Is it really necessary to preach as much as the WT organization urges?

[Kosonen]

Is it really necessary to preach as much as the WT organization urges?

Haven't we all felt that it is quite unproductive to go back to territories that we have worked through many times already? In a such case, could we not just focus on doing fine works and working on to put on the new personality? And make progress in becoming one with God and Christ and our brothers and sisters?

John 17:22 I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one. 23 I in union with them and you in union with me, in order that they may be perfected into one, so that the world may know that you sent me and that you loved them just as you loved me. 

What does the Holy Christian Greek scriptures really say?

First of all we should be reasonable. That is a quality that is strongly endorsed in the Christian Greek Scriptures. Philippians 4:5: Let your reasonableness become known to all men.

According to this quality of reasonableness it is said that wives with unbelieving husbands should not constantly preach to their husbands. 1 Peter 3:1: "In the same way, you wives, be in subjection to your husbands, so that if any are not obedient to the word, they may be won without a word through the conduct of their wives."

And what did apostle Paul say about going back to old territories? Romans 15:20: "In this way, indeed, I made it my aim not to declare the good news where the name of Christ had already been made known, so as not to build on another man’s foundation;  21 but just as it is written: “Those who received no report about him will see, and those who have not heard will understand.”

So we see that apostle Paul was not interested in preaching there where somebody already had preached. We should see that preaching is not a limitless activity. To the contrary when a territory has been worked through, then it is finished. 

Also Jesus told to enter a city and find the deserving ones. And that was it. He did not tell to come back to people that refused to receive the good news. Instead he instructed to show them that we are finished with them by saying: "Further, he said to them: “Wherever you enter into a home, stay there until you leave that place.  11 And wherever a place will not receive you or listen to you, on going out from there, shake off the dirt that is on your feet for a witness to them." -Mark 6:10

So in this way in the first century the territories were quickly covered and finished. 

Have you ever wondered why there is so little push for preaching activity in the letters to the congregations in the Christian Greek scriptures? That must be the reason. They had already covered their territories and the apostles did not see any need to push first century christians to go back to uninterested persons. Actually that would be against Jesus' instructions and that would be unreasonable.

Instead the letters to the congregations are filled with instructions on how to become a good and acceptable person for God. That is the thing the letters to the congregations are focused on.

Then there are also scriptures telling that the first century christians should always be bold to confess their faith in Jesus. But confessing faith in Jesus is understandably not the same as preaching. 

We understand that confessing faith means only that when we are asked if we believe in Jesus, we confess and say "Yes, I believe in Jesus". 

Philippians 2:11 "and every tongue should openly acknowledge [confess, Kingdom Interlinear] that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father."

Romans 10:9 "For if you publicly declare [confess, Kingdom Interlinear] with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and exercise faith in your heart that God raised him up from the dead, you will be saved."

1 John 4:15 "Whoever acknowledges that Jesus is God’s Son, God remains in union with such one and he in union with God"

Luke 12:8 “I say to you, everyone who acknowledges [confess, Kingdom Interlinear] me before men, the Son of man will also acknowledge[confess, Kingdom Interlinear] him before the angels of God."

1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Christ as Lord in your hearts, always ready to make a defense before everyone who demands of you a reason for the hope you have, but doing so with a mild temper and deep respect.

Hebrews 10:23 "Let us hold firmly the public declaration [confession, Kingdom Interlinear] of our hope without wavering, for the one who promised is faithful.24 And let us consider one another so as to incite to love and fine works,

Hebrews 13:15 Through him let us always offer to God a sacrifice of praise, that is, the fruit of our lips that make public declaration [confessing, Kingdom Interlinear] to his name.

16 Moreover, do not forget to do good and to share what you have with others, for God is well-pleased with such sacrifices.

Revelation 2:13 ‘I know where you are dwelling, that is, where the throne of Satan is; and yet you keep holding fast to my name, and you did not deny your faith in me even in the days of Anʹti·pas, my faithful witness, who was killed by your side, where Satan is dwelling.

Is it not evident, that where the territory once has been covered, there is no requirement to go back. But every time we are asked about our faith we confess that we believe in Jesus as our Lord and also that we believe that Jehovah is the True God.

