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The WEST's war of words against CHINA. Starting with the Uyghurs.

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6 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

This smacks a lot of like “putting lipstick on a pig.”

There's a 1960's era joke about a family in their car just pulling out of their driveway in sweltering heat with the all the windows up. The kids ask why they can't roll down the windows to get some air, and the father says: "What? And let the neighbors know we don't have air conditioning?"

This reminds me of one of the claimed blunders of Mao Zedung, who continued to export wheat during a famine so as not to appear weak to the rest of the world. (And Stalin similarly wouldn't import wheat when he needed to, for about the same reason.)

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23 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Pushing this number to 16.5 million was necessary for the "gasp" factor in hurting Mao's party faction and Mao's ideas which had become a "cult of personality." It might have been meant as a kind of "negotiation" number, just to make sure it remained extremely high even when challenged.

When you see such shenanigans in the present human interactions of entirely different spheres, you don’t assume that you are seeing it for the first time ever. Rather, you figure that this is but the latest example of what humans will do in pushing their own point of view. Thus, everything you say is plausible. Exaggeration, over-promotion, running the other side off the road, muddying the waters so the other side will give up, outright denial, seeing only what one wants to see: these are the stock in trade tools of humans. Whether right or wrong, to have someone assert it has been put to work here, as well, in the analysis of Chinese communism, is not shocking. It doesn’t speak well of our ability to “know” anything. If we may go from your “lofty” example to one of pop trivia, if there is one fixed star in Dylanography, it is that Bob was booed at the Newport Festival of folk music snobs because he forsook acoustic for electric. Not so, says Pete Seeger, who was there, and who is usually thought the foremost critic. It was because the sound was so garbled nobody could understand him, but the producers refused to fix it, saying “young people like it this way.”


This is another reason that I like the Bible—it doesn’t make nearly the attempt to appeal to the head that it does the heart. Try to appeal to the head and you must compete with liars, frauds, loonies, and zealots. Try to appeal to the heart and it is a straight shot. Those too “educated” for the Bible might reflect on Carl Jung, who not only acknowledged that there is a spiritual side of things, but maintained that the spiritual side is the more genuine, the more real, the more true. The “statements of the conscious mind,” he says, “may easily be snares and delusions, lies, or arbitrary opinions, but this is certainly not true of statements of the soul.” 

When it comes to government, I very much like the Bible analogy of ancient rulership being like the heavens over mankind that might rain on you one moment, bless you will sunshine the next, blow away in a windstorm all you own in yet another moment, and there isn’t a thing you can do about it. For all the material advances in both education and “political science,” the reality is not so different today, but participatory government better presents the illusion that “we” are in control. Communism makes no bones about saying we’re not. Someone else is. You are cogs in someone else’s machine. You have no say.

If you are going to take over someone’s life, you’d better not screw it up. 

For all practical purposes, most people have no say in Western government either, but they do have some. Put in $1000 worth of effort and you may see a $10 return. That’s not a lot, but people like the idea of control. Even in situations where communism might produce a $20 return, it will be opposed by many, as it goes against human nature.

I took a public speaking course in college in which the professor coincidentally happened to be a huge advocate of participatory government. With student elections coming up—you know, nothing important, just who will run the Student Council of campus affairs—he relentlessly pushed for getting out the vote, and I got fed up. When it was my turn to plan and present my speech, I chose the topic, “Why we shouldn’t vote.” (This was before I knew anything about Jehovah’s Witnesses) I developed three reasons not to vote: 1) candidates lie, saying whatever they must to get elected. 2) Candidates “grow”—they reassess their views afterward—maybe for good or maybe for ill, but independent of your wishes. 3) Candidates may earnestly try to deliver, but find themselves outmaneuvered by those of opposite view. The upshot the three points is that it is just not worth it sinking that much time into politics—there are plenty of other things that offer better payoff. The professor was fairly sporting about it, mumbling that he didn’t agree but that I had raised solid points. He didn’t flunk me.

On 8/3/2020 at 11:55 PM, JW Insider said:

But the success of the Chinese economy in years to come shows that not all its lessons [of the Great Leap Forward] were wasted.

I doubt it shows that at all. The success is more likely due to the Chinese people better capturing the spirit of Proverbs 6:6: “Go to the ant, you lazy one, consider its ways, and become wise.” Substitute only “cooperative” for “lazy” and you have a perfect fit. China had an “industrial revolution” that precedes that of the West by almost 1000 years—Mao had nothing to do with it.

“In the State of Wu of China, steel was first made, preceding the Europeans by over 1,000 years. The Song dynasty saw intensive industry in steel production, and coal mining. No other premodern state advanced nearly as close to starting an industrial revolution as the Southern Song,” says Wikipedia. Only lack of a middle class, Wiki speculates, prevented that early revolution from catching on, something that makes a hero of Henry Ford, for realizing that without someone to buy his products, he could only go so far.


One author I came across raised the point of Chinese cooperation due to long-engrained Confucian value system that  emphasizes responsibly and holds that the group is more important than the individual—and asks whether that isn’t the very antithesis of Thomas Jefferson’s Declaration of Independence, that holds as “self-evident” the individual’s right to pursue life, liberty, and happiness. I think his point is well-taken. The only trouble with too much “group-think” is that it is easy for a scoundrel to insert himself at the head and direct the body per his will.


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22 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Whether right or wrong, to have someone assert it has been put to work here, as well, in the analysis of Chinese communism, is not shocking. It doesn’t speak well of our ability to “know” anything.

I appreciate the thoughtful response.

You hit upon the basic problem of what we can "know" for certain, especially about a topic for which the waters have definitely been muddied. The very fact that "experts" give ranges from 10 million to 40+ million deaths, already shows there is huge margin of error involved. And the range of reasons for it are inconsistent, too. (Varying amounts of human error vs. drought, or willful disregard for life, or even murderous intent.)

