Furuli's new e-book: "My Beloved Religion - And The Governing Body"

[TrueTomHarley]

29 minutes ago, Anna said:

As for the Kingdom being a condition in the heart of an individual only,

Did she say that? Next thing it will be all roads leading to heaven. Has she gone back to the trinity yet?

I suppose I should go back and read through it, but since 90% of what she posts is of how the Great 8 have run her off the road and consigned her to Facebook, I’m just not up to it. 

[Witness]

1 hour ago, Anna said:

it seems unbelievable to me too, but don't the scriptures warn that in the final test after the thousand years many will turn? Or do you think that's a missaplied scripture?

When we look at Rev 20:7-10, it shows that Satan uses deceit to surround the "camp" of God's holy people/saints.  

In Rev 13 it also says that the two Beasts (Gog and Magog) use deceit through the power given them by Satan, to come against the saints. (Rev 13:5-7,14)

In Rev 16:13-16, it mentions Jesus' "kings of the earth" (Rev 1:5) being deceived by the two beasts and Satan.  They use blasphemy and deceit to take down those anointed in Christ.  

We're getting a painted picture using various colors, of what occurs once Satan is released from the "abyss".  

Sidepoint - if the locust of Rev 9:3 are God's anointed as the WT still insists, why would both Satan AND God's anointed come out of the "abyss" - the place of "not perceiving"?  (Rev 20:3)  One with apparent "good" intentions bearing a stinging message, and one with "evil" intentions to destroy through DECEIT?

[JW Insider]

2 hours ago, Witness said:

I doubt my comment is welcome. . . but JWI, if you believe Jesus began reigning in the first century, then why would his “kingdom of the son of his love” (Col 1:13) not be his kingdom of a thousand years? (Ps 110:1,2; 1 Cor 15:25)

It's not unwelcome at all. I think that most of us have seen this idea in service and and in commentaries. And most of us have probably considered it (and dismissed it). It is such a big break from a "workable" understanding of Revelation and 1 Corinthians 15, that I dismiss it before I get very far into it. And that's because I see some potential contradictions among ALL the possibilities, but the idea that we are now in the 1,000 year reign seemed unworkable.

I'm fine with trying to work it through again since it's been so long. I don't have any time to do this today, but I'll put a few thoughts out here to at least show why I had a problem with it.

• You believe that the 1,000 year reign of Christ began at the time he began to reign in the first century. So when does it end? At the time of tribulation/judgment/resurrection? When does Jesus hand back the Kingdom to his Father? When was/is Satan cast down, and angry for a short period of time? When was/is he abyssed? Are these the same periods. When is/was he let loose from the abyss?

Yes, I believe that Jesus began to reign when he sat down at the right hand of God. 1 Cor 15:25 as much as says this. And, yes, we know from Col 1:13 that Christ already began gathering subjects to that Kingdom as soon as he was resurrected.

My problem with it is that the 1,000 years appears to be a literal time in history with a beginning and an end. Otherwise the scriptures could not say "the rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were ended." If it has a beginning and an end, then why not see it as a special, literal time period during the time of the otherwise everlasting kingdom.

(Revelation 11:15) . . .The seventh angel blew his trumpet. And there were loud voices in heaven, saying: “The kingdom of the world has become the Kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.”

I believe that this kingdom of the world did already become the Kingdom of God and Christ beginning when Jesus sat at the right hand of the throne of Majesty, at about the time of his resurrection, when "ALL authority was given him" and he could be called "King of Kings."

(1 Timothy 6:15) . . .He is the King of those who rule as kings . . .

But the biggest problem I have with claiming that we are already in the 1,000 year reign is that Jesus gave an indication that the end could come at any time, and that people could expect it, even in the first century. Paul said that the congregations could expect it at any time, even in the first century. He did not know if he or others alive at the time would live to see a "rapture" or if he or others would die first and be resurrected into the heavenly kingdom. 

What kind of "1,000 year reign" could have started around 33, when Jesus was resurrected, but then might have ended at a judgment day, perhaps only 70 years later?

Do you think that the 1,000 year reign is so symbolic that it refers to an unlimited time? If so, why does Revelation speak of the time when it is over, and why does Corinthians speak of a time when Jesus hands back the kingdom to his Father?

I know that Russell thought he was already living in the 1,000 year reign, which is why his books were called "Millennial Dawn." But he thought that the 1,000 year reign began around 1874. When this was changed, it made sense to think of the thousand years as a time to prepare for, and accept billions of resurrected persons into the new earth (including the unrighteous). Practically it makes sense. If Satan had not yet been completely destroyed, it makes sense that in the overall scheme of showing Satan the verdict of his false claim, that this "court case" is completed with Satan witnessing his own failure before meeting his final fate.

