What should we believe, what should we question, Bible Canon

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Would you please give me a link of the topic

1st Century Christians, Leaders, Apostle Paul Letters to the congregations.

 

[JW Insider]

@Srecko Sostar: The post with a bunch of links in it is that @4Jah2me mentioned is here:

 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

Quote @JW Insider 

" So the primary purpose of God sending the spirit into the hearts of Christians, a kind of anointing by holy spirit, is so that we will produce the fruitage that grows from that spirit: ...."

No, I don't like this, it looks sly. You are suggesting here that ALL Christians are receiving an Anointing by Holy Spirit.  This seems to follow on from @Witness idea of all elders being part of the 144,000. 

I reject your idea here. 

Quote " But questioning everything would require every one of us to become scholars "

This is one of my points. What does God and Christ expect of us ? 

Quote " A major concern of yours has been that only a modern-day anointing by holy spirit will explain everything to us, and you always tend to push this off into the future, although you recognize that it is needed now. " 

I do not push it off into the distant future. The True Anointed may already exist, but maybe the time is not right for them to be used by God or Christ. If God/Christ intend to use the CCJW then that org needs to be cleaned out first. But the true Anointed could be within that org. It's not the anointing that would be new, its the use of those ones that would be new.. A bit like sleepers, spies in a foreign land, there in place just waiting for the signal. 

Quote ".. and that even those of us who do not consider ourselves "anointed" must strive for the same measure of this holy spirit as those who consider themselves "anointed."

I do not agree with this comment.  I think you are working with the new ideas of the GB it would seem. 

You will have everyone saying that they are the Body of Christ soon. 

(Galatians 3:29-5:26) . . .Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham’s [seed] offspring, heirs with reference to a promise. .. . . 3 Likewise, we too, when we were children, were enslaved by the elementary things of the world. 4 But when the full limit of the time arrived, God sent his Son, who was born of a woman and who was under law, 5 that he might release by purchase those under law, so that we might receive the adoption as sons. 6 Now because you are sons, God has sent the spirit of his Son into our hearts, . 

This is purely for the Anointed. 

Enough for one comment. 

[JW Insider]

4 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

" So the primary purpose of God sending the spirit into the hearts of Christians, a kind of anointing by holy spirit, is so that we will produce the fruitage that grows from that spirit: ...."

I thought I was pointing out something that was obvious. The spirit may very well reveal a specific assignment in heaven or on earth. But it's the same spirit. Regarding Galatians 5:22, have you ever heard anyone say that the fruitage of the spirit (love, joy, peace . . . kindness, goodness, faith, etc.) is only for those who are anointed? No one ever says that. Except that the entire book of Galatians was sent to those addressed like this:

(Galatians 4:6, 7) . . .Now because you are sons, God has sent the spirit of his Son into our hearts, and it cries out: “Abba, Father!” 7 So you are no longer a slave but a son; and if a son, then you are also an heir through God.

To the Romans, Paul said the same things he says in Galatians 4&5:

(Romans 8:14-17) 14 For all who are led by God’s spirit are indeed God’s sons. 15 For you did not receive a spirit of slavery causing fear again, but you received a spirit of adoption as sons, by which spirit we cry out: “Abba, Father!” 16 The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 If, then, we are children, we are also heirs—heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ—provided we suffer together so that we may also be glorified together.

The statements are about how there are only two choices, the spirit or the flesh. So I'm not saying anything about the specific anointing for the heavenly hope. That's a separate issue. Whether we believe we are appointed to a heavenly hope or appointed to an earthly hope, it's still the same "one hope, one faith, one baptism" for the creation which is currently sighing and groaning to eagerly await the revealing of the sons of God. If Adam was a son of God, although appointed to an earthly hope, then surely there will come a time when those who pass through the millennium, at least, although of the earthly hope, will also be considered "sons of God." I also believe that this same spirit will reveal a desire for a heavenly hope for some, although I don't really believe that we humans are really capable of knowing exactly where Jehovah may wish to assign our part in the new system.

