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WHY .... doesn't Jehovah God consider warfare ... murder?

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WHY .... doesn't Jehovah God consider warfare ... murder?

It seems clear to me that Jehovah allows civil governments to run their own affairs as they see fit, and even has no objection to them judging and executing wrongdoers ... and even commands us to be in subjection to these governments, as even the very worst of them are better than anarchy.

People generally misinterpret the scripture that say " Thou shalt not kill." where the scripture more actually says "Thou shalt not murder".

There is a very real difference.  A sovereign government, executing a wrongdoer is implementing the political will of that government ... whether it be a government the size of a continent .. or an extended family sized tribe of Jewish sheepherders living way out in the middle of nowhere, living in tents, governed by a patriarch.

I have not been able to find in the Bible where actual warfare, committed by any sovereign group, is considered to be murder ... either by the perpetrators of the war, or the defenders of the war against them, except in the case of "war crimes" against non combatants and other cases.

Did you know it is legal to drop napalm on civilians in war, from an aircraft ... but not from a flame thrower from a soldier on the ground?

....but I digress.

Even people that warred against the Jews  were not considered murderers..... they were considered warriors.

I am working on getting this all straight in my mind now ... as there seems to be a profound truth buried in this stream of thought, somewhere, but I cannot get it to crystallize, or perhaps it is approaching 3AM, and I am too tired to think about it.

But whatever it is that is ... what profound basic principle that I am missing ...is based on having a correct answer  as to WHY ... WHY does God NOT consider warfare to be murder.

I suspect when I figure it out, it will be like driving down a road in a southerly direction, thinking you are going North ... and then you see that landmark or sign that indicates you are really going South ... and that feeling you get when your whole frame of reference rotates in your head, like the world just rotated 180 degrees.

It's like deja vu, and geography, combined.

Perhaps my premise is faulty, but I don't think so.

Please feel free to destroy my premise, or my stream of thought, or my conclusions.

I try to be "loyal" to whatever is true, and not an agenda of defending an agenda.

Knowing "WHY?" things are the way they are, is the key to good philosophy.

Bad philosophy will waste our lives, which are pitifully short.
 

 

 

 

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Jesus changed everything.  The law was a ' tutor' to christ.   So now we must love our neighbours as he did.  He gave his life for his friends  - we must be able to do the same. 

If I love you in this way and you love me in this way, the world will be a wonderful place. However, most people are not prepared to give up their own ego and their own selfish goals to serve Christ properly -  let alone give their life for someone else. 

If you are prepared to give your life it actually means you value their life  as your own..... giving more than what is expected. 

James 4: 1 "What is the source of the wars and fights among you? Do they not originate from your fleshly desires that carry on a conflict within you"

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25 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

 

WHY .... doesn't Jehovah God consider warfare ... murder?

It seems clear to me that Jehovah allows civil governments to run their own affairs as they see fit, and even has no objection to them judging and executing wrongdoers ... and even commands us to be in subjection to these governments, as even the very worst of them are better than anarchy.

People generally misinterpret the scripture that say " Thou shalt not kill." where the scripture more actually says "Thou shalt not murder".

There is a very real difference.  A sovereign government, executing a wrongdoer is implementing the political will of that government ... whether it be a government the size of a continent .. or an extended family sized tribe of Jewish sheepherders living way out in the middle of nowhere, living in tents, governed by a patriarch.

I have not been able to find in the Bible where actual warfare, committed by any sovereign group, is considered to be murder ... either by the perpetrators of the war, or the defenders of the war against them, except in the case of "war crimes" against non combatants and other cases.

Did you know it is legal to drop napalm on civilians in war, from an aircraft ... but not from a flame thrower from a soldier on the ground?

....but I digress.

Even people that warred against the Jews  were not considered murderers..... they were considered warriors.

I am working on getting this all straight in my mind now ... as there seems to be a profound truth buried in this stream of thought, somewhere, but I cannot get it to crystallize, or perhaps it is approaching 3AM, and I am too tired to think about it.

But whatever it is that is ... what profound basic principle that I am missing ...is based on having a correct answer  as to WHY ... WHY does God NOT consider warfare to be murder.

I suspect when I figure it out, it will be like driving down a road in a southerly direction, thinking you are going North ... and then you see that landmark or sign that indicates you are really going South ... and that feeling you get when your whole frame of reference rotates in your head, like the world just rotated 180 degrees.

It's like deja vu, and geography, combined.

Perhaps my premise is faulty, but I don't think so.

Please feel free to destroy my premise, or my stream of thought, or my conclusions.

I try to be "loyal" to whatever is true, and not an agenda of defending an agenda.

Knowing "WHY?" things are the way they are, is the key to good philosophy.

Bad philosophy will waste our lives, which are pitifully short.
 

 

 

 

 

If you truly believe that war is ok with God then I think you have a problem with your way of thinking.

What God allows and what God likes / agrees with, are probably two totally different things. 

We know that God does not involve Himself in the daily running of the world. The 'world' belongs to the Devil and God has no interest in 'putting little bits of it right'.   

You say that God "has no objection to them .... executing wrongdoers"

Do you have proof of that ? 

Quote "People generally misinterpret the scripture that say " Thou shalt not kill." where the scripture more actually says "Thou shalt not murder". "

Quote " A sovereign government, executing a wrongdoer is implementing the political will of that government ... "

Then that same government that conscripts people into the armed forces is doing likewise. But I presume your disagree with conscription ? 

I think the idea of being a Christian in one sense, is that we take Bible truth and learn from it. By doing so we try to live by Bible principles. One such principle is. 

‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’

    Hello guest!
 38  This is the greatest and first commandment. 39  The second, like it, is this: ‘You must love your neighbour as yourself.

Jesus here quoted from the LAW given to Moses. But as Christians we should live by the principles of that law. 

‘You must love your neighbour as yourself. 

So, you must decide who your neighbour is James ? 

Could you be loving your neighbour if you were deliberately entering their land with intention of killing them ? 

Stop being American James. If you are a true servant of God then you are no longer American.  Jesus said His Kingdom was no part of this world. So James, just a kind suggestion, stop being part of this world. 

 

 

 

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I think I know what your trying to say..but perhaps I’ve got it wrong....

I may very well have this wrong but Jehovah is in actual fact engaged in warfare now.

Revelation 12:7then war broke out in heaven and Michael and his angels fought against the dragon and his angels.

He was forced Into a state of warfare since Satan rebelled.

Joshua 5:13,14 Identifies Michael as his Prince of Jehovah’s army....and also ...

when the Israelites came out of Egypt they marched out in Military formation.

even when the angel stood guard at the Garden of Eden ..he used a flaming sword ( weapon of war ) to block their re entering 

warfare carried out by Jehovah is righteous ..

warfare carried out by mere man for mans ruler ship over man is not righteous nor condoned by him, he would still consider that murder...as all warfare is governed and caused by his enemy Satan a man slayer And the ruler of the world at this time.

He is only tolerating mans warfare or allowing it because it is not his appointed time....

He uses humans as earthly agents to achieve his plan...when it suits him...and that involves warfare at times because Satan is using man to fight his war against Jehovah.

Proverbs 16:4,,,Jehovah has made everything work for his purpose even the wicked for the day of disaster.

At this present time Satan is the Prince of air and ruler of this world and he has chosen to fight by warfare.....he chose the weapon...not Jehovah .

All warfare is murder unless it has been instructed to be carried out via the  Chief of His Armies Michael.

Jehovah would never condone warfare amongst men,..and from what I have read he would consider all of those deaths a unwarranted evil murder.....

I cannot find anything in the scriptures at this stage to suggest otherwise...but by all means if I’m wrong please correct me....it’s a interesting question and it’s deeper than most of us realize.

Basically all those Jehovah instructed to be put to the sword were allowed hundreds of years to change and he allowed them to go to the fullness of their error....they had become irredeemable in his eyes...and hurting his people and name and his plan....and they would NEVER change.

 

 

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4 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I am working on getting this all straight in my mind now

I was pretty sure you had already broken into the Watchtower HQ and added the last sentence to a paragraph in a very recent Watchtower we just studied: (November 2019)

*** w19 November p. 17 par. 13 Are You Maintaining Your “Large Shield of Faith”? ***
13 Imagine the scene. A group of soldiers spend the morning training with their swords, but one of their company is missing. That soldier is in town setting up a food shop. In the evening, the soldiers spend time inspecting their armor and sharpening their swords. But the one who owns the shop spends his time preparing food to sell the next day. The next morning, however, an enemy launches a surprise attack. Which soldier is more likely to act appropriately and earn the approval of his commanding officer? And whom would you want standing beside you—a soldier who focused on being prepared or the one who was distracted?

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1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

But the one who owns the shop spends his time preparing food to sell the next day.....And whom would you want standing beside you—a soldier who focused on being prepared or the one who was distracted?

I love pizza!

Isn’t that what the old hen used to say when she wanted us to stay on topic? Glad she’s on my side.

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28 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Why?" ....

Our warfare now is only spiritual.   

However, the entire world under satan's control is still committing pre-meditated murder by training to kill others in war.   Jehovah will judge  each one of them if they do not repent by taking advantage of Jesus' ransom sacrifice.

The world and its war will soon disappear when jehovah removes all those who benefit from war.

 

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1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

So far ... no one has answered the question "Why?" .... but have used many words not to.

Because you have made an untrue statement pretending it is a question, and people are not being drawn into it. 

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2 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

So far ... no one has answered the question "Why?" .... but have used many words not to.

I might be reading you wrong but I think the answer is that once God allows human governments to exist, he pretty gives them free reign. It is not for nothing that the Bible likens them to wild beasts. 

