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Kosonen

My latest letter to WT demanding correction from their side

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Brothers and Sisters associated with the Watchtower society            May 9, 2020

 

I have tried to inform you of the necessary adjustments you ought to take in order to truly be in the truth. But my efforts have remained fruitless. You well know the biblical procedure. Before punishing, God sends his messengers to expose the fault. And if the advice is ignored, then there is left only one option, a punishment. A very illustrative example was Pharaoh. God brought upon him 10 plagues. The first plagues were not so severe. But as Pharaoh did not change God had to bring upon him even more hard-hitting plagues. 

 

It was a shock that the Russian government confiscated all that belonged of the WT. Why would Jehovah God allow that to happen? Could it be because the WT society is ignoring the advice from God's word, that is presented to it from messengers like me?

 

Could this Corona-virus be a plague from God? Like some of the plagues God brought upon Egypt, that also affected his people the Israelites? 

I want you to reflect on the fact that the Corona-virus has caused that meetings at Kingdom halls have been canceled. And 2020 physical conventions have been canceled. And the public ministry by door-to-door witnessing has been canceled. 

 

I must warn you that more plagues are to come upon you, until you start to listen and act according to the advice I and other messengers give you from God word. My intention is now to write to you after every new plague that will come upon the WT society from Jehovah God through Jesus Christ, the head of the congregation and remind you of the changes you need to take to really be in the truth. God brought upon Egypt 10 plagues before Pharaoh stopped to resist God's will. So that is an example for you.

 

Here below I will provide you a list of untrue teachings and practises the WT society must correct in order to please Jehovah God.

 

  1. You have to stop teaching that for Jehovah God his own sanctification is the most important thing. Because that implies that Jehovah God would be a self-centered, narcissistic God. Instead Jehovah God is first and foremost motivated by love for his creation. Thus He is not primarily motivated by a his own sanctification. Instead it is we humans who should respond to God's love by being first of all motivated by a desire to sanctify God. (John 3:16; 1 John 4:8)

  2. You have to stop denigrating Jesus' sufferings and love for humans and mankind. The WT society teaches that Jesus' agony before his trial was because his death would bring reproach on Jehovah. Because he would be killed as a criminal besides two criminals. No, that is false. Jesus was in agony because the knew how much physical pain he would have to feel. Having a true understanding of this allows one to feel pity for Jesus and to fully appreciate the sacrifice he did for mankind out of love for us. Jesus was not worried about the disgrace his death on a torture stake would cause, to the contrary it was a cause of glory for him and for Jehovah God. (John 12:23; John 13:31-33; Hebrews 12:2)

  3. You have to stop denigrating Jesus' brothers, the anointed among the congregations. They are the firstfruits and they are Jesus' brothers (James 1:8; Revelation 14:4; Matthew 25:31-46)

  4. You have to stop teaching false teachings about: 1914, 1260, 1290, 1335, 2300 days, when Satan was thrown down to earth, the seven headed beast in Revelation 13, the image of the beast, the mark of the beast, the woman and her flight in Revelation 12, who is Babylon the Great, the generation, the disgusting thing causing desolation, the king of the north, the fierce-looking king, the horn that has eyes and a mouth, Daniel 11:29-45, Armageddon, the time of the earthly resurrection, Elijah in the end time, who is the discreet and faithful slave, women's role in the congregation and what is prescribed and what is not allowed them, who is the man of lawlessness, Israel's status in the end time, the meaning of the overseer should be husband of one wife. (1 Timothy 3:2; Titus 1:6; Mark 10:11,12)

  5. You have to stop going to court against individuals or organizations etc on copyright issues. (1 Corinthians 6:1-8)

  6. You have to stop disfellowshipping brothers and sisters based on not agreeing with the WT organization's false teachings.

  7. You must reinstate all brothers and sisters that have been disfellowshipped on false grounds and give a sincere apology and somehow make up for the wrong committed against them. 

  8. And when someone is reproved or disfellowshipped, the committed sin must be made known to the congregation. (1 Timothy 5:20; Matthew 3:5; Mark 1:5; James 5:16; 1 Corinthians 5:1)

  9. You have to understand and believe and teach about the flight the woman in Revelation 12 is to undertake.

  10. You have to understand and believe and teach that Ezekiel 38 speaks about a literal place where God's people will be gathered and live in security literally and that Gog from Magog together with his armies will come to plunder God's people's literal cattle, gold, silver and property and that it will consist of a literal great wealth. 

 

Please, receive this call for correction and repentance and act accordingly. But if not, be sure God will have to cause trouble until his congregation as an entity has repented and turned around. God's word foretells troubles ahead for God's people, in order to cause a change to the better:

 

Daniel 8:11  It exalted itself even against the Prince of the army, and from him the constant feature was taken away, and the established place of his sanctuary was thrown down. 12  And an army was given over, together with the constant feature, because of transgression; and it kept throwing truth to the earth, and it acted and had success. 13  And I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to the one speaking: “How long will the vision of the constant feature and of the transgression causing desolation continue, to make both the holy place and the army things to trample on?” 14  So he said to me: “Until 2,300 evenings and mornings; and the holy place will certainly be restored to its right condition.”

 

Daniel 11:35  And some of those having insight will be made to stumble, in order to do a refining work because of them and to do a cleansing and a whitening until the time of the end; because it is yet for the time appointed.

 

Your brother Jan Kosonen







 

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1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

 

 

Whether your points are valid, or not, they are incapable of changing, for two reasons:

 

I believe Jehovah God will bring on them more troubles. The liquadition of WT in Russia was a heavy blow and now the restrictions because of Covid. I am just curious what will hit the WT next?

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6 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Whether your points are valid, or not,

It is just the most absurd thing, the way it is phrased: “I have tried to inform you of the necessary adjustments you ought to take in order to truly be in the truth.”

It is just so pretentious. It is almost as bad as getting an ultimatum from the womanfromthehills of Facebook.

Will they read a letter like that at Bethel? Dunno, but I never would. I might read one or two, but I gather that they receive a steady stream of these from ones who indicate from their very first words that they are unhinged.

I can deal with loopy. And I can deal with self-important.  But someone who is loopy AND self-important....well, I don’t know how to deal with that. Pity the brother they’ve assigned to plow through stuff like this, but it just may be that nobody is assigned.

I mean, can’t you just see this fellow rebuking Peter in the first century for blaming everything on that roaring lion the Devil, and telling him how if he doesn’t get his act together, there will be even further persecution?

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3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Will they read a letter like that at Bethel? Dunno, but I never would. I might read one or two, but I gather that they receive a steady stream of these from ones who indicate from their very first words that they are unhinged.

Perhaps same treatment and attitude was used by Kremlin about JW letters ? 

 

... I gather that they receive a steady stream of these from ones who indicate from their very first words that they are unhinged.

 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 1 Cor 1 21

What if Jan Kosonen's "foolishness" is wisdom of God?

 

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8 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Will they read a letter like that at Bethel?

It looks like they have read my letters becuse they try hard to convince the JWs that their teachings are true and that JWs should not allow themselves to be mislead by such as me. You can read the latest July 2020 study edition and find indications of that. And also May 2020 edition about Daniel 11 about the King of the North. I have clearly presented them facts that point to USA, especially when Donald Trump is president. But they insist that the King of the North is Russia. I really hope when they will be studing this article it will be evident that it is USA and not Russia.

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5 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Some of his points were very good, and very important.

Perhaps they were, but there is such a thing as being clueless as to human relations. You don’t just show up on someone’s doorstep and start demanding things, taking for granted that your authority and wisdom is recognized by all, when you are in reality a complete stranger and nobody knows you from Adam. Any time an actual brother tries that on an actual doorstep he gets his head handed to him, as he should, for being so self-important.

I wrote my previous comment last night, and I would have taken it down this morning had it not been replied to. I began to think that he is unwell and, that being the case, it was not very sporting of me to retort as I did.

Look up from your egg breakfast, James, courtesy of you multitudinous chickens. My limo has just pulled up and I am on your doorstep to tell you everything that is wrong with you and how you must shape up if you would hope for God’s tolerance. It goes without saying that I know everything and you know nothing. Black is how I like my coffee.

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And Tom says I'm a crackpot. When i read that letter I thought it was a joke. 

I agree that the CCJW needs to make lots of changes if God is to use it, but that letter is like starting 20 topics in one. 

Tom, 8½ more years to go, and the CCJW will need it if it is to be Cleansed and used by God. 

James you seem to have the same thought that Tom has about the GB. 'They cannot be fired' 

Matthew 19 v 26 

Looking at them intently, Jesus said to them: “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

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TTH: You are naive ... or perhaps just less scarred than I am ...but you are not delusional.

I read everything you write here, and have for years, and I remember ideas and principles like a steel trap.

(Where I put my shoes ... not so much ....)

On this forum, in the last 5 years, you did not say that which was attributed to you.

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3 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

James you seem to have the same thought that Tom has about the GB. 'They cannot be fired' 

And 4J:

It is I who have said that perhaps six times on this forum .... not TTH.

You appear to not be a "detail oriented person".

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If I could be bothered I'm sure I could find it, but there is no point. 

If I remember rightly TTH said 'No one can disfellowship them' referring to the Governing Body.

But no matter, you JWs are all alike :) anyway. (And yes that is a reference to something TTH says)

 

 

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10 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

for granted that your authority and wisdom is recognized

True. By what authority does Kosonen think he can warn that the Corona is punishment from God on JWs?  It is absolutely absurd. 

There are no good or logical points to consider......apologies to Mr Rook. Sorry lads,  I think we will see more and more of this as the love of many will cool down (one of the signs of the last of the last days). 

There is still time to repent. 

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"Pointless..." "absurd...bad...pretentious..." "loopy and self-important..." "like opening a door with two broken hinges..." "What if a frog had wings and could fly...some strong personal opinions with no basis in fact." 

On 5/10/2020 at 8:48 AM, 4Jah2me said:

And Tom says I'm a crackpot. When i read that letter I thought it was a joke. 

Apparently 4Jah2me is not alone in that observation. Frankly I thought the same myself. 

Even when there are some points that might merit consideration, I can't imagine how many of these crank letters are sent to the society expecting to be taken seriously. 

A negative agenda is often accompanied by a myopic view. A view coloured by biased lenses - seeing only from the perspective that fits their agenda. It's not uncommon. That is why people who have a falling out may dismiss a whole decades-long friendship/marriage on one fault - while not considering all the good or the broader picture.  While it is true that Jehovah has disciplined his people in the past and may yet find reason to do so (or at least see to corrections that may need to be made today), the problems JWs experience as an organization are far better explained in terms of what the Bible clearly sets out and tells true Christians to expect. In fact, while reading just a few of the many verses in the Bible, the question could also be asked: Who of our opposers are themselves experiencing the persecution and hatred from the world true Christians are to expect? Again, rather than "discipline from Jehovah," these things are expected/prophesied to happen to true Christians living within the boundaries of Satan's system. 

1 John 5:19: "We know that we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one."

Rev. 12:12, 13: "...Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time. Now when the dragon saw that it had been hurled down to the earth, it persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child."

John 15:20: "Keep in mind the word I said to you: A slave is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you."

2 Tim. 3:12: "In fact, all those desiring to live with godly devotion in association with Christ Jesus will also be persecuted. (13) But wicked men and impostors will advance from bad to worse, misleading and being misled. (14) You, however, continue in the things that you learned and were persuaded to believe, knowing from whom you learned them..."

Matt. 5:11: "Happy are you when people reproach you and persecute you and lyingly say every sort of wicked thing against your for myself sake..."

Luke 21:12: "But before all these things happen, people will lay their hands on you and persecute you, handing you over to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and governors for the sake of my name. (13) It will result in your giving a witness." 

Matt. 24:9: "Then people will hand you over to tribulation and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations on account of my name. (10) Then, too, many will be stumbled and will betray one another and will hate one another. (11) Many false prophets will arise and mislead many..."

