SECULAR EVIDENCE and NEO-BABYLONIAN CHRONOLOGY (Nebuchadnezzar, Cyrus, etc.)

[Ann O'Maly]

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

I think you must go challenge someone else. It is about ego for you - not about the truth of the bible.  I read a scripture today about "contentious" ones...... one cannot reason with them. 

 

Haha. That's right, there is no reasoning with those who reject the truth. Stuffed shirts like CC, who have little interest in truth, deserve to be popped. I do what I can. 😉

[Srecko Sostar]

3 hours ago, César Chávez said:

There's a difference between hating a person and hating the actions and behavior that person demonstrates. If you haven't figured out Jesus words by now with loving thy enemy, it doesn't mean what you think it means. 

That just means to stay away from such a bad actor, so you don't become corrupted and receive bad influence. So, your Morris illustration is as false as you are in that regard.

difference between hating a person and hating the actions and behavior that person demonstrates

Aha, that is what JW video instruct JW member: Mother don't hate dfd daughter but she hates picking up a ringing phone :))

"Morris illustration" is an example of what should be avoided at all costs. What would it be: Jesus was a weak teacher to Morris? Or did Morris learn nothing from Jesus?

We two, are on safe "social distance". I will not be influenced by you, and you will not by me. So, we just "chat" about doctrines and interpretations...and show to known and unknown readers of our posts where we are in a "stream of thoughts and ideas". Is this ok with you?

[JW Insider]

12 hours ago, César Chávez said:

The people that can't handle the truth are the ones that get exposed with their lies just like you were exposed with your nonsense of 15 degrees that you continue to avoid and evade.

PROJECTION:

If we include Allen Smith##, Billy the Kid, etc., in the count, I think you just reached example number 1,000!!

We should have some kind of celebration.

Wikipedia:

Psychological projection is a defense mechanism in which the ego defends itself against unconscious impulses or qualities (both positive and negative) by denying their existence in themselves by attributing them to others.^[1] . . .  It incorporates blame shifting and can manifest as shame dumping.^[2]

[AlanF]

On 12/24/2020 at 1:24 PM, scholar JW said:

Alan de Fool

Your answer was incomplete so again try again!!!

scholar JW

Wrong. Quit lying.

[AlanF]

On 12/25/2020 at 12:51 AM, Arauna said:

CC let them stew in their own " self-importance" and self-deceit....... and go and mislead others.   They will not mislead us.  I have looked at this again and again and found their nit-picking to be without substance.  I have actually lost some  respect for them, that which I had when I started on this forum.

The reason, they only debate, but do not fully understand the main theme of the bible and the importance if the chronology time line as the JWs understand it (with the help of Jehovah) right now.  They give credence to secular scholars but reject the bible's own chronology. This is why they come up with ideas which say that 1914 is bogus, the interpretation of nebuchadrezzar dream is bogus, the signs of 'perousia' are bogus etc. Etc. ...... and some dare to think of themselves as "enlightened" or scholarly witnesses.

JW teachings are crucial to understand the thinking of jehovah and how jehovah cares about us. He wants us to understand where we are in the stream of time to keep active and our hope secure.

Our timeline  fits in with the time-line of the 7 heads of the beast - something which they have not looked at or consider important because they do not accept WW1 and league of nations as a "sign"  they do not accept WW2 and creation of UN as part of the "sign"....  .during perousia..

We are already living under the "image if the beast" ...... which soon will receive more power (like an 8th king) and they do not even consider how this fits into what ithey are debating. They are focussing on only one room of an entire ocean liner (Titanic) while the entire boat is sinking. They are so busy debating about one room that they do not notice the final signs, which is part of this time-line of succession of the "beasts" and image of the beast which takes place during the "perousia".  

Then you have " self-heroes like alanf" with his scoffing and name-calling ( like an off-key chorus in the background.)..... quite a crazy way to dominate a conversation...... lol. 

Does this bring them in line for life under Jehovah's government?  Definitely not.  This is a futile exercise ........ being an expert in one part of the boat and not taking note of the ENTIRE boat. 

Yet another contentless diatribe.

[Arauna]

On 12/27/2020 at 3:42 AM, scholar JW said:

And according to INSIGHT, you can't get 539 without readings from astronomy.

That is a blatant LIE - which I am surprised you are stooping to.  But I have discovered your ego will push you to deceive in order to be right.  Olympiads lead to this date without astronomy.  Astronomy is just an additional proof NOT the main evidence for this date.

