Is "dynamic energy" a Proper Translation In Isaiah 40:26?

[Arauna]

On 12/14/2020 at 5:45 PM, AlanF said:

You're simply too proud and ignorant to understand what I've said.

 Smart people can write so that even challenged people can understand what they are trying to say.  The better pone understands a subject, the simpler one can explain it.

[Arauna]

On 12/14/2020 at 5:43 PM, AlanF said:

Respectable" is a relative term.

I have a brother who is a mathematician, a computer programmer, and a analytical chemist specializing in carbon life..... He also was a toxicologist doing research on poisons. I know that he laughs at the dating methods of evolution because of the compensations in the calculations. He is a JW.  He also has a friend who is a analytical chemist with a PHD in water.  He is also a JW.  So yes there are  JWs who are respectable scientists (without the ego which you seem to think is the most important qualification) who believe the bible to be reality. 

I also know of of many Geologists who can prove that the 'layers of the earth' gives evidence of a world-wide flood and not evolution because there is too much phenomena that evolution cannot explain - but makes sense when one examines the evidence which is in the layers of the earth. The deposits of the fossils in graveyards which are hundreds of miles long, the mix of the animals in some graveyards, volcanic actions during the flood, movement of the Teutonic plates etc. 

There are many scientists who do not have the "herd" mentality.  The are not afraid to stand out.

[Srecko Sostar]

4 minutes ago, Arauna said:

On 12/14/2020 at 5:43 PM, AlanF said:

Far more believe God created the entire universe 6,000 years ago.

This is a blatant lie - Your speak of your own originality as it is you who wish to paint JWs as idiots.

Even the silliest people know that the earth and heavens cannot have been created in 6000 years.  However, JWs accept that the earth itself was prepared in 6 epochs called "days" and the entire period of preparation of the earth is also called a day. 

I am not familiar with idea (that some JW believed) how all Universe is created in 6000 years. But remember well how official teachings was changed from: 1 Creation Day is 7000 years, to 1 Creation Day is unknown period.    

Perhaps because of Bible verse how one day before is 1000 years and vice versa, perhaps existed people who believed in 1 Creation Day is 1000 years long.

There is, as we have seen, good reason to believe that the days of creation were each 7,000 years long. - https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1970123

In the Bible account, each of the six creative days could have lasted for thousands of years. - https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/g201403/untold-story-of-creation/

Perhaps it is better to read some science book about how Earth and life on Earth is old, and how Universe is old. :))

 

[Arauna]

On 12/14/2020 at 5:45 PM, AlanF said:

They all come from the same roots -- something big and strong.

Jehovah is that something big and strong!

[Arauna]

On 12/12/2020 at 5:37 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

Power

True - power can also refer to a latent power. But the power of God is always active and moving.  It gives life and comes from a "living " god..

[AlanF]

Arauna said:

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On 12/14/2020 at 9:43 AM, AlanF said:
Far more [Christians] believe God created the entire universe 6,000 years ago.

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This is a blatant lie - Your speak of your own originality as it is you who wish to paint JWs as idiots.

JWs mostly are idiots like you. And again you prove this by having no idea what you're talking about. And you can barely read with comprehension. Do JWs believe the entire universe was created 6,000 years ago? NO!

It is a fact that something like 40% of Americans -- not just fundamentalists and evangelicals, but AMERICANS -- believe in Young-Earth Creationism, i.e., that the entire universe was created by fiat some 6,000 years ago.

As for JW beliefs, I grew up as a JW on the notion of "7,000-year creative days", which meant that life began to be created some 27,000 years ago. That doctrine has never been rescinded; therefore it is current JW doctrine.

You don't think so? Then tell us, please, where in Watchtower literature the "7,000-year" notion was rescinded. How do you think Fred Franz concluded that 1975 was to be the end of 6,000 years of human history?

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Even the silliest people know that the earth and heavens cannot have been created in 6000 years.