He allows them to exist for just the reason you stated—virtually any human government is better than anarchy. But they are not his idea. To referee them would suggest that they are. Sometimes I read Matthew 24:14 and explain that the end that will come is not that of the earth, for it did nothing wrong. It is the end of a system of 200 eternally squabbling nations pushing at each other—surely that was not his idea. But he lets it remain. It beats the alternative. It is a stopgap until “thy kingdom comes.”

Can it do things that are murderous? Well, sure—but the entire arrangement is murderous, a rebellion against God. Even though it is a best-case scenario of that rebellion, it is still murderous. God doesn’t get in there and mediate every little thing—it’s not his arrangement and he interferes hardly at all.

One place where he did interfere is covered in this week’s Bible reading—in God’s promise to Abram. I don’t know about you, but for me an early question that had to be addressed when I began studying the Bible was, “Why would God slaughter the Canaanites—man, woman, and child? This passage helped:

Know for certain that your offspring will be foreigners in a land not theirs and that the people there will enslave them and afflict them for 400 years....But they will return here in the fourth generation, because the error of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure. (Gen 15:13,16)

He gave them 400 years advanced warning! Granted, it’s not everything. It doesn’t quite cover the little children. But I used to explain that when children die today due to parental neglect, people don’t blame God—they blame the parents. Same here—it was for parents to train their children and they neglected to do it. Of course, today people blame God for everything, so the above line doesn’t wash as it once did. 

I wrote a post long ago about why God permits suffering, and an atheist I would swap comments with couldn’t stand it. It hadn’t been written with him in mind. It had been full of appeals to the scriptures, none of which he accepted. So I began to wonder if it couldn’t be repackaged in a way that would appeal to an atheist. I rearranged everything, squashed some ideas, elevated others, and  came up with the following. It is more or less relevant here. See what you think:

    Hello guest!

 

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In Croatian we don't have two sort of words as in English (murder vs kill) so i had to help myself a little with few google searching.

 

murder

noun -  the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

 

kill

verb - to cause someone or something to die

 

Question

One from my 5-year-old girl after hearing about Bin Laden: What’s the difference between being murdered and being killed?
Maxine, Kew

Answer

** Definitive **
Name: Laurence, Chiswick
Qualification: Criminal barrister
Answer: If whoever shot and killed him believed they were working in self-defense, then it would be a killing and not murder – and self-defence can be a pre-emptive strike. We’ll obviously never know what his motives were.

Name: Joe, Battersea
Qualification: Not enough
Answer: If you murder somebody, your intention would be solely to kill them. If your intent wasn’t to kill them but you do, then it is not considered murder. Murder is a killing where the intent is proved.
(James O’Brien: You’re right. But this doesn’t answer how the killing of Bin Laden wasn’t murder.)

Name: Michael, Grayshott
Qualification:
Answer: I think it’s a killing We are in a de facto state of war with Al Qaeda. The action in Afghanistan is sanctioned by the UN. The mission would have been to capture or kill Bin Laden.
(James O’Brien: But under the Geneva Convention, you’re not allowed to shoot an unarmed man, are you?)

WHY .... doesn't Jehovah God consider warfare ... murder?

In case of Israel Nation perhaps because of this:

Rules for War

20 “When you go out to battle against your enemies, and you see horses, chariots, and many more people than you have, you must not be afraid of them. The Lord your God is with you—and he brought you out of Egypt.

“When you go to the battle, the priest must go to the soldiers and speak to them. The priest will say, ‘Men of Israel, listen to me! Today you are going against your enemies in battle. Don’t lose your courage. Don’t be troubled or upset. Don’t be afraid of the enemy. The Lord your God is going with you to help you fight against your enemies. He will help you win!’...............

“When you go to attack a city, you must first offer peace to the people there.  If they accept your offer and open their gates, all the people in that city will become your slaves and be forced to work for you.  But if the city refuses to make peace with you and fights against you, you should surround the city.  And when the Lord your God lets you take the city, you must kill all the men in it.  But you may take for yourselves the women, the children, the cattle, and everything else in the city. You may use all these things. The Lord your God has given these things to you.  That is what you must do to all the cities that are very far from you—the cities that are not in the land where you will live.

16 But when you take cities in the land that the Lord your God is giving you, you must kill everyone.  You must completely destroy all the people—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites. The Lord your God has commanded you to do this. 

It can be said how to murder "enemies" who don't want to be your slaves was justified and legalized under Israel Legislative. Israel had Civil Government, and Enemies also had Civil Government. It seems how Israel Government has expanded the term "wrongdoer" not only for own people, but wanted to become Policeman for surrounding nations too .... and to colonized them. 

"To Murder enemies" is concept that existing in mind of God. Prophesied "enmity" in Genesis book must have only one solution: Us or Them. Murder is only option. Winner will interpret this act as "legal". Coexistence is not possible.

In Bible terminology, God created Sovereign Government. But in the same time devil done the same, and God never (in Bible text) negate fact and reality how he also constitute Sovereign Government. If God allowed him to even start something as Rebellion Movement it is interesting how God also allowed him to Legalized  that same Rebellion. Devil has Territory, has Subjects, has Law - and that for sure is fundamental precondition to form Sovereign Government.  

If Final Solution will come someday in the future, perhaps that will be fight between this two Legal and Sovereign Entities. Warriors (on one or both side) who will die in the battle will die with pride for king and homeland :)))

This is just one aspect that first came to my mind after reading Your topic :)) 

 

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It is OBVIOUS to me that Jehovah does not consider warfare to be murder ... and I have no wars planned, or any murders planned .... I am just trying to understand the theocratic legal principle of WHY?.

As far as I know ... no nation on Earth considers warfare to be the same as premeditated murder, either ....  although it is premeditated killing of humans.

They are using the same criteria that Jehovah God established millennia ago .... and which will be used at Armageddon.

OTHERWISE....

Jehovah God would be a murderer.

See the problem?

 

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 James I think you must be bored. 

no nation on Earth considers warfare to be the same as premeditated murder, either .... "

But every nation ON the Earth is 'part of this world' that belongs to the Devil. So why would a Christian even care about the nation's viewpoint. The nation's viewpoint is the Devil's viewpoint. That is why there is so much war.

Are you concerned because America was built on mass murder. Well the British Empire was also built on mass murder too. BUT if we are Christians  WE are no part of that world...

So, Jesus said 'Love your neighbour as yourself'. Neither God nor Christ gives us permission to kill or murder anyone. No matter what the 'world' says is right.

But when the Judgement arrives then God / Christ and the angels, will carry out ' premeditated killing of humans '.  They have the right to do so, we do not. They know how to judge, we do not. 

 

 

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4 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

no nation on Earth considers warfare to be the same as premeditated murder, either

This makes us the only nation on earth which is different.  Isaiah 2:2-4 clearly states that the worshippers of 'Jehovah' would flock together to his spiritual temple from all over the earth and  " learn war no more".   We are true christians because other Christian's still go to war and kill (or approve of it under the excuse of nationalism.)  1 John says that if you love jehovah you will love your neighbour. Who is your neighbour?  Everyone. 

To go back to the time of Israel: I know of only one time jehovah allowed Israel to do pre-emptive war.  As Mr Harley above quoted the scripture:  the amorites were so wicked that jehovah wanted them exterminated .....but still gave them 400 years ( to hopefully change.).... until their extreme wickedness warranted the severe  punishment.    Remember, the canaanites were innocent child slayers........ each life they took had an accounting with Jehovah....... and that is apart from all the other degenerate sex worship and practices. Israel would remove them from the land but in this action they would have to prove their faith in jehovah to help them in combat and also show obedience to do it thoroughly.

Jehovah allowed Israel to grow into a nation in captivity in Egypt - not in Canaan. In Canaan they could have broken into tribes or gone after canaanite gods. This not only preserved their unity but allowed them to grow strong as a nation while having protection of another great military power.  They had their own area where they lived in the Nile delta (separated) until they were oppressed by Pharoah because they grew mighty in numbers.

Jehovah did not take Israel out of Egypt by direct route through philistine territory because he was afraid that they would not face up to war immediately after leaving.  Read it this week in bible.  He took them via the red sea and fought the battle for them.  Pharoah's army perished.   The nation left the most powerful country on earth - in PEACE - with no war.  That was a miracle!

After having jehovah pamper them with food, giving them a cloud to lead them by day and night, and other miracles which proves that He exists - they initially still did not have the faith and courage to fight the Canaanites.  They then spent an extra 40 years wandering the desert because they did not have enough faith......  They feared the Rephaim.  (Goliath was a rephaim). Those 40 years of  wandering forged them into a strong nation ready to take on the task ahead.  War was hand to hand combat.  Each individual needed to build their faith.

The war with the amelekites was a defence war because the amelekites came down to attack them when they asked to pass through their land on the highway peacefully.  After this the fear of the God of  Israel came upon Jericho. 

All other times Israel went to war it was in defence.  jehovah allowed them to defend themselves after they had been severely oppressed....... because they had fallen into the extremely dirty false worship of the land.

The philistines did not allow Israel to have impliments to sharpen their agricultural equipment.  The Medianites used to raid their food so that Gideon worked at night..... so it was not easy for them until they cried to jehovah and another judge was called up to free them.

David was in trouble with jehovah because he had a sensus taken of the able bodied men who could fight. Pestilence then made the numbers of the sensus uncertain. Jehovah did not want them to think of war.  While they served him they would be safe.   David was not allowed to build the temple because he was a man of war. 

They were not supposed to make alliances with other nations to fight war - or fight their wars for them with other alliances.  They were supposed to trust in jehovah exclusively.

