SECULAR EVIDENCE and NEO-BABYLONIAN CHRONOLOGY (Nebuchadnezzar, Cyrus, etc.)

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, scholar JW said:

I am not aware of such regnal data being located with modern calendars published in the academic literature for the very first time.         You should learn a lesson from this

I did learn a lesson: That you were not aware of something already published in the 1930's and 1940's, and thought it was first published in the WT in the 1960's. Yet it was so simple to find older scholarship on the subject that even an non-scholar like me could find out easily. Also I see that pieces of the answer could be found in various places dating back to 1911, and the late 1800's. Even the Jewish Encyclopedia in early editions had the Gregorian date within 3 days, somehow averaging the Julian and Gregorian difference of 6 days (likely related to a different conversion method, or starting the divergence between Julian/Gregorian from a different date in their own A.M. calendar.

The American Journal of Semitic Languages and Literatures

Vol. 27, No. 3 (Apr., 1911), pp. 233-266 (34 pages)

[scholar JW]

JW Insider

4 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Nonsense. It is precisely because this "regnal formula" does not include "King of Babylon" that you should not ignore the formula. Besides, look at how the WTS treats such "formulas" to mean something else, like "with reference to his kingship as it affected the Jewish nation." For Daniel 2:1, you have an example of this in INSIGHT:

*** it-1 p. 1186 Image ***
In the second year of Nebuchadnezzar’s kingship (evidently counting from the time of his conquest of Jerusalem in 607 B.C.E.)

You've already seen Witnesses on this very topic claiming that this would have been shortly after Daniel's exile, which could be dated to about 605 BCE in the standard chronology. That would make this verse mean 603 BCE (standard). The WT claims that this 2nd year mentioned in Daniel 2:1 is about 605 BCE, and that the "real" second year of Nebuchadnezzar is about 622 BCE (WT chronology).

*** it-1 p. 190 Ashdod ***
Nebuchadnezzar, whose rule began in 624 B.C.E

Nonsense. You are confused.

The prophet Daniel gives several regnal formulae in his book, each of which must be fully accounted both historically and chronologically in order to provide an accurate scheme and this is what WT scholars have done successfully. With such formulae or regnal dates we can now know the date for the Return, the date of the Fall, the beginning and end of the Gentile Times, the end of the Divided monarchy and the timing of the Messiah and its 70 years all of which relate to the Danielic regnal dates.

scholar JW

[scholar JW]

JW Insider

1 minute ago, JW Insider said:

I did learn a lesson: That you were not aware of something already published in the 1930's and 1940's, and thought it was first published in the WT in the 1960's. Yet it was so simple to find older scholarship on the subject that even an non-scholar like me could find out easily. Also I see that pieces of the answer could be found in various places dating back to 1911, and the late 1800's. Even the Jewish Encyclopedia in early editions had the Gregorian date within 3 days, somehow averaging the Julian and Gregorian difference of 6 days (likely related to a different conversion method, or starting the divergence between Julian/Gregorian from a different date in their own A.M. calendar.

Have you not learnt anything?

The simple fact is that those WT scholars even in the earliest of times have put modern day dates in modern calenders-Julian/Gregorian to ancient, historic events for the benefit of modern readers today interested in the fulfillment of Bible prophecy for the very first time!!!!

scholar JW

[JW Insider]

9 minutes ago, scholar JW said:

Your argument is flawed because whatever the case, the date 537 BCE with its seventh has been demonstrated in our many publications as being sound historically and chronologically as it forms part of the interwoven strands of that strong cable.

It can't be that "sound" or "strong" if you are willing to move the whole decree forward by a year to insert a full year for Darius. The entire strength is built on what the INSIGHT book calls "likely" and yet INSIGHT waffles between late 538 and 537, and uses a preparation and travel schedule that would have allowed the Jews to be back in their cities in the seventh month of 538. Note the argument that Arauna makes that the decree MUST have been in the very earliest month of 538. The WTS publications cannot deny that she probably has a good point here.

[JW Insider]

2 minutes ago, scholar JW said:

those WT scholars even in the earliest of times have put modern day dates in modern calenders-Julian/Gregorian to ancient, historic events for the benefit of modern readers today

Yes. Just like  Bible commentators all over Judaism and Christendom.  But especially 19th century preachers and  Second Adventists who wanted to overcome Jesus' words that no one knows the day or the hour.

[scholar JW]

JW Insider

29 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

It can't be that "sound" or "strong" if you are willing to move the whole decree forward by a year to insert a full year for Darius. The entire strength is built on what the INSIGHT book calls "likely" and yet INSIGHT waffles between late 538 and 537, and uses a preparation and travel schedule that would have allowed the Jews to be back in their cities in the seventh month of 538. Note the argument that Arauna makes that the decree MUST have been in the very earliest month of 538. The WTS publications cannot deny that she probably has a good point here.

