SECULAR EVIDENCE and NEO-BABYLONIAN CHRONOLOGY (Nebuchadnezzar, Cyrus, etc.)

[scholar JW]

Alan de Fool

6 hours ago, AlanF said:

END OF QUOTATIIONS FROM EARLIER POSTS

So, Anna, it should be obvious by now that ScholarJW posed simple questions as a simple-minded trap of some sort, that all of us participants -- including he himself -- knew that all the others knew the answers to. That's why we refused, for awhile, to play his stupid game.

Now that JW Insider has given an extensive answer to ScholarJW's challenge ( https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/topic/88343-secular-evidence-and-neo-babylonian-chronology-nebuchadnezzar-cyrus-etc/page/42/?tab=comments#comment-152809 ), and ScholarJW has replied in such a way as to 'spring' his laughable trap, surely you can see how stupid his entire game has been. His comments about Darius are common knowledge among everyone qualified to comment on the material of this thread.

JW Insider again gave an insightful set of comments along these lines: https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/topic/88343-secular-evidence-and-neo-babylonian-chronology-nebuchadnezzar-cyrus-etc/page/42/?tab=comments#comment-152808

 

Boy, isn't scholar a naughty boy for making Alan so angry. It is interesting that it was not Alan F that finally provided the answer to my little test but JW Insider and it is only WT scholars that have provided such information using P & D as a source of reference.

scholar JW

[AlanF]

57 minutes ago, scholar JW said:

Alan de Fool

I accept fully the contents of the Insight book especially its articles on Chronology for these are scholarly and clearly written but I cannot be responsible for any deficiency on your part in understanding such information. WT scholars have used P& D in its publications from the time when it was first published so I do not believe there are any major issues except for the fact that it does not account foe the brief reign of Darius.

The Insight article under 'CYRUS' is of excellent scholarship and well balanced covering all factors that are relevant in the correct dating of the Return so there is no need to write to the Society at this time.

I simply affirm what is written in the above article which i believe fully answers your query. It is not known precisely when Cyrus made the public and written proclamation only that these two events occurred in his 'first year' but this is a bigger problem for you as you wish to compress matters too much.

scholar JW

Obviously you continue to lie, lie, lie, deny, deny, deny, and totally fail to justify yourself. You're a lot worse than even Mommy Watchtower.

[AlanF]

53 minutes ago, scholar JW said:

Alan de Fool

Boy, isn't scholar a naughty boy for making Alan so angry. It is interesting that it was not Alan F that finally provided the answer to my little test but JW Insider and it is only WT scholars that have provided such information using P & D as a source of reference.

scholar JW

Anna, if you read this, you can see in real time how this pathological liar piles lie upon lie upon lie.

[scholar JW]

Alan de Fool

The said scholar is a devotee to Mommy Watchtower just as you are a devotee to COJ!!!

scholar Jw

[Arauna]

11 hours ago, JW Insider said:

been felt from at least the time of the battle of Carchemish. 

Neb was at the battle of carchemish when he got the news his father had died. He went back to take kingship.   Secular dates do not match biblical sequence of history.  At this time Israel was still a vassal of Egypt. Jehoiakim  became a vassal to Babylon. He ruled 11 years  And later  zedekia replaced him.....he also ruled 11 years if I remember correctly..... so the secular dates for these events do not fit bible events.  So one has a choice: do I accept the bible chronology or secular chronology. Does secular chronology allow for all the biblical events to fit in? 

Biblical timeline : all bbiblical events fit in perfectly.... Secular timeline- does not make sense  because one has to argue and debate where  to slot them in.

Another point:  someone here on the forum spoke to me like a child to explain babylonian astronomy - which I may understand better than they do. . 

This person does not understand the reason why the babylonians were doing astronomy.  It had nothing at all  to do with science........ Astronomical observation  was not a science like today. They observed the stars that were visible studiously because it was the "religion". The observations were all based on superstition, spells and predictions.  This person is  ignorant of the  babylonian mindset.  I originally studied Sumerian culture (which was the basis of chaldean and assyrian thinking)  to understan the babylonian mindset. 

This is a trap that many scholars fall into. They get so involved in their own theory that they miss the "thinking" culture of the time period they are talking about. 