So there is a certain "practicality" to the 1,000 year reign as a special time when God through Christ takes his great power and begins ruling as king, even though he has always been king, and Christ too will be king from long before and eternally after. It becomes one of those special times when one can say in a special way:

(1 Chronicles 16:31) 31 Let the heavens rejoice, and let the earth be joyful; Declare among the nations: ‘Jehovah has become King!’

I understand that Satan could be destroyed at Armageddon and this same scenario could play out. I also know that your point of view removes the problem of the "second Armageddon" at the end of the 1,000 year reign.

But we still have this, which can produce an issue for both points of view, but I think it is harder for your point of view:

(Revelation 20:4, 5) . . .And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

[JW Insider]

2 hours ago, Anna said:

Like when "whats his name" tried to prevent the ark of the covenant from falling...

Last night my mother called and said that they just had the circuit overseer who asked a question: Which Bible character was confined to his own place for a long time?

I said, don't tell me, let me guess. Uzziah?

She said, no. But wasn't he the one who steadied the ark?

I said, no that was Uzzah. King Uzziah had to be confined at home for leprosy.

She said, well it wasn't Uzziah. It was Noah. And that the circuit overseer said that at least we don't have to be confined with a bunch of stinky animals.

And I said, "Says you!" (We have two dogs, two cats, 10 fish. I was not, repeat not, referring to any son of mine who hasn't cleaned his room in over two weeks.)

And then, I added that Noah steadied the Ark, too. He had to keep the elephants and hippos at the four corners to keep it balanced, then "steady as she goes!!"

[TrueTomHarley]

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I was not, repeat not, referring to any son of mine who hasn't cleaned his room in over two weeks.)

Did your wife come home, look at it, then look at you pecking away at the keyboard, and say, “I don’t believe this”?

[Arauna]

8 hours ago, Witness said:

Satan of the spirit realm or “heavens”, will be destroyed, so death will occur in “heaven”.  Arauna brought out a good scripture in Gen 3:15. 

I just realized that Satan and his demons (although they originally belonged to the realm of the heaven (jehovah's presence) they were allowed back into heaven  until their place was found in heaven no more.  They were disfellowshipped from heaven and thrown down to earth for the last days.  Armageddon in heaven (the cleaning up of heaven ) took place when Jesus was crowned.

Here the demons are completing their destruction of society and will soon go into the abyss.  After this they will be released for a short while after the 1000 years for their final chance to mislead those who want to follow their own desires. Their death will not occur anywhere near the presence of jehovah because jehovah hates death - even the condition of death - as is clearly brought out in the instructions of the Mosaic law. 

Just before their destruction they will be in the realm of the earth not heaven.... 

 

 

[Arauna]

7 hours ago, Anna said:

after the thousand years many will turn

The bible uses the picture "like sand of sea"  ........ this means an undeterminable amount. (Jehovah can count the sea pebbles if he can count our hair.)..... but jehovah will NOT predetermine the number of rebels because this depends on free will and personal choice.

There will be quite a number though, because (if I remember correct) they come up over the earth for war with the holy ones and will be consumed by fire.  So some form of rebellion will again take place against jehovah which will culminate in hate of his people. ...... rebellion against the "holy ones" ...... 

[JW Insider]

39 minutes ago, Arauna said:

"like sand of the sea"  ......... this means an undeterminable amount.

True. But typically a very large indeterminate amount. As it came up in the Joel/Revelation discussion in the closed club, it seems like a second Armageddon. We have come to expect that a majority of mankind could die at Armageddon. The "rivers of blood" imagery in Revelation would seem to support this. But, as always, there are other ways to understand such symbols, we just have to be careful that we are not allowing sentimentality to color our views, if the scripture is trying to give us a sense of proportion here.

But if we expect, let's say, 20 billion "unrighteous" to be resurrected, it would seem most disturbing, yet if a majority of them were to die in a second judgment at the end of 1,000 years, that's more than 10 billion. Of course, they would apparently be resurrected to what appears like a much better chance for understanding Jehovah's purpose than the current 7 to 8 billion. There can be as much as half a million grains of sand just by scooping up a large handful. More than the visible number of stars in the sky. But the grains of sand on just the seashores of Judah and Israel would still be trillions of times the number of people who have ever lived.

And then we have the question that Abraham would have asked Jehovah, about the justice of Jehovah killing a majority of people at Armageddon if they didn't have the same opportunity to know Jehovah's purpose as the majority of people who might be killed by Jehovah at the end of the 1,000 years.

It's a little less disturbing, I think, to imagine that there is only one judgment day, at Armageddon, and that this is the one where the nations are gathered. It is difficult to imagine "nations" rising up against Jehovah's and his people a second time.

I have just read Revelation 20 a couple more times and I realize something else that I might have previously dismissed too early. It's the context that immediately follows the 1,000 year discussion. Next post.