I put the number 4 million out there for the Great Leap Forward (1958-62) as a probable minimum. (I should have said possible minimum.) The range could start lower, and still go much higher. What I was hoping to point out was that if we really don't know, then we can't use those supposed facts to color our reasoning on other claims we hear (about China in this case).

Personally, I think the 4 million number I posited is too low. I think upwards of 10 million really is quite possible. (So you'll notice that presenting the 4 million as a possibility, I was also using "negotiation" numbers.)

I should also say that I believe Deng was actually careful to use believable reports from the various provinces. (He had been a journalist.) By most accounts, he visited some of the hard hit areas himself and gathered reports from those who visited other areas. Since exact numbers were not available, he would have received wide ranges of numbers, and his anti-Mao bias allowed him to choose the upper end of those ranges. His number (16.5 million) would have been an absolute maximum, but not impossible. Even those who criticize the anomalies in the statistics are not usually trying to "prove" a specific number, only that there must have been a one-sided bias behind them.

But back to that point of what we can and cannot "know." We can't very well use dubious "facts" as a foundation for believing more dubious "facts."  It seems to me that there is a constant (intentional) stream of negative news reports about China, and it has been shown that many of these turn out to be false, or are highly exaggerated, one-sided, or believable, but without any basis in evidence. This doesn't mean that negative reports are necessarily wrong, of course. But it does mean we need to use caution.

Even if we still believe the worst possible scenario (70+ million intentional, murderous deaths?), does that necessarily mean we must accept any and all negative reports we hear about China today?

On this idea of intentional deaths, or even a willful disregard for human life, there is another set of factors at play. In the "propaganda game" in politics and other ideologies, it's common to find quotes taken out of context, or a media title tacked onto an article which isn't supported in the article. Even the most famous of all quotes from Mao about how various production requirements would result in many deaths, we have the authors of books against Mao saying:

“Working like this, with all these projects, half of China may well have to die.”

Back to Joseph Ball's article, he says:

This quotation appears in the heading of Chang and Halliday’s chapter on the Great Leap Forward. The way the authors present this quotation it looks as if Mao was saying that it might indeed be necessary for half of China to die to realize his plans to increase industrial production.

In fact, their book (Mao: the Unknown Story which claims 70 million were killed by Mao) uses this quote as part of their proof for, as they say: "“We can now say with assurance how many people Mao was ready to dispense with.”

But here is more of the context. Note what they left out:

In this kind of situation, I think if we do [all these things simultaneously] half of China’s population unquestionably will die; and if it’s not a half, it’ll be a third or ten percent, a death toll of 50 million. When people died in Guangxi [1955], wasn’t Chen Manyuan dismissed? If with a death toll of 50 million, you didn’t lose your jobs, I at least should lose mine; [whether I would lose my] head would be open to question. Anhui wants to do so many things, it’s quite all right to do a lot, but make it a principle to have no deaths.22 . . . As to 30 million tons of steel, do we really need that much? Are we able to produce [that much]? How many people do we mobilize? Could it lead to deaths?

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Another important piece of context about famines in China even before Mao was in power, based on Wikipedia's list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famines_in_China

  1810, 1811, 1846, 1849     Unknown (45 million decrease, unknown how many emigrated or avoided census to evade taxes)[4]
  1850–1873   Nian Rebellion, Taiping Rebellion and drought Primarily caused by famine, lower life expectancy and plague in the case of the Nian rebellion, the total war casualties are claimed to possibly be 10–30 million people[5][6]
Great North China Famine 1876–1879 Northern China Drought 9–13 million[7]
  1896–97 Northern China Leading in part to the Boxer Rebellion  
Great Qing Famine 1907 Northern Jiangsu, parts of central China and Guangdong   Allegedly 25 million
1920–1921 North China famine 1920–1921 Henan, Shandong, Shanxi, Shaanxi, southern Zhili (Hebei)   0.5 million[8]
Chinese famine of 1928–30 1928–1930 Northern China Drought 3 million
1936–1937 famine 1936–1937[9] Sichuan, Gansu   Unknown (the source that claimed up to 5 million people has been unproven)
1942–1943 famine 1942–1943 Mainly Henan Second Sino-Japanese War 2–3 million
Great Chinese Famine 1959–61[10] Entire country[11][12] Great Leap Forward, Floods, Droughts, Typhoons, Insect Invasion[13] 15 to 55 million [14]
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On 8/1/2020 at 7:47 AM, JW Insider said:

I have plenty more details and evidence about the Uyghurs, but so far this was mostly just one set of claims against another set of claims.

I saw a PBS show, China—Power and Prosperity not long ago. The segment about the Uyghurs (toward the end) seems to back what Arauna says, minus only the medical tourism part. Several witnesses who lived through it are interviewed—ones now in “self-imposed exile” in Istanbul. One man tells of massive detention centers where he saw ones interrogated with “unbearable brutality,” one woman of her block mates taken for interrogation 15 at a time, and would reemerge “bruised and swollen.”

On 8/1/2020 at 10:21 AM, Arauna said:

but my sense of right and wrong was outraged when I heard that they take children away from parents and re-train them in boarding schools where state propaganda is spoon-fed day and night.  

They testified as to this, too. They all assert that state video of helpful retraining is “staged and scripted.” The justification for all of it is some terrorist attacks from that ethnicity. It seemed convincing to me. Easy to find, if you have not seen it. Google the topic and bring up some YouTubes. The government spokesman who denies it all wonders “who is paying them?”

There is something about a PBS offering, or any offering from ones of similar background. How to put it?

