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TrueTomHarley

I have barely seen a more stupid chart in my life

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I have barely seen a more stupid chart in my life, apparently designed to demonstrate that there is no God:

641DE03C-CE10-4699-8CAF-641FC4581BC4.jpeg

See original: 

    Hello guest!

 

The dopiest part has to be the boxes at bottom and lower left. They pose a dilemma akin to: “Can God make a mountain that he cannot move?”

People who would have you believe that they are ‘thinkers’ assume they have knocked it out of the park with this ‘gotcha.’

The most skilled critical thinkers of our age employ their intellect to miss what is right before their nose. Their underlying assumption, entirely unproven, is that God should be Santa Claus, showering presents without regard for whoever is naughty or nice. If he doesn’t do that, then there must be no God.

[Edit....I played with this one all morning and eventually expanded it to something I put on my own blog. Comment on it here, if you will, not there, since my own comment section is selective and does not stay open long in any event:

    Hello guest!
 ]

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Well that's an easy one:

"An all powerful, all knowing all good God could and would destroy Satan"

Of course, just not on that idiot's who made up the chart, time frame 😀

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In criticizing the above chart details are important.

The MOST IMPORTANT detail is the false assumptions used as part of the flow process.

It is important to critically analyze the PRESUMPTIONS used to set up any argument, treatise, or chart.

Of all the charts I have ever seen, the one that NOBODY in my congregation understands is the multiple generation chart referenced by GB member David Splane

The Elder in our congregation, probably the smartest person in the county, when I asked him about it, he was quiet for a moment and said "I think they are trying to do the best that they can ...", indicating to me that he can not make any sense of it.

Perhaps TTH can.(?)

generation-jw-tv-chart-sep-2015-splane.jpg

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@James Thomas Rook Jr., I know that I've already said more than my share about this chart. But there is one point that I have never seen discussed very clearly. It's the fact that it's another way of saying the following:

This generation will by all means have passed away before all these things occur.

That probably sounds bad, since Jesus said exactly the opposite. But look closely at the chart and note the actual earliest and latest bounds shown for:

|<-- "This Generation" -->|

On the chart, "This Generation" only reaches to the time when the last person anointed by the year 1914 has died. Notice that big gap before "The Great Tribulation." It does NOT continue to last into the period when a "group 2" anointed person remains alive after the persons from "group 1" have died. And the talks always imply that there are already no more living persons from "group 1."

Therefore "This Generation" already finished in 1992 or perhaps a few years after that, although no specific examples were ever brought up as possible candidates, even if unnamed. The idea is given that there may have been possible candidates from group 1 that outlived FWF, but we can assume that these would not have outlived him for very many years. These appear to already be dead based on indications from the talk that Brother Splane was giving.

Although some might try to stretch group 1, we should remember that a person is not considered "anointed" until they are baptized. A reasonable baptismal age seems to be from about 14 to 30, so we'll accept 14. For a person to be anointed by 1914, they should have been baptized, presumably as a "Bible Student" and therefore aware of the Watchtower's view of the sign in 1914. This means they were born by or before 1900, baptized by or before 1914, and would be at least 120 years old today if they were part of "This Generation."  

Therefore "This Generation" has already passed away, and all these things did not occur. So, clearly, we are being asked to believe the very opposite of what Jesus said about the generation.

Jesus: This generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.

Splane: This generation will by all means have passed away before all these things occur.

Whom do we choose to believe?

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3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Splane: This generation will by all means have passed away before all these things occur.

Whom do we choose to believe?

Yes, but don't forget we are now applying an untraditional concept for the word "generation", one based on (overlapping)  contemporaries of that generation. If you think about it, it was quite genial coming up with this "extension" 😄

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5 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Perhaps TTH can.(?)

Yes. The chart is used to account for such things that are yet in the future. Loan me that time machine you have stored behind the chicken coop. I’ll race forward, check it out, and assuming you have left me with a full tank of gas, return to let you know what I’ve found.

Most likely it is going to come down to some old buzzard who refuses to die, and everyone wishes he would because he remains the last overlapping link, but he appears more and more vigorous with each passing day,  and he buttonholes all he see to tout the virtues of his line of health supplements..

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1 hour ago, Anna said:

Yes, but don't forget we are now applying an untraditional concept for the word "generation", one based on (overlapping)  contemporaries of that generation. If you think about it, it was quite genial coming up with this "extension" 😄

The only thing I consider when reading "..this generation will not pass away until all these things occur" ... is what did the Apostles understand it meant when Jesus said it to them?

All else is FANTASY!

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1 hour ago, Anna said:

Yes, but don't forget we are now applying an untraditional concept for the word "generation"

We are, yes, but notice that the chart explicitly names "This Generation" from the quote in Matthew 24:34, and while we may have a specially defined "generation" that includes "This Generation," there is all that gap going up to the Great Tribulation that starts from just after 1992 up until the GT. That part is not part of "This Generation" (according to Splane's chart) even if it's part of our new definition of "generation."

Perhaps this is a mistake, and the chartmaker just forgot to extend our meaning of generation going all the way up to the Great Tribulation. It's pretty obvious that "all these things" must include the Great Tribulation according to Matthew, Mark and Luke.

[edited because it was even less clear before the edit]

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It's like buying gas during the Jimmy Carter Administration.  You could only fill up your tank on odd number days if your license plate ended in an odd number, or on even numbered days if your license plate ended in an even number , or if you were an American Indian of Jewish descent and had SCUBA gear in your car.

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23 hours ago, JW Insider said:

edited because it was even less clear before the edit]

Was that even possible? 😂

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On 4/20/2020 at 11:22 PM, JW Insider said:

Perhaps this is a mistake, and the chartmaker just forgot to extend our meaning of generation going all the way up to the Great Tribulation. It's pretty obvious that "all these things" must include the Great Tribulation according to Matthew, Mark and Luke.

I see what you mean, it's like a chart within a chart. I think it's just trying to separate the "2nd generation" generation from the "1st generation" generation, which includes the overlap with both generations ending at an unknown time after 1992 (with a question mark), but it's then trying to show that the 2nd generation, which did not overlap with the 1st goes all the way to the GT.  Does that make sense? 🤔

In other words we have two classes of generation, an overlapping one and a non overlapping one 🤪

Reminds me a bit of when we got bogged down with types and anti types. I thought we were over that....?

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Alright, knock it off! This is my thread and it has to do with that stupid chart purporting to prove that there is no God.

I didn’t start it up so the ol pork chop could once again indulge one of his pet peeves and air yet another one of his grievances with the GB for the umpteenth time. Let him start up his own thread.

Tell him, ol hen. Tell him to start his own thread.

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31 minutes ago, Anna said:

Was that even possible? 😂

LOL. You got me there.

31 minutes ago, Anna said:

Does that make sense? 🤔

In other words we have two classes of generation, an overlapping one and a non overlapping one 🤪

It makes sense, up to a point. Very expressive emojis, btw.

But TTH is right. This topic does not overlap well with the OP. Guilty!

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18 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Alright, knock it off! This is my thread and it has to do with that stupid chart purporting to prove that there is no God.

I didn’t start it up so the ol pork chop could once again indulge one of his pet peeves and air yet another one of his grievances with the GB for the umpteenth time. Let him start up his own thread.

Tell him, ol hen. Tell him to start his own thread.

But this is the open club where anything goes!

crazy lady GIF

 

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On 4/20/2020 at 5:14 PM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

 

Perhaps TTH can.(?)

generation-jw-tv-chart-sep-2015-splane.jpg

The more I think about it, the more I am surprised that you would continue to ridicule this, now that it was acquired powerful circumstantial evidence that it may turn out just this way. 

A stretch? Not the most likely meaning of generation? Possibly. Still, the GB began saying ‘the last of the last days’ about 6 months ago, just before a virus and worldwide collapse that couldn’t fit better with such a description came along. Even if it seems from a distance not the most likely explanation, there is nothing illogical about it, nothing fictional, that you should continue to laugh your sides off. It is only your disrespect for those taking the lead that makes you do this. There is nothing about the explanation that rings false in itself, and now much that suggests it might be true.

You should reassess your ridicule. It smacks too much of Dathan splitting his sides laughing at Moses’ chart of how the earth would open up.

.....

“Zena! Zena! Oh no! Poor Zena. Why didn’t she listen to Jehovah?”

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It is so lovely to read all you JWs disagreeing with each other over the stupid Generation chart and overlapping generations. 

But does it make you opposers if you are still in the org ? Or does one have to leave the org to be an opposer ? 

Whichever, it is just one more proof that the GB do not have God's blessing or Holy Spirit. 

The blind leading the blind. Or maybe overlapping blind all falling into the pit.

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Thank you for 'shooting down' your GB and showing how unreasonable they are.

I think it is out of fear of being disfellowshipped or worse, that JWs of any rank do not speak plainly about such rubbish, directly to the GB. But then it is probably not possible for a 'brave person' to even get close enough to tell them to their face. 

Respect is one thing, worship is another. But it's probably more like fear. 

