I have barely seen a more stupid chart in my life

[JW Insider]

12 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

No. But it probably is the same author.

I don't recall that particular context. But I didn't include all the quotes from Wohl either. Also, if it were Wohl, he didn't say it until 1980.

I noticed that there were several interesting quotes about the "industrial age" and "industrial revolution" that could be implied to fit what you (and Wohl) are saying, but I didn't see the one in the place where you saw it.

This reminds me of another thing the Society said about the "generation." It's definitely not the quote you are looking for, but it reminded me about the kind of generation that Arauna mentioned:

*** g88 4/8 pp. 13-14 The Last Days—What’s Next? ***
How Long Can a Generation Last?
The American Legion Magazine pointed out that 4,743,826 U.S. men and women had participated in World War I. But in 1984 only 272,000 remained alive, and they were dying off at an average of nine every hour. Does that mean, then, that the generation of 1914 has already disappeared?
The Greek word for generation is geneá, used by Matthew, Mark, and Luke in their accounts of Jesus’ words. It can have different applications according to the context. However, The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology defines it as: “Those born at the same time . . . Associated with this is the meaning: the body of one’s contemporaries, an age.” A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament states: “The sum total of those born at the same time, expanded to include all those living at a given time generation, contemporaries.” These definitions allow for all those who were born around the time of a historic event and all those who were alive at that time.
J. A. Bengel states in his New Testament Word Studies: “The Hebrews . . . reckon seventy-five years as one generation, and the words, shall not pass away, intimate that the greater part of that generation [of Jesus’ day] indeed, but not the whole of it, should have passed away before all should be fulfilled.” This became true by the year 70 C.E. when Jerusalem was destroyed.
Likewise today, most of the generation of 1914 has passed away. However, there are still millions on earth who were born in that year or prior to it. And although their numbers are dwindling, Jesus’ words will come true, “this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.” This is yet another reason for believing that Jehovah’s thieflike day is imminent. So, what events should alert Christians watch for?. . . “Peace and Security” . . .

For anyone who wants to do the math puzzle, there must have already been just about no one left from this number of persons still surviving who had participated in WWI. (Assuming there were 272,000 dying at 9 per hour since 1984.) That was near the end of 1984, because although it doesn't say, the American Legion article is from their December 1984 issue. So since there are 24 hours a day for 365.25 days every year, multiplying by 9, and carrying the 1, there would be 78,894 dying every year and, therefore, they would all be gone by April 15, 1988. And this article came out in the April 8, 1988 issue!  And it was in March 1988 that the Awake! magazine had just begun adding the following to the inside masthead about "the Creator's promise of a peaceful and secure new world before the generation that saw the events of 1914 passes away." (That statement was in every issue for the next 7 and one-half years.)

And, of course, it was just a few months later when the January 1, 1989 Watchtower indicated that Armageddon would be here by the year 2000. Someone caught that mistake in just enough time to remove it from the bound volume and the Watchtower Library CD.

Of course, people don't really die off at constant rates like that (9 per hour), but I get the impression that someone was watching those numbers from that American Legion article a little too closely, perhaps from the time it came out. It's like you joked about before, about waiting for the last person to die off. (At least, I hope you were joking!)

In fact, in the article above, it was the first time that the number 75 had been used for the "Hebrew" length of a generation, based on something this scholar named Bengel had said. And the scholar was actually referring to the highly discredited Seder Olam. And, of course, the Seder Olam doesn't say anything about a generation being 75 years. In the Seder Olam, except for the longer generations before the Flood, it would have been a closer match to the 490 years as being only 14 generations, per Matthew. That's 490 divided by 14 which is 35 years for each generation. The reason that Bengel wanted it to be 75 was because of his theory that the generation could therefore include not just the 40 years from Jesus' prophecy in 30 CE to 70 CE, but it was a generation that could have started when Jesus was born (which he assumed was about 5 BCE).

Also, Bengel was only interested in 70 CE, but the real reason for the 75 years in the Awake! was the point about persons born in 1914 or the year prior, as it says. 1914 + 75, is 1989, and for the year prior 1913 + 75 is 1988. So this was cutting it pretty close. And according to the American Legion magazine, the last surviving soldier from WWI would be dead in just a couple weeks.

  

[Arauna]

 

The term generation  can also be used as a measure of time with reference to past or future ages. An age which is identified by certain features. 

That is why I demonstrated the above definition with the pre-flood generation / age and its impact; also the post-flood generation/ age which also consisted of a very long period..

Today they are still commemorating events of WW2 which is an event which is still part of the age starting with WW1 because it is identified by world-wars.