We all know why JW's are banned and persecuted in Russia and elsewhere. (Hint: it's not because they disagree with you and your personal interpretation). In fact, we know that the Russian "case" was built on outright lies and political corruption with a religious influence. Similar could be said with other persecution you prefer to see as discipline. So here's a suggestion: Why don't all you opposers fight it out between yourselves first, and then present one winner - one Goliath - instead of all the moving targets you usually present. We shouldn't have to fight all your battles and do your thinking for you. That way we don't have to "hopscotch" from one personal/conflicting opinion to another like some crazed "jack-in-the-box." Sure, you may be united in your opposition to JW's, but at least get your stories straight. You guys don't even agree amongst yourselves. 

 

 

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Jan Kosonen, @Kosonen

In several places online, you have seen fit to provide your name, your email address, and much of your personal history. But you have also provided an "audit trail" of failed time-based interpretations and predictions. I began to point this out before and you do not appear back away from this history. Instead you continue to present yourself as an anointed person who actually wants to be seen as a modern day prophet.

I began to write a paraphrase of your letter as I think it will have been understood by any responsible person who reads it at the headquarters of the CCJW/WTS. But that started looking like an exercise in parody. And I didn't want you to think I was just trying to make fun of you. I do think you will be seen as one of hundreds of mentally disturbed and imbalanced persons who has associated with Jehovah's Witnesses. I know another person very well who left Bethel in good mental health, but within a few years began to suffer greatly, and began to consider a lot of conspiracies and speculations about various "end-times" scenarios. I see several similarities. I don't wish to spell out these many similarities, but I do feel badly that he doesn't attempt to get the mental health care that he desperately needs. I am not sure if you have sought mental health professionals yourself. I hope that you have.

In addition, I hope you have also prayed for the kind of spiritual guidance that can help us maintain mental balance. I know that you consider yourself one of the anointed, and are therefore very familiar with the following verses:

(Romans 8:26, 27) 26 In like manner, the spirit also joins in with help for our weakness; for the problem is that we do not know what we should pray for as we need to, but the spirit itself pleads for us with unuttered groanings. 27 But the one who searches the hearts knows what the meaning of the spirit is, because it is pleading in harmony with God for the holy ones.

(1 Corinthians 10:12, 13) . . .Consequently let him that thinks he is standing beware that he does not fall. 13 No temptation has taken YOU except what is common to men. But God is faithful, and he will not let YOU be tempted beyond what YOU can bear, but along with the temptation he will also make the way out in order for YOU to be able to endure it.

You show a lot of bravery and boldness in sending your letters as you have. But you also display a lot of haughtiness in a way that makes me think you are likely not always aware of how you come across to other people. This is a common theme among certain kinds of mental health issues. In cases like this, the sound of the haughtiness might sound to you like the necessary boldness to speak as an anointed prophet might. But if one truly has the "spirit" they would understand the need to pray for the ability to put themselves in the place of the other person, the ones you wish to speak to.

(Philippians 2:1-4) . . .If, then, there is any encouragement in Christ, if any consolation of love, if any spiritual fellowship, if any tender affection and compassion, 2 make my joy full by being of the same mind and having the same love, being completely united, having the one thought in mind. 3 Do nothing out of contentiousness or out of egotism, but with humility consider others superior to you, 4 as you look out not only for your own interests, but also for the interests of others.

(1 Corinthians 10:23, 24) . . .All things are lawful; but not all things are advantageous. All things are lawful; but not all things build up. 24 Let each one keep seeking, not his own [advantage], but that of the other person.

I would hope you are brave and bold enough to allow persons you trust to speak openly to you about this possible health problem. Have you honestly asked anyone if they believe you might have mental health issues? Sometimes, what we won't see for ourselves is clear to others. Paul spoke to Timothy about men whose folly was very plain to all.

(2 Timothy 3:9, 10) . . .Nevertheless, they will make no further progress, for their folly will be very plain to all, as it was with those two men. 10 But you have closely followed my teaching, my course of life, my purpose, my faith, my patience, my love, my endurance,

So, I'll ask you more directly: Do you think that you might have mental health issues?

I hope that you have persons you trust to ask this question about yourself.  If any of us ask enough people around us, I don't think any of us would get a perfect score on this account. But if there is any question at all in the minds of others then it's a very important point to consider, and look into more closely. And I can tell you right now that this question about you is already in the minds of several of us here.

(Philippians 4:5-7) 5 Let your reasonableness become known to all men. The Lord is near. 6 Do not be anxious over anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication along with thanksgiving, let your petitions be made known to God; 7 and the peace of God that surpasses all understanding will guard your hearts and your mental powers by means of Christ Jesus.

I'll be happy to engage the specifics of the points you made, but I do hope you will respond to these points, too.

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8 hours ago, JW Insider said:

So, I'll ask you more directly: Do you think that you might have mental health issues?

My old  Bethel friend told me long ago that about 10% of the letters received would appear to be from persons who are mentally ill.

8 hours ago, JW Insider said:

but I do feel badly that he doesn't attempt to get the mental health care that he desperately needs. I am not sure if you have sought mental health

Homeopaths have much to offer in areas of mental health.

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1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

My old Bethel friend told me long ago that about 10% of the letters received would appear to be from persons who are mentally ill.

I used to spend a lot of time in the office of a brother in Writing (F.R.), the same brother who gave the primary part of my wedding talk. He once gave me a copy of a 10-page letter than came from a person who saw himself as the prophet Ezekiel. Because he had responded to this person before, he said further contact from this same person was sent from Correspondence up to his office. Years later, after Bethel, I heard about a person online, where the name might have been something like "watchman" or "e-watchman" who also seemed to step into this "Ezekiel" role. (For a while I thought it F.R.'s correspondent was same person as "watchman," but I'm pretty sure the timing isn't right.) But it reminds me that there is sometimes an informal tracking for such letters, and Kosonen has elsewhere said he has been sending similar letters for the last 12 or 13 years. Such letters are not taken seriously. And when they are associated with "anointed" persons, they might even be taken less seriously. Kosonen pointed out that Bro Herd gave a talk where he mentioned that it's often the "new" anointed persons who are troublemakers in the congregations.

The issue of mental health, unfortunately, is still touchy. It's not like noticing someone has a limp and asking whether they ever got it checked out. He has referred to his "moody body" in the past and another reference that makes me think that broaching the topic is warranted. I'll probably regret it later, though, because no attempt to diagnose someone should be attempted by non-professionals (me) or from things written online. But Kosonen has left about 12 years worth of material in his audit trail, from an old website (spiritualanswers) to paradisecafe to jehovahs-witness to here, along with a set of youtube videos and links he has liked. He has promoted videos and content from Alex Jones, and others of similar ilk. One could easily get lost in the web of end-time prophecy links (sites/videos/forums) that Kosonen has associated himself with.

But when I look closely at his points, there are a few of them that several people here would quickly agree with, including Witnesses, non-Witnesses, and ex-Witnesses. But many of his points have gone off into complete fantasy, too, imo. Mixing those issues together will lose any audience even where good points are made. I think the letter reveals a lot more about himself than he realizes he is revealing. And what we say on the www, will stay on the www.

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27 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

I'll probably regret it later, though, because no attempt to diagnose someone should be attempted by non-professionals (me) or from things written online. 

Maybe that is why I have passed over the mental health angle a time or two to simply say, “Am I on Candid Camera?”  But it is an old show. Youngsters will have no idea what I am talking about.

31 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

And what we say on the www, will stay on the www.

Right. Mum’s the word.

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@b4ucuhear  The reason I thought the letter was a joke or joke like was because it included so many points. 

Some of the points were valid of course but I would think three points would be plenty if he wanted them to take it seriously. 

However, you seem to have joined forces with others on here that think that all people that mention the bad points of CCJW should join together as one. You also seem to have dropped yourself into the trap of calling many people opposers, though whom you refer to in that way i don't know, but you do seem to group them together. Quote :- 

Why don't all you opposers fight it out between yourselves first, and then present one winner - one Goliath - instead of all the moving targets you usually present. We shouldn't have to fight all your battles and do your thinking for you. That way we don't have to "hopscotch" from one personal/conflicting opinion to another like some crazed "jack-in-the-box." Sure, you may be united in your opposition to JW's, but at least get your stories straight. You guys don't even agree amongst yourselves. 

So some questions to you and others. Who do you class as opposers ? Why do you think those 'opposers' should be united as one ? Exactly who are they opposed to ? Do you really think they are all opposed for the same reason ? 

Might even make a good new topic.

@JW Insider  you first paragraph seems to fit the GB very well and I quote :-

you have also provided an "audit trail" of failed time-based interpretations and predictions. you continue to present yourself as an anointed person who actually wants to be seen as a modern day prophet. 

And Para 2 :  I do think you will be seen as one of hundreds of mentally disturbed and imbalanced persons who has associated with Jehovah's Witnesses. 

Now that fits the GB perfectly. I remember a certain person saying how 'dangerous and perverted' the GB appear to be. 

In truth though I think it is sad that you've brought this idea of being mentally unstable into the equation. I know this is a ploy of the GB to say that some people are mentally disturbed, but I think it is wrong to put such a label directly on someone.  

 Another quote from another JW on here : My old  Bethel friend told me long ago that about 10% of the letters received would appear to be from persons who are mentally ill.

A clever way of easily discarding letters that may have probably spoken truth. Just say the letter was from a mentally ill person, then bin it. 

The excuses from the CCJW Co increase. All people that do not worship the Governing Body and do not obey without question, must be either, Apostate, Opposer or / and Mentally ill. 

But what must be remembered is that we are all imperfect, so none of us are mentally well balanced. 

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6 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

 

@JW Insider  you first paragraph seems to fit the GB very well and I quote :-

you have also provided an "audit trail" of failed time-based interpretations and predictions. you continue to present yourself as an anointed person who actually wants to be seen as a modern day prophet. 

Hmm. I fell right into that one. But, of course, I agree that it very easily happens to anyone who tries to go into the "times and seasons" arena, where even angels fear to tread. If persons take themselves too seriously, they will want to be seen as a prophet, in spite of a string of past failures. It's an interesting phenomenon. And yes, I agree that even Barbour, Russell, Rutherford, Woodworth, FWFranz, etc continued to believe in "times and seasons" that were the result of a string of failures. No need to repeat it all here.

However, in favor of the Governing Body, I would say that they stopped trying to represent themselves as a "prophet." The last time I saw that phrase directly tied to the representatives of "the faithful and discreet slave" was back in 1971 and 1972, and this was undoubtedly part of FWFranz' promotion of his 1975 expectations.

I have seen much more careful language around dates and a complete lack of predictions among this particular group of men making up the Governing Body. Dates are rarely emphasized at all compared to the 1975 era.

6 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

In truth though I think it is sad that you've brought this idea of being mentally unstable into the equation. I know this is a ploy of the GB to say that some people are mentally disturbed, but I think it is wrong to put such a label directly on someone.

I think it's a valid concern, for himself and those close to him. I don't think that anyone here has begun looking to the constellation Virgo and a few stray planets for the sign of the woman in Revelation 12, and I don't think anyone is seriously considering taking airplanes to Australia to ride out whatever plagues are left in God's quiver. But he is showing signs that should make all of us feel concern for him, and a desire to help him. This does not mean that the rest of us are all that mentally balanced ourselves. But I think we should all be sensitive to how certain phrases and ideas might reveal problems that might need to be dealt with.

This might even be the same reason that the GB brings it up. To try to make sure people are aware of mental issues and how they sometimes reveal themselves. And, I think we all know from experience that there really is a correlation between those who claim to be of the anointed (in some congregations) and those in need of mental health assistance. I cringe a bit myself when it is sometimes pointed out just before the Memorial celebration, but this is probably the best time to be reminded, just before your kids or your Bible students decide to go ask Sister Talks-To-Herself-During-Meetings how she knows she is of the anointed.

6 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

All people that do not worship the Governing Body and do not obey without question, must be either, Apostate, Opposer or / and Mentally ill.