You all think your organisation has God's name, but you all sit back and let the GB make a mockery of it. 

And now you will of course jump to their defence. But time and time again you bring out all the Bible Students / CCJW lies / mistakes / false claims. And yet you think poeple should trust this GB and its Org. 

As for TTH, well he's a writer and writers love fairy tales. 

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15 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

And now you will of course jump to their defence.

People should be defended wherever possible. The motives can be quite pure and still mistakes are made. In fact, I would say that there are specific good motives that make certain kinds of mistakes even more likely. I'm pretty sure that's why we have extra warnings in the Bible about not being misled when it comes to speculation about the end-time events. Paul said not to be quickly shaken from your reason nor to be alarmed either by an inspired statement or by a spoken message or by a letter appearing to be from us. Obviously, the end-time events get us all excited, and these are the most likely times and events that persons would be speculating upon.

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Maybe someone smarter than me could put together a power point presentation on how this topic evolved from a discussion about a ludicrus power point presentation on a attempt to disprove God, evolving to a discussion about the insane theory of the overlapping generations, to the validity of the governing bodies words, value and worth..

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3 hours ago, Matthew9969 said:

Maybe someone smarter than me could put together a power point presentation on how this topic evolved from a discussion about a ludicrus power point presentation on a attempt to disprove God, evolving to a discussion about the insane theory of the overlapping generations, to the validity of the governing bodies words, value and worth..

I could do it, but it might take several months ... at $175.00 an hour.

When the check clears the bank, I will start.

In God I trust.

...all others pay cash.

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8 hours ago, Matthew9969 said:

Maybe someone smarter than me could put together a power point presentation on how this topic evolved from a discussion about a ludicrus power point presentation on a attempt to disprove God, evolving to a discussion about the insane theory of the overlapping generations, to the validity of the governing bodies words, value and worth..

Well most topics now seem to go totally off topic, but the link between the two diagrams is, that neither designers (of the diagrams) are inspired of God, and neither designers have a clue as to their subject matter, and both just make it up as they go along. Thereby creating the point about the latter's value and worth. 

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12 hours ago, JW Insider said:

People should be defended wherever possible. The motives can be quite pure and still mistakes are made. In fact, I would say that there are specific good motives that make certain kinds of mistakes even more likely. I'm pretty sure that's why we have extra warnings in the Bible about not being misled when it comes to speculation about the end-time events. Paul said not to be quickly shaken from your reason nor to be alarmed either by an inspired statement or by a spoken message or by a letter appearing to be from us. Obviously, the end-time events get us all excited, and these are the most likely times and events that persons would be speculating upon.

Um, just like Jesus defended the Pharisees ? Offspring of vipers, whitewashed graves, hypocrites etc....

A TRUE F&DS would not make mistakes. Why ? Because they would be waiting on God through Christ, for true guidance. They would simply say 'We do not know yet' or 'God has not given us that information yet'. That would be being humble. 

A TRUE F&DS wound not 'be speculating upon' anything. 

Are JWs so weak of faith that they need this ? Quote  'the end-time events get us all excited' 

So the GB and it's Writing department has to feed you with lies / false words / speculation / false prophecy, just to keep you all in the flock. What was it one of them said ? We are in the final part of the final last days.

So you seem to be saying that the Apostle Paul was warning you against your own Governing Body. 

And then the GB say 'God and Christ trust us, so you should trust us'.

Look, I'm not even on 'deep thinking mode here', but the hypocrisy is so openly obvious. 

If God, through His written word, has to warn you against your own leaders, then there is a deep problem with you leaders. 

I keep thinking about the fact that Moses didn't enter the promised land. Why ? 

 

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5 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Um, just like Jesus defended the Pharisees ? Offspring of vipers, whitewashed graves, hypocrites etc....

Absolutely. It depends on the context. Jesus also said:

(Matthew 23:2, 3) . . .“The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the seat of Moses. 3 Therefore, all the things they tell you, do and observe, . . .

(Mark 12:28-34) . . .One of the scribes who had come up and heard them disputing, knowing that he had answered them in a fine way, asked him: “Which commandment is first of all?” . . . 32 The scribe said to him: “Teacher, you spoke well, in line with truth, ‘He is One, and there is no other besides him’; 33 and to love him with one’s whole heart, with one’s whole understanding, and with one’s whole strength and to love one’s neighbor as oneself is worth far more than all the whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.” 34 At this Jesus, discerning that he had answered intelligently, said to him: “You are not far from the Kingdom of God.”

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(Matthew 23:2, 3) . . .“The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the seat of Moses. 3 Therefore, all the things they tell you, do and observe, . . .

Was that a defence of them ? Because Jesus follows up with :-

 but do not do according to their deeds, for they say but they do not practice what they say.

    Hello guest!
  They bind up heavy loads and put them on the shoulders of men,
    Hello guest!
 but they themselves are not willing to budge them with their finger

13 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut up the Kingdom of the heavens before men; for you yourselves do not go in, neither do you permit those on their way in to go in.

I think your GB have seated themselves in the seat of Moses. But whereas the Pharisees were in rightful possession of that place, your GB are not. 

Getting back to Paul that you quoted. You wrote.   Paul said not to be quickly shaken from your reason nor to be alarmed either by an inspired statement or by a spoken message or by a letter appearing to be from us. 

The scripture at 2 Thessalonians v 1 & 2 says :-

 However, brothers, concerning the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you  not to be quickly shaken from your reason nor to be alarmed either by an inspired statement or by a spoken message or by a letter appearing to be from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here.

So Paul warned that some would be talking about our being gathered together to him, and about  the effect that the day of Jehovah is here. 

The Governing Body of CCJW talk about both. They have spoken about when they will be 'taken up to heaven' and they continually talk about 'the final part of the final last days'. 

As I've already said, the Apostle Paul was warning against your GB. But all JWs continue to follow the GB through the CCJW.

It honestly makes no sense to me because I believe that most JWs (boots on the ground not ones in positions of authority) are good honest people that are searching for truth. 

But then maybe Catholics and Protestants church goers are basically good honest people too and searching for truth. 

The GB / CCJW just tells different lies. The proof being that Paul warned against it. 

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3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

(Matthew 23:2, 3) . . .“The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the seat of Moses. 3 Therefore, all the things they tell you, do and observe, . .

I am always happy when JWI does the heavy lifting for me ... as a Barbarian the only thing I have going for me is single minded focus, which can be good ... or bad.

From my many comments here one might very reasonably think I  am on a quest to destroy the Governing Body, and that they are my sworn enemy, but that would be a stretch of enormous proportions, basically because that is not the case at all.

I would like to see MANY reforms, so that others are not chased away from the TRUTH, as I could have been, through no want of considerable effort by clueless Elders, and that others do not have to experience the persecution and discouragement I have faced, because of choosing a life of pursuing the things that interested me, about which Jehovah God has not expressed any opinion on whatsoever, in any way, shape or form, but which offends the sensibilities of those not so inclined. ( Classic example: skydiving, having a beard, and imitating at least two of the Apostles, being armed at all times).

Jehovah did not appoint the scribes and Pharisees of Jesus' day, neither did he appoint the Governing Body.

BOTH took it upon themselves to "seat themselves in the seat of Moses", a job that I appreciate, and I appreciate that for the most part, their motives and motivation are as pure as the wind driven snow .... sometimes not ...but willy-nilly, the largest problem is the talent pool available.

The GB is recruited from humans ... big ugly nasty, frail, error prone, illogical, greedy and seriously flawed bags of water, sloshing around usually doing the best they can, each with individual "thorns in their side", that stab them and throw them off balance.

I understand this, and I understand that currently there is NO WAY TO GET AROUND IT.

So, without any duplicity, or being two faced, I agree with the principle for the Governing Body the same as what Jesus said for the scribes and Pharisees, of his day..

(Matthew 23:2, 3) . . .“The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the seat of Moses. 3 Therefore, all the things they tell you, do and observe, . .

After three years and about six months of being disfellowshipped, about five years ago, I could not compromise about the issue about which I was disfellowshipped, and say "I was sorry", and had three separate reinstatement hearings, the last of which I only promised never to do what got me disfellowshipped again.

By this time, the Elders had gotten to know me better.

They also began to understand the issue better.

At the first hearing, they may have been afraid I might shoot them.(?)

The last hearing only lasted about 4 minutes, less than ten minutes ... and they only asked me three questions.

1.) QUESTION: "What do you think of the Governing Body?"

    ANSWER: " I think I will have to agree with their self assessment in the February 2017 Watchtower, where they stated that they were neither inspired of God, or infallible."

2.) QUESTION: 'What do you not like about "The Truth?""

ANSWER: "Well, I could certainly do without Caleb and Sophia"

3.) QUESTION: "Will you support Jehovah and his Organization?"

ANSWER::" I always have. " ( correctly implying that I always will.)

This was on a Saturday.

They announced my reinstatement the following Tuesday, at a Circuit Overseer's visit.