The 12 tribes went to war in hand to hand combat but the levite priests did not - they were holy - separate. 

Solomon collected chariots and horses but it was against the instructions of jehovah.....

So their are many indications in the old testament which tells us how jehovah feels about war.  

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5 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

It is OBVIOUS to me that Jehovah does not consider warfare to be murder

Manslaughter then. They’re still going to pay for it come the Great Day.

5 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

using the same criteria that Jehovah God established...which will be used at Armageddon. OTHERWISE....Jehovah God would be a murderer. See the problem?

No. I don’t. 

The NY driving instructor asked how many in his class thought driving was a right and how many thought it was a privilege. Some thought one, some the other. The answer is that it is a privilege—screw it up and they’ll take it away. Same with Jehovah, the Giver of life

Human governments take life away. They are not the giver of it, though. They abuse their authority. They’ll pay. But their entire existence is an abuse of authority, so when it comes to killing people—throw it on the stack.

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10 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

So far ... no one has answered the question "Why?" .... but have used many words not to.

They have brother...and it shouldn’t require to much insight to see that...perhaps you may need to rephrase the question

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James he is the creator of the Law...without him no law....no creation...no mankind...

as such he can decide who’s life to end and who’s not to because they are not following his Laws.

Thus  the lawmaker has the right to take a life without it  being classified as murder,

You yourself have used many words to ask a question which really as someone pointed out to you... answered yourself...which leaves me laughing at myself for being so crazy to reply to this thread...but it is a question that others have asked so I’ve gleaned from others here on how to help someone who has the same question.
Job 37:23

Understanding  the Almighty is beyond our reach
He is great in Power and  he never violates his justice and abundant righteousness.

But you already knew all this didn’t you.


 

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For whatever it’s worth, If I see evidence of military service at someone’s home, I will ask about it. When there is a plaque that a son or daughter is a proud Marine or Navy or Army member, I’ll make the point that you cannot have anything but respect for someone willing to lay his life on the line for what he believes in. If there is some old fellow who identifies with any branch of military service, I’ll hear him out. Everyone has a story to tell, but nobody wants to hear it. I’ll hear them out—providing I’m not keeping an entire car group waiting as I do so. 

If someone’s flag is all wrapped up around the flagpole—the way the wind will do that—I’ll unwrap it while waiting for them to answer the door. And if I see a flag flying in tatters, I get mad—if you’re going to do it, do it right.

I think of that experience—it was published in one of the old yearbooks, I think, of the teacher, for some sort of a civics lesson, telling a Non-Witness and a Witness child to salute the Canadian flag. The first did. The second did not. Next came the direction to spit on the flag. The first did. The second did not. “Why don’t you spit on the flag?” the question was asked, “you didn’t salute it.” The answer was that the flag was a national symbol and as such should be treated with respect, even if not given an act of worship that Witnesses consider a salute to be—the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that way as well. But maybe more telling is the “patriotism” of the first child, who salutes on command and spits on command.

There is often a vague mutual respect between members of the military and members of Jehovah’s Witnesses, each of whom recognizes that the other is not rabble and is amenable to discipline. They also recognize about each other that neither harbors racism—people rise and fall independent of race (speaking of the American military here—I’m not in position to testify as to other nations). And it was at the 1958 Divine Will International Convention in New York City (Yankee Stadium & adjacent Polo Grounds) that the U.S. military sent observers to report on how it was possible for Witness volunteers to provide a full-course meal to their quarter-million conventioneers within a short noontime interval—this as related in a Special Report on that event that can be googled and downloaded. (this info supplied by B.F. Shultz, the researcher who is never wrong, who is lauded for “almost a fanatical attention to detail.”)

Since Jehovah’s Witnesses are politically neutral and will not wage war, one might surmise that any encounter with a militarily aligned householder will prove disagreeable, and this can happen. But it doesn’t have to happen, and usually does not by approaching the person with respect and reference to the above points. Often it can be worked into conversation how odd it is that an individual is serving his country with great feeling and sacrifice, yet if he were in any other country, he would feel exactly the same way with regard to that country—and isn’t it strange that the earth should be divided up that way? Many military and especially veterans are mellowed with their service. I wouldn’t want to go up against a General Patton, who wanted to shoot anyone sitting out the fray, but most are more reflective. My own father, who was a WWII vet and who left religion as a young man and never returned, commented  (to my surprise) on the small town square war memorial of the hamlet we were passing through, “They shouldn’t do this—it just glorifies it.”

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29 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

one might surmise that any encounter with a militarily aligned householder will prove disagreeable, and this can happen

I have already told my story on this forum. How I was interrogated when I became an American citizen.  My interviewer was hostile  because I requested for the clause to defend USA to be omitted.

I did not push bible verses on him.  I had already determined that he was a great patriot and replied accordingly.  I said that I have such great respect for life because this is all we have from God - our life is precious.   I answered that it is a pity that some people have given everything they have to the country they love and are fired when they have emotional issues due to deployment. Some do not receive all the medical care they need (this was the case at the time) and I added that they come home in body bags and the press is not allowed to honor them in death by photographing their return.  

The day he gave me my citizenship he was all smiles when he congratulated me.

My father also fought in North Africa, Italy, went to Japan with the Americans and fought in Korea.......  these people do not like war to be glorified. 

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1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Everyone has a story to tell, but nobody wants to hear it. I’ll hear them out—providing I’m not keeping an entire car group waiting as I do so.

Have to admit I have never been alert to flags and war memorabilia, but I'm sure it puts the householder at ease to let them talk about it. Of course, if they are older and there is a picture of a younger son, I am prepared to learn about a worst-case scenario, and to talk about the resurrection hope. The image you invoke above made me revisit all those times I had to come back to the car and say I was sorry. Haven't done that for years, and then only when the car group was a group of pioneers who appreciated the break. But we never work that kind of territory anymore in the suburbs. We even keep RVs down to a minimum,until they become studies. Back when pioneering, I spent most of my time sitting down with RVs and BSs, but now we barely ever go inside a house.

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I think of that experience—it was published in one of the old yearbooks, I think, of the teacher, for some sort of a civics lesson, telling a Non-Witness and a Witness child to salute the Canadian flag.

That was 1990, and repeated a couple of times since then. A great experiment, but one that would get the principal and teacher fired. One thing that story made me think about is how it is a terrible story to try to prove that those who salute are "worshiping" the flag. After all, would a teacher and principal ask a student to spit on the very thing they are worshiping? Would they announce to an entire class that they had just asked a student to spit on an object of worship, and announce that one of them had done so?

For that matter, the same goes for those who fly it in tatters, and I've seen plenty of those.

In spite of all this, the point we make about flag salute, in general, is still very appropriate. The flag is a national symbol that directs attention to the "nation" as if it were a god. The flag is treated exactly like the symbols of gods in those nations that worship pagan gods and their idols. Even the national music that is intended to build up the reverential focus of the nation as a god serves the same purpose. (I like that Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego heard the national music as the signal to worship a new national idol, and that they were often referred to as the three Hebrew children in Babylon. A helpful reminder to school age children who face something similar.)

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

the U.S. military sent observers to report on how it was possible for Witness volunteers to provide a full-course meal to their quarter-million conventioneers within a short noontime interval

That was always amazing, and similar comments from outsiders were announced at the end of many of the assemblies. (Rank-and-file Bethelites, of course, often noticed a lot of other similarities with the military. Especially during those years when it was a four-year enlistment, and they would worry about being dishonorably discharged.)

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

But it doesn’t have to happen, and usually does not by approaching the person with respect and reference to the above points.

Excellent reminder.

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

yet if he were in any other country, he would feel exactly the same way with regard to that country

That's certainly brave. There are places where even angels fear to tread!

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

“They shouldn’t do this—it just glorifies it.”

And glorified for what purpose? Probably an acknowledgement that more wars are likely on the horizon, and that future wars would not get the kind of support they "require" get without such glorification of those in the past.

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1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

We even keep RVs down to a minimum,until they become studies. 

Around here there are quite a few that do just the opposite—focus on return visits—and you know the challenge of finding return visits home. It drives me nuts, and I am adamant not to be part of a large car-group, sometimes even a van, doing it. Occasionally I am outmaneuvered and when that happens I lose all interest in the ministry, take the back seat in the van, and nap or compose a blog post.

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

That was 1990, and repeated a couple of times since then. A great experiment, but one that would get the principal and teacher fired.

I would think so. The only way I could get my head around it was to read it was in a different country.

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

similar comments from outsiders were announced at the end of many of the assemblies.

The concluding speaker told how a cop had said, with regard to some pretty obnoxious protestors, “Why don’t you just pop them one?” As to the one of the military monitoring mealtime, I had just about concluded that it was an urban legend—I had a Mormon tell me something similar about his people—but then Shultz told me where it was published. 

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

Have to admit I have never been alert to flags and war memorabilia, but I'm sure it puts the householder at ease to let them talk about it.

We all get better at handling challenging situations as we age ourselves. Running into the clergyman is another—or a group plainly immersed in conversation and directly in your path. One fellow eyed me cautiously as I approached. He was lugging heavy boxes from a moving van. “You look like someone that wants to talk about the Bible!” I said jokingly. He laughed so hard he nearly dropped the box.

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With the help of b4ucuhear from the JW closed club, using  what I had understood from the December 22, 1978 AWAKE!, which I had forgotten where I learned it, many years ago, it shows that Jehovah God does not consider, and never has considered warfare to be murder.

Every sovereign nation , tribe, and civilized people, however organized, hold this exact same viewpoint today.

