I have barely seen a more stupid chart in my life

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

@Anna  Thank you for a very funny comment.  I do find it funny how you. like many others, accept the 'pigeon holes' which 'the world' creates for people. Reminds me of Arauna with her OCD. But anyway I thought I'd add this scripture from the NWT which shows that even way back then they had depression. Now I wonder how many of those who were depressed, are now anointed ones.

! Thessalonians 5 :14

¹⁴  On the other hand, we urge you, brothers, to warn* the disorderly,q speak consolingly to those who are depressed,* support the weak, be patient toward all

Quote :We would expect elders, such as the GB to be sound in mind. We also expect the faithful slave to be of the anointed.

In truth, you have no proof that the GB are either anointed or the F&DS. You just take their word for it. 

[Srecko Sostar]

On 5/16/2020 at 12:32 AM, Anna said:

This could be the case, but it is difficult to imagine why Jehovah would pick someone who is crazy.

WT publications explained something about similar on "anointed". While they are on earth and imperfect as any other human, they would be able to understand, from heaven, same sort of people they used to be in the past. :))

On 5/16/2020 at 12:32 AM, Anna said:

So put those two together and we could understand why Malefant concluded that we can trust that the GB are of the anointed.

Malenfant sort and model of argumentation was for one purpose only,  to show how exclusively GB is "appointed for sure" and have something to say. Contrary, every other appointed JW member have to be in question and under suspicion about his "call".

[Witness]

On 5/15/2020 at 3:32 PM, Anna said:

Mental illness takes many shapes and forms there is, just to mention a few:

Watchtower 1952 Nov 15 p.703 -  "Being limited by the laws of the worldly nation in which we live and also by the laws of God through Jesus Christ, we can take action against apostates only to a certain extent, that is, consistent with both sets of laws. The law of the land and God's law through Christ forbid us kill apostates, even though they be members of our own flesh-and-blood family relationship. However, God's law requires us to recognize their being disfellowshiped from his congregation, and this despite the fact that the law of the land in which we live requires us under some natural obligation to live with and have dealings with such apostates under the same roof. Satan's influence through the disfellowshiped member of the family will be to cause the other member or members of the family who are in the truth to join the disfellowshiped member in his course or in his position toward God's organization. To do this would be disastrous, and so the faithful family member must recognize and conform to the disfellowship order. How would or could this be done while living under the same roof or in personal, physical contact daily with the disfellowshiped? In this way: By refusing to have religious relationship with the disfellowshiped." 

 

Dear Anna,

Is the above teaching, "new light", or "new" darkness?   I hope you have thoroughly read it.   It is a total, severe turnaround in beliefs concerning disfellowshipping/excommunication, that shows a significant, serious, sign of mental imbalance by WT’s leaders' which occurred within five brief years after the article below was published.  This obvious imbalance affects every JW over the years down to today in only negative ways.   Yet, with one swipe of the tongue any other anointed one, is easily condemned as being "mentally ill". 

Once, as a harrowed mother of three small boys, I wore two different shoes to the meeting.  I can just imagine the rumors that flew about my own "imbalance".  In those days, no one was aware of my anointing, but if they had been, it is very possible that many of my actions would have been interpreted as signs of mental illness. All, because I was striving to be a model wife of an elder, keeping three rambunctious children in line as expected of me by the organization.   The organization itself, can be the catalyst that drives a member to suffer from mental illness.   Its leaders are responsible for fomenting the idea that anointed are most likely mentally ill. 

 

 

 

 

[Space Merchant]

@Anna That is understandable, it is even sad and difficult if the one with said mental depravity is a young person.

It is also safe to say that there are some who are better equipped to handle such, even among church congregants, while some are not as equipped. Among teaching people on how to deal with such ones, this must also be taught. Likewise if a teacher or someone in the medical field can be taught to deal with such an event, why not others.

 

That being said, as for this topic, I guess we are back again with Excommunication, even though the points have been made time and time again.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

 

 I agree with the principle for the Governing Body the same as what Jesus said for the scribes and Pharisees, of his day..

