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The woman in the wilderness


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Why does the woman of Revelation 12 flee twice?

In the prophecy of Revelation 12, the woman in heaven, clothed with the sun, represents the saints, and includes the saints of the Old Testament period as well as the church which began in the first century as related in the New Testament. The woman flees to the wilderness, twice in this chapter.

Revelation 12:6
And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Revelation 12:14
And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

This presents several questions, foremost of which are, what does the wilderness represent? Are the two time periods identical? Does the church flee to the wilderness? Why does she flee to the wilderness twice? These are addressed below.

Is the wilderness literal?

The prophecy obviously invokes symbolic language, but some insist that some particular elements of it should be taken literally. Rev. Herman Hoeksema discussed an example of this. The wilderness was the item said to be literal, in a preterist interpretation. The paragraphs quoted below are from his book 

    Hello guest!
. Hoeksema wrote:

There is no one who takes this woman for a real woman. Nor are there any interpreters who understand the dragon as a real animal, or the stream which he casts out of his mouth as a real stream, or the wings which the woman receives as real wings. In so far there is no difficulty.

But in spite of this, it is necessary that we remind you of the fact that here we have no literal presentation of facts, but rather an allegory, which does not allow of literal interpretation. For although all agree that this is not a real woman with real eagle's wings, and that the dragon mentioned here is not a real dragon, and that the stream of water he casts out after the woman is not a real stream of water, yet there are interpreters who make the mistake of singling out that wilderness and of maintaining that it, at all events, must be taken in a literal sense of the word. The woman, so they say, is at this time evidently in Jerusalem, the Old Testament holy city. And as she is attacked by the enemy, she flees into a literal wilderness somewhere in the vicinity, where she is hidden twelve hundred sixty days, even as at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem the disciples fled to Pella. Now this is violating one of the most fundamental rules of interpretation, and especially of the interpretation of the Apocalypse. And we must guard against it. There is no right to single out one element in an allegorical representation of things and to take it in the literal sense.

The woman in Revelation 12 pictures the church. She is clothed with the sun, which represents the gospel, which is the true spiritual light of all mankind. John said about Jesus, "That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." [John 1:9] John showed that every human is to be enlightened by the gospel. Those who have faith and believe in Christ are pictured by the woman in heaven.

Because the woman flees to the wilderness, the church (which is represented by the woman) can not be identified with a great denomination, that is visible to the world, with its head in Rome, or some other city on the earth. The image of a woman fleeing to the wilderness suggests that the church at times has been hidden from the world, and its light has become very dim. As Puritan scholar 

    Hello guest!
 said, no great denomination has fled to the wilderness literally.

Are the time periods the same?

In this prophecy, the woman flees to the wilderness for 1,260 days, and also for "a time, times, and a half." What do these time periods mean?

Since the woman in the prophecy is symbolic, and likewise the sun, the dragon, and the wilderness, the time period for which she remains in the wilderness is symbolic too. The 1,260 days and the "time, times and a half" are figurative. They represent the entire church age, when the gospel goes to the world. The explanation is provided in the article 

    Hello guest!

To say this period means a literal 1,260 days, or three and a half years, is to single out one element in an obviously allegorical representation. This mistake is commonly made by dispensationalists.

Two perspectives

The two accounts of the woman's sojourn in the wilderness correspond in the following ways:

  1. Both are part of the same vision
  2. They involve same woman
  3. They have the same duration, 1,260 days, or "a time, times and a half"
  4. The woman is nourished both times
  5. It is the same wilderness
  6. Her place is prepared by God

These accounts of the woman's sojourn in the wilderness differ in at least two ways:

  1. The first account occurs before the great war in heaven; the second one occurs after the war, and the victory of the saints.
  2. The first time she flees, the woman's perspective is from ground level, while the second time, it is from above, as she is equipped with two wings of an eagle, which allow her to soar high above the earth. This represents a divine point of view, in contrast to a human viewpoint.

Exodus 19:4 says that God bore the Israelites upon eagle's wings. Isaiah speaks of eagles' wings in connection with a renewal of strength:

Isaiah 40:31
But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.

So, the prophecy of Revelation 12 indicates that some may need to take another look at the scriptures, with a different point of view. The human point of view is the earthly one, from ground level. It is the point of view that is associated with the little horn, in the prophecy of Daniel 7. There is a link between this chapter and the prophecy about the woman flying to the wilderness for "a time, times and a half." This expression is first mentioned in Daniel 7:25.

Daniel said, "behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things." [Daniel 7:8] These "eyes like the eyes of man" represent a human viewpoint.

The spiritual viewpoint is one that is enlightend by God, and by an understanding of the gospel. This is not a literalistic approach. An eagle soars at a great height and views the earth from above, and so, in Revelation 12, the two wings of an eagle given to the woman represent a divine viewpoint.

The king of Babylon, who received visions of the future from God, was represented by a lion with eagles' wings, in Daniel 7:3-4. These wings were plucked off. The third beast in Daviel's vision was a leopard, with four wings of a fowl, obviously meant to depict an inferior sort of wing. The Hellenistic kingdoms were characterized by pagan superstition. The worship of the Greek gods, Zeus, Hera, Poseidon, Demeter, Ares, Hermes, Hephaestus, Aphrodite, Athena, Apollo, Artemis, Hestia, and a host of others, and the pagan philosophy that went along with those beliefs, was depicted by wings of a fowl, as being a much inferior condition, compared to the understanding given to king Nebuchadnezzar. Such inferior "wings" represent false prophets and false teachings.