So, if you who have left "The Truth" are encouraged by my resistance to stupidity, illogic, and injustices found among Jehovah's people, by my "bad example", and my rants and rails against what I have in the past referred to is "the clown car"., you are making the same mistake the Elders made.

The main reason I am so crude, and blunt, and un-diplomatic is that people glaze over with soft words spoken in dulcet tones, and they enjoy being hypnotized.

Also, I never have to remember what I have said .... or to who!!

If you have abandoned "The Truth", you have only shot yourself in the foot, and it takes awhile to bleed out.

Any involvement with any collection of people has the same foibles and weaknesses, and they are legion.

Don't throw the baby out with the bath water ... but it's OK to recognize and rail against bathwater that needs to be thrown out.

.... contrary to mainstream preferences.

For blind pawns, Justice must be tempered with mercy, or real love ceases to exist. (John 9:41)

.... and we are ALL, blind pawns, made from DNA.

 

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7 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I am always happy when JWI does the heavy lifting for me

Thanks, but your post contained a lot more heavy lifting than I could offer. I hope your own experience is taken to heart by those who see things only in very stark 'black and white' terms. I hope that @4Jah2me reads it with an open mind and sees answers to his own questions and issues.

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6 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

ANSWER::" I always have. " ( correctly implying that I always will.)

You know, I can get my head around this. I really can.

I’ll still refer to you from time to time as ‘the brother with the rotten attitude’ because who knows how many brothers you have stumbled in carrying on as you do. But I sort of understand where you are coming from as you have not made clear before—or if so, I did not pick up on it. 

What you say is like when someone dear to me told off some elders and I told Mack that I didn’t really approve of him telling off the elders, but..... “I understand,” Mack saved me the hassle of finishing the sentence.

6 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

and we are ALL, blind pawns, made from DNA.

The ministry is a treasure, but it is treasure in earthen vessels—us—with all the wacky foibles that humans are capable of. I once observed about beards: ‘Hippies and beatniks died out ages ago, it’s not in the Bible and to the extent it is, it is reverse. We are an organization of principles, not rules, and yet no rule is more strongly enforced than the no-beard rule. I’m glad that sucker has finally been put to bed, but it still tosses and turns in its sleep. 

You can complain about such foibles of organization to God. The trouble is, God will say, “Well, you are no great shakes yourself. You’ll all just have to work it out.” It’s a shame you’re not better at doing that, instead giving every appearance that you will be nursing a dozen grudges to your grave. Sometimes you just have to suck it up. All of us do. That’s life. It happens everywhere. 

Ah, well. We all have our hang ups. Even me.

I was walking my pet pig the other day and a man approached to say, “Hey, where did you find the pig?” Before I could open my mouth, the pig said. “I found him online, frequenting the WorldNewsMedia forum. We hit it off and have chummed together ever since.” I don’t get no respect either.

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10 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I’ll still refer to you from time to time as ‘the brother with the rotten attitude’ because who knows how many brothers you have stumbled in carrying on as you do.

You have no idea whatsoever, TTH. 

None.

Zero.

Zip.

Nada.

You do not know how many, and just HOPE that because I am not a conventional "Brother Watchtower", there just HAS to be some, or many, to explain this to your internal world view.

In this respect you are not a rational man ..... you are a RATIONALIZING man.

My honest and thoughtful estimation, having watched MANY dozens of people leave the Truth over the years, is that they are stumbled by the onerous policies, self aggrandizement, arrogant presumption that never apologizes for anything, ever, of the Governing Body, and the made up out of thin air fake theology ( a lifetime of studying types and anti-types that after a hundred years was finally admitted by Bro. Splane to be absolute drivel, is one classic example ... the never ending condemnation of beards is the other even you have commented on as absurd and onerous), that drowns out the core truth that is so magnificent, that we have.

Further honest and thoughtful evaluation of how many people I personally have contributed to driving away from the Truth, is zero, but I have been friends to some who were looking for an excuse to leave, and did NOT have me to use as an example, as outlined earlier.

According to current thinking, my being thrown out, should have ENCOURAGED them,

People, however, have looked at my attitude, demeanor, and my interests in things about which Jehovah God has given us Freedon and Liberty to do as we see fit, as sons of God, and exclaimed "How do you get away with not being disfellowshipped?"

That ..... breaks my heart, and has for many decades.

It's like having to carry around 80 pounds of concrete ..... always.

Many Brothers and Sisters with less insight and experience than I cannot carry that load, and drop it, because what they see makes no sense.

We have the TRUTH about God,and his Son, and God's plans for this Earth, and all of human kind.

People would naturally want to line up by the hundreds of millions to be a part of that.

We would not have to knock on their doors ... they would be pounding on OURS!

Tell me, TTH ... who is responsible for the 73% of all Jehovah's Witnesses who eventually leave the Truth?

Me?

 

 

 

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13 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

that drowns out the core truth that is so magnificent, that we have.

What drowned it out in the first century? In no time at all, the magnificent core truths were gone, thoroughly mixed in with philosophies of the day. To the extent the apostles and loyal ones tried to hold it back, no doubt reading false positives sometimes and overreacting, you would have been railing against them, too.

The trick is not to sanitize the present. It is to desanitize the past.

We’re not all that far apart, you blustering old pork chop.

26 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

but I have been friends to some who were looking for and excuse to leave, and did NOT have me to use as an example, as outlined earlier.

There is something to this. I am struck by the fact that those who leave and thereafter show their faces on the internet as ‘apostates’ have almost always forgotten all about the ‘core magnificent’ truths that they once cherished. The sighing and groaning that impelled them into the truth has been replaced by bitching and complaining that drove them out. They appear to have no problem replacing the satisfying explanation of why God permits suffering with ‘Stuff happens.’ Appreciation for the core and magnificent truths—gone, replaced by self-absorption into their own woes.

To that extent—although you bitch and complain more than any dozen of them put together, you have NOT forsaken the core magnificent truths and thus stay in the only place that holds them up high, even if they are not immune to the pig-headedness and pettiness of human nature. To that extent you deserve credit, though you carry on as disrespectfully as you do.

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1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Interesting observations, but missed the point entirely.

Who can tell what your point is, what with the non-stop diatribes and cartoons? You like to complain—THAT point stands out front and center. As to your other point—well, you’re some sort of ‘freedom-fighter,’ or ‘gunslinger,’ or ‘whistleblower,’ or something of that sort. Join the 21st century, where such ones proliferate like weeds.

The very fact that you were reinstated gives the lie to much of your accusations as to how controlling and abusive the JW organization is. They forgave some things, overlooked others, and let go of any grudges. It’s a shame you can’t find it within yourself to do the same.

What’s remarkable is how valiantly you defend Trump, practically kissing my feet when I wrote a post to that effect, wanting me to forward it to major outlets—and at the same time, you vehemently attack the GB. Yet both purportedly play the role, in different contexts, of representing and defending the amhaarets from the ‘elites.’ TDS (Trump Derangement Syndrome) for you means people who go apoplectic in rage at the President. WDS (Watchtower Derangement Syndrome—your own term) means for you exactly the opposite—people who DO NOT go apoplectic in criticizing the GB, but who would defend them.

You’re a piece of work! Fortunately for you, you’re in an organization that puts up with and even welcomes pieces of work. All the ‘balanced’ people are out chasing the goals of this system of things and are, at the moment, experiencing nightmares, fearing it will all disintegrate. 

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@James Thomas Rook Jr.

I don't quite know why, but you remind me of the character Douglas in the movie Bird Box, (played by John Malkowitch). He's an ornery son of a b... thinks he knows it all. In fact he does tell the group who are hiding from the monsters and doubt his rationale that: "I am NEVER wrong". The audience is thereby further convinced of Douglas' cynical but self aggradizing attitude and to stop him killing who he suspects has been "infected" the others tie him up. However, soon enough it becomes clear that Douglas was right after all....

But it's only a movie.

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3 minutes ago, Anna said:

played by John Malkowitch)

Check out John Malkovich playing Hercule Poirot. He offers a completely different take on him, poles apart from Suchet or even Finney.

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20 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Thanks, but your post contained a lot more heavy lifting than I could offer. I hope your own experience is taken to heart by those who see things only in very stark 'black and white' terms. I hope that @4Jah2me reads it with an open mind and sees answers to his own questions and issues.

I read it and thought it was 'rubbish'.  If James wishes to serve the GB and it's Org that's his choice.

3.) QUESTION: "Will you support Jehovah and his Organization?"

ANSWER::" I always have. " ( correctly implying that I always will.)

Firstly I don't agree that the CCJW is God's Org, neither do I agree that Jehovah is God's real name.

So I could not even want to go back to it. It would be hypocrisy. 

However, either James or Tom said something about when a person leaves the CCJW they basically also stop believing God's written word. This is nonsense. Unfortunately it seems that 99% of JWs are misinformed about many people that leave the CCJW.  A lot of us, as James made clear, are leaving MEN, not leaving GOD or Christ. Just think on that for a moment. Stop being so 'up there' just because your GB are 'up there' in their own minds. 