On 8/1/2020 at 10:21 AM, Arauna said:

but they are forced to comply at peril of their life or a system that can take all their social credit away in one swoop.  This new social credit system is terrible and may soon come to the west

Interviewing one Chinese company spokesperson about this, the interviewer asks: “Does it work?” that is—does the system of incentives and disincentives serve to change people’s conduct? The woman seems flustered at this, and mumbles that “Of course it works,” before breaking away. “Something about our question disconcerted the hosts, who suspended the interview and withdrew,” says the narrator, “but our mics were still on and recorded what they next said privately” (not exact quote, but close).

The first thing the woman said privately to some cohorts was: (in the full version, not the edited one) “What kind of a question was that?” That had been my impression, too. What was disconnecting about the question was the sheer stupidity of it. Do incentives and disincentives serve to mold behavior? Of course they do! There is something so naive about persons who have been raised with “enlightened” views of discipline. The next backstage remarks are of how they can’t really refuse an interview, but they want to take care not to criticize the party, and of course, this is what the program seizes upon, as though their dopey question served to expose the underbelly of the beast. 

If a stove is red-hot, and people know it is red hot, will they touch it? Only in the West will moral revisionists question this, extrapolating the few who will indeed touch it anyway into the many. The truth is more in accord with Mark Twain’s observation that “a cat that sits on a hot stove will never sit on a hot stove again. Nor will it sit on a cold one—for they all look hot.”

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@TrueTomHarley, Thanks for bringing this back to the original topic. I'd like to follow up on that too, although I should probably summarize my own view on Mao, lest someone think I am just trying to do a whitewash here.

One can always focus on the negatives, and as @Arauna has pointed out before, should look at people in the context of their time. And if one came out of a time filled with injustice and violence, this should not absolve anyone of their own crimes. Another one might focus only on accomplishments that were considered good. (In Mao's case he apparently got rid of opium/drugs, brought literacy rates up through free education, brought millions out of poverty, succeeded in bringing free health care to the majority, increased the overall production of food per capita, increased industrial production per capita, etc.)

But at what cost? Arauna draws comparisons to the immediate aftermath of the French Revolution. Rebellion and reform in China took the form of an ongoing civil war, where rebellions and civil wars for decades were often met with brutal torture and violence on both sides. In America it was the North winning over the South at a cost of nearly 750,000 lives, and an additional 2,000,000 or so suffering (though surviving) debilitating diseases. (See, NYT:  https://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/03/science/civil-war-toll-up-by-20-percent-in-new-estimate.html and PBS: http://www.pbs.org/mercy-street/uncover-history/behind-lens/disease/ )

In the US Civil War each side poured more men into the war with little apparent regard for the cost of soldiers' lives, and the further suffering of a greater number of orphans and widows produced. But at least that particular war didn't go on for decades, and though the U.S. South was purged from most government positions, they won a generally peaceful amnesty, and regained their political power after not much more than a single decade. (Also consider that the US population was only about 30 million in 1860, compared to China's 550 million in 1950.)

One should not try to clean up Mao's "less endearing" qualities, but should also see him in his historical context. To give an idea of that context --and Mao's participation in purges and executions-- I have a book called "Mao: A Life" by Phillip Short. It's a huge book, and I will offer some bullet point summaries, although skipping some important sections:

