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The range of political beliefs among Jehovah's Witnesses

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Sometimes when people discuss religion or politics with someone, we are apt to wonder just how anyone can believe things that seem so crazy to us, while at the same time, the other person is wondering the same thing about our own beliefs.

So I start this new thread on politics under a JW Club, because we are supposed to have a kind of love-hate relationship with the topic of politics. We stay neutral, but that's often just enough distance to get things wrong. And we stay alert for issues that might end up being of Biblical significance, so that most of us stay informed at least through mainstream news sources.

However, there are other views far from the mainstream, that some Witnesses hold to. Most political issues have become very complex due to the fast-paced movement of world events since the dawn of a military industrial age and a lightning fast information age on top of that.

The mainstream media sources in most nations have an agenda in support of the ruling classes and/or elite classes within the nation. Several add a layer of "information" on top of that with a partisan political agenda -- very easy to spot in nations with only two major political parties. An agenda within an agenda. Outside of mainstream media, however, the sources are chaotic and sometimes extreme, full of outlandish interpretations and conspiracies, too. The chaos is even stoked by entities hoping to push audiences back to mainstream sources, where we feel a certain rational consistency of messaging. Of course, that "messaging" is often just propaganda inoculating us from studying situations for ourselves. This keeps us from realizing that mainstream media is also full of chaos and conspiracies, but constant repetition of messages makes it seem correct. If it doesn't quite seem correct, we feel that things are just too complicated to ever get the whole truth anyway. So we give up and pretend the mainstream media is the best we can do, or we hang onto some conspiracy that seems to explain everything.

In this topic I plan to give a few of my own views about various political topics. It's easiest to structure these views around comments that have already been made from others. Especially comments where I take nearly the opposite view. This should help to highlight the wide range of possible interpretations. There are plenty of such comments in the recent/current "Babylon the Great" topic, so I will probably get a few ideas from there over the next few weeks. This isn't to pick on anyone's views in particular, but I find myself disagreeing with @Arauna and @Kosonen on a range of topics. I also completely agree with them on a range of topics. But this might show how people can take several or more different paths of interpretation from some of the same "evidence" or information.

It might be a while, because I haven't figured out where to start yet. So anyone should feel free to make suggestions or jump in before I do.

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I think American JW's get more wound up with politics that here in the UK. For all the time I was a JW we never spoke about politics, apart from one single brother that I will mention later, but that was just his personal 'theory'...

For my part I have no interest in politicians or political parties. I don't vote for any of them. But I did vote to leave the EU. My feelings were that leaving the EU was an action. It wasn't about the political party or the PM, it was about an action that the UK could take. A bit like the W/t outlook on climate change. Do your bit to make things better whilst still being 'no part of the world'

But sorry @Arauna  I do think you get very 'involved' in worldly affairs. Your own business of course. To me it does not take such a deep look to see how bad the 'world' is getting, and we know it's Satan's world anyway. 

@JW Insider Maybe you could start off by saying why JWs actually need to look into world politics and worldly affairs ? 

OK, now this one brother that has a 'theory'. He is a young man, single, probably has too much spare time to think on things. His idea is that the Russians have the remains of Noah's Ark. He has some video footage of what he says are Russian troops breaking up the remains and transporting it to Russia. His idea is that the remains would make more people believe in God and that Russia as a whole wants to remove all beliefs from people. Is that political ? Is it even important ?  I only mentioned it as you were writing about folks having crazy thoughts and beliefs. 

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OK, let me start.

Politics is the set of activities associated with the governance of a country, state or an area. It involves making decisions that apply to groups of members. It refers to achieving and exercising positions of governance—organized control over a human community, particularly a state. 

    Hello guest!

(Romans 13:1, 2) Let every person be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God. 2 Therefore, whoever opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God; those who have taken a stand against it will bring judgment against themselves.
 

 

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19 minutes ago, Melinda Mills said:

Politics

also:
the 
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 within a 
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 or 
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 that 
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 to have 
    Hello guest!
 over 
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:
I don't like to get 
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 in 
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 politics. - 
    Hello guest!
 
