1st Century Christians, Leaders, Apostle Paul Letters to the congregations.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

A topic, or more of a number of questions ? 

I've been pondering and trying to research a few things. But the problem I've found in trying to research is that people have their own agenda and will write according to it. They have their own predetermined answer and will therefore write accordingly. I am therefore not starting with a predetermined set of answers, but am asking questions, as many of you have great experience and knowledge.

I'm looking at the 1st Century Christian 'organisation', at the 12, at the Apostle Paul, and at the warning and destruction of Jerusalem which I think happened in 70 C. E.

One point I was looking to discover was, when did the 1st Century Christians leave Jerusalem, based on the warning from Jesus.

About thirty-seven years before the destruction, Jesus had foretold the terrible events that would follow his death. He warned his followers to immediately flee Jerusalem when the signs he predicted occurred. The Christian community carefully watched for the signs and followed the Savior’s warning.

 

Epiphanes also attested to the Christian escape, according to Bible scholar Adam Clarke. The latter wrote: “It is very remarkable that not a single Christian perished in the destruction of Jerusalem,......"

Vespasian was approaching with his army, all who believed in Christ left Jerusalem and fled to Pella, and other places beyond the river Jordan; and so they all marvellously escaped

Pella must not have been the only destination of fleeing Christians, but it was the most prominent at the time. The flight to Pella took place in A.D. 66 during the attack by Gallus.

So I'm now looking to find out where the 12 Apostles went and exactly when they left Jerusalem ?

AND, importantly, Did they stay together as a 'body' or did they go separate ways ?

As a side note here I find that the NWT has it that the book of Acts was written in 61, whereas others believe it to be written in 66. 

The Governing Body of CCJW give the impression that they are following on from the 1st Century Apostles and Older Men. 

However, here we must look at a few points. 

The Apostle Paul, who was NOT one of the 12, was the one chosen, it seems, to write Letters to the congregations.

If the 12 Apostles (11 original + 1 chosen by men) were the original 'governing body', then why are the Letters to the Congregations NOT written by the 12 ?  Why was Paul chosen to write those letters ?

Or, just as important, Why are there no letters to the Congregations written by a 'body of Apostles / Older Men' recorded in the Bible ? 

Paul was basically an outsider. Why are his writings more prominent in the Greek Scriptures ?

One other thing I noticed was that all of Paul's letters are pre 70 C. E. which is before the destruction of Jerusalem. 

It seems, (although research seems to differ) that Paul was murdered by the Romans / Nero, in 68 C. E.

The only Bible writings after 70 C. E. were written by the Apostle John. Revelation in 96 and John's other writings in 98. 

Was he the only one of the original 12 alive after 70 C. E. ?

So what proof do we have of a 'governing body' 'group of Apostles /Older men' from the time that the 12 left Jerusalem in around 66 C. E. ? 

And why were they not used to write letters to the Congregations ?  Did they stay together as a 'body' or did they separate ?

@JW Insider @TrueTomHarley @Arauna @Anna As JWs that think your Org has truth, maybe you can answer my questions.

[JW Insider]

4 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

But the problem I've found in trying to research is that people have their own agenda and will write according to it.

Unfortunately, this has been going on even from the time that the scriptures were written, or at least from very shortly after the NT was completed. This means that even the very idea that there had been an escape to Pella might just be from persons with their own agenda.

The best evidence that comes down to us is from Eusebius of Caesarea and Epiphanius of Salamis. Eusebius wrote his "Ecclesiastical History" (Church History) between about 300 and 325. Epiphanius would have written "Panarion" around 375. We don't know what, if anything, was written on this topic between 70 CE and 300 CE.

So this might be a little like someone just now trying to make a story about what direction we believe small bands of native Americans (Indians) ran to in 1775 in upstate NY when Ethan Allen and Benedict Arnold were capturing the guns at the British Fort Ticonderoga (which would just precede a siege of Boston and the building of a fortification of stakes around parts of that city).