 - The Qing Dynasty (1636-1912) was brutal. Internal & anti-foreign rebellions & famines were common.
 - Japan's defeat of Russia in 1905 inspired Asians to nation-build and modernize.
 - Mao at first sought to promote Imperial China (then later promoted Sun-Yat-Sen)
 - Mao went to school in Changsha, where revolutionary and anti-Manchu sentiment were prominent.
 - Republic of China (ROC) was declared in 1911, but there were constant fights within leadership elites.
 - Imperial (Qing) forces fought back to maintain their rule, killing indiscriminately.
 - Mao was a bit of an elitist, though he certainly sympathized with and befriended urban workers.
 - The Qing Dynasty eventually fell in 1912. Sun Yat-Sen became President and the country demobilized.
 - The Xinhai Revolution has come to an end: Republic of China 1912-1949 (with fragmentation).
 - Mao returned to his studies in Changsha, Hunan.
 - In Changsha in 1912, Mao came into contact with socialist/anarchist people and literature.
 - The Guomindang (GMD) led the elections in 1912, but Yuan (pro-Qing) monopolized power by 1913.
 - Sun Yat-Sen (SYS) tried to launch a "2nd Revolution" against Yuan, but it was defeated.
 - Liberals (SYS) took over Southern provinces, but Yuan reimposed control in Hunan and banned GMD.
 - China was ceding a lot of territory and resources to the Western Powers during this period.
 - Japan had issued demands including territory 1914-1915 and the Yuan autocracy capitulated to them.
 - Mao gathered youth groups together in 1915, as well as journalism and hiking groups in 1917.
 - Yuan declared himself Emperor at the end of 1915, resulting in immediate Civil War.
 - In 1916, school surveillance and press censorship prevailed.
 - Mao hated school, vacillated a lot, and had depression & self-loathing.
 - Zhou Enlai & Mao participated in group meetings, rejecting the Church, capitalism, monarchy, etc.
 - Mao decided to go to Beijing in 1918-1919 instead of France, working as a librarian at Beijing University.
 - He then went to Shanghai, where his ideology was a mix of social democracy and anarchism.
 - Japan took Shandong Province after WW1, inflaming hatred of the Western Powers who had allowed it.
 - Mao urged the necessity of rebellion & democracy, warning of authoritarianism in Germany & Japan!
 - Mao also wrote many articles championing women's rights.
 - Mao's study groups eventually became Bolsheviks in 1921, by which time Mao embraced Marxism. 
 - Shanghai at this time was the "Whore of the East," home of British capitalism, expats, prostitution, etc.
 - Signs in Shanghai and foreign-controlled parks said "Chinese and dogs not allowed!"
 - Capitalist industry in China was horrifying: child labor, pollution, and even slavery!
 - Mao joined the Workingmen Association and recruited members and led a strike as head of Changsha.
 - Zhao, 1922 governor of Hunan, executed 2 Workingmen leaders, leading him to be universally despised.
 - Wu Peifu cracked down on labor in the February 7, 1923 Massacre, bringing labor to a standstill!
 - Mao returned again to Hunan in civil war. Zhao won with Northern support, not boding well for labor.
 - An anti-communist Right Wing formed in the GMD, including CKS (Chiang Kai-Shek; training in Moscow).
 - In 1925, the CPC had only 994 members, so he began thinking about a new strategy involving peasants.
 - Japan shot at striking workers in 1925, followed by similar actions by Britain, culminating in riots!
 - Mao enthusiastically organized peasants and created schools for them, realizing their significance.
 - Mao was in powerful GMD positions, controversially calling for peasant rule and combating landlords.
 - CPC membership ballooned to 30,000 by the end of 1926.
 - Stalin shifted to supporting peasant revolt as the Left-GMD won & peasant government was established.
 - Chiang encircled and surprise-attacked Shanghai communist strongholds in April 1927, killing 400.
 - Zhou Enlai organized general strikes & marches in Shanghai. Mass-slaughter ensued, a Left setback.
 - Chiang marginalized the Left-GMD & CPC with violent & secret repression, coordinating with the West.
 - After some GMD killed Westerners, Western media decried the "Bolshevik menace" & funded Chiang.
 - Many Westerners left in 1927. Unemployment rose, GMD purged & executed, with provinces in anarchy!
 - On May 21 (Horse Day), 1927, the Changsha military slaughtered >10,000 peasants and communists.
 - Peasant governments were dissolved, with right-wing slaughter in other parts of Hunan (400,000).
 - Mao & the CPC realized the need for a military. Stalin called for a >50,000-person force.
 - The tension between "Bourgeois Alliance" & "Peasant Revolt" exploded. Both seemed impossible.
 - CPC decision-making seemed to collapse by Summer 1927. Stalin & Bukharin even denounced the CPC.
 - The Left-GMD then broke off with the CPC. The Left-GMD then collapsed and the CPC went into hiding.
 - Chiang eventually seized Beijing, forcing Wang Jingwei (Sun-Yat-Sen's left-wing successor) to flee to Europe.
 - In this adventure in 1927, Mao (on the run) was almost killed by other GMD forces several times!
 - Li Lisan, a major CPC leader, was found to be withholding Soviet diktats. He was disgraced in 1930.
 - In December 1930, Chiang sent 100,000 troops south. Mao trapped/destroyed them, stealing weapons!
 - Chiang sent 200,000 in 1931, but still lost! Mao's strategies worked & radio technology was taken.
 - Then 300,000 were quickly sent. Mao won some battles, but had to narrowly flee, dropping heavy items.
 - In September 1931, Japan invaded & took over Manchuria, sufficiently distracting CKS.
 - Mao criticized previous orders to attack cities, & the Comintern promoted the Army's role in Revolution.
 - In February 1930, Mao purged rich opportunists from the Jiangxi Party, killing 4 major officials.
 - Secret GMD Rightists called "AB-tuan" infiltrated CPC leadership, collaborating with rich landlords.
 - 2,000 AB-tuan suspected to have murdered important CPC & military leaders were tortured & executed.
 - Torture was approved by the CPC and was gruesome and rampant, so much so that parts of it rebelled.
 - A rebel group petitioned the CPC to remove Mao using incriminating forgeries.
 - Even the rebels did not deny AB-tuan sabotage. There was general amnesty, but 3 leaders were executed.
 - 3,400 people were killed in Jiangxi purges in 1931. 20,000 total were killed in other CPC regions.
 - The purges and killings, called the "Futian Incidents," were later deemed panic-induced and excessive.
 - Liu Shaojiu was reprimanded for his brutal methods. Torture and low-level CPC killings were banned.  
 - Class background was considered to be the determining factor in purges from then on.
 - In 1931, the Politburo sent a secret agent to assassinate CKS. It failed and he defected to the GMD.