Which is why Young-Earth creationists are among the most stupid people today. Or more correctly, brainwashed by their literal-minded religious leaders, just like JWs are misled about all sorts of things.

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However, JWs accept that the earth itself was prepared in 6 epochs called "days" and the entire period of preparation of the earth is also called a day.

Yes, and those "epochs" were exactly 7,000 years long. That's why it's easy to prove that JWs believe life was created beginning 27,000 years ago. Go backwards from today: 6,000 years of the 7th day; 7,000 years each for days 6, 5 and 4; that adds up to 27,000 (of course, the "6,000" figure is approximate).

I'll warrant you don't even know how that 7,000-year figure was originally calculated by Russell and later by Fred Franz.

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  On 12/14/2020 at 9:43 AM, AlanF said:
Like my debunking of the Watchtower's claim that Isaiah wrote about E=mc^2.

I have seen very little debunking

 

Nonsense. The fact is that you've refused to acknowledge the debunkings. You've merely dismissed the debunkings without comment, or by sidestepping what I actually said. Proof? You can point to no post debunking my debunking.

and much more insults any very little science coming from you!

You know almost nothing of science. "Watchtower science" is NOT science. And in case you missed it, when I insult people who deserve to be insulted, I almost always accompany the insults with provable exposition.

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You have not yet explained the Cambrian explosion......

Of course I did. Must I supply you with the page number of the thread?

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One layer of earth wherein all  the different animals appear fully formed.

That, all by itself, proves that you don't even know what you're arguing against. Where do you get the notion that there is one such layer?

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Can you explain this process?

It requires a book-length treatment. I already gave you the title of best book I'm aware of on this: 

The Cambrian Explosion: The Construction of Animal Biodiversity, by Douglas Erwin and James Valentine, 2013. Available on Amazon.

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Please debunk this without insults and without exulting in your superior intellect...

You'll have to read the book; I can't do it in a forum like this, as it takes hundreds of pages that include charts and pictures. In the meantime you can learn something from the Wikipedia link I already gave you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambrian_explosion#:~:text=The Cambrian explosion or Cambrian,of most modern metazoan phyla.

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or changing the subject because you usually answer with an unrelated question.

Nonsense. I often give comprehensive answers that include supplementary material germane to the discussion. The fact that ignorant JWs like you don't recognize supplementary material is immaterial.

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  On 12/14/2020 at 2:06 PM, AlanF said:
to allow quarks to join up into protons and neutrons,

first there was energy - then came all the "other" stuff. 

 

So what? It still has nothing to do with Isaiah.
 

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  On 12/14/2020 at 2:06 PM, AlanF said:
the universe became transparent to light.

That is what happened on earth as well.

 

You know that how? Certainly not from Watchtower speculations going back to C. T. Russell.

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After the cooling of the atmosphere the expanse had to be cleared up for the light from the sun to shine through.  

You obviously don't even know what the "expanse" was supposed to be. Again, Watchtower speculations are demonstrably wrong.

Look up the definition of "expanse" in a decent Hebrew-English lexicon. You'll find that it comes from the Hebrew raqia, which basically means "something beaten out flat", like a bronze shield that a metal worker beats out to make it flat. The usage in Genesis refers to the sky, which certainly looks to an observer on the ground like a huge blue shield -- something beaten out flat. Raqia does NOT refer to a three dimensional structure like the atmosphere.

[Arauna]

1 hour ago, AlanF said:

Whatever. Still has nothing to do with what the Bible says: "power, strength" in the sense of The Incredible Hulk, NOT "dynamic energy" in the sense of E=mc^2.

Why the denial?    The Spirit of God is always active energy.  But suit yourself......You even argue about a "circle " and turn it into a "ball' just to deflect the truth.... anything to avoid acknowledgement of the bible.

[AlanF]

Arauna said:

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On 12/14/2020 at 9:45 AM, AlanF said:
You're simply too proud and ignorant to understand what I've said.

