....and like Forest Gump said "... and that's all I am going to say about that."

[Anna]

I suppose this can be a lesson for all of us, especially the likes of John Butler (pity he isn't around anymore). As an experiment, I try to think of someone I know well and am really close to. They have always been a loyal friend, always there for me. Then I imagine another adult person I know, tell me my friend did something bad to them when they were a child. How would you feel?
It's easy for us to judge elders for mishandling matters and say why didn't they do this or that. Sometimes it must be so difficult to comprehend the whole situation, especially if we know the person well and he is a "really nice guy". It's someones word against an other's, because of course there are rarely any witnesses. It must be especially difficult when it is an adult survivor that comes forward years later, a long time after the alleged crime . Who do you believe? Surely those must be repressed memories that are somehow skewed. They must have misunderstood, got it all wrong. Surely brother "really nice guy" wouldn't do anything like that!
The fact is, people who do these things usually ARE "really nice people".
A lot of different factors come into play when an accusation is made against someone, including not wanting to be wrong. What if the brother IS actually innocent, and we drag his life through the mud? He has a wife and children, and is that really nice guy.
It's easy for us, behind our computer screens, to shout; hang him!

But what are we doing now? I don't see anyone shouting hang JTR. No, we are all sad over the situation. But we know he has done these things because he has been convicted, there must have been proof. Now imagine there is no proof. Just an accusation, and not against a person on a forum (whom we don't really know) but against someone we know personally, someone who is a "really nice guy".....now try and handle that.

[TrueTomHarley]

25 minutes ago, Anna said:

But we know he has done these things because he has been convicted, there must have been proof.

Did I read the report wrong? Bond has been posted. Lock-up was “pre-trial.” I don’t believe he has been.

[JW Insider]

28 minutes ago, Anna said:

But we know he has done these things because he has been convicted, there must have been proof.

There may very well be proof. But his trial was to start today.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

We are going off topic here but :-

To quote @Anna because of course there are rarely any witnesses.  I love it when someone says this. It blows the Two Witness Rule clean out of the water. 

Quote Anna.  "Now imagine there is no proof. Just an accusation, and not against a person on a forum (whom we don't really know) but against someone we know personally, someone who is a "really nice guy".....now try and handle that."

Well you've heard me say that i don't trust anyone. By that I mean any human. 

I would like to comment more on this but i think it should be a separate topic due to circumstances. 

JTR can still make his peace with Almighty God through Christ. 

 

[JW Insider]

56 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Did I read the report wrong? Bond has been posted. Lock-up was “pre-trial.” I don’t believe he has been.

That's how I read it too. I hadn't seen your post until after I posted and came back. I realize that I also said a court appearance was to be today. I should have said yesterday, but it hadn't made the newspaper ( gastongazette.com/news/courts ) yet, so I had a note to check again today.

[Anna]

4 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

because of course there are rarely any witnesses.  I love it when someone says this. It blows the Two Witness Rule clean out of the water. 

How does it do that?

[Anna]

Yes, sorry, correction, it was pre-trial. 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

@Anna @Anna Your comment of 13 hours ago was talking about CSA ( it wasn't about JTR ) and you said because of course there are rarely any witnesses.  But the CCJW have always demanded two witnesses to CSA, which of course was not possible, and that is why they dismisses so many cases as lies. By dismissing so many cases it makes it look as if there was less CSA in the CCJW than there really was. 

You also subtly brought out the point of the buddy buddy situation amongst Elders, protecting each other. 

Quote " It's easy for us to judge elders for mishandling matters and say why didn't they do this or that. Sometimes it must be so difficult to comprehend the whole situation, especially if we know the person well and he is a "really nice guy". 

As for this next bit I don't really understand. Quote :

I suppose this can be a lesson for all of us, especially the likes of John Butler 

What lesson does this teach anyone and why John Butler ?  Thank you.

[Ann O'Maly]

Tom's right. He has been arrested, charged, and released on bail pending trial.

The nature of his felony charges is to do with child pornography.

I've been chatting with someone who knew him and his family personally. I'm not going to discuss details but I will say that, based on what this person claims s/he witnessed, JTR exhibited certain 'red flag' behaviors.

[Anna]

4 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

you said because of course there are rarely any witnesses.  But the CCJW have always demanded two witnesses

I don't think you understood my comment. In context I said that usually it's one person's word against anothers, because rarely are there any witnesses, the point was: so who do you believe? Lack of witnesses creates a dilemma and fear of accusing someone wrongly. It's like if someone came forward and told the elders that 6 years ago you touched them inappropriately. There is no proof whether your denial is true, or whether their acusation is false.

The two witness rule is as good as "innocent until proved guilty". It is an aid to establishing guilt beyond all reasonable doubt.

Of course as has been mentioned many times, the two witness rule plays no role in whether someone goes to the authoroties or not. It is only for the congregation and for the handling of the sin aspect of the crime, not the crime itself.

4 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

But the CCJW have always demanded two witnesses to CSA,

Not just CSA, but any accusation, to do with anything.

4 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

You also subtly brought out the point of the buddy buddy situation amongst Elders, protecting each other. 

I brought out the point that as per this example we have with JTR, (whom we "know") we can perhaps understand a little how difficult it is to condemn people we know. It's easy to "righteously judge" a situation we only know of from our computer screens or the news etc. 

Which brings me to John Buttler who seemed to do just that. And the lesson is as mentioned above ☝️ Don't judge if you don't know the facts.

[Srecko Sostar]

3 minutes ago, Anna said:

Of course as has been mentioned many times, the two witness rule plays no role in whether someone goes to the authoroties or not. It is only for the congregation and for the handling of the sin aspect of the crime, not the crime itself.

Just for the sake of discussion.

If there is no confession of the defendant and if there are no two witnesses for a crime (not a sin) before the Court and if the Court convicts a JW member with prison time sentence, the question is: Can and on what basis a convicted JW member remain a member of the organization? May and on what basis be a Judicial Committee formed to discuss a convicted brother? Will he be expelled during his imprisonment or will JC summon him for questioning after serving his sentence? And similar. Perhaps you know some real life situations?

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

@Anna I think enough facts have been proven Earthwide against the GB and the CCJW / Watchtower. 

The Two Witness Rule was used as an excuse not to believe Children when they reported CSA to parents and / or Elders. 

I haven't judged JTR and I won't, but everyone has to keep an open mind about everyone else. There are no 'really nice guys or gals'. We are all sinners. Hence I trust no one. The scripture is "Continue putting up with one another.. "  but it doesn't say trust. 

Quote Anna (regarding the Two Witness Rule ) "Not just CSA, but any accusation, to do with anything." 

As I understand it, Brothers and Sisters that have spent the night in the same building together have been accused of sexual misconduct BUT without any witnesses.. I'm sure there was a topic on that. 

All off topic and i hope JTR gets judged fairly and honestly.