Great is New York. Hopefully someone will be able to explain this prophecy about Babylon the Great and New York to the brothers and sister living there. But untill the destruction of Babylon the Great there will be a minimun 3 and half years. That is the prophetic special time period in end time according to prophecies in the Bible. Unfortunately WT organization does not take seriously the warnings about the persecutions that will happen during that time because they teach that the 3 and half years prophetic time period belong to the past, to something that happened 100 years ago.

But there is no need for panic. The destruction of Babylon the Great is still at least 3 and half year away. Because the 3 and half years have not yet started.

 

[JW Insider]

17 hours ago, Kosonen said:

@JW Insider I don't think the GB connects Babylon the Great to New York. But if I remember right I have heard that they thought it was best to leave New York after the hurrican Sandy struck New York in 2012, with prolonged power outages and flooding. But I believe Jehovah God has influenced them to take this decision, despite them not understanding that Babylon the Great is New York.

The hurricane, yes, and probably 9-11, too. A friend of mine who left Bethel shortly after 9/11/2001 thought that several of the Governing Body must have been thinking of leaving shortly after the WTC towers fell. He said there was fear in their voices, and a lot more closed-door, "bunker" mentality. I worked in Manhattan (at 30 Rockefeller Plaza) for many years before, during and after the 9-11 event, and there was a similar prevailing fear all over the city. Immediately, you could no longer use most of the extended underground tunnels that very few people knew about around midtown. You could no longer walk through (or under) buildings that had a door you could enter on one block and then out on the next block. Connected with the underground shopping concourses around Rockefeller Center, I could sometimes walk through 5 or 6 of 10 blocks underground, and 3 more blocks through the buildings so that.I would miss any rain or snow or pedestrian traffic. 

Hundreds of companies, including my own, looked for office space place in upstate NY, moved data centers outside the vicinity and began immediately moving more personnel and offices to NJ and upstate NY along with new or expanded offices in Atlanta, Charlotte, Chicago, etc. I ended up spending a lot of time in 'Warwick' (Tuxedo Park) just across from where the Watchtower offices are now located, because that's where we worked out our disaster recovery (DR/BC) plans for all our IT data centers. The WT wasn't there at the time, and I refer to the company that had an upstate HQ at the other end of the same lake.

17 hours ago, Kosonen said:

Hopefully someone will be able to explain this prophecy about Babylon the Great and New York to the brothers and sister living there. But untill the destruction of Babylon the Great there will be a minimun 3 and half years. That is the prophetic special time period in end time according to prophecies in the Bible.

I have no problem with the speculation that the destruction of the symbolic Babylon the Great could occur after a devastating persecution begins. Whether that persecution lasts a literal 3.5 years or more or less is another speculation that could well occur. As @Arauna noted, however, there is no definite placement of a 3.5 year period within the context of the discussion of Babylon the Great. The idea that BtG could be one particular city is not the kind of thing I would look for myself in Revelation, but I understand the appeal of this solution, especially when we consider Revelation does not picture then end of this Great City as the final end of all nations. (So many ongoing sectors of the world continue to mourn her, although we don't know for how long.)

17 hours ago, Kosonen said:

Unfortunately WT organization does not take seriously the warnings about the persecutions that will happen during that time because they teach that the 3 and half years prophetic time period belong to the past, to something that happened 100 years ago.

I take a strong interest in the Society's way of explaining it, and I know that it creates a few contradictions, but it still produces a rational set of events in a timeline. I am willing to consider other solutions as speculative possibilities, too.

No doubt, Revelation was written in symbols because the very intent was to fire our imaginations. I think that the symbols are so obvious in most cases that even a non-Christian would understand much of what Revelation's imagery would convey to the Christians who would read it.

I have a preferred speculative way of reading the book of Revelation, too. It would preclude the New York City scenario for some of the reasons I already pointed out, and for reasons I consider even more important. These additional reasons relate to keeping our speculations within the framework of the rest of the Bible. I don't think yours does, but then again, I'm pretty sure you probably wouldn't think that my own framework is correct either.

If I get time tomorrow, I'll explain some of the framework for Revelation that makes sense to me. As I said, it doesn't mean that you are wrong, or the Watchtower is wrong. But it's different enough that I would need to explain it as a foundation, before going on to discuss the specifics of Babylon the Great.

[Arauna]

On 1/11/2020 at 11:09 PM, Kosonen said:

A real eye-opener for me were all the verses in Revelation 17 and 18 that say it is a "great city".

Yes- and the name of the city is even more important.  As I explained to you earlier .  It applies to the time when Babylon was a city state..... after the flood.

It applies to a time when half the world turned against the ONE religion of jehovah god after the flood and refused to spread out and obey Him. Instead they built a tower in opposition to Jehovah with false gods and brought religion and rulership together in a priest-king.

Babylon means confusion....... because jehovah confused their languages and forced them to obey him. People did spread out and took their false religion with them where it proliferated in many forms.

Babylon was a great city.......and her influence regarding religion in opposition to jehovah is still influencing all people on earth in all the false religions which promote teachings which do not honour Jehovah. Now she is called Babylon " the Great".  The great confusion. 

Important to note: Cities in ancient Babylon were city-states.  Religion/superstition ruled and the kings were also high priests of the religion, the servant of the main God of the city. A mixing of religion and politics.

As I explained to you earlier - a conglomerate of governments in the world today have realized that different religions cause wars and division (originally caused by the spreading out of people from Babylon).. This is why there are similar features in the ancient towers and practices all over the world in religion. 

At present, the many diverse and even militant religions are causing much devision in the world.  So the UN and some religions  are now working on one world religion with a new set of morals and only one God will be unveiled..... how far they will get I cannot tell...... but you are right when you say the harlot will ride the red beast..... UN and its supporters. 

The harlot (false religions) have been the force behind governments for millenia BUT you may be right...... riding the beast means religion will take the initiative and steer the direction the world is going.

Watch 2020 because this is the beginning efforts of a world religion.   Religion is taking the initiative at present and although they are facing sex abuse charges etc...... they are recreating their image to keep the worship of the world focussed on them.  Soon she may be riding the beast as a queen- pushing UN agenda.  Other religions will have no place in this world.

The prophecies in Revelation come into fulfillment in the "day of jehovah"  when events lead up to a world-wide Armageddon.  So most of the events we look out for is not based just in one country or a city in one country but a worldwide phenomenon.  Rev 1;10