 - The agent's defection led to the killing of thousands of CPC members in Shanghai and elsewhere.
 - CKS killed >1.2 million people by this point, including Mao's wife Kaihui, collecting ears as trophies.
 - The Chinese Soviet Republic was proclaimed in Jiangxi and southern regions on November 7, 1931.
 - The CPC shifted to a strategy to attack cities in 1932. Mao violently disagreed, but could do nothing.
 - The March 1932 attack on Ganzhou City failed horribly and Mao was brought back.
 - Mao was stripped of most positions in 1932 for two full years. This decision was at first kept secret.
 - Bo Gu later openly denounced Mao with outright lies, initiating an anti-Mao influence campaign.
 - However, praise & support from Stalin & the Comintern since 1928 meant that Mao couldn't be ruined.
 - As Chairman, he imposed taxes on the rich & public ownership, redistributed land, & forged a currency.
 - Mao investigated poverty, food, & industry, addressing questions of rules, geography, & scale in policy.
 - In his investigative analysis, he found that 27% of society was middle-to-upper class, & 73% laborers.  
 - Class repression was also carried out, coinciding with the USSR's de-kulakization, 1930-1933.
 - The right to vote was given to workers only and one-quarter of all officials had to be women.
 - Chiang assembled >500,000 troops, strangled Ruijin, & encircled the Reds with forts & German help.
 - The Red Army was now outnumbered 10:1. Mao, now very sick again, twice urged an escape.
 - From 1932 onward, the CPC gained popular support by arguing it was the sole defender against Japan.
 - Hitler purges his troopers in 1934; Italy invades Ethiopia; Japan menaces in Asia. The Axis is forming!  
 - Mao went east to propagandize & recruit. The anti-CKS policy gradually became secondary to Japan.
 - Anti-Japan protests erupted all over China & Chiang was arrested in the "Xi'an Incident" of 1936.
 - The USSR still supported Chiang's government, despite its corruption, betrayals, & unpopularity.
 - Japan then invaded Shanghai in 1937 and Massacred & Raped Nanjing, the Nationalist capital.
 - Mao moved into Yan'an (a walled city) with He Zizhen, where he began to study and give (bad) lectures.
 - Mao studied Marx, Lenin, Stalin, European history, philosophy, and dialectical materialism in depth.
 - Stalin more officially endorsed Mao in 1938 as Chiang ordered anti-communist crackdowns in Wuhan.
 - The Japanese air-bombed Mao's headquarters in Yan'an in 1939.
 - Chiang increasingly sabotaged & blockaded. The "100 Regiments Campaign" killed 9,000 Reds in 1940.
 - The Red Army grew from 50,000 to 500,000 in 1940. The CPC now had more than 1 million members.
 - The CPC launched the "Rectification Campaign" in 1941 to root out "Leftist Dogmatism & Repression."
 - It was clear the USSR would defeat fascism in 1942, signalling confrontation between the GMD & CPC.
 - Mao was elected Chairman of the Politburo in 1943.
 - While CPC membership was exploding, 5% (40,000) had to be expelled for political unreliability.
 - 90% of the expelled were rehabilitated into the CPC in 1943. Mao said "we should not kill anyone."
 - Wang Shiwei was a famous writer accused of "Anti-Party" Trotskyism in 1943 & later executed in 1947.  
 - In 1943, both Chiang and Mao publicly claim to be the destined rulers of China.
 - At the Yalta Conference (February 1945), Stalin & the West came to a deal on post-war alliances.
 - The 1945 "Resolution on Questions of Party History" urged CPC reform & brought back former enemies.
 - Stalin signed an alliance with Chiang in 1945, which left the CPC to fight the GMD virtually alone.
 - Truman drops an A-bomb on Hiroshima, then Stalin invades Manchuria, then the US bombs Nagasaki.
 - Imperial Japan unconditionally surrenders to the capitalist Powers (only) in August-September 1945.
 - Korea, a brutal Japanese colony, was also divided between North (USSR aid) and South (US aid).
 - The Cold War then intensified: the US occupied cities & aided CKS; the USSR sought a Red Manchuria.
 - GMD forces with US aid attacked the CPC in Manchuria in November 1945. Stalin ordered the CPC out!
 - Mao was at first very depressed, but then the US needed to withdraw from China, uplifting his outlook.
 - And Mao was still overwhelmingly popular in China as the Civil War loomed in Summer 1946.
 - The Red Army quietly retreated into Shenxi & Hebei provinces, then completely destroyed GMD forces.
 - The CPC went offensive in May 1947, took Manchuria railways, & destroyed 640,000 GMD by December.
 - The CPC retook Yan'an in 1948. Low GMD morale & incompetence led Mao to estimate victory by 1951.
 - The purges made infiltration into the CPC impossible; whereas the GMD contained moles at every level.
 - Many were conscripted into the GMD involuntarily; almost the opposite was true in the Red Army.
 - The US gave $300 billion-equivalent in arms and aid to Chiang Kai-Shek, but it made no difference.
 - The GMD in Manchuria was wiped out in 1948. Mao called imperialists & atom bombs "Paper Tigers!"
 - The CPC expanded in Central China (Anhui, Henan, Jiangsu, Shandong) trapping & ruining 500,000 GMD.
 - Tianjin fell in January 1949. Beijing quickly surrendered. Nanjing, Shanghai, etc. fell in Spring 1949.
 - The People's Republic of China (PRC) was established on October 1, 1949, with support & celebration!
 - Mao lifted urban conditions, nationalized major/foreign business, & created a regulated capitalism.
 - The extreme South & West of the country was still under GMD control, with occasional fighting.
 - Stalin received Mao to discuss alliances but, bound by Yalta, he still didn't want to displease the West.
 - But when Britain recognized the PRC & the Cold War ramped up, Stalin reversed & recognized the PRC.
 - The Korean War was brewing in 1949 and Kim Il-Sung warned Mao of the impending struggle.
 - The PRC took over the island of Hainan, planning also for Taiwan, but the US threatened to nuke China.
 - South Korea & the US launched a counteroffensive on North Korea, prompting Mao to intervene in 1950.
 - However, Stalin didn't want to risk a US confrontation, so provided only basic support & no air-raids.
 - Chiang's arrest (1936), Stalin's orders in Manchuria (1945), & now Korea all felt like USSR betrayals.
 - Chinese troops took back North Korea, & even Seoul (but had to withdraw), with truce talks 1951-1953.
 - Imperialist atrocities (especially biowarfare) & GMD murder/sabotage led the PRC to execute 700,000.  
 - Mao's son Anying was killed in Korea. The USSR aided China and China aided Ho Chi Minh in Vietnam.
 - Class struggle was center-stage 1950-1952, with land reform, anti-corruption, & anti-sabotage efforts.   
 - 1.5 million were sent to camps; 1-2 million (landlords) died in crackdowns & spontaneous violence.