 

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1 hour ago, 4Jah2me said:

 Maybe you could start off by saying why JWs actually need to look into world politics and worldly affairs ? 

I didn't want to give the impression that there is a need, only that we probably have a general expectation that politics can show just how bad things are in the world and therefore we all have some interest. Some of the details can be used when trying to get other persons interested in the message about the Kingdom. It is rather rare, I think, for most Witnesses to take much of a specific interest in a political issue, except where something might effect us personally -- in countries where a ban on Witnesses might be in the works, or formal recognition, for that matter.

The level of interest of Kosonen or Arauna or myself is not typical at all in my experience. I can discuss politics with no one except my own family and even here there are obvious practical limits.

But you might not believe the level of politics in the 1910s through the 1940's among Bible Students and early Jehovah's Witnesses. It was driven by hundreds of articles that delved into political matters at great length and great depth. Russell wrote a letter to the U.S. President to tell him that Filipinos are lazy and the Japanese are hardworking. The articles on Hitler even before he took power were already taking up pages of the Golden Age. There are densely packed articles on Germany and Hitler that went on for several pages with a level of detail and quotations from secular sources that would be unheard of today.

@Melinda I am not referring to politics in its most practical sense, about getting things done in a state, or city, or community. I am referring more to the divisive ideologies of national politics that keep people arguing about foreign policy, drive prejudices, create conflicts between nations, produce nationalism, etc.

 

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I think the worst type is family politics, especially mother in- laws :) 

@JW Insider Yes what you have written there about Russell, in my opinion, would show that he was not inspired of God, nor did he have God's guidance. I believe I've read on here that he wrote unkind things about 'people of colour' too. 

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36 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

 Yes what you have written there about Russell, in my opinion, would show that he was not inspired of God, nor did he have God's guidance. I believe I've read on here that he wrote unkind things about 'people of colour' too. 

It was much less common with Russell to get political. And his statements about people of color were mostly better than his contemporaries. Somewhat progressive for his time. But Rutherford had been a political person before becoming a Bible Student. He even worked on a U.S. presidential campaign.

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It was political opinion, (although based on scriptures in his mind), that got Rutherford and his associates in trouble and throw in prison in 1918 on charges of sedition....

5 hours ago, JW Insider said:

But you might not believe the level of politics in the 1910s through the 1940's among Bible Students and early Jehovah's Witnesses. It was driven by hundreds of articles that delved into political matters at great length and great depth.

Yes, it always surprises me when I read snippets from publications of that period. The other day I was clearing up some stuff in the garage and found some more old books that belong to my mother in law. As always I can't resist reading a few pages. It's obvious that Rutherford was very in the know as regards politics. And so was Russel (from reading old 1913 WT). It's evident though that the reason they were discussing politics was not because they somehow wanted to be a part of the world as @4Jah2me insinuates, but because the political scene convinced them of the fulfillment of Bible prophecies, and also that we are living in the time of the end.

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10 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Russell wrote a letter to the U.S. President to tell him that Filipinos are lazy and the Japanese are hardworking.

Paul commented how “this witness is true” and he was referring to the prophet among them who wrote that Cretans were “always liars, injurious wild beasts, idle gluttons.”

10 hours ago, JW Insider said:

except where something might effect us personally -- in countries where a ban on Witnesses might be in the works, or formal recognition, for that matter

Emily Baran cites a few places in Wt publications post-WWII which reiterates the phrase “iron curtain.” This didn’t sit well with the Soviet government, who considered it not an iron curtain at all but a protective barrier.

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2020-01-25_003508.jpg

The true test of any association of people, be it a Nation, a Tribe, a Family, or a religious organization is this:

How many people are trying hard to get in ... and how many people are trying hard to get out.

The Soviets knew their "iron curtain" was not a protective wall to try and keep people out ... it was a prison wall to try and keep people in.