[JW Insider]

2 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Olympiads lead to this date without astronomy.

How? If you can't answer I assume you just made this up.

You seem to have this idea that you must be right at all costs, and you won't let facts get in the way.

My father always jokes: "My mind is made up, don't confuse me with the facts!"

[AlanF]

On 12/26/2020 at 9:24 AM, Anna said:

I saw you mention to someone that the whole thing could be figured out in less than a day. This is proof that I must be dumb and need an"explanation for dummies" like the type they do on YouTube, with diagrams and cute pictures 😂

I would not expect something like that from you since you are well above that. Perhaps if you viewed me as your 6 year old grandchild it might work 😁

 

You're far from dumb. Just miseducated by the Watchtower Society.

Here's a simplified explanation of why Watchtower chronology is wrong: "Biblical Evidence Against Watchtower Society Chronology" : https://ad1914.com/biblical-evidence-against-watchtower-society-chronology/

[Arauna]

On 12/27/2020 at 4:04 AM, scholar JW said:

Bible states clearly 70 years, plain and simple. t

Absolutely true - It is not the different groups that were removed from the land which the focus should be on but the destruction of Jerusalem as symbol of the Davidic kingdom and the destruction of the temple - Jehovah's worship on earth by his people. The Judeans thought the temple would never (be allowed by Jehovah)  be destroyed. A very sparse population remained and it became desolate land with no ' nation' dedicated to jehovah (to bring yearly sacrifices) to occupy it.  Any other strong nation could have moved in .....but Jehovah did not allow it.  For all purposes it was desolate ... people would whistle when they walked through the land.

On 12/27/2020 at 4:04 AM, scholar JW said:

Judah's servitude or 'serving' was of a duration specifically of 70 years as foretold specifically by Jeremiah.

The ten tribes had already been taken away and displaced  by Assyria when they were the world power.  Many of the peoples in the cities around Jerusalem has also been removed. Juda / Jerusalem was the capital of the Davidic kingdom.  David sat on the throne of Jehovah - this is why the kingdom in Juda (Davidic) was finally broken when Zedekia was removed.   The true heir to this Davidic throne (Jesus) would appear millennia later. 

On 12/27/2020 at 4:04 AM, scholar JW said:

please supply the specific 70 year periods for each one of those nations

Jehovah was mainly concerned about Juda and its disloyalty.  It was a punishment for their extreme disobedience and a prophecy about their return to Jerusalem.  Other nations were also punished by Nebuchadnezzar such as Tyre -  babylon were dug in around Tyre for 15 years!!!  So where can the 70 years of Tyre's  desolation be found?

One should not lose focus as regards the main theme of the bible - which is about the legitimate sovereignty of Jehovah over his dedicated people (and the king on his throne) and the restoration of his worship.  When the temple was destroyed - the kingship and worship was destroyed. When they could worship there again the desolation of the land was removed.  

 But if you say it is about other nations also yes - then give the 70 years the other nations spent in exile.

The biblical chronology only has a problem when one tries to slot in the secular dates. the 70 years then becomes 50 years. 

 

[Arauna]

53 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

If you can't answer I assume you just made this up.

My dear - your arrogance astounds me once again as much as your patronizing ways. You are the one deviating from the bible in addition to twisting ' rephrased lines' from watchtowers to suit your agenda.  Astronomy is not the only way to discover the truth about  530 BCE.... 

"ancient historians such as Diodorus, Africanus and Eusebius show that Cyrus’ first year as king of Persia corresponded to Olympiad 55, year 1 (560/59 B.C.E.), while Cyrus’ last year is placed at Olympiad 62, year 2 (531/30 B.C.E.). (The years of Olympiads ran from approximately July 1 to the following June 30.)"

The Greeks figured time by means of four-year periods called Olympiads, starting from the first Olympiad, calculated as beginning in 776 B.C.E.

The insight book also has interesting things to say about Olympiads.  I also gave you the name of a book above which indicates that one cannot always trust astronomical writings in ancient time to produce accurate results.  But I guess you prefer those astronomical calculations above that of the bible because it proves your own brilliance and exposes large flaws in JW chronology !!  There is NO way you can be wrong.  JWs must be wrong because you know their weaknesses......  Familiarity breeds contempt !