The "American Indians" were not a big part of that story, so there is very little written down about what they did. If someone came up with a new story about it 200 to 250 years later, we might not put much trust in it. But, then again, we might assume that there were some verbal or even written records that could be gathered up from various families in the area, and that there was some truth to such a story.

We have some evidence that the apostles generally stayed in Jerusalem, per Jesus' instructions just after he was resurrected. In Galatians (and corroborated in Corinthians) Paul mentions a period of 14 years after his conversion when he finally goes to Jerusalem to meet with the apostles. If Paul converted before 36, then this refers to a time prior to 50 CE., when at least some apostles were still there. Peter and John are mentioned specifically, and James who was also mentioned had not been considered an apostle. Acts also does not mention any additional apostles (except Peter and James) still alive or around at this time. If there had been an instruction to all the apostles to stay in Jerusalem, for the purpose of forming an apostolic group to study the scriptures and devote themselves to prayer, then it may have already accomplished its purpose and broken up before 50 CE.

We hear of the "The Twelve" in Acts 6, still in Jerusalem, when they send out Stephen and Philip, for example. (Still prior to Paul's conversion.) By chapter 8 of Acts we hear about the group of "apostles in Jerusalem," and how both Peter and John had been sent to Samaria (and we know from Galatians that Peter had gone as far as Antioch). But by chapter 11 of Acts we only hear of some older men in Jerusalem and only one apostle there, Peter. By the time we reach 11:29 we only hear about the effect of the famine on "the brothers living in Judea." This matches about the same timing as Paul spoke of in Galatians and elsewhere when Paul brought collections back to the brothers in Jerusalem "keeping the poor in mind." Then in the next verses of Acts (Acts 12:1-3) we see that Herod has just put the Apostle James (brother of John) to death (not the same James of "James, Peter, and John" in Galatians) and goes after Peter.

After the destruction, we see John the apostle up around the isle of Patmos, but this could have been an exile from anywhere, not necessarily Jerusalem.

So, we really don't know how long the apostles stayed together in Jerusalem, or whether Herod broke that up even prior to the work of Paul and Barnabas, that brought them to Jerusalem (Acts 15). No Bible writer mentions Pella. I don't think there is anyone we know about who mentioned anything about a flight to Pella until 200 years later. There are plenty of letters and stories and other Christian writings between 70 and 300, but no evidence about Pella.

Still, we have the history (through Josephus) of the attack on Jerusalem, and the fact that the Romans started to attack in 66 and then decided to withdraw and not come back until they were ready to wage the war from start to finish in 70. Perhaps no Christians left in 66, although this seems like the time that would fit best. It's possible that most Christians had already left during Herod's persecution. It's possible that most Christians left just as the final approach was being made in 70 around the time of the Passover.

The most "ideal" story says that Christians recognized Jesus warning when Jerusalem was approached in 66, and that they then left and stayed away for about a 3-and-a-half year period until Jerusalem was destroyed with its Temple in 70. But we have no evidence from Josephus or anyone else about that.

It might also be wishful thinking to believe that no Christians were killed during the destruction of Jerusalem, as Epiphanius claimed 300 years later.

As to the idea that John was the only apostle alive after 70, there is an interesting passage in John that seems to refer to his age and the timing of the parousia.

(John 21:20-24) . . .Peter turned around and saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following, . . . 21 So when he caught sight of him, Peter said to Jesus: “Lord, what about this man?” 22 Jesus said to him: “If it is my will for him to remain until I come, of what concern is that to you? You continue following me.” 23 So the saying went out among the brothers that this disciple would not die. However, Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but he said: “If it is my will for him to remain until I come, of what concern is that to you?” 24 This is the disciple who gives this witness about these things and who wrote these things, and we know that his witness is true.

I like your questions and there is much more to say about them, but I'll stop for now.

