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Revelation: Babylon the Great, etc.


Arauna

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11 minutes ago, b4ucuhear said:

Kosonen: Babylon the Great is New York

No. I don’t think so on account of the prophet Frank: 

If I can’t make it, there, I can’t make it anywhere! I’m stuck with you, New York, New York!”

(New York State registered a decline of population last year and the governor famously said that it was on account of the weather. This led to loud guffaws from those who pointed out that the weather has always been the weather in New York. However, I agreed with him and tweeted that New York has some of the highest weather in the country—income weather, sales weather, and property weather.)

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18 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Revelation was written in symbols because the very intent was to fire our imaginations. I think that the symbols are so obvious in most cases that even a non-Christian would understand much of what Revelation's imagery would convey 

You know, I’m starting to get into this.

Is not New York called the Big Apple? And if it truly was the same as Babylon the Great—the Great City, could it not be said that God’s wrath will take a substantial bite out of it?

Hmm.....Tim Cook is the anti-Christ!!!!!

8E597F69-0D6B-4DAF-B25A-AFFF5A7B05B5.png

1 hour ago, b4ucuhear said:

GB doesn’t agree with you, elders in your congraton don’t agree with you, JWs in general don't agree with you; people on this website don't agree with you (and with good reasoning points); and even that other anti-JW posters have a different interpretation than you, you may want to humblyconsider the possibility that you may need to rethink the direction you have taken over the last little while - and that you may be wrong. 

Not so fast. I’m starting to come around

1 hour ago, b4ucuhear said:

to go where?

To Buffalo, of course!

On 1/11/2020 at 2:09 PM, Kosonen said:

Nice that you are ready to reexamine what really Babylon the Great represent.

I am ready. Teach me.

For crying out loud, Where’s the modesty? (a HUGE tell, in my book)

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14 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Hmm.....Tim Cook is the anti-Christ!!!!!

image.png

 

No No No! I've got it! Now that you've posted this image, it's become crystal clear. It is the bite that Adam took out of the fruit, which caused everything to go bottoms up, and is symbolized quite clearly by NYC, aka the big apple!

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On 1/11/2020 at 2:09 PM, Kosonen said:

What city is like the great city?’ 19 They threw dust on their heads and cried out, weeping and mourning, and said: ‘Too bad, too bad, the great city, in which all those who had ships at sea became rich from her wealth, because in one hour she has been devastated!’

”Amazon is no more! The Greatest Merchant on Earth. Lord Bezos was going to come and then he said No! The two witnesses—Bezos and Cook—who would decimate the Great City! Oh the profits we would have made! Too bad, too bad! Say....what town did Amazon settle on, anyway?”

10 minutes ago, Anna said:

No No No! I've got it! Now that you've posted this image, it's become crystal clear. It is the bite that Adam took out of the fruit, which caused everything to go bottoms up, and is symbolized quite clearly by NYC, aka the big apple!

You are a false prophetess! It is Bezos and Cook. Next to them, Adam is ....um....naked! Go, woman! Go far from here! Mislead not the fine folk at the World News Media Forum any longer!

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56 minutes ago, b4ucuhear said:

" You are essentially asking us to believe that everyone else is wrong and you alone have a pipeline to the "real" truth from God.

But for arguments' sake, even if someone accepted some or even all of what you (or other anti-JW posters) consider the truth, then what? What have you got to offer? Leave off being a JW - 

Those are valid questions. And I am convinced that Jehovah's witnesses as a people play an important role in God's purpose. I am convinced that Jehovah's witnesses will form the "great crowd" that come out of the great tribulation. But as you said it is interesting to explore what else there is in the Bible, because it is hard to get any sensible new light from the GB. So I recommend you all to continue go to meetings and to associate with your congregation. I think it is a good thing, that my wife and my children go regularly to meetings. There are always good biblical  things to learn. 

But then there are things that are incorrect and knowing the truth about those things should be a plus while staying in the congregation. That will also be beneficial for the future, because the earlier you know the truth the easier it will be later. That is why Jesus told his disciples in advance what would happen, for example about his death. At that moment they could not believe what he told them. But after his resurrection they remembered that Jesus had many times already told them that this would happen.

And I really do not want you to blindly believe anything. I want that just like when you studied the Bible and you understood basic truths checking scriptures that made sense, you now likewise look at the scriptures I present and you draw the correct conclusions. Your faith should be based on understanding as it was in the beginning.

We should only trust the Bible, because it is the truth and God's word. But we should not trust what men or women tell claiming to be  God's mouth pieces.

And I understand that it is hard to believe new things, even when scriptures are quite clear. After all we are not so much better than Jesus' 12 apostles. But earnest effort and prayer and investigation is what will make the difference. 

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5 minutes ago, Kosonen said:

So I recommend you all to continue go to meetings and to associate with your congregation.

Okay,

6 minutes ago, Kosonen said:

I think it is a good thing, that my wife and my children go regularly to meetings.

