Furuli's new book: Is any of it right? Useful? Like Franz?

[JW Insider]

14 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

How does Rolf feel about the wild beasts—2-headed, 7-headed, scarlet colored, image of, dragon. Would he decommission them?

He says not much about most of this, except to give praise to the 1963 "Babylon" book for giving proper attention to detail, including linguistic issues, which he feels is lost in new prophetic explanations.

He also appears to be just fine with the beast explanations, assuming we can extrapolate from this one, single point below about the [seven-headed, 10-horned, scarlet-colored] wild beast, and the eighth king [who springs from the seven], and he probably, therefore, agrees with the same reasoning that ties Rev chapter 17 to Rev chapter 13 about the image of the beast, etc. Regarding the 1942 talk by Knorr, Furuli comments:

The war ended in 1945, and the wild beast, who is an eighth king
(Revelation 17:10, 11), ascended from the abyss. The prophecies that
N. H. Knorr discussed were inspired by God. When these prophecies
were fulfilled before the eyes of God's servants, it was Jehovah who
interpreted his own prophecies.

[Srecko Sostar]

38 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

3 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

I would ask all JWs this. Is there a written list of CCJW core teachings, because it seems a phrase that is being 'banded about' here ? ....Such as : No beards. Must wear a tie and jacket. 

It seems barely possible that one could have been a JW for decades and later ask such a dopey question. It may be that the entire persona is a facade.

I suppose how doctrine about FDS aka GB and "all belongings" are not part of core teachings ANY MORE. :)))

[TrueTomHarley]

Adam and Eve? Is he cool with them?

They are not very popular in the university. I am not even sure that they graduated.

[Srecko Sostar]

4 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Adam and Eve? Is he cool with them?

They are not very popular in the university. I am not even sure that they graduated.

In those time people "graduated" by picking specific sort of fruit from the tree. 

[JW Insider]

2 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

I do remember @JW Insider saying something like (and I know I will be told he didn't) 'The GB or leaders need to keep saying things to keep the congregants on their toes and keep them busy' (Not a direct quote but the idea is close enough) 

I found an old discussion where Anna had wondered about the purpose of the "overlapping generation" if one could surmise that it didn't really make full sense, to most people. I found that the closest related "hints" to these types of changes, even if they turn out not to be true, is that they keep us on the watch, and they are used to invoke urgency.

But my own guess was not about the GB particularly. I was basing it on evidence that is still with us, but mostly from past evidence from the time that the "Service Department" was treated as a separate entity from the "Writing Department" and was allowed to make unfiltered use of any points about "urgency" to make sure that it translated into more hours, more return visits, more Bible studies, more literature placements, etc. From the old "Bulletin" to the old "Informant" to the more recent "Kingdom Ministry" one could see a very strong correlation between "urgency" and "activity." I have two letters I picked up while at Bethel from the Service Department to District and Circuit Overseers that were written during 1976, and one of them refers to "continuing the good work of building up urgency" in the form of "setting congregational goals" through meetings with the elders, and "emphasizing the closeness of the end of this system." I have seen several of these letters, but only kept a couple of them. In 1976 it didn't really occur to me what was going on, but by about 1978 I had noticed that the Service Department acted almost as a totally different organization. It was a works-based organization and it was not totally aligned with the Writing Department.

The Writing Department --and 5 or 6 of the GB at breakfast "morning worship"-- were speaking a lot more about undeserved kindness, and how our works are really not counted as anything, when done in comparison to anyone else, but that works are only a by-product of our love for Jehovah and our neighbors. Any works that are accomplished for a different purpose, such as comparison to others, hope for a greater reward from Jehovah or his organization, etc., were not worthy in Jehovah's eyes. We are not rewarded for our works.

Yet the Service Department still seemed to put out information like in older days when the idea was spelled out very clearly that we were to create a 10 percent increase in subscriptions, a 15 percent increase in publishers, a 10 percent increase in this or that. It was the Service Department that had "produced" and trained the District Overseers who might preach talks like: "Stay Alive 'Til '75!" But this was a time when publishers were not as aware of some specific goals anymore, because the Circuit Overseers were beginning to set "quiet" goals with the elders, and then check to see how well the elders were helping to guide toward those goals, by checking back every six months or so.

Now, there is much less emphasis on specific service goals, and literature placements are mixed with electronic placements, anyway. There is no more need to tie goals and campaigns to the printing needs of factory facilities to estimate new inventory or reduce stacks of old excess inventory. The last few decades have eliminated almost all of the "secular" business-like methods of running a printing organization, and this allows for a wider range of ministries that we can still consider 'sacred service.' It allows for a closer alignment between the Service and Writing departments. And there is a much closer alignment now between the GB and Writing.