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Smart people can write so that even challenged people can understand what they are trying to say.  The better pone understands a subject, the simpler one can explain it.

Of course, and I make every attempt to do that. What you seem to forget -- really, you deliberately ignore -- is that you and most of your fellow JWs make little or no attempt to understand what I and other science expositors say, but only look for ways to sidestep, ignore or forget what is said. Your refusal to look up the material I supplied you days ago on the Cambrian Explosion proves my point.

[AlanF]

Arauna said:

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On 12/14/2020 at 9:43 AM, AlanF said:
Respectable" is a relative term.

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I have a brother who is a mathematician, a computer programmer, and a analytical chemist specializing in carbon life..... He also was a toxicologist doing research on poisons. I know that he laughs at the dating methods of evolution because of the compensations in the calculations. He is a JW.

The fact that he is a JW is the reason he laughs.

Most proper scientists have no issues with the many dating methods for ancient stuff. The fact that you call them "the dating methods of evolution" again proves your overriding ignorance. Such methods were not invented, nor are they used, merely for the purpose of proving evolution. They were invented to understand the timing of ancient events. Once the methods became available and generally reliable, biologists used them to date events in the evolution of life.

Your comments here are absolute stereotypes of Young-Earth Creationist writings.

Furthermore, dating methods are cross-checked with other methods. When two or more give the same answers, we can be sure that they're both good. When there are discrepancies, investigation is done, and one or both methods are not used until the discrepancies are resolved.

For example, radiocarbon dating has undergone extensive cross-checking with archaeological dating and other methods. The most useful is tree-ring dating -- dendrochronology. This has resulted in a table of corrections to radiocarbon dates for the last 10,000 years, so that there are "radiocarbon years" and "actual years". People use such charts to apply a correction factor to radiocarbon dates.

Cross-checking is also done by methods like the count of varves in old freshwater lakes, and the count of ice layers in the ice of Greenland and Antarctica.

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He also has a friend who is a analytical chemist with a PHD in water.  He is also a JW.

And of course, these guys have written papers debunking dating methods like radiocarbon.

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So yes there are  JWs who are respectable scientists (without the ego which you seem to think is the most important qualification) who believe the bible to be reality.

So what? There are Young-Earth Creationists with Ph.D. degrees who reject science in favor of literal biblical interpretation.

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I also know of of many Geologists who can prove that the 'layers of the earth' gives evidence of a world-wide flood and not evolution because there is too much phenomena that evolution cannot explain - but makes sense when one examines the evidence which is in the layers of the earth.

Sure -- Young-Earth Creationists all.

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The deposits of the fossils in graveyards which are hundreds of miles long, the mix of the animals in some graveyards, volcanic actions during the flood, movement of the Teutonic plates etc.

All of their "interpretations" -- which are really nothing more than rationalizations about why their Young-Earth views are right -- are seen to be complete nonsense when careful, non-braindead scientists examine them.

"Teutonic plates"??? I love it!

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There are many scientists who do not have the "herd" mentality.  The are not afraid to stand out.

Sure. And such ones believe nonsense like a 6,000-year-old universe.

[AlanF]

Srecko sostar said:

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  On 12/14/2020 at 9:43 AM, AlanF said:
Far more believe God created the entire universe 6,000 years ago.

I am not familiar with idea (that some JW believed) how all Universe is created in 6000 years.

 

JWs have never believed that -- it's a Young Earth Creationist belief.

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But remember well how official teachings was changed from: 1 Creation Day is 7000 years, to 1 Creation Day is unknown period.

You're not remembering correctly. The 7,000-year creative day doctrine has never been rescinded. All that the Watchtower Society has done is to begin, in the mid-1980s, to sometimes refer to the length of the creative days as "millennia long". How long is that? Could be 7,000 years. Could be 100 million. Since they never rescinded the belief, the explicit teaching of 7,000-year creative days remains official Watchtower doctrine.