So a modern scholar can re-interpret some of the babylonian  "interpretations " of the skies and think it is solid - I would suggest caution in accepting this as solid evidence. 

[Ann O'Maly]

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

Another point:  someone here on the forum spoke to me like a child to explain babylonian astronomy - which I may understand better than they do. . 

You have yet to evidence your superior knowledge on the matter, Arauna. From what you wrote, you seemed to know very little.

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

This person does not understand the reason why the babylonians were doing astronomy.  It had nothing at all  to do with science........ Astronomical observation  was not a science like today.

I explained all that in my post and is the reason I put quote marks around the word 'science.' The Babylonians were committed and (for their time) expert sky-watchers. They recorded what they saw and tried to develop mathematical methods to predict what they would see in the future. This is proto-science, if you like. If you have done any reading or study of their practices, you should know this.

Anyway, astrology was intertwined with astronomy right up until the 17th or 18th century when the scientific method began to be formalized and they became separate disciplines. As I said before: to be a 'competent' astrologer, you had to be a competent astronomer. The Babylonians' superstitions and interpretations of celestial phenomena in no way negates what they observed. The sky doesn't lie. If the Moon or a planet was so many cubits from a certain star on a certain date, it can be checked and verified. What's so hard to understand about that?

[AlanF]

6 hours ago, scholar JW said:

Alan de Fool

The said scholar is a devotee to Mommy Watchtower just as you are a devotee to COJ!!!

scholar Jw

LOL at the projection here!

COJ is a friend, who if he dies, I will be saddened.

Mommy Watchtower is your god, with all that implies.

[Srecko Sostar]

17 hours ago, scholar JW said:

Our publications indicate that in relation to God's people Babylon became the World Power in 607 BCE with the overthrow of the Judean Monarchy.

This remind me on WTJorg interpretations about geographic relationship between God’s people Israel and Jerusalem as central place for worship, and their enemies and conquerors. The danger to Jerusalem, it seems, has always come from the "North."
God's WTJWorg central organization/place for worship is located in NY Headquarter. There is "JHVH spiritual throne" established in "parousia frame terminology" in 1919, so to speak . In the "North" position is Canada, Alaska and Greenland. I am "waiting" for "interpretations" about this significant momentum. Perhaps some "second fulfillment" is involved? :))

[AlanF]

10 hours ago, Arauna said:

Neb was at the battle of carchemish when he got the news his father had died. He went back to take kingship.   Secular dates do not match biblical sequence of history.

Yes they do. What you really mean is that secular dates do not match Watchtower history -- which demonstrably differs from biblical history.

10 hours ago, Arauna said:

At this time Israel was still a vassal of Egypt. Jehoiakim  became a vassal to Babylon. He ruled 11 years  And later  zedekia replaced him.....he also ruled 11 years if I remember correctly..... so the secular dates for these events do not fit bible events.  So one has a choice: do I accept the bible chronology or secular chronology. Does secular chronology allow for all the biblical events to fit in? 

Let's see if you manage a simple task: list the dates in question and the Scriptural and secular evidence for/against them. Of course, following your usual pattern, you won't.

10 hours ago, Arauna said:

Biblical timeline : all bbiblical events fit in perfectly.... Secular timeline- does not make sense  because one has to argue and debate where  to slot them in.

Nonsense. Once again it is Watchtower 'chronology' that doesn't fit.

10 hours ago, Arauna said:

Another point:  someone here on the forum spoke to me like a child to explain babylonian astronomy - which I may understand better than they do. . 

You've demonstrated repeatedly that you need to be spoken to like a petulant child.

10 hours ago, Arauna said:

This person does not understand the reason why the babylonians were doing astronomy.  It had nothing at all  to do with science........ Astronomical observation  was not a science like today.

Duh. That's because astronomy as such did not yet exist. Astrology -- predicting events based on the supposed connection between heavenly and earthly events -- was the motivation.

If anything, because astrology was religious in nature, Babylonian observers would have been all the more diligent in recording their observations. After all, when modern astronomers get something wrong, they only have to give an account to their boss. Babylonian astronomers had to give an account to their gods.

10 hours ago, Arauna said:

They observed the stars that were visible studiously because it was the "religion". The observations were all based on superstition, spells and predictions.