What I am trying to do by asking "WHY?", is trying to separate sound  reasoning from the universal noise of crappy personal philosophy, and a million words that say nothing of value .... like Job's three elder friends that tried to console him, but in three days, had NOTHING worth saying worth recording in the Bible.

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b4:

Thanks for the reference .... this exactly agrees with my original premise ... that Jehovah God NEVER considered warfare murder, and that PRINCIPLE extends even to today ... and that is the way it SHOULD be viewed.

Here is the quoted material , for your convenience.

It is crystal clear, and unambiguous ... even though it does not comment outside of the limited scope under consideration.... which is the point I was making, making direct application of the PRINCIPLE.

G78 12/22 pg. 27-28 article "Did God Mean 'Thou Shalt Not Kill?'

" The Bible’s View

Did God Mean “Thou Shalt Not Kill”?

WHO has not heard someone say, ‘In the Ten Commandments God commands, “Thou shalt not kill”’? During recent wars some men gave that as their reason for refusing to fight. It also comes up in discussions of capital punishment.

Yet others refer to this command when trying to show that the Bible is contradictory. One booklet with that aim has a heading “Killing Forbidden” and lists “Thou shalt not kill. (

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.)” but then calls attention to cases in which God told the Israelites to execute others. (
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) And Jehovah directed the Israelites to exterminate enemy nations. (
    Hello guest!
    Hello guest!
    Hello guest!
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) So did God really command, “Thou shalt not kill”? What does the sixth of the Ten Commandments mean? And does it categorically rule out warfare and capital punishment?

The phrase “Thou shalt not kill” sounds familiar to most persons for that is how some popular Bibles render

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. (
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) If, though, you look up this text in many modern translations, you will likely find “You must not murder” or “You must not commit murder.”
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Why the difference?

The original Hebrew word involved is ratsahh, which literally means “to break” or “to dash to pieces.” In his Hebrew lexicon, scholar John Parkhurst explains that in the Bible ratsahh “denotes manslaughter or murder, i.e. either the accidental or wilful taking away of a man’s life.”

It is noteworthy that of the 47 times ratsahh is used in the Hebrew Scriptures, 33 involve Israel’s cities of refuge. These served in cases where one man took another’s life. If it was determined judicially that the manslaughter was unintentional, the manslayer could remain in the city. But if legal investigation showed that he killed with malice or deliberateness, he would pay with his own life. With these two possibilities in mind, notice how ratsahh is appropriately rendered three times:

“As cities of refuge they will serve for you, and the manslayer must flee there who fatally strikes a soul unintentionally. . . . Now if it was with an instrument of iron [deliberately used as a weapon] that he has struck him so that he dies, he is a murderer. Without fail the murderer should be put to death.”—

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.

Other verses indicate that ratsahh usually applied to the taking of human life unlawfully, contrary to God’s law. Observe the associated things mentioned in

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: “There are the pronouncing of curses and practicing of deception and murdering and stealing and committing of adultery that have broken forth, and acts of bloodshed have touched other acts of bloodshed.”—
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.

As shown above in the punishment for the deliberate murderer, not all taking of human life was considered ratsahh (murder), nor would it be prohibited by the sixth of the Ten Commandments. After the flood Jehovah God pointedly told Noah: “Anyone shedding man’s blood, by man will his own blood be shed, for in God’s image he made man.” (

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) Yes, even before he gave a law code to Israel, God permitted capital punishment. “Shedding man’s blood” by murder was what was forbidden by the Sixth Commandment, not the legal execution of a murderer.

This helps us to appreciate the use of ratsahh in connection with King Ahab. The king coveted Naboth’s vineyard and let the man be killed to get it. It was not a case of King Ahab’s directing a legally justified execution of someone who had committed a capital offense in Israel. Rather, it was an illegal killing of a man, something forbidden by the Sixth Commandment. Ahab thus was a “murderer” and deserved to die.—

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.

But what about war? Were Israel’s wars in violation of God’s command that is fittingly rendered, “You must not murder”?

No, they were not. The fact is that the Bible never uses the term ratsahh (murder) regarding any of those wars. When the Israelites warred at God’s command, they were not acting illegally. They were authorized by and were being directed by the Supreme Lawgiver. (

    Hello guest!
    Hello guest!
) These wars were not wars for limitless territorial conquest, like so many of the national wars in recent times. They were not wars motivated by economic greed. Nor were they wars that violated legally arranged peace treaties or non-aggression pacts, as have some wars in modern history.

Absolutely no nation on earth today is composed entirely of persons worshiping Jehovah, miraculously directed by him through prophets and having a Divine grant to possess a certain portion of the earth. But all of that was the case with ancient Israel. Jehovah had noted that the inhabitants of Canaan were steeped in iniquity, being morally depraved and deserving of execution. (

    Hello guest!
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) As the owner of the entire earth, God determined to give the land to the nation of Israel. And, under the direction of leaders he specially chose, God used Israel to carry out his judgment against the Canaanites.—
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.

Hence, in executing Jehovah’s legal and morally upright judgments, or when defending their God-provided land, the Israelites were not guilty of violating the command, “You must not murder.”

What about Christians? Since the Sixth Commandment merely restated what God had said earlier through Noah to the whole human family, we are still obliged to avoid murdering. In fact, the closing chapters of the Bible warn us that unrepentant murderers will experience eternal destruction in the “second death.” (

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) How important it thus is to avoid sharing in taking human lives without God’s specifically stated authorization. Consistent with this,
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prophetically describes God’s true worshipers, saying: “And many peoples will certainly go and say: ‘Come, you people, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will instruct us about his ways, . . .’ And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. . . . Neither will they learn war anymore.”

Furthermore, Christians are alerted to the fact that murders issue from a bad heart. (

    Hello guest!
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) If a person allowed hatred for a fellow Christian to develop in his heart, he would as much as be a manslayer or a murderer, something that we must avoid.—
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.

So the rendering “Thou shalt not kill” does not truly convey the real flavor of the Sixth Commandment. It is more properly translated “You must not murder.” Appreciating this aids us to see that Israel’s righteous wars did not violate that command. And we can better sense its significance as to our conduct and attitude toward taking human life.

[Footnotes]

New World Translation, Today’s English Version, The New English Bible as well as translations by Moffatt, Fenton, T. F. Meek and R. Knox. "

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The idea just occurred to me, trying to answer the question of "WHY?" .... it is because if warfare were considered murder ... there would be no legal basis to make peace!

EVER!

Those who won the war would be obligated to exercise retribution ( or justice... according to "local" winner's standards ..) on those who killed THEIR combatants. .... and THERE NEVER COULD BE PEACE, AS ALL ENEMY COMBATANTS, AND THOSE SUPPORTING THOSE COMBATANTS WOULD HAVE TO DIE, AS CONSPIRATORS,  AIDING AND ABETTING MURDER.

If warfare were considered by Jehovah God to be murder ...or the nations, tribes, and peoples considered warfare to be murder ... there could NEVER be any peace, and the healing of wounds, and forgiveness.

Remember stories of American and Japanese soldiers getting together after World War II, at a bar, and sharing stories of how they were once bitter enemies, killing each others on the battlefields?

I know DOZENS of stories like that ... of forgiveness, and healing, and letting bygones be bygones, BECAUSE ...

. it is UNIVERSALLY recognized that warfare is NOT murder.

That includes the viewpoint of Jehovah God.

NOW ... I know WHY!

 

...

 

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@James Thomas Rook Jr. after reading Awake article some thoughts came out. 

After the flood Jehovah God pointedly told Noah: “Anyone shedding man’s blood, by man will his own blood be shed, for in God’s image he made man.” (

    Hello guest!
Yes, even before he gave a law code to Israel, God permitted capital punishment................

But what about war? Were Israel’s wars in violation of God’s command that is fittingly rendered, “You must not murder”?

No, they were not. The fact is that the Bible never uses the term ratsahh (murder) regarding any of those wars. When the Israelites warred at God’s command, they were not acting illegally. They were authorized by and were being directed by the Supreme Lawgiver. (

    Hello guest!
    Hello guest!
) These wars were not wars for limitless territorial conquest, 

.....(my add: yes they took territory :))

What about Christians? Since the Sixth Commandment merely restated what God had said earlier through Noah to the whole human family, we are still obliged to avoid murdering. .....(and to add again - capital punishment is legal and permitted by God, as article concluded)

Now, what about Christians today. Article using terminology "Christians", and not JW's or WT or JWorg and similar.  God have, according to Romans, His own arrangement and system how to punish wrongdoers. And that is SECULAR AUTHORITY. This is His SERVANT. But not only in Individual type of crimes, but about all sort of crimes on Global scene, on nationals levels. 

When one group, tribe, nation, fight against another one, for what ever reason, and murder number of individuals, they are guilty for taking their life. So, they need to be punished. Perhaps that can be reason for some group, tribe, nation to fight back and go to war. As article say, this is "Noah Law".

Well now, we have Romans epistle where God say how "Christians" are under Secular Authority Law, because they are His Servant to Punish crimes. Who can, have to punishing wrongdoers? Those who are Authorized? Who was given this Authorization? To Secular Authority, to Government in every single Nation.  

To make it short. "Christians" ares allowed to work under Secular Authority as executor of Government's orders about Capital Punishment decisions. If JW's consider self as the same as in article's terminology - "Christians", then JW can be policeman, executor of death penalties, or soldier in the army who working under Secular Authorities commands and instructions, wright or wrong, justice or injustice, because they are under God's appointment and His will to make free decisions. Because they will answer to God, not to JW member. 