Thus, eagles' wings represent the gift of understanding prophecy.

What is the wilderness?

One of the key questions about the prophecy of Revelation 12 concerns the significance of the wilderness. Paul showed that there is a connection between the experience of the church and the sojourn of the Israelites in the wilderness after they came out of Egypt, and all the hard lessons they learned, which were for our examples. [1 Corinthians 10:6, 11]

The 42 months in Revelation 11:2 and 13:5 has been associated with the 42 different camps of Israel on their way to the promised land, listed in Numbers 33. They "pitched in Succoth;" ... "pitched in Etham;" ... "pitched before Migdol;" ... "pitched in Marah;" ... "came unto Elim ... and they pitched there;" ... "encamped by the Red sea;" ... "encamped in the wilderness of Sin;" ... "encamped in Dophkah;" ... "encamped in Alush;" ... "encamped at Rephidim;" ... "pitched in the wilderness of Sinai;" ... "pitched at Kibrothhattaavah;" ... "encamped at Hazeroth;" ... "pitched in Rithmah;" ... "pitched at Rimmonparez;" ... "pitched in Libnah;" ... "pitched at Rissah;" ... "pitched in Kehelathah;" ... "pitched in mount Shapher;" ... "encamped in Haradah;" ... "pitched in Makheloth;" ... "encamped at Tahath;" ... "pitched at Tarah;" ... "pitched in Mithcah;" ... "pitched in Hashmonah;" ... "encamped at Moseroth;" ... "pitched in Benejaakan;" ... "encamped at Horhagidgad;" ... "pitched in Jotbathah;" ... "encamped at Ebronah;" ... "encamped at Eziongaber;" ... "pitched in the wilderness of Zin, which is Kadesh;" ... "pitched in mount Hor;" ... "pitched in Zalmonah;" ... "pitched in Punon;" ... "pitched in Oboth;" ... "pitched in Ijeabarim, in the border of Moab;" ... "pitched in Dibongad;" ... "encamped in Almondiblathaim;" ... "pitched in the mountains of Abarim, before Nebo;" ... "pitched in the plains of Moab by Jordan near Jericho;" ... "pitched by Jordan, from Bethjesimoth even unto Abelshittim in the plains of Moab."

These 42 different camp sites help to show what the wilderness represents in Revelation 12:6 and 14. Like the Israelites who moved from place to place, the church also has not attained her permanent spiritual "land," but is still being taught, and led, often in a roundabout way, to her final destination, the promised "rest," and the eternal inheritance of the saints.

Illustrations of this occur when individual Christians abandon formerly held interpretations, and systems of interpretation, for a different view, or leave the denomination they were brought up in, and become aligned with another. The wilderness for us is the unsettled state, of seeking our promised land, not having attained it already.

The two different flights of the woman to the wilderness may be explained as representing two different viewpoints, or methods of interpretation; one being the earth-bound view, which the woman is limited to, when she lacks the two wings of an eagle, that are given to her in her second flight to the wilderness. The wings of eagles represent an understanding of prophecy, as when an eagle soars high in the air, it views the earth from above, picturing the divine viewpoint, which contrasts with the human viewpoint, represented by the little horn, which dominates the saints in the vision of Daniel 7.

In the wilderness the woman has a place prepared of God, and they feed her there for 1,260 days, but who "they" are is not stated. Then, we read of a great war in heaven. It is a spiritual war, as it is fought between the various angels of the dragon, and Michael and his angels. But that does not mean that the saints or the church have no part in it. Michael is victorious, and the dragon and his angels are cast out. When Satan is cast out, verse 11 says "they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony." Thus in this war, the church is involved in a great struggle for the truth. But it is not a war between flesh and blood. Paul said:

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

The woman is persecuted by the dragon, who sees he has been cast out.

About the time the magnificent temple in Jerusalem was nearing completion, John the Baptist went out to the wilderness to preach. The people had to leave the towns and cities, and go to the desert to hear him. John did not join one of the Jewish sects; the wilderness was neutral territory.

The woman has a place prepared for her in the wilderness, which pictures saints seeking God, by following the teaching of the scriptures. In the quest for the truth, many have left established institutions. The spiritual journey of saints to their promised "rest" is represented by the woman fleeing to the wilderness. Jesus said,

Matthew 7:13-14
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

The disciples who followed Jesus left all; they left their traditions, families, and friends. [Mark 10:28, Luke 5:28; 18:28]

Most people accept the teaching of the religion or denomination in which they were raised. But Jesus showed that for those who follow him, even family unity could be threatened. [Matthew 10:35-3; 19:29]

In the wilderness, the woman is nourished with the message of the gospel.

The children of Israel were fed with manna in the wilderness, but Jesus said that he is the true manna. [John 5:32-58]

The wilderness represents the way through which Christ leads his saints to their eternal inheritance.

John 10:4
And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

The saints are those who follow him wherever he goes.

Revelation 14:4
These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

The saints seek a heavenly inheritance.