Now, why do you suppose the JW organization switched from "7,000 years" to "millennia"?

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Perhaps because of Bible verse how one day before is 1000 years and vice versa, perhaps existed people who believed in 1 Creation Day is 1000 years long.

Well that's a bit confused. The fact is that belief in magical 1,000 and 7,000 year periods goes back at least to 1,000 BCE, to the ancient Persian Zoroastrian religion. Such ideas were later adopted into Judaism during the period of Persian rule. Eventually the notion that the last creative day was 7,000 years long was adopted by Jewish Apocalypticism, and later by Christians. The apocryphal book The Epistle of Barnabas (ca. 100 CE) set all this out explicitly: 6,000 years of human toil in a sinful world, following by 1,000 years of peace in Christ's millennial reign. C. T. Russell was familiar with all this, including the pagan roots of the belief, but he adopted it for Bible Student doctrine anyway.

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There is, as we have seen, good reason to believe that the days of creation were each 7,000 years long. - https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1970123

In the Bible account, each of the six creative days could have lasted for thousands of years. - https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/g201403/untold-story-of-creation/

 

Yes, these references show how the doctrine was emasculated in the 1980s.

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Perhaps it is better to read some science book about how Earth and life on Earth is old, and how Universe is old. :))

Good luck getting JWs to do that.

[AlanF]

Arauna said:

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 On 12/14/2020 at 9:45 AM, AlanF said:
They all come from the same roots -- something big and strong.

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Jehovah is that something big and strong!

Which is again irrelevant to showing that Isaiah's words refer to E=mc^2.

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On 12/12/2020 at 9:37 AM, Srecko Sostar said:
Power

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True - power can also refer to a latent power. But the power of God is always active and moving.  It gives life and comes from a "living " god..

Again completely irrelevant.

You really have brothers who are scientists? What happened to you?

[Arauna]

23 minutes ago, AlanF said:

mostly are idiots like you.

Thanks for the compliment.....  If someone with more intelligence had said that I would have thought about it and tried to improve.

 

24 minutes ago, AlanF said:

three dimensional structure like the atmosphere.

Thank you- I was looking for the right word.   I am learning my umpteenth language at present - so I forget some of the precise words in the language used here on the forum.  It does not mean that I do not understand exactly how things work.  You are trying to be a smarty pants now by correcting my language.

28 minutes ago, AlanF said:

You know that how?

Apart from common sense - which I often use - it is also in some of our publications.

 

29 minutes ago, AlanF said:

You'll have to read the book

I suggest you read one or two books against evolution - you may get a surprise. Since Dawkins wrote his book, many really smart people have written books debunking evolution - mathematicians, Nano-technologists, DNA specialists etc. Face it : evolution is really more of a religious theory than a science. 

34 minutes ago, AlanF said:

requires a book-length treatment.

Really - but the fossil record is totally remiss of all the interim phases..... so why should I read a book that is not based on evidence...... just a theory?   I prefer the fossil evidence - which indicates that all animals appeared fully formed.

40 minutes ago, AlanF said:

"epochs" were exactly 7,000 years long.

You should check your mathematics and your reasoning!  If the 7th day is 7000 years long (6000 + 1000 years) - and all the days are equally long -  then that gives 7000 years times 7 weekdays   which amounts to 49,000 years - not 27000 years.  Which actually mirrors the number of of biblical years BEFORE the jubilee year .... and the 50th year IS THE jubilee year. 

So AFTER the 1000 year reign of Christ (which is also called a "rest" day or is the judgement day)   we may have a Jubilee based on the actual number of years of creation days........ but I am prepared to wait to have that one to be confirmed.

50 minutes ago, AlanF said:

act that ignorant JWs like you don't recognize supplementary material

I do not accept any supplementary material as important - it must give enough evidence...... whereas scholars often accept weak material which suits their need to prove something.... they usually leave out the stuff they cannot answer.