WT Chronology is 'strong' because it works, it alone is functional allowing the honest-hearted to understand where one lays in the stream of time, seeing modern day fulfillment of Bible prophecy. Chronology is simply a mode of interpretation, it is not an absolute but simply relative relying on the history presented albeit not perfect. 'Likely' is good enough for me for if it works then that is all that I require for it is far superior to 'dead-end' NB Chronology which also is imperfect and contains many 'gaps' despite the preponderance of astronomical data also subject to interpretation.

Chronology is always going to be problematic in some areas and that is why Jehovah God has given to his people four prophetic witnesses even at the hands of an Angel, a strong Cable of sacred Bible Chronology corevealed in his Word.

scholar JW

[scholar JW]

JW Insider

36 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Yes. Just like  Bible commentators all over Judaism and Christendom.  But especially 19th century preachers and  Second Adventists who wanted to overcome Jesus' words that no one knows the day or the hour.

But those WT scholars have given us a modern calendrical date for the Return in 537 BCE!!! Hallelujah!

scholar JW

[JW Insider]

5 hours ago, scholar JW said:

Such a date is prophetically established culminating in 1914 CE

You keep showing your "cards" which is why it is so easy to see the reason you keep bluffing.

5 hours ago, scholar JW said:

The problematic 586/7 BCE dilemma is because scholars rely on NB Chronology . . .susceptible to failure and disappointment- the Devil's work!!

If it goes against 1914, it doesn't matter how strong that cable of chronology is, it's the Devil's work!

That's it in a nut-shell and in a nuts-hell, isn't it?

So. I'll give in and discuss the Watchtower chronology, not just the secular chronology here. (What will follow after this post however will likely show why I didn't want this to be a Biblical discussion yet.)

It turns out that the NB Chronology supports the Bible's version of events very well. The Bible says that Babylon would be dominant in the region for 70 years, and the Bible was right. The Bible is saying that all these exiles (deportations) would be associated with those 70 years. And yes, there was an important exile when Jerusalem was destroyed, and another bigger one 10 years prior to that, and another one almost as big 5 years after that date, and likely another one around 20 years before that date. The last reported exile of Jews from the land was in the 23rd year of Nebuchadnezzar, yet the Watchtower publications are forced to make claims that ignore this one, and are therefore are not supported in the Bible:

*** it-1 p. 463 Chronology ***

Jerusalem came under final siege in Zedekiah’s 9th year (609 B.C.E.), and the city fell in his 11th year (607 B.C.E.), corresponding to Nebuchadnezzar’s 19th year of actual rule (counting from his accession year in 625 B.C.E.). (2Ki 25:1-8) In the fifth month of that year (the month of Ab, corresponding to parts of July and August) the city was set afire, the walls were pulled down, and the majority of the people were led off into exile. However, “some of the lowly people of the land” were allowed to remain, and these did so until the assassination of Gedaliah, Nebuchadnezzar’s appointee, whereupon they fled into Egypt, finally leaving Judah completely desolate. (2Ki 25:9-12, 22-26) This was in the seventh month, Ethanim (or Tishri, corresponding to parts of September and October). Hence the count of the 70 years of desolation must have begun about October 1, 607 B.C.E., ending in 537 B.C.E. By the seventh month of this latter year the first repatriated Jews arrived back in Judah, 70 years from the start of the full desolation of the land.

The idea that Judah was completely desolate when Jerusalem was destroyed is contradicted by the fact that the land could not have been fully desolated until at least the 23rd year of Nebuchadnezzar . Almost as many were taken in the 23rd year as the 18th year:

(Jeremiah 52:28-30) . . .These are the people whom Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar took into exile: in the seventh year, 3,023 Jews. 29 In the 18th year of Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar, 832 people were taken from Jerusalem. 30 In the 23rd year of Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar, Neb·uʹzar·adʹan the chief of the guard took Jews into exile, 745 people. In all, 4,600 people were taken into exile.

So we can either accept the Bible chronology which doesn't begin the final desolation of the land until at least NEB23, or we can accept the WT chronology which puts the full desolation of the land in NEB18 (or NEB19 if counting from accession year). Personally, it makes no difference to me which Julian or Gregorian dates that scholars and Christendom and the WTS have put on these events. For me the choice is between the Bible chronology and the Watchtower chronology here. The secular chronology just happens to fit the Bible chronology, but that isn't necessarily so important. In fact this difference of a few years doesn't matter, as long as the WT is not insistent that the mistakes that got it to this point were somehow divinely guided. 