[JW Insider]

Using the quotes extracted from Eusebius and Epaphanius in a Wiki article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_to_Pella

It might be interesting to note that the impetus to leave Jerusalem and go to Pella was not specifically credited to Jesus' prophecy in Matthew/Mark/Luke, but to an angel, or a specific oracle/revelation/prophecy given just before the war. This would put it on par with the prophecy of Agabus (Acts 11:27, 28) . . .In those days prophets came down from Jerusalem to Antioch. 28 One of them named Agʹa·bus stood up and foretold through the spirit that a great famine was about to come on the entire inhabited earth, which, in fact, did take place in the time of Claudius.

This is a curious report then by Eusebius, that he doesn't tie it to Matthew 24, or Luke 21, for example. (Epiphanius may have "corrected" this nearly 100 years after Eusebius, when he credited the flight to Jesus warning about the city being surrounded.)

The people of the Church in Jerusalem were commanded by an oracle given by revelation before the war to those in the city who were worthy of it to depart and dwell in one of the cities of Perea which they called Pella. To it those who believed on Christ traveled from Jerusalem, so that when holy men had altogether deserted the royal capital of the Jews and the whole land of Judaea…"

— Eusebius, Church History 3, 5, 3

The idea that the command only went to those in the city who were worthy, might also imply that there were reports that some [less worthy] Christians had died in Jerusalem's destruction.

 

Epaphanius had referenced Jesus' prophecy in his book Panarion, but in "Weights and Measures" he pretty much agreed with Eusebius:

So Aquila, while he was in Jerusalem, also saw the disciples of the disciples of the apostles flourishing in the faith and working great signs, healings, and other miracles. For they were such as had come back from the city of Pella to Jerusalem and were living there and teaching. For when the city was about to be taken and destroyed by the Romans, it was revealed in advance to all the disciples by an angel of God that they should remove from the city, as it was going to be completely destroyed. They sojourned as emigrants in Pella, the city above mentioned in Transjordania. And this city is said to be of the Decapolis."

— Epiphanius, On Weights and Measures 15

 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

38 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

The idea that the command only went to those in the city who were worthy, might also imply that there were reports that some [less worthy] Christians had died in Jerusalem's destruction.

Quite often those "worthies" that escape destruction, are the ones who have getaway money, and can afford to do so.

As many in the Peoples' Republic of Kalifornia, Taxachusettes, and New York are discovering ... there is nothing more PORTABLE, than people with money.

[JW Insider]

On 2/23/2020 at 11:39 AM, 4Jah2me said:

He warned his followers to immediately flee Jerusalem when the signs he predicted occurred.

(Matthew 24:15, 16) 15 “Therefore, when you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken about by Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place (let the reader use discernment), 16 then let those in Ju·deʹa begin fleeing to the mountains.

(Mark 13:14) 14 “However, when you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation standing where it should not be (let the reader use discernment), then let those in Ju·deʹa begin fleeing to the mountains.

(Luke 21:20-28) 20 “However, when you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near. 21 Then let those in Ju·deʹa begin fleeing to the mountains, let those in the midst of her leave, and let those in the countryside not enter into her, 22 because these are days for meting out justice in order that all the things written may be fulfilled. 23 Woe to the pregnant women and those nursing a baby in those days! For there will be great distress on the land and wrath against this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled. 25 “Also, there will be signs in the sun and moon and stars, and on the earth anguish of nations not knowing the way out because of the roaring of the sea and its agitation. 26 People will become faint out of fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 And then they will see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 But as these things start to occur, stand up straight and lift up your heads, because your deliverance is getting near.”

The words of Mark and Matthew implied that the Romans would have come right up to the Temple to defile it, and that this was the time to leave as quickly as possible. We know from Josephus that Jews read Daniel's "abomination of desolation" to be based on Antiochus IV, who: according to common knowledge had done as follows, 200 years earlier:

In 168 BC, the Greek king Antiochus IV Epiphanes invaded Jerusalem and captured the city. He marched into the Jewish temple, erected a statue of the Greek god Zeus, and sacrificed a pig on the altar of incense. This provoked a revolt in Judea as the Jews fought to remove Antiochus’ sacrilege from the temple. https://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/abomination-temple/

But Titus did not do anything akin to this in 66. Although in 70, he did. You can see almost direct evidence of this today by looking at the Arch of Titus.