This stupid idea that the CCJW is the Ark. This stupid idea that one 'has to be a baptised JW to be saved'.  This idea that we are in 'the final part of the final last days' 

The overlapping generations. The CSA problems Earthwide.

The wording and purpose of the baptism questions is wrong.  

The Bible Studies which are actually a book study from GB invented propaganda. The books that will later be rejected by the GB themselves because of pretend 'new light'. 

The ministry using magazines which misquote scientists, doctors et al. and misuse scripture. 

What is there to like about the present day CCJW ? What is there to remain in that org for ? The whole foundation of the CCJW has gone. The love and the mercy are lost.

I have proven to myself that i can still love God through Christ by not being a JW. In fact I am stronger now as an individual because i am not using the congregation as a crutch. I can think clearer now by not having to worry about what i think or say. And my conscience is clear because I'm not part of an organisation that causes harm to others. (Even James here recognises the harm caused to others) I could no longer do ministry with the intention of bringing people into such an immoral organisation that does not teach truth but hides wicked ones within. 

Just one last point. Some of you make excuses for your GB and your Elders, saying that they are just human and can 'err'.  Well the disciples / Apostles were also just human and could just as easily 'err'. Should we then discard the Bible ? Well the way you tell it, it was written by uneducated stroppy men. BUT, we know they had God's Holy Spirit. That's how they managed to give us the scriptures. However that is what is missing in the CCJW, the Holy Spirit. The GB do not have it nor do they get guided by it. So then going down the ranks the Elders also do not receive it either. And nothing can be done properly, on God's behalf, without Holy Spirit. 

That is what I see and that is the main reason I am not a JW. 

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12 hours ago, Anna said:

I don't quite know why, but you remind me of the character Douglas in the movie Bird Box, (played by John Malkowitch). He's an ornery son of a b... thinks he knows it all. In fact he does tell the group who are hiding from the monsters and doubt his rationale that: "I am NEVER wrong".

I looked it up, and it is supposed to be a Science Fiction movie, but it appears to actually be a vulgar, violent, gory horror movie. (.?)

Did Douglas survive the movie? I suspect many did nor, but I do not watch deliberate horror

( I try to be never wrong ... it is EVER so embarrassing ... even if I am the only one that knows. ).

I did watch Stephen King's "Carrie", on TV, with Sissy Spacek, before I knew who Stephen King was, and it was advertised as a horror movie ( which I did not know), but I found t to be a Science Fiction (Telekenisis) movie.

Stephen King's wife actually gave the "woman's viewpoint", that created the character Carrie, in the beginning. She was emptying the trash, and saw his awful, discarded and crumpled up book manuscript, and offered to help.

 

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1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I looked it up, and it is supposed to be a Science Fiction movie, but it appears to actually be a vulgar, violent, gory horror movie. (.?)

Did Douglas survive the movie? I suspect many did nor, but I do not watch deliberate horror

I thought it was supposed to be science fiction of sorts, like Aliens, that type. I only decided to watch it because it had some good actors in it, like Malkowitch and Sandra Bullock. And no, Douglas did not survive. He dies because he wasn't wrong about the person who he suspected was dangerous. 

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8 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I looked it up, and it is supposed to be a Science Fiction movie, but it appears to actually be a vulgar, violent, gory horror movie.

The best cure for never ever watching that type of stuff is to have a job in which you are all alone, middle of the night, in some big creaky warehouse, and you begin to imagine a surprise around every corner or through every door.

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In Richmond Virginia, I once knew a Pioneer Brother who "worked" at nights in a funeral home, merely as a someone to be there with the stiffs, as apparently family or someone wanted someone there.  He LITERALLY got paid to sleep.

I thought of several practical jokes to play on him, but they were all too much work.

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1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I once knew

At Bethel in Brooklyn all brothers would be periodically assigned to either a few hours of after-dinner dish duty or a whole night of guard duty, which entailed walking through totally dark floors in the factories at Squibb (25/30 Columbia Heights) or the 4 main factories at 117 Adams. You would try not to bump into anything as you searched for "key boxes" with a flashlight. Then you'd turn a key and go on to find the next key box, using a page of ambiguous instructions instead of a map. If all the key boxes were hit correctly and in a timely manner every night, the Society could save a lot on insurance. Being the kind of non-sleeper that I am, I never did dish duty, and always swapped it for guard duty.

I was shown where a brother, 20-some years earlier, emptied 6 rounds into a roll of printing paper because he didn't know that rolls of paper can expand and contract due to temperature changes and the pops they make can sound like gunfire. 25 to 30 years earlier the Bethelites could still carry a gun on guard duty. This probably stopped in the 1950's, I'm not sure. It probably stopped soon after that shootout with the paper roll. 

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On 4/21/2020 at 4:15 AM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

The only thing I consider when reading "..this generation will not pass away until all these things occur" ... is what did the Apostles understand it meant when Jesus said it to them?

Whilst this an excellent contextual question, the apostles' understanding of what Jesus said is hardly a sole criteria for understanding what Jesus said, John 14:9.

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13 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:
20 hours ago, JW Insider said:

25 to 30 years earlier the Bethelites could still carry a gun on guard duty. This probably stopped in the 1950's,

Wasn’t that the day that JTR quit Bethel?

Good comeback!, and funny, too!

But cereally folks, I started studying the Truth in the 1960's,, and it was about the mid-60's that I noticed that a different culture was evolving.  Back then, if a JW family broke up, it was usually the husband left the wife for another woman, and the Society taught at that time that if a brother was a homosexual, or had sex with animals, it was NOT pornea, and she had no grounds for divorce. 

I am sure this caused a LOT of misery and suffering.

Today in the "pillowgate video" , the brother stated that if two Bethelites are sitting in facing chairs, naked, watching each other masturbate, that is also NOT pornea, because no one is touching another person.. I have posted that here, many times, so I will not do it again.

It is seriously creepy. Even the specificity of that is seriously creepy. Makes me wonder who got caught that could not be disfellowshipped.

The point of the above is that there are good reasons why I keep my own counsel on the matter of keeping and bearing arms, and being ready to defend the innocent at all times, and not pay too much attention to those in authority that have a long record of being seriously creepy ... and wrong.

 

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14 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Makes me wonder who got caught that could not be disfellowshipped.

"porneia" is not the only type of sexual misconduct that could result in disfellowshipping is it?

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19 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Back then,

My Bethel chum told me in the early 80s that he thought the old-timers at Bethel must marvel at how frail the younger generation was. Back in their day, counsel would be ‘You’ve got a rotten attitude, and you’d better straighten up!’ And the counseled one WOULD straighten up, and later say ‘Thanks for the counsel.’ Or they would decide the place was not for them and leave. But they wouldn’t melt into a puddle of mush as would more readily happen today.

19 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

It is seriously creepy.

I’ll take your word for it. It is probably someone’s thought that by getting specific, they can forestall anyone ‘going gay.’ They are likely as dumbfounded as any of our generation that sexual attraction has turned out to be as fluid as it has. Nobody, but nobody, of my generation would have seen it coming, regardless of how conservative or liberal they were. As a fringe orientation? Yes, of course. But as a movement going mainstream and shaming/bullying others into acceptance? Never. 

You should develop a little more discernment, a little more 1 Thess 5:12-14, It would suit you better.

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Quote @James Thomas Rook Jr.   The point of the above is that there are good reasons why I keep my own counsel on the matter of keeping and bearing arms, and being ready to defend the innocent at all times, and not pay too much attention to those in authority that have a long record of being seriously creepy ... and wrong.

I suppose this translates as :-

The way to remain in the CCJW is not to be a JW. In other words ignore what the ones at the top say and ignore those 'taking the lead in the congregation'........ So funny James. 

 

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56 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

So funny James. 

No, it's NOT funny.

It's sad beyond words to express.

And the scripture TTH quoted:

12 Now we ask you, brothers and sisters, to acknowledge those who work hard among you, who care for you in the Lord and who admonish you. 13 Hold them in the highest regard in love because of their work. Live in peace with each other. 14 And we urge you, brothers and sisters, warn those who are idle and disruptive, encourage the disheartened, help the weak, be patient with everyone.

It's a two way street ... we down at the bottom have to forgive the ones at the top when, in THEIR being idle and disruptive, screw up the works and try to make up theology from their own cultural predispositions.

Life is an experimental process. 

The Apostle was talking in general principles ... the same way that a Policeman or Fireman should be viewed ...it was not a blanket statement that applies to the ones in EVERY organization that are with their hard work and noble motives, incompetent screw ups that can ruin lives by the tens of thousands, because everyone is afraid to say anything.

How many Sisters', and childrens' lives were RUINED, forever, because the Society taught that their husbands having sex with men, and/or with animals was NOT grounds for divorce, and they were stuck in that "marriage" .... because NO ONE had the bravery to stand up and say THIS IS NONSENSE?

One, is too many.

 

 

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1 hour ago, 4Jah2me said:

I suppose this translates as :-

The way to remain in the CCJW is not to be a JW. In other words ignore what the ones at the top say and ignore those 'taking the lead in the congregation'........ So funny James. 

