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My latest letter to WT demanding correction from their side


Kosonen
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On 5/15/2020 at 3:29 PM, JW Insider said:

Possible dishonor to his Father resulting from Jesus’ being condemned for blasphemy was a matter of concern to God’s Son. Jesus asked Jehovah to spare him such indignity. “Remove this cup from me,” he prayed. But Jesus submitted to God’s will. (Mar

WT organization is so obsessed with reputation. Once more a prof of that. I don't think people would be so conserned about reputation before becoming subjects to torture. 

Only if somebody thinks to be a perfect human is to be something else. I think the WT writers think deep inside that for Jesus the physical pain was a minor thing, because they think a perfect human can quite easily endure physical pain. 

I don't think that is true. Seems to be to the contrary, because he sweated sweat and blood before he was captured and prayed with tears. His body wanted to escape but his mind told him that he should stay and get caught and suffer.

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Jan Kosonen, @Kosonen In several places online, you have seen fit to provide your name, your email address, and much of your personal history. But you have also provided an "audit trail" of failed time-based interpretations and predictions. I began to point this out before and you do not appear back away from this history. Instead you continue to present yourself as an anointed person who actually wants to be seen as a modern day prophet. I began to write a paraphrase of your letter as

To the extent that they were not convinced in their own mind, then yes, they were potentially going against their own conscience. But in their Bible-based training, how many elders actually question the blood doctrine, for example, as if it is man-made? I think that almost all elders are convinced in their own mind that this comes directly from Jehovah because it's found in Acts 15 & 21. If someone were to tell an elder that organ transplants were no different than blood transfusions be

That's a stretch of logic. No one is saying that all DFs are done correctly, but you can't say that a mistake is done on purpose just because it turned out to be wrong. A teacher can mark a student wrong for spelling potato as potatoe, but that doesn't mean the teacher made the mistake on purpose. Disfellowshipping is not "killing." That's just another mistake, too. Jehovah sees the heart no matter what mistakes are made on earth.

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On 5/15/2020 at 6:30 AM, Arauna said:

criticize the translation of the lord's prayer? Jesus himself taught his followers to pray for the 'sanctification' of Jehovah's name.... 

No, that is not the question. Jesus loved his Father and wishes that we love Jehovah God and that we wish that his Father would be sanctified. We should absolutely be very interested about that. That should be our primary consern if we love God before everything else.

But the question is how conserned is Jehovah God himself about that? 

A perfect relation between to parts, would it not be that both are primarly interested of the other part?

I mean that Jehovah is ready to do what ever is needed for our salvaton and we do what ever is needed from our part to accomplish God's wonderful purposes.

There is a simple principle that it is not good to seek one's own glory. 

That naturally has to be how God sees himself too. 

 

 

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On 5/15/2020 at 12:58 AM, JW Insider said:

this first point, you say that the sanctification of Jehovah God is not the most important thing. I agree, but don't see it as such a big deal. 

It could be a big deal, especially if you are hardly pressed in a tribulation of some kind and wonder why am I serving God after all? In a such difficult situation it could be of real comfort to know that Jehovah really loves us. That he is not primarly interested about his own reputation, but about our salvation.

In the contrary case we could get incorrect thoughts about Him that would weaken our determination to continue to do his will. And that would not be either good for ourselves.

Before  I came to this more accurate understanding I got disturbing thoughts that Jehovah God just does everything for his own sake, for his own glory and sanctification. Yes, that He lets people suffer to sanctify Himself and that he sent Jesus to suffer to earth just to sanctify Himself. It looked to me that God just uses his servants to sanctify himself and lets them suffer for his own ego.

This thought learned at the WT organization really raised doubts in my mind about the trueness of God's love. Just a few months ago I have got rid of such doubts about God's love. I have prayed to Jehovah God to think correctly and in the process I have had to discard this central teaching of the WT organization.

Now instead of thinking that the sufferings mankind experience is due to God's primary focus on his own sanctification, I have an other more correct understanding of why God has allowed sufferings to exist.

And that is simply because there was and is no other better way to save the mankind.

Mankind had evolved to the better through sufferings. They have just been necessary for our own individual and collective developement.

 

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On 5/9/2020 at 7:37 PM, Kosonen said:

Before punishing, God sends his messengers to expose the fault. And if the advice is ignored, then there is left only one option, a punishment

There is a interesting scripture I once again checked up that could apply to this. Take a look:

Zechariah 11:7  And I began to shepherd the flock meant for slaughter, in your behalf, O afflicted ones of the flock. So I took two staffs, and I called one Pleasantness, and the other Union, and I began to shepherd the flock. 8  And I dismissed three shepherds in one month, for I became impatient with them, and they detested me as well. 9  And I said: “I will not keep shepherding you. Let the one who is dying die, and let the one perishing perish. As for those who are left, let them devour one another’s flesh.” 10  So I took my staff Pleasantness and cut it up, breaking my covenant that I had made with all the peoples. 11  So it was broken in that day, and the afflicted ones of the flock who were watching me knew that it was the word of Jehovah.