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Quote @Anna  " It's evident though that the reason they were discussing politics was not because they somehow wanted to be a part of the world as @4Jah2me insinuates, "

Quote @JW Insider " Russell wrote a letter to the U.S. President to tell him that Filipinos are lazy and the Japanese are hardworking. "

Um, no part of the world ? 

Quote @TrueTomHarley  Paul commented how “this witness is true” and he was referring to the prophet among them who wrote that Cretans were “always liars, injurious wild beasts, idle gluttons.”

Can you please quote the scripture where Paul said that and more information about the 'prophet and his quote. Sounds interesting but without quotes it could be untrue. 

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We should consider the below advice before we go further on this.

*** w89 5/15 p. 31 Questions From Readers ***

...

We should find in this a caution for all of us. Ethnic or national prejudice may abound around us. (Compare John 7:47-52.) We likely hear neighbors, schoolmates, or fellow workers make categorical remarks about another people, such as, ‘Oh, those northerners are all cold and unfeeling’; ‘Well, you know how proud those southerners are’; or, ‘It’s risky to trust those people from across the border.’

We must strive to avoid giving in to broad characterizations that are probably unfounded or greatly exaggerated. Some may be more outgoing and expressive, others more reserved or slow to warm up to strangers. Yet, we should remember that some of our Christian brothers are no doubt to be found among the people of that ethnic group or nationality, as well as many others who have not yet become true Christians but who have admirable traits and who hunger for righteousness.

The apostle Peter stressed the fact that “God is not partial, but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him.” (Acts 10:34, 35) We can be absolutely sure that Paul agreed with that, reflecting the same outlook in his writings and speech. So should we.

 

 

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1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

was taught that Yankees had pointed teeth, and ate babies. I knew this was not true ... but suspected it MIGHT be.

When we drove from Florida to Rochester years ago, whenever we crossed the state line, there appeared a huge “Welcome to such-and -such State!” soon followed by a hospitality stand. When we crossed into New York it was “Welcome to New York!” followed by “Stop! Pay toll!” [exclamation marks mine, probably]

People have been leaving the state lately and the (extremely liberal) governor has said it is due to the weather. I agreed with him, tweeting that New York has very high income weather, property weather, and sales weather.

Within the year, legislation was enacted to make New York the most green place, not only in the country, but maybe in the world. Since it is but the tiniest sliver of the overall world, can it not be positioning for a 2024 Presidential bid/

Within the month, legislation has created a “catch and release” program for non-violent offenders—issue them a court date and let them go. A woman’s group says: “What? Domestic abuse that falls short of broken bones will be catch and release? They fear women will not report it at all—what’s the point? Especially since a reported and released abusive spouse may just return to the scene of the crime to ‘teach the woman a lesson.’ It brings some real fear into the unsavory joke: “What do all abused women have in common? They just won’t listen.”

The gov has conceded that the law can use some tweaking. Cops hate it as is. Why report a burglary? Might not reporting one result in retribution? But the gov has run the stats, has discovered that jail detentions do not balance out racially, and figures his duty is to stop that. When I live in the hood I recall (white) neighbors blasting their boom box full volume on their front lawn. All prior complaints had fallen on deaf ears. It was a low enough priority for police that if you called it in, you ought not hold your breath. I remember I wanted with every once of my being to cross my small yard and smash the thing once with a baseball bat—one hit would do it. I didn’t do it, though. I knew that I could not stay home day and night and guard my house.

Low priority then. No priority at all now, most likely. But the gov lives in a fine area.

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CONSPIRACIES

There is some truth to many conspiracies. Also some conspiracies have been proven to be completely true. A few conspiracies are completely false, sometimes made up specifically to dismiss the truth of a real conspiracy.

In the Babylon thread mentioned above, there is a very long video which seems primarily derived from the scripts that Alex Jones of InfoWars promoted. In fact, much of the video is the voice of Alex Jones. Under that topic, the subject of conspiracies had already come up with reference to beliefs about the UN, and Alex Jones fits right in on this topic.