The whole reason we have a conscience is to be able to differentiate between when we get good advice, and get bad advice ... either from others, or even from our own decision making processes.

Sometimes ... what you say is true ... sometimes it is not true.

My own experiences illustrate that.

Infinite variety.

Get used to it.

It will never change.

That's the way the REAL world works.

 

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2 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

And the scripture TTH quoted:

12 Now we ask you, brothers and sisters, to acknowledge those who work hard among you, who care for you in the Lord and who admonish you. 13 Hold them in the highest regard in love because of their work. Live in peace with each other. 14 And we urge you, brothers and sisters, warn those who are idle and disruptive, encourage the disheartened, help the weak, be patient with everyone.

Paul didn’t write it this flowery.

2 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

How many Sisters', and childrens' lives were RUINED, forever,

It’s a little too soon to tell.

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@James Thomas Rook Jr.  What i find funny is that you are still sitting on the fence, or playing both sides. 

I would suggest JWI is doing the same.  

You say, "That's the way the REAL world works" 

I say, God's true organisation would be NO PART OF THAT WORLD.

The whole reason we have a bible trained conscience is to be able to tell the difference between truth and lies, and good and bad, from God's viewpoint.   

And to 'stop keeping company with' those people that promote / allow such things as you have mentioned. 

In that scripture you quoted i noticed these words who care for you in the Lord  but the GB and the hierarchy don't. And that reflects in the Elders that just follow the rules from the leaders. 

I quote you again " because NO ONE had the bravery to stand up and say THIS IS NONSENSE?

What does that tell you James ? Because it tells me that it is a dictatorship, ruled over by using fear of d/fed and shunning,  and it tells me that, as I've mentioned, the Elders just do as they are told by the dictators taking the lead.

And the dictators are the wicked slave that beat their fellow slaves. 

And to back up my point I'll try to quote 'the Writer' TTH, "No one can disfellowship the GB". 

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10 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

4J:

You have a habit of getting your attributions mixed up, and your analysis is too simplistic, as well as mixed up.

Details are important.

Matthew 11 v 25 & 26. 

At that time Jesus said in response: “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to young children. 26  Yes, O Father, because this is the way you approved. 

I am willing to be a young child for the sake of truth. I think you and others here deliberately try to complicate matters, to try to make yourselves look more intelligent. 

But if you wish to enlarge on your above comment, I'm willing to read it :) . 

However my points still stand and are still true.  

 

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Another factor is (I'm also going to address the atheist here later; he never likes to address his claims), people make such assumptions because they are well rooted in the belief also that God is Omnipresent, which is false. With this idea in mind, they conjure up the notion of God being everywhere, so he should have been able to prevent this or that, but such people fail to see what transpired in the Genesis Act of Creation with an honest mind. This is why when questioned, it is good to know these things, so you can have an answer for it, granted not everyone has the answer to something, but there is no shame in making an effort.

That being said, the chart is silly. Such ones should actually read the Bible for once.

 

On 5/2/2020 at 9:53 PM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

4J:

You have a habit of getting your attributions mixed up, and your analysis is too simplistic, as well as mixed up.

Details are important.

Or interpretations that seem to be lacking and or is driven more of an organism's way of thinking.

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14 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

people make such assumptions because they are well rooted in the belief also that God is Omnipresent, which is false. With this idea in mind, they conjure up the notion of God being

Yes. Simply quote one of those verses in which God says he is going to go down and check something out so as to see if it is so—such as the complaint made about Sodom.

“Then Jehovah said: “The outcry against Sodʹom and Go·morʹrah is indeed great, and their sin is very heavy.  I will go down to see whether they are acting according to the outcry that has reached me. And if not, I can get to know it.” (Genesis 18:20-21) 

He wasn’t there. He didn’t know. So he is not omnipresent. And he is not omniscient. 

The third member of this normal ‘trinity’ is omnipotent. Note how the chart has dropped ‘omnipresent’ to substitute ‘all-loving.’ This way they can harp on anything that isn’t going well and blame it on God—as though God’s role is to bless the doings of a society founded in rebellion against him, or prevent the inevitable bad consequences of such rebellion from occurring. 

Thus, every assumption skeptics make about God is wrong. No wonder their conclusions are so cock-eyed. Now, to be sure, those cock-eyed conclusions might remain even if they had begun with accurate knowledge—the pull away from God is far more rooted in emotion than in reason. The emotion pull is the urge to kick over the traces—to break free from anyone who would tell you what to do. In their insistence upon pursuing the petty freedoms that this world has to offer, chafing at anyone who would seem to restrict them, they end up overlooking the substantial freedoms that God supplies.

What can you do with people like that? In the case of those who once believed in God and abandoned it for atheism, you could liken it to the fellow who loses millions in the stock market. Undeterred, he celebrates the $10K that he still has left, reasoning about the rest: “They were just paper gains, anyway.”

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On 4/22/2020 at 5:26 AM, Anna said:

In other words we have two classes of generation, an overlapping one and a non overlapping one 🤪

Reminds me a bit of when we got bogged down with types and anti types. I thought we were over that....?

 

On 4/21/2020 at 12:25 AM, JW Insider said:

Although some might try to stretch group 1, we should remember that a person is not considered "anointed" until they are baptized.

It seems how WT Society have only one group of "anointed generation", and that is present GB. In his morning worship talk Mr. Malenfant explained this:

"we don't need to know all names of the anointed on earth today, ....

... in our congregations we see the emblems being passed and we can see individuals partaking in ...

...it would be pointless to try and ascertain  who among God's servants will eventually be part of 144000. The final judgement and sealing of the anointed is very private matter between JHVH and individual anointed ones......

.. and i might also add at this point. Even though we don't know about that personal relationship that comes about, we don't experience it ourselves, but we are convinced, for example, that the members of the GB have the heavenly calling." 

Mr Malenfant is person who can control his curiosity about things no one knows, not even he, but it seems how he knows all about that personal relationship and very private matter  that supposedly exist between GB members and JHVH.

:)))  and he try to manipulate audience with this "confidential information".

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On 4/28/2020 at 8:35 PM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

So, without any duplicity, or being two faced, I agree with the principle for the Governing Body the same as what Jesus said for the scribes and Pharisees, of his day..

(Matthew 23:2, 3) . . .“The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the seat of Moses. 3 Therefore, all the things they tell you, do and observe, . .

As @JW Insider emphasized about reasonableness, i would look at Jesus words and on practicing his words with little caution. Pharisees commanded  not to work on Sabbath, for example.

.... Well, Jesus done the opposite and he did not participate in do all the things they tell you. 

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8 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

In his morning worship talk Mr. Malenfant explained this:

Thank you, Srecko.  I heard this too and really can't get his blasphemy out of my mind. (Rev 13:5)

So, it would be “pointless” to find out just who are Christ’s “ambassadors”, (2 Cor 5:20) since the only names one needs to know (according to Malenfant) are those of the GB.  And, since it is a “very private matter”, what JW would dare talk to one of these other ambassadors? 

Rejecting the ambassadors/members of Christ’s body, is a rejection of Christ.  This is an absolutely stunning statement by Malenfant.  No other members of the Body, are apparently needed.  But, it’s been this way for a long while, since a “wicked slave” and its spiritually “drunk” elder body have worked together to beat down the Body of Christ, while exalting the body of elders.  Everyone, in every congregation knows exactly who the elders are. Matt 24:48-51

The anointed are allowing the GB/elders to cut them off from their Head, Jesus Christ. Their Master, their Head, has become the GB, who defies scripture concerning the anointed Body of Christ.

“They have lost connection with the head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.”  Col 2:19

 “For just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, so in Christ we, though many, form one body, and each member belongs to all the others.”  Rom 12:4,5

 “Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.”

“so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. “  1 Cor 12:7,25

 

“He will cause deceit to prosper, and he will consider himself superior. When they feel secure, he will destroy many and take his stand against the Prince of princes. Yet he will be destroyed, but not by human power.”  Dan 8:25

 

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Witness said:

since the only names one needs to know (according to Malenfant) are those of the GB. 

Yes  @Witness , you do preciously*, exactly summarized in a few words main message that this JW elder send to JW people.

No one else of "anointed" around the world is/represents nothing in WTJWorg, but only few of them in GB behaves as head of Organization and elevates themselves above all other anointed in the Body. It seems they acting as Head of Body or at least as the Neck (as in joke, man is head of his wife but she is the neck who rotate head :))) 

PS

 * precisely!

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10 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

but we are convinced, for example, that the members of the GB have the heavenly calling."

I feel that the majority of the "anointed" leaders of the organization from the beginning, were genuinely anointed to fulfill prophesy.  (Matt 5:14; 2 Pet 3:17; Rev 8:10,11; Matt 24:24)   Yet, I am not thoroughly convinced that all of today's GB members are.  When Malenfant said the above, how can one be totally convinced that each GB member is anointed when (someone correct me if I'm wrong) there is no account of any of their anointing experiences?  And why shouldn't there be? We have an incredible account in the Bible that all in the area witnessed its effect.  (Acts 2:1-3)  JWs are said to be honest in all things.  To say, "we are convinced" with no comment made by these men of their anointing experience is deceptive.  JWs are to take their word for it, but ignore any "word" from a genuine anointed in the organization.  The persuasive argument that Malenfant made is a war of words against the genuine anointed. (Rev 13:7)  In this case, it is one-sided unless a true anointed of God stands up and exposes truth outlined in scripture.  I so wish more would do so.