Hebrews 13:14
For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

Paul said, "come out from among them," referring to the world.

2 Corinthians 6:17
Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

From the wilderness, the whore can be seen.

Revelation 17:3
So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

Again there is a warning to the saints, to come out of Babylon:

Revelation 18:4
Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

The wilderness pictures the period of preparation of the saints before they enter their promised rest. Jesus promises rest.

Matthew 11:28
Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

The church's struggle for the truth

One of the most obvious features to be seen in chapters 11, 12, & 13 of Revelation is the prominence given to the time periods, and their associated numbers, 1,260 days, and 42 months, and the "time, times, and a half;" all pointing to the same period of one half of a prophetic week, and corresponding to the similar symbolic 1,290 days and 1,335 days of Daniel 12, and the "time, times, and a half" mentioned in Daniel 7:25, and in Daniel 12:7. I suggest it is the last half-week of the 70th week of Daniel 9:24-27, when Christ continues to confirm his covenant with his church.

In Revelation chapter 12, these numbers are applied to the period for which the woman is in the wilderness, which alludes to the account of the sojourn of the Israelites in the wilderness, led by Moses, before they entered the promised land under Joshua.

A prominent feature in chapter 12 is the presence of two separate descriptions of the woman's flight to the wilderness, the first one occurring before the description of the war in heaven, and the second occurring after. In both of these flights to the wilderness, the woman is fed. In her second flight to the wilderness she is equipped with eagle's wings. In both flights to the wilderness, the time specified is similar, and corresponds to the symbolic "time, times, and a half," and its equivalent of 1,260 days, and to the duration of the ministry of the two witnesses. The wilderness depicts the sojourn of Christians in this present life; see 1 Corinthians 10:1-12.

The character of the woman's two flights to the wilderness may be contrasted.

The 1st flight to the wilderness

In her first flight to the wilderness, there is a famine, of "hearing the word of the Lord." [Amos 8:11-13]

In her first flight to the wilderness, there is no rain of the word of God, but a famine. The 1,260 days correspond to the three and a half years of no rain in the days of Elijah.

The two witnesses have power to "shut heaven." [Revelation 11:6] The "rain" is symbolic of God's word.

In her first flight to the wilderness, the holy city is trampled by Gentiles. [Revelation 11:2]

People view the prophecies through the spectacles of men who they view as spiritual "giants," and see themselves as "grasshoppers" in comparison to them. They quote from commentaries, and follow the traditions of men that are embraced by particular denominations or sects, that effectively kill the two witnesses, the word, and the Spirit.

In her first flight to the wilderness, the saints are overcome by the little horn, the Antichrist spirit. [Daniel 7:21, 25]

In her first flight to the wilderness, the saints are scattered. [Daniel 12:7] This has been fulfilled, and is shown by the tens of thousands of denominations.

In her first flight to the wilderness, the church becomes desolate, like a valley of dry bones. [Ezekiel 37:1-2]

In her first flight to the wilderness, the church is plundered by the armies of Gog and Magog. [Ezekiel 38:10-13]

In Zechariah's prophecy, in Zechariah 14:1-3, many of the saints are taken into captivity, houses rifled, and women ravished. It is a spiritual seduction, such as Paul alludes to in 2 Corinthians 11:1-3.

In her first flight to the wilderness, the world rejoices over the desolation of the church, and the death of the two witnesses. [Revelation 11:10]

The 2nd flight to the wilderness

In her second flight to the wilderness, the saints have renewed strength. The woman has been given eagle's wings. [Revelation 12:14] The prophecies may be viewed in a new way-from above, as pictured by eagle's wings, whereas in the first flight to the wilderness, her point of view was earth-bound, having "eyes like the eyes of a man."

Revelation 12:14
And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Isaiah said the saints will renew their strength, and "shall mount up with wings as eagles." [Isaiah 40:31] David said God "satisfieth thy mouth with good things; so that thy youth is renewed like the eagle's." [Psalm 103:5]

In the woman's second flight to the wilderness, Satan, the accuser of the brethren, has been cast out. [Revelation 12:9]

In the woman's second flight to the wilderness, the wilderness itself is changed. Isaiah said, the wilderness will be glad; the desert will "blossom as the rose;" [Isaiah 35:1] streams will flow in the desert; [Isaiah 35:6] the mountains and hills bring forth fruit; [Ezekiel 36:11] hills will rejoice. [Psalm 65:11-13] God will make bright clouds, and showers of rain. [Zechariah 10:1]

In her second flight to the wilderness, the woman has some help; the flood from the serpent's mouth gets swallowed up by the earth. [Revelation 12:16] The deceptions are exposed.

In the woman's second flight to the wilderness, the two witnesses come to life, and stand on their feet. [Revelation 11:11]

Daniel said the beast is slain, and his body given to the burning flame. [Daniel 7:11]

Fire falls on those who "know not God."

2 Thessalonians 1:7-8
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

In the woman's second flight to the wilderness, the war between the angels has been fought. The saints are victorious. [Revelation 12:11-12]

In the woman's second flight to the wilderness, the ark of the covenant is seen in the temple. [Revelation 11:19] This may be understood as the fulfillment of the new covenant, that says God will write his laws on our hearts, and remembers our sins no more. [Hebrews 10:16-17]

The second exodus

The woman's flight to the wilderness in Revelation 12:6 & 14 was foretold by the prophets Isaiah and Jeremiah. Isaiah described it in terms of a second exodus.

