Jump to content
The World News Media

Recommended Posts

  • Member

Greetings to all from one who has not visited here in a while. I hope this winds up in the right heading(!), and I hope the bros. and sisters who visit here more regularly than I do are well and have Jah’s blessings.

Something has come up that surprised me, and I know that certain people here might have input.

First, a background: for some years now there has been some contentious discussion among certain academics, namely, between Evangelical types and others outside of their perspective on the status of Jesus in his pre-existence. Of course, the Evangelicals with their fourth-century high Christology don’t have it right. For those who don’t know, Bart Ehrman, who certainly has no respect for Jehovah, grew up in the Evangelical fold but left it and embraced agnosticism. He’s basically viewed as an apostate by the Evangelical world, though not in the same way as a worshiper of Jehovah would view an apostate. Since that time, Ehrman has used his knowledge and academic position to attack Evangelicalism frequently. He has a blog where he does this, as well as in his published books.

Another academic who regularly tries to rebut Ehrman is Larry Hurtado, a full-fledged Evangelical who runs his own blog. Hurtado recently died after a long struggle with leukemia, so his blog, while still up, has and will have no more new posts.

Here is an example of the dialogue regarding Jesus’ pre-existence as an angel:

https://ehrmanblog.org/christ-as-an-angel-in-paul-2/

One of the points is the correct understanding of Gal. 4:14b. The NWT reads, “but you received me like an angel of God, like Christ Jesus.” While the organization has often cited passages like 1 Thess. 4:16 (“with an archangel’s voice”), I cannot recall the Society ever using the Galatians passage on this matter of Jesus having been the foremost angel. I checked the old Make Sure and Reasoning books, and the old 1930-1985 index as well. Surely this passage is legitimate to use to help show that Jesus was Michael in his heavenly existence prior to becoming a human.

Does anyone know whether the bros. at Warwick are even aware of all this?

Best to all.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Views 127
  • Replies 2
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

  • Member
16 hours ago, indagator said:

While the organization has often cited passages like 1 Thess. 4:16 (“with an archangel’s voice”), I cannot recall the Society ever using the Galatians passage on this matter of Jesus having been the foremost angel.

I never thought of it that way. I always took it to mean, 'you treated me like an angel or even like Jesus Christ.' I don't doubt the possibility of reading it as if an equivalence between angel and Christ however. (Even if not an equivalence between Paul and angel and Christ, of course.)

It's a little like Zech 12:8 in the LXX.

And, btw, great to see you here again.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Member
4 hours ago, indagator said:

Does anyone know whether the bros. at Warwick are even aware of all this?

Not that verse specifically, but I certainly am aware of Bart. He is the GreatCourses lecturer who I’ve been listening to lately. He has replaced some unsavories here who I  promised to myself not to engage anymore. God never takes away without giving something better

No sooner does Bart say something blockheaded and I think of starting up an article on it than he says something even dumber. He is the newer, better, improved version of the “apostate”—it is no more than “apostates lite” up till now.

For the most part I have not named him, but have just called him The Professor. It is not about him but the role he plays. Like the Watchtower seldom naming names, as soon as you name a villain you created the impression that removing that villain solves matters. Instead, another villain immediately steps into his shoes and the show goes on.

Here is his quip when speaking of Pax Romana: “I always tell my students [at Chapel Hill] that if there is a perfectly good English term for a concept, you are better off using the Latin term so everyone will know you’ve been to the university.“ It is just a quip but in that quip lies all the pretensions or our ridiculous times. “How can you believe, when you are accepting glory from one another and you are not seeking the glory that is from the only God?” says Jesus. (Jn 5:44)

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Similar Content

    • By Diakonos
      One thing that has always puzzled me is this: what happened to the spirit creature Michael when Jesus was conceived/born as a human? We are told that Jehovah transferred Michael's life pattern into Jesus in much the same way as God will do for those who are resurrected. This would mean that when Jesus was alive on earth there was no Michael in heaven. As we do not believe that humans have a spirit, in the accepted sense of the word, the question remains, what happened to Michael during Jesus earthly presence?
    • By Jesus.defender
      IS JESUS ‘MICHAEL THE ARCHANGEL’?

      Watchtower Teaching WT claims that Daniel 10:13,21; 12:1; and I Thess 4:16 teach that:
      1) Jesus existed as Michael the archangel before his birth to Mary; then
      2) Jesus gave up his spirit existence as an angel when he entered Mary’s womb to become a human;
      3) At the resurrection he was recreated as Michael the archangel.
      They describe Christ’s progressive existence as angel, then human, then angel.
      ‘Michael, one of the chief princes’ (Daniel 10:13). ‘Michael your prince’ (Daniel 10:21).
      ‘Michael the great prince’ (Daniel 12:1). JWs think that Jesus must be Michael because of
      Michael’s authority over other angels as a chief prince.