What can we focus on instead? Hebrews 13:16 says: "Moreover, do not forget to do good and to share what you have with others, for God is well-pleased with such sacrifices."

Hebrews 10:24 And let us consider one another so as to incite to love and fine works,

Matthew 5:16 Likewise, let your light shine before men, so that they may see your fine works and give glory to your Father who is in the heavens.

Ephesians 2:10 We are God’s handiwork and were created in union with Christ Jesus for good works, which God determined in advance for us to walk in them.

Titus 3:8 that those who have believed God may keep their minds focused on maintaining fine works…...14 But let our people also learn to maintain fine works so as to help in cases of urgent need, so that they may not be unproductive.

1 Timothy 5:4 But if any widow has children or grandchildren, let these learn first to practice godly devotion in their own household and to repay their parents and grandparents what is due them, for this is acceptable in God’s sight. 5 Now the woman who is truly a widow and left destitute has put her hope in God and continues in supplications and prayers night and day.

9  A widow is to be put on the list if she is not less than 60 years old, was the wife of one husband, 10  having a reputation for fine works, if she raised children, if she practiced hospitality, if she washed the feet of holy ones, if she assisted the afflicted, if she devoted herself to every good work.

2 Thessalonians 1: 11 To that very end we always pray for you, that our God may count you worthy of his calling and with his power perform completely all the good that he pleases and every work of faith. 12  This is so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you and you in union with him, according to the undeserved kindness of our God and of the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 3:12 To such people we give the order and exhortation in the Lord Jesus Christ that they should work quietly and eat food they themselves earn.13  For your part, brothers, do not give up in doing good.

1 Thessalonians 4: 11 Make it your aim to live quietly and to mind your own business and to work with your hands, just as we instructed you, 12  so that you may walk decently in the eyes of people outside and not need anything.

Colossians 1:10 so as to walk worthily of Jehovah* in order to please him fully as you go on bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the accurate knowledge of God;+

Philippians 4:8 Finally, brothers, whatever things are true, whatever things are of serious concern, whatever things are righteous, whatever things are chaste,* whatever things are lovable, whatever things are well-spoken-of, whatever things are virtuous, and whatever things are praiseworthy, continue considering* these things.+ 9  The things that you learned as well as accepted and heard and saw in connection with me, practice these,+ and the God of peace will be with you. 

John 17:3 This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ. 

Yes, we can have lot of things to do in the Lord's work, without preaching on our territories after we have gone through them and found the worthy ones.

And have you thought about that nobody preached in Jerusalem the final 3 and half years before its destruction, because all christians had fled. 

 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

It's a way of controlling people. And the monthly reports are proof of the control that the GB etc, have over the congregants. Quite funny though that the message preached this year may be seen as 'old light' and a different message preached next year.  

[TrueTomHarley]

7 hours ago, Kosonen said:

nobody preached

What I like is that the third slave of Luke 19 approaches the master and hasn’t done a thing with his mina; he has hidden it in a cloth and offers the explanation that he knew his master was a harsh man, taking where he did not deposit and reaping where he did not sow.

The Master does not deny it! It’s a bad attitude, but he does not deny it. He does reap where he does not sow. He does reap disciples where he did not directly make them himself.

It is an unappreciative attitude that slave had but it appears that the master could have worked with it—‘just put it in the bank and I get the interest’ he says. Who knows where the slave picked up his rotten attitude?—maybe he was wronged somewhere In the past. It doesn’t matter. Just deliver the interest and the master can work with it. Depositing it in the bank is not much, but it appears that the Master could have worked with it.

The parallel illustration at Matt 25 has that “wicked slave” burying his master’s talent in the ground, working up a sweat so as to thwart his Master’s will. Why should anyone do that?

 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

Perhaps he planted the talent in the ground, hoping it would grow into a plant of "E Pluribus Unum" .. and he would be the guy, to go out and prune 'em.

[Kosonen]

18 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

What I like is that the third slave of Luke 19 approaches the master and hasn’t done a thing with his mina; he has hidden it in a cloth and offers the explanation that he knew his master was a harsh man, taking where he did not deposit and reaping where he did not sow.