I never paid attention to Alex Jones of InfoWars, but I figured from things I heard that he would also have included a lot of truth in his conspiracy theories. The only time I had listened for any length of time to Alex Jones was when I listened to a documentary about him, which I thought was a really good expose of his dishonesty on many issues, It used his own words and contradictions, lies and backtracking, and interviews with persons who knew him personally at various stages of his life.

FAKE CRISIS ACTORS

That documentary just mentioned was followed up with another documentary on Alex Jones and the gun issue, through which he deeply hurt parents of children who lost their lives in school shootings. With reference to some of the worst of these shootings, Alex Jones has claimed that they are staged, and that these are "crisis actors" acting as dead children, frantic teachers, grieving parents, police, etc. One parent (who lost a child at Sandy Hook, CT) had the resolve to challenge what Jones was doing, so Jones verbally attacked him viciously and even instigated members of his audience to continue harassing him, so that the man was not able to move from one part of the country to another without his new address being published. He had to move about 7 times. He finally won a suit against Alex Jones, who had to apologize, but then Jones went right back to attacking him after the apology.

There was another school shooting more recently where I saw that people were quickly talking about how the timeline was faked, the crisis actors were faking, interviews with children gave conflicting reports about where it was, how many shots, when the police showed up, etc. This one I decided to follow more closely and watched all the available videos that the conspiracy promoters were using as evidence. If these people were serious, it meant that people can see things in videos that aren't really there and not see things that were there. They could completely misread news reporting and timelines as if illiterate, yet manage the most amazing mental gymnastics in extrapolating about a minor mistake or typo. Many seemed to be outright lying, and proud that they were spreading this "truth" in the service of showing that people like Alex Jones had been right all along. The term "cult" came to mind.

REAL CRISIS ACTORS

This little bit of research made me wonder about another set of controversial videos I heard about. These were the videos being staged by the "White Helmets" who really turn out to be a group of Islamo-Fascist, Al-Qaeda styled terrorists in Syria, who have staged videos with actual dead bodies, and who were caught faking many videos with live persons (even children) pretending to be dead, to help promote support for their side against Assad's forces. Finally they even staged supposed "chemical" attacks that had the necessary effect to bring support to Al-Qaeda and against Assad. The United States even got away with supporting Al-Qaeda in this war, something that would not have been tolerated by Americans in general just a couple years earlier. Of course, America had to rename them "moderate rebels." In a couple of cases, not only were the child "actors" recycled from video to video, but other videos showed up with these same "White Helmet" heroes chopping heads off prisoners. The difficulties in researching these videos was due to the fact that the videos that showed the "White Helmet" mistakes and fakery were quickly disappearing as fast as they were being exposed, and only the better made fakes were being publicized. Some were sloppy enough that you could see, inconsistent use of gas masks, and in others, "dead" people being given directions for the video.

Western sources rarely admitted that more than one or two of the White Helmets videos were faked. [CNN: Syria's White Helmets apologize for Mannequin Challenge video] (

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)  But those who followed the videos closely found serious and obvious problems with several.

Ultimately, although very little publicized, the United States began to drop the claim that they had physical evidence of Assad's chemical/gas attacks. The primary source of the OPCW report against Assad had turned out to be a private blog (bellingcat) which had been treated as if it were an intelligence resource. The Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) had initially dismissed dissenting members of OPCW teams that disagreed with their official results. However a series of email leaks and leaked versions of reports showed that OPCW had faked results.  OPCW was massively exposed, even in front of the UN.

    Hello guest!

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5 hours ago, JW Insider said:

began to drop the claim that they had physical evidence of Assad's chemical/gas attacks.

I got sick and tired of hearing the hysterical cry that Assad had “gassed his own people”—mostly because it seemed to imply that gassing anyone else would be okay.

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This NBC commentator makes valid points about President Donald Trump. And unintentionally this would fit to the Anti-Christ King some American preachers have warned would come.

Those preachers in USA have explained that the "man of sin" or "man of lawlessness" in 2 Thessalonians 2 is a coming world ruler, the Anti-Christ.