      The WT teaches that Jesus Christ was Michael the archangel, who was born as a human, died and was raised up as an archangel again. They refer to Jesus Christ as Michael the archangel.
      (Watchtower, 15 Feb, 1979, p.31).
      Bible Teaching:
      1) Michael is ‘one of the chief princes’ (10:21), but Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son in
      John 3:16. ‘Begotten’ in Greek is ‘monogenes’ meaning uniqueone of a kind. Michael
      being ‘one of the chief princes’ means that he is just one among a group of chief angels.
      Ask: Where is Jesus called a ‘chief Prince’ in the Bible?
      Ask: Where is Jesus clearly mentioned in Daniel 10:13?
      Ask: Isn’t Jesus as ‘King of kings and Lord of lords’ (Revelation 19:16) much higher in authority than one of a group of chief princes?
      2) Ask: ‘To which of the angels did God ever say ‘thou art my son’?’ (Hebrews 1:5)
      3) The Bible mentions Michael the archangel five times as:
      1. ‘Michael, one of the chief princes’ (Daniel 10:13)
      2, ‘Michael, your prince’ (Daniel 10:21)
      3. ‘Michael, the great prince’ (Daniel 12:1)
      4. ‘Michael the archangel . . . durst not bring against him (the devil) a railing accusation, but said The Lord rebuke thee’ (Jude 9)
      5. ‘Michael and his angels fought against the dragon’ (Revelation 12:7)
      Ask: Which of these verses state that Michael is Jesus Christ? None of them.
      4) The WT claims support from I Thessalonians 4:16 ‘the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call,with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet’(NWT)
      Ask: If using an archangel’s voice makes Jesus an archangel, then having God’s trumpet makes Jesus to be God.
      Note: I Thessalonians 4:16 doesn’t explicitly say that Jesus Himself speaks with the voice of the archangel. When Jesus comes from heaven to rapture the church from earth, He will be accompanied by Michael the archangel. It is the archangel’s voice that shouts, not Jesus’ voice. Jesus doesn’t shout, but Michael does shout. This is like what happens at the end of the seven year tribulation, when Jesus returns ‘from heaven with his mighty angels’ (II Thessalonians 1:7).
      If angels accompany Christ at the end of the 7 year tribulation, then clearly Michael will accompany Christ at the rapture before the 7 year tribulation, so Michael cannot be Jesus.
      5) In Jude 9, Michael did not have the authority to rebuke Satan, but Jesus did have the authority as follows: Jesus said ‘Get thee hence, Satan’ (Matthew 4:10) and ‘Get thee behind me, Satan’ (Mark 8:33)
      Michael said to Satan,‘The Lord rebuke thee’, proving that the only one with the authority to rebuke Satan is God. So, Matt. 4:10 proves that Jesus Christ is the Lord God.
      Ask: Since Michael could not rebuke Satan in his own authority, but Jesus could and did rebuke Satan, doesn’t that mean that Michael and Jesus are different persons?
      6) All the angels (Michael included) are commanded to worship Christ. (Hebrews 1:6)
      7) The writer of Hebrews asks several questions about angels and Jesus Christ, which prove them to be different persons:
      i) ‘Unto which of the angels said he at any time, thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee?’ (Hebrews 1:5)
      ii) ‘To which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?’ (Hebrews 1:13)
      iii) ‘Unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come (millennium)’ (Hebrews 1:13).
      iv) ‘For verily, he took not on him the nature of angels’ (Hebrews 2:16)
      v) Does Michael sustain all things by the word of his power? (See Hebrews 1:3). No!
      vi) Is it right to honour Michael the archangel just as you honour the Father? (John 5:23)
      ? Ask: Do good angels refuse worship? (Certainly). When John fell down to worship the angel, the angel rebuked him, saying ‘See thou do it not ....worship God’. (Rev 22:8,9).
      The Father commands all the angels (Michael included) to worship Christ. (Heb 1:6).
      The ‘proskuneo’ worship that angels refuse to accept but say to give to God, the Father commands this same ‘proskuneo’ worship to be given to the Son. Hence the Son cannot be an angel, but must be God. True Bible students soon discover that Jesus is no mere angel, but God. This lesson must be learnt so they may ‘honour the Son just as they honour the Father’. (John 5:23 NWT).
      9) Jesus Christ is unchangeable: ‘Jesus Christ the same, yesterday and today and forever’. (Hebrews 13:8). The WT view of Jesus is that He was Michael who changed to become a man, and who at his resurrection changed back to Michael the archangel.
      The Watchtower Jesus is changeable. They have a false and different Jesus.
      10) Jesus Christ created all the angels, including the thrones and principalities of which Michael is a chief prince of a principality. ‘For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers’. (Colossians 1:16).
    • By Brother Rando
      The Book of Daniel is the angel Gabriel’s witness to Daniel about God’s Kingdom.  Gabriel gives details about God’s Kingdom, what that Kingdom will do for mankind, and he witnesses about the coming Messiah and identifies to Daniel who the Ruler of God’s Kingdom would be.
      “In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it alone will stand forever,” (Daniel 2:44)