Isaiah 11:10-12
10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

In vs. 10, Isaiah identified the ensign as Christ. Zechariah 9:16 refers to the saints as an ensign.

Those who have a part in this great exodus come to worship at Jerusalem.

Isaiah 27:13
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

Isaiah said Jerusalem and Zion would be raised up; [Isaiah 2:2] and in the NT this prophecy is fulfilled, as shown in Hebrews 12:22-23, where Jerusalem is referred to as the "heavenly" Jerusalem; "But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem..."

According to Jeremiah, the second exodus will eclipse the first one.

Jeremiah 16:14-15
Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be said, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
But, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers.

Nowhere in the NT are Christians encouraged to go to the land of Canaan, so Jeremiah's reference to "the land that I gave unto their fathers" must refer to the eternal inheritance of the saints, under the figure of the promised land, which was called a "rest," [Psalm 95:11] but was only a type or shadow of the eternal "rest" promised to the saints. [Hebrews 4:8]

In the NT, Abraham is called the "father" of those who have faith in Christ. [Romans 4:16] Paul called him "the father of us all."

Jeremiah described the second exodus as something so great, and wonderful, that the first one, when Jews came out of Egypt under Moses, will seem insignificant in comparison.

Jeremiah 23:7-8
Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, The LORD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
But, The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.

What is the promised land of the saints? It is not Canaan, but what Canaan represents, the invisible things that the saints hope for.

Labour to enter into rest

We are to labour, to enter into rest, the promised inheritance, which is a lasting one. This involves faith in the word of God.

Hebrews 4:11-12
Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Peter said the saints have escaped the corruption that is in the world.

2 Peter 1:3-4
According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

In the Olivet discourse, Jesus warned against following anyone trying to lure us away to a desert, or to some secret place, to find the truth.

Matthew 24:26-28
Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

The place Jesus said we should flee to is not a literal wilderness, but he said "flee to the mountains," referring to the promises of God to the saints.

These words of Jesus show that involvement in an obscure sect is not how to follow Christ. The light of the gospel will shine from the east to the west; it will be seen all over the world.

An angel said to John, "the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." [Revelation 19:10]

The two wings of an eagle given to the woman represent an understanding of prophecy. In her second flight to the wilderness, equipped with the powerful wings the eagle, she finds her place, where she is nourished. This follows the victory of the saints over the serpent.

An eagle is a predator which feeds on serpents! When the scriptures became widely available, and were translated into the languages of the people, there was much opposition from the established churches and clergy, yet the church was given spiritual nourishment from the scriptures. Many denominations arose, because of varying interpretations. The word itself was translated and distributed around the world. When she flees to the wilderness possessing the wings of eagles, which represent the divine point of view, the prophecies of scripture may be properly interpreted and understood.

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I know that the organization teaches that Revelation’s “woman” is the “heavenly organization”, or the “wifelike organization”, even calling it the “wife of Jehovah” (w63 12/1 pp. 712-719) In another instance, your organizations says of the woman, She is a “bride” of many component parts, a composite “bride,” and so an organization following, imitating and doing the will of the prospective Bridegroom.  w81 5/1 pp. 22-27 Which they mean by the “bridegroom”, Jesus Christ. Is th

He certainly did, by forming His organization of the new creation, on His chief cornerstone, Jesus Christ. (2 Cor 5:17) For in Scripture it says: ‘See, I lay a stone in Zion,     a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him     will never be put to shame.’  “As you come to him, the living Stone – rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him – 5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offer

It is interesting. Well, IF WTJWorg consider themselves as "Israelite" on there way to Kingdom, it means how they are not in "spiritual paradise" today, but rather waking around in deserts of this world. :)) 

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You judge yourself you don`t need anyone to judge you

we did a discussion on Jehovah`s name and what it means for us today and You never use that name in anything you say but you do use rev somebody by name But not the most awe inspiring name at all JEHOVAH

 

 

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@derek1956   But you chose to judge me anyway .  And now you say i don't use God's name :- 

Because the name Jehovah is still in dispute. The letter 'J' wasn't even invented back then so at best it would be Yehovah.

Then we have the point of the Tetragrammaton being YHWH according to the leaders of the Organisation. So it would mean substituting the letter Y and the letter W  with the letters J and V. 

Now God's true name has deep meaning so changing it would be an insult to God, hence i now do not know exactly what is right. So i much prefer to call God, Heavenly Father and Almighty God, when i pray. If I felt good in my Christian conscience to use the name Jehovah, then I would use it. But as I'm not sure then i don't use it. Whereas it seems that you just follow the words of men. 

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On 8/16/2020 at 3:29 PM, 4Jah2me said:

Like the Israelites who moved from place to place, the church also has not attained her permanent spiritual "land," but is still being taught, and led, often in a roundabout way, to her final destination, the promised "rest," and the eternal inheritance of the saints.

It is interesting. Well, IF WTJWorg consider themselves as "Israelite" on there way to Kingdom, it means how they are not in "spiritual paradise" today, but rather waking around in deserts of this world. :)) 

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@Srecko Sostar It would seem as if the true Anointed are not in a 'spiritual paradise' because they are under the control of the GB and even under the Elders. The true Anointed are told not to meet together for Bible study or prayer. They are also told it would be working against the Holy Spirit. So it would seem that they are in a desert, without the true 'water of life'.   John 4 v 13 & 14.