Yes, I agree, Jesus our Master and Lord expects that we increase his belongings here on earth. And different disciples of Jesus are able to do that in different measures. And that is okey, as long we do our best. A bad thing would be to know Jesus and God and never talk about that to anybody. That would really amount to burying the mina.

We can have a lot to do in the Lord's work in different ways. After the territories have been worked out where we live, we have to find other productive ways to increase Jesus' belongings here on earth. Some few are able to move to a place where it has not been preached. But if you are not among them, then you can in a balanced way witness about Jesus informally to people you are aquinted with. Just a little not to annoy them. Personally I have done that a regularly. I have tried to find interest, but nobody has taken it seriously.

Then there is apostle Paul's recommendation to have children. Every believing child will add to Jesus' belongings on earth.

1 Timothy 5:14 Therefore, I desire the younger widows to marry, to bear children, to manage a household, to give no opportunity to the opposer to criticize.

1 Timothy 2:14 Also, Adam was not deceived, but the woman was thoroughly deceived and became a transgressor. 15  However, she will be kept safe through childbearing, provided she continues in faith and love and holiness along with soundness of mind.

Yes, that is a way to make disciples. I have because of that 5 children. 4 still living with us and the youngest is 7 years old. I try to make disciples to Jesus out of them. 

An other way is to make the congregation grow spiritually. There is surely a lot of work to do for everyone. And most important is to make personal spiritual growth, and as a by-product we will be much more productive in making spiritual growth around us. 

Then there is a possibility to contribute to a spiritual growth on the internet.

Also contributing funds to spiritual things furthers spiritual growth on earth. 

And we should believe in the power of prayer. We can contribute to spiritual growth by praying that it would happen more abundantly. I think that will give more work for angels.

So, there is very much we can do to cause spiritual growth without doing unproductive door-to-door witnessing in places where people are already familiar with us and not interested in serving God.

If we feel that we have little to do in the Lord's work, then we should pray to Jehovah God in the name of Jesus about that. And I am sure Jehovah will through Jesus find for us ways to be productive in causing spiritual growth on earth, to increase the mina. About that we can pray everyday, so that we get constantly productive work to do in the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always having plenty to do in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in connection with the Lord.

[TrueTomHarley]

In theory, I llke these remarks. In practice, I’m not sure that I do as much.

2 hours ago, Kosonen said:

Yes, that is a way to make disciples. I have because of that 5 children. 4 still living with us and the youngest is 7 years old. I try to make disciples to Jesus out of them. 

Didn’t you say that you did not go to meetings but that you thought it was a good thing that your wife and children did? This doesn’t quite make sense to me. If your wife and children are going to meetings then they will be dubious of your efforts to make disciples of Jesus out of them. They will say that Jesus leads his earthly organization that you have separated yourself from—exactly the terms of which either you have never said or I missed it. For now, I will assume that you have simply gone inactive with regard to the congregation that your wife and kids think Jesus directs. 

Will that really help them become disciples of Christ? Or are they not praying that they may somehow be able to help you to become more fully a disciple of Christ?

I’m going to make a few assumptions. They’re probably wrong, but they make a good composite picture. Bear with me. You certainly do not hesitate to speak with authority so bear with me if I do as well.

You downgrade the importance of preaching and you upgrade the importance of fine works in other ways. You upgrade the importance of raising children apart from public preaching. You upgrade the importance of interpretation and have spun a theory about how the matters of Revelation will turn out. I think it is far-fetched for reasons already given—primarily by JWI—not me. But it certainly reflects contemplation on the scriptures. Indeed, all I did was ridicule it and I count it very much to your credit that you did not get indignant with me on that account. 

I think you’re a little embarrassed about the earthly organization and maybe about the brothers in any given Kingdom Hall. I think you are disappointed that so many of them are not more students of God’s Word than you think they ought be. You are turning verses over in your head, but many of them are not. “What has the organization said?” suffices for many of them.

Plainly you are tired of the preaching work and tired that for so many it is rather ineffective. ‘It may be cumulative but, for any given individual, can’t they find more effective ways to serve?‘ seems be your attitude. If you have five children, then you are surely frustrated that so much teaching is geared for those who don’t have any children at all—at most one or two. “Yeah—give each of these guys (GB members) one or two teenagers and then see how that would affect how they carry themselves!” a friend of mine who raised three teens (two took to the truth, one did not) muttered. 