(Matthew 23:2, 3) . . .“The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the seat of Moses. 3 Therefore, all the things they tell you, do and observe, . .

Although I have many points of disagreement with the Governing Body, looking back on my 73 years, half of which were wasted or will be wasted in the natural consequences of self-destructive works, or the consequences thereof, I realize the absolute truth of this scripture.

 

 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

 

 I agree with the principle for the Governing Body the same as what Jesus said for the scribes and Pharisees, of his day..

(Matthew 23:2, 3) . . .“The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the seat of Moses. 3 Therefore, all the things they tell you, do and observe, . .

Although I have many points of disagreement with the Governing Body, looking back on my 73 years, half of which were wasted or will be wasted in the natural consequences of self-destructive works, or the consequences thereof, I realize the absolute truth of this scripture.

 

 

Well one of the things the GB through their 'management' told 'you' as a congregant, was to not report Child Sexual Abuse to the police or outside authorities. 

And another thing it told congregation elders was not to name paedophiles in the congregations and not to tell the whole congregation that there was a paedophile amongst them. 

And you agree with that in principle ?  Doesn't that makes you part of the problem ?

I think to use that scripture as a generalisation is not so good.  

[Witness]

 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, ² saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat.  Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do. 4 For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.  Matt 23:3,4

Jesus is speaking of the law given to Moses, which was was to be observed.   He wasn't referring to the additions made by men - by the Pharisees. The "cumbersome loads" were these additional laws tacked on to the laws given to Moses by God.    

Today, we follow the "law" in Christ - his teachings; not made up laws that the GB are so good at contriving, for the sake of "organization".   The GB do not sit in Moses' seat, although they try so hard to. Christ has fulfilled the law, with his reign superior to that of Moses.  

Reading the entire 23rd chapter of Matthew gives a better view than concentrating on those two scriptures.  

Mark 7:6-9  He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:

‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
7 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’

8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men—the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition.

 

Traditions, necessary to run an organization.  

 

 

[Arauna]

On 4/21/2020 at 2:25 AM, JW Insider said:

This means they were born by or before 1900, baptized by or before 1914, and would be at least 120 years old today if they were part of "This Generation."  

Since not all family lineages started at 1900 (not all are the same age) it means that anyone born in the time of the 1914-generation is still part of the 1914-generation. Anyone that is anointed in the time between 1900 and say 1992 could hence still be part of that 1914-generation because in a generation all are not the same age.

I always had a problem with the old definition of generation because I understand from history that all living at the same time are not the same age.

Abraham was part of the "post-flood" generation.  Why? He was born when Shem was still alive. Between Shem and Abraham there were 427 years. In this time 10 new generations were born and until ALL of them died off after shem died, they were still part of the post- flood generation. So Abraham was of the post-flood generation. 

Noah died 2 years before the birth of Abraham.....he was of the Pre-flood generation. So after Noah died - all those born in his lifetime and who could contact him and could benefit from his wisdom about pre-flood generation stories, was of his generation. Noah he lived to see the beginning of 9 generations of his decendants. These were all part of his generation until they died off after his death.

Shem lived at least until 75 years AFTER abraham entered Canaan.  My numbers could be slightly off......as I did it in haste but this is to illustrate what a generation means.  This is the criteria for a generation. 

When I speak of Russel's generation, i think of the elderly in his generation born in say 1870 and all those born after until Russel died. Those who then died after Russel died and  were born while he was alive is still part of his generation.

A generation could also be a set time by jehovah - as before the flood -120 years.

[JW Insider]

3 hours ago, Arauna said:

Since not all family lineages started at 1900 (not all are the same age) it means that anyone born in the time of the 1914-generation is still part of the 1914-generation.

All I can do is give you my opinion on this, and hope you don't take it too harshly and think it's somehow about you. A lot of us (Witnesses) have been forced into a corner on this one, hoping that we can find a way to express the doctrine in a convincing way. My father is 88, and has been an elder for 50 years and a congregation servant / presiding overseer for another 15 years prior to that. I don't think there was ever a Watchtower doctrine that he didn't try to defend to the very best of his ability. My father said he believed that this new generation theory made sense and he would defend it just as he had defended all the previous generation theories for the past 80-some years. 