"Go now, write it on a tablet for them,
    inscribe it on a scroll,
that for the days to come
    it may be an everlasting witness.
9 For these are rebellious people, deceitful children,
    children unwilling to listen to the Lord’s instruction.
10 They say to the seers,
    “See no more visions!”
and to the prophets,
    “Give us no more visions of what is right!
Tell us pleasant things,
    prophesy illusions.
11 Leave this way,
    get off this path,
and stop confronting us
    with the Holy One of Israel!”

12 Therefore this is what the Holy One of Israel says:

Because you have rejected this message,
    relied on oppression
    and depended on deceit,

13 this sin will become for you
    like a high wall, cracked and bulging,
    that collapses suddenly, in an instant.

15 This is what the Sovereign Lord, the Holy One of Israel, says:

“In repentance and rest is your salvation,
    in quietness and trust is your strength,
    but you would have none of it.

18 Yet the Lord longs to be gracious to you;
    therefore he will rise up to show you compassion.
For the Lord is a God of justice.
    Blessed are all who wait for him!

19 People of Zion, who live in Jerusalem, you will weep no more. How gracious he will be when you cry for help! As soon as he hears, he will answer you. 20 Although the Lord gives you the bread of adversity and the water of affliction, your teachers will be hidden no more; with your own eyes you will see them. 21 Whether you turn to the right or to the left, your ears will hear a voice behind you, saying, “This is the way; walk in it.” 22 Then you will desecrate your idols overlaid with silver and your images covered with gold; you will throw them away like a menstrual cloth and say to them, “Away with you!”  (Isa 30)

Every priest under Christ, is to be a "teacher" of God's word, obedient to the teachings of Christ and not to those of men.  

 “For the lips of a priest (1 Pet 2:5,9) ought to preserve knowledge, because he is the messenger of the Lord Almighty and people seek instruction from his mouth."  Mal 2:7

JWs are not allowed to do this, and the anointed are not allowed to act as priests as outlined in scripture.

 

 

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Malenfant:

“We don’t need to know the names of all of the anointed on earth today.”

“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.”

The Greek word here interpreted as “know”:

ἐπιγινώσκω epiginṓskō, ep-ig-in-oce'-ko; from 

    Hello guest!
 and 
    Hello guest!
; to know upon some mark, i.e. recognize; by implication, to become fully acquainted with, to acknowledge:—(ac-, have, take)know(-ledge, well), perceive.

It is imperative for each of us to “know”, during our lifetime, who the anointed are, and what these “trees” teach.  We are to recognize their fruits as either good or bad – good from Jesus Christ; bad from the Father of the lie.  (John 8:44; Luke 6:45)  Thus, we come to “know” that anointed one, and what he or she teaches. ( Mal 2:7) 

 Anyone who welcomes you welcomes me, and anyone who welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me. 41 Whoever welcomes a prophet as a prophet will receive a prophet’s reward, and whoever welcomes a righteous person as a righteous person will receive a righteous person’s reward. 42 And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones who is my disciple, truly I tell you, that person will certainly not lose their reward.”   Matt 10:40-42

We cannot “welcome” any anointed disciple of Christ, if we are told to avoid them as an anointed teacher of Christ.  This includes knowing their name and the fruit they are to produce.  

When I was a JW, I thought that by providing, as an example, a place for an anointed one and his family to live in, was giving them a “cup of cold water”.  Jesus is the source of “living water”. (John 7:38) Those who remain “in Christ” will have that same “living water” flowing from their heart. In turn, anyone who “receives” these teachers producing “good fruit”, give back that living water that flows from their own heart as well, from their recognition of teachings produced in harmony with Christ’s truths.

The fruit they produce, signifies their “daily/regular sacrifices”/”constant feature” offered before God.  1 Pet 2:5; Heb 13:15; Rom 12:1; Rev 7:15

With smooth, seemingly “righteous” words, Malenfant aids in the “trampling” of the anointed priests/Temple “stones” in the organization. His words support the termination of each anointed one's sacrifices to be made before God.  Ezek 44:6-9; 2 Chron 13:9; Dan 12:11; 2 Thess 2:4

"His forces will rise up and desecrate the temple fortress. They will abolish the regular sacrifice and set up the abomination of desolation.”  Dan 11:31

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Witness said:

 To say, "we are convinced" with no comment made by these men of their anointing experience is deceptive.  JWs are to take their word for it, but ignore any "word" from a genuine anointed in the organization. 

Malenfant: ".....after all JHVH has blessed them, they fulfill Bible prophecy about FDS. There are certain things that we acquire knowledge about and were convinced of. We see JHVH favor on them, we have no doubt that JHVH blessing is upon their effort to take of the domestic and provide spiritual food all of us. But there's something we don't know. We have nothing to do with the final sealing. That is a personal thing that take place between individual and JHVH god and ..... that's what we're told and that's what we understand ..."  

Listen what words he used to prove the subject: after all, they fulfill prophecy, were convinced of, we have no doubt that JHVH is upon their effort, that's what we're told and that's what we understand.

Empty proves for spiritual blind mind to be convinced into deception, again.

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13 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

and i might also add at this point. Even though we don't know about that personal relationship that comes about, we don't experience it ourselves, but we are convinced, for example, that the members of the GB have the heavenly calling." 

Mr Malenfant is person who can control his curiosity about things no one knows, not even he, but it seems how he knows all about that personal relationship and very private matter  that supposedly exist between GB members and JHVH.

:)))  and he try to manipulate audience with this "confidential information".

I think you may have misunderstood what Malefant was saying. I don't think he was saying that he knows of some confidential information or details about the personal relationship of the GB with Jehovah, and the anointing, as opposed to any other anointed. I think what he was saying is that we cannot be sure if someone has been called to heaven, we have to take their word for it, and that might be a little difficult if for example someone who has obvious mental problems claims to be anointed. However, it should be a lot easier if that person is of sound mind. And then he quoted the example of the GB, we can see they are of sound mind, therefore there is no reason to doubt their anointing. 

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50 minutes ago, Anna said:

I think you may have misunderstood what Malefant was saying. I don't think he was saying that he knows of some confidential information or details about the personal relationship of the GB with Jehovah, and the anointing, as opposed to any other anointed. I think what he was saying is that we cannot be sure if someone has been called to heaven, we have to take their word for it, and that might be a little difficult if for example someone who has obvious mental problems claims to be anointed. However, it should be a lot easier if that person is of sound mind. And then he quoted the example of the GB, we can see they are of sound mind, therefore there is no reason to doubt their anointing. 

Thanks for respond.

I can't take this explanation to be useful in defending Malenfant reasoning. After he told how no one  in congregations knows who of anointed really received heavenly calling (congregants can only assume, guess and speculate, with visual observation, with the help of literal sight, how individuals who partaking symbols possibly have heavenly calling, as he explained) he went beyond own reasoning and conclusion and presentation about issue, and made second guess, thesis about same subject.

In his next demonstration about same class, 144000 kings and priests who are all equal in this position before god, he put his personal (or small group) opinion above general, official doctrine presented few seconds before. It is known how WTJWorg published how some anointed are emotionally and mentally imbalanced, ill and partaking in symbols. And by that concluding how god will not choose such individual. But Malenfant stated how this relationship is of personal relationship and very private matter. Well, who we are to interfere if god want few "crazy" people to go to heaven??!! 

On other hand, when you said:... and that might be a little difficult if for example someone who has obvious mental problems claims to be anointed. However, it should be a lot easier if that person is of sound mind.

If we are able to detect who is with mental problems and who have sound mind, it can be useful. But, what sort of mind (person) would/will devil use more for his purpose to deceive humankind with false doctrines? "Sound mind" or "mentally and emotionally disturbed mind"?? 

I am pretty sure in your answer :))

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2 hours ago, Anna said:

I think what he was saying is that we cannot be sure if someone has been called to heaven, we have to take their word for it, and that might be a little difficult if for example someone who has obvious mental problems claims to be anointed. However, it should be a lot easier if that person is of sound mind. And then he quoted the example of the GB, we can see they are of sound mind, therefore there is no reason to doubt their anointing. 

From a "human standpoint", which is what I imagine you are referring to, would you say that the GB member, David Splane had a "sound mind" when concocting the latest chart of "this generation"? 

Does it appear that A. Morris had a "sound mind" when visiting the liquor store? Or, when he spoke of people like charred hot dogs, in reference to the upcoming carnage at Armageddon?

Did Stephen Lett have a sound mind when he stated that it was all apostate lies that the organization had a child abuse problem?  Or, that there was "more money going out than coming in" which was followed with great plans to build media centers?