I have a feeling, of course, that you are waiting to pounce on something I said or perhaps mis-worded above. But I believe this has resulted in more focus on "spiritual" qualities, especially in the last couple of decades. I'm disappointed in the GB's view of themselves and how this has resulted in what Furuli calls "veneration" (but not "idolizing") by the rank and file. And I'm disappointed in the typical compromises and lack of candor that is always associated with trying to act like we have special knowledge of the times and seasons. But outside of those areas, the attempt to lead us spiritually has been exceptional, worthy of imitation, and a very valuable core set of teachings remain. I know of no other religion that promotes such a valuable set of core teachings, like a pearl of great value, that we don't want to just hide in a field.

[Srecko Sostar]

10 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

I was basing it on evidence that is still with us, but mostly from past evidence from the time that the "Service Department" was treated as a separate entity from the "Writing Department"

This dualism was visible in articles. I can recall i noticed this two sort of "spiritual food" (was not aware of it then as later), which appeared alternately in publications. Heating - cooling principle. A kind of psychological war within one's own ranks (by coincident or semi-purposely or even purposely ?).  

Although at the end of the comment you praise spiritual progress and "valuable core of teachings", I cannot accept that the methodology of achievement, for a few good things for which words of praise could be found, is bordering on partial or sometimes complete manipulation of people who doubt nothing.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

Can I show you a misquote by TOM HARLEY about me. Such sly tactics. 

I would ask all JWs this. Is there a written list of CCJW core teachings, because it seems a phrase that is being 'banded about' here ? ....Such as : No beards. Must wear a tie and jacket. 

Whereas I actually wrote (but JWI will probably remove this because he has the power to do so ) 

I would ask all JWs this. Is there a written list of CCJW core teachings, because it seems a phrase that is being 'banded about' here ?   (Note the end of paragraph here )  (And different subject below) 

And I would love to see a written list of rules past and present too. Such as : No beards. Must wear a tie and jacket.  A brother and a sister should not spend time together when no one else is present. A brother and a sister are not allowed to stay the night in the same house. (but probably two brothers can or two sisters, because the GB don't want to think in that direction.

Tom is implying that I don't know doctrines from rules. It shows the JW training you have Tom. Very sad.

 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

Quote @JW Insider " I have a feeling, of course, that you are waiting to pounce on something I said or perhaps mis-worded above. "

No I'm not wanting to pounce and thank you it was good information. I only mentioned you in relation to that 1967 Watchtower magazine about the 'Last day of the last days, in fact the last part of that last day'... ( my post 7 hours ago ) 

And I related it to keeping the congregants busy, as the time was, so say. very urgent..... I wish every comment had a number so that i could refer to comment number ..... And i wish I could 'jump to' the comment I'm looking for   

[Arauna]

7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

I cannot accept that the methodology of achievement, for a few good things for which words of praise could be found, is

How silly to reason this way. No other Christian religion understands the ransom sacrifice which is the CRUX for everlasting life.  If you believe in an immortal soul - then Jesus dit not really die and did not really pay for our sins.

Jesus only received immortality as a 'reward' for his faithfulness........... so it is silly to reject the importance of this CORE teaching of JWs........ just to name one teaching.

So to judge GB on some historical old and little  thing you  personally take issue with, is not wise ......when the CORE teachings are absolutely correct and  are crucial to get absolutely right for everlasting life.... Apparently you think you can cherry pick core teachings? And reject gods organization on something which you perceive/judge to be a minor misdemeanour?  

[Arauna]

3 hours ago, César Chávez said:

This begs the question in which side Rolf, Raymond, and JWinsider are ...

Agreed. One can view yourself as a scholar of the 'past' and study every non-perfect word uttered by GB or their imperfect choices, then inadvertantly play into the hands of those who hate JWs for very silly reasons....... all this in the search for the absolute truth of the past...... something which a human cannot do...... this is Jehovah's domain.

3 hours ago, César Chávez said:

seem the above would approve and prefer that kind of disunity among the brethren. I

These brothers at the time, seemed to reason without 'soundness of mind' ..... without seeing Jehovahs vision for the future - large expansion.

One needs some form of structure to provide 'food' and distribute it to all the brethren in the world to keep all on the same page.....Jehovah knew this and he provided a slave which is easily recognizable today.

3 hours ago, César Chávez said:

anything that could have the slightest semblance of abridging the liberties of the brethren or of bringing them into any kind of bondage;

I value these principles extremely highly - not to overstep my boundaries and dominate others in any way.  This problem of domination over others (even in slight ways) has plagued mankind in all spheres of life since Adam sinned. We are constantly reminded by GB to not do this BUT individuals do overstep the mark due to imperfection........ no matter how spiritual they are.  However,  this does not imply that we must be disorganised as a people and not have a central organization, especially if the central organization is committed to these godly principles.... 

To have a coordinated world-wide nation ..... implies some order and organization of thought to create a unity of mind and action....... especially to fulfill the preaching 'and teaching' commission. Each one cannot teach their own interpretation.