In that year, the Roman general Titus invaded Jerusalem to crush a Jewish revolt, entered the temple, had the building destroyed, and carried off the lampstand and other temple artifacts to Rome.

So, it seems likely that it was not specifically anything in 66 (in Jesus' prophecy) that would have triggered a fleeing to Pella, nor does anyone who believed in a Pella flight actually time it to 66. Cestius Gallus did plunder the Temple [funds] and it resulted in a counter-attack by the Jews that was mostly successful. So this was an excellent time to leave, and both Jews and Romans got out of the city at that time. Wikipedia says:

The Roman governor, Gessius Florus, responded by plundering the Second Temple, claiming the money was for the Emperor, and the next day launching a raid on the city, arresting numerous senior Jewish figures. This prompted a wider, large-scale rebellion and the Roman military garrison of Judaea was quickly overrun by the rebels, while the pro-Roman king Herod Agrippa II, together with Roman officials, fled Jerusalem. As it became clear the rebellion was getting out of control, Cestius Gallus, the legate of Syria, brought in the Syrian army, based on Legion XII Fulminata and reinforced by auxiliary troops, to restore order and quell the revolt. Despite initial advances and the conquest of Jaffa, the Syrian Legion was ambushed and defeated by Jewish rebels at the Battle of Beth Horon with 6,000 Romans massacred and the Legion's aquila lost.

But at that point, Christians would have many months of opportunities to leave the city between 66 and the actual surrounding of Jerusalem in 70. 66 fits some of what Jesus said, but it was not a case so desperate that one would be unable to even grab a coat from inside your house. That was more like the situation just before Passover in 70. This is probably why Eusebius, who had read both Josephus and knew the Bible very well, believed the fleeing to Pella to be based on an angelic revelation.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

@JW Insider  Thank you for so much information. I will have to re -read it at least twice more to be able to digest / understand and try to remember it. Even better I will copy and paste sections of it as a draft email to myself. 

Quote "There are plenty of letters and stories and other Christian writings between 70 and 300, but no evidence about Pella."

Can you point me in the right direction to above statement please.

I'm still not sure if you've answered my questions written in blue.  Please bear with me as at 70 years old i find it difficult to hold information in my mind and to process it well.  As Arni said ' I'll be back'

 

 

 

 

[JW Insider]

3 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Can you point me in the right direction to above statement please.

Naturally, if it's something that might be historical but isn't found in the Bible itself, the first place you'd look is in the writings of contemporaries of first century Christians like

• Josephus,
• Pliny the Elder,
• Pliny the Younger

You might also try persons who referenced famous persons from the first century in works that referenced say Philo or Gamaliel, etc., even though they died before the Temple was destroyed. The same would go for biographies of the Romans or their military exploits that might reference:

• Herod Agrippa
• Cestius Gallus
• Gessius Florus
• Nero, Galba, Otho, Vitellius, and Vespasian. (the 5 Roman Emperors between 66 and 70)

Then you might try to find references in or about the writings of any of the following historians who might have mentioned something by chance up to within a 100 years of the Jerusalem event:

• Marcus Cluvius Rufus, (fl. 41–69), Roman history
• Quintus Curtius Rufus (c. 60–70), Greek history
• Flavius Josephus (37–100), Jewish history
• Dio Chrysostom (c. 40 – c. 115 AD), history of the Getae
• Thallus (early 2nd century AD), Roman history
• Gaius Cornelius Tacitus (c. 56–120), early Roman Empire
• Plutarch (c. 46–120), Parallel Lives of important Greeks and Romans
• Criton of Heraclea (fl. 100), history of the Getae and the Dacian Wars
• Suetonius (c. 69 – after 122), Roman emperors up to the Flavian dynasty
• Appian (c. 95 – c. 165), Roman history
• Arrian (c. 92–175), Greek history
• Granius Licinianus (2nd century), Roman history
• Criton of Pieria (2nd century), Greek history
• Lucius Ampelius (c. 2nd century AD), Roman history
• Dio Cassius (c. 160 – after 229), Roman history
• Marius Maximus (c. 160 – c. 230), biographer of Roman emperors
• Diogenes Laërtius (fl. c. 230), history of Greek philosophers
• Sextus Julius Africanus (c. 160 – c. 240), early Christian