 - At this time, 1950s, provincial economic self-sufficiency was stressed; foreign trade was reduced to minimum.
 - The PLA took over Tibet in 1951, and other regions soon followed.
 - Mutual Aid Teams (MAT) & Agricultural Cooperatives (APC) were set up on a voluntary basis in 1953.
 - Policy vacillated between rural collectivization & "spontaneous capitalism," 1953-1954.
 - Crash-collectivization began in 1955: 63% of peasants belonged to APCs after this campaign.
 - Urban businesses were incorporated into the CPC (public-private); Mao wanted crash-industrialization.
 - In 1956, Khruschev delivered his "Secret Speech" against Stalin. China-USSR relations then soured.
 - Disagreements: Stalin; Parliamentary Road to Socialism; Peaceful Co-existence; Contradiction Analysis.
 - Mao proclaimed "Let 100 Flowers Bloom": the CPC brought back intellectuals, etc. in 1956.
 - The CPC disagreed on "100 Flowers," but Mao strongly pushed, troubled by the 1956 Hungary Uprising.
 - Mao spoke on "Correct Handling of Contradictions among People" in 1957, calling for open criticism.
 - Some critiqued the CPC as alienated, bureaucratic, & aristocratic; some wished to overthrow socialism!
 - The 1957 Anti-Rightist Campaign began amidst GMD terrorism. 520,000 had to labor with peasants.
 - APCs were not producing surpluses & the Four Pests Campaign failed. Large industry was still needed.
 - The Great Leap Forward sought to irrigate farms & increase steel production, based on the communes.
 - Party cadres & the PLA were ordered to work in communes for 1 month each year.
 - Steel-making was successful, but only 80% usable; farming was mixed, but 1958 had a record harvest.
 - Mao admitted miscalculations & over-enthusiasm; Mao was skeptical of high expectations & numbers.
 - The US threatened communists with nukes, so Mao & Khruschev sought to develop their own weapons.
 - The USSR launched Sputnik in 1957. Khruschev also cancelled military aid to China in 1959.
 - Peng Dehui (arguing with Mao for decades), criticized the pace/scale of the Great Leap & was sacked!
 - Mao redoubled the Great Leap's efforts, but southern floods & northern droughts brought mass hunger.
 - The Tibet Revolt, Indian border clashes, and Russian intransigence in 1959 all heightened tensions.
 - The Sino-Soviet Split in 1960 resulted in mutual denunciations & total withdrawal of USSR aid to China.  
 - 1/3 of all land and 8 of 12 major rivers dried up simultaneously, compounding the suffering (India too).
 - 1/6 of all land (in south) severely flooded.
Combination killed [up to] 20 million from 1959 to 1961 (like 1876).
 - 1961 saw local civil wars with peasant-militia rebellions in Henan, Tibet, Sichuan, with separatists too.
 - China had to import grain from Australia and Canada in 1961. Mao gradually withdrew from politics.  
 - Communes, collective mess halls, and the free supply system were challenged (albeit cautiously).
 - Communes were reduced in size & function, and private ownership, markets, & wage-gradation allowed.
 - Mao rejected proposals by Liu Shaoqi & Deng Xiaoping to differentiate farm policy in North & South.
 - Mao took a lot of blame at the C.C. meeting in 1962, attended by thousands, opening up CPC leadership.
 - Mao returned to politics in 1962 and reimposed strictness. The "Antis" campaign was revived in 1963.
 - 1.5 million CPC cadres were mobilized to oversee policy changes & cleanse corruption, killing 2,000.
 - Liu Shaoqi was supposed to succeed Mao, but was cast aside after criticizing his policies too much.
 - Jiang Qing played a key role in Mao's political attacks and propaganda.
 - Affluence & zeal were inversely related according to Mao: "Those who are poor want revolution!" (1964)
 - Mao believed a "Capitalist Road" conspiracy was emerging within the Party.
 - By 1965, Mao was preparing a Purge and "class struggle," and accused Liu & Deng of plotting.
 - The Socialist Education Movement began in 1964; the "Cultural Revolution" (formally) in 1966.
 - Mao delivered a speech to young "Red Guard" at Tiananmen; Lin Biao campaigned against "The 4 Olds."
 - Red Guards killed >300 people, given virtually free reign (& free train travel) to spread Mao's Revolution.
 - Books, temples, and some schools were destroyed as Mao's "Little Red Book" was popularized.
 - China developed its first nuclear weapons in 1967.
 - Purges & attacks in schools shifted to Party elites: officials were conned & persecuted, without trial.
 - Provincial & city committees were overthrown; Labor organized strikes & took over newspapers in 1967.
 - Shanghai wished to become a Commune. Mao recognized anarchism & put the CPC back to share power.
 - The PLA, disgruntled by Red Guards & rebellions, initiated the February 1967 Crackdown (100s killed).
 - Liu Shaoqi & Deng Xiaoping were dispelled. Officials were humiliated; the Politburo ceased to function!
 - Factional violence ensued, with 10,000s shooting at each other in some provinces.
 - The "Million Heroes" campaign, led by old PLA, tried to retain power in Wuhan.
 - Mao blamed the chaos on the "May 16 Group." 10,000s more were killed in purges through 1968.
 - Shensi & Guangxi were now in civil war. China's unemployment rose as industrial output fell 14%.
 - The Army essentially had to help & supervise the countryside, cities, places of employment, etc.
 - The "Revolution" was declared "complete" in September 1968.
 - >1 million people were killed as a result. Half of the C.C. was now from the Army.
 - Border skirmishes with the USSR in 1969 (along with other tensions) led Mao to court the US.
 - Liu Shaoqi's death in 1968 opened up the Head of State position in 1970, a source of contention.
 - Lin Biao was next for Mao's position, written into the Constitution.
 - Lin Biao's son planned to either kill Mao or set up a rival regime.
 - Lin Biao's plane crashed as he tried to escape to Mongolia or the USSR in 1971. Everyone died.
 - Mao was depressed upon finding out about all the betrayals and deaths.
 - Nixon courted China & PRC was given its UN seat in 1971, Taiwan now sidelined. Mao was very sick!
 - Nixon met with Mao in his study in 1972, discussing deeper relations & the USSR as a common enemy.
 - Mao admitted to the US that "world defeat of imperialism" was "just rhetoric."
 - Mao brought younger CPC members on to run China and rehabilitated Deng Xiaoping in 1973.
 - Mao then attacked Zhou & Jiang Qing. Mao promoted Deng in 1974, against whom Jiang Qing conspired.
 - Mao in 1975 criticized the "Gang of Four" and former Cultural Revolution rebels as "revisionists."
 - Mao wrote that Jiang Qing's dismissal of Deng as "capitulating to capitalism" was "malarkey" (s**t)
 - Mao later denounced Deng as a "Capitalist" in 1976. 
 - Mao Zedong died on September 9, 1976.