 

[JW Insider]

20 minutes ago, Arauna said:

The biblical chronology only has a problem when one tries to slot in the secular dates. the 70 years then becomes 50 years. 

The Biblical chronology has no problem at all here. The 70 years actually fits the 70 years from around 609 to 539. The Watchtower chronology has a big problem in that it tries to fit 90 years for Babylonian dominance, claiming that Babylon began to dominate between 629 and 625, according to the INSIGHT book, as already quoted several times.

Through increasing lives lost, exiles, taking of treasures from the temple, burning down the Temple, and continuing to take exiles even five years after the Temple was destroyed, it is obvious that Judea suffered through the entire 70 year period.

"Scholar JW" claims that the interpretation is wrong about Jeremiah 25 in the Watchtower publications here:

*** ip-1 chap. 19 p. 253 par. 21 Jehovah Profanes the Pride of Tyre ***
Isaiah goes on to prophesy: “It must occur in that day that Tyre must be forgotten seventy years, the same as the days of one king.” (Isaiah 23:15a) Following the destruction of the mainland city by the Babylonians, the island-city of Tyre will “be forgotten.” True to the prophecy, for the duration of “one king”—the Babylonian Empire—the island-city of Tyre will not be an important financial power. Jehovah, through Jeremiah, includes Tyre among the nations that will be singled out to drink the wine of His rage. He says: “These nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.” (Jeremiah 25:8-17, 22, 27) True, the island-city of Tyre is not subject to Babylon for a full 70 years, since the Babylonian Empire falls in 539 B.C.E. Evidently, the 70 years represents the period of Babylonia’s greatest domination—when the Babylonian royal dynasty boasts of having lifted its throne even above “the stars of God.” (Isaiah 14:13) Different nations come under that domination at different times. But at the end of 70 years, that domination will crumble.

Finally, "scholar JW" has admitted that he disagrees with the Watchtower's interpretation here. It sounds like you disagree with the Watchtower's interpretation, too.

20 minutes ago, Arauna said:

But if you say it is about other nations also yes - then give the 70 years the other nations spent in exile.

See the quote from the WTS publication above. No individual nation had to spend 70 years in exile.

Also, how many years was it from the destruction of the temple by Nebuchadnezzar until the resumption of the foundation-laying for the rebuilding of the temple?

(Zechariah 7:5-7) . . .‘When you fasted and wailed in the fifth month and in the seventh month for 70 years, did you really fast for me? 6 And when you would eat and drink, were you not eating for yourselves and drinking for yourselves? 7 Should you not obey the words that Jehovah proclaimed through the former prophets, while Jerusalem and her surrounding cities were inhabited and at peace, and while the Negʹeb and the She·pheʹlah were inhabited?’”

The Watchtower chronology would make this period, too, around 90 years, and yet the Bible says it was 70. Who are you going to believe here, the Bible chronology or the Watchtower chronology?

*** pm chap. 14 pp. 234-236 pars. 1-6 Fasting over God’s Executed Judgments Improper ***
IS A TIME of prosperity the proper time for fasting? . . .
2 The time that the above questions came up was in the fourth year of the reign of King Darius I of the Persian Empire, or in the year 518 B.C.E. . . .
3 Now, when the question of fasting and mourning is raised, this time Jehovah answers by his prophet Zechariah. The prophet tells us: “Furthermore, it came about that in the fourth year of Darius the king the word of Jehovah occurred to Zechariah, on the fourth day of the ninth month, that is, in Chislev. . . .Zechariah 8:19.
6 The things commemorated by fasting down to the year 519 B.C.E., namely, the start of the siege of Jerusalem, the breaching of the walls of Jerusalem by the Babylonians, and the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple by the armies of Babylon, were all the execution of the judgments of Jehovah.

The Watchtower says those 70 years Zechariah spoke of would run from 607 to about 519/518 BCE, which would include parts of 90 sequential years. Yet the Biblical chronology (and the standard archaeological chronology) would make that parts of 70 different years from 587 to 518 BCE.

[Arauna]

On 12/25/2020 at 11:17 PM, César Chávez said:

won't sway my understanding by junior achievers, that they are.

My brother (with 5 degrees, and an  engineering company which employed many Harvard engineers) told me that people who cannot do the job - those are the ones who become 'scholars'.  My additional experience with working with many of them confirmed this statement.

I have also looked into many of the so-called biblical scholars who write the most ignorant hypothesis ..... and I have not been intellectually impressed. .......