Did S. Herd have a sound mind when comparing the size of a woman's brain to that of a man as so much smaller, and how that limits her abilities?  

Just some reminders. :)  

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Listen what words he used to prove the subject: after all, they fulfill prophecy, were convinced of, we have no doubt that JHVH is upon their effort, that's what we're told and that's what we understand.

Well, I have no doubt....I am fully convinced...that they fulfill prophesy...as the wicked slave.  Jesus never told us that there was only one possibility, that being only a "faithful slave" as the GB suggests; if so, why would he have mentioned a wicked one. 

 

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On 5/14/2020 at 3:53 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

But Malenfant stated how this relationship is of personal relationship and very private matter. Well, who we are to interfere if god want few "crazy" people to go to heaven??!! 

You obviously mean that he could chose them while they are crazy on earth, but they would get cured and not be crazy in heaven. This could be the case, but it is difficult to imagine why Jehovah would pick someone who is crazy.

Mental illness takes many shapes and forms there is, just to mention a few:

  • Bipolar disorder. ...
  • Persistent depressive disorder. ...
  • Generalized anxiety disorder. ...
  • Major depressive disorder. ...
  • Obsessive-compulsive disorder. ...
  • Post-traumatic stress disorder ...
  • Schizophrenia. ...
  • Aspergers

With those disorders people act in a way that is not normal and one cannot rely on them to make sound decisions or act in a reliable way. And yes, it is true that it is Jehovah that picks the people, and since it is a private matter we cannot know. BUT logic AND the Bible tells me that that a Christian who is taking the lead must posses certain qualifications, and one of those is being sound in mind.

Titus 2:2 : Let the older men be moderate in habits, serious, sound in mind, healthy in faith, in love, in endurance. 

Titus 2:6-9 Likewise, keep on urging the younger men to be sound in mind, showing yourself to be an example of fine works in every way. Teach what is pure* with all seriousness, using wholesome* speech that cannot be criticized.

So in view of that, I am sure you would agree that many who have mental issues would have a problem with being sound in mind. We would expect elders, such as the GB to be sound in mind. We also expect the faithful slave to be of the anointed. So put those two together and we could understand why Malefant concluded that we can trust that the GB are of the anointed.

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@Anna  Thank you for a very funny comment.  I do find it funny how you. like many others, accept the 'pigeon holes' which 'the world' creates for people. Reminds me of Arauna with her OCD. But anyway I thought I'd add this scripture from the NWT which shows that even way back then they had depression. Now I wonder how many of those who were depressed, are now anointed ones.

! Thessalonians 5 :14

14  On the other hand, we urge you, brothers, to warn

    Hello guest!
 the disorderly,
    Hello guest!
 speak consolingly to those who are depressed,
    Hello guest!
 support the weak, be patient toward all

Quote :We would expect elders, such as the GB to be sound in mind. We also expect the faithful slave to be of the anointed.

In truth, you have no proof that the GB are either anointed or the F&DS. You just take their word for it. 

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On 5/16/2020 at 12:32 AM, Anna said:

This could be the case, but it is difficult to imagine why Jehovah would pick someone who is crazy.

WT publications explained something about similar on "anointed". While they are on earth and imperfect as any other human, they would be able to understand, from heaven, same sort of people they used to be in the past. :))

On 5/16/2020 at 12:32 AM, Anna said:

So put those two together and we could understand why Malefant concluded that we can trust that the GB are of the anointed.

Malenfant sort and model of argumentation was for one purpose only,  to show how exclusively GB is "appointed for sure" and have something to say. Contrary, every other appointed JW member have to be in question and under suspicion about his "call".

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On 5/15/2020 at 3:32 PM, Anna said:

Mental illness takes many shapes and forms there is, just to mention a few:

Watchtower 1952 Nov 15 p.703 -  "Being limited by the laws of the worldly nation in which we live and also by the laws of God through Jesus Christ, we can take action against apostates only to a certain extent, that is, consistent with both sets of laws. The law of the land and God's law through Christ forbid us kill apostates, even though they be members of our own flesh-and-blood family relationship. However, God's law requires us to recognize their being disfellowshiped from his congregation, and this despite the fact that the law of the land in which we live requires us under some natural obligation to live with and have dealings with such apostates under the same roof. Satan's influence through the disfellowshiped member of the family will be to cause the other member or members of the family who are in the truth to join the disfellowshiped member in his course or in his position toward God's organization. To do this would be disastrous, and so the faithful family member must recognize and conform to the disfellowship order. How would or could this be done while living under the same roof or in personal, physical contact daily with the disfellowshiped? In this way: By refusing to have religious relationship with the disfellowshiped." 

 

Dear Anna,

Is the above teaching, "new light", or "new" darkness?   I hope you have thoroughly read it.   It is a total, severe turnaround in beliefs concerning disfellowshipping/excommunication, that shows a significant, serious, sign of mental imbalance by WT’s leaders' which occurred within five brief years after the article below was published.  This obvious imbalance affects every JW over the years down to today in only negative ways.   Yet, with one swipe of the tongue any other anointed one, is easily condemned as being "mentally ill". 

Once, as a harrowed mother of three small boys, I wore two different shoes to the meeting.  I can just imagine the rumors that flew about my own "imbalance".  In those days, no one was aware of my anointing, but if they had been, it is very possible that many of my actions would have been interpreted as signs of mental illness. All, because I was striving to be a model wife of an elder, keeping three rambunctious children in line as expected of me by the organization.   The organization itself, can be the catalyst that drives a member to suffer from mental illness.   Its leaders are responsible for fomenting the idea that anointed are most likely mentally ill. 

 

 

 

 

g47-jan-8-p.27-excommunication.jpg

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@Anna That is understandable, it is even sad and difficult if the one with said mental depravity is a young person.

It is also safe to say that there are some who are better equipped to handle such, even among church congregants, while some are not as equipped. Among teaching people on how to deal with such ones, this must also be taught. Likewise if a teacher or someone in the medical field can be taught to deal with such an event, why not others.

 

That being said, as for this topic, I guess we are back again with Excommunication, even though the points have been made time and time again.

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 I agree with the principle for the Governing Body the same as what Jesus said for the scribes and Pharisees, of his day..

(Matthew 23:2, 3) . . .“The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the seat of Moses. 3 Therefore, all the things they tell you, do and observe, . .

Although I have many points of disagreement with the Governing Body, looking back on my 73 years, half of which were wasted or will be wasted in the natural consequences of self-destructive works, or the consequences thereof, I realize the absolute truth of this scripture.

 

 

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1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

 

 I agree with the principle for the Governing Body the same as what Jesus said for the scribes and Pharisees, of his day..

(Matthew 23:2, 3) . . .“The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the seat of Moses. 3 Therefore, all the things they tell you, do and observe, . .

Although I have many points of disagreement with the Governing Body, looking back on my 73 years, half of which were wasted or will be wasted in the natural consequences of self-destructive works, or the consequences thereof, I realize the absolute truth of this scripture.

 

 

Well one of the things the GB through their 'management' told 'you' as a congregant, was to not report Child Sexual Abuse to the police or outside authorities. 

And another thing it told congregation elders was not to name paedophiles in the congregations and not to tell the whole congregation that there was a paedophile amongst them. 

And you agree with that in principle ?  Doesn't that makes you part of the problem ?

I think to use that scripture as a generalisation is not so good.  

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 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat.  Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do. 4 For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.  Matt 23:3,4

Jesus is speaking of the law given to Moses, which was was to be observed.   He wasn't referring to the additions made by men - by the Pharisees. The "cumbersome loads" were these additional laws tacked on to the laws given to Moses by God.    

Today, we follow the "law" in Christ - his teachings; not made up laws that the GB are so good at contriving, for the sake of "organization".   The GB do not sit in Moses' seat, although they try so hard to. Christ has fulfilled the law, with his reign superior to that of Moses.  

Reading the entire 23rd chapter of Matthew gives a better view than concentrating on those two scriptures.  

Mark 7:6-9  He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:

‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’

8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men—the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition.

 

Traditions, necessary to run an organization.  

 

 

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On 4/21/2020 at 2:25 AM, JW Insider said:

This means they were born by or before 1900, baptized by or before 1914, and would be at least 120 years old today if they were part of "This Generation."  

Since not all family lineages started at 1900 (not all are the same age) it means that anyone born in the time of the 1914-generation is still part of the 1914-generation. Anyone that is anointed in the time between 1900 and say 1992 could hence still be part of that 1914-generation because in a generation all are not the same age.

I always had a problem with the old definition of generation because I understand from history that all living at the same time are not the same age.

Abraham was part of the "post-flood" generation.  Why? He was born when Shem was still alive. Between Shem and Abraham there were 427 years. In this time 10 new generations were born and until ALL of them died off after shem died, they were still part of the post- flood generation. So Abraham was of the post-flood generation. 

Noah died 2 years before the birth of Abraham.....he was of the Pre-flood generation. So after Noah died - all those born in his lifetime and who could contact him and could benefit from his wisdom about pre-flood generation stories, was of his generation. Noah he lived to see the beginning of 9 generations of his decendants. These were all part of his generation until they died off after his death.