Let's see what will happen. 

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Quote "There is a simple principle that it is not good to seek one's own glory. "

However, to balance up the above thoughts :- God's words through Moses at Exodus 9 v 16

16 "  But for this very reason I have kept you in existence: to show you my power and to have my name declared in all the earth "

Repeated by the Apostle Paul at Romans 9 v 17

For the scripture says to Pharʹaoh: “For this very reason I have let you remain: to show my power in connection with you and to have my name declared in all the earth.”

Note the subtle difference (highlighted in red) in the two scriptures, as the first was directed to Pharaoh, but the second was directed to the Anointed ones here on this Earth. Both however were to show God's power. Not exactly seeking HIS own glory, but more to proving a point.  

(Strange how scripture refs are so similar)

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5 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

For the scripture says to Pharʹaoh: “For this very reason I have let you remain: to show my power in connection with you and to have my name declared in all the earth.”

 

5 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Note the subtle difference (highlighted in red) in the two scriptures, as the first was directed to Pharaoh, but the second was directed to the Anointed ones here on this Earth.

Not exactly different in the way you imply. Although you are definitely right that the meaning is different. Paul quoted from the LXX translation, which may or may not be more accurate than more modern Hebrew manuscripts of Exodus. The NLT (New Living Translation) has a footnote that explains it. It's really just the difference in saying I will show my power "to you" or show my power "in you." The difference can be made by changing only one letter in Hebrew.

(Exodus 9:16, NLT) But I have spared you for a purpose—to show you my power[fn] and to spread my fame throughout the earth.

The footnote says the following:

9:16 Greek version reads to display my power in you; compare Rom 9:17.

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5 hours ago, Kosonen said:

Before  I came to this more accurate understanding I got disturbing thoughts that Jehovah God just does everything for his own sake, for his own glory and sanctification. Yes, that He lets people suffer to sanctify Himself and that he sent Jesus to suffer to earth just to sanctify Himself. It looked to me that God just uses his servants to sanctify himself and lets them suffer for his own ego.

Frankly, this is a rationale and line of thinking I would expect Satan the Devil to accuse God of. There can be no question that Jehovah is a loving God who is interested in the welfare of his creation. After all, look what he has done and provided for us - including his own son. He didn't owe us anything. As sinners, all of us were already under the sentence of death. It was an underserved kindness and gracious gift from God that any of us could have a salvation we could never merit/achieve on our own. They idea of Jehovah's name being sanctified and made holy has much broader implications than your assertion of "egotism" suggests. An illustration: Let's say, you have all your money - the money you hope to retire on as well as the inheritance for your children tied up in a bank. Like many people you may want to invest that money with a financial advisor. You hear the guy is the best guy to invest with, but also hear some disturbing accusations: that he is a liar; that he has stolen the life savings of others and is even a money-launderer for the mob and has to go to court to face those accusations. Would you hand him all your money? Not unless you had an intimate knowledge of the man and knew all the facts. But most people would have questions and likely not put their trust in that advisor until the court action was settled. Until the verdict was established for all to see as to whether the charges are true or not. Whether his reputation can stand scrutiny. Once it is established that all the accusations are slanderous lies, you would feel comfortable investing then and only then, wouldn't you? 

In a similar way, there are many beautiful blessings Jehovah has in store for all creation in harmony with his purpose for them. But Satan has raised some troubling accusations. That God is a liar who can't be trusted. That he withholds good things from his children and later, that humans don't need him and would do better on their own, that he is a cruel God that tortures people forever in hellfire... Added to the facts is that some of those closest to him have also turned against him including perfect men and angels. So who would want to serve a sovereign with those accusations in place, even if the promises for the future were wonderful? Promises wouldn't be so wonderful if he couldn't carry them out or he was a liar as charged. These issues have universal and everlasting implications. So it shouldn't be so hard to accept that the sanctification of Jehovah's name is necessary for everything else to take place. All good things we can benefit from, hinge on our love and trust in him. That we recognize that he knows what is best for us and has the right to decide, on a universal level, for all eternity, to make those decisions. Not only because he is the creator. Not only because he has shown his love for us at great cost to himself. But also because of who he is as a person. Those types of issues simply don't go away and can't be solved only by man's salvation. Spirit creatures are involved too. His reputation is intrinsically linked to his will and good purposes in behalf of mankind and yes, all living creatures - even those dead in the ground. Selfishly thinking that we are most important is the way a baby thinks, not a mature spiritual man. However, trusting that Jehovah as a loving father will do anything and become anything that is necessary to rescue his children from certain death is tied up with who we believe he is - his reputation. Hence, the sanctification of his name is of such importance as Jesus himself showed in his model prayer. It's not a question of "either-or." One is directly related to the other.