(1 Corinthians 12:22-26) . . .On the contrary, the members of the body that seem to be weaker are necessary, 23 and the parts of the body that we think to be less honorable we surround with greater honor, so our unseemly parts are treated with greater modesty, 24 whereas our attractive parts do not need anything. Nevertheless, God has so composed the body, giving greater honor to the part that had a lack, 25 so that there should be no division in the body, but its members should have mutual concern for one another. 26 If one member suffers, all the other members suffer with it; or if a member is glorified, all the other members rejoice with it.

Remember that the first will be last, and the last first, etc. Those who seat themselves at the front can be sent to the back and vice versa. There are vessels of all kinds, and we are "glorified" whether we end up taking a seat at God's footstool or a place at the right hand of Jesus.

(Romans 8:18-25) . . .For I consider that the sufferings of the present time do not amount to anything in comparison with the glory that is going to be revealed in us. 19 For the creation is waiting with eager expectation for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but through the one who subjected it, on the basis of hope 21 that the creation itself will also be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God. 22 For we know that all creation keeps on groaning together and being in pain together until now. 23 Not only that, but we ourselves also who have the firstfruits, namely, the spirit, yes, we ourselves groan within ourselves while we are earnestly waiting for adoption as sons, the release from our bodies by ransom. 24 For we were saved in this hope; but hope that is seen is not hope, for when a man sees a thing, does he hope for it? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we keep eagerly waiting for it with endurance.

So maybe Paul is giving ALL of us this idea about accepting the spirit into our hearts, the same spirit that makes Christians adopted as sons. The same spirit that makes all of "brothers." Do you think only the anointed should pray, "Our Father in heaven, let your name be sanctified?" If Jehovah is our Father then we are his children, his sons. We would therefore call him "Abba" in Aramaic. This is not an intimate expression special to the anointed. It does not mean "papa" or "daddy" in some childish sense. It's the word that adults also used in Aramaic to refer to their father respectfully. This is also made clear by what Jesus is recorded as saying in Matthew:

(Matthew 23:8, 9) . . .and all of you are brothers. 9 Moreover, do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your Father [Aramaic, "Abba"], the heavenly One.

It has nothing to do with what the governing body is supposedly saying. Also, the governing body has never said, and will never likely ever say, that the elders are part of the 144,000. The elders will never be considered a part of Christ's body except to the small extent that they represent and help deliver the spiritual food provided by the faithful slave.

[Anna]

10 hours ago, JW Insider said:

primary purpose of God sending the spirit into the hearts of Christians, a kind of anointing by holy spirit, is so that we will produce the fruitage that grows from that spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness and self-control. LHM highlighted love and faith and added obedience. This is appropriate too,

True, and this is why it can be said that those who leave the Christian congregation, or those who become Christians in name only, generally stop producing the fruitage of the spirit because Jehovah no longer gives it to them.....they "receive" a rebelious spirit instead. I see this plainly whenever I visit the ex-JW website and read their banter with each other. For the most part there is no mildness, patience, faith or self control. More like selfishness, sarcasm, haughtiness, and of course no faith....

[Srecko Sostar]

11 hours ago, JW Insider said:

(1 Thessalonians 3:12-5:1) . . .  4 Finally, brothers, just as you received instruction from us on how you should walk in order to please God, just as you are in fact walking, we request you and appeal to you by the Lord Jesus to keep doing it more fully. 2 For you know the instructions we gave you through the Lord Jesus. . . .  just as we told you previously and also strongly warned you. . . .9 However, concerning brotherly love, you do not need us to write to you, for you yourselves are taught by God to love one another. . . . 11 Make it your aim to live quietly and to mind your own business and to work with your hands, just as we instructed you, 12 so that you may walk decently in the eyes of people outside and not need anything. . . . 18 So keep comforting one another with these words. 5 Now as for the times and the seasons, brothers, you need nothing to be written to you.

Strictly speaking, WT and GB failed in fundamental instruction made by Paul.

...Make it your aim to live quietly and to mind your own business and to work with your hands, just as we instructed you...

... 5 Now as for the times and the seasons, brothers, you need nothing to be written to you.

All sort of programs, activities in HQ and WT Branches have people who not earn daily brad with own hands, but with donated money. Yes they working something. That is not issue. But their "products" should not be for "sale" and  for making money for "daily brad", pocket money, healthcare, pension, accommodation etc. This is way how one group of people living on cost of other group of people. And this forms classes inside "you all are brothers".  