I just wounder how Donald Trump will take the criticism he just got. He could turn against Christianity as a revenge. 

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3 hours ago, Kosonen said:

I just wounder how Donald Trump will take the criticism he just got. He could turn against Christianity as a revenge. 

Please don’t look for end-time prophesies here, Kos. And please don’t present network TV as the channel of love. Please don’t tell us that love emanates from Harvard. Nor tell us that Congress starts each day with consideration of the daily text: “Can’t we all just get along?”  Just don’t—on any of those counts.

Go back to your meetings, won’t you? Join your wife and kids. Tell the brothers that you’ll try to refrain from running ahead. Work on your people skills. You don’t have to parrot every little thing. It is enough not to grab the wheel.

Why is everything so American with you? NYC is Babylon the Great? Trump is the Man of Lawlessness? How are those in India or Romania going to get their heads around that?

If JTR got back in due to cherishing the core teachings, anybody can. Don’t present yourself as a true prophet arising in our midst and you’ll do fine. It’s okay to present yourself as a person having doubts about this, that, or the other thing. Congregation elders have mercy toward such ones. (Jude 22) But the mercy will wear thin if you present yourself as instructor to the worldwide organization.

 

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What is the difference between NBC and FOX that is known as “nothing but Trump” network? Where does the obtuseness stand then?

Why would any witness care about political nuance other than to see it to understand the point in time for prophecy.

No one knows the “day” or the “hour” but that doesn’t mean witnesses should not stay alert for signs that human events are asserted in.

Therefore, it’s not about going back because someone has blinded themselves to the truth, or returned for "payback" and retribution to spew falsehoods about the Org like any ex-witness but beg God for forgiveness for allowing Satan to make that determination for them.

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4 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

And please don’t present network TV as the channel of love.

We can learn something from what apostle Paul said in Philippians 1:15:

"True, some are preaching the Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. 16  The latter are proclaiming the Christ out of love, for they know that I have been appointed to defend the good news; 17  but the former do it out of contentiousness, not with a pure motive, for they are intending to create trouble for me in my prison bonds. 18  With what result? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is being proclaimed, and I rejoice over this. In fact, I will also keep on rejoicing,"

4 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Tell the brothers that you’ll try to refrain from running ahead.

The Governing Body should not limit spiritual progress on earth. Jesus told that he gives talents to each of his slaves and sends them to increase his assets here on earth. So one slave should not put limits on other coslaves of their Master Jesus Christ. We are free to examine scriptures and believe them and preach about them. 

 

4 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Why is everything so American with you?

Do not ordinary JWs agree that USA plays an important role in Bible prophecies?

4 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

But the mercy will wear thin if you present yourself as instructor to the worldwide organization.

I should not compromise with what I believe is true. 

Jesus said that we should not bother if we gain people's approval or not in a such case:

John 5:44 "How can you believe, when you are accepting glory from one another and you are not seeking the glory that is from the only God?

John 12:42 "All the same, many even of the rulers actually put faith in him, but they would not acknowledge him because of the Pharisees, so that they would not be expelled from the synagogue; 43  for they loved the glory of men even more than the glory of God."

And Jesus' apostle Paul said a similar thing:

Galatians 1:10 "Is it, in fact, men I am now trying to persuade or God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still pleasing men, I would not be Christ’s slave."

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4 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

" Tell the brothers that you’ll try to refrain from running ahead. "

This is funny Tom.  Don't you know that your organisation has been running ahead from it's beginning ?

Russell ran ahead with his ideas of when Armageddon was coming and about the return to earth of the prophets.

JW Org ran ahead in the 1970's screaming that Armageddon was here. 

And now you, dear elder, criticise a man for having his own thoughts. 

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4 hours ago, César Chávez said:

No one knows the “day” or the “hour” but that doesn’t mean witnesses should not stay alert for signs that human events are asserted in.

Well, yeah, but if you see fulfillment of prophesy every time Trump blasts away at an opponent, the entire Book of Revelation will be fulfilled within the week.