 

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31 minutes ago, b4ucuhear said:

Frankly, this is a rationale and line of thinking I would expect Satan the Devil to accuse God of.

So right!  It is the same as people that call Jehovah a dictator because he desires exclusive devotion and obedience. 

But I can give the answer to that and Mr Kosonen will again ignore what I say and go on with his theories.  So if he is really interested in the logical and the truthful answer, I want to give him a project to think about:  what is needed for all people on earth to be united and live in harmony and peace!

Please write down a list of things you think will be needed to bring this about...... then we can talk further.  Let the philosopher or prophet in Mr Kosonen come out!

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On 5/17/2020 at 4:02 AM, Kosonen said:

Could it just be that you are too scared to be wrong? And that's maybe why you avoid even the thought that those prophecies could concern our time?

Even prophecies that were already fulfilled reflect principles that concern our time. Those principles are about Jehovah's ability to protect and save his people. They are about trust in Jehovah, and trust in his ultimate power over his enemies, over other governments, and his trust in Christ Jesus to accomplish his purpose through the Kingdom. The time elements were concerned with the original prophecy, but still provide lessons for our time. They show that Jehovah has a timetable, and that no matter how impatient we humans become, we can trust that time and history are still in Jehovah's jurisdiction, not our own.

So it's not that I am "scared to be wrong" but scared to call Jesus a liar. Jesus said the times and seasons were none of our business. He said that the end would come as a surprise this time, even if in times past Jehovah had declared his doings in advance to his servants the prophets. But even with this idea that Jehovah will always declare his purposes in advance, he did not promise to give the time element.

Also, even if some time elements were used in Revelation that SEEM to refer to a future time period prior to the END, this doesn't mean that Jesus was wrong. They could have been used as time elements referring to things that already happened in the past, even in the first century. And they also could be symbols that pointed the reader back to the original scriptural context, just like mentioning a past Bible character like Moses or Elijah. The 1,260 days in Revelation 12 might be an excellent example of this:

In Revelation 12, for example, I think it can refer (initially) to the fact that Christ's Kingdom came out of Israel. Israel had been protected up to this point to produce the promised seed. Israel had been pictured as God's woman several times, and had even been pictured as the sun, moon and 12 stars (Genesis 37:9), alluding to a part of the Bible that introduces how Jehovah kept Israel protected even when in Egypt without a land of its own. Israel is and was protected from God's enemies for the purpose of looking forward to the birth of this Kingdom. So the reference to 1,260 is a reference to Jehovah's ability to provide and protect this Kingdom through the ages, just as he protected it from attack by Satan when Jesus was born, when Jewish enemies of Jesus wanted to get rid of him, when Roman authorities killed him, when both parties continued to try to silence the apostles. And Jesus even gave instructions that would save the citizens of that Kingdom from the most significant tribulation that had ever come upon the Jewish religion in 70 C.E.

So why the reference to the 1,260 days? I think it should have reminded Christians of another period of 1,260 days where a woman was protected through Jehovah's provisions. James spoke of it in his letter (as does Luke 4:25):

(James 5:17, NLT) Elijah was as human as we are, and yet when he prayed earnestly that no rain would fall, none fell for three and a half years!

(Luke 4:25) “Certainly there were many needy widows in Israel in Elijah’s time, when the heavens were closed for three and a half years, and a severe famine devastated the land.

I suspect that the original Jewish-Christians were much more familiar with the "OT" than most of us are today with even the "NT." So some of these symbols in Revelation produce a kind of mental index to the "OT" where they were already acquainted with the lessons. Readers and hearers of Revelation would know that the original spoke of a woman who was fed for 1,260 days in the midst of this famine. And they would also remember how Jehovah's prophets were also cared for during the famine.

The "lesson" of the 1,260 is already there as a reference to the original context. I'm not sure that it is all that important that Jesus ministry could have also been about 1,260 days. Or that from the time the Jewish-Christians should have left Jerusalem to the time Jerusalem was destroyed was also a period of about 1,260 days. The real lesson was the protection that the "New Israel" or "New Jerusalem" would expect in spite of the fear of extinction by persecution, for example. And this lesson had already been proven in the resurrection of Jesus in spite of Satan's attack. Or the survival of Jesus in spite of Herod's (Satan-inspired) attack. Or the survival of the Jewish-Christian congregation in spite of the Roman attack on Jerusalem.

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4 hours ago, Arauna said:

because he desires exclusive devotion and obedience. 

Yes, that is just fine. Because he has done so much good for us and will continue to do because he loves us. Otherwise we would be unthankful. And that's not right.

Love should be returned with love.

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4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Jesus said the times and seasons were none of our business.

Yes, he said that to his disciples  about 2000 years ago. It was a apropriate thing to say because they were so far away from the end time we live in. It would not had any significance for them to explain the 1260 days. But now it is a completely different situation because we are so close to the beginning of the 1260 days. And Jesus only said we would not know the day or hour. But he did not say year or decade, so it leaves room for  that. 

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