 

[Arauna]

9 hours ago, Witness said:

For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. 

Abraham knew jehovah and his name. ... and walked with Him. Most cities in those days had  a priest-king of the chief deity.  Abraham met melchisedek  a priest-king of jehovah, (directly appointed by jehovah) and paid to him tithes.  I have no doubt that jehovah helped abraham to understand that a future priest-king would rule in a city ( organised society)  in which humans would have perfection and all follow gods directions.

9 hours ago, Witness said:

Jesus will reign for a literal thousand years in peace, yet also call it a judgment period as the WT teaches.   How many judgments periods does there need to be? The Great Tribulation is already a test of magnified

When I worked in the Muslim field my appreciation for jehovah's arrangements and the administration of his purpose grew exponentially. 

It is a harsh religion and the events are all over the place - no logic at all.   In steps jehovah, who has logically thought of absolutely everything in his plans.

All people that do not serve Allah must die or are condemned to pay "jizya"  I would ask them about all the millions of people who lived before mo.h.a..m.a.d came to earth and maybe lived in China, remote areas etc ...... these people did not know Jesus, Mohammad - should they not get a chance?   I would ask them if it was just and fair for God to not give these people a chance to get to know Him.

The reasonable persons immediately saw the point. I would then read selected parts of Revelation 20. Showing that 1000 years is allocated in gods plan for these ones to be resurrected and learn about the the true God. They will learn that idolatry is wrong, adultery etc. This is a judgment day for them....... because they will receive justice and see the mercy of jehovah. God is merciful.

Judgement is NOT  condemnation...... (most people think this way),a judgment came after both sides of a case was heard and a fair chance was given  them to explain.   The  1000 years will give justice to those with a good heart condition who had never even heard of the bible, or jehovah. They will learn the language of truth and  jehovah  will give them  a chance for everlasting life. What a merciful God to give a second opportunity (after resurrection)  where the truth is taught!

Judgement day of 1000 years is a beautiful time of education and restoration! Of justice for the oppressed and ignorant.. a time when the physical earth will be restored and many people see the justice and live of jehovah for humankind.  They will then have opportunity to prove their loyalty to God ((with knowledge of the issues involved ) as perfect people.

Unfortunately, some will be like Adam and some will not appreciate the mercy given them. Children for destruction. 

 

[JW Insider]

3 minutes ago, Arauna said:

I would ask them if it was just and fair for God to not give these people a chance to get to know Him.

We have had the same problem when questioned about Armageddon, especially when we know there has been so little chance to make headway in many countries where no one has heard anything positive about JWs, if they've heard of us at all. And the jw.org site still has articles on it that go back to a time when we claimed that 99.9% of the world's population would die at Armageddon.
 

I decided to wait before I say anything more about the 1,000 years and Revelation 20. Maybe tomorrow.

[Arauna]

39 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

a time when we claimed that 99.9% of the world's population would die at Armageddon.
 

Then these people that do not like what jehovah says must have a talk with jehovah.  Noah's uncles, aunts, father and mother did NOT go in ark with him and the bible says the entire world was condemned through his obedience.  The world was so wicked and violent yet it did not bother these people - they went on with their normal lives asif nothing is wrong.

In the time of Moses, most Egyptians went on as though their God would protect them - even after the miracles coming from jehovah - they had no fear of the true God.  Some Egyptians left with the Israelites..

I hope that jehovah shows who he is in this time of end by means of us - there may be physical signs... even this lock down should make them think. But they remain asleep . Some have asked where we are. Most see the escalating wickedness , violence, child trafficking, racism, hate, acrimony, lies and do not think for a moment about God.  They keep watching their immoral shows on netflex and entertainment. and join the political hate fests..... listening to propaganda and the crowd control.

There are countries where we are not allowed and one faces a death penalty for worshipping another God....... jehovah is the great compensator.  On an individual basis he will judge these, make sure evidences of us are around.

I have spoken to large swathes of these religious people  and come to the conclusion that most PREFER these traditions.  I am convinced jehovah will give most a chance to hear about him. World events and the news are such that most are getting an opportunity to think about their lives - but DO they?  Wickedness and violence  is escalating  everywhere and yet they are not sighing over it. Their spiritual consciousness does not ask questions. Most in free countries are going with the crowd.

I hope that those who refuse the beasts machinations may join us in prison, where we will have opportunity to study with  them.

[Anna]

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

I am convinced jehovah will give most a chance to hear about him. World events and the news are such that most are getting an opportunity to think about their lives -

I find it diffcult to imagine how those poor people living in the slums of India will ever hear anything significant enough to make them change their way of life and go against the caste system, if they ever hear anything at all. There are no Witnesses in those areas and most people don't have internet access or any other means of finding any Witnesses or anything to do with us. Most probably don't know what a Bible is.

The slum population is reckoned to be over 68 million.