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China: King of the North together with Russia and other totalitarian states - its allies:

One can use all the information from publications that whitewash China's atheist hate of religion and its atrocities that is now going on. Investigate the communist manifesto and you will know what a totalitarian state looks like and its goals.  It can easy become a tool of Satan. We know that the West is part of the beast ….. but what makes this kind of system so handy to turn against all religion and be the inspiration to the UN for one world order ……. and become the King of the North? 


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1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

and Mao's participation in purges and executions

It was for the "greater good"  - a popular phrase in this kind of ideology.  It reminds me of the Pharisees who said that one man must die to save many ……  Yes - there are many ways one can justify deliberate murder and killing.  

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You will see here in this testimony above it speaks of forced abortions.  I have listened and read many over the past two years.  I listened to  secret interviews (translated) of husbands who testified that the government suddenly came to pick up their wives when they were just about full term - ready to give birth with a second child.  They sterilized them - took their children (probably used the body parts because it is valuable) and threw the women out on the street far away from home!  Most of them had severe mental issues after this happened to them -  what they did to them I do not know but most of them lost their will to live...    I rarely cry when I listen to these kind of testimonies -  but these made me cry.

The woman all could not go back to the life they had before.  One husband said he is poor and his wife cannot work hard and support him and look after her living child.  He said he loved her but he may have to divorce her because he needs a partner that can work.  His wife was just sitting there like a zombie.  He found her wandering after her forced abortion.

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On 8/6/2020 at 7:36 AM, JW Insider said:

Another important piece of context about famines in China even before Mao was in power

The other day my mum and I talked about communism, I wanted to glean some more information from her since she, as opposed to me, really lived during the totalitarian regime, and had to study it at school as part of the mandated curriculum. I mentioned some of the research I have been doing on China, and she confirmed that there was famine in China even before Mao...

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2 hours ago, Anna said:

I mentioned some of the research I have been doing on China, and she confirmed that there was famine in China even before Mao...

"Never let a good crisis go to waste" is an expression that fits a lot of situations. When I googled that phrase just now, I was reminded of dozens of such examples. For example:

The TSA is one example of how crisis was used to create a police state at America airports, when its known that there are other more effective tactics which are used by other nations to avoid airliner incidents.

I was listening to Al Jazeera news two days ago (Western media disguised with a non-Western name) and I noticed that after the Lebanon explosion they gave interview after interview only to people who said that this was just another reason for regime change. And of course, the interviews were always with the whitest or most photogenic persons who spoke extra-perfect English. Other points of view are also prevalent, but you have to go outside Western media to find them. You can tell when something is amiss when a media outlet can go on for hours about the terrible economic situation in a country without a single mention of Israel or the United States or sanctions.

The famines in Russia and China provided a perfect crisis for anti-communists. It didn't matter that there had been far worse famines under the czars, because it doesn't take much to double or triple the size of a famine, and then merely state that it was through the murderous intent of a leader. (I went to school in the 1960's in Missouri with kids who still thoroughly believed that Hitler lubricated machinery with human babies.)

The dust bowl days in the midwestern United States (https://www.history.com/topics/great-depression/dust-bowl) caused the loss of 35,000,000 acres of farmland, and near ruination of another 125,000,000 acres. Imagine if there had been no place for the displaced to migrate to:

Roughly 2.5 million people left the Dust Bowl states—Texas, New Mexico, Colorado, Nebraska, Kansas and Oklahoma—during the 1930s. It was one of the largest migrations in American history. Oklahoma alone lost 440,000 people to migration. Many of them, poverty-stricken, traveled west looking for work. From 1935 to 1940, roughly 250,000 Oklahoma migrants moved to California. . . . These Dust Bowl refugees were called “Okies.” Okies faced discrimination, menial labor and pitiable wages upon reaching California. Many of them lived in shantytowns and tents along irrigation ditches.

The basic problem was somewhat analogous to the "Four Pests" campaign under Mao that included sparrows as pests. The United States had promoted farming of wheat for export when Europe was paying high prices, and farmland was promoted to inexperienced farmers without instructions for methods that protected topsoil in case of drought.

Under Mao the conditions for poor farmers were just as dire, but the problems were more widespread, with losses due to drought in one part of China, and losses due to heavy rains washing away crops in another part. As I included above:

On 8/7/2020 at 11:03 AM, JW Insider said:

 -  Mao redoubled the Great Leap's efforts, but southern floods & northern droughts brought mass hunger.
 - 1/3 of all land and 8 of 12 major rivers dried up simultaneously, compounding the suffering (India too).
 - 1/6 of all land (in south) severely flooded.
Combination killed [up to] 20 million from 1959 to 1961 (like 1876).

The big steps and the movement away from agriculture to try to build up an industrial economy at the same time made it worse. And much of that was Mao's fault, just as US policies can be blamed for much of the Dust Bowl problems. And then there were the ongoing threats by the United States to "nuke" China as the US had already done in Japan and already threatened to do in Korea. For this reason, Mao did not want to express any weakness of his programs and continued exporting grain, partly to pay for his own nuclear weapons. (Or so I've read, but not confirmed.)