There are valid levels of concern about what constitutes "worship" but the Governing Body would likely consider anyone who wants to worship them to be either apostate or mentally ill. It would go against clear counsel by the Governing Body themselves. And the only ones who would obey without question are those who are exaggerating or misinterpreting the Bible's counsel to obey those taking the lead. The GB does not ask people to simply obey without question. Obedience is always in the context of knowing which reminders coming from the GB are repetitions of counsel found in the Bible. Another level of obedience is considered in the context of unknown circumstances ahead when it may be necessary to humbly follow instructions from elders or those in the lead. We won't always be able to understand, or we might even disagree, but we will humbly follow along so that we don't end up creating worse circumstances for everyone. If a coach thinks a certain move is best for a strategic football play, then even if you think you know a better play, you'd best work with the team, or else your own ideas will just ruin the play altogether. It's easy to exaggerate quotes about obedience and think they mean something they don't.

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2 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

But what must be remembered is that we are all imperfect, so none of us are mentally well balanced. 

 

3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

The issue of mental health, unfortunately, is still touchy.

Mental illnesses are also called mental disorders. They are extremely common in the population. Australia and US 1 of 5 live with mental illness, globally 1 of 10. 

 

    Hello guest!
    

    Hello guest!

    Hello guest!

List of disorders is long. 

    Hello guest!
  

There are nearly 300 mental disorders listed in the DSM-5 (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders). This is a handbook used by health professionals to help identify and diagnose mental illness. - 

    Hello guest!

13 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I do think you will be seen as one of hundreds of mentally disturbed and imbalanced persons who has associated with Jehovah's Witnesses.

1) Does "free will", as gift from god or as our imagined concept, contribute to this problem, cause it? Always present problem of what we want and wish on one side and what we may, must and should on another.

2) Is Gospel sort of magnet for "disturbed and imbalanced" people, if we have in mind who, what sort of people Jesus called and expected to follow Him (people who are rejected from society, who "suffered" )?

3) Does, whether JW's who left WTJWorg are good material to be more imbalanced and have mental issues? Or Organization as complete/ finalized system created individuals who would/will be "lost" without Organization?   

......etc.

 

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15 hours ago, JW Insider said:

You show a lot of bravery and boldness in sending your letters as you have. But you also display a lot of haughtiness in a way that makes me think you are likely not always aware of how you come across to other people

Hi JW Insider, you know people are different with different strong and weak sides. And some have special gifts that they are born with. Think about John the Baptist. He spoke very strongly and boldly and lived an abnormal life in the desert. And apostle Paul was not either a normal apostle. But he was gifted with special skills and exceptional drive for the good news. 

Persons that are able to make extraordinary things that impact the world around them extraordinarily are usually odd persons. 

Many inventors are also odd persons. Some have analyzed what they have in common and they have found that many of them actually have the Aspergers' syndrome.

Thanks to their extraordinary capabilities, they can figure out new things quite easily, and its sad when the majority has difficultis to recognize fast enough that they often come with valuable new findings. 

But I don't take credit for the more accurate knowledge I have gained. Because if Jehovah God would not had let me understand, I would not had understood, despite the fact that I am quite good at figuring out how things really work.

And I was appalled by the latest WT study edition so I prayed to Jehovah God to get an idea what could be done when the WT organization stubbornly refuses to correct themselves. And I got at once an idea, thanks to God, that I have to dubble down. And write them a whole list of their errors and do a cowork with God. Yes, according to the logic in God's word, a warning has to be given first, only after that can Jehovah force a change by some kind of punishment. 

So, JW insider, I can not see were my logic failed in this case, from a biblical point of view. 

I think I followed the examples of biblical persons such as John the Baptist and apostle Paul.

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6 hours ago, JW Insider said:

But many of his points have gone off into complete fantasy, too, imo. Mixing those issues together will lose any audience even where good points are made.

You could consider how Br. Russell learned many new things. He also went "everywhere" and found scatered pieces of truths. Nothing wrong with that. Just important to have God's help to pick the thuths and not any false ideas. I believe if we sincerely everyday pray for guidance and protection in our search for a more accurate understanding, then we will not get lost.

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6 hours ago, JW Insider said:

But many of his points have gone off into complete fantasy, too, imo. Mixing those issues together will lose any audience even where good points are made.

You could consider how Br. Russell learned many new things. He also went "everywhere" and found scatered pieces of truths. Nothing wrong with that. Just important to have God's help to pick the thuths and not any false ideas. I believe if we sincerely everyday pray for guidance and protection in our search for a more accurate understanding, then we will not get lost.

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@Kosonen What you say in the first above comment to JWI, makes good sense, whereas your letter seems to be making too many demands or too much to focus on at once. 

And your idea of literally flying off to the wilderness is just your personal viewpoint, which you are entitled to of course. But you do not sound mentally unbalanced in your above comment. 

And I like the idea of people from the Anointed making direct remarks to the GB. The idea of giving the GB a warning sounds sensible, but of course will upset the GB followers. Whether any letters at all actually get to the GB is another thing, but as I've mentioned before, 'With God all things are possible'. 

 

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2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I don't think anyone is seriously considering taking airplanes to Australia 

But I feel more and more urgency and such a coincidence, thousands of empty planes all around the world, cheap jet fuel, lock down, empty kingdom halls. Its like the perfect moment for all witnesses to go to Australia together. Empty useless kingdom halls could now easily be sold before departure. And soon is the summer. Jesus said we should pray that our flight would not occur in winter time. Can there come any better time?

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44 minutes ago, Kosonen said:

So, JW insider, I can not see were my logic failed in this case, from a biblical point of view. 

I think I followed the examples of biblical persons such as John the Baptist and apostle Paul.

Thanks for answering. Most of what you in this last post are things I think we can all agree with.

However, I was already sure that you could not see where your logic failed. And I was already sure that you were trying to follow the examples of Biblical persons like John the Baptist, the apostle Paul and others like them.

Understand that this is not some kind of accusation. But, in case it isn't already clear, you should be aware that others will commonly see symptoms of various disorders.when they read your words. Perhaps you already know this. I mentioned a brother above, and I was one of his best friends at Bethel. I spoke to him a few times and we corresponded about his "Alex Jones" type beliefs that he somehow had managed to conflate with the our books on Daniel and Isaiah and Revelation. He was interesting and very clever at rationalizing how extremely unlikely things could just happen. Those things didn't happen but that didn't seem to bother him. There was always another feature to add to the mix.

It also seemed to me that he was losing a grip on reality, and I thought he should seek some help. His family, mother and brother, were noticing the same. Within a few years, he was losing jobs although skilled. Later he lost his marriage, lost his visiting rights to his child, and even got himself arrested once for acting out in a threatening way to a stranger. (A huge surprise as he was always quiet, unassuming, sweet, calm, etc.) He was even homeless before admitting his financial issues when he finally moved back in to his parents' home. Although I tried to encourage him nicely, he stopped talking to me for hinting that some of his "scriptural" fantasies might be related to his mental health. That was probably my own stupidity for not knowing how to talk to someone in his situation. These days I can only find out how he is doing by calling his brother, or his elderly mother.

So, I'm sorry about reacting based on my personal experience with someone else, but there are just more similarities to you own experience than you would ever believe. And, of course, here I go again not minding my business. But I feel kind of obligated. I hope you understand. 

So, I still wanted to know if persons you trust also feel that you might find some benefit from a mental health check-up. And if they do feel that way, I wondered if you would consider seeking that kind of health assistance.

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28 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

What you say in the first above comment to JWI, makes good sense, whereas your letter seems to be making too many demands or too much to focus on at once. 

Yes, that was the point to make all the demands in one letter. To show them how wrong and mistaken they are. To brake their illusion that they are truly in the truth. If you have read the July study edition, you could see how hard the WT organization tries to convince its members that everything is fine with their doctines, especially their explanations about end time prophecies. But they are completely off. And the main reason is that they are based on 1914. 

And secondly, when the next blow hits the WT, they might be more inclined to look at all the things I pointed out in the letter. 

Otherwise they could underestimate how far astray they really are.

And I feel a strong urgency of the timing of our flight according to Revelation 12:6. So there has to happen a lot of correction fast. 

I have already sent letters last year to all branch offices in the world about the need to flee to Australia as soon the persecution begins in USA against the WT. But the only thing I have heard back are all the WT articles that distort the true meaning of Ezekiel 38 and Daniel 11 etc.

So they have had time to think through the subject. But they have failed to believe what must be done. 

So I felt I have to double down and tell them that they teach at least 30 teachings wrong. The problem is not just one or two false teachings, but tens.

They have to wake up. Because the prophecies in the Bible have to get thier fulfillment concerning the symbolic woman's flight with wings of a great eagle to the safe place described in Ezekiel 38 until Gog comes to threaten to plunder.

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23 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

So, I still wanted to know if persons you trust also feel that you might find some benefit from a mental health check-up. And if they do feel that way, I wondered if you would consider seeking that kind of health assistance

You know, Jehovah and Jesus helped apostle Paul to survive and John the Baptist surely had Jehovah God's protection and help to survive in the desert. So I think that is the example to follow. To pray Jehovah's help with the daily life. About 10 years ago my wife wanted that I go and check if I have the Aspergers syndrom. So I was diagnozed. It was very thorough. It took 4 sessions 2 hours each. My mental capabilities got tested with various types of tests.

And the advice I got was to just be myself and to try to find my place in the world. And to use my talents. But I try also to lower the intensity of my emotions by for example Ashwagandha root powder. 2 tea spoons a day. 

And I have read some books for Aspergers with advices for us. And I have also learnt quite a lot from youtube. I appreciated many of the advices on a youtube chanel named 'brainy dose'.

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@Kosonen

I have followed Asperger's Syndrome very closely. I thought I knew someone who must have had it as a child, but which was only detectable as a mild case when he was older. My wife was a school principal in a very large school, and the need to test for a wide spectrum of disorders was mandatory. If they want to, a lot of people with Asperger's can use their intelligence (with effort) to make up for the social deficits, to the point where they can seem to hide it from others. It is often accompanied by moodiness and even depression, but these could also be "chicken and egg" symptoms of social disappointments. I haven't looked into the variety of treatments, but I would guess you are on the right track if persons you trust have encouraged diagnosis and treatment.

If Asperger's is an issue, this is a problem that people can live with. As you say, just live your life and do the best you can, use your talents, and certain advantages will make up for deficits. You would be right to learn what you can and not be overly concerned with what other people say you must do.

Still I would watch the moods carefully, as A.S. can apparently be associated with sleep issues, depression, energy levels, sensitivity to counsel, temper, emotions, etc. Everyone (like me) seems to be always trying to advise, when often the person just needs a sympathetic ear, or wishes to explain their issues, not looking for solutions to problems.

Anyway, I'm happy to learn that you have looked into things related to your mood and emotions. I'm sure I've said enough or too much already. I'll drop it from my end.

When I get some time, I'd like to look at those issues you bring up.

 

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6 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

you seem to have joined forces with others on here that think that all people that mention the bad points of CCJW should join together as one.

There is a difference between not seeing eye-to-eye on certain matters or even recognizing the fact that sometimes things happen within the CCJW that shouldn't happen. Even best of friends or husbands and wives will disagree on matters once-in-a-while. But being in "opposition" is taking it a step farther. It indicates a mental attitude or inclination that is almost always negative, contrary with an agenda - even trying to "draw disciples after themselves." 

Please don't twist my words to suit your argument by insinuating I had suggested all who disagree "should join together/be united as one" against the CCJWs. My actual words (see below) were practical, suggesting it's not our job to put out every fire someone who disagrees with us starts, or clean up the mess of those flinging so much mud against the wall from many different directions in the hope that something will stick. Why don't those who seem to have differences with JWs first do among themselves what they are expecting us to do? It is obvious you don't even agree amongst yourselves on many points. Why don't you take the time to correct each other first and see what (if anything) merits further consideration? For example: Do you agree that we should all flee to Australia? Or that the COVID pandemic is punishment from God? No? Why not? If this is an open forum, why shouldn't you feel free to question some of the other assertions that you don't agree with from other posters too?

On 5/11/2020 at 2:32 PM, b4ucuhear said:

Why don't all you opposers fight it out between yourselves first, and then present one winner - one Goliath - instead of all the moving targets you usually present.