Some JW members are fascinate more some less with individuals inside Bethels and Bethel service as whole. In general JW's minds these places are sort of "center of spirituality and spiritual paradises". Both sides contribute to such misapprehensions. 

World HQ and Branches not contributing to "quiet life" with these structure, system that is same as in some other organizations who living on cost of members. Never ending alerts about "end is near" making JW people to live in "mental and spiritual noise", and that for sure can't bring to "live quietly and to mind your own business". Because, living in alert state don't bring to inside silence and tranquility... but to many "futile" lives, or lives that could be used for something more.  GB contributed and still doing today to so many explanations on "times and seasons" multiple and repeated writings, publishing materials .. contrary to Paul who wrote 20 century before - you need nothing to be written to you.  

 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

8 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I thought I was pointing out something that was obvious. The spirit may very well reveal a specific assignment in heaven or on earth. But it's the same spirit. Regarding Galatians 5:22, have you ever heard anyone say that the fruitage of the spirit (love, joy, peace . . . kindness, goodness, faith, etc.) is only for those who are anointed? No one ever says that. Except that the entire book of Galatians was sent to those addressed like this:

(Galatians 4:6, 7) . . .Now because you are sons, God has sent the spirit of his Son into our hearts, and it cries out: “Abba, Father!” 7 So you are no longer a slave but a son; and if a son, then you are also an heir through God.

To the Romans, Paul said the same things he says in Galatians 4&5:

(Romans 8:14-17) 14 For all who are led by God’s spirit are indeed God’s sons. 15 For you did not receive a spirit of slavery causing fear again, but you received a spirit of adoption as sons, by which spirit we cry out: “Abba, Father!” 16 The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 If, then, we are children, we are also heirs—heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ—provided we suffer together so that we may also be glorified together.

The statements are about how there are only two choices, the spirit or the flesh. So I'm not saying anything about the specific anointing for the heavenly hope. That's a separate issue. Whether we believe we are appointed to a heavenly hope or appointed to an earthly hope, it's still the same "one hope, one faith, one baptism" for the creation which is currently sighing and groaning to eagerly await the revealing of the sons of God. If Adam was a son of God, although appointed to an earthly hope, then surely there will come a time when those who pass through the millennium, at least, although of the earthly hope, will also be considered "sons of God." I also believe that this same spirit will reveal a desire for a heavenly hope for some, although I don't really believe that we humans are really capable of knowing exactly where Jehovah may wish to assign our part in the new system.

(1 Corinthians 12:22-26) . . .On the contrary, the members of the body that seem to be weaker are necessary, 23 and the parts of the body that we think to be less honorable we surround with greater honor, so our unseemly parts are treated with greater modesty, 24 whereas our attractive parts do not need anything. Nevertheless, God has so composed the body, giving greater honor to the part that had a lack, 25 so that there should be no division in the body, but its members should have mutual concern for one another. 26 If one member suffers, all the other members suffer with it; or if a member is glorified, all the other members rejoice with it.

Remember that the first will be last, and the last first, etc. Those who seat themselves at the front can be sent to the back and vice versa. There are vessels of all kinds, and we are "glorified" whether we end up taking a seat at God's footstool or a place at the right hand of Jesus.

(Romans 8:18-25) . . .For I consider that the sufferings of the present time do not amount to anything in comparison with the glory that is going to be revealed in us. 19 For the creation is waiting with eager expectation for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but through the one who subjected it, on the basis of hope 21 that the creation itself will also be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God. 22 For we know that all creation keeps on groaning together and being in pain together until now. 23 Not only that, but we ourselves also who have the firstfruits, namely, the spirit, yes, we ourselves groan within ourselves while we are earnestly waiting for adoption as sons, the release from our bodies by ransom. 24 For we were saved in this hope; but hope that is seen is not hope, for when a man sees a thing, does he hope for it? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we keep eagerly waiting for it with endurance.

So maybe Paul is giving ALL of us this idea about accepting the spirit into our hearts, the same spirit that makes Christians adopted as sons. The same spirit that makes all of "brothers." Do you think only the anointed should pray, "Our Father in heaven, let your name be sanctified?" If Jehovah is our Father then we are his children, his sons. We would therefore call him "Abba" in Aramaic. This is not an intimate expression special to the anointed. It does not mean "papa" or "daddy" in some childish sense. It's the word that adults also used in Aramaic to refer to their father respectfully. This is also made clear by what Jesus is recorded as saying in Matthew:

(Matthew 23:8, 9) . . .and all of you are brothers. 9 Moreover, do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your Father [Aramaic, "Abba"], the heavenly One.