In other words, JW member is not Authorized to questioning decisions made by Secular Authorities in the same way as he/she JW is not authorized to questioning GB doctrines and instructions.   :)))))

Well, can we choose who will we listen more, Secular Authorities or GB? Yes, we can choose to listen our conscience and free will. And take consequences for that, of course :)))

 

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What a load of bunkum. It seems that JTR Jr is looking for a way to gain peace of mind desperately, from any one he can.  Does James worry that he is still American and that America goes to war and murders people ? 

ANY true Christian that is trying to serve God properly, is no longer 'part of this world'.  So they are no longer of an earthly nationality. If they serve God properly they are part of God's Kingdom.

So WAR IS MURDER if you are a true Christian. 

We as Christians are not under the Mosaic Law so why even consider it ? 

The Nation of Israel existed for a few purposes, but mainly to 'produce' Jesus. God wanted that nation to survive but the Nation turned against God, killing Jesus, so God had that Nation destroyed.

But none of that relates to the true Christian personality of today. 

Where is the spirituality on this forum ? Where is the Faith ? Where is the Love ?

The same in the JW Org and Watchtower society, no Faith, no Love, and no SPIRITUAL MEN.

Quote " using  what I had understood from the December 22, 1978 AWAKE!, which I had forgotten where I learned it, many years ago, it shows that Jehovah God does not consider, and never has considered warfare to be murder. "

WRONG. What it shows is that MEN who are NOT INSPIRED, have written such. It proves nothing only that you are prepared to rely on the word of MEN. 

James you seem to have an agenda. But you seem to have made your decision even before you asked any questions. Where is your Wisdom ?

This bit is almost funny Quote "  Christians are alerted to the fact that murders issue from a bad heart. "

And are you saying that WAR doesn't issue from a bad heart ? 

Wars begin with hate, greed, dishonesty, love of power, love of self, and possibly love of murder.

 

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4Jah2me:

What I have said is crystal clear and unambiguous.

You just cannot wrap your mind around what I am actually saying, from the noise of what you THINK I might be saying.

Because your thought processes are agenda driven, you assume mine are also.

If they are, I am totally unaware of what that agenda might be.

However, this is a common problem.

it is crystal clear to me, that a million words and "buzz scriptures" to the contrary (scriptures that sound good as long as you do not try to make direct application, to a SPECIFIC circumstance ...), that Jehovah God DOES NOT consider legitimate warfare between any organized group of people to be murder.

It's like when the Democrats tried to impeach President Trump by charging him with "Abuse of Power", and "Obstruction of Congress".

This is something that the Voters should decide, because the STANDARD for impeaching a President ... overturning the expressed will of the majority of States in the Republic ... was if he was guilty of "High Crimes and Misdemeanors", of which he was CLEARLY NOT GUILTY ... as no one EVER charged him with violating ANY specific law.  Basically, he was impeached, but acquitted of all charges against him.

Had it not been a weaponized indictment to keep him from competing in the 2020 Presidential Elections, which it was ( I watched full weeks of it, in its entirety), and been a legitimate impeachment, he STILL would have been acquitted, as he did not commit a crime that ACTUALLY EXISTED.

Since Jehovah God DOES NOT consider legitimate warfare between any organized group of people to be murder, my ONLY concern is trying to understand the legal principle of ...... WHY?

After the American Civil War, between the States, Abraham Lincoln granted Amnesty to all those who committed treason against the Union, by warring against the Union, and peace was restored.

Murders on BOTH sides were NOT forgiven

To the best of my knowledge and belief, this is exactly how Jehovah God considers the making of war, and the making of peace.

And exactly how he considers murder.

all other discussions, that are not involved in getting the answer to WHY? ... are beside the point.

If you can show me a clear, unambiguous scripture that says Jehovah in any way considers warfare to be viewed as, and reacted to, as first degree, premeditated murder, I will accept that, and of course HAVE to change my viewpoint.

Until then ... everything else is ONLY opinion.

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As I can no longer be bothered to be drawn into the problem you have with yourself, I'll just let it go.

You seem to have the same problem as many on here.

You are a 'physical man' not a 'spiritual man'. You lack faith in the things you cannot see.

And you are still part of this world, just like Tom and Aurana. Still talking politics. 

11 pm in England. Goodnight

 

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I notice you DID NOT provide any scriptural proof for your fuzzy opinion.

Without such proof, your opinions are just that .... opinions ...

...and to paraphrase ... "like bodily orifices, everyone is entitled to at least five, depending on how they are counted."

dt141031.gif

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.... AND WITHOUT FURTHER ADO ... an observation about this, from the "JW Closed Club". ... and of course an observation on the observation .....

 

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.... there is a REASON why people, believing that the Earth is being supported on the back of a giant Turtle, come to that firm belief, and defend it against the logical impossibility of it, by ALSO rationalize it with .... " ... it's Turtles ... all the way down."

 

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You have a problem that only you can deal with James. I didn't even bother to read the above. 

You seem to have a need for warfare to be ok, just as you seem to have a need to have a house full of firearms. 

I think both are part of the American Dream, so as I suggested but you ignored, it is better to be no part of this world. 

Being no part of this world would mean having no need for warfare or firearms.

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People who DELIBERATELY do not read ....

3 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

You have a problem that only you can deal with James. I didn't even bother to read the above. 

.... will forever remain ignorant.

My condolences.

You are doomed to a lifetime of error, and sloppy thinking.

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33 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

People who DELIBERATELY do not read ....

.... will forever remain ignorant.

My condolences.

You are doomed to a lifetime of error, and sloppy thinking.

Maybe my spiritual thinking advises me when to stop reading certain things. 

I had read enough on this topic to know what you were saying, I don't need to know more. 

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2 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I can always depend on you to prove, in your own words, John,  my conjectures.

It's not your judgement I need be concerned about. 

But a spiritual man will know that war is still murder in the eyes of Almighty God. 

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36 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

t's not your judgement I need be concerned about. 

But a spiritual man will know that war is still murder in the eyes of Almighty God. 

4J;

There is a very simple way to determine whether or not your statement is true .. or is just a cultural tradition that the unexamined mind believes to be true ... but is not.

1.) Show me a clear and unambiguous Scripture, anywhere in the Bible where God considers warfare to be the same as premeditated murder, or

2. Show me a clear and unambiguous Scripture, anywhere in the Bible, where the homicides in warfare are treated by God with the same response that is called out for premeditated murder..

If you cannot do that ... then what you know to be true in your heart, and down to your very bones to be true, is nothing but cultural acclamation, which became a part of your personality because of unexamined thinking.

...that .... is a euphemism for "fantasy".

... of no more value than KNOWING that Kryptonite will kill Superman, another cultural fantasy.

 

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4 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

4J;

There is a very simple way to determine whether or not your statement is true .. or is just a cultural tradition that the unexamined mind believes to be true ... but is not.

1.) Show me a clear and unambiguous Scripture, anywhere in the Bible where God considers warfare to be the same as premeditated murder, or

2. Show me a clear and unambiguous Scripture, anywhere in the Bible, where the homicides in warfare are treated by God with the same response that is called out for premeditated murder..

If you cannot do that ... then what you know to be true in your heart, and down to your very bones to be true, is nothing but cultural acclamation, which became a part of your personality because of unexamined thinking.

...that .... is a euphemism for "fantasy".

... of no more value than KNOWING that Kryptonite will kill Superman, another cultural fantasy.

 

James, what your above comment shows is that you are a physical man not a spiritual man.

I note that you have a need to keep referring to earthly things, not spiritual ones

Therefore, as on the door to door ministry, I will just walk away and let you believe what you need to believe at this point. In six months time your attitude may be different, but right now you have that need. 

 

 

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I noticed about some Bible verses and reports about some events where taking other people life is issue this:

In some events, according to Bible,  God making fire from heaven, earthquake, flood, angels warriors or similar and killed few or many people.

In some other events, perhaps there is more such reports, God told, command particular people to kill other people, under various and different circumstances.

From this we can conclude, how people who belong or think they belong to only true religion or organization can't know for sure: will their God told them to stay still and watch, or will He command them to take action. God showed two side of his will.

In old Israel they had professional soldiers, but before they came to have professional army, many were simple ordinary workers. And they learned skills. JW people today not learning such skills, but for sure learning how to use "theocratic warfare" methods .... and that can be lethal too. (Not reporting CSA to secular government and shunning policy can have for sure very bad results). 

 

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In the final part of the days,

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The mountain of the house of Jehovah Will become firmly established above the top of the mountains,
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And it will be raised up above the hills, And to it all the nations will stream.
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  And many peoples will go and say:“Come, let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah,To the house of the God of Jacob. He will instruct us about his ways,And we will walk in his paths.
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For law
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 will go out of Zion,
And the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem.
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  He will render judgment among the nations And set matters straight
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 respecting many peoples.
They will beat their swords into plowshares And their spears into pruning shears.
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Nation will not lift up sword against nation, Nor will they learn war anymore. 

Luke Chapter 10

v 29 But wanting to prove himself righteous,

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 the man said to Jesus: “Who really is my neighbour?”

v 36 Who of these three seems to you to have made himself neighbour to the man who fell victim to the robbers?” 37  He said: “The one who acted mercifully toward him.” Jesus then said to him: “Go and do the same yourself.”