The many Jewish and Jewish Christian writings to check during this period could include those with dates on them that fit the period, as seen on earlyjewishwritings.com and earlychristianwritings.com. Note that the dates are usually considered to be "scholarly" dates, not the dates that Christians assign to them when it comes to the actual NT writings. That requires a whole new discussion, but for now, those writings to check would include the following:

(Excuse the formatting issues below. I just copied them from a portion of the list at earlychristianwritings.com. It's a couple years worth of reading. I haven't completed more than a few of them, but have found nothing yet about the flight to Pella/Perea/Decapolis in any of them. The list of writings becomes much longer if you include Christian-related writings all the way up through the 300's when Eusebius and Epiphanius wrote.)

50-95	Signs Gospel
50-95	Book of Hebrews
50-120	Didache
50-140	Gospel of Thomas
50-140	Oxyrhynchus 1224 Gospel
50-150	Apocalypse of Adam
50-150	Eugnostos the Blessed
50-200	Sophia of Jesus Christ
65-80	Gospel of Mark
70-100	Epistle of James
70-120	Egerton Gospel
70-160	Gospel of Peter
70-160	Secret Mark
70-200	Fayyum Fragment
70-200	Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs
73-200	Mara Bar Serapion
80-100	2 Thessalonians
80-100	Ephesians
80-100	Gospel of Matthew
80-110	1 Peter
80-120	Epistle of Barnabas
80-130	Gospel of Luke
80-130	Acts of the Apostles
80-140	1 Clement
80-150	Gospel of the Egyptians
80-150	Gospel of the Hebrews
80-250	Christian Sibyllines
90-95	Revelation
90-120	Gospel of John
90-120	1 John
90-120	2 John
90-120	3 John
90-120	Epistle of Jude
93	Flavius Josephus
100-150	1 Timothy
100-150	2 Timothy
100-150	Titus
100-150	Apocalypse of Peter
100-150	Secret Book of James
100-150	Preaching of Peter
100-160	Gospel of the Ebionites
100-160	Gospel of the Nazoreans
100-160	Shepherd of Hermas
100-160	2 Peter
100-200	Odes of Solomon
100-200	Gospel of Eve
100-230	Thunder, Perfect Mind
101-220	Book of Elchasai
105-115	Ignatius of Antioch
110-140	Polycarp to the Philippians
110-140	Papias
110-160	Oxyrhynchus 840 Gospel
110-160	Traditions of Matthias
111-112	Pliny the Younger
115	Suetonius
115	Tacitus
120-130	Quadratus of Athens
120-130	Apology of Aristides
120-140	Basilides
120-140	Naassene Fragment
120-160	Valentinus
120-180	Apocryphon of John
120-180	Gospel of Mary
120-180	Dialogue of the Savior
120-180	Gospel of the Savior
120-180	2nd Apocalypse of James
120-180	Trimorphic Protennoia
120-180	Gospel of Perfection
120-200	Genna Marias
130-140	Marcion
130-150	Aristo of Pella
130-160	Epiphanes On Righteousness
130-160	Ophite Diagrams
130-160	2 Clement
130-170	Gospel of Judas
130-200	Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus
140-150	Epistula Apostolorum
140-160	Ptolemy
140-160	Isidore
140-170	Fronto
140-170	Infancy Gospel of James
140-170	Infancy Gospel of Thomas
140-180	Gospel of Truth
150-160	Martyrdom of Polycarp
150-160	Justin Martyr
150-180	Excerpts of Theodotus
150-180	Heracleon
150-200	Ascension of Isaiah
150-200	Interpretation of Knowledge
150-200	Testimony of Truth
150-200	Acts of Peter
150-200	Acts of John
150-200	Acts of Paul
150-200	Acts of Andrew
150-225	Acts of Peter and the Twelve
150-225	Book of Thomas the Contender
150-250	Paraphrase of Shem
150-250	Fifth and Sixth Books of Esra
150-300	Authoritative Teaching
150-300	Coptic Apocalypse of Paul
150-300	Prayer of the Apostle Paul
150-300	Discourse on the Eighth and Ninth
150-300	Melchizedek
150-350	Preaching of Paul
150-350	Epistle to the Laodiceans
150-350	Questions of Mary
150-350	Allogenes, the Stranger
150-350	Hypsiphrone
150-350	Valentinian Exposition
150-350	Act of Peter
150-360	Concept of Our Great Power
150-400	Acts of Pilate
150-400	Anti-Marcionite Prologues
150-400	Dialogue Between John and Jesus
160-170	Tatian's Address to the Greeks
160-180	Claudius Apollinaris
160-180	Apelles
160-180	Julius Cassianus
160-250	Octavius of Minucius Felix
161-180	Acts of Carpus
165-175	Melito of Sardis
165-175	Hegesippus
165-175	Dionysius of Corinth
165-175	Lucian of Samosata
167	Marcus Aurelius
170-175	Diatessaron
170-200	Dura-Europos Gospel Harmony
170-200	Muratorian Canon
170-200	Treatise on the Resurrection
170-220	Letter of Peter to Philip
170-230	Thought of Norea
175-180	Athenagoras of Athens
175-185	Irenaeus of Lyons
175-185	Rhodon
175-185	Theophilus of Caesarea
175-190	Galen
178	Celsus
178	Letter from Vienna and Lyons
180	Passion of the Scillitan Martyrs
180-185	Theophilus of Antioch
180-185	Acts of Apollonius