It has nothing to do with what the governing body is supposedly saying. Also, the governing body has never said, and will never likely ever say, that the elders are part of the 144,000. The elders will never be considered a part of Christ's body except to the small extent that they represent and help deliver the spiritual food provided by the faithful slave.

I totally disagree with this comment and I'll repeat what I said, that in my opinion you are taking the side of your GB and trying very hard to bring down the true Anointed to a lower level. 

I've said many times that i believe the Greek scriptures were written to and for the Anointed.  I do not believe that the GB are anointed as 'by their works you will know them'. So therefore i do not believe that the GB understand God's word properly at all. 

In my opinion the Earthly class are only helpers of the Anointed, but do not have the same Bible understanding. Hence I believe that a True Anointed will 'rise up' when other 'certain things happen'.

I know i must be careful of my words, since John Butler was D/FED from this forum. 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

3 hours ago, Anna said:

True, and this is why it can be said that those who leave the Christian congregation, or those who become Christians in name only, generally stop producing the fruitage of the spirit because Jehovah no longer gives it to them.....they "receive" a rebelious spirit instead. I see this plainly whenever I visit the ex-JW website and read their banter with each other. For the most part there is no mildness, patience, faith or self control. More like selfishness, sarcasm, haughtiness, and of course no faith....

Oh @Anna you make me laugh. you really do. Are you so blind ?

Do you not know of the perversions and immorality in your CCJW ? 

Do you honestly think that Almighty God and/or Christ is guiding your GB and its org ?

I think that your GB are Christians in name only. I think that CCJW is Christian in name only.

You only have to look at the way the GB's Lawyers treat Victims of CSA. And look at how they are still hiding Paedophiles in the American part of your Org. 

And there have been plenty of things mentioned on this forum, mentioned by JWs it would seem, that show up the CCJW for what it really is. 

Going back a couple of years we had JWs on here telling how many weapons they have stored up in their homes. and one of those JWs seems to think that God is not bothered by war. 

I'm sure you have heard many JWs say things that you are not happy with, so please don't be so quick to judge others outside of CCJW. 

As a non active one, i can say that my faith in God and Christ is much stronger.  I feel 'free' to do my own investigating into God's word. i think in a more spiritual way. My prayers are not hindered. I am not putting my trust in men. I am not relying on being spoon fed every Sunday Watchtower which is only men's thoughts and words. Those thoughts and words which are not inspired of God. 

And you must remember too, that your GB and its org deliberately shun anyone that leaves the Org. So your GB and its Org members are also not showing love, mercy, mildness or kindness. 

[Kosonen]

42 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

As a non active one, i can say that my faith in God and Christ is much stronger.  I feel 'free' to do my own investigating into God's word. i think in a more spiritual way. My prayers are not hindered. I am not putting my trust in men.

4Jah2me, perfect, if you continue like this you might be rewarded with an anointing. But in a such case, the spiritual battle is not yet won. Becauase Satan will try to make every anointed disqualified with very tricky problems. Ultimately following the instructions Jesus and his closest disciples and apostles gave will lead to the salvation.

We have to pray about seemingly smal things that could in the end otherwise create big problems.

Luke 21:36 Keep awake, then, all the time making supplication that you may succeed in escaping all these things that must occur and in standing before the Son of man.”

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

I do not see myself worthy of anointing, not worthy of life in a paradise earth. 

I realise that my sins stack up to the heavens..  Only through God's mercy and Christ's judgement will I even get a resurrection. But if I can do even the smallest of things to help God's purpose move forward then I will have been blessed. 

[Kosonen]

2 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

I realise that my sins stack up to the heavens.. 

Hi Jah4me2, I just created a new topic you in mind about God's willingness to forgive us, according to Scriptures.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

 

3 hours ago, Kosonen said:

Hi Jah4me2, I just created a new topic you in mind about God's willingness to forgive us, according to Scriptures.

Thank you. I've just read it. It is very encouraging.