Matthew 5 v 43 through 48

 “You heard that it was said: ‘You must love your neighbor

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 and hate your enemy.’ 44  However, I say to you: Continue to love your enemies and to pray for those who persecute you, 45  so that you may prove yourselves sons of your Father who is in the heavens,
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 since he makes his sun rise on both the wicked and the good and makes it rain on both the righteous and the unrighteous.
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 46  For if you love those loving you, what reward do you have? Are not also the tax collectors doing the same thing? 47  And if you greet your brothers only, what extraordinary thing are you doing? Are not also the people of the nations doing the same thing? 48  You must accordingly be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

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Today, warring nations often appeal to God for support. But God does not take sides in today’s wars. Instead, in his Word, the Bible, he clearly states: “Return evil for evil to no one,” and, “Do not avenge yourselves.” (

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) Moreover, he has made known that mankind should “wait patiently for him” to take action, which he will do at Armageddon. (
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, footnote) When the nations fail to wait for God to act and instead resort to warfare, he views such wars as presumptuous acts of aggression that bring his displeasure. Thus, at Armageddon, God will express his indignation and settle the nations’ disputes once and for all by “bringing an end to wars throughout the earth.” (
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) Indeed, Armageddon will be the war to end all wars.

This whole Watchtower article make it clear that humans have no right to go to war. It makes it very clear that only God has the right to decide when and how war should take place. 

James, your own org' are showing you that human warfare is murder. 

When the nations fail to wait for God to act and instead resort to warfare, he views such wars as presumptuous acts of aggression that bring his displeasure.

If it's presumptuous acts of aggression, then it is premeditated. And war is always premeditated because it takes planning.  Premeditated killing in this way (acts of aggression) is murder.

But more importantly it is in opposition to Almighty God. 

Romans 12 v 21

 Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good.

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3 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

James, your own org' are showing you that human warfare is murder. 

 

3 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

When the nations fail to wait for God to act and instead resort to warfare, he views such wars as presumptuous acts of aggression that bring his displeasure.

Jehovah views warfare as homicide ... he does NOT consider it murder ... and nothing you have posted shows that he does consider warfare the same as murder.

Nothing at all.

Interesting scriptures about all kinds of aspects to warfare, and the eventual OUTLAWING it, from God's viewpoint ... but NOTHING that shows Jehovah considers warfare to be murder.

Apparently you do NOT know the difference between homicide ... and murder .... and have ONLY your opinion to offer.

That is all.

Nothing more.

You have NOT offered a clear and unambiguous scripture to support your position ... BECAUSE THERE ARE NOT ANY..

Until you understand the difference ... you will NEVER be able to answer the ONLY thing I am interested in .. which is ... WHY?

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The question above is crafted very carefully  to avoid the main question: whether Jehovah allows any form of war or killing.  Especially after his Son paid the ransom sacrifice and told Peter to put away his sword - plus other scriptures which prove that christians are no part of the world otherwise they would fight.  Our fight is a spiritual warfare. Jesus was put to death because he did not become an earthly king to fight the Roman's.

Roman's 11: "  48 If we let him go on this way, they will all put faith in him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.”

Romans 14:8  "For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah."  9 For

The  above question is designed to create a choice for either killing or murder - so no matter how  one answers it, it still looks as though war is acceptable because it is not murder.....so killing is acceptable......

A very sneaky question..... It reminds me of satan's question to eve:  you are not allowed to eat from ALL the trees in the garden......? .

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5 minutes ago, Arauna said:

so no matter how  one answers it, it still looks as though war is acceptable because it is not murder.....so killing is acceptable......

Does he want to eliminate the requirement that Christians refrain from wars? Is that what he is driving at?

I should take the time to figure out myself whether he is advocating that, I know, but he is not being particularly transparent, he is distracted by answering a number of dubious characters, I am always waiting for the other shoe to drop with him in the form of a staggeringly disrespectful cartoon or quote, and I am up to my ears in my own projects. Other than that, I have no excuse for not having deciphered this more accurately.

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Arauna, and TTH :

It is a very simple, carefully crafted question to isolate one specific principle, from the full spectrum of high volume noise that surrounds this issue.

Most people think the Ten Commandments say "Thou shalt not kill." .... and it doesn't.

I says "Thou shalt not MURDER"

There is a very real difference between one, and the other ... just as there is a very real difference between your personal culpability if you accidentally hit a child on a bicycle while driving, and kill them .... and if you drive up onto the sidewalk, and deliberately kill the same child.

There are cases when killing IS ACCEPTABLE, should you choose to exercise your natural right of self defense, that all living things have as a natural right, and if you choose to do so, and are able to manage overcoming your adversary with deadly force ... there is absolutely no blood guilt incurred.  That is just one of perhaps several examples.

Understanding WHY one is allowable by God, and not the other ... is the KEY to understanding everything about the issue of blood guilt, or NO blood guilt, in every example that would come up in life.

It may remind you of a satanically inspired question where there is only a binary choice, like "Do you STILL beat your wife", but it is not.

My ex-mother-in-law may remind me of a Shrew, but she is not.

It is a question that when correctly answered, will give a complete understanding of our obligations toward God, what ever that might be, in a world where life and death is a daily concern.

There is a difference between KNOWING something ( which may be flat wrong) and UNDERSTANDING something, and it all depends on being able to correctly discern the actual, really true answer the question about any subject you could put forward, and that is ....

WHY?

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30 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

There is a difference between KNOWING something ( which may be flat wrong) and UNDERSTANDING something,

Well, it doesn’t entirely fit, but the speaker yesterday drew the following contrast between knowledge and understanding:

Knowledge: a tomato is a fruit

Understanding: Don’t put it in a fruit salad.

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Quote " Apparently you do NOT know the difference between homicide ... and murder .... and have ONLY your opinion to offer "
 
Apparently you do not know either. And you have only your opinion, oh yes, and your agenda. 
 
4 Classifications of Homicide
  • Capital Murder.
  • Manslaughter.
  • Criminally Negligent Homicide.
  • Murder.

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58 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Knowledge: a tomato is a fruit

Understanding: Don’t put it in a fruit salad.

 It seems how JW people don't using proper Understanding when false Knowledge is presented.  

Knowledge: End is near

Understanding: We must build new modern center for making digital spiritual food.

In this, both is questionable. The knowledge and the understanding. 

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48 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

 I wonder if we should look for a direct scripture that says "You must not transfuse blood from one human to another human". 

I do not wonder at all.

WE SHOULD !!!

( ... speaking as one who refused any blood or fractions during recent heart surgeries ...)

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2 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

carefully crafted question to isolate one specific principle, from

Carefully crafted question to get the answer you have already decided upon.

You remind me of the liberation fighters in Africa who wrote doctors theses on their right to "fight" with weapons (and other means) to liberate themselves from colonial oppression. They all got degrees in theology and used the bible to justify their stance.   This means that anyone can justify their stance if they twist the teachings of Jesus. 

I firmly believe that we will be tested on this stance in future. The fact that we refuse to kill our brothers in another country or any other human (whatever the provocation) will test if we really love our neighbour.  Most religions are prepared to kill others.  If you love your life you will lose it - this was a scripture quoted last week in study.

1 hour ago, 4Jah2me said:

wonder if we should look for a direct scripture that says "You must not transfuse blood from one human to another human

"Abstain"   from blood, fornication and what us strangled...... this means stay away.... do not touch - the same as you will not touch or bring another woman close to you   or  Acts 20:    "but to write them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from what is strangled, and from blood."

2 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

are cases when killing IS ACCEPTABLE, should you

In your mind yes.  Bring me a scripture in the new testament where jesus, Paul, John , Peter or James said anything to this effect...... I dare you to find a scripture which indicates we can use a weapon against another or defend ourselves by taking a life of another!  The new testament is clear that even abusive speech is NOT acceptable - in book of Judas. 

The heart is treacherous...... why?  We follow our own independent way away from obedience to God.      

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Did you mean to say "WHY .... doesn't Jehovah God NOT consider warfare .... murder?".

If so, I think it is more like ... Jehovah has placed the Nations in their relative positions, to execute judgement against wrongdoers , and protect us from Anarchy, which would be worse than even the Nazis (as the classic bad example) at their worst ... and allowed each political entity to run their affairs as they see fit ( temporarily), and it would be hypocritical to view their permitted activities, be it internal affairs, or how they treat their their external enemies, however perceived, and for whatever reason, as reprehensible to the extent of being classified as murder.

The people of the Nations are particularly nasty, and complex, and do not respond well as a general rule to reasonableness.

He has allowed it .... and specifically, so it may be as a protection for us .... AND THEM.

This is the essence, although somewhat simplistic.

I can not find any evidence that this reasonable approach is NOT Jehovah's God viewpoint.

..... AND MORE TO THE SPECIFIC POINT ...

I cannot find any evidence that Jehovah God considers warfare between secular nations ....  the same way that he considers murder.

None, whatsoever.

 

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1 hour ago, Arauna said:

 This means that anyone can justify their stance if they twist the teachings of Jesus. 

 

A friend of mine used to say that he would never trust a willing military participant in the new system, for “he has proven in this system that he will pick up a gun and blow off my head if some man tells him to.”

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37 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

A friend of mine used to say that he would never trust a willing military participant in the new system, for “he has proven in this system that he will pick up a gun and blow off my head if some man tells him to.”

If he makes it into the new system, that means your friend is resisting the direct will, and trust of Jehovah God, whose Son's decision it was for that person to be there.

Besides .... the conclusion reached is based on general cluelessness.

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47 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

If he makes it into the new system, that means your friend is resisting the direct will, and trust of Jehovah God, whose Son's decision it was for that person to be there.

Besides .... the conclusion reached is based on general cluelessness.

I really honestly truly have no idea what you are talking about, as explained by my previous comment & only amplified since.. My bad, if you want to make it that way, but I don’t follow this at all.

Are you upset that you didn’t fight in the big war—is that it?

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58 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

and you are so trigger-happy with the barbs, put-downs, and insults, not to mention the cartoons, that I hesitate to get close enough to find out.