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

@JW Insider   Um yes, well i suppose I asked for that didn't I.

And top of your list is the only one that i have in hard copy.

I have a soft cover Enlarged type - Illustrated, Complete Works of Josephus. Of which i have only 'dabbled' in the Antiquities Of The Jews and noted in chapter nine the  mention of the stoning of James, brother of Jesus.

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Did you once say of me, that I trusted no one ? (Sorry if I'm mis-quoting you)

However, the first item I looked at, http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/1timothy.html

Quote :-

1 Timothy is one of the three epistles known collectively as the pastorals (1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, and Titus)

Norman Perrin summarises four reasons that have lead critical scholarship to regard the pastorals as inauthentic (The New Testament: An Introduction, pp. 264-5):

The letters as reflecting the characteristics of emergent Catholocism. The arguments presented above are forceful, but a last consideration is overwhelming, namely that, together with 2 Peter, the Pastorals are of all the texts in the New Testament the most distinctive representatives of the emphases of emergent Catholocism. The apostle Paul could no more have written the Pastorals than the apostle Peter could have written 2 Peter.

I hope you see my point about not trusting anyone. I think one needs the guidance of the Holy Spirit to know truth from lies.

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Backtracking if you please. What I'm looking to find out is, is there any proof of a  'governing body' 'group of Apostles / Older men' after 70 C. E. ?

I will have to re-read 1,2, 3, of John as they were the last writings included in the Holy Scriptures. 

But, another question. From 70 C. E. did the congregations that were already formed, act independently of one another ? 

Is a list of congregations that had been formed available, apart from those mentioned in God's Word ?

The GB & Writing Dept of Watchtower / CCJW  is central control. All congregations now follow the 'rules' from central control.  But was there such a central control of the 1st Century congregations ?  

And I'm still puzzled as to why the Apostle Paul was chosen to be the one to write to the congregations. 

Also as Paul was put to death in 68, I would have thought there would have been other writings to the congregations to encourage them at that time. 