In answer Jesus said to her: “Everyone drinking from this water will get thirsty again. 14  Whoever drinks from the water that I will give him will never get thirsty at all, but the water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water bubbling up to impart everlasting life.”

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On 8/16/2020 at 11:06 AM, derek1956 said:

You are not worthy of the truth of the woman

I know that the organization teaches that Revelation’s “woman” is the “heavenly organization”, or the “wifelike organization”, even calling it the “wife of Jehovah” (w63 12/1 pp. 712-719)

In another instance, your organizations says of the woman,

She is a “bride” of many component parts, a composite “bride,” and so an organization following, imitating and doing the will of the prospective Bridegroom.  w81 5/1 pp. 22-27

Which they mean by the “bridegroom”, Jesus Christ.

Is this “woman”, the wife of God, or Jesus Christ?  Which WT teaching do you adhere to?  Which do you believe is “truth” about the woman?  You deserve, yes anyone is worthy, to know the truth. 

Gal 4:22-26 tells us exactly what the “woman” represents.

“For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23 His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise.

24 These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants.

“Covenants” – a contract, compact, a testament

…a “promise”:

“ But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother.  Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. Gal 4:26,28

Can you see that the “woman” of Revelation is the New Covenant which is symbolized by “Sarah”, and includes those within it, which are the anointed as @4Jah2me pointed out?  (Gal 4:31)

They are “New Jerusalem”, because…they are the Temple.

1 Cor 3:16,17 – “Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.”

They are “heavenly”, as a new creation – “born again” in the Spirit.  2 Cor 5:17

The only “organization” that God recognizes is the Temple built on the chief cornerstone, Jesus Christ.  Eph 2:20-22

God does not need a wife.  He didn’t need an “organization” to produce Jesus Christ, which is another lie of the WT.   

To reason on this false doctrine.....
It is asserted that by means of the "heavenly wife-like organization", Christ was brought forth. It is said that these angelic Sons of God somehow gave birth to Jesus Christ, as well as the group of 144,000.
Please...according to reason and logic....
Who created these angelic sons of God in heaven? Were they not created by means of the Firstborn...the Christ? (Col 1:15-18) Yet, he himself was NOT the WIFE of Jehovah. He was God's firstborn Son, and "master worker" (Prov 8:22,30). It was through HIM that the angels were created...not the other way around (Col 1:16). Once created, these angels are also referred to, as "sons"... (not as "wife") (Job 38:7).

 So, the last remnant under the “woman” covenant is the target of the dragon.  Rev 12:17,17  He uses deceit against them – LIES, which we know are Satan’s most effective war weapons.  Rev 13:7

It looks like you, and all JWs have been lied to.

 

To learn more about the truth of the “woman”:

    Hello guest!

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@derek1956 But you just blindly serve your GB through the CCJW organisation. The so called 'truth' in the Org' changes every year. Some 'truth' is no longer 'truth' and then they say they have 'new light' with 'new truth'. That is not progression. It is not building upon a foundation. God and Christ DO NOT LIE. So why does you Org; teach lies. You need to remember that I've known the JW organisation since the 1960's and I've seen the lies and false teachings written and them removed later. Books written and used as study books, then those books suddenly removed because of the false teachings. Stumbling blocks for many.... Your Governing Body are not inspired by God's Holy Spirit. They have only recently admitted that. But they still insist that they are the Faithful and Discreet Slave. 

As for your thoughtless comment. We do have it in writing from Almighty God. We have the Holy Scriptures. 

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Using that viewpoint from the ground again I see. Did not God use 'organization to get things done ? Was it do as I say? Or was he truly a loving God, who taught ALL living life forms, even his only begotten Son? The Scriptures state that God is one of order, correct? So would it not be common sense to think this God would have great organizational skills? One may have biased hatred for those in authoritative positions in the JW system, but when it comes to Jehovah, himself, he stands alone in how he runs his house.

this things about wife who is who. Did not Jehovah make a convenant with Jesus for a kingdom? Did Jesus not turn around and make one with his faithful apostles? Being 'one' in agreement, would whatever either of them came up with be in the best interest of us as humans? All from their divine perspective, right? Not our imperfect one. So it is not what the WT came up with about who is the wife, but who is this bridegroom slash King about to bring this all down, with his Father's approval and those who have faith will benefit, correct? Traveling on that road that many, no, excuse me very few are finding. So that dissertation that I read before about the weaving of all the scriptures to try and make your point about the truth of your point, is why people need to read the Bible for themselves. You just tickled ears, like a rapper, there was no meat, only fluff. It was a desert.