If Kos must go into prophesy fulfillment, tell him to focus on how Trump vs Whoever has illuminated 2 Timothy 3:1-5. It used to be that if you read those verses and the householder didn’t agree that now is the time they are taking place, there wasn’t much you can do about it. Plainly, they are subjective, 

It is very hard to deny it now, though, with a straight face. Trump vs his enemies constitute Exhibit A of the world losing its mind. But it is only Exhibit A—one must not forget B-Z.

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22 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Well, yeah, but if you see fulfillment of prophesy every time Trump blasts away at an opponent, the entire Book of Revelation will be fulfilled within the week.

With some exaggeration it could be said the whole book of Daniel is about Donald Trump.

  1. The horn that has eyes and a mouth that speaks arrogantly (Daniel 7): Donald Trump is accused of speaking arrogantly and bluntly. 
  2. A fierce looking king (Daniel 8:23-25): Donald Trump has a fierce look.
  3. The king will do as he pleases, and he will exalt himself and magnify himself above every god; and against the God of gods he will speak astonishing things. And he will prove successful until the denunciation comes to a finish; because what is determined must take place. (Daniel 11:36): Donald Trump already fit some of these characteristics, he does as he pleases and brags openly and against all odds proves to be successful in staying in power and he has had success in domestic politics. The latest victory for him was of course the aquittal from impeachment.

It really looks like Donald Trump is going to fulfill a lot more prophecies.

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King does not necessarily refer to one person.  Check Daniel and see that it can refer to a world power/powerful kingdom.

(Daniel 7:17, 18) 17 “‘These huge beasts, four in number, are four kings who will stand up from the earth. 18 But the holy ones of the Supreme One will receive the kingdom, and they will possess the kingdom forever, yes, forever and ever.’

Media-Persia, Greece, Rome, Britain-America (Anglo-American)
 

But I agree it can also refer to the King of a great world power.

*** it-1 p. 70 Alexander ***
“A male of the goats . . . proceeded to strike down the ram and to break its two horns.” “The ram that you saw possessing the two horns stands for the kings of Media and Persia. And the hairy he-goat stands for the king of Greece.” (Da 8:5, 7, 20, 21)
After defeating the Medo-Persian forces twice in Asia Minor, Alexander’s army pushed first to the S and then to the E, completely conquering the Medo-Persian Empire
 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Kosonen said:

The latest victory for him was of course the aquittal from impeachment.

Well, what in the world do you expect? “Yeah, I know that I was impeached, but I am really guilty—can’t believe I fooled them on that—they really should have convicted me.” You think he’s going to say that, or think that?

Do you know what acquittal means? It means not guilty. So when the process finds him not guilty, as he never thought he was, in the face of critics vehemently insisting that he was guilty as sin, even a traitor to the country—and given his personality not to shrink from a fight, would you not expect him to do a victory lap or three?

Do you even know what he was impeached for? Most Americans had only a hazy idea and if you explained it to them in more detail, many couldn’t see how it was an especial big deal—it is not as though the charge he made of the former VP’s son was untrue, after all.

1 hour ago, Kosonen said:

A fierce looking king (Daniel 8:23-25): Donald Trump has a fierce look.

You’re kidding me! And everyone else in town has the countenance of an angel?

1 hour ago, Kosonen said:

And he will prove successful until the denunciation comes to a finish

Everyone is successful until their denunciation comes to a finish. C’mon, Kos! Ask JTR to tell you about how Cool Hand Luke kept coming at George Kennedy even though he had nothing.

Look, some find the guy’s candor refreshing. You lap up the commentator painting a picture of a Congress shocked—shocked!—that he would carry on so at a prayer breakfast, as though business as normal for them is devotion to prayer?! 

1 hour ago, Kosonen said:

With some exaggeration it could be said the whole book of Daniel is about Donald Trump.

Enough of the stuff to float the Spanish Armada on, methinks.