Which brings me to the point (and I admit to not knowing ) Who chose the writings to be included in the 'Holy Scriptures' ? But i will do so research on that. 

If the GB are a representation of the 12 Apostles / Older men in Jerusalem, then who is the representation of the Apostle Paul ?  Because it would seem that Paul was independent of those in Jerusalem. 

It's just a thought. 

 

[JW Insider]

4 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

I'm still not sure if you've answered my questions written in blue.  Please bear with me as at 70 years old i find it difficult to hold information in my mind and to process it well.

The questions in blue were as follows:

On 2/23/2020 at 11:39 AM, 4Jah2me said:

So what proof do we have of a 'governing body' 'group of Apostles /Older men' from the time that the 12 left Jerusalem in around 66 C. E. ?

 

On 2/23/2020 at 11:39 AM, 4Jah2me said:

And why were they not used to write letters to the Congregations ?  Did they stay together as a 'body' or did they separate ?

There is no proof or reason to believe that the apostles themselves survived as a group until 66. The book of Acts discontinues the use of the phrase "The Twelve" very early in the narrative, and it's probably no coincidence that Acts stops referring to the apostles in Jerusalem at about the time it brings up that Herod killed one of them, James, and then immediately went after Peter. After the apostle James is killed (the brother of John) we never hear about any of the original "Twelve" again except for Peter and John. Tradition has Peter and Paul killed in the 60's, and only John surviving past the 70's. Early Christian writers like Clement, Ignatius, Polycarp and Papias, all give credence to the idea that John survived until about 96 to 100 CE. None of them mention any others as apostles except Paul and Peter who are considered to have died decades earlier.

You mentioned James, Jesus' brother, who is mentioned by Josephus, providing a context that would put his death about 62, although Epiphanius apparently thought he died at age 96, and Hegesippus is used to point to a date around 69 CE.

Jesus had only asked the apostles to stay in Jerusalem until the outpouring of the holy spirit, which would have been Pentecost, just a couple months after Jesus died. Acts speaks of them staying on a bit longer to take care of some problems of prejudice by Jews against non-Jewish Christians, and therefore making some assignments to make sure the non-Jewish Christians were treated fairly. But after mentioning the assignment of Stephen and the missionary work of Philip and his daughters, there is no more mention of the apostles. But the Jerusalem congregation was still considered to be led by "pillars" who had a lot of respect, just as Paul mentions in Galatians. Paul does not consider them to be a "governing body" however. But he did respect their decisions, even if he considered some of them as wrong. Paul directly contradicts their decision about eating meats that had been sacrificed to idols, which might even throw some question about Paul's stance on eating meats that had not been bled correctly. But Paul definitely supports the stance of the elders in Jerusalem on fornication and idolatry, of course.

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, 4Jah2me said:

Did you once say of me, that I trusted no one ? (Sorry if I'm mis-quoting you)

I was only quoting you. It's something that J.B. had said about three times, and I wasn't surprised when 4J said the same thing.

1 hour ago, 4Jah2me said:

The apostle Paul could no more have written the Pastorals than the apostle Peter could have written 2 Peter.

Yes, you have to be very careful whom you trust on such matters. Some of these ideas are based on a belief that Paul would not have changed his instructions as the congregations matured. Paul's stance against legalism for example doesn't seem to fit his "rules" about how to identify a deserving widow. Or specific sets of rules about who can be an elder or a ministerial servant. This does not mean that the letters were not "Pauline" however, but it does mean that we should look carefully at why certain statements appear to contradict earlier letters.

The case of 2 Peter is a little more serious. It could have been taken from Peter's own writings and turned into a useful letter for the congregations based on earlier letters, but this particular letter was not accepted as Peter's own writings by several early Christian writers. Even Eusebius (300) didn't think it belonged in the canon, although it was always generally admitted that its doctrinal content was exactly what Peter would have written. There is even a good chance that it was Peter's own content, but that many Christians of the time didn't believe it because they didn't like the idea that it implied that it might be another thousand years or so from then when the parousia would actually arrive. At any rate, there is nothing significant in 2 Peter that cannot be found in other Bible books, and the part about the parousia being delayed by another thousand years has been proved true.