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    • Eric Ouellet

      L'amour de Jéhovah nous modèle vers l'excellence de notre être 
      Ô Jéhovah, tu es notre Père. Nous sommes l’argile, et tu es notre Potier ; nous sommes tous l’œuvre de ta main. Isaie 64 :8  » Un potier a le pouvoir de faire avec l’argile le récipient qu’il désire. L’argile n’a pas son mot à dire. Il en va de même de l’homme par rapport à Dieu. Il n’est pas plus en droit de contester les actes de Dieu que l’argile du potier, qui, de ses mains, lui donne forme (lire Jérémie 18:1-6).
      Jéhovah a montré sa capacité d’agir sur l’Israël antique comme le potier agit sur l’argile. Nous notons cependant une grande différence. Le potier peut transformer sa motte d’argile en n’importe quelle sorte de récipient. Mais Jéhovah façonne-t-il arbitrairement les personnes, ou les nations, faisant les unes bonnes et les autres mauvaises ? D’après la Bible, ce n’est pas le cas. Jéhovah a doté l’homme d’une faculté très précieuse : le libre arbitre. La manière dont il exerce son autorité souveraine ne nous prive pas de cette faculté. Chacun doit décider s’il se laissera façonner par le Créateur (lire Jérémie 18:7-10).
      Et si un humain refuse obstinément de se laisser modeler, comment le Grand Potier exerce-t-il son autorité ? Pense au sort d’une argile qui devient impropre à l’usage que le potier veut en faire. Eh bien, il peut soit en faire un autre récipient soit la jeter ! Toutefois, quand l’argile est inutilisable, c’est généralement de la faute du potier. Mais en ce qui concerne notre Potier, ce n’est jamais le cas (Deut. 32:4). Quand une personne ne cède pas au modelage de Jéhovah, c’est toujours de sa faute à elle. Le Grand Potier exerce son autorité sur les humains en s’adaptant à la manière dont ils réagissent à son modelage. Ceux qui réagissent bien sont façonnés en récipients utiles. Par exemple, les chrétiens oints sont des « vases de miséricorde » qui ont été façonnés en « récipient[s] pour un usage honorable ». En revanche, ceux qui s’opposent obstinément à Dieu finissent par être des « vases de colère devenus dignes de destruction » (Rom. 9:19-23).
      Jéhovah modèle les humains notamment en les conseillant ou en les corrigeant. Voyons comment il exerce son autorité sur ceux qu’il façonne en nous intéressant aux deux premiers rois d’Israël : Saül et David. Quand David a commis l’adultère avec Bath-Shéba, il a causé du tort tant à lui-même qu’à d’autres. Jéhovah ne s’est pas retenu de le reprendre avec fermeté, il fut ainsi avec les hommes qui furent sous Sa direction. Par le prophète Nathân, il lui a adressé un message sévère (2 Sam. 12:1-12). Comment David a-t-il réagi ? Touché en plein cœur, il s’est repenti et a bénéficié de la miséricorde divine (lire 2 Samuel 12:13).
      Par contre, Saül, le roi qui a précédé David, a mal réagi aux conseils. Par l’intermédiaire du prophète Samuel, Jéhovah lui avait formellement ordonné de vouer à la destruction tous les Amaléqites et tout leur bétail. Mais Saül a désobéi. Il a épargné le roi Agag ainsi que les meilleures bêtes. Pourquoi ? Notamment pour s’attirer des louanges (1 Sam. 15:1-3, 7-9, 12). Quand il a été conseillé, il aurait dû être malléable, se laisser façonner par le Grand Potier. Mais il a résisté. Il s’est justifié, prétextant qu’il avait agi à bon droit parce que les bêtes seraient offertes en sacrifice. Il a minimisé le conseil de Samuel. Il a donc été rejeté par Jéhovah. Il ne méritait plus d’être roi et n’a jamais retrouvé de bonnes relations avec le vrai Dieu (lire 1 Samuel 15:13-15, 20-23).
      DIEU N’EST PAS PARTIAL
      Jéhovah offre la possibilité d’être façonné non seulement à des individus mais aussi à des nations. En 1513 av. n. è., les fils d’Israël, libérés de l’esclavage en Égypte, sont entrés dans une relation d’alliance avec Dieu. Étant sa nation choisie, Israël avait l’honneur d’être modelé par lui, d’être en quelque sorte sur le tour du Grand Potier. Cependant, le peuple n’a pas cessé de faire ce qui est mauvais aux yeux de Jéhovah, allant même jusqu’à rendre un culte aux dieux des nations voisines. Maintes et maintes fois, Jéhovah a envoyé des prophètes pour le ramener à la raison, mais il n’a pas écouté (Jér. 35:12-15). Son obstination lui a valu d’être sévèrement repris. Comme des « vases » devenus « dignes de destruction », le royaume du Nord, formé de dix tribus, et celui du Sud, formé de deux tribus, ont été vaincus l’un par l’Assyrie et l’autre par Babylone. Quelle leçon puissante ! Nous ne tirerons profit du façonnage de Jéhovah qu’à condition de bien y réagir.
      Jéhovah a également offert aux habitants de Ninive, la capitale assyrienne, la possibilité de tenir compte de ses avertissements. Il a dit à Jonas: « Lève-toi, va à Ninive la grande ville, et proclame contre elle que leur méchanceté est montée devant moi. » Ninive était vouée à la destruction (Jonas1:1, 2 ; 3:1-4).
      Cependant, quand Jonas a annoncé son message de condamnation, « les hommes de Ninive se mirent à avoir foi en Dieu ; ils proclamèrent alors un jeûne et se revêtirent de toiles de sac, du plus grand d’entre eux au plus petit d’entre eux ». Leur roi « se leva de son trône, ôta son vêtement officiel de dessus lui, se couvrit d’une toile de sac et s’assit dans la cendre ». Réceptifs à la tentative de modelage de Jéhovah, les Ninivites se sont repentis. Jéhovah n’a donc pas fait venir le malheur sur eux (Jonas 3:5-10).
      Bien qu’étant une nation choisie, Israël n’a pas été exempté de la correction. Les Ninivites, quant à eux, n’étaient pas dans une relation d’alliance avec Dieu. Pourtant, Jéhovah leur a adressé un message de condamnation et leur a fait miséricorde quand ils sont devenus de l’argile malléable entre ses mains. Ces deux exemples ne prouvent-ils pas que Jéhovah « ne se montre partial envers personne » ? (Deut. 10:17).
      JÉHOVAH EST RAISONNABLE ET SOUPLE
      La manière dont Dieu est disposé à nous modeler indique qu’il est raisonnable et souple. Témoin des situations où il prononce des jugements justes mais les révise ensuite selon la réaction des concernés. Au sujet du premier roi d’Israël, les Écritures déclarent que Jéhovah a « regrett[é] d’avoir fait régner Saül comme roi » (1 Sam. 15:11). La Bible dit encore que, lorsque les habitants de Ninive se sont repentis et sont revenus de leur voie mauvaise, « le vrai Dieu regretta le malheur qu’il avait parlé de leur causer ; et il ne le causa pas » (Jonas 3:10).
      Le terme hébreu traduit par « regretta » se rapporte à un changement de point de vue ou d’intention. Jéhovah a changé de point de vue à l’égard de Saül : il l’avait choisi pour être roi, mais il a fini par le rejeter. Ce changement s’est produit non parce que Jéhovah avait fait un mauvais choix, mais parce que Saül a manqué de foi et est devenu désobéissant. Le vrai Dieu a éprouvé du regret dans le cas des Ninivites : son intention à leur égard a changé. Quel réconfort de savoir que Jéhovah, notre Potier, est raisonnable et souple, compatissant et miséricordieux, prêt à réviser son jugement quand un transgresseur se réforme !
      NE REJETONS PAS LA DISCIPLINE DE JÉHOVAH
      Aujourd’hui, Jéhovah nous façonne principalement par sa Parole, la Bible, et par son organisation (2 Tim. 3:16, 17). Ne devrions-nous pas accepter tout conseil ou toute correction que nous recevons par ces moyens ? Quelles que soient les années que nous avons passées à servir Dieu, ou nos attributions de service, continuons d’accepter les conseils de Jéhovah, laissons-nous façonner en vases pour un usage honorable. 
      Le Grand Potier est notre Père. Et ne l’oublions jamais, « celui que Jéhovah aime, il le reprend, comme un père reprend le fils en qui il prend plaisir ». Alors, « ne rejettons pas [...] la discipline de Jéhovah, et n’ayons pas son blâme en aversion » (Prov. 3:11, 12).