 

6 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

You also seem to have dropped yourself into the trap of calling many people opposers,

"Trap?" What trap? Many people are opposers. Do you think the Russian government, Satan's system, apostates and demonstrators are not in opposition to what JW's believe or teach? 

 

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5 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

.... Finding the correct balance of words, tone, and emphasis is often very difficult when your wife asks "Do you think I look fat?'

Tell me about it. My wife texted that to me: “Do you think I look fat?” Of course, I texted back “Noo!” extra ‘o’ for emphasis.

AI changed it to ‘Moo!”

Any room for me with your chickens?

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Will the GB be fired?

“Jezebel”: 

Ἰεζαβήλ Iezabḗl, ee-ed-zab-ale'; of Hebrew origin (

    Hello guest!
); Jezabel (i.e. Jezebel), a Tyrian woman (used as a synonym of a termagant or false teacher):—Jezabel.

The GB uphold past leaders who misled thousands with false teachings.  They speak highly of Russel and of Rutherford.   What sort of person “in Christ” would condone such behavior? Would God? No.   Would the Holy Spirit?  No.  Would Christ?  No. So, why is it that millions of people allow the GB to get away with it?  They are “seduced”.  God’s anointed are seduced by false teachers in the last days. (Matt 24:24) Think about it.  If you grasp on to a teaching and are told it is “the truth”, then proceed to carry it to others only to find out a few years later that it was a falsehood, you were seduced…by false teachers.  And, you were attempting to seduce others with the same falsehood. 

Falsehoods permeate the organization.  How can any JW not admit this?  Because, these lies are not called falsehoods by its leaders (yet they will point out falsehoods in Christendom).  They are called “adjustments”, and “beliefs clarified”.  Where in His word, does it say that God calls a lie, an “adjustment”, and that its okay to dismiss it and continue listening to more falsehoods?  Jer 23:16 points out that "visions of their own heart" make the hearer "worthless". Every failed date is a false "vision".   Is this what good spiritual food is all about?  

JWs have been spiritually seduced by a Jezebel/Harlot.  It’s called spiritual drunkenness.  (1 Thess 5:7; Rev 17:1,2)  If they were “awake”, they would see that a lie is a lie…always.  JWs are taught not to lie, yet their leaders can lie, and they are excused for it.  This is insanity, and cognitive dissonance. 

Is it ethical to dismiss the severity of lies spoken in the name of God? Is it spiritually moral, or immoral?   

A spiritually immoral person is a “harlot”, a “Jezebel”. At one time God called His nation a Harlot. (the book of Hosea)  Do JWs think their leaders are immune to God's judgments who also tell falsehoods just as easily as God's people did in the past?  They told lies and practiced idolatry.  Satan is busier than ever before to deceive "the elect".  It is only through demonic deceit that one can believe they live in truth, yet speak a lie.  

But I have this against you: You tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess and teaches and deceives my servants to commit sexual immorality and to eat meat sacrificed to idols. 21 I gave her time to repent, but she does not want to repent of her sexual immorality. 22 Look, I will throw her into a sickbed and those who commit adultery with her into great affliction. Unless they repent of her works, 23 I will strike her children with a plague. Then all the churches will know that I am the one who examines minds and hearts, and I will give to each of you according to your works. Rev 2:20-23

Do you see this?  The “works”, (especially of the anointed “Israel”), of those who represent an organization that still supports false prophets and falsehoods spoken by false teachers today, are being examined by Christ.   Does this mean anything to any JW?  Rev 3:15-18; Rev 11:1,2

The organization is an idol. Rev 13:1,2  As long as JWs support it and the leaders who expect due admiration to “Jehovah’s organization”, they are idolaters. Rev 13:4   Some JW mentioned recently that it “isn’t the organization” but the recognition of the “slave” God has appointed to lead His people that is of vital spiritual importance.   What does the GB teach, but “organization” and its necessity for one’s salvation?  They are inseparable. Rev 13:11-14  Would a “faithful slave” of God teach truth on the one hand and uphold an organization rife with falsehoods on the other?  How is this faithful to TRUTH?

He feeds on ashes. His deceived mind has led him astray, and he cannot rescue himself, or say, “Isn’t there a lie in my right hand?”  Isa 44:20 

The Beast with two horns from the Earth is not symbolic for two political rulers of the world that WT teaches.  I didn’t realize until recently, that they didn’t equate this false prophet as the same entity as the Harlot of Rev 17:1,2   They are the same identity.  This harlot rides the Beast of Rev 13:1, the very same Beast that the false prophet of Rev 13:11 directs.  She’s in charge of the Beast/organization.

The GB is in charge of the “spirit’breathed”/spirit-directed organization.  Rev 13:15

Rev 13:11 –  "Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth; it had two horns like a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon.“

A lamb - a young sheep.  We can use the scriptures to understand that this is a false prophet, not two political rulers:

“Be on your guard against false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravaging wolves.”  Matt 7:15

They come from the anointed congregation of Christ:

“I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock.  30 Men will rise up even from your own number and distort the truth to lure the disciples into following them. “

“For if a person comes and preaches another Jesus, whom we did not preach, or you receive a different spirit, which you had not received, or a different gospel, which you had not accepted, you put up with it splendidly!”  2 Cor 11:4

Did the apostles preach “organization”?  Or, did they preach truth in Christ?  Did they tell lies and later call them “adjustments”?  They were “faithful slaves” overseeing food distribution of God’s household.  Did they label themselves that?  Or, did their works and words of truth prove they were faithful?  Matt 24:45-51

In Rev 13:11, “horn” represents kings (Rev 17:12) – not those found in politics, but they are Christ’s kings. (Rev 1:5; 5:9,10)  He is the “king of kings” – of his anointed kings. Rev 17:14  Kings in Satan’s world are not on par with Christ’s kings. They have no play in Armageddon, a decisive battle of truth against lies. Joel 3:14  Those “kings” among the anointed “from your own number”, draw away other anointed through spiritual seduction – demonic expressions.  Rev 16:13-16

The Beast from the Earth represents a succession of false teachers/”Jezebel “of Revelation 2 that mislead the children of “Israel”. (Rev 2:14)

These “two horns” – two kings – appear to represent “truth”.
“Even in your law it is written that the testimony of two witnesses is true.”  John 8:17

Gerrit Loesch stressed, “do you trust me?  I hope you do”.  Apparently, you must trust him, because God and Jesus do.  I wonder how he knows this, if he isn’t inspired. But, JWs trust him, nonetheless.  Rev 8:10,11  Is it necessary for a “faithful slave” of Christ to ask such a question? Jesus said we would “know them by their fruits” – their teachings; and his teachings condone the teachings of false prophets.  Matt 7:15-20

 

So, what eventually happens to this harlot? Well, what happened to “Queen” Jezebel? 

”When Jehu”…(the tenth King of the northern tribe of Israel)…

…came to Jezreel, Jezebel heard about it, so she painted her eyes, fixed her hair, and looked down from the window. 31 As Jehu entered the city gate, she said, “Do you come in peace, Zimri, killer of your master?”

32 He looked up toward the window and said, “Who is on my side? Who?” Two or three eunuchs looked down at him, 33 and he said, “Throw her down!” So they threw her down, and some of her blood splattered on the wall and on the horses, and Jehu rode over her.”

God used eunuchs servants of the king to kill Jezebel.  The harlot false prophet of Rev 13:11 is spiritually “killed” by “ten kings” not sealed by God as His faithful kings.  They, along with the Beast organization will “eat her flesh and burn her with fire”. 

The GB will be dismissed, disfellowshipped, hidden away; however it happens, the organization will take on a new combined leadership of anointed and elders not anointed.

 “The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast. 13 These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast. 

Then he said to me, “The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues. 16 And the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17 For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled. 18 And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth.”  Rev 17:12,13, 15-18

The religions of the world do not target the “saints”/anointed because they don’t know who they are.  Only those in the Watchtower are aware of their existence.  Judging them as spiritually “dead” for rejecting false christs is, in Revelation, the shedding of spiritual “blood”.  Rev 17:3-6

Rev 18:4-8 tells God’s people, “Israel” to leave, to get out; otherwise, they share in the sins of the Harlot.  Each heart and mind is examined for what we love.  2 Thess 2:9-12  How does anyone stand before Christ in confidence, when he asks why we supported false prophets and the lie that an organization built in the adversary’s domain, can lead one to truth? 

 

 

 

    Hello guest!

 

 

 

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On 5/9/2020 at 1:37 PM, Kosonen said:

Before punishing, God sends his messengers to expose the fault. And if the advice is ignored, then there is left only one option, a punishment.

This probably gets their attention and, these days, could even result in a call to some kind of law enforcement. Not very discreet.

On 5/9/2020 at 1:37 PM, Kosonen said:

But as Pharaoh did not change God had to bring upon him even more hard-hitting plagues. 

A thinly veiled threat. You don't expect the WTS to change, so you indicate the threat of a series of increasingly damaging plagues. You still have not completely clarified that you, as God's messenger, are only an observer or message carrier, rather than a deliverer of plagues. Perhaps you will get an extra few feet of social distancing out of this one.

On 5/9/2020 at 1:37 PM, Kosonen said:

It was a shock that the Russian government confiscated all that belonged of the WT. Why would Jehovah God allow that to happen? Could it be because the WT society is ignoring the advice from God's word, that is presented to it from messengers like me?

Others have pointed out that this makes little sense. The Russian government only took property. The vast majority of JWs in Russia are fine and can still communicate with one another and worship together in smaller groups. In fact, they are now in about the same situation as every other religion is in right now, only they got there a few months earlier. There is zero evidence that this was discipline, but even if it was:

(Hebrews 12:5, 6) . . .“My son, do not belittle the discipline from Jehovah, nor give up when you are corrected by him; 6 for those whom Jehovah loves he disciplines, in fact, he scourges everyone whom he receives as a son.”

There is zero evidence or likelihood that you (or some "messenger" like you) were somehow partly responsible for Russia's actions. Do you think that the persecution of JWs and Bible Students and Jews in Germany under Hitler was because Rutherford and others didn't listen to some messenger? There was perhaps also a Jewish messenger that most Jews failed to listen to throughout several countries in Europe?

I think the "affliction" in Russia actually helped create a world-wide witness and created increased cohesion among Witnesses all around the world, at minimal cost in terms of suffering and property loss. To me, you sound a bit like the disciples and others looking for sin and judgment where it was not to be found:

(John 9:2, 3) . . .And his disciples asked him: “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, so that he was born blind?” 3 Jesus answered: “Neither this man sinned nor his parents, but it was so that the works of God might be made manifest in his case.

(Luke 13:1-4) . . .At that time some who were present reported to him about the Gal·i·leʹans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2 In reply he said to them: “Do you think that those Gal·i·leʹans were worse sinners than all other Gal·i·leʹans because they have suffered these things? . . . 4 Or those 18 on whom the tower in Si·loʹam fell, killing them—do you think that they had greater guilt than all other men who live in Jerusalem?

On 5/9/2020 at 1:37 PM, Kosonen said:

Could this Corona-virus be a plague from God? Like some of the plagues God brought upon Egypt, that also affected his people the Israelites? 

This virus too will pass. And new viruses will come along. And this one will keep coming back for more. I suspect that, even this year, more JWs worldwide will have died from mosquito-borne illnesses than this Covid-19. It's a terrible "plague" for sure, but the real impact in the long run will be economic, even on the WTS/CCJW. Perhaps Patterson will be sold off as a college campus to some outside institution someday, and there will be more consolidation of branches and halls. Do you think that will really bother anyone in the long run? I think Covid-19 actually enhanced our reputation and showed us that we can adapt with less, if necessary. And I think it also makes us realize the need we have to depend on one another socially, too.

On 5/9/2020 at 1:37 PM, Kosonen said:

I want you to reflect on the fact that the Corona-virus has caused that meetings at Kingdom halls have been canceled. And 2020 physical conventions have been canceled. And the public ministry by door-to-door witnessing has been canceled. 