This is not the topic with which to discuss the canon, or authenticity, but you will see a lot of this when looking to match historical information with early Christian writings, so it can't be totally avoided.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

Quote @JW Insider  " This is not the topic with which to discuss the canon, or authenticity, .. "

Are you suggesting another topic to discuss such or are you saying we should not discuss such ?

I'm becoming of the opinion that there was NO 'Governing Body' of the 1st Century Christians. And that with the deaths of the Apostles and with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 C. E. there was NO central form of 'rulership' over the Congregations of Christians of that time. 

Galatians 1, v 15 through 20

But when God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me through his undeserved kindness, thought good ¹⁶  to reveal his Son through me so that I might declare the good news about him to the nations,m I did not immediately consult with any human;* ¹⁷  nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before I was, but I went to Arabia, and then I returned to Damascus.n¹⁸  Then three years later I went up to Jerusalem to visit Ceʹphas, and I stayed with him for 15 days. ¹⁹  But I did not see any of the other apostles, only James the brother of the Lord. ²⁰  Now regarding the things I am writing you, I assure you before God that I am not lying.

I also read this account by Fred Franz 

https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/239363/there-first-century-governing-body-fred-franzs-view

Which seems to make it clear that Jesus was not working through a central 'rulership' or GB at the time of Paul's missionary work.

""And they [members of the Antioch congregation] laid their hands upon Paul or Saul and Barnabas and sent them forth, as a number of translations read, sent 'em forth! And then they went forth by the Holy Spirit operating through the Antioch congregation and they went out on their first missionary assignment. So you see, the Lord Jesus Christ was acting as the head of the congregation and taking action directly, without consulting any body here on earth what he could do or what he could not do! And he acted in that way with regard to Saul and Barnabas, an they were both apostles of the Antioch congregation, and so they went out to the work and had great success..."

No matter what personal opinions people have of Fred Franz, his words above (if the quote is correct) seem to make good sense. 

The fact that there is a Governing Body of the Watchtower and CCJW is just a fact. But to try to say that they are based on a first century 'Governing Body' seems to be lies. There is no proof of any 1st Century Governing Body at all. 

So, the question remains, Did each congregation rule itself ?  This quote from FF above concerning Antioch seems to say that Antioch made it's own decisions whilst being guided by Holy Spirit. 

I can see that i need to do much more research. 

 

[JW Insider]

4 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

So, the question remains, Did each congregation rule itself ?  This quote from FF above concerning Antioch seems to say that Antioch made it's own decisions whilst being guided by Holy Spirit. 

It would seem that the personal goal of persons like Paul, Peter, and John was to get congregations to a point where they would reach that level of maturity. But we see Paul continuing to "shepherd" the congregation, as a kind of "long distance" elder. He is to those congregations what the "governing body" seems to be to current Witness congregations.

John, in Revelation, writes to congregations with an idea that Jesus handles each congregation directly, and that they have been "on their own" under the direction of Jesus. They have a need to recognize this direct authority of Jesus, as they make decisions locally about who/what to listen to, and who/what to avoid. (Revelation 2&3).

It seems as though the apostles and older men of the first century did indeed act like a kind of governing body (not just in Jerusalem, but in Antioch, and anywhere that Paul, Titus, Timothy, etc. might have served from). But by the time John wrote, it was important to have more reliance on the holy spirit, and the FOUNDATION of the apostles and prophets, who had already been inspired to write the Biblical guidance which came to be seen as the primary content of the scriptural canon. So you can't really get mad at people who wish to imitate these shepherds from the first century to shepherd the congregations today. But you can also see a need for a balanced view since the goal should also continue to be guiding all to rely directly on the words of the Bible already written. Teaching the congregations to be guided by the holy spirit is a more difficult concept because, to most of us, it just means following the Bible, which is our only sure and consistent source of guidance by holy spirit.