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    • folens  »  Eric Ouellet

      Hello Eric, merci pour tes bons sujets. Bonne journée Michel
      OUI certains jours.mp4
      · 1 reply
    • Eric Ouellet

      Bâtissons chaque but de notre vie avec amour
      L'homme à toujours chercher le sens véritable de l'amour. L'homme réfléchissant à cette vertu, il sépara cette qualité en trois phases et uni en une seule.  Les millénaires passèrent et l'homme à compris que les trois phases de l'amour sont des étapes que l'on ne peut trépasser.
      La première partie est appelé" L'Éros."
      L'éros fut le premier chemin que Dieu entama dans son Esprit ( pensée en action) (verbe) intérieur avant de faire ce monde magnifique que nous vivons. L'Éros est le feu qui nous anime dans le début d'une pensée qui nous traverse l'esprit.
      L'Amour éros est une énergie très puissante, car d'elle, d'une seule image non réalisée, l'éros active cette image en rêve, uni à notre pensée et propulse dans notre vision, un rêve ultime qui nous pousse à chercher au fond de nous, le sentiment qui nous anime puissamment.
      Nous recherchons en nous d'autres images pour connaitre d'avantage cette vibration qui se manifeste, telle un feu ardent.
      D'un rêve, l'amour de ce but te pousse à créer et fonder ce rêve dans ta réalité, construire le but ultime de ta vie.
      La flamme de Yah, s'anime en toi ( Chant de Salomon)
      Le désir sexuelle ne fait pas parti de cet Amour.
      L'Éros te propulse dans tout les côtés des variantes d'un but non réalisé, dont tu ne connais point comment construire ce but qui s'anime en toi; et même comment pourrais-je réaliser ce but?
      Quand le rêve d'un projet d'avenir est dans l'Éros, il ne faut pas qu'il devienne en nous une obsession intense. Nous ne savons pas comment contrôler notre feu intérieur de ce but, de cette vision qui anime nos pensées, jour après jour et souvent dans les images de notre sommeil, elles peuvent envahir nos nuits.
      L'amour " Éros" nous confrontes à plusieurs désirs qui nous anime et qu'avec le temps nous apprenons à assembler le casse tête de la réalisation de notre vie, les pièces maîtresses de notre rêve qui nous poussent sans cesse à trouver les outils et l'instructions nécessaires à notre cheminement qui s'accomplit pendant une grande période de notre vie, pour atteindre l'objectif premier de notre vie, le vrai but que nous voulons accomplir.
      Quand notre but est assemblé, telle un film intérieur, de sa première image (début), à son dénouement et cela jusqu'à son accomplissement , alors notre rêve se voit construit dans notre esprit alors nous sommes prêt; nous pouvons commencer la deuxième étapes de l'amour qui construit notre but.
      L'AMOUR PHILIA UNE ÉTAPE TRÈS IMPORTANTE DE L'AMOUR
      La connaissance de l'amour apporte à réaliser le rêve de notre but vers la réalisation de notre projet en ce monde au bonheur de chacun.
      Les étapes de réalisation de chaque but, doit être construit avec l'Amour philia à (suivre)...