3 hours ago, César Chávez said:

11So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we

Thank you for the outlay of these scriptures....... 

3 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Why Furuli decided to go against scripture, only he knows. We

Maybe dementia?   .......  Did not take advice from other brothers, acted alone and egotistically?  Very sad...... for a book that does not seem so good........(I do not intend to read it.... but I listen intently to the comments about it here on the forum. )

3 hours ago, César Chávez said:

We simply do not know how appointment to the Sanhedrin took place, and whether it was for life or for a limited

They were heavily influenced by Greek oratory tradition....... the Mishna was already part of oral tradition, although not yet written down..  Few of Sanhedrin were levites.  Were the Levites not appointed by jehovah under Law to do the teaching and judging? But they no longer followed the law - as brought out by Jesus.

The Sanhedrin it seems were appointed for life.  Annas was already retired (if I remember correctly appointed by Roman official) but carried the title of lifelong appointee.  So he was brought back into the trial of Jesus to give more credence to the descisions. Caiaphas was high priest (married to daughter of Annas) and appointed by Herod. 

Here is an excerpt found on JW.org:

"The Sanhedrin had 71 members—the high priest and 70 of the nation’s principal men. In Roman times it was made up of priestly nobles (mainly Sadducees), lay aristocrats, and learned scribes of the party of the Pharisees. The priestly aristocracy, supported by distinguished laymen, dominated the court. Whereas the Sadducees were conservative, the Pharisees were liberal and were chiefly commoners who had great influence with the people. According to the historian Josephus, the Pharisees’ demands were reluctantly met by the Sadducees. Paul took advantage of their rivalry and the differences in belief between these groups when he defended himself before the Sanhedrin."

The Sanhedrin became an established political body from the time of Antiochus IV.  Although the decapolis cities had many gymnasiums etc and the culture  became more and more  hellenistic (koine Greek the language) the Hasmodeans violently resisted Antiochus's  idea to replace their God with Zeus in the temple and revolt and resistance against pagan authorities started the extremist downward spiral  which eventually led to destruction of Jerusalem.

[Srecko Sostar]

3 hours ago, Arauna said:

Apparently you think you can cherry pick core teachings? And reject gods organization on something which you perceive/judge to be a minor misdemeanour?  

I believe how this verses are for all of us, and GB too: 

Before God "small things" are of same importance as "big things".

Spiritual things always have more than one opinion. 

We are authorized to choose what we consider is the best for us.   

 He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much. - Luke

And Elijah came to all the people, and said, “How long will you falter between two opinions? - 1 Kings

I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live; - Deuteronomy

I suggests, recommends to people who thinking like you, please change your attitude :))  

 

[Witness]

10 hours ago, Arauna said:

Were the Levites not appointed by jehovah under Law to do the teaching and judging?

Yes, they were, and it didn't end when Jesus fulfilled the law.  God made an everlasting covenant with this priesthood.

For thus says the Lord: ‘David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel; 18 nor shall the priests, the Levites, lack a man to offer burnt offerings before Me, to kindle grain offerings, and to sacrifice continually.’ ”

"And the word of the Lord came to Jeremiah, saying, 20 “Thus says the Lord: ‘If you can break My covenant with the day and My covenant with the night, so that there will not be day and night in their season, 21 then My covenant may also be broken with David My servant, so that he shall not have a son to reign on his throne, and with the Levites, the priests, My ministers. 22 As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, nor the sand of the sea measured, so will I multiply the descendants of David My servant and the Levites who minister to Me.’ ”  Jer 33:19-22

 

Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, 5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,

“Behold, I lay in Zion
A chief cornerstone, elect, precious,
And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.”

7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient,

“The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone,”

8 and

“A stone of stumbling
And a rock of offense.”

They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.

9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.  1 Pet 2

The ONLY time the priesthood has not been recognized in the capacity they are to hold under God's covenant with them, is within the time span of the Watchtower Organization. 

 It acted arrogantly even against the Prince of the heavenly army; it revoked his regular sacrifice and overthrew the place of his sanctuary.  Dan 8:11

"His power will be great, but it will not be his own. He will cause outrageous destruction and succeed in whatever he does. He will destroy the powerful along with the holy people. Dan 8:24

"Then the king will do whatever he wants. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god, and he will say outrageous things against the God of gods. He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed, because what has been decreed will be accomplished."  Dan 11:36

"And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation."  Rev 13:5-7

"Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God."  2 Thess 2:3,4

"Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. 2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months."  Rev 11:1-3

Elders are "Gentiles".  The anointed are "Israel"/"Jews" of "New Jerusalem".  Gal 4:26

 

If you and others like you could only see the truth, yet you choose the doctrine of men by supporting the elder body as your "judges" and "priests".  This blasphemes God's covenant with the priesthood, and tramples His Temple as prophesied to happen in the last days.