I see them. They are still saving you a seat.

9 minutes ago, Kosonen said:

After all we are not so much better than Jesus' 12 apostles. 

We aren’t?

Come on!—is this for real?

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10 hours ago, JW Insider said:

look for signs that might help them predict or prepare.) Everyone should be happy that the GB are

We remain ready - whatever happens. But Jehovah gives us enough information to watch the world around us and understand.  JWs understood who Babylon the Great was a long time ago and got heated up when certain events happened....... at least they stood on the tower and watched for any sign....they kept on the watch...

I personally have no problem with those who misinterpreted signs before.....no matter how silly...... they remained focussed on serving Jehovah and kept on the watch....... they loved jehovah. That is all that Jehovah sees.  Wicked people judge - let them judge - just go on undeterred doing the right things.

I look at world events now and in my mind's eye I say : thank you jehovah for allowing me to see how things MAY unfold.  If I die before these come to fruition, I can say that I have seen the events happen in my minds eye -  I believed every word in the bible by looking for that which it says may occur.... I stay focussed......to remain ready.

The first thing I will ask when I get a resurrection most probably will be: How did it really happen!.....

4 hours ago, Kosonen said:

hard to get any sensible new light from the GB.

They are preparing us for Armageddon.  They do not want to cry wolf....... they are very careful now.... the reason being because we are close to world events suddenly turning seriously bad....... too many to mention. To cry wolf at the wrong time will not be in interest of the sheep.

They are right in doing this because when things occur we will recognize the signs. They have showed us from the bible the signs to expect - we know.  We need no special interpretations any longer like way back in the past. 

5 hours ago, Kosonen said:

That is why Jesus told his disciples in advance what would happen, for example about his death. At that moment they could not believe what he told them. But after his resurrection they remembered that Jesus had many times already told them that this would happen.

Very good point m'dear.

5 hours ago, Kosonen said:

understand that it is hard to believe new things,

I know I sound like a nutcase sometimes....... but I watch the world closely..... to see where things are leading...... and I see things going on in the world (what world leaders are planning) that is absolutely beyond logical comprehension......and they are moving and pushing the agendas fast.......things are changing fast. 

The world we knew a decade ago is fast dissipating. The air we breathe is totally inspired by satan.  

It us time now to keep close to Jehovah, read the bible, keep up the preaching and associate with those who love jehovah.

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7 hours ago, Arauna said:

When the bible indicates that the merchants will cry when all the bedfellows of false religion makes her naked - I guess all the billionaires and stock market whizes  will start crying - and there are a few digital moguls in the mix. Lol.  

I can not understand how elimination of religion would affect commerce so much. 

But if New York was suddenly destroyed by nukes from above and then flooded by a tsunami caused by underwater nuclear blasts. That would surely cause a serious commercial disruption. Are not international trades settled in New York?

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On 1/15/2020 at 5:20 AM, JW Insider said:

A friend of mine who left Bethel shortly after 9/11/2001 thought that several of the Governing Body must have been thinking of leaving shortly after the WTC towers fell. He said there was fear in their voices, and a lot more closed-door, "bunker" mentality

Thanks JW Insider for your comments. You gave interesting details. The above one  I liked to hear. And the rest about how people started to move out businesses from NYC.

 

On 1/15/2020 at 4:51 PM, JW Insider said:

Jehovah made a way out in this case by opening a "window of opportunity" between the attack in 66 CE, and the destruction in 70 CE (which coincidentally [?] happened to be about 3.5 years).

You thought about a very significant point. Following that pattern the period of time times and half a time in the Bible should logically occur right before Armageddon. 

And really, why would Jehovah tell us prophetically about events around WT society 100 years ago? Would it not be much more of spiritual value if it concerned Jehovah's witnesses before Armageddon now when there are millions of Jehovah's witnesses?

Add to this that most JWs find it very hard to understand the explanations in the litterature concerning 1260 days/42 months/time times and half a time. I remember how that was last time when we studied the Revelation Climax book. At least here the brothers were not happy studing that book for a third time. Because most of the explanations are not convincing, thus impossible to understand.

On 1/15/2020 at 4:51 PM, JW Insider said:

The circumstances of this speculation about NYC, according to your own explanation, provides a way of extending the end of the system beyond 3.5 years from now.

Some maybe need to think that Armageddon could come in a very near future, like within weeks in order not to slip away from God. But if we understand how severe the persecution will be during the 3 and half year period leading up to the destruction of Babylon the Great, then we will start really seriously search for spiritual things and guidance in God's word. Because that is the only thing one will care about in a spiritual survival mode. At least that is the effect it has had on me. 

On 1/15/2020 at 5:20 AM, JW Insider said:

As @Arauna noted, however, there is no definite placement of a 3.5 year period within the context of the discussion of Babylon the Great.