I will speculate that you were an elder but as certain things did not go your way, you no longer are. Go back to the congregation. Regain the confidence for acting a spiritual head ought, per the definition of your wife and kids. Bring your gift to the altar. It is other than that which is stressed today, but that does not mean that it is not a gift. Don’t worry about being an elder again. Focus on the basics and the freedom that you have to unbuild. There are so many things that, as appointed men, they have to do, but you do not. Support them, but you can look around and visit, unbuild in a way that they can’t always get to as quickly and sometimes not at all.

Just between me and you, when I first saw the online study course, I said: “Good! Now we can hold off on spoon-feeding people the basics and engage with them at a higher level.” I even wrote that I looked forward to the time when I would say—it would have to be just the right circumstances—“I don’t want to study the Bible with you—do it yourself!” When we keep ourselves immersed in the milk because that is as far as we get in teaching most people, it makes us babes ourself—and you are anything but a ‘babe.’

I don’t think the ministry is as pointless as you say. Yes, much territory is well-worked and yes, people know who we are, but I don’t think they know it very well. At least two reasons you did not mention argue strongly for keeping the present course—new adults are formed daily, and new circumstances prompt people to reappraise. I think we are not particularly effective in how we present the good news. As I grow older, with bills paid, kids gone, more freedom to both copy and innovate, I come up with new methods of door to door that almost instantly break down barriers. Such as telling people how it works with Jehovah’s Witnesses—on the 100th call, I will ask them to join our religion, and what are the chances it will go so long? In the meantime, it is just conversation. I’ve seen people visibly relax at that—now that they know the score, they need not fear that every word they say somehow digs them deeper into a pit of expectation that they will not be able to extract themselves from without unpleasantness. (unfortunately, some of our people give exactly that impression) The point is I think we can be much more effective than we are. This one here about speaking to the evangelical works, too:

https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/forums/topic/86486-speaking-with-the-evangelical/

No, the preaching work is going to define the organization and I think you must get your head around that. “This good news of the kingdom will be preached.....and then the end will come” will always be the theme. ‘Anyone hearing the voice of the Lord, let them also say ‘come’ It’s the way it is. You are not going to get away from it. You give your wife and kids the appearance that you are trying to, however. Better if you don’t do it, I think. Accept that the guys who get the “honor” will be the guys who push the preaching work, which you, by the simple reason of having five kids, will not be able to be in the forefront of. Accept that the guys running the show are “unlearned and ordinary.” They always have been. They always will be. Christianity is a working class religion. Use your considerable talents—evident by the way you conduct yourself—to build up the body of the Christ. If you are outside the congregation arrangement, then in the eyes of your wife and kids, the body doesn’t know where you are. You are like a severed member.

[Kosonen]

@TrueTomHarley Thanks Tom for your kind reply. It is conforting that you have thought so much about me and my situation. And it is true that my family goes regularly to the meetings. I was ministerial servant and I had been pioneer for 5 years. And I have mostly been very zealous for God's will. But then 15 years ago I felt that the WT literature and meeting programs do not help me to make any new spiritual progress. A whole year went, and I looked back and I saw that I had not progressed in anything. But one WT article suggested that we pray to Jehovah God so that he might teach us more. I thought that would help, because I wanted to make spiritual progress. So because I knew the literature so well already, I decided instead to read the Bible and hope that Jehovah would lead my thoughts and let me understand something new while I read the Bible. Often, sometimes everyday I learned something new. I remarked scriptures I had previously just not payed attention to. 

So after 3 years after I had understood so much new, I was enough courageous to speak about those things to brothers and sisters. And I reasoned that I should not hide a more accurate knowledge, because Jesus said  "and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."(John 8:32) I thought that brothers and sister would understand, because I based all that on scriptures I had found. And I thought that this would be a beginning of a reajustment of the Jehovah's witnesses, and that Jehovah and Jesus would make it succeed. Because all this was for the sake of the truth. And God and Christ love truth. 