It might create a good test that makes some Witnesses assess just how true they were to the brotherhood. I imagine that several of the typical service measurements will be down. It takes a little more effort for some to feel motivated without their peers side-by-side. For others this is a chance to explore the effectiveness of informal witnessing to family, distant relatives and friends. I think that contributions will suffer and this reality will have to be handled with great care by brothers who will have to bring up the topic on the broadcasts for example. I expect that opposers are waiting to spring on any further reference to economic hardships at the WTS.

On the other hand, more people are probably home finding the website during lockdowns.

On 5/9/2020 at 1:37 PM, Kosonen said:

Here below I will provide you a list of untrue teachings and practises the WT society must correct in order to please Jehovah God.

I'd like to discuss these too, but it will have to be later.

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1 hour ago, Witness said:

But I have this against you: You tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess and teaches and deceives my servants to commit sexual immorality and to eat meat sacrificed to idols. 

If anybody accuses me of "tolerating" any real or perceived errors or imaginary evils done by the Governing Body, I will respond in this way:

Currently, there is no one on Earth that can depose the Governing Body, and because that is true, all things must be endured.

The sole tool any JW has is voting with their feet, or wallet.

There is a difference between "toleration", and endurance.

There is ONLY one excuse for rebellion.

If you win.

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10 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Sister Talks-To-Herself-During-Meetings 

Yes, we had one of those in our hall. I think I mentioned it on this forum somewhere before. But then people get upset and acuse us of labeling anointed ones as having mental issues in order to be able to discard them as having no significance....the truth is though that it is difficult to see someone who walks around during the meeting flicking a lighter, telling people she is "working" and talking to herself, among other things, as someone who has been called to rule with Christ in heaven.

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2 hours ago, Anna said:

see someone who walks around during the meeting flicking

I knew someone like this (not anointed) who used to talk to herself..... she had severe diabetes and depression issues. Difficult to deal with them but they also have a right to exist and be part of the organization. If they feel our love it may help them to calm down.

We all judge too quickly and harshly....... we can always improve our love. 

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5 hours ago, Witness said:

Jezebel

The definition in a dictionary does not do justice to the wickedness of this woman. The history of this woman tells you how wicked she was - not a definition of her name.  She exterminated Jehovahs prophets from Israel, and acted in total lawlessness. She promoted the deprived Baal worship everywhere and the deprived rituals that were part of the fertility rights of Baal and Ashtorah.   Elijah thought that he was the only worshiper of jehovah left in Israel..... and felt depressed. This was after he had seen fire come out of heaven in support from jehovah.... but her wicked influence was so great in the country.

No wonder jehovah had the entire family exterminated. Her daughter, Atelijah, ruled Juda for 6 years if I remember correctly.  Her husband and her own sons were killed so that she could rule.  The high priest saved Josiah from being killed. He started to rule at age of 8 after she was destroyed.

Today, opposers of Jehovah's worship and his nation are just as vicious, but in more subtle manner.  Their only goal in life is to destroy Jehovah's people as a nation and subvert the truth.  They are happy if they can break the integrity of JWs and sow doubt.  Their goals are the same as that of Jezebel. 

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On 5/10/2020 at 8:42 AM, Srecko Sostar said:

Jan Kosonen's "foolishness" is wisdom of 

On 5/11/2020 at 10:32 PM, b4ucuhear said:

We all know why JW's are banned and persecuted in Russia and elsewhere. (Hint

 

 With your knowledge of what goes on in other countries, I do not think you have a clue why..... or the real reason why.  You do not understand the governmental system.  Your friends here on the forum call the GB a  dictatorship in total ignorance....... they do not know what a true dictatorship looks like.

So, all I can do is giggle at your assumptions.

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1 hour ago, Arauna said:

Elijah thought that he was the only worshiper of jehovah left in Israel..... and felt depressed.

It is possible, and not only very possible, but Elijah (Jonah, Jeremiah and Job too) asking god for death, because of depressed state of mind (Samson, Saul, Saul's arms bearer and Ahitofel succeeded in suicide wish. 

Even people, whose we do not perhaps consider as "mentally ill, diseased" or "spiritually weak" as faithful god's servants, showed exactly that, mental illness. Wishing to be dead is not what "normal" people ask for.

What situations in life can bring that even "normal" and faithful religious individual (JW's or any other believer) come to "mental imbalance"? One of reason is/can be Flip-Flop with religious doctrines inside WTJWorg, for sure.

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

You do not understand the governmental system. 

After 40 years in WTJWorg it is not of surprise that i am just one of many (JW) ex-JW who was thought by WT Educational System to not going into the wisdom of these ("worldly") world and avoid anything that is opposite of Bible teachings. Bear in mind that i had been connected with JW church (as many other JW's) through my parents from earliest childhood. According to that, i stayed ignorant about many things, not just about governmental system :)))) 

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5 hours ago, Arauna said:

The definition in a dictionary does not do justice to the wickedness of this woman.

The definition was from Strong's concordance of the Bible

5 hours ago, Arauna said:

She exterminated Jehovahs prophets from Israel, and acted in total lawlessness.

It is "lawlessness" to replace God's anointed priesthood with elders not anointed. (2 Thess 2:3,4)   It is a "disgusting thing" "standing where it does not belong" (Mark 13:14), in the "Temple" of God. (1 Cor 3:16,17) (Rev 11:1,2)

God's "chosen" people ARE the priesthood.

Isa 43:10 - “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord,
“And My servant whom I have chosen,
That you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me."

1 Pet 2:9 "But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy."

5 hours ago, Arauna said:

Today, opposers of Jehovah's worship and his nation are just as vicious, but in more subtle manner.  Their only goal in life is to destroy Jehovah's people as a nation and subvert the truth.

Again, God's true "witnesses" comprise the priesthood, which has been replaced and pushed into a discreet corner. They must be silenced.   Satan's goal is to destroy them, and he uses false prophets to "seduce" them into believing they have obtained "peace and security" within the idol/organization.  (1 Thess 5:3)  He seduces them with a flood of lies.  (Rev 12:25) (Rev 16:13,14)

5 hours ago, Arauna said:

They are happy if they can break the integrity of JWs and sow doubt.  Their goals are the same as that of Jezebel. 

It is amazing that my comment on falsehoods spoken by WT's leaders  was not even addressed.  

Jezebel killed God' prophets.  Today, the anointed and anyone who desires to leave falsehoods are spiritually "killed".  (Rev 13:15)  Revelation's "Jezebel" misleads God's chosen slaves.  Rev 2:20   If they are in the Watchtower, they will not be misled by any nation or ruler in the world.

 

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10 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Currently, there is no one on Earth that can depose the Governing Body, and because that is true, all things must be endured.

As mere humans, it appears that way.  Even so, insurrection is caused not only by disagreement with the way a rulership is run, but also the lust to obtain power over the existing authority.  This has happened frequently in the world’s politics.  The GB’s admittance that they are not “inspired”, obviously leaves them spiritually defenseless to a huge army of elders, with the addition of selected anointed, "ten kings", who expose “her” sins.  “God will put it into their hearts” to take the GB down. Rev 17:17  If God's spirit was involved in exposing sins of Israel in the past, why would He refuse to do so now?  

“And when you are plundered, What will you do? Though you clothe yourself with crimson, Though you adorn yourself with ornaments of gold, Though you enlarge your eyes with paint, In vain you will make yourself fair; Your lovers will despise you; They will seek your life.”  Jer 4:30

“These dogs have fierce appetites; they never have enough. And they are shepherds who have no discernment; all of them turn to their own way, every last one for his own profit.”  Isa 56:11

"They will treat you with hatred, take all you have worked for, and leave you stark naked, so that the shame of your debauchery will be exposed, both your depravity and promiscuity. 30 "These things will be done to you because you acted like a prostitute with the nations, defiling yourself with their idols”. Ezek 23:29,30

“This is your lot,
The portion of your measures from Me,” says the Lord,
“Because you have forgotten Me

And trusted in falsehood.
26 
Therefore I will uncover your skirts over your face,
That your shame may appear.” Jer 13:25,26

 

 

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11 hours ago, JW Insider said:

You still have not completely clarified that you, as God's messenger, are only an observer or message carrier, rather than a deliverer of plagues

The deal is like it has always been. Did Jeremiah bring the Babylonians to destroy Jerusalem? No, it was Jehovah God. But would Jehovah have brought in the Babylonians without first warning about it through prophets? No. JW insider, I think you are well aware that Jehovah always warns first through messengers, and if they are ignored, it gives God green light to go a head with punishment. 

We have the warnings already in the Bible. But unfortunately the WT organization insists that those prophecies do not apply on them, because they insist that those prophecies got their fulfillments already during the First world war and the Second world war. 

So somebody has to make it very clear to them that the fulfillment of those prophecies lies ahead of them, and not in the past. And someone has to make it clear to them why those prophecies need to get their fulfillments. Because JWs are unaware of their numerous errors and falsehoods.

Otherwise the JWs would not understand that they have to change. Otherwise JWs would take the coming troubles just like ordinary persecution and would only feel justified. Then JWs would  miss is the point of God's discipline.

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3 hours ago, Witness said:

with elders not anointed. (2

You cannot be an elder.  ..... so your kind of logic proves you twist the bible to your own ends.

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19 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

It indicates a mental attitude or inclination that is almost always negative, contrary with an agenda - even trying to "draw disciples after themselves." 

Spot on.  The MO is always the same. They cannot help themselves.

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19 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

For example: Do you agree that we should all flee to Australia? Or that the COVID pandemic is punishment from God? No

Good point. Before these guys can even get an Australian work Visa, they will  have to be younger than 45 to go to work there and will have to fulfill a whole lot of other criteria. 

With Covid 19, the new international rules for traveling may be a pass to show you have had corona or have been immunised.  You will only be allowed to immigrate if you have had a vaccination..... so those are only two of  the 'practical reasons' for millions of people to not being able to flee to the dry wilderness.

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17 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Currently, there is no one on Earth that can depose the Governing Body, and because that is true, all things must be endured.

Endure spiritual immorality? Righteous Lot endured Sodom’s pervasive sexual immorality, until he was led out by the angels of God. There is another ‘leading out’ by God’s servants from pervasive spiritual immorality.     The “two” (meaning “truth”, not the literal number) “witnesses”, servants of God, give testimony to Christ and reject the “mark” of the organization,  for which they  are spiritually “killed” by the Beast/organization under the guidance of a false prophet. Rev 11:7-10  This is disfellowshipping.   Their “dead bodies” lie in the street of the “great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.”  Rev 17:8

God has called His nation “Sodom” in the past. 

“Also I have seen a horrible thing in the prophets of Jerusalem: They commit adultery and walk in lies; They also strengthen the hands of evildoers, So that no one turns back from his wickedness. All of them are like Sodom to Me, And her inhabitants like Gomorrah.”  Jer 23:14

All of them were considered “like Sodom”.  Enduring false teachings is actually “strengthening the hands of evildoers”. Perhaps in one’s mind, he or she may believe they are not supporting the GB, since they are aware of their hypocrisy.  Yet, remaining with them shows a “lukewarm” attitude toward tolerating a false prophet.  (Rev 3:16)

 These “two witnesses”, two servants of Christ, reveal the “man of lawlessness” which “stands” where it doesn’t belong – in the Temple of God. Mark 13:14; Matt 24:15; 2 Thess 2:3,4; Rev 11:1-3 (1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17; Eph 2:20-22)  The elders “stand” in for, the authentic priesthood.  They “sit” exalted over the Temple priests.  (2 Chron 23:6,7; Num 18:7) They have the authority given to them by the GB to judge Christ priests under him. (Rev 13:15) Since thereis no inspiration in the GB, there is no inspiration in the elders either.  This is a system contrived by men, not by God.  “Another spirit” is the driving power behind its existence. (2 Cor 11:4; Rev 13:2,11)   Why would God reject His own priesthood under Christ and approve of man’s choice? He never has in the past, and it did not go well with those who attempted to replace his chosen priests.  (Num 16:3-7,10,11,18,20,21,35,40)

The call, just as in Lot’s day, is to “come out of her, my people” so we do not “share” in the Harlot’s sins and receive the same plagues she will suffer from. (Rev 18:4) This scripiture doesn’t apply to Christendom.  Many receive their anointing while a member of the organization.  This is Satan’s sifting tool, his source of accusations against those in Christ – God’s “people”. (Luke 22:31; Eph 6:12)   Will they remain and endure false teachings, or will they “endure” suffering from their own people, by siding with Christ and his truth? (Matt 10:34-39)

No one, should endure the teachings of “blind guides”, yet, the majority of  JWs highly protect their modern day “Pharisees” by making excuses for them; who in turn, protect their cohort false teachers since the beginning of their organization. 