Wrong. You've got it ass- backwards, as usual.

10 hours ago, Arauna said:

This person is  ignorant of the  babylonian mindset.  I originally studied Sumerian culture (which was the basis of chaldean and assyrian thinking)  to understan the babylonian mindset. 

You studied history from about 2,500 years too early.

10 hours ago, Arauna said:

This is a trap that many scholars fall into. They get so involved in their own theory that they miss the "thinking" culture of the time period they are talking about. 

That's funny, coming from someone who can't distinguish the Sumerian culture of 3,000 BCE from the Babylonian culture of 500 BCE.

10 hours ago, Arauna said:

So a modern scholar can re-interpret some of the babylonian  "interpretations " of the skies and think it is solid - I would suggest caution in accepting this as solid evidence. 

Complete nonsense. Observations are observations, irrespective of the religiosity of the observer. The interpretations, if any, involve applying the observations to predicting earthly events. Again you display ass-backwards thinking.

[Arauna]

1 hour ago, AlanF said:

Watchtower history -- which demonstrably differs from biblical history.

I recently looked at the chronology again.  It cannot fit into the skewed secular dates.

1 hour ago, AlanF said:

Sumerian culture of 3,000 BCE from the Babylonian culture of 500 BCE.

The origin of the religion and use of the zodiac was the same.... nebuchadnezzar had his priests investigate livers and predict what he should do.  He had dreams which had to be interpreted...... superstition was just as rife as when the ziggurats first appeared. He went up in the ziggurats and slept with the priestess like the  other kings before him and he called his magicians and interpreters several times - as related in the bible.  

1 hour ago, AlanF said:

religiosity of the observer. The

Interpretations and superstitions  related to religion is important.  It shapes how people think and how they look for signs in the physical heavens.   Even in modern times people believe that the Christmas star was a good omen ...... that is ... if there was a star..... or something that looked like a star. 

 

[Arauna]

On 12/28/2020 at 7:10 PM, JW Insider said:

It's a zeal for God, just not according to accurate knowledge. We must always be learning.

I have only said that you are too smart for your own boots. Yes it is negative my comments - because your words are not leading people to jehovah but away from him..... so you obviously have an ego problem and love for yourself is more important than love for jehovah because you are causing confusion for others.  By the fruits you bear I know you.  

I had a lot of respect for you before but your deviations have become bolder and bolder.  So many teachings that you reject..... which are as clear as daylight. Being "nice" don't make what you say true. 

 

[AlanF]

Arauna said:

Quote

 2 hours ago, AlanF said:
Watchtower history -- which demonstrably differs from biblical history.

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I recently looked at the chronology again.  It cannot fit into the skewed secular dates.

Once again: PROVE IT.

Quote

  2 hours ago, AlanF said:
Sumerian culture of 3,000 BCE from the Babylonian culture of 500 BCE.

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The origin of the religion and use of the zodiac was the same....

So what?

Quote

nebuchadnezzar had his priests investigate livers and predict what he should do.  He had dreams which had to be interpreted...... superstition was just as rife as when the ziggurats first appeared. He went up in the ziggurats and slept with the priestess like the  other kings before him and he called his magicians and interpreters several times - as related in the bible. 

What does any of that have to do with the price of bread in Uruk?

Quote

  2 hours ago, AlanF said:
religiosity of the observer. The

Quote

Interpretations and superstitions  related to religion is important.  It shapes how people think and how they look for signs in the physical heavens.

So what? The only things the Babylonian astrologers recorded were perfectly normal things in the sky -- eclipses, positions of various bright objects, etc. No livers.

I challenge you again: how do those religious practices affect and/or distort the OBSERVATIONS these people made? Especially when they viewed making accurate observations as their sacred duty? What EVIDENCE do you have for your claims?

Quote

Even in modern times people believe that the Christmas star was a good omen ...... that is ... if there was a star..... or something that looked like a star.

So what? The Bible clearly says it was not a star but some sort of light moving around and guiding the Magi. The people who recorded the supposed incident certainly didn't say that it was an astronomical observation.

As usual you're just throwing out all manner of crap hoping something will stick.

Try thinking for a change.