However,  those people who saw these 'massive signs' and lived in the aftermath of any of these wars may soon start dying. Many are in their sixties or older. I am a post-ww2 baby which understands the impact of the war due to listening to the many stories my grandfather and father told me (both were in the war).. 

Most of the young generations less than 30 years have no clue. I personally always understand history in the context of the age........ because people are ALWAYS impacted by what happens in their age.

Russel was influenced by pyramids because he was living an age that was obsessed with the orient.... because of all the discoveries in the news of artifacts in the middle east. Archeology was a fledgling science and the great mysteries were continuously revealed. It even gave rise to a new religion called Mormonism. So people do get distracted by what is happening in the world and its propaganda.

This is why I always caution on this forum that one cannot just Google information about an era and think you understand the mindset and full implications of the era. An era can have many features which define it. Even short periods have many features i.e. the roaring twenties was short-cut by the depression but some of its ideas still lived on in those who were part of it.

The generation that was impacted by the first and second world wars are now getting on in life...... we know the stories and the oral traditions...... The millenials, frankly do not care. They are impacted by what happened in the sixties - the loss of morals and experimentation with drugs, and the new philosophies that were brewing in the Frankfort school etc.

 

[TrueTomHarley]

9 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Someone caught that mistake in just enough time to remove it from the bound volume and the Watchtower Library CD.

I wrote a post long ago about how they had modified a certain phrase in a Revelation book update: “Some scientists believe that nuclear war might destroy all life on earth within 25 years.”

The reason they had done that is because Vic Vomodog had marked off the time on his calendar and he was hoping, praying, pleading that there would be no worldwide nuclear war within 25 years so that he could crow over how they had been wrong again. (after 25 years was okay) 

I said then I thought taking the quote out was a mistake. Who would be left with egg on their faces if 25 years passed? “Some scientists.” What great debt to we owe to “some scientists” that we should cover for them? They urinate all over Genesis. Why should we bail them out?

Quote

 

[JW Insider]

14 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I said then I thought taking the quote out was a mistake. Who would be left with egg on their faces if 25 years passed? “Some scientists.” What great debt to we owe to “some scientists” that we should cover for them?

True. And that Revelation book was written at the same time as the 1989 article when a lot of these "hints" of world disaster from outsiders were highly prized. I think that change you mentioned was made around 2006. But it reminds me that the Society put out a new edition of the "Truth" book in 1981 even though we never did much with it. The time for the original "Truth" book (1968) had already passed, and this update was well nigh ignored compared to the original. And the edits were all focused on getting rid of the quotes from scientists or authors who had directly or indirectly pointed to 1975. (But replacing them with just enough space to replace only those parts so that most of the pages could be reprinted without redoing the pagination of whole book.)

So it's a matter of just how many selective quotes were selected from those "some scientists."  After a while the purpose of those quotes tells more about the selector than the scientists, especially because we could have found just as many or more who believed that science would resolve life-threatening problems.

Back when we believed it was important to remind people that man had been on the earth for 6,000 years, the publications even looked for quotes that dropped that hint, and then italics might even be added to make sure readers noticed the reference to "6,000 years." Here's one from 1975:

*** g75 8/22 p. 20 Is the Industrial Way of Life a Failure? ***
Psychoanalyst Erich Fromm declares that the current sicknesses of industrial society can be dealt with “only if the whole system as it has existed during the last 6000 years of history can be replaced by a fundamentally different one.” [Italics ours]

Fromm saw no particular significance in the number 6,000. But we certainly did.

It's a little bit like the way the Watch Tower publications used J.A.Bengel, above, completely out of context on his point about the Hebrews believing a generation was 75 years. First of all the statement was completely false. And his context was only that it fit the time from Jesus' birth to the year 70. If you read the entire reference, you can see that it's just as much about how Jesus' words would fit the period of 40 years from the year 30 to the year 70. And that it would fit the 75 year idea, too.

The idea of 75 years, supposedly found in the Seder Olam, was not there in the original Seder Olam (Rabbah) from the year 169 CE. It's not even in the most expanded version of the Seder Olam (Zutta) from 804 CE. (I took the picture from his 1862 version of his work on New Testament words. The 1877 version had changed Hebrews to Jews, but still contained false information about the supposed 75 years:

The footnote (2) in the above is not about the 75 years but about how in the 40 years leading up to Jerusalem's destruction in 70, that there were earthquakes and famines and pestilence and war, just as Jesus had predicted.