Then His disciples came and said to Him, “Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?”

13 But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted. 14 Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch.” Matt 15:12-14

Also, for one reason or another, many JWs also cherish their “god of fortress”/organization more than they may readily admit to.  Dan 11:38

And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.  Luke 17:26-30

And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues. For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities. Render to her just as she rendered to you, and repay her double according to her works; in the cup which she has mixed, mix double for her. In the measure that she glorified herself and lived luxuriously, in the same measure give her torment and sorrow; for she says in her heart, ‘I sit as queen, and am no widow, and will not see sorrow.’ Therefore her plagues will come in one day—death and mourning and famine. And she will be utterly burned with fire, for strong is the Lord God who judges her. Rev 18:4-8

 

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Arauna said:

You cannot be an elder.  ..... so your kind of logic proves you twist the bible to your own ends.

It is an illogical thought to think I prefer to be part of the "man of lawlessness" that "sits" in the Temple of God.

TEMPLE:

1 Pet 2:5 - "you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ."

SPIRITUAL HOUSE:

Eph 2:20-22: having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit."

DWELLING PLACE:

1 Cor 3:16,17 - "Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are."

WHO DEFILES THE TEMPLE?

2 Thess 2:3,4 - "Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God."

Mark 13:14 - “When you see ‘the abomination that causes desolation’ standing where it does not belong—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains."

WHO STANDS IN THE TEMPLE?

Rev 11:1,2 - "I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, with its worshipers. 2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. "

"Gentile" elders judge anointed "Israel", the Temple "living stones" of God.  It is written down in the WT that their rulership cannot be "challenged".

I hope every elder who loves righteousness, will leave the organization.

 

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On 5/9/2020 at 1:37 PM, Kosonen said:

1. You have to stop teaching that for Jehovah God his own sanctification is the most important thing. Because that implies that Jehovah God would be a self-centered, narcissistic God. Instead Jehovah God is first and foremost motivated by love for his creation. Thus He is not primarily motivated by a his own sanctification. Instead it is we humans who should respond to God's love by being first of all motivated by a desire to sanctify God. (John 3:16; 1 John 4:8)

On this first point, you say that the sanctification of Jehovah God is not the most important thing. I agree, but don't see it as such a big deal. I am not sure why anyone decided they needed to prioritize what goes on in Jehovah's mind, if there was nothing specific about this in the Bible. But it could be a way to explain certain verses in the Bible. First of all, it was the very first point Jesus made in a model prayer. Also, Jehovah says he is "jealous." And many of the actions that Jehovah took toward his people reflect this jealousy. And, of course, we see that he is not just jealous in the sense of exacting "exclusive" devotion, but he is jealous for his people too. Therefore, he will protect them, even miraculously when the necessary times arrive.

But this old argument about whether the sanctification of his name or vindication of his sovereignty are most important was probably always a false dichotomy. The Watchtower has explained recently that they are not separate. But I think it's just as possible to show that his love for us is not separate either.

*** w20 June p. 2 par. 1 “Let Your Name Be Sanctified” ***
However, it is not as if we would have to contrast God’s sovereignty and the sanctification of his name—as if they were separate matters.

I happen to agree completely with the idea that Jehovah's primary motivation is love for his creation. And in response we should be motivated to make make sure we represent God as pure and holy. We witness about Him, because this is what we want people to know: that he is pure, holy, good and righteous. There is blasphemy against his name (reputation) today. People think he must be uncaring or non-existent because of rampant wickedness. We want to "clear" his name because we know God as loving and patient.

Either way, however, we should remember that sanctification literally just refers to holiness, and this is still a good priority, even if not the top priority. As I'll try to touch on below, perhaps there is an overlap between God's love for us and his goal for sanctification that we can't completely comprehend. His thoughts are higher than ours.

I think the point of prioritizing is that the "theory" needs to reflect back on the reason for the "universal court case" we find in the book of Job, the conflict in the Garden of Eden, the first and last Adam, ransom, redemption. It's just a way of clarifying and encompassing the ideas of the "OT" where Jehovah's name is Jealous and the "NT" God who is Love. (In actuality, both ideas are found in all parts of the Bible.) "Sanctification" is a kind of shorthand for the entire purpose of the "universal court case" and the opening up of a Kingdom to humans so that this love can be shown to the benefit of all his creation. Sinful, wicked humans are unable to truly approach the holy ground where Jehovah stands unless Jehovah had provided the redemption of Christ to give Christians an undeserved holy standing in order to approach his holiness. God's love, as expressed in John 3:16, is part and parcel of the sanctification process, so that he can truly show his love to the world and still be true to Himself:

(1 Corinthians 15:44-50) . . .It is sown a physical body; it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. . . . 50 But I tell you this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

(Romans 8:18-23) 18 For I consider that the sufferings of the present time do not amount to anything in comparison with the glory that is going to be revealed in us. 19 For the creation is waiting with eager expectation for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but through the one who subjected it, on the basis of hope 21 that the creation itself will also be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God. 22 For we know that all creation keeps on groaning together and being in pain together until now. 23 Not only that, but we ourselves also who have the firstfruits, namely, the spirit, yes, we ourselves groan within ourselves while we are earnestly waiting for adoption as sons, the release from our bodies by ransom.

So, if Jehovah's sanctification is a necessary part of the process by which he can show love to all and redeem all of creation back to himself, then it can't be such a big deal that someone teaches that it is of the utmost priority. It's not like the WTS teaches that God is not Love, or that this is only some idea of lesser importance.

Because Jehovah can declare humans righteous out of love, we will all be able to declare Jehovah righteous. We even sanctify Christ by our defense of the same hope made possible by the ransom:

(Romans 5:8-11) . . .But God recommends his own love to us in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more, then, since we have now been declared righteous by his blood, will we be saved through him from wrath. 10 For if when we were enemies we became reconciled to God through the death of his Son, how much more we will be saved by his life, now that we have become reconciled. 11 Not only that, but we are also rejoicing in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

(1 Peter 3:15) . . .But sanctify the Christ as Lord in your hearts, always ready to make a defense before everyone who demands of you a reason for the hope you have

*** w19 August p. 28 Faith—A Strengthening Quality ***
First, view the ransom as God’s personal gift to you. The apostle Paul said: “I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and handed himself over for me.” (Gal. 2:20) When you exercise faith in Jesus, you firmly believe that the ransom applies to you, is the basis for forgiving your sins, offers you the hope of everlasting life, and is the greatest confirmation of God’s love for you.

(Jude 20, 21) 20 But you, beloved ones, build yourselves up on your most holy [sanctified] faith, and pray with holy [sanctified] spirit, 21 in order to keep yourselves in God’s love, while you await the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ with everlasting life in view.

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On 5/9/2020 at 9:37 PM, Kosonen said:

sanctification is the most important thing.

Well, the bible says one must not be wise in your own eyes.  Can one really take it upon oneself to criticize the translation of the lord's prayer? Jesus himself taught his followers to pray for the 'sanctification' of Jehovah's name.... so Jesus was wrong in teaching us to pray for his father's name to be sanctified?  Is Jehovah God not pure and holy?  Should He not be viewed as separate from everything else? Above every other human-made god and thing and above the angels and everything else in heaven?

Jesus came to earth to sanctify his fathers name by setting the example of how we should live. He became the chief agent for Jehovah's purpose to be completed. He would be the ransom sacrifice and guarantor for mankind to be brough back into a perfect relationship with Jehovah.  The purpose is to restore imperfect humans back into a direct relationship with Jehovah, a relationship which Adam willfully broke. 

The kingdom of Jesus will restore us to Jehovah - not Jesus. Jehovah is so great and so pure...... yet most people view Jesus as equal to him.  This is a lie.  Jesus himself taught that only his father is good. Jesus is NOT equal to god and never can be because he is a creation of God - even if he is a perfect reflection of his father.  He is a mere 'reflection' of the real thing - the reality the truth.  God is also Jesus' father (life-giver)  "John20:17 Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers

    Hello guest!
and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father
    Hello guest!
and your Father and to my God
    Hello guest!
and your God.’”

"Our father in heaven, may your name be sanctified." The book of Mathew was originally written in Hebrew - and eventually translated by Mathew himself into Greek (if I remember correctly).

While JWs relied heavily on personalities for some of our teachings in our past history, do you not think that they keep doing research when they teach us the importance of the sanctification of the name of God? Do they not revise and correct some of the past teachings? So why is it that this fundamental truth is still with us?

Here is a link to Hebrew scholar Nehemia Gordon going into the word "sanctification" as opposed to 'hallowed':   He says that Jews can pray this prayer and goes into the fact that the Hebrew scriptures also calls Jehovah "father" many times.  Why?  well the word father means "life-giver" so why would you not sanctify the one who is responsible for your life and everything else?

 

What I do not understand is this:  why do people not think things through before criticizing? 

It is only when all people on earth let go of their false gods and their own  ideas.... and all serve Jehovah in unity and truly "sanctify" him that there will ever be peace of earth.  When all revere only that one name and without question follow all the wonderful qualities and principles/laws associated with that name.  

I read a bit of the book of revelation again this week and all the scenes in heaven show the angels and all created beings falling before Jehovah and praising him.  He is worthy of all praise. .....We can only be sanctified if we are in total and perfect harmony with Jehovah, like Jesus was. Please read the entire John 17 - Jesus' prayer the night he died to Jehovah.  He mentioned Jehovah's name so many times in the prayer.  "john 17: Sanctify them by means of the truth;

    Hello guest!
your word is truth.
    Hello guest!
18  Just as you sent me into the world, I also sent them into the world.
    Hello guest!
19  And I am sanctifying myself in their behalf, so that they also may be sanctified by means of truth.

Jehovah is the absolute standard for sanctification / purity and truth.

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On 5/9/2020 at 1:37 PM, Kosonen said:

You have to stop denigrating Jesus' sufferings and love for humans and mankind. The WT society teaches that Jesus' agony before his trial was because his death would bring reproach on Jehovah. Because he would be killed as a criminal besides two criminals. No, that is false. Jesus was in agony because the knew how much physical pain he would have to feel. Having a true understanding of this allows one to feel pity for Jesus and to fully appreciate the sacrifice he did for mankind out of love for us. Jesus was not worried about the disgrace his death on a torture stake would cause, to the contrary it was a cause of glory for him and for Jehovah God. (John 12:23; John 13:31-33; Hebrews 12:2)

The Bible doesn't exactly say why Jesus showed so much agony even in his prayers to God. But, again, the Watchtower already contains many articles highlighting his humanity and his love. Even the verses about his extreme suffering are no longer applied specifically to the potential reproach his death could bring. Note the word "evidently" in the following:

*** w07 2/15 p. 27 pars. 15-16 “Children, Be Obedient to Your Parents” ***
Jesus’ mental and physical suffering became so great that the Bible says that he “offered up supplications and also petitions . . . with strong outcries and tears.” (Hebrews 5:7) When did this happen?
16 In particular, it occurred during the final hours of Jesus’ earthly life when Satan made an all-out attempt to break His integrity. Jesus was evidently so tortured by thoughts of how his death as a supposed evildoer might reflect badly on his Father’s reputation that as “he continued praying [in the garden of Gethsemane] his sweat became as drops of blood falling to the ground.” A few hours later, his manner of death on a torture stake was so painful that Jesus uttered “strong outcries [with] tears.” (Luke 22:42-44; Mark 15:34) He thus “learned obedience from the things he suffered” and thereby made his Father’s heart rejoice. Now in heaven, Jesus feels our pain as we often struggle to be obedient.—Proverbs 27:11; Hebrews 2:18; 4:15.