I'm just glad I live in England. I hope this is far enough away from James and his house full of weapons. Hope he doesn't get his hands on missiles. 

But seriously though, a country that starts a war for greed and power and is willing to kill other people. If the idea is to take land, goods, riches, people, livestock et al. Then it is premeditated killing that should not be happening. I do not think God approves of any of that. I would think that God would class it as murder. Whether as a whole, or as each individual killing. And I would think the ones doing the attacking and killing would be judged differently to those doing the defending. 

I have mixed feelings about killing for defence. But if someone was attacking my wife then I would think natural defence mechanism would come into play. 

However, the time will come, as i think @Arauna mentioned, when true servants of God will be attacked and killed. I have my doubts that God is gong to defend everyone of His servants. So, will God's true servants just allow themselves to be killed ? Allowing the stealing of our possessions is easy enough, but allowing someone to kill you / me, i don't know............ 

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8 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Allowing the stealing of our possessions is easy enough, but allowing someone to kill you / me, i don't know............ 

In the Fifth Grade, I was 12 years old .... and Mrs. Thoms used to read stories to our class, which I remembered as "Arthur, the Vacillating Rat" (first he goes this way ... then he goes that .. poor Arthur could never make up his mind.")

The English are somewhat like that ... If the Nazis had marched in backwards to merry old England, they might have thought they were leaving.

If someone MERELY steals, or destroys your home and resources ... you may DIE of starvation, hardship, exposure and disease.

They are MERELY killing you more slowly.

 

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Yes James but I'm trying to think from a spiritual aspect. 

But I'm beginning to wonder James, are you one of Jehovah's Witnesses or not ?

And what do think the real 'time of the end' will be like ? 

Do you think all God's people will be sat in their homes drinking coffee whilst all the 'wicked' are being 'removed' outside ? 

I do remember the JW video of all the bros and sis hiding in the basement when the soldiers come looking for them. 

I'm hoping to be dead and buried before the Judgement Day arrives. 

 

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4J:

Although I try to live my life according to Bible Standards, I am a Barbarian at heart.

When I get a sheet of bubble wrap packed with something I ordered, I will pop the plastic bubbles one at a time, visualizing with a big grin Snowflakes, Progressives, and Liberals, and "spiritual" peoples' heads exploding, trying to understand the REAL world.

Entertainment is where you find it!

3pdp01.jpg

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Um, sick me thinks.

But everyone's 'real world' is different. Even the members of a family all living in one house. 

My 'real world' is very simple. because i make it that way.  Therefore my 'real world' is quite peaceful and relaxing.

No longer living by man made fake religious rules has made my 'real world' very different. Whilst I watch others still worrying and frightened of breaking those man made rules. 

But spiritual thinking is above the devil's real world. And why would i even want to be thinking about that world. All earthly governments / politicians / news media / protest groups et al, all belong to the devil's real world. The internet in bombarded with it all. It's almost unavoidable to see but no one needs to dwell on it. 

Just one point though : To quote you 

" Although I try to live my life according to Bible Standards, "

But whose version of Bible Standards do you try to live by ? 

Is it the GB's / JW Org version, or your own version ? 

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God adopted Israel as His people. (Ezek chapter 16)   He trained them, gave them commandments that were to be practiced among them. For any foreigner who joined them, He demanded that they be protected, even if His own people turned wicked.  (Deut 27:19; Ps 146:9)  As far back as Abel, were faithful ones whose hearts were inclined to listen to God.  Mankind in general lived debauched lives, murdering one another, were steeped in idolatry, even sacrificing their children to Baal.   God knows each heart’s intentions, and He knows those who desire to be loyal to Him. (1 Kings 8:39; 1 Sam 16:7; Prov 21:2; 2 Chron 16:9)    All mankind, since the beginning, have free will to choose our path in this physical life – one of life/light, or one of death/darkness. (Deut 30:19; 1 John 1:5; 2:8)  When God’s people fought against the nations, can we be assured that any whose hearts were disposed to know God, wouldn’t be protected from losing their life? (Deut 21:1-9)   And if an innocent one was killed during battle, wouldn’t they be remembered in the resurrection to eternal life?   Abraham was worried about those in Sodom and Gomorrah, unsure that the innocent, righteous ones would be saved; and he was assured that they would, yet only Lot and family were found worthy of being saved.   Gen 18:16-32

It seems to me that the circumstances of murder among God’s people was His priority, since He gave them guidelines that they regularly transgressed.    Once Jesus came, murder among his people was still the focus in the Bible.  Today, God’s “Israel” and those with them, are judged by Jesus' teachings.  For anyone on the earth who desires to serve God and Christ in righteousness, I personally feel comfort in leaving their judgment to the one who knows their heart’s intentions.  If the faithful innocent are murdered, the murderer will pay.  The innocent will receive eternal life. 

The act of shedding another’s blood, even among those nations who fought against Israel, was not taken lightly by God. To David, He said:

but the word of the Lord came to me, saying, ‘You have shed much blood and have made great wars; you shall not build a house for My name, because you have shed much blood on the earth in My sight.  1 Chron 22:8 (Num 35:33,34)

Among his people, Jesus said:

“Snakes! Brood of vipers! How can you escape being condemned to hell? (“Gehenna”)  34 This is why I am sending you prophets, sages, and scribes. Some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 So all the righteous blood shed on the earth will be charged to you, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all these things will come on this generation.”   Matt 23:33-36

The apostle John made it clear that hating one’s brother was compared to murder

“In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, 12 not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother’s righteous.  1 John 3:10-12

13 Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. 15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.”  1 John 3:13-15

The world John was speaking of was the world that he removed himself from – the Pharisaical system of belief.  They hated Christ and those who followed him.  They are, according to these scriptures, murderers. 

“If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.”  John 15:18-19 

It wasn’t the entire world of mankind that hated Jesus, it was the Jewish system of his day. 

Under today’s “Pharisaical” arrangement, who commits spiritual murder?  The GB and those who carry it out.  (John 16:2,3; Rev 13:15; 11:3,7) They are just as responsible for shedding “spiritual” blood through their act of disfellowshipping, as the Pharisees were for shedding physical blood of those who followed Christ.

Along with disfellowshipping/”killing” on the basis of “sins not leading to death”, it is downplayed among JWs, that the organization fully rejects those who reject their lies.  It is downplayed, that those who realize they need to obey Christ rather than men, are considered “wicked”.    (1 John 5:16,17) 

“But when they arrest you and deliver you up, do not worry beforehand, or premeditate what you will speak. But whatever is given you in that hour, speak that; for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit. 12 Now brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death13 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end shall be saved.”  Mark 13:11-13

Watchtower 1961 Jul 15 p.420

"Jesus encouraged his followers to love their enemies, but God's Word also says to "hate what is bad." When a person persists in a way of badness after knowing what is right, when the bad becomes so ingrained that it is an inseparable part of his make-up, then in order to hate what is bad a Christian must hate the person with whom the badness is inseparably linked." 

Wow.  They’ve gone beyond the words of Christ.  Jesus didn’t just “encourage” it, he commanded his followers to love their enemies.  Matt 5:43,44; Matt 7:26,27

    Hello guest!
,
    Hello guest!
 put it this way...
"But before all this, they will seize you and persecute you. They will hand you over to synagogues and put you in prison (
    Hello guest!
    Hello guest!
,
    Hello guest!
    Hello guest!
), and you will be brought before kings (
    Hello guest!
) and governors ("Governing Body" 
    Hello guest!
), and all on account of my name...Everyone will hate you because of me." (
    Hello guest!
    Hello guest!
) (
    Hello guest!
    Hello guest!
,
    Hello guest!
) (
    Hello guest!
)

I would be more concerned with the murderous intentions of the organization, that obviously “makes war” with God’s people who reject their “Jewish” system.  God does consider warfare, murder.   

“Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name. Rev 13:1  

“It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.”  Rev 13:7

“Keep on the Watch” p. 16,17  - “Does your worship truly unite you with fellow worshipers of all nations, all races, all languages? 

Rev 18:24 - And in her (Rev 13:11; 17:5) was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth.”

 

 

    Hello guest!

 

 

 

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20 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

So, will God's true servants just allow themselves to be killed ? Allowing the stealing of our possessions is easy enough, but allowing someone to kill you / me, i don't know............ 

I may mention that during or just before Armageddon there may be anarchy when people attack and do as they please. There may be no law and order.  Better to die innocent before jehovah than to have blood on your hands.    

Practically, you may be able to fight off one person..... what do you do if a group comes at you? ....Best to have been loyal to jehovah from the start because the odds are not high that you can fight to defend yourself...... rather trust in the one who can give you back your life.   Our trust in Jah may be tested this far..... like jesus in a life and death situation. Jesus chose to die faithful to Jehovah's principles and healed the soldier's ear and told Peter to put away his sword.

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14 minutes ago, Arauna said:

.Best to have been loyal to jehovah from the start because the odds are not high that you can fight to defend yourself..

What does the term "loyal to jehovah" entail?

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On 2/16/2020 at 2:59 AM, 4Jah2me said:

And you are still part of this world, just like Tom and Aurana. Still talking politics. 

It is not wrong to know what is going on in the world  but it is wrong to take sides in its issues and get involved in it..... 

I watch world events to see in which direction world events are heading....... just as Abraham asked jehovah about sodom and gomorrah and travelled around. 

I do not belong to any worldly organisations or even vote for a seemingly innocent thing. Neither do I fund any organization be it religious or political or any other issues. I do not go to parties, clubs, celebrate worldly festivals or follow a worldly career.  Twice I gave up a lucrative career that could have brought recognition and  money.... I do not watch modern movies or ...... agh........ I leave it there.  Jehovah will judge me...... thanks to Him, it will not be your job to judge me. 