I point this out because it shows how easy it is to start selecting specialists and scholars (even if one needs to go back to 1862) to find a "fact" that isn't even a "fact" to support chronology. It seems important to me, because of the potential for doing this all over again with 2034 or the "devil in the details" behind Splane's chart.

[TrueTomHarley]

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

It seems important to me, because of the potential for doing this all over again with 2034 or the "devil in the details" behind Splane's chart.

“Some scientists” may be working on it right now.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

Quote @JW Insider It's a little bit like the way the Watch Tower publications used J.A.Bengel, above, completely out of context on his point about the Hebrews believing a generation was 75 years. First of all the statement was completely false. 

Are you here giving us another example of how the Watchtower leaders were dishonest ?

 

[TrueTomHarley]

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

So it's a matter of just how many selective quotes were selected from those "some scientists."  After a while the purpose of those quotes tells more about the selector than the scientists

This is always the case in any paper about anything. Everyone selects point of support. Nobody selects points that undermine their premise. I see no reason to spin it as though it were some sort of conspiracy. There is scarcely anyone who does not do it.

”And when they persecute you in one town, see if you can find out what you are doing wrong so as to get them so riled up.” I don’t think so.

”And when you see the sun and the moon and the stars acting up, say, ‘There’s probably nothing to it.’”  No.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

Quote TTH 

This is always the case in any paper about anything. Everyone selects point of support. Nobody selects points that undermine their premise. I see no reason to spin it as though it were some sort of conspiracy. There is scarcely anyone who does not do it.

BUT the CCJW & W/t,  say they are NO PART OF THE WORLD.  That is supposed to be the BIG difference. 

Tom is just showing that they are really no different to any other religion or organisation in this world.. 

[JW Insider]

5 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Are you here giving us another example of how the Watchtower leaders were dishonest ?

These examples, like most mistakes involving chronology, just show how easy it is to be mistaken. Our desire to believe something affects how careful we are about the evidence. I'm sure the person who found Bengel quote this was very excited about how it proves we were right all along about the old generation theory.

But that theory was finally dropped, although the danger is still there to let it happen again. I'm certainly not saying I have not been fooled, more often than I'd like to admit. But I'm trying to be much more careful about things now. The WTS has not been wrong very often on most other topics, but chronology is one of those things that we still carry on from traditions that go back nearly 150 years now. I doubt they will get fixed all at once.

[JW Insider]

5 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Everyone selects point of support. Nobody selects points that undermine their premise. I see no reason to spin it as though it were some sort of conspiracy.

No conspiracy here. It's about how we often we tend to throw carefulness out the window when things look like they are going "according to plan." If someone is really serious about a teaching or premise, however, they are definitely going to look for points that undermine the premise. The best essays, non-fiction books, lectures and presentations will present a premise, deal with the points that undermine the premise, deal with the points in favor, and then discuss how or why the various arguments should be weighted in favor of the presented premise.

Volume 2 from B.W.Schulz deals with some WT issues just like this and discusses ways in which such mistakes are not conspiratorial, but have been driven from a belief system that didn't double-check itself. As the writers said, it's often just a matter of carefulness with the "facts." They didn't usually concern themselves with the reasons.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

It's a little bit like the way the Watch Tower publications used J.A.Bengel, above, completely out of context on his point about the Hebrews believing a generation was 75 years. First of all the statement was completely false. And his context was only that it fit the time from Jesus' birth to the year 70. If you read the entire reference, you can see that it's just as much about how Jesus' words would fit the period of 40 years from the year 30 to the year 70. And that it would fit the 75 year idea, too.

@JW Insider  This is what you wrote. So, you seem to be saying that the W/t took it completely out of context, and that the statement was completely false. Is my assumption correct ?

Now the Organisation / Watchtower / CCJW / GB are supposed to be 'spirit directed' is this correct ?

If you add what TTH said to what you said then I cannot see any direction of Holy Spirit at all. 

You and Tom really do seem to forget that you are talking about, what is supposed to be the Faithful and Discreet Slave, giving the proper food at the right time.

This organisation you belong to is supposed to be the 'one and only Truth', but it is full of un-truth as you keep telling us all so clearly. 

Another quote "but chronology is one of those things that we still carry on from traditions that go back nearly 150 years now. "

Traditions of men ?   Wasn't that a fault of the Jewish religious leaders ? 

[Arauna]

13 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

say they are NO PART OF THE WORLD.  That is supposed to be the BI

Especially if you have the self-appointed 'super righteous' to police their every move.  Remember how the pharisees policed jesus's every move to find fault....... and they did....... despite his perfection. How much easier with more imperfect mortals.