There are actually very, very few areas where I find I must conscientiously choose between the Watchtower and the Bible, but this is one. Another area where I have to accept the Bible account over the WT account is the idea that Jesus was given more authority in 1914 than he had when he claimed all authority in heaven and on earth. I prefer to believe what Paul said about Jesus ruling as king from God's right hand in the first century. (1 Cor 15:25)

It's a simple choice for my own conscience here again: Bible chronology or Watchtower chronology? I find that I can remain a Witness and still advocate for the Bible on these points, although not in the congregation where it would cause unnecessary divisions and contentions. But that is just my own conscience. Some might think it's important enough to advocate within the congregation, but I see this as giving too much attention to false stories and genealogies:

(1 Timothy 1:4) . . .nor to pay attention to false stories and to genealogies. Such things end up in nothing useful but merely give rise to speculations rather than providing anything from God in connection with faith.

I'm not imposing my conscience on anyone else, although I am glad to give an account of my reasons:

(1 Peter 3:15) . . .always ready to make a defense before everyone who demands of you a reason for the hope you have. . .

[JW Insider]

45 minutes ago, scholar JW said:

WT Chronology is 'strong' because it works, it alone is functional allowing the honest-hearted to understand where one lays in the stream of time, seeing modern day fulfillment of Bible prophecy.

As others have pointed out, if the WT chronology is strong because it works, then it must be weak because it doesn't work. The entire reason, as you keep admitting, is so that 1914 will work. But 1914 doesn't work. Recall that 1914 was predicted to be the end of the Gentile Times. What was predicted failed. The Gentile Times did not end, no matter how many times CC keeps repeating that the Jews took over Palestine in or about 1914. The End of the Gentile Times was predicted to be the total collapse within a few months, and by the end of 1915 at the latest, of all authority within all national governments, kingdoms, and human political institutions around the entire world except for one. That one government that would would not collapse in 1914 would be a Jewish kingdom in Palestine that would not collapse like all the others and would be the only remaining kingdom on earth. The Gentile's time had ended, and only a Jewish government in Palestine would be successful in 1914.

So, one of the biggest failures of the 1914 "prophecy" was the claim that it would be the "end of the Gentile Times." The WTS actually had to change the definition of this phrase to make it seem like the prophecy had not failed.

[Ann O'Maly]

15 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

The idea that Judah was completely desolate when Jerusalem was destroyed is contradicted by the fact that the land could not have been fully desolated until at least the 23rd year of Nebuchadnezzar .

And Ezekiel 33:21-29 shows that in the December/January following Jerusalem's destruction there were inhabitants living in Jerusalem's ruins. God instructed Ezekiel to tell them a message.

[scholar JW]

Ann O'Maly

28 minutes ago, Ann O'Maly said:

  56 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

The idea that Judah was completely desolate when Jerusalem was destroyed is contradicted by the fact that the land could not have been fully desolated until at least the 23rd year of Nebuchadnezzar .

Wrong. Utter nonsense.The historical record via Josephus and the prophecies of Jeremiah make it quite clear that the land was made completely desolate at the time of the Fall in 607 BCE which was foretold to last  exactly 70 years as also confirmed by the historian Ezra, the Chronicler. Neb in his 23rd year simply took Jews into Exile, those that already had fled outside of Judah.

35 minutes ago, Ann O'Maly said:

And Ezekiel 33:21-29 shows that in the December/January following Jerusalem's destruction there were inhabitants living in Jerusalem's ruins. God instructed Ezekiel to tell them a message.

These verses simply reflect a report of events that had already occurred with the Fall in 607 BCE, news of which reached Ezekiel with such a prophecy reinforcing the fact that the land not only would be uninhabited but was in fact now uninhabited.

scholar JW

[scholar JW]

JW Insider

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

As others have pointed out, if the WT chronology is strong because it works, then it must be weak because it doesn't work. The entire reason, as you keep admitting, is so that 1914 will work. But 1914 doesn't work. Recall that 1914 was predicted to be the end of the Gentile Times. What was predicted failed. The Gentile Times did not end, no matter how many times CC keeps repeating that the Jews took over Palestine in or about 1914. The End of the Gentile Times was predicted to be the total collapse within a few months, and by the end of 1915 at the latest, of all authority within all national governments, kingdoms, and human political institutions around the entire world except for one. That one government that would would not collapse in 1914 would be a Jewish kingdom in Palestine that would not collapse like all the others and would be the only remaining kingdom on earth. The Gentile's time had ended, and only a Jewish government in Palestine would be successful in 1914.

Nope. it works therefore it is that strong cable as it led to the ending of the Gentile Times in 1914 CE a reality proved by the outbreak of the Great War with the birth of God's Heavenly Kingdom . You need not only to properly understand History and Chronology but Biblical Theology namely Salvation History.

scholar JW