I don't see anyone minimizing the pain. This is even seen in the hundreds of times when the Watchtower highlights the translation of "stauros" as a torture stake, not just some iconic, spiritual symbol. And we should remember that the "stauros" was specifically intended to bring pain, shame and humiliation, which is why the Romans even stripped away the undergarments to expose the nakedness and powerlessness and humiliation of the one tortured.

So, I think it is still is a point worth considering that the "cup" was the potential humiliation and shame on God's name. Some would even see  Christianity as "accursed" over this. But this need not discredit the pain and love Jesus showed. Since about the time of that article above, I see both aspects highlighted.

*** w06 10/1 p. 21 par. 2 Courage Strengthened by Love ***
Yes, love can impel humans to show outstanding courage. Jesus Christ himself stated: “No one has love greater than this, that someone should surrender his soul in behalf of his friends.” (John 15:13) Less than 24 hours after Jesus said these words, he gave his own life, not for just one person, but for mankind. (Matthew 20:28) Moreover, Jesus did not offer up his life in a spur-of-the-moment act of bravery. He knew in advance that he would be ridiculed and abused, unjustly sentenced, and put to death on a torture stake. He even prepared his disciples for this outcome, saying: “Here we are, advancing up to Jerusalem, and the Son of man will be delivered to the chief priests and the scribes, and they will condemn him to death and will deliver him to men of the nations, and they will make fun of him and will spit upon him and scourge him and kill him.”—Mark 10:33, 34.

*** ws17 August p. 25 par. 15 How We Put On and Keep On the New Personality ***
When Jesus was in extreme pain on the torture stake, he asked his Father to forgive the men who put him to death. He said: “They do not know what they are doing.” (Luke 23:34) Even when Jesus was under stress or in pain, he remained mild and patient.—Read 1 Peter 2:21-23.

*** ws16 April p. 12 par. 10 “Let Endurance Complete Its Work” ***
Even Jesus could have felt that way. When he was being executed on the torture stake, he was humiliated and in a lot of pain. This must have been the most difficult time in his life! What helped him endure? The Bible says that he looked at “the joy that was set before him.”

*** w09 9/15 p. 11 par. 1 Be Obedient and Courageous as Christ Was ***
These enemies caused Jesus intense mental, emotional, and physical pain. Ultimately, they succeeded in bringing about his death on the torture stake

*** w10 8/15 p. 5 Resist the Pressure of Public Opinion ***
In order to maintain his integrity to Jehovah, Jesus underwent the most dishonorable execution possible. “He endured a torture stake, despising shame.” (Heb. 12:2) Jesus’ enemies slapped him, spat on him, stripped him, flogged him, impaled him, and reviled him. (Mark 14:65; 15:29-32) Yet, Jesus despised the shame that they attempted to heap on him. How? He refused to shrink from such treatment. Jesus knew that he lost no dignity in Jehovah’s eyes, and he certainly sought no glory from men. Even though Jesus died the death of a slave, Jehovah dignified him by resurrecting him and giving him the most honorable place next to Him. At Philippians 2:8-11, we read: “[Christ Jesus] humbled himself and became obedient as far as death, yes, death on a torture stake. For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.”
Jesus was not insensitive to the feelings of disgrace that accompanied his execution. Possible dishonor to his Father resulting from Jesus’ being condemned for blasphemy was a matter of concern to God’s Son. Jesus asked Jehovah to spare him such indignity. “Remove this cup from me,” he prayed. But Jesus submitted to God’s will. (Mark 14:36) Still, Jesus withstood the pressures brought to bear on him and despised the shame.

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On 5/9/2020 at 1:37 PM, Kosonen said:

3. You have to stop denigrating Jesus' brothers, the anointed among the congregations. They are the firstfruits and they are Jesus' brothers (James 1:8; Revelation 14:4; Matthew 25:31-46)

This supposed denigration is no doubt from the reminders that not all the claimed anointed are really anointed. This is actually a good reminder. I'm pretty sure that it's true. Of course, it should remind us that this also goes for any persons claiming to be anointed, persons who wish to be seen as "superfine apostles," persons who may have begun partaking to gain respect or authority, persons who only desire to be seen as something special. It's not just the ones who might seem crazy to others. In fact, Jehovah can see a pure "heart" of someone where we might only see an unhealthy mind.

So, I'm sure you have a good point here. But the intent is primarily to explain why the numbers of the anointed are rising when the WTS writers expect them to decrease. It's not about individuals, but just a reminder that a percentage of these claimants are probably not truly anointed. But they obviously acknowledge that the truly anointed should not be denigrated. It's just that we can't judge individually who is and who is not.

The Bible itself indicates that not all members of the anointed will ultimately gain the "prize."

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On 5/9/2020 at 1:37 PM, Kosonen said:

4. You have to stop teaching false teachings about: 1914, 1260, 1290, 1335, 2300 days, when Satan was thrown down to earth, the seven headed beast in Revelation 13, the image of the beast, the mark of the beast, the woman and her flight in Revelation 12, who is Babylon the Great, the generation, the disgusting thing causing desolation, the king of the north, the fierce-looking king, the horn that has eyes and a mouth, Daniel 11:29-45, Armageddon, the time of the earthly resurrection, Elijah in the end time, who is the discreet and faithful slave, women's role in the congregation and what is prescribed and what is not allowed them, who is the man of lawlessness, Israel's status in the end time, the meaning of the overseer should be husband of one wife. (1 Timothy 3:2; Titus 1:6; Mark 10:11,12)

I'm guessing that you are from 0 to 50 percent correct on the first three items.

I'd think you were 100 percent correct on this one, except that the WTS is expressing their interpretation of these ideas, and you have your own which you have determined to be better. In other words you are just doing the same thing the WTS is doing. You are interpreting scriptures in a way that seems right to you. You have no better or worse track record than they do with such numbers.

The WTS has already changed their view on some of these numbers and dates, and so have you. For all we know, these numbers have nothing to do with specific dates after the first century. We don't actually have any prophecies about world empires that definitely go past that of the Roman empire. Perhaps it's just our DESIRE to see more world empires predicted, that makes us add to the list that Daniel and Revelation speak about.

So it's very possible that none of us are supposed to try to do anything at all with these dates, as they may have all been fulfilled in the first century. Perhaps all prophecy pointed to the time of Christ. After all, Hebrews speaks of the "last days" already beginning in the first century. Acts speaks of the "last days" beginning in the first century. So does Paul when he explains to Timothy that he is seeing certain behaviors among the congregations because these things were predicted for those "last days" they lived in. Peter and Jude also refer to the kinds of ridiculers showing up in their own time, and they shouldn't be surprised, because such persons had been predicted to show up in those last days. Even John in his letters shows that the "last hour" has begun.

(1 John 2:18) . . .Young children, it is the last hour, and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared, from which fact we know that it is the last hour.

To all these Bible writers, the point "now" (in these last days) is not to get involved with attempts to encroach upon a realm that is the Father's jurisdiction, but to be concerned with what kinds of persons we ought to be. Time predictions should be the last thing on our mind.

The Bible writer James, is one who uses the term "last days" as if he is speaking of a future time ("last days" of the "last days") but he is very informative about how we should deal with this short time. And I think it also concerns your expectations of a necessary flight to Australia or similar ideas:

(James 4:13-16) 13 Come, now, you who say: “Today or tomorrow we will travel to this city and will spend a year there, and we will do business and make some profit,” 14 whereas you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow. For you are a mist that appears for a little while and then disappears. 15 Instead, you should say: “If Jehovah wills, we will live and do this or that.” 16 But now you take pride in your arrogant boasting. All such boasting is wicked.

You are not looking for "profit" of course, but to think that we can predict anything about tomorrow, or where we should make plans to go is just "boasting." And all such boasting is wicked.

(James 5:3-8) . . .What you have stored up will be like a fire in the last days. . . . 7 Be patient then, brothers, until the presence of the Lord. Look! The farmer keeps waiting for the precious fruit of the earth, exercising patience over it until the early rain and the late rain arrive. 8 You too exercise patience; make your hearts firm, because the presence of the Lord has drawn close.

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On 5/9/2020 at 1:37 PM, Kosonen said:

5. You have to stop going to court against individuals or organizations etc on copyright issues. (1 Corinthians 6:1-8)

This is an opinion of yours. I would also prefer that the WTS not go after anyone on copyright issues as it makes them appear to be a part of the world in looking out for their own interests rather than just turning the other cheek. After all, the good news can get promoted even if the person is not promoting it for a good purpose

(Philippians 1:15-18) 15 True, some are preaching the Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. 16 The latter are proclaiming the Christ out of love, for they know that I have been appointed to defend the good news; 17 but the former do it out of contentiousness, not with a pure motive, for they are intending to create trouble for me in my prison bonds. 18 With what result? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is being proclaimed, and I rejoice over this.. . .

But the idea of defending the good news can also make use of the "superior authorities." Paul used his Roman citizenship. By extension, copyright laws are another legal means of protecting the "context" of some teachings, which can be important when so many are happy to create fake news and rip things out of context. Therefore in the same chapter as above Paul points to the idea of "legally establishing" the good news.

(Philippians 1:7) . . .and in the defending and legally establishing of the good news.

 

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On 5/9/2020 at 1:37 PM, Kosonen said:

6. You have to stop disfellowshipping brothers and sisters based on not agreeing with the WT organization's false teachings.

You already know that this is not done on purpose. It is done because the WT believes those teachings worth disfellowshipping over are both true and important. While there may be false or at least questionable teachings, the persons doing the disfellowshipping are sure they are performing a sacred service, rooting out apostates, etc.

On 5/9/2020 at 1:37 PM, Kosonen said:

7. You must reinstate all brothers and sisters that have been disfellowshipped on false grounds and give a sincere apology and somehow make up for the wrong committed against them. 

A corollary to #6.

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10 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

You already know that this is not done on purpose. It is done because the WT believes those teachings worth disfellowshipping over are both true and important.

JWI, these two sentences seem to be contradictory.  If disfellowshipping (judging, "killing" a servant of Christ) an individual is based on WT's "true and important" teachings being rejected (that turn out not to be true and important), then it is done on purpose. 

"Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother’s were righteous."  1 John 3:12

“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."  Matt 7:1,2

 

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On 5/9/2020 at 1:37 PM, Kosonen said:

8. And when someone is reproved or disfellowshipped, the committed sin must be made known to the congregation. (1 Timothy 5:20; Matthew 3:5; Mark 1:5; James 5:16; 1 Corinthians 5:1)

Usually a good idea. And always a good idea in principle. But we don't need to make a law out of every principle, or we would be just like the Pharisees.

Imagine a case of incestuous rape in a culture where the rape victim will not likely ever be hired for a job, or will not be considered as a potential marriage partner, etc.

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3 minutes ago, Witness said:

JWI, these two sentences seem to be contradictory.  If disfellowshipping (judging, "killing" a servant of Christ) an individual is based on WT's "true and important" teachings being rejected (that turn out not to be true and important), then it is done on purpose.

That's a stretch of logic. No one is saying that all DFs are done correctly, but you can't say that a mistake is done on purpose just because it turned out to be wrong. A teacher can mark a student wrong for spelling potato as potatoe, but that doesn't mean the teacher made the mistake on purpose. Disfellowshipping is not "killing." That's just another mistake, too. Jehovah sees the heart no matter what mistakes are made on earth.

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On 5/9/2020 at 1:37 PM, Kosonen said:

9. You have to understand and believe and teach about the flight the woman in Revelation 12 is to undertake.

You mentioned this in #4 above.

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On 5/9/2020 at 1:37 PM, Kosonen said:

10. You have to understand and believe and teach that Ezekiel 38 speaks about a literal place where God's people will be gathered and live in security literally and that Gog from Magog together with his armies will come to plunder God's people's literal cattle, gold, silver and property and that it will consist of a literal great wealth. 

This is apparently just another reference to the "flight of the woman" based on other things you've said elsewhere. James 4 & 5 seem to be especially appropriate now that you have added wealth into the mix.