      “You should know and understand that from the issuing of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Mes·siʹah the Leader, there will be 7 weeks, also 62 weeks. She will be restored and rebuilt, with a public square and moat, but in times of distress.  “And after the 62 weeks, Mes·siʹah will be cut off, with nothing for himself.” (Daniel 9:25-26) The Hebrew word Messiah is translated ‘Christ’ in English.  The prophecy mentions “7 weeks, also 62 weeks”—a total of 69 weeks.  Therefore, the prophetic 69 weeks amount to 69 units of 7 years each, or a total of 483 years. If we count from 455 B.C.E., a period of 483 years takes us to the year 29 C.E. That was exactly the year when 
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  (Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ) The Jews in 29 CE where in expectation of the arrival of the Messiah!  “Now the people were in expectation and all of them were reasoning in their hearts about John, “May he perhaps be the Christ?”  (Luke 3:15)
      In the final Chapter of Daniel, Gabriel gives detailed information about the Ruler of God’s kingdom that would mark the End of the Gentile times.  At that time, “
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ” ended, and Jesus Christ was installed as God’s heavenly King. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. —Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. .  The prophecy is detailed to Daniel in the following scripture from Gabriel. “During that time Miʹcha·el will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of your people. And there will occur a time of distress such as has not occurred since there came to be a nation until that time. And during that time your people will escape, everyone who is found written down in the book.” (Daniel 12:1) Yes in 1914, Michael the Great Prince stands up to begin Ruling as King of God’s Kingdom.  Michael is the Mighty God in Isaiah 9:6, the Prince of Peace, the Angel of Great Counsel who is Wisdom in Proverbs 8.  Michael is the one Philippians spoken of has being given the Name. “Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus,  who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.  No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and became human.  More than that, when he came as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death, yes, death on a torture stake” (Philippians 2:5-8)
      For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name,  so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground—  and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:9-11)
      “And she gave birth to a son, a male, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod. And her child was snatched away to God and to his throne.” (Rev 12:5)  “And war broke out in heaven: Miʹcha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled  but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven.  So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.” (Rev 12:7-9)
      Notice what the following verse calls Michael. “I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
      “Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the Kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God!  And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death.” (Rev 12:10-11)
      “the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16)  Commanding Call, an Archangel’s Voice and with God’s Trumpet all point to the Word of God, the Lord himself Jesus Christ.  “As for you, Daniel, keep the words secret, and seal up the book until the time of the end. Many will rove about, and the true knowledge will become abundant.” (Daniel 12:4)
      Then Gabriel tells Daniel: “Go, Daniel, because the words are to be kept secret and sealed up until the time of the end.  Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will act wickedly, and none of the wicked will understand; but those having insight will understand.” (Daniel 12:9-10)
      “If, in fact, the good news we declare is veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing,  among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.” (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)
      “For we are preaching, not about ourselves, but about Jesus Christ as Lord and ourselves as your slaves for Jesus’ sake.” (2 Corinthians 4:5)  “For if you publicly declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and exercise faith in your heart that God raised him up from the dead, you will be saved.  For with the heart one exercises faith for righteousness, but with the mouth one makes public declaration for salvation.” (Romans 10:9-10) “And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.” (Matthew 24:14)
      This is a small synopsis of the scriptures of the glorious good news about the Christ.  To gain understanding to keep on living: “Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God, so that he may exalt you in due time,  while you throw all your anxiety on him, because he cares for you.” (1 Peter 5:6-7)
      For a Free Study of the Bible, click 
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.




×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Terms of Service Confirmation Terms of Use Privacy Policy Guidelines We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.