Shem lived at least until 75 years AFTER abraham entered Canaan.  My numbers could be slightly off......as I did it in haste but this is to illustrate what a generation means.  This is the criteria for a generation. 

When I speak of Russel's generation, i think of the elderly in his generation born in say 1870 and all those born after until Russel died. Those who then died after Russel died and  were born while he was alive is still part of his generation.

A generation could also be a set time by jehovah - as before the flood -120 years.

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3 hours ago, Arauna said:

Since not all family lineages started at 1900 (not all are the same age) it means that anyone born in the time of the 1914-generation is still part of the 1914-generation.

All I can do is give you my opinion on this, and hope you don't take it too harshly and think it's somehow about you. A lot of us (Witnesses) have been forced into a corner on this one, hoping that we can find a way to express the doctrine in a convincing way. My father is 88, and has been an elder for 50 years and a congregation servant / presiding overseer for another 15 years prior to that. I don't think there was ever a Watchtower doctrine that he didn't try to defend to the very best of his ability. My father said he believed that this new generation theory made sense and he would defend it just as he had defended all the previous generation theories for the past 80-some years. 

But I finally asked him to explain it, and he laughed, and knew immediately that it was not possible. Instead he explained how the brothers were doing the best they can because there has to be an explanation if this system goes beyond 2034. (He believes that 2034 would be the last possible year that the OLD theory about "generation" could still make sense Biblically.) He also bases this idea on the Noah "generation."

My mother took a shot at it, and when she realized that she could not make a sensible rationale to defend the theory, she also ended up saying that it will probably still happen within the time period of 120 years from 1914, but that this "overlapping" explanation was just the closest way to allow for that without actually putting the date 2034 out there. She is one of those who believes, "let the reader use discernment" when reading the Watchtower's last mention of the 120 years before the new "generation" theory was given:

*** w03 12/15 p. 15 pars. 6-7 Our Watchfulness Takes On Greater Urgency ***
In Noah’s day, Jehovah declared: “My spirit shall not act toward man indefinitely in that he is also flesh. Accordingly his days shall amount to a hundred and twenty years.” (Genesis 6:3) The issuance of this divine decree in 2490 B.C.E. marked the beginning of the end for that ungodly world. Just think what that meant for those then living! Only 120 years more and Jehovah would bring “the deluge of waters upon the earth to bring to ruin all flesh in which the force of life is active from under the heavens.”—Genesis 6:17.
7 Noah received the warning of the upcoming catastrophe decades in advance, and he wisely used the time to prepare for survival. “After being given divine warning of things not yet beheld,” says the apostle Paul, “[Noah] showed godly fear and constructed an ark for the saving of his household.” (Hebrews 11:7) What about us? Some 90 years have passed since the last days of this system of things began in 1914. We are certainly in “the time of the end.” (Daniel 12:4) How should we respond to warnings we have been given? “He that does the will of God remains forever,” states the Bible. (1 John 2:17) Now is therefore the time to do Jehovah’s will with a keen sense of urgency.

BTW, my grandmother-in-law just died at 105 on Saturday. She would have been 106 in a couple of months. We had a small memorial service with a family gathering. No Zoom. A cremation was already done. She was not anointed, but was born in 1914 just before the Great War. She survived the Spanish Influenza and apparently would have survived this most recent pale imitation, except that an intestinal blockage got her instead. She lived right up to the end with perfect teeth, perfect hearing, perfect eyesight, and a better memory than most anyone I ever knew. She always joked that she was a freak of nature. But I bring this up because a Witness mentioned the supposed 120 year limit on a human lifespan. And, of course, if she had been anointed, would she have qualified the first group of the overlapping generation to include persons who were born in 2020?

*** kr chap. 1 pp. 11-12 par. 18 “Let Your Kingdom Come” ***
The generation consists of two overlapping groups of anointed ones—the first is made up of anointed ones who saw the beginning of the fulfillment of the sign in 1914 and the second, anointed ones who for a time were contemporaries of the first group. At least some of those in the second group will live to see the beginning of the coming tribulation. The two groups form one generation because their lives as anointed Christians overlapped for a time.

Anyone who was anointed after the death of the last of the anointed ones in the first group—that is, after those who witnessed the “beginning of pangs of distress” in 1914—would not be part of “this generation.”—Matt. 24:8.

Of course, my father knows I have taken a different approach on matters related to chronology, but he still believes as most Witnesses do about 1914. As you know, I'm happy with the fact that Jesus is invisibly present and that he is now King of his Kingdom, and that we are in the last days, and that Jehovah and Jesus are building up a Christian congregation as a Witness for God's name, and who represent Jehovah's view of matters in a dying world, and who take responsibility to preach the good news while there is yet time. I believe that we do the best at imitating the first century congregations to the extent possible in the twenty-first century.

So to me, it makes little difference in today's congregational setting whether some think that all of these things only became relevant after 1914. We are where we are today, and it's the same for me as it is for my fellow brothers and sisters. There is no quarrel about it.

But that doesn't change my opinion. I think that we should stop embarrassing ourselves about these matters. It's one thing to believe that 1914 is right because a war started that year and a bad earthquake hit in 1906 (San Fran, CA) and then 1920 (China), and a pandemic hit in 1918. These are all close enough to make people wonder, and sincere people can't help but wonder about whether these fulfill prophecies.

So here's that opinion that I apologized for in advance because I thought it might sound too harsh. What is embarrassing is that any humble child could see through any analogous misuse of language. If you promise a child an ice cream today, and fail to deliver, you can't convince the child that tomorrow is the same as today because tomorrow overlaps with today at midnight. Why not just humbly admit that you thought you could do it today but you made a mistake? Just tell the child that you didn't know, you thought it would happen, you are sorry, and that you will do your best tomorrow. Trying to change the definition of today, so that it includes tomorrow is dishonest.

We have quite simply used a false definition of "generation." This is not honest. It brings shame and reproach on Jehovah's name and on the organization and brotherhood that we love. It is clearly a stretching of the definition beyond what is legitimately possible, and is apparently done so out of presumptuousness and haughtiness, which is always easier than humbly admitting that we just don't know. It is also based on a feeling that rank-and-file Witnesses can't be trusted to keep urgently busy and alert unless someone is reminding them of how close the end might be.

And, last but not least, it may also be a temporary work-around to avoid putting the date 2034 out there as a last possible solution to keep 1914 viable. This has been implied by several Witnesses, including my mother, and probably my father too. If this 2034 thinking is still on the mind of any in the GB, then if the end doesn't come prior to 2034, I don't think anyone in the GB would even begin to consider readjusting the 1914 date until after 2034. There is definitely a danger of 2034 becoming another 1975. What's worse is that increased activity and urgency leading up to 2034 could result in relieving some of the Society's financial difficulties, and therefore be seen as having Jehovah's blessing, creating another vicious cycle of "boom and bust." Just like 1975.

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1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

What's worse is that increased activity and urgency leading up to 2034 could result in relieving some of the Society's financial difficulties, and therefore be seen as having Jehovah's blessing, creating another vicious cycle of "boom and bust."

Maybe the end will not come for 500 years. Maybe the unprecedented chaos that we see should be dismissed as just one of those things.

i have no problem with brothers going with the overlapping generations. I take it as a rough rule of thumb. Most likely the end will come before the generations snap apart in 2034. Even 4Jah thinks his ‘true anointed’ can shake a leg before that.

I sort of like how reading the Drudge Report has been likened to reading the Book of Revelation. Signs accumulate. Maybe more importantly, response to the signs get more life-disruptive. I wrote a post recently of H3N2 and COVID19 being roughly the same. The first took it’s toll of 1-4 million worldwide and life went on. The second has ground all life to a halt in panic over it, and yet still may claim an equal number. Here in NY, the governor forced nursing homes to take in COVID patients, even though they said they weren’t equipped, and the death rate of seniors went through the roof. It is entirely possible that ‘human wisdom’ is taking a bad situation and making it twenty times worse, thus providing ample testimony of how capable humans are to rule the earth.

https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/topic/87327-woodstock-was-held-during-a-pandemic—were-we-crazy-then-or-are-we-crazy-now/

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7 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Maybe the end will not come for 500 years. Maybe the unprecedented chaos that we see should be dismissed as just one of those things.

I think the end could come in the next 2 minutes, before I finish writing this post. And the current chaos would certainly fit the kind of end times we expect. It also shows us just how fast things can go from typically bad to extraordinarily bad. How even the best of intentions can quickly send us to "Hades in a hand-basket." 

But these signs, which we definitely see, are not supposed to be used to support a supposed Bible chronology. The Bible appears to tell us that in Matthew, Mark, Luke and Paul. Whenever any humans have done that, it always has ended in failure, embarrassment, and it brings reproach on those who "go there."

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14 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

How even the best of intentions can quickly send us to "Hades in a hand-basket." 

My Dad stood ever apart from religion, including mine, but he used this expression frequently to describe world conditions. And he didn’t say “hades.”

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