My knowledge of the world and what is going on in it helps me in my preaching work........ which I enjoy tremendously.......I meet tourists every day here in Tbilisi and can immediately relate to them because of my knowledge of the political situation in their countries. My general knowledge helps as well.

For example just in the last few days I preached to an Irishman and could open a conversation about the kingdom by referring to sinn fein. ....which he immediately explained.....how they recently won the election. He left amicably with information about Jehovahs kingdom in contrast with the political turmoil in the world..... and where he can get more info.

I also spoke to a Chinese woman who wants to leave China due to the new level of surveillance.....she says they check telephones on return to China in random fashion. There is no freedom of speech. She was also kicked out of three hotels in Tbilisi because of discrimination regarding the Corona virus.  She gave me her email address.  I already sent her information to help her. We spoke at length about JWs and the kingdom as the only solution.

Today I met an Arab from Saudi Arabia on the metro train.  I gave him my number.

Tonight I had a long return visit with him over the phone and immediately understood his fears about talking to JWs (because I studied his religion and know the political situation in his country). He did not go into lengthy explanations because he saw that I knew what he was talking about.  I gave him good advice because he can be killed in his own country if they inspect his phone.  He expressed his thoughts that he thinks we are the true nation of God after I had explained the difference between our teachings regarding the future government of God and that of Islam..... 

I rest my case....... 

 

 

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This is funny coming from ex-witnesses. What does “loyal to God” mean? When their own actions here depict the worse kind of disloyalty by doing everything Jesus warned his disciples against. He warned about, how apostasy would gain ground in the last days. How much proof does one need to see it here every day.

Don’t use the name of God in vain. Learn! This goes for witnesses to.

Maybe that way, people here will learn the difference between “men of war” that had blood in their hands contrary to God’s command “thou shall not kill”. Murder is no different. Why did God allow killing. Did God Sanction the killing of Abel? No, Cain made a choice.

God does not sanction murder. Understand 1 Samuel 8:-6-8. We all have a choice, even men of war. However, what kind of blood-lust does a man of war have when blood is already on their hands?

Did God allow King David to build the Holy House of God? No!

Therefore, God does consider people killed in warfare murder. It is disingenuous to think of the men of war while leaving out “all” the innocent people caught in it through no fault of their own.

WARFARE IS MURDER!

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3 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Therefore, God does consider people killed in warfare murder. It is disingenuous to think of the men of war while leaving out “all” the innocent people caught in it through no fault of their own.

 

WARFARE IS MURDER!

I disagree with you CC , because if warfare is murder ... then Jehovah sanctioned murder in the wars the Jews fought, and at Armageddon will murder those executed, making Him a murderer.

You can't have it both ways.

Might you happen to have a clear and unambiguous Scripture that supports your cultural tradition based personal opinion?

I mean ... one that specifically states, one way or the other that Jehovah does ... or does not ... consider warfare to be the moral equivalent of murder?

HINT:

It's a YES, or NO answer ... followed by a SPECIFIC Scriptural reference, not a "Buzz Scripture", or a nebulous collection of "Buzz Scriptures".

 

BUZZ SCRIPTURES EVERYWHERE.jpg

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53 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I disagree with you CC , because if warfare is murder ... then Jehovah sanctioned murder in the wars the Jews fought, and at Armageddon will murder those executed, making Him a murderer.

You can't have it both ways.

I will have to disagree with your assessment JTR. For one, God has “never” murdered any of his creation. In the OT, God used those men of war with blood in their hands to combat and stop the needless murder of innocence. A part taken by angels that understood Gods justice.

Now on the NT, Christians are transformed to fight a spiritual battle with the full set of armor to our disposal. Therefore, Governments have taken the role of men with blood on their hands. 2 Corinthians 10:4

Will Christ Judge those men of war? Yes he will. Will god destroy those men of war? No! It will be left up to Jesus to deliver such justice just like he will deliver that justice to Satan.

Read James 4:1-2, Romans 13:1-5

This is in essence why the society makes it clear when people are deciding to join the armed forces and get disfellowshipped for what will become blood guilt. If men of war target only men of war, that is one thing, but they target anyone where the men of war reside.

Can you separate that blood guilt between the two? NO!

Therefore, it’s not a matter of having it both ways, it’s about understanding scripture.

It's always been about the shedding of innocent blood.

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CC:

HINT:

It's a YES, or NO answer ... followed by a SPECIFIC Scriptural reference, not a "Buzz Scripture", or a nebulous collection of "Buzz Scriptures", and somewhat related, but not to the point ideas.

Comment: I agree Jehovah never murdered anyone ... but He HAS PARTICIPATED IN WARFARE;

Either you get it ...or you don't.

Apparently .... you don't.

Test Score: ZERO

 

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JTR:

No hint needed.

It comes not of a nebulous collection of "buzz scripture" but "factual scripture" drawn from understanding Bible Principles.

That's why, I understand scripture better than you!

But since your testing, give yourself an F! lol!! 😂

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5 hours ago, César Chávez said:

That's why, I understand scripture better than you!

Apparently you do not understand Scripture enough to FIND ONE that states whether or not Jehovah specifically views warfare as murder, or not.

remember the original question I posed?

"WHY .... doesn't Jehovah God consider warfare ... murder?"

Try THIS principle on for size:

Jehovah engages in warfare.

If I am right, Jehovah is NOT a murderer.

If you are right, Jehovah IS a murderer.

 

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30 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Jehovah specifically views warfare as murder, or not.

As I said earlier - it does not matter if warfare is murder or not because BOTH warfare and murder or any killing is no longer allowed if you want to be a true Christian. 

Maybe for a false Christian.  You can join another Christian church if you feel killing or war is acceptable. They love to go and give their children in sacrifice to the God of war - and all in the name of nationalism. Their leaders drum the war Tom-toms and then they go fight their leader's wars. Iraq is a  good example: young men died to win territory which a new president gives away..... when things change.... they forget the precious blood that was given for their warmongering and mistakes.

Isaiah clearly states that in last days those serving jehovah "will learn war no more".   So your irrelevant, sneaky question is not applicable...... because NONE of it is allowed if you are a true Christian.  

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Arauna:

You misapply what I am saying in every way.

I am not saying that warfare is acceptable for Christians .... I am saying that to the best of my knowledge ... warfare is NOT considered by God to be murder.

That is my best guess looking at how Jehovah has acted, what He has done, and what He has said about BOTH types of homicide.

There are irrefutable facts, that can be directly observed.

What I am trying to codify, and correctly understand ...is NOT what ... that can be clearly seen ... what I want to know is ...

WHY?

I want to Grok.

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13 hours ago, César Chávez said:

For one, God has “never” murdered any of his creation.

Exodus 15

"The LORD is my strength and song, And He has become my salvation; This is my God, and I will praise Him; My father's God, and I will extol Him. 

    Hello guest!
 "The LORD is a warrior; The LORD is His name. 
    Hello guest!
 
"Pharaoh's chariots and his army He has cast into the sea; And the choicest of his officers are drowned in the Red Sea.

Psalm 24

Who is the King of glory? The LORD strong and mighty, The LORD mighty in battle.

Exodus 14

"The LORD will fight for you while you keep silent."

Psalm 45

Gird Your sword on Your thigh, O Mighty One, In Your splendor and Your majesty!

......... and so on :))

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6 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Exodus 15

"The LORD is my strength and song, And He has become my salvation; This is my God, and I will praise Him; My father's God, and I will extol Him. 

    Hello guest!
 "The LORD is a warrior; The LORD is His name. 
    Hello guest!
 
"Pharaoh's chariots and his army He has cast into the sea; And the choicest of his officers are drowned in the Red Sea.

You have the same obscured view JTR has. Once again, God has "never" murdered anyone. The example you gave is about God's angels working in saving innocence.

God did not sanction the killing of Abel. Human imperfection did that. Sinful people started killing each other before the flood, that God felt he needed to remove humans altogether from existence. The Flood became a judgement against humanity the angels and Christ accepted. Why? To preserve the "innocent".

Therefore, it is NOT something that God sanctioned back then nor does he accept it now. The preservation of innocence comes in high regard. Men of War do not care for that innocence. All they care is about winning. The disgusting thing is, they claim it in the name of God.

People kill people, in the OT, it was about innocence God tolerated those with blood in their hands to safeguard the innocent. That changed with the NT. Now the government that doesn't care for innocence became the men of war. Those governments will be judged by Christ in the end.

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CC:

EVERYTHING you said in the above post is true .... but is completely beside the point ... and completely misses the POINT of the discussion.

It is similar to me asking why automobiles are manufactured in the United States ... and you give a dissertation of the nitrogen cycles of various soil conditions, optimized for corn production... all interesting discussions, and somewhat related as to whether of not corn will grow well, but all the verbiage, charts and graphs, and stuff, related to corn. have NOTHING to do with the question of car manufacture !

NOTHING you have said above ... NOTHING WHATSOEVER, has anything at all to do with answering the ONLY question I brought up...

"WHY .... doesn't Jehovah God consider warfare ... murder?"

My best guesses looking at how Jehovah has acted, what He has done, and what He has said about BOTH types of homicide, show that he DOES NOT view them the same way

There are irrefutable facts, that can be directly observed, from the Biblical record.

What I am trying to codify, and correctly understand ...is NOT what ... that can be clearly seen ... what I want to know is ...

WHY?

I want to Grok.  THAT is my agenda.

Your agenda appears to be to defend something that was NOT disparaged, completely off topic.

 

 

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