But I finally asked him to explain it, and he laughed, and knew immediately that it was not possible. Instead he explained how the brothers were doing the best they can because there has to be an explanation if this system goes beyond 2034. (He believes that 2034 would be the last possible year that the OLD theory about "generation" could still make sense Biblically.) He also bases this idea on the Noah "generation."

My mother took a shot at it, and when she realized that she could not make a sensible rationale to defend the theory, she also ended up saying that it will probably still happen within the time period of 120 years from 1914, but that this "overlapping" explanation was just the closest way to allow for that without actually putting the date 2034 out there. She is one of those who believes, "let the reader use discernment" when reading the Watchtower's last mention of the 120 years before the new "generation" theory was given:

*** w03 12/15 p. 15 pars. 6-7 Our Watchfulness Takes On Greater Urgency ***
In Noah’s day, Jehovah declared: “My spirit shall not act toward man indefinitely in that he is also flesh. Accordingly his days shall amount to a hundred and twenty years.” (Genesis 6:3) The issuance of this divine decree in 2490 B.C.E. marked the beginning of the end for that ungodly world. Just think what that meant for those then living! Only 120 years more and Jehovah would bring “the deluge of waters upon the earth to bring to ruin all flesh in which the force of life is active from under the heavens.”—Genesis 6:17.
7 Noah received the warning of the upcoming catastrophe decades in advance, and he wisely used the time to prepare for survival. “After being given divine warning of things not yet beheld,” says the apostle Paul, “[Noah] showed godly fear and constructed an ark for the saving of his household.” (Hebrews 11:7) What about us? Some 90 years have passed since the last days of this system of things began in 1914. We are certainly in “the time of the end.” (Daniel 12:4) How should we respond to warnings we have been given? “He that does the will of God remains forever,” states the Bible. (1 John 2:17) Now is therefore the time to do Jehovah’s will with a keen sense of urgency.

BTW, my grandmother-in-law just died at 105 on Saturday. She would have been 106 in a couple of months. We had a small memorial service with a family gathering. No Zoom. A cremation was already done. She was not anointed, but was born in 1914 just before the Great War. She survived the Spanish Influenza and apparently would have survived this most recent pale imitation, except that an intestinal blockage got her instead. She lived right up to the end with perfect teeth, perfect hearing, perfect eyesight, and a better memory than most anyone I ever knew. She always joked that she was a freak of nature. But I bring this up because a Witness mentioned the supposed 120 year limit on a human lifespan. And, of course, if she had been anointed, would she have qualified the first group of the overlapping generation to include persons who were born in 2020?

*** kr chap. 1 pp. 11-12 par. 18 “Let Your Kingdom Come” ***
The generation consists of two overlapping groups of anointed ones—the first is made up of anointed ones who saw the beginning of the fulfillment of the sign in 1914 and the second, anointed ones who for a time were contemporaries of the first group. At least some of those in the second group will live to see the beginning of the coming tribulation. The two groups form one generation because their lives as anointed Christians overlapped for a time.

Anyone who was anointed after the death of the last of the anointed ones in the first group—that is, after those who witnessed the “beginning of pangs of distress” in 1914—would not be part of “this generation.”—Matt. 24:8.

Of course, my father knows I have taken a different approach on matters related to chronology, but he still believes as most Witnesses do about 1914. As you know, I'm happy with the fact that Jesus is invisibly present and that he is now King of his Kingdom, and that we are in the last days, and that Jehovah and Jesus are building up a Christian congregation as a Witness for God's name, and who represent Jehovah's view of matters in a dying world, and who take responsibility to preach the good news while there is yet time. I believe that we do the best at imitating the first century congregations to the extent possible in the twenty-first century.

So to me, it makes little difference in today's congregational setting whether some think that all of these things only became relevant after 1914. We are where we are today, and it's the same for me as it is for my fellow brothers and sisters. There is no quarrel about it.