Maybe the shortest answer to that question is in Daniel 7:11 "I kept watching at that time because of the sound of the arrogant* words that the horn was speaking;+ I watched until the beast was killed and its body was destroyed and it was given over to be burned in the fire. 12  But as for the rest of the beasts,+ their rulerships were taken away, and their lives were prolonged for a time and a season.

 “I kept watching as that horn made war on the holy ones, and it was prevailing against them,+22  until the Ancient of Days+ came and judgment was rendered in favor of the holy ones of the Supreme One,+ and the appointed time arrived for the holy ones to take possession of the kingdom.+23  “This is what he said: ‘As for the fourth beast, there is a fourth kingdom that will come to be on the earth. It will be different from all the other kingdoms, and it will devour all the earth and will trample it down and crush it.+ 24  As for the ten horns, ten kings will rise up out of that kingdom; and still another one will rise up after them, and he will be different from the first ones, and he will humiliate three kings.+ 25  He will speak words against the Most High,+ and he will continually harass the holy ones of the Supreme One. He will intend to change times and law, and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.*+ 26  But the Court sat, and they took away his rulership, in order to annihilate him and to destroy him completely."

We see here that before this arrogant beast is destroyed it will have time, times and half a time, that is 3 and half years to 'harass', or persecute the 'holy ones' and speak against the Most High. 

So from this scripture it is quite evident that there must occur a 3 and half year persecution before Armageddon. And closely related to Armageddon will be the destruction of Babylon the Great.

This chapter 7 in Daniel essentially indicates that all the occurances in the Bible mentioning  3 and half years in various forms (1260 days/42months/time times half a time) end near the time of Armageddon. 

Here is a very similar prophecy in Revelation:

Revelation 13:5 "It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months.+ 6  And it opened its mouth in blasphemies+ against God to blaspheme his name and his dwelling place, even those residing in heaven.+7  It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them,+ and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue* and nation."

15 "And it was permitted to give breath* to the image of the wild beast, so that the image of the wild beast should both speak and cause to be killed all those who refuse to worship the image of the wild beast."

We see some striking similarities between the arrogant beast in Daniel 7 and Revelatio 13. And the time it will act is also the same. But in Revelatrion we get  additional information on what the persecution will be based. 

Does it not look like these scriptures fortell that there will come a time of persecution during 3 and half years before Armageddon?

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16 hours ago, Kosonen said:

I want that just like when you studied the Bible and you understood basic truths checking scriptures that made sense, you now likewise look at the scriptures I present and you draw the correct conclusions.

It sounds like you are absolutely sure of this interpretation. I won't deny that that the interpretation has some appeal. I brought up 9-11 because it was soon after 9-11-2001 that dozens of websites began promoting this theory for the first time, although several had already held that NYC was Babylon the Great for many years prior. If I were to search Google today with: "Babylon the Great is New York CIty" I get about 18,000,000 hits where the first few pages, at least, are full of sites that would agree with you. Even on page 10, I get a site reference that includes an interesting tidbit from a business site:

Mar 6, 2018 - The greatest cities in human history, as determined by thousands of years' worth of data. ... Babylon: The world's largest city in 700 BC. < ... New York City took on its modern shape in 1914, when the Bronx joined Manhattan, ...
 
I'm not the one to try to punch more holes in this theory, because my own theory also differs from the WT interpretation. However, I don't see any problem with the identification of Babylon the Great with false religion. Personally, I see another strong possibility too, but I can easily defend the idea that BTG represents false religion, too. I think that when we start trying to interpret Revelation, we need to see how it would have helped readers in the 2nd century, or even the 1st century. We should also understand why it was not accepted as Scripture by most Christian communities in Asia Minor until the 5th century. 
 
If all Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining for righteousness, then Revelation should have held great meaning for Christians from the time it was first written. After all, Revelation was the report about the unsealing of the once-sealed visions of Daniel. Outside of Daniel, most Biblical apocalypses actually are a revealing of the actions in heaven that explain things already happening on earth. For example, the apocalypse of Job chapter 1 reveals what went on in heaven unbeknownst to Job that would have explained things happening on earth. Same with the prophets surrounding Michaiah. It was a revealing of things going on in heaven to explain an awkward situation on earth.
 
In a previous discussion, a Biblical case was proposed for seeing Revelation 11 an 12 as a revelation of what was already true of Christianity in the first century. (Where the two witnesses would have meant the witness to the nations and the witness to the Jews, and could have been represented by Paul and Peter, and the two olive trees would have meant what Romans said they meant, and the birth of the kingdom would have happened when Colossians said it happened.)
 
Along the same lines, I think that the symbol of Rome being destroyed was a symbol of what had happened when Jesus conquered the world, and how each and every Christian goes on conquering the world, by overcoming the desires of the world. In Daniel and Revelation, both, Rome is the final world power. Therefore, we can use it as a symbol, and know that ultimately the world will be physically destroyed to make way for a new heavens and a new earth, but we, as Christians, have already conquered the world! Rome is already destroyed for us in a spiritual sense.

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