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    • Eric Ouellet

      Pour guérir notre personnalité, une petite recette intérieure doit être préparé avec minutie et avec conviction, en voici la composition:
      En premier, prend le temps de prendre conscience de l'amour que tu t'attribues à toi même. L'amour désintéressé, celle qui te lie en toi le mérite vrai de la beauté intérieure, celle de la lumière qui vibre dans ton coeur. Cette amour doit être le fondement de ta personnalité, car plus tu consacres le temps nécessaire à épanouir tes forces et que tu perpétues cette puissance universelle envers autrui. Ainsi, tu t'élèveras au-dessus de la souffrance et Il te guidera vers le chemin de l'accomplissement de ta vie.
      En deuxième, prend le temps de travailler la qualité de la patience. La patience est une vertu primordiale à ta personnalité, car elle te fait comprendre les étapes de la vie et que pas à pas, une chose à la fois tu redresseras tes faiblesses. La patience te guidera vers la maîtrise des étapes à la victoire des buts, que tu entreprends. Cette vertu t'aidera à accepter les erreurs de ta personne et de celle des autres.
      Troisièmement, trouve en toi la joie de vivre. La joie est une petite qualité à quatre lettres. Elle se situe en toi, car chaque moment de ton quotidien elle se manifeste et elle vibre de tout ton être. Elle se manifeste, dans les moments où tu vois un coucher de soleil éblouissant, dans les activités avec tes amis qui te sont chère. Quand tu réussis un travail qui t'inspire et que tu réussis l'accomplissement avec brio. À plusieurs moment la joie se manifeste et tu dois prendre conscience de ces moments, car il font parti de la positivité de ta vie. Elle t'aide à oublier les épreuves que tu dois traverser.
      Quatrièmement, une clé primordiale doit être insérée en toi, celle de la confiance. La confiance est la synergie de l'amour désintéressé. Sans la confiance ton amour vacillera avec le temps. Bâtir la confiance est un travail acharné à ton travail personnel. Cette vertu t'aide à prendre conscience de tes mérites, de te rassurer que les actions que tu fais son juste et t'empêche de regarder constamment en arrière. La confiance te donnera la force d'avancer vers l'horizon de la lumière et croire en toi. 
      Cinquièmement, le courage, est le courant qui aide à te reprendre dans les moments difficiles où la vision de tes buts que tu entreprends devient très ardu. Il t'aide à ne pas baisser les bras dans les moments où tu ne vois plus la manière de franchir une étape, un examen de conscience qui illumine ta pensée à trouver une solution réfléchit et te dire, je vais être capable de réussir. Le courage est le deuxième souffle dans ta course vers le sommet de ta personnalité intérieure.
      Sixièmement, La force fait partie du courage, l'un ne va pas sans l'autre. Le courage est le souffle, l'oxygène qui activera ta force intérieure. La force t'aide à gravir les montagnes et même à certaine étape de ta vie à soulever les montagnes pour trouver les trésors qui y sont enfouis. La force te donne la chance à balayer les nuages de la tempête et de retrouver la chaleur du soleil du bonheur venant de Dieu.
      La septième étapes , la maîtrise de soi, une vertu qui est au sommet de ces étapes intérieures. La maîtrise de soi est l'étape ultime de ta vie  (les actions justes) car par cette vertue plus rien ne fera barrière dans le chemin que tu auras voulu suivre, car les épreuves que tu auras surmonté, te guidera à devenir maître de toi même et ne faire qu'un avec toi même, unis à Dieu et à son Roi.
      La maîtrise de soi te donnera un trésor inestimable qui est celui de l'harmonie. Équanimité ( équilibre parfait) dans tous les sens de ton âme. Tu trouveras la beauté ultime de chaques éléments de la vie, ta conscience sera dans ta pensée comme un métronome parfait; La vrai vie celle de nos rêves deviendra réalité, nous deviendrons un être de lumière. La lumière qui sommeillait en toi jaïllira de toute ta personne.
      Même dans la nuit des plus grandes tempêtes, tu seras un phare éblouissant de Dieu.
       
      SUIVRENT LES INSTRUCTIONS DE NOTRE DIEU JÉHOVAH NOUS MÈNE VERS LE VRAI BONHEUR CELUI DE LA VIE ÉTERNELLE.
      2 Timothée 3: 16-17, Proverbes chapitre 1-3,Galantes 5:22,23  1Corinthien 13: 4-(8 premier phrase)
       



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