At most, he is an example of the clay that does not mix with the iron. You might think of him as a bull in a china shop, but would you really want to liken government status quo as a ‘china shop?’

Call him a junkyard dog in a junkyard and you are on safer ground. But the only dog in Revelation is the one that goes down with about a half-dozen other types of scoundrels. And don’t start pumping a prophesy out of that—it was just a throwaway line!

4Jah’s true annointed, to manifest itself out of nowhere within ten years, may have an opening for head prophet, but as for me and my household, I can find a better one at any Seven-Eleven store.

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This is an observation leading to several questions I do not know the answer to:

I would ask this questions in my congregation, but even asking the questions would put me on the "suspicious  persons " list, and I would be subject to an open ended "fishing expedition" interrogation that I am weary of.

In Norway there are approximately 112,000 Jehovah's Witnesses, and presumably none of them vote in political elections, under penalty of disfellowshipping by the Congregation Elders.

In Norway, the Government subsidizes all registered and approved churches, as is done in many European countries, with a "per head" payment based on membership numbers.. I think the WTB&TS gets, in NK (Norwegian Kroner) about $83 equivalent for each JW reported to the government. ( I do not really know the number, and am reporting a partial memory).. If so, that is about 9.2 million dollars equivalent.

Discussions are now SERIOUSLY going on among Norwegian politicians to cancel that subsidy for Jehovah's Witnesses, BECAUSE they are in severe violation of basic human rights , in that the WTB&TS imposes on their JW Norwegian citizens, namely, severe punishment and sanctions for exercising their Norwegian right to vote.

If this "push" reaches fruition, Norwegian citizens will still have to pay taxes as before for this, but the Society will not get their 9.2 million dollars a year, or whatever the real number is, AND JWs will be branded as "extremists", and other nasty things, with solid proof that they are in fact actually guilty, guilty, guilty, of basic human rights violations.

I cannot imagine the Society wanting to give up the estimated 9.2 million dollars each year, or be branded as enemies of civilization .... so my questions are as follows:

Will the Society relax the standards for voting in Norway, and more to the point SHOULD they relax the voting standards now in force for Norwegian JWs, and make it a matter of personal conscience, (as it is with it's OK to accept whole blood, if it is fractionated, and is administered in 13 separate IV tubes) ?

SHOULD voting in elections and referendums, etc, be a matter of personal conscience, and not punishable by expulsion, and shunning ?

 

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8 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

You’re kidding me! And everyone else in town has the countenance of an angel?

Daniel 8:23-25 says: 

And in the final part of their kingdom, as the transgressors act to a completion, a fierce-looking king who understands ambiguous sayings will stand up. 24  His power will become great, but not through his own power. He will bring ruin in an extraordinary way, and he will be successful and act effectively. He will bring mighty ones to ruin, also the people made up of the holy ones. 25  And by his cunning he will use deception to succeed; and in his heart he will exalt himself; and during a time of security he will bring many to ruin. He will even stand up against the Prince of princes, but he will be broken without human hand.

Those highlighted characteristics above are things that the media tell about Trump already. 

And how do people around the world perceive Donald Trump's facial image? Soft? Gentle? Or fierce? Needless to say.

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5 hours ago, Kosonen said:

Those highlighted characteristics above are things that the media tell about Trump already. And how do people around the world perceive Donald Trump's facial image? Soft? Gentle? Or fierce? 

This is because whenever he appears on media, he is responding to one of their accusations. What! Would you hold up the media as revealer of Truth? You do not see that they plainly have an agenda of their own? 

This is downright childish, Kos. Watch him at one of his rallies and he will not appear “fierce” at all. He will be appear almost as jolly as Santa Claus.

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41 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

 Watch him at one of his rallies and he will not appear “fierce” at all. He will be appear almost as jolly as Santa Claus

I have seen him on his rallies. There he brags about himself, as the prophecies tell that he would speak arrogantly and boastfully and exalt himself.

Some people love it. And he gets votes.