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1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

You already know that this is not done on purpose. It is done because the WT believes those teachings worth disfellowshipping over are both true and important. While there may be false or at least questionable teachings, the personz doing the disfellowshipping are sure they are performing a sacred service, rooting out apostates, etc.

 

47 minutes ago, Witness said:

JWI, these two sentences seem to be contradictory.  If disfellowshipping (judging, "killing" a servant of Christ) an individual is based on WT's "true and important" teachings being rejected (that turn out not to be true and important), then it is done on purpose. 

 

40 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

That's a stretch of logic. No one is saying that all DFs are done correctly, but you can't say that a mistake is done on purpose just because it turned out to be wrong. A teacher can mark a student wrong for spelling potato as potatoe, but that doesn't mean the teacher made the mistake on purpose. Disfellowshipping is not "killing." That's just another mistake, too. Jehovah sees the heart no matter what mistakes are made on earth.

JW's Judicial Committees is formed after elders came to knowledge about some wrongs that was done inside congregations. We making focus here on "doctrinal wrongs" made by members. In this logic every Committee have purpose and they gathered for one purpose. To correct  member or to exclude him.

JC working by The Book. These are: Bible, WT publications, internal Letters and Manuals and are powered with elders experience and motivations and outside influence coming from other prominent persons. 

JW's who lived in period when, for example, human organ transplantation had been considered as "sin" against Bible and God and "deserved" disfellowshipping of "wrongdoers", that would mean, from their (elders of those time) standpoint and view, how JC made "justified decision" in "given frames".

But, spiritual and doctrinal "frames" are relative. It had been relative in the past, and they are relative today too. Because of enough experience about this, JW elders who serve in JC must be wiser and more discreet. And if they must dfd somebody let that be for really rudimentary, basic things and not about "quarrels over words and customs" aka about things, doctrines that no one not know for sure, but all only speculate how something maybe looks like.

Should we judge and blame elders who acted according to false knowledge, err instructions and deceived "sound mind"? We can do that. Because they put their trust in other human, WT Top Management aka Directors later called GB and not JHVH and Jesus as they claimed and taught members from stage.  

On other hand ...., Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be[

    Hello guest!
] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[
    Hello guest!
]
 loosed in heaven." ..... also sounds very stretched just as a idea that elders are appointed by holy spirit. 

Nevertheless, we still have what Jehovah’s Word says about proper conduct and how matters should be decided. We can, in effect, determine what has already been decided on a matter in the heavens. Admittedly, due to human imperfections, mistakes in judgment are made at times, but this only emphasizes even more the need to adhere closely to the instructions in Jehovah’s Word in handling matters so as to be assured that what is decided is what has already been decided in heaven. - 

    Hello guest!

According to this, if WT elders, who acted in all past period of time and who acting today, under temporary "given frames" knew/know what was already been decided on a matter in the heavens because they have guidance of holy spirit than our discussion will be useful to only few who is in dilemma about elder's decision making process. :))

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5 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Should we judge and blame elders who acted according to false knowledge, err instructions and deceived "sound mind"? We can do that. Because they put their trust in other human, WT Top Management aka Directors later called GB and not JHVH and Jesus as they claimed and taught members from stage.

To the extent that they were not convinced in their own mind, then yes, they were potentially going against their own conscience.

But in their Bible-based training, how many elders actually question the blood doctrine, for example, as if it is man-made? I think that almost all elders are convinced in their own mind that this comes directly from Jehovah because it's found in Acts 15 & 21. If someone were to tell an elder that organ transplants were no different than blood transfusions because you can never get rid of every bit of the whole blood in a muscle or organ then it would be just as easy to convince the elders on these grounds, too.

But I agree that elders have acted on "knowledge" that seemed true at the time, but turned out to be "false knowledge." And there is too much reliance on the "probability" that heaven has already agreed with the GB about those things elders will judge. The idea that Jesus gave about things bound or loosed in heaven does seem to be an acceptance that the Christian congregation will need to make decisions requiring some to have authority over others. Like telling a person that he must make changes before he is welcome back in a congregation that meets in someone's home, or telling the same person that he can meet with Christians at the "synagogue" in town, but that others will be asked not to voluntarily interact with him until he makes those changes. This will require "authority" of some over others. And what if that authority must be exercised over a fellow elder?

(1 Timothy 5:19-21) . . .Do not accept an accusation against an older man except on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 20 Reprove before all onlookers those who practice sin, as a warning to the rest. 21 I solemnly charge you before God and Christ Jesus and the chosen angels to observe these instructions without any prejudice or partiality.

Jesus is saying that some can be chosen to have such rights over others, which implies organizational authority. (Selecting elders, who act as "older men" acted in OT times, as judges.) But Jesus is also saying that his invisible presence with them will be available. This assumes a prayerful, humble attitude that treats the words of Jesus and the "mind of Christ" as if he were physically present.

This will keep such judgements from becoming too arbitrary, or based on false knowledge that is only correct for a specific time frame and then becomes obsolete. Those particular "short-lived" ideas appear to have been started by individuals in the organization who were given their position due to charisma, bombastic personalities, or the appearance of great individual wisdom. No one would dare go against them. It was not a case of two or three gathered in Jesus' name, but a personality cult around a single person. Rutherford recognized the personality cult around Russell, but very few bothered to point out the personality cult around Rutherford and F.W.Franz. If these men had been humble enough to consult with others over their biggest decisions, there would have been fewer of these "frames" you mentioned. But this is the "bane" of every organization. Paul spoke of the same to the Corinthians, who wanted to follow their special superfine apostles. Men from James seemed to have been too willing to take the side of James on an important issue, so Paul spoke to the Galatians about how they were accepting improper authority from these so-called "pillars of Jerusalem" even though these pillars never imparted anything new to Paul himself.

A well-balanced Governing Body of experienced older men can serve the congregations very well, and there SHOULD be a lot of trust in what they decide is important. When it comes to imitating their judgements, we should follow their lead depending on how well their conduct turns out. (Their "conduct" would include how their past judgments have turned out, including those temporary "frames.".) But there are limits, as you pointed out. We carry our own load, and stand on our own before the judgement seat of God. Elders have their own responsibility to pay attention to their teachings. They could harm the flock because the flock expects to be able to follow.

(1 Timothy 4:15, 16) . . .. 16 Pay constant attention to yourself and to your teaching. Persevere in these things, for by doing this you will save both yourself and those who listen to you.

(Hebrews 13:17) . . .Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over you as those who will render an account, so that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to you.

 

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On 5/15/2020 at 8:23 AM, JW Insider said:

Disfellowshipping is not "killing." That's just another mistake, too. Jehovah sees the heart no matter what mistakes are made on earth.

I know you’ve read the WT’s early teaching (1947) preaching against excommunication/disfellowshipping.

“Are You Excommunicated?”

Excerpt in regard to the Catholic Church and it practice of excommunication:

“This means that you are looked upon with the blackest contempt by the Vatican, being cursed and damned with the Devil and his angels.”

Watchtower today, who practice the same doctrine:

"Like Satan, human apostates are unruly men who cook up wicked reasonings and season their brew with poisonous lies that deceive minds.”

The mark of disfellowshipping is the same as excommunication.  It judges an individual as deserving (being “damned”) of death.  JWs believe there is no promise of life if one sides completely with Satan, which they feel apostates have done so.   And I guarantee you that some here believe I am one of those “human apostates” brewing up lies in Satan’s kitchen. They have personally judged me as undeserving of life.   Also, I can’t count how many times I have read of individuals disfellowshipped who feel they might as well be dead, because of the treatment given them from the organization. And if anyone has a son or daughter who has been disfellowshipped, they may grieve for the loss of their child, as if he or she has died.  This is the result of WT's strict teaching on how to treat disfellowshipped individuals.  It is a very grotesque practice, just as the early WT pointed out.  

There is no possibility of eternal life without God.  Thus, your brochure bearing the title, “Return to Jehovah” signifies that those disfellowshipped, even shunned ones, are considered spiritually “dead”.  When the elders disfellowship an individual for whatever reason, they have marked them as undeserving of eternal life.  They have spiritually “killed” them by their judgment of disfellowshipping.  Rev 13:15

I wonder how an organization can go from saying this about excommunication…

the weapon of excommunication became the instrument by which the clergy obtained a combination of ecclesiastical power and secular tyranny that finds no parallel in history”

To this, about an identical practice enforced by a “clergy”/elder body/GB…

mwb 19 March 9 - “How can it be said that disfellowshipping is a loving provision when it causes so much pain?”

Well, with such sadistic undertones, the WT has outdone the Catholic Church. Disfellowshipping is indeed the instrument used to maintain "ecclesiastical" power over primarily, the anointed of God, and all.  Rev 13:7

What is also very hypocritical is this:

“Shepherd the Flock of God”, April, 2020

Apostasy -

Deliberately Spreading Teachings Contrary to Bible Truth: (2 John 7, 9, 10; lvs p. 245; it-1 pp. 126-127) Any with sincere doubts regarding the Bible truth taught by Jehovah’s Witnesses should be helped. Loving assistance should be provided. (2 Tim. 2:16-19, 23-26; Jude 22, 23) If one obstinately is speaking about or deliberately spreading false teachings, this may be or may lead to apostasy. If there is no response after a first and a second admonition, a judicial committee should be formed.—Titus 3:10, 11; w86 4/1 pp. 30-31

“Spreading teachings contrary to Bible Truth”

This is “truth” taught by Jehovah’s Witnesses

Only a small percentage  of Watchtower’s “truth” is Bible Truth.  It is made up of “adjustments”, and “beliefs clarified”.  These are not Bible truths. 

The obstinate one speaks against this “truth”.  Yet, this one, is “spreading false teachings”, which is equated to apostasy and cooking up lies in Satan’s kitchen.  The obstinate one brings WT’s false teachings and failed doctrine to the table, just as Jesus brought up the Pharisees lies.  Unless this questioning one stops questioning, and obeys the GB, he or she is disfellowshipped.

Who really is…the apostate?

 

 

 

    Hello guest!

 

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, JW Insider said:

When it comes to imitating their judgements, we should follow their lead depending on how well their conduct turns out. (Their "conduct" would include how their past judgments have turned out, including those temporary "frames.".)

The time test is one way things are revealed. Inside years and decades when other following their conduct and imitate their decisions, many are affected with things that much later will be found as wrong.

But that is the price we all pays no matter what it is about.

7 hours ago, JW Insider said:

To the extent that they were not convinced in their own mind, then yes, they were potentially going against their own conscience.

Exceptional mental effort is required to constantly re-examine one's own and others' opinions, ideas, beliefs, rules, doctrines. That is hard to achieve and I think we rarely succeed in that. And we need more time. That is why we have success only at periodic intervals. :))

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Exceptional mental effort is required to constantly re-examine one's own and others' opinions, ideas, beliefs, rules, doctrines. That is hard to achieve and I think we rarely succeed in that. And we need more time. That is why we have success only at periodic intervals. :))

This is so true. In fact I do not examine myself so much now as i know I will only find excuses for my reasonings.. 

The one thing I've come to know is that i do not know the 'truth' about anything. Everything is just opinions and even scripture can be interpreted in many different ways. This forum gives proof to that point. 

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8 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Exceptional mental effort is required to constantly re-examine one's own and others' opinions, ideas, beliefs, rules, doctrines. That is hard to achieve and I think we rarely succeed in that. 

 I don't think the average JW practices this at all.  It is too easy to accept every morsel of spiritual food from the GB as truth.  

 

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13 hours ago, Witness said:

Apostasy -

Deliberately Spreading Teachings Contrary to Bible Truth: (2 John 7, 9, 10; lvs p. 245; it-1 pp. 126-127) Any with sincere doubts regarding the Bible truth taught by Jehovah’s Witnesses should be helped.

The 2015 version of the "Flock" book reads, "Bible truth AS taught by Jehovah's Witnesses", which gives flexibility to "truth" at any given time, according to GB's present doctrine.  Perhaps the reason for dropping "as", could be that it was a point of valid argument, held by potential "apostates".

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