2 hours ago, Anna said:

she, as opposed to me, really lived during the totalitarian regime, and had to study it at school as part of the mandated curriculum.

It would be interesting to compare notes with you and Srecko, for example, to learn more about some Eastern European experiences. In the late 1970's and early 1980's I heard several talks from Witness branch overseers who had worked in some of those countries, especially those where preaching was banned.

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On 8/7/2020 at 8:13 AM, TrueTomHarley said:

I saw a PBS show, China—Power and Prosperity not long ago. The segment about the Uyghurs (toward the end) seems to back what Arauna says, minus only the medical tourism part.

I had seen things just like it, but didn't see this one until after you mentioned it. Found the whole thing on YouTube. I only watched the Uyghurs part, but I don't trust it at all. There are thousands of Uyghurs interested in working against China politically to try to get independence for "East Turkistan." There are many well-funded Western powers who will also work with anyone to help divide China. This has been a common occurrence worldwide, and we have seen it in many countries. It has been common practice to work with divisive elements all over the world to weaken or create civil war in countries deemed too powerful or ideologically dangerous. The United States "created" and funded Osama bin Laden for this same purpose.

But there is another piece of well-known information that seemed too important to leave out of the PBS piece, and it makes me suspicious that they knew how to "stage and script" this segment in the most damning possible way. I'll get to it below. (As an aside, a couple years ago, I spoke face-to-face with a person who worked on a two-part PBS Frontline program on "Facebook/Russia" who admitted that these episodes went through a complete change of focus under a last minute partnership with some Washington Post journalists. And the reasons were most definitely political.)

I'm sure that China is trying to put the best possible face on their anti-terrorism programs, too, but here's why I am more inclined to believe that the Uyghur experiences were staged and scripted:

You had to listen closely to notice that the 2009 demonstrations by Uyghurs produced riots that killed 200, and injured over 1,000, was mostly a matter of the Han majority being killed and injured by Uyghurs:

[Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ürümqi] In the largest eruption of ethnic violence in China in decades, there were riots in July 2009 between ethnic Han Chinese and Uyghurs. The New York Times reporter covering the riot described the violence as "clashes with riot police and Uyghurs rampaging through the city and killing Han civilians. Then, for at least three days, bands of Han vigilantes roamed Urumqi, attacking and killing Uyghurs."[33]

It also should have been significant that the 2009 riots resulted in China banning Facebook. Instigation for rioting kept coming through fake news on Facebook for weeks, and the Chinese government pleaded with Facebook over and over to take down all the calls for violence. Facebook was literally pushing deadly violence. When Facebook refused, China finally banned Facebook.

Also, the majority of punishments over this riot were evidently meted out to Han Chinese participants.

Separately, PBS mentioned 12 mosques being partially or completely destroyed but left out the fact that the Chinese government has built more mosques than any other government on earth. China has even built mosques in other countries.

[Wikipedia] The first mosque in China was the Great Mosque of Xi'an, built during the Tang Dynasty in the 8th century CE. Today there are over 39,000 mosques in China,[1] 25,000 of these are in Xinjiang, a north-west autonomous region.[2]

And you'll notice that PBS did not say why the government had anything to do with the destruction of 12 out of these 25,000 mosques in Zinjiang. I suspect that they must have been pictures of renovations.

What is also odd is that there were closer to 10,000 mosques in 2009, but now after supposed suppression, there are 25,000 in the same area 2019! China more than doubles the number of mosques as a means of suppressing a Muslim population?

Those interviewed spoke of "self-imposed exile" in Istanbul, but failed to mention anything about the thousands of Uyghurs who have been proud to support and join ISIS (i.e. "Al-Qaeda") to help chop people's heads off in Syria. These persons are not welcome back in China, except to face judicial action, and this might just color their view of the re-training camps. Although this fact is well known in Middle Eastern countries, it is almost never reported in Western media.

Several other points were made without qualifying the claims with other known perspectives. There was a claim about banning Uyghur music, when China actually promotes cultural festivals for various minority groups, including for Uyghurs and their music. China promotes the acceptance of minorities in general. Here is one example mentioned on Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_Doppa_Cultural_Festival 😞

The festival was created by Tahir Imin, an independent researcher and social activist in 2009. That year in Urumqi, the celebration was broadcast by the central China broadcasting station in Beijing and publicized through Uyghur websites. In 2010, the festival was organized by the students of Beijing Normal University and supported by the Beijing Municipal religious and ethnic affairs administration bureau officials.

By 2011, Uyghur Doppa was celebrated all around China, especially in the southern and northern parts of Xinjiang. A meeting and seminar on the festival was organized by the Yakan (shache) county and Kashgar Prefecture local Government. The festival celebrates Uyghur culture and development.

You can even watch YouTube videos of these cultural celebrations, popular in all of China. By the way, the Kashgar Prefecture is:

As of the end of 2017, 4,295,200 of the 4,649,700 residents of the prefecture were Uyghur, 288,000 were Han Chinese and 66,500 were from other ethnic groups.[18]

This is as ludicrous as the news reports a couple of years ago that China had banned the cartoon "Peppa Pig."


China bans Peppa Pig because she 'promotes gangster attitudes'

Imagine such an innocent show as Peppa Pig being completely censored and banned. But it was never true. While the news reports were circulating in Western media outlets, the Chinese army was simultaneously marching in Peppa Pig formations because the show continues to be popular in China.

Soldiers arrange themselves into the shape of Peppa Pig to celebrate the Chinese Year of the Pig

Also, the ludicrous claim by Uyghurs in Istanbul that China is forcing Han Chinese into households as spies "forgot" to mention that there are many of marriages between Han and Uyghurs. The most racist of the Muslim fundamentalists however would be apt to claim that these Chinese interlopers have been forced upon these families. It's just typical racism, in my opinion. 

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