Sadly it did not go as planed. I got disfellowshipped. The elders did not refute my arguments. One even said, "you might be right, but this is not allowed. We have to obey the Governing Body." I thought what? Because the WT organization had taught how important it is to follow the principle apostle Peter told: "In answer Peter and the other apostles said: “We must obey God as ruler rather than men." (Acts 5:29)

When we can see clearly in the Bible that something the WT organization teaches is not right, we should be allowed to speak out. 

So I sticked to the principles I had learned. And the elders disfellowshipped me. 

So I have nothing to repent for, for what I was disfellowshipped. So I will not be reinstated as long as the WT organization continues like this.

But I am hopeful. Jesus said: "Happy are you when people reproach you and persecute you and lyingly say every sort of wicked thing against you for my sake. 12  Rejoice and be overjoyed, since your reward is great in the heavens, for in that way they persecuted the prophets prior to you."(Matthew 5:11,12)

 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

A great example of how wrong the GB / Elders and JW Org are

And remember that they teach that a person MUST BE a BAPTISED JW to be SAVED.

So it is as if they have deliberately killed you @Kosonen 

Not just spiritual murder, but if Armageddon came it would physical murder. Those Elders and / or Circuit Overseer would be blood guilty. 

And one even said  We have to obey the Governing Body. 

Most JWs here probably will not believe you, or at least don't want to believe you. Some even say that you don't have to obey the GB. But proof of the pudding .....  

[Kosonen]

22 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

And remember that they teach that a person MUST BE a BAPTISED JW to be SAVED. 

Hi 4Jah2me, I acknowledge that it has been distressing for me. But I am hopeful in expectation for what will come. The situation is quite similar in a spiritual sense to how it was in Jesus' days. Jehovah's witnesses say you must be a Jehovah's witness to be saved. But that is not fully correct. More correct would be to say that a JWs background is good to have for salvation. That is similar to what Jesus said to the samaritan woman: 

"You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, because salvation begins with the Jews. 23  Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him. 24  God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.”

Like in the first century the first true christians had a jewish religious background, so I believe a the "great crowd" mentioned in Revelation 7 will have mostly if not completely a Jehovah's witness background. 

And just like Jesus came and ended the old covenant and started a new organization, the christian congregation, so something new will come out of Jehovah's witnesses. 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

Quote @Kosonen " And just like Jesus came and ended the old covenant and started a new organization, the christian congregation, so something new will come out of Jehovah's witnesses."

I'm in agreement with you on this. but the 'something new' needs to be now. World conditions are bad and getting worse, but could last another ten years, but there has to be a large in gathering before the 'end comes'. And I'm convinced in my mind that the true Anointed will play a bigger part, not the GB. 

But if the GB / Org are right (and I don't think they are) about being baptised then the baptism has to be the right one, 'in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. NOT in the name of JW Org. 

I also think that a Bible background is needed but not a JW interpretation. 

My other feeling is that Yahweh is correct not Jehovah, but some might say that is just a technicality. 

Maybe a new org, 'Yahweh's Servants'...........  just a thought.  

 

[Kosonen]

14 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

But if the GB / Org are right (and I don't think they are) about being baptised then the baptism has to be the right one, 'in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. NOT in the name of JW Org. 

 

Yes, it is strange that they have added unnecessary baptismal questions. Especially about if we acknowledge the WT organization. The elders asked me accusingly at the judicial commitee: "Did you not get baptised to be a Jehovah's witness and to be obedient to the WT organization?" May be the wording was not exactly that, but the sense was that. But I did never consider my dedication and baptism to be to the WT organization. Because the WT clearly says that our dedication is a personal thing. We dedicate ourselves to God, and not to an organization and that our baptism is a public declaration of our dedication to Jehovah God. 

[Kosonen]

On 1/26/2020 at 7:12 PM, 4Jah2me said:

And the monthly reports are proof of the control that the GB etc, have over the congregants. 

The WT organization claims that they follow the example of the first christians in the first century. But they did not have in the first century monthly reports of hours spent on preaching. One could ask why? Well I have not found evidence in the Bible that they preached repeatedly on their surroundings after once they had gone through their territories.