New International Version, Daniel 7:8 “While I was thinking about the horns, there before me was another horn, a little one, which came up among them; and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like the eyes of a human being and a mouth that spoke boastfully.

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28 minutes ago, Kosonen said:

“While I was thinking about the horns, there before me was another horn, a little one, which came up among them; and three of the first horns were uprooted before it.

Well, I did see him gore Biden, Warren, and Sanders recently. Maybe that counts to fulfill a prophesy that has stood a mystery for thousands of years.

There were several others he slammed but you cannot count them. They’ll screw up the numbering.

 

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And more indications pile up pointing to Donald Trump as the king of the north in Daniel 11:37...but he will magnify himself over everyone. 38  But instead he will give glory to the god of fortresses; to a god that his fathers did not know he will give glory by means of gold and silver and precious stones and desirable things.

This god of fortress has been explained to mean military spending. And this is something Donald Trump has increased. He thinks this is a top priority. Here is a news clip commenting on that.

 

 

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@TrueTomHarley The angel explained what the vision means that 3 horns were plucked off before him: 

Daniel 7:24 "As for the ten horns, ten kings will rise up out of that kingdom; and still another one will rise up after them, and he will be different from the first ones, and he will humiliate three kings."

I have been looking who those 3 kings would be? They should be a part of the same beast. So they should be 3 significant "western"  countries. 

Trump has been harsh against many countries, but could it be Germany, France and UK?

  1. Trump has been hard on Merkel, Germany and the Nord Stream gas pipeline from Russian to Germany.
  2. Trump has been hard on Macron and France.
  3. Trump was hard on Theresa May UK, and just recently Trump "tore into" Boris Johnson over Huawei. 
      Hello guest!

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5 minutes ago, Kosonen said:

@TrueTomHarley The angel explained what the vision means that 3 horns were plucked off before him: 

Daniel 7:24 "As for the ten horns, ten kings will rise up out of that kingdom; and still another one will rise up after them, and he will be different from the first ones, and he will humiliate three kings."

I have been looking who those 3 kings would be? They should be a part of the same beast. So they should be 3 significant "western"  countries. 

Trump has been harsh against many countries, but could it be Germany, France and UK?

  1. Trump has been hard on Merkel, Germany and the Nord Stream gas pipeline from Russian to Germany.
  2. Trump has been hard on Macron and France.
  3. Trump was hard on Theresa May UK, and just recently Trump "tore into" Boris Johnson over Huawei. 
      Hello guest!

You should hear him carry on about Mexico whenever they cross him.

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I just saw tv commentators talk about their fear of Trump revenge on his enemies. This is something actually prophecied in Daniel 8 in the prophecy about the fierce-looking king. Quite interesting.

Daniel 8:23 And in the final part of their kingdom, as the transgressors act to a completion, a fierce-looking king who understands ambiguous sayings*will stand up. 24  His power will become great, but not through his own power. He will bring ruin in an extraordinary way, and he will be successful and act effectively. He will bring mighty ones to ruin, also the people made up of the holy ones.+ 25  And by his cunning he will use deception to succeed; and in his heart he will exalt himself; and during a time of security he will bring many to ruin. He will even stand up against the Prince of princes, but he will be broken without human hand.

Among those who will be brought to ruin could be his political opponents.

 

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How old are you Kosonen?

Your naivete bespeaks that you are in your mid 20's, having no idea whatsoever how things have ALWAYS worked.

Politics is war ... without the bloodshed.

It always has been.

HINT: stop watching NBC (Nothing but Clinton Network), CBS (Clinton B S Network), and ABC (Allabout Clinton Network), and the insane progressive Snowflakes, and get ANY AM  talk radio station ( available on the Internet), and LISTEN to what they have to say about current events.

You will learn more.

And more to the point, what you learn will be less likely to be wrong, so your ideas will be less like that of a brainwashed teenager with a mind full of mush.

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I suppose that's what happens when a person becomes part of the world and starts to dabble in politics :)  Even the old Elder himself, Mr Harley, seems knee deep in politics.  

 

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