But that doesn't change my opinion. I think that we should stop embarrassing ourselves about these matters. It's one thing to believe that 1914 is right because a war started that year and a bad earthquake hit in 1906 (San Fran, CA) and then 1920 (China), and a pandemic hit in 1918. These are all close enough to make people wonder, and sincere people can't help but wonder about whether these fulfill prophecies.

So here's that opinion that I apologized for in advance because I thought it might sound too harsh. What is embarrassing is that any humble child could see through any analogous misuse of language. If you promise a child an ice cream today, and fail to deliver, you can't convince the child that tomorrow is the same as today because tomorrow overlaps with today at midnight. Why not just humbly admit that you thought you could do it today but you made a mistake? Just tell the child that you didn't know, you thought it would happen, you are sorry, and that you will do your best tomorrow. Trying to change the definition of today, so that it includes tomorrow is dishonest.

We have quite simply used a false definition of "generation." This is not honest. It brings shame and reproach on Jehovah's name and on the organization and brotherhood that we love. It is clearly a stretching of the definition beyond what is legitimately possible, and is apparently done so out of presumptuousness and haughtiness, which is always easier than humbly admitting that we just don't know. It is also based on a feeling that rank-and-file Witnesses can't be trusted to keep urgently busy and alert unless someone is reminding them of how close the end might be.

And, last but not least, it may also be a temporary work-around to avoid putting the date 2034 out there as a last possible solution to keep 1914 viable. This has been implied by several Witnesses, including my mother, and probably my father too. If this 2034 thinking is still on the mind of any in the GB, then if the end doesn't come prior to 2034, I don't think anyone in the GB would even begin to consider readjusting the 1914 date until after 2034. There is definitely a danger of 2034 becoming another 1975. What's worse is that increased activity and urgency leading up to 2034 could result in relieving some of the Society's financial difficulties, and therefore be seen as having Jehovah's blessing, creating another vicious cycle of "boom and bust." Just like 1975.

[TrueTomHarley]

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

What's worse is that increased activity and urgency leading up to 2034 could result in relieving some of the Society's financial difficulties, and therefore be seen as having Jehovah's blessing, creating another vicious cycle of "boom and bust."

Maybe the end will not come for 500 years. Maybe the unprecedented chaos that we see should be dismissed as just one of those things.

i have no problem with brothers going with the overlapping generations. I take it as a rough rule of thumb. Most likely the end will come before the generations snap apart in 2034. Even 4Jah thinks his ‘true anointed’ can shake a leg before that.

I sort of like how reading the Drudge Report has been likened to reading the Book of Revelation. Signs accumulate. Maybe more importantly, response to the signs get more life-disruptive. I wrote a post recently of H3N2 and COVID19 being roughly the same. The first took it’s toll of 1-4 million worldwide and life went on. The second has ground all life to a halt in panic over it, and yet still may claim an equal number. Here in NY, the governor forced nursing homes to take in COVID patients, even though they said they weren’t equipped, and the death rate of seniors went through the roof. It is entirely possible that ‘human wisdom’ is taking a bad situation and making it twenty times worse, thus providing ample testimony of how capable humans are to rule the earth.

https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/topic/87327-woodstock-was-held-during-a-pandemic—were-we-crazy-then-or-are-we-crazy-now/

[JW Insider]

7 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Maybe the end will not come for 500 years. Maybe the unprecedented chaos that we see should be dismissed as just one of those things.

I think the end could come in the next 2 minutes, before I finish writing this post. And the current chaos would certainly fit the kind of end times we expect. It also shows us just how fast things can go from typically bad to extraordinarily bad. How even the best of intentions can quickly send us to "Hades in a hand-basket." 

But these signs, which we definitely see, are not supposed to be used to support a supposed Bible chronology. The Bible appears to tell us that in Matthew, Mark, Luke and Paul. Whenever any humans have done that, it always has ended in failure, embarrassment, and it brings reproach on those who "go there."

[TrueTomHarley]

14 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

How even the best of intentions can quickly send us to "Hades in a hand-basket." 

My Dad stood ever apart from religion, including mine, but he used this expression frequently